The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Danyel Smith

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Author and top music journalist Danyel Smith discusses her newest book, Shine Bright: A Very Personal History of Black Women in Pop. Speaking to Quest' and Team Supreme, Danyel shares some fascinating bits from the book, memories from her time leading VIBE magazine, and anecdotes writing about Whitney Houston, Tupac Shakur, and Arrested Development.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. How are you guys? Steve, I realized in the last five episodes, you hardly said a word. Are you okay? Yes. There you go.

All right. Fonte, you're in a purple room now. All right, my fault. It's still the after effects of your studio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. I just, you know, I feel like I give y'all a little. a little ring light decor today

little YouTube makeup artist vibe. Oh, I got you. I got you. What's the tip we're getting today, sir? Today we're getting how to do winged eyeliner. Oh, okay.

And Alia, how's it going with you? Oh, it's going good. I'm on an island somewhere hoping my Wi-Fi don't shit on y'all. Hey. Nice. On vacation. Good to get.

Yeah, a little pre-op vacation. Yes. Yes. Okay, now I can introduce our guest. Our guest today is, of course, she's an award-winning author, novelist, journalist, magazine editor from the Yay Area. The Yay Area. I don't know. I don't even know if people in the Bay Area call it the Yay Area, but I'm going on a limb and calling it the Yay Area.

Like North Kakalaki. No one calls it North Kakalaki. Yeah, no one calls it that that lives here. except for the roots when they're on stage. I will say that I got to know and subsequently feared this woman when she was the first black editor-in-chief at the much-loved vibe magazine starting in 1994. I believe you replaced Alan Light, correct? I did in fact. Yeah.

I did affect replace, Alan. If ever you guys wondered why is Amir obsessed with journalists more than he's obsessed with his fellow peers in the music business, I will honestly tell you it starts with this woman. Because I only realized the power of the pin when it came from our guest today. She's released an awesome book. And if you're a fan of the show and if you're fan of just inside speak of music genre that you know and love, but things that you might not have known, I highly recommend you get Shine Bright, a very personal history of black women and pop where literally not only does she reveal her awesomely kind of adventurous journey and life. with her family coming up from the Bay Area, Los Angeles, and of course, living all over and navigating through music, but she even manages to break down and share stories of,

just intricate stories of artists that you love, but you really don't know about, like from the Dixie Cups to the Cherelles to, shit, I didn't even know Leontyne Price was related to. The Warwick, right? Yon Warwick and, you know, Sissy and Whitney Houston. and, you know, just draw on the parallels of how they, you know, those four generations between

Leon Dean Price and Cissy Houston and Deon Warwick and Whitney Houston, what they've done in breaking barriers for just basically progressing forward. But not to mention, you know, Diana Ross, name it, Gladys Knight, Donna Summer, Merlin McCoo, even. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Questlover Supreme, Daniel Smith. Thank you. Hey. Wow. How are you? Oh, oh, oh.

I mean, I'm doing good because I'm over here with y'all. So it just feels really good and really special. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Where are you speaking to us right now from where are you? From my home in Southern California, specifically in Venice, California. Hey.

Wow, nice. Okay. I didn't know. See, I didn't know if you were an East Coast or West Coaster. I mean, I'm, I feel pretty equally both over the course of my life at this point. I mean, I think I did 23 years on the on the east coast between most of it in in Manhattan, most of it in Brooklyn, some of it in Manhattan, some of it in Washington, D.C., but I'm back home in my in the in the great country of California. So it's

good to be here. Good to have you. Okay, so the thing is your shine bright book, it's almost like Jeopardy where your Shine Bright book in my opinion is almost like an episode of Questlove Supreme without us asking the questions you know so it's almost like if I were to go

well no literally she you know especially it's a good cheat sheet especially in the first chapter where you're breaking down your journey it's almost like I feel like it's disservice to even recap that. So I kind of want to take a different route with this episode than I would

normally do if you were a recording artist. And, well, you know, one, I want to just ask the obvious, why did you feel the need to construct this book and tell these stories? Why does you feel the need to sort of construct the story and the manner that you did? And why was it so long over? Well, let me answer the second question first. Why was it so long overdue? It's a combination of, on my part, timing, combination, add to that a lot of second guessing myself, add to that a little bit of fear, and add to that I hadn't quite figured out the best way to tell it. I just hadn't. I had to get to that place.

I had to get really strong, I think, a way that I hadn't felt probably, I don't know, in a half a decade by the time I finished Shine Bright. So it's all my fault. It's not my editor's fault. It's not anybody I interviewed. It's not their fault. It's my fault.

Just being uncharacteristically slow. and missing of deadlines, which... So this took you 10 years. Oh, no, let me tell you something. If my husband was here, he would say it took me eight. I feel like I've been writing it since I was eight years old, but I think technically it took me six years. All right.

You're speaking of your husband, the beloved Elliot Wilson. Y-in. Yeah. Why in the house? 17 years, 17 years. That's awesome. In hip-hop, that is it. Right?

Like straight up and down. I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, so it took me too long. I'm not going to lie. But, you know, it just, the timing was right. It was the reason why I wanted to do it is, you know, long story short, when Whitney Houston died in 2012, which she shouldn't have. But when she did die in 2012, you know, people approach me and said, could you just write a bio of her really quickly?

And, you know, let's go heavy on the drugs. Let's go heavy on the bad marriage. You know, I was just like, no. They would tell you that? Yes. In a sentence. In one sentence. Yes.

What? Oh, my God. Like what? Like, drugs. Bobby. Like, let's go. How fast can you get it done? And I was like, I'll have it to you on the 12th of never.

Like, I'm not doing that. So I came back to some folks with an idea about doing the history of Black Women in Pop. I sold that. And I was never finishing that. And then I left that publisher. And I went back home, so to speak. to Chris Jackson at one world. Chris Jackson published my, I have two novels

from the early 2000s, more like Wrestling and Bliss, that Chris Jackson published and so I wanted to go back home with him. One, because he's a genius, and two, because I trust him deeply. And he just said, you know, eventually he said, you're going to have to put yourself in the book. I'm eternally grateful to him for saying that.

And then I spoke to my sister, who's so much a part of Shine Bright, and my sister was like, are you asking me if you could tell my story? She was basically like, B-I-T-C-H, you should have been told it. So then we were off to the races. You know, at the top of the introduction,

you know, I was sort of tongue in cheek when I said that I loved and feared you only because I realized, I mean, for starters, you know, with the source and with vibe, and at least the first wave of late 80s, early 90s journalism, being sort of in a serious form and not just like, and this is not to take away from Cynthia Horner or Black Pete or Steve

Ivory or those guys. But, you know, there really hasn't been black critical writing. And although I've seen it with rock journalism, like I've never seen a takedown article or anything of that level from the black side of things. And, you know, you ran it very tight. Like your version of Vibe magazine, which I guess is 94, when did you leave Vibe? I started as, I started as music editor in 94.

I was there in 96. Went back to school for a year to 97, came back, got promoted to be the first black and first woman, editor-in-chief of Vibe in 97. I left in 99. Then I came back in 06 and was editor-in-chief of Vibe again, 06, 0-7-08. Two years, two years, every time. I would say that, you know, your era was way different. I noticed immediately your era from, say, Alan Light's period, I guess the treacher issue was, what, 91, I believe?

92. 92. 92 to 94. And not to say that, you know, because I'm friends with Alan, like, I'm not saying it was light in the ass, but I definitely saw a noticeable difference between both those issues. choose. And that said, I don't know in my mind, and I think this is often of how the world will see black women as, you know, we always use these words like strong, you will use fierce and all those sort of colloquialisms to describe them. And so I was a bit taken aback, you know, at how

vulnerable you got, especially in the first chapter, speaking of your imposter syndrome. and you like, you know, because it was kind of like, whoa, like you don't see a human side. Well, I mean, journalists often don't insert themselves or that sort of thing. So I was really just, I was pleasantly surprised of how you weave your life of music. Like I love those type of things, whereas not that I'm just learning a lesson of the artist, but I'm also learning the effect that it had on you because your writing career also had an effect on artist as well. I learned a lot from Alan.

Alan first gave me my first album review when he was editing the review section at Rolling Stone as my first Rolling Stone. Where was your first album? It was in vogue, the second album. Funky Divas? Yes. He gave me two stars. Yeah, I did it. I did it.

I didn't. Come on. I was a big homer at that time. If I'm not still just a big little homer. Come on, man. You know they were going to call me to do Ambo. Come on. You know, it's weird.

Okay, so. Two stars for real. That's real life, Daniel. Don't know. Don't listen. Don't listen to him here. No, I'm going to tell you something, Danielle. You can't, you can't debate me on this.

When I tell you, like, in the order of, I met a cat like Fonte will study emcees, study production, whatever. I don't know. Like, I study record reviews. I study journalists. Like, I study the people. that determine whether or not an album is going to have shelf life or not. I very much, no, here's the thing, though.

I actually agreed with you. I didn't realize that you were the one that wrote that. And to be fair, did I give it two stars? Well, I was going to say, to be fair, you don't determine how many stars it gets. I don't. The publication.

They do. The publishing. And by the way, that's always the case. That was the case at the source, too, and that was the case that Bible. We used to give our little red light, green light, yellow light, or whatever we used to do it by. The music editor determines it.

But yeah, I remember. Everybody doesn't know that, y'all. Y'all know that, right? I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm a fan. Hold on, I'm listening to what y'all saying. Hold on, I'm a fan. What you're saying is the person who wrote that whole review doesn't have anything to do with those stars.

Now, how, so how do they come up with them stars? The music editor. The music editor will determine it. Yes. So it's not even based on what you wrote. It's just based on what the music editor thinks. No, it's kind of based on what you wrote and it's based on whatever their taste is also. But, okay, so since you're kind of doing this in the 90s,

and I will say that, you know, post-KerrS-1, PM-Dornish confrontation levels, I mean, you worked at Vibe, where, and you worked at Vibe during one of the most dangerous issues of all time. I did. Which is the death row issue. Wouldn't your music editor at least want to give you warning if they're going to give it a less than savory rating,

knowing. I could never answer that question except for on a case by case basis, honestly. As you said, it was a very wild time. And when you say, you know, I worked that vibe during the most dangerous time during the death row issue, I mean, I really honestly have to look at the dates, one, because I blocked so much of that trauma out of my... 95. Oh, the mirror. Oh, I remember everything. I'm sorry. Because what I think people tend to forget, at least with me, is that it's especially with regard to death row and Tupac.

Tupac wasn't just celebrity MC for me. He's actually a good friend of mine from Oakland. And so I recused myself from a lot of the coverage of Tupac almost until after he passed. It was such a complex time at that time, such a time when I always say the vibe called upon the strongest part of me. And that it got it. It got it. It got it. And it did wear me out, which is.

is why, you know, your music editor for two years, at least talking about me, I'm music editor for two years, and then I get a fellowship and I go to Northwestern for a year because I just wanted out for a while. You know, I wanted out for a while. While I was gone, while I was in Chicago or in Evanston, both Biggie and Tupac were murdered while I was not even working at him. I ended up writing the obituary for Biggie for the Village Voice,

but I wasn't even working at that time. I was trying to. Okay. I wasn't. And then I came back in 97. Everybody had died. And I put Kirk Franklin on the cover because he was, number one with the stump remix. And I felt like that was the second line.

I felt like we had been mourning for a while. Right. We had thought that hip hop was going to die. We thought that everything that the mainstream had said about it was going to be true, that it was just a fad. It wasn't real. We was all going to kill each other. And then, you know, you began to feel it rising from its ashes.

You got to remember, like, that's when miseducation came out. Really, Lauren Hill doesn't get the credit she deserves for helping bring hip hop back to life after the death of Tupac Shakur and the notorious B-I-G. And then you add Kirk Franklin and Salt, they don't also get the credit either one of them for helping bring a hip-hop back to life. And that was actually my first cover as editor-in-chief of vibe was Kirk Franklin and the family. That's how I came back in 97 and believe me, my publishers, and the business people were like,

this is a soft cover, it's never going to sell, it's not going to sell, it's not going to sell. And I wasn't really that person that was always bragging about like, I know what the streets is filling. I was not always that girl. I'm very much a pop girl. Pop is in the title of my Shine Bright.

But it's like, I did know what the hell was going on. And I knew that there's no way that a song was going to number one R&B, I believe top 10 pop for the Stomp remix, and it wasn't like having a major impact on the culture. I also knew that because gospel never gets the credit that it's due for, its impact on culture, period. And there had never been a gospel artist on the cover of vibe.

That the gospel fans, the church folks, were going to go out and buy two and three issues. And they did. And they did. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience

that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the results. of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-O-Perset on the I-HartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Aren't people more or less investing in the vibe brand? Like, I'm going to buy a new vibe no matter what. Whoever's on the cover. Yeah.

Are you saying that there's time that's not true? That's not true. There are issues. There are issues of vibe that did not sell. There are issues on there's there's a thing like this. You have a you have a subscriber base. That's your small money. But that's your loyalists.

They keep they keep up paying that 1399 a year, 1299 a year. Yeah, that's what's keeping your lights on. That's keeping the lights on. But the money money is that the newsstand back when the newsstand mattered. Because that's $253 a pop. whether you're buying it at

Bond Safeway Key Food, Barnes & Noble back in the day, Walden Books or whatever That's where the money was And that's an impulse buy And that's what I was judged on That's what any editor-in-chief really is judged on The end of the day. Period.

End of story. So to imply anything different But kind of lessen the work that you put into figuring out who you was going to put on this cover and the content. No, you don't even know it was science. And the thing about me was not everybody took Billboard into consideration. I took Billboard into consideration because I had been R&B editor of Billboard.

Did you replace Nelson when he left or? No, it was Janine McAdams that I replaced. Geneet McAdams. Oh, wow. I didn't know. Yes, Janine is between us. So, yeah, no, I was a person that always took Billboard into consideration because I worked at Billboard. And because even before I worked at Billboard, I studied Billboard like a maniac, which is why I got the job at Billboard.

Billboard. But it's like, no, I was the one that was like, if it's bubbling under, it deserves this. If it's doing this on the charts, if it's number eight with a bullet on blah, blah, then it deserves this. Now, people always wanted to argue with me and we had the best arguments in the world if I, but I was one who always took Billboard into consideration. Not everybody's like that. Wow. I think, by way, can I just say this too? I think it's so crazy that I just learned right now that y'all thought every issue of five sold when I got to vibe as a music editor

we didn't think that I thought that oh no I thought you were just asking the question I thought you were asking the question of me like was it the brand that sold I mean it's just like the circle I hang out with its vibe in the source was like a religion and no straight up yeah thank God for y'all but we were the ones keeping the lights on though we weren't

the impulse buys right it's just like podcast It's just like music, right? Like, come on. We want new podcast. Okay, so can I ask you this because I didn't know this? First of all, what is expected for vibe in terms of going platinum? Like how many issues have to sell for your, whoever the higher ups are at the publishers to say, hey, they're doing well? It depends on the year.

It depends on the year. because, you know, magazines, you know, magazines are pretty much gone now for all intents and purposes. There's not really a newsstand that you can depend on. But let's just say at the height of things, it's always a percentage. It's not an exact number. So at the height of vibe, you just never really want to be below 50%. 50,000? Oh, percent.

50 percent. And you figure your circulation, like at my, the height of the circulation. for me, man. I got a vibe up to, I don't know, 8, 900,000. So you want to, you want to sell through at 50 plus percent. Now, that's high,

but I have ego. That's B plus. The best selling issue of vibe in history is the master P issue, make them say, wait, what? I hate to blow y'all up. No, I can't.

That makes it. I hate to. Now the South is buying. Because now the South Carolina, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. You know, I would have put my publishing in my cribs. I could have sworn that that death row issue was the greatest selling issue of all time. The thing about the make them say, it was a, it was a perfect cover.

Wow. It was everybody. It was Mia X. It was mystical. It was everybody. No limit. And we had a tank in it. We had a tank.

remember. And everybody had on camo. And so basically the whole cover was green and shades of black and white. But we did what's known as a fifth color in the magazine business, which means basically a fluorescent or a glitter. And we made the orange fluorescent. Yeah, I remember the orange. That episode left off. I remember.

It left off. I'm not going to say how many issues P bought, but because the world would never know. The world will never know, but it was huge. And you got to remember, too, Master P has a huge contingence of fans in the Bay Area, too, out from Richmond. That's where he started. So he was all over. Yeah. So that's really the biggest selling issue.

I would never say the lowest issue because it's people that we all know and love, but it would surprise you. I would never say. Come on. Y'all going to have to get that someplace else, man. It's 20 years ago. It's too. 20 years. It feels like yesterday to me, though.

I feel like I'm on my way to an editorial meeting right now. Y'all ain't going to get me out here like this. Ah, damn it. Now I'm going to go. I literally have all my issues in the room. Now I'm going to go back to see it. If I text you, you got to verify it. I will, I will.

But I can't because it's like it's mean, man. And it doesn't necessarily sometimes even have to do with the person. It's tiny. It could be the photography. It could be anything. It just doesn't necessarily. It could be the truck was late. man.

Oh, please tell me what it was. No, you're going to get it for me. No, because, and you talk about you, fear me. You see how easy. I'm scary. I'm scary. Like, I can't say that. That's so mean.

What if I just said, yeah. It's not mean, spirit. It's facts in business. This particular MC has the lowest selling issue in the history of vibe. That's hardcore. It must be J-Z. Yeah, it won't be, yeah. It's definitely not, Jay.

I will say it from the South, though. Just to show you how things change. Is it somebody who still has a career? Are they considered a legend still? Do they have a career or do they just have a career? Do they have a career? Do they have a career? Yeah.

They have a career, but they don't necessarily have a career in rapping. Okay. All right, got it. Anyway, so I do want to know what was the first or at least national? Well, you said that Rolling Stone was the very first time that your work appeared in. A national magazine. I would say no, that's not the case. I would say the first time I had a national story.

Was in Spin Magazine. There was a column there called Dreaming America. Yep. That was my first national thing. And I always remember that I couldn't believe I was getting paid a dollar or word. Was that standard or was that like? That was standard for mainstream. People don't even get that now.

And it's like, how? I was, no, listen, you used to be able to make a living as a writer. It was very difficult to do so now. Even in the Bay Area, I was getting 10, 15, 20 cent a word. If I wrote a 1,500 word piece, I was getting $150. But when, when, and Craig Marks, he's actually the music editor of the LA Times right now. Craig was music editor of Spend back then. And when he said it was a dollar a word and 800, 800 words, I'd.

just remember thinking. So that's pretty much rent in Oakland back then. And I felt like, I felt like back then. And I felt like I could stay in this. I could stay in this. But yeah, I wrote, I think my first

one was about a yo-yo. Okay. Yes. Black Pearl forever. Yeah. I wrote about DJ Quick for Spin, who's also a favorite still. And then it was out of those

spin clips and a couple of things I did for the Village Voice that brought me to the notice of Allen Light and Anthony Day Curtis at Rolling Stone. And then I was only really R&B editor at Billboard for like six or eight months, something to outline and shine bright. But then vibe launched and Alan had gone over there as music editor. And when he was promoted to editor-in-chief, because Jonathan Van Meter left, then Alan asked me to come over as music editor. It was a wild two years in that job.

I always thought Spinn was the weird cousin to Vibe magazine. I always thought they were weirdly related. Like they had some kind of similar ownership or something like that. I mean, at the beginning we didn't. But then like in the, I guess, late 90s, 2000s, yeah, we were owned by the same company and we were in the same building. What was the company? Vibe Ventures. Oh, so, okay, they owned their own.

Vibe Ventures owned Vibe and Spin. And Blaze. at that time too. Ah, Blaze. Man, I forgot about Blaze. What was their focus, y'all? What was they thing? The Blaze battle.

It was mainly just primarily hip-hop, but I remember. Blaz was like pre-complex. Yes, it was. Really with good journalism, though. It was, it was. Jesse Washington was the editor-in-chief. I was the editorial director. Jesse Washington is actually at ESPNZN defeated now.

Okay. Yeah, we had our illmatic rating moment with Blaze, like, Things fall apart, like got a perfect five rating there. And the Jay-Z issue. A mere be monitoring these reviews. He's about that. He's about that life. I'm not that way now, but, you know.

It does my heart good, though. It does my heart good to know that somebody of your stature and talent and genius is paying attention like that because we really tried. Like, we weren't up there, like, fooling around. Like, we were about passion, but we were about rigor. We were about facts. and we were about deep and strong opinions. We were about design, photography.

We're about fashion style, all of it. And so the fact that you, being you, were paying attention that heart, honestly, it does my heart good. And anybody that listens to this that used to work at Bob DeSource XXL, any of it, rap sheet, all of it. Honey. Honey. All of it.

Oh, man, honey. It matters. I mean, I could take it to Ego Trip. I could take it to One Nut Network. I could take it to. King. 4080, I can keep going. Like, I can keep going.

The fact that any of us that worked in those spaces were being paid attention to, that our work was being monitored or enjoyed or even, it matters a lot to us. Look, all right, so the deal is, I think in that prince issue, if you guys remember the prince vibe issue, the prince vibe issue. Yes. There's a write-up for Zingalamudy. a lot that single-handedly like if you want to know the beginning of Questlove's micromanage era of like I must write all the liner notes I must know I must do all the interviews I must like no article

ever scared me more and the thing is is that you know now I live in an era where you know I mean you know, I read the New York Times now and just read like this year, everyone's celebrating the fact that New York Times gave like 11 Madison a two-star review, which is like, soccer or, you know, I mean, there's been like sort of like crazy reviews like Miles Davis is on the corner for Downbeat Magazine. Like throughout history,

you know, it's different now because in the internet, I sort of feel like artists write for each other. Like, hey, check this out. You know, that sort of thing, like when they're really going to go. but to me when I read your Arrested Development

Zingalama Duni feature to me that was like it was literally like watching the Apocalypse now documentary or Amir Amir is also known for good hyperbolic quotes no but it's it was it wasn't even

you didn't even have to do anything you didn't it wasn't a take down from your point of view. Like literally speech was kind of sleep at the will and the entire band decided they're going to do a mutiny in this article. And at that point, I realized like, oh, man, a career could be made or

or dead it in one fell swoop with just one article. Turning point for me. Okay, so long story, I guess long story short. It's like, I didn't even work at Byb at that point I was functioning as a freelance writer, but I had a reputation in the business for being on point, on time, and thorough. And more than that, I had written a piece for a magazine that doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for years, called Request Magazine that you used to be able to get at Tower Records. Okay.

Yes, I love a request. It is a great magazine. And if you count that as national, which I do. don't always just because it was given away for free ad tower and you didn't pay for it. But that was probably really my first national look was in request. So I did a cover story on Arrested Development when they launched. Okay. Okay.

So it was great. Man, you're talking about Tennessee. You know what I mean? You're talking about all of that. I fell in love with them, man. I fell in love with them. They fell in love with me. It was a cover story.

And this is back before I had been in the business long enough to realize it's not always wise to fall in love with groups. And it's not always wise to allow groups to fall in love with you. I didn't know. I was a child. I was in my early 20s, mid-20 something like that. I didn't know. You live and learn. So then when their second album is coming out, it was EMI.

Am I right? Yeah. So the woman who was a publicist there was like, hey, you know, vibe is doing this thing. Do you want to, you know, go back and talk to speech and everybody in the group? Yes, definitely. I was freelancing too. It was just like, it sounds exciting.

You'll send me to Atlanta. So I went down there, and my first conversation was with speech as it should be. And I have a lot of respect for him. But you could tell from the moment that I got in the car with him, that things weren't okay with the group. And it seemed like something he didn't want to get in. into detail about, but you know, as a reporter, I have my instincts, I have my feelings. And so when I began to talk to the other members of the group.

And you were allowed to? Yes, this was a different time, y'all. There was no internet. I will never let Kamal do an interview. Oh, there. Ain't no evidence. Come on knows that shit. And what's so wild, though, it was like, at a lot.

a certain point, I wasn't even going to people to talk to them. People were coming to me. Yeah. Listen, I remember that group so well, man. And it's heartbreaking to me because there's such a like, the music isn't necessarily always so like wildly optimistic. But it's just like I've been around public enemy. Those are my guys.

They're not the most optimistic group of brothers. You know what I mean? They're not. But the group of rest of development, they came back. They were taking us back to the south. Like, they were reminding us of our roots. Black join. Yeah.

Every day. Everything was like, you know, the blood and the dirt. Like, we was all in there, the red cliques. Like, we was all in it. Like, everybody from the northeast used to go back south in the summertime. Like, all of that feeling was there. But then, you know, I remember that DJ's name was Headliner, right? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. He set it off. Dion Ferris. I was I was going to ask you about Dion. Yeah, it was Dion. It's coming back. It's coming back. It's coming back. All right. Okay. And, you know, things just weren't going well. It's so hard. And I know Questla knows this. Hard to keep a band together. Anything else. It's like, it's hard to keep a band together. And it's like, it's hard to keep a band together. And you could ask the Supreme's. You could ask anybody to come. It's like, it's hard to keep a band together. Yes. And everybody was mad. and everybody's talking into the tape recorder. And they let her know.

I went, if you remember Ursula Smith, who was my publicist at the time? At Set to Run. I set to run. No, no, no, no. She left Set the Run and started her own, I forget, her and Amy Mars had their own thing. And I came in the following Monday, like, shake it in my boots because I was just like, oh, man, like, they're done with. They're over with. And if they're that easy to get, like, what does that mean for us?

No, but. And Ursula, like, the amount of talking me off the ledge for like two days straight. Because I don't know. In my mind, I just felt like arrest development had reached the mountaintop. They reached the mountain top back. They had. Yeah. Yeah, that De La tribe.

Like, a lot of those acts couldn't get to. But they didn't come up together, though, right? Like, did they come up together like that? All of their? Yeah, I mean, 91. I had what a lot of other groups like that didn't, which was speech had mad ambition. Everybody doesn't come with mad ambition. Some people just want to make a record and get it out there.

Some other people have mad ambition and speech had that. It was a very difficult piece to write, a very difficult piece to publish. It was fact check and went through the lawyers and went through all of that. And it was very difficult to publish. And guess, the publicist was wildly mad at me. Some in the group were wildly mad at me. and the group were so happy and grateful to me. Some were very good.

Deion. Some were grateful to me. But I just want to say as, well, it just basically outlined that the group was not happy and was probably not going to stay together. Gotcha. Okay. Check it out. Fonte. I don't know.

Have you read Maurice White's autobiography? I have not yet. I mean, it's kind of the structure where, wait, we just recently did. an interview with someone came in I think it was Larry Blatman said Larry Blatman said it was a democracy

what do you call it dictatorship uh yeah it's like a it's like a democracy dictatorship where I guess it's the I think it's the

idea of hey we're community where all these things but really I mean the decision falls on one person that person's speech Same about Bon Jovi. A lot of groups like that. Earth went and fire too, right? Like Mori's.

So that's what I'm saying with the Earth Wind and Fire book. No, not even with that. I mean, Marys White, I mean, Philadelphia went into heavy with, oh, okay, Maris is sort of the estate of Earthwood and Fire. We're just people for hire.

And as I'm certain that you know, Fonte, you know, as an artist about being blue collar, like often we get in this game because we you know we we see these slow motion hype william shots and it's like ah we get our Bentley moment and it never happens that way and um it's just that this time headliner was just mad about his money mad about like the situations but it was very much like had you know the rest of the band was explaining how unsatisfied they were with the situation that they were in. I remember.

But I could see how it could have an effect on you as it had an effect on a lot of people, that piece because, one, it said that vibe was going to do stuff like that. That's the first thing. Black people never seen something to that level. No, because this is the thing.

Because the media that is considered to be ours, right? Ebony Essence, you know, to the black newspapers that came out of reconstruction all the way up through the 50s and the, through the civil rights movement and everything else. Like, the reason that these things came to be is because we were treated so unfairly by the mainstream media. Or we were just erased or not even considered, you know.

You would talk about music in a certain town and you would just talk about all the white artists and never talk about the black artists. You would talk about all the male artists and not talk about the women artists. So it's like, vibe existed in a... a space of like, well, of course, this is going to always be a place of celebration. But the thing that I always did learn from Quincy Jones is that Vibe was to be a place of celebration and interrogation, that no one would trust us on the celebration if we didn't also do the interrogation.

Ooh. And so I felt supported by Quincy, by Allen, in doing that. And honestly, it was a very difficult. piece for me to write, for the, for the magazine to publish. And also it, it set the industry back on its heels a bit. That it's like, we love I, but you just don't know. You still got to be good. You just don't know. Yeah. And so to some, that was great because it meant that we weren't like a pamphlet or we weren't just like, it meant that we were more fluff. It wasn't. You just more fluff. Yes. You got to remember one of the first pieces, and Bob, I think it's in the Tresh issue, right? The test issue in which Tretch was on the cover. And there's a big piece by the great Scott Poulson Bryan. Nephew. And the headline is one for all time about Sean Combs. The headline is, this is not a puff piece.

Right. Right. So it's something. So many meaning. So many meanings. And so we were always on that, even with all the devil's, throw stuff. It's like, are, you know, people were like, are you guys contributing to it? It's like, are we, but are we reporting as any other culture would report on its culture? And is that also new and different for the black and multicultural audience, a vibe to, to hear and see? So it was, it was very hard. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an, and escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness,

fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For most black women at some point, you feel that protector moment where you're like, you know, do you have to fight that protector moment and go, with more your journalistic mind, or does that not even ever come into your head? There's this, and it's funny, because I was like, I wonder if she writes in this. I haven't gotten to that point

if you write about this and shine bright. But I was like, you know, that protector moment where you go, this could maybe hurt this feeling, you know, so maybe I won't do that. Did you ever have that moment? I have that moment every day of my career. Okay, okay.

I couldn't tell by looking at your face. I was like, am I saying something boring? No. Okay. Every day of my career, and especially as editor-in-chief of vibe, it's even different as being editor of Billboard. Talk about that. Why? It's a trade magazine.

It's all genres. I got to know about what's going on in country, classical, adult contemporary, bubbling under. I got to know about what's going on everywhere. What's going on with pop singles, pop albums. I got to know R&B this, R&B that. I got to know what's going on in Latin music. I got to know what's going on globally. Like I got to know what's going on everywhere and make decisions based on all of that.

But, you know, when you're at vibe, you're covering black culture for a for a black and multicultural audience. It's not even used to being covered all the time with rigor and passion. It's like, it's like even like in history, if you look at Ebony at the very beginnings of Ebony, it's like James Baldwin and everybody's in there. It's a different situation. But then to me, due to pressures from the community, It just became more and more like you can always expect good and proper news from Ebony. Until that Cosby issue. Well.

No, no. Hats off to Keirner for that. Yes. That's the first time that I've ever seen. And Karen is from what generation? The hip-hop generation. Yes, exactly. Yes.

And so that's what I'm saying. It just, it's hard. You know, it's hard when I can think of even small things. Like I remember I interviewed Wesley Snipes for the cover of Vy. That's my first vibe. of her. Yo, I remember that issue. That's a great issue, man.

My mom drove me to his house in Venice. He was going through it. And also, that movie wasn't good. Which one was it? It was demolition man. The blonde hair. The blonde hair. I remember that issue.

It was a hot mess. And the movie, the film was, but Wesley himself wasn't and it never has been. So to me, he's one of the more underrated. He's actors. the history of cinema. Like, he's so good. I'm not saying he's made all the proper moves and all of that. But my thing is, how do you, how do you say that?

But then, like, how do you say... Frame it in a way that's not. How do you say that? And that's the work for me. That's the work in Shine Bright for me. Like, how do I talk about Whitney Houston's mom? Sure. You handle that awesomely, by the way.

Oh, thank you. who to me is just like she's so important to the history of American pop. Like she literally trained Whitney Houston. She literally sang behind Elvis Presley. She literally sang behind Bam Morrison, Jimmy Hendricks, everybody. And it's like she literally contributed to the vocal arrangements for all of this big pop. And she trained Whitney at the same time she just didn't accept her daughter for who she was. Yo, and can I just say on that note, it's so funny you say that because as we're going through all these different lenses and filters,

for people these days. When it comes to the music business, I find it harder and harder to apply those filters if you really want the true story about things or you really want to talk to people. Like, if we really, I mean, we've had these moments where, you know,

even talking to me and a mirror and Jake will talk about people and we'll be like, yes, they were significant. They are historical. These conversations should be had. However, but this little thing had happened. And so I'm so curious, Danielle, how you navigate that.

Like, because even, in a situation like, I can't even say names because you feel guilty, but no man who was doing business in the 60s, 70s, and 80s is fucking straightforward. It has no shit with them, basically. There's no man.

There's no man. So how do you like navigate that? That's, it's just... Well, I don't think council culture was a thing then. You know what I mean? Right. As much as it is now. Yeah. I guess that's why journalists get paid less

unless they can hardly write. Right. Well, it's also because artists have so many other avenues and we should tell their story. It used to be that the only place that you had to run. They're going on IG Live, no. Yeah, you just go on IG Live. You can go right to your Twitter feed, your IG feed. And some of that, I have to say I am not mad at.

Like, I miss. Even if it's to the detriment of your... Do I miss it? Yes. Do I miss being like, you have to go through vibe. Essentially, you got to go through me and my cohort. Yeah. Right.

Right. So do you miss that feeling of like, oh, my God, yeah, this is, we're vibe. Yeah, of course. But, you know, to everything there is a season, we were needed for that at that time. We were desperately needed. But I can just give you an example. So I'm doing this, I'm doing this, this picture me doing. a talking head moment for a Michael Jackson documentary.

Okay, thank you. Come on. Yes. And so, no, and not even to get into the complexities of Michael's situation, but just to say this, just to talk about the Internet part of it. Yeah. So the person that's directing or asking me, the question says, don't you just find the Internet to be totally overwhelming and ridiculous?

Like, you can just put Michael Jackson's name into Google search bar, and then like 8 million pictures come back about Michael Jackson, 12 million stories, headlines, everything in the world is just so overwhelming and terrible. Isn't that just cheapening Michael's legacy this and the third? And I was like, not actually I don't because, see, I grew up a Michael Jackson fan. And I couldn't find anything about Michael Jackson. When I'm 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 years old, and all I wanted to know about was Michael Jackson, if I didn't have Cynthia Horner's write-on magazine,

what really would I have? Right. I said, I was insatiable. When you're 13-year-old as a fan, oh, my God, I was insatiable, and I couldn't find anything. And I told him, I said, so I actually feel flush, man, with joy that I can put Michael Jackson's name into a Google search

and just see every million, even if the news is bad, even if the news is ugly. I said, I would rather that than to have, like, to be searching and thirsty to know something about my favorite one. Yes. So that's why. Can I ask the question? All right. I was going to ask you what was the hardest issue for you to execute?

However, I wanted to take a wild guess. How hard was that Michael Jackson issue to put together? What year was, you know, but I mean, what year was that? Was I there? 95. Michael Jackson was on the cover. of Vibe magazine dressed very uncharacteristically. He was dressing, I think a Kadada had dressed him in Tommy.

Tommy Hilfiger. He'll figure. Wait, you don't remember this, Fonte? I don't remember. He had a Kanga on. He got a Kanga. Google Vibe Michael Jackson cover. I remember it.

I remember it. Wait a minute. Let me take me into my memory. Whoever just looked it up, what are the cover lines on there? Read them. Michael makes history. The King of Pop strikes a pose, easy ease, final days, notorious BIG, smokers, smokes Cali into the Wu-Tang Clan with, oh, I can't read the name.

So then, uh, oh, well, Bones Malone, duh, Bones Malone. That was, uh, 95. We barely have any memory of that except for EZE. Damn, that's a flex. That's a flex. Like, oh, Michael Jackson, I don't remember that shit. What do you remember about EZE? What do you remember about the easy interview?

This is easy. Well, this is, oh, this is post-E-He-Hed died. Final days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what that was a, that's what, that's what, that's what I remember about that, about that particular issue. Because not any probably, so I'm music editor. I just remember that, well, one, I just remember that it was, uh, you remember I'm from the Bay Area. So I've been knowing about dealing with AIDS probably in a closer proximity than a lot of people.

It was very entwined in our lives. And so I don't know. The tragedy of that, man. And I will say this. I'm not even the biggest easy e fan but just as a human being and it was just too much and also the way hip hop was dealing with it

was crazy that's what I really remember most about that and I also remember just not liking the cover image or the design which is rare for me which is rare because it doesn't really even look to me like a classic vibe cover which we were very meticulous about on most issues but you also got to believe too.

Again, I don't know even if I was in those conversations, but I do know this. If Michael Jackson was involved, then Michael Jackson had probably had a final say on what the cover looked like. Because you understand, too, and in that era, Quincy Jones had a lot more to do with the day-to-day

than he did by the time I became properly editor-in-chief. I don't know. I just was always just on the impression. It's like, okay, he started, this magazine and I'll see y'all later oh but but he was day to day no he was he was he was not day to day but he was like if it had something to do with something that quincy had something to do with then mr. Jones was involved absolutely I don't know I don't know if I talk about it and shine bright but my first experience so I did her Franklin and then let me not get

my dates mixed up, but I feel like I was called to the phone, and I was told that Quincy was on the phone with Joe Jackson because it was, Janet had an album coming out. And so we needed to get that together. And I was on the phone with Quincy. And he is, they've known each other since the dawn of time. And I was a sitting editor-in-chief, and I was just like, why am I even on the call? Hello? And they were just, yeah, just hash and stuff out. And then I was like, they asked me like, who should the writer be? They asked, I think Joe asked Quincy that. And then Quincy finally said, Danielle, like, this is your mom.

Like, speak up. Like, this is your area or whatever. Oh, the velvet roof cover. Yes. And I was like, well, you know, I think it should be me. And they were like, Joe. was like, really? Why?

And I said simple reasons. I said because I saw her perform at the Circle Star Theater at San Carlos California when I was eight years old for my birthday. So I probably had the longest relationship with her out of anybody here, but y'all. And then also we're both really pretty much the same age. We're both really black California girls at the end of the day. And, I mean, we could go through the catalog thus far. we could go back to Dream Street if you want to.

We could do what you want to do. And so that's when Joe said it would seem like you should be the person. Wow. I mean, I probably, my voice was a little bit more shaky back in those times. Let me not act like I was coming with all the, like the, all the full confidence. But it's just when Quincy Jones shoots you to Rondo pass. It's like you better just act like Kevin Garnett. Yeah.

Be prepared. Right. Yeah. So for Shine Bright, what was probably the most surprising? revelation and constructing this. And also, was there anyone that you had to leave on the side of the road that you wanted to include? The most crazy thing to me about Shine Bright

is just how much music comes out of segregated times. Oh, my God. It's just never would just cease to amaze me. And you keep thinking that as the decades go by that it's going to be different, and then it just isn't. I mean, even if it's like somebody from younger than me who got bust, you know what I mean?

And from a segregated situation, and I think people don't just talk about that enough. Like everyone just acts like, we're just all out here going to school together and, you know, being friends together and out of that comes multi, out of that multicultural stew comes this amazing thing called pop. Well, no. Well, absolutely not. So that was, the fact that it just kept coming up,

and I just got to be very nosy about it too. I wanted to know the details of. And I'm like, so you're on the back of the bus. What's going on? Yeah, when you was talking to the Dixie Cubs, at one time it seemed like one of his sisters was like, okay, Danielle, let me just answer all your questions because. They were like serious.

No, but they got, they really, at first they were like mad at me. And then they really had to say, you really don't know, though. because the fact that you dropped after that was something that I didn't know. You said the thing about the screen. The screen. I thought it was a metaphor. I didn't know.

It was a real screen. Like an actual real hard screen. With peg holes. Like it had pegs on it. And then there were holes in the back of each seat. And you could just move it and just put the screen up in the pegs. And they made the black person do it. So basically there's a part in telling the Dixie Cup story,

which their single was going to the chapel. Big single. Number one single. Right. So there, I guess you can say the real first reign of, of, I don't want to see some corny like black girl, no, but, yeah, I want to be poor. They bump, they bump, let me do.

Like, they bump, love me do out of number one. So. The Dixie Cups is going to the chapel. Yes. You know, they're the first black group to hit number one. Yes. And so she starts with them. And they're telling a story about just, segregation and busing and whatnot.

And the fact that customers and bus riders would often tell, and I'm saying tell very lightly, black people to move to the back of the bus and they were put a, I guess there was a disposable screen that you could put up to divide. Yes, a movable screen. A movable screen to divide. It should have been at the same regulated place. I always thought that's no, okay, so this is the thing. that is what I thought. I always thought, and this is how you know that segregation never really gets discussed in detail.

And I am committed always to not talking about black people or black women in summary, but in detail. Because this is my thing. I always imagined that the bus was kind of split into like two, like into thirds. And that the white people had the first two thirds. And then the black people have the area like from the back door of the bus on. Right. Right. But see, no, this is what's crazy.

They moved the goalposts essentially. The more white people that got on, the smaller the black area would get because this screen was movable. And I asked Rosalie Hawkins and Barbara Hawkins, I was like, so when would it be the driver or the people? And she said, whichever. And then I said, would they ask you nicely? Or were they mean? Or were they mean? Like, and this is in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Oh, New Orleans. That's right. And I told her, I said to her, I know I'm asking stupid questions, but I literally don't know. Don't know. And she said, well, then I will tell you the way they asked depended on the way they woke up that morning. And I said, we don't know how segregation really was functioning. Mm-mm. It wasn't separate but equal.

It wasn't separate but equal. It was really. going to the museum only on Tuesday mornings when black people were allowed and stuff. Like it was really, there's a thing. I write about my grandmother telling me one time, my God, and we all know about these black nights. I'm here. You know, we do.

The way my grandmother was just like, oh, my God, you know how conceited you are as a girl when you're like 19 or 20 and you think you're cute? And you're really in the mirror and you really get that mascara right. This is before lashes. And you're really, the pre-lash era. And you're really, what your mabelin getting right? And your grandmother is irritating you because your, your tight, your top is too tight and your skirt is too short. So my grandmother is really giving me that look like, so where are we going?

And I was like, I'm going to this spot. Grandma is, it's like, Thursday nights or Tuesday nights or whatever it was. And she was like, oh, okay, where is it? I said, Grandma, it's just at this cool spot. like all the black people in Oakland get together. Like, it's really weird. It's organic. It's just like we all just hang out there.

And it's just so cool. It's like a lounge and drinks. It's amazing. She said, okay, where is it? And I told her the place. She said, oh, I know that place. Because my grandma, this born and raised in Oakland. I said, Grandma, you could not know the place.

Like, you're 100. I'm 20. Like, stop, grandma. I love you, but no. And she said, ma'am, listen, we used to go to that place. And if it wasn't that place, it was owned by the same people. And the thing is, we went there because that was the only night that we were allowed to go to that club. It wasn't, it was like Tuesday nights.

So we all had to get up to go to work in the morning on Wednesday. So we just had to go on Tuesday and on Saturday and Sunday on Friday and Saturday when, when that's the normal time for people to party was only white people that were allowed in there. So that's why she's like, yes, that's why it's organic. Mechanically on a Tuesday. That is black night. And so my grandma, I was like, I couldn't even have a good time at the set anymore. I'm like, I'm living.

What? You blew my mind with that because I was like, that's nationwide. There's always a black night. It's always on a week night. Black night is always on a week night. you're you're right about that and yeah when i love writing about i love writing about like i said specifics and i like writing about culture and i like writing about something anne powers who's ahead of music at npr and um was music editor at s f weekly and i became music editor of s fweekly

san francisco weekly right after anne and and really hand held me into that job and something that Anne taught me was, this is back in the 1999, 1991, 1992. She said, no one's writing about, people are writing about hip-hop as a music. No one's writing about the scene. And what the scene is like. And I was enraptured by that. And I still am. I still am. I take notes in my head on a pad

or on my notes app. When I'm out, just because the scene matters, it matters, it's culture. And that Tuesday night thing is the scene. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So in your history, what will you say is your three definitive pieces of work? One of the most important pieces to me and one that continually gets good notice from people is the piece that I wrote as the forward to the collection of essays about Tupac Chalkour

that I put together in a book called Tupac Chacore. And you can find it at just Google New York Times, Daniel Smith, Tupac Chacore. and it's about a 4,500 word piece that basically just takes his career and life into consideration. And so that is one for me. The second one is from much later in my career. Six years ago, I think now I wrote a piece for ESPN, the magazine about Whitney Houston singing the national anthem at Super Bowl.

I just really felt like, and my editor really felt like, and in fairness ESPN really felt like it hadn't really been written about at the intersection of culture, sport, and just like American history. I put so much work into that Whitney Houston piece, and it paid off. And won awards. Like, it's really one of my favorite pieces,

probably that I ever wrote. And, you know, I think I'm very smart in that piece. Can you give a summary of that? Because I'm curious. It's just very about Whitney Houston in putting the entire country on her back because war had just been declared.

This was in the pre-security era and Super Bowl was a soft target. I wrote about everything. I wrote about what was going on with the war. I wrote about what was going on with the NFL commissioner. I wrote about her pre-recording the song. I wrote about the...

I covered her performance in a second by second's way. I covered every single seconds of her performance. And that's what I wanted for my conclusion. And that's what we have. had and I just talk about her at the end just, you know, with the, what do they call it, the fighter pilots or whatever, the jet planes or whatever, the military planes going over her head. And really, to me, I was trying to say how inappropriate it is. But the way she sings free is so important to me,

how she owned that word in the Star-Spangled banner. So many singers run from that word, or they shorten that lyric and Whitney put a whole curly cue at the end of it. She went up higher than she even normally goes. She went up into Mariah territory at that moment.

She stood there in an at ease like kind of stance. She was in a sweatsuit. When do you see Wendy Houston in a sweatsuit? Right. Right. She had a headband and some Nike Cortezes.

I was like, who is that lady? To me, you're 95 Kells piece, which... Well, see, that's blocked, though. I blocked that. But you're like the one that literally broke the story. Yes, we did. It was, I was the team effort, but we did, yes. Okay, I didn't know it's a team effort.

The team effort comes in. I'm on the road with Daniel Licksenberg. We're chasing him down. But the reporting of... Who's that? Who's that? Who's that? shot him for the cover.

The cover, it is. And I'm happy you brought that up, honestly, because... Thank you. Because really the headline is for all the time. The sex, the soul, the sales, and the scandalous marriage to teenage superstar Leah. And the thing that made it what it was was the fact that Dana got the shot, I got the story.

And Robert was so awful that day. And we didn't even know what we didn't know at that time. and so me and Dana are on the road this is Allison and me and Dana Lixonberg on the road Dana shot so many great shots of Loh Kim, Tupac Shakur but so our goal is

we got to get the story and we need him to speak and also I got a report I got to find his teacher I got to find you know I got to interview all types of people he his bodyguard let me and we were at the what was it

what was it called the arena in Philly back then, the spectrum or the spectrum. The spectrum. So I'm in the bowels of the spectrum. It wasn't fuzzy, but it was another radio DJ that when I saw him, it wasn't fuzzy, but it was somebody that reminds me of fuzzy. And they were standing on stage and soundcheck that we had snuck into. And I told him my situation, and he was like, you can have my backstage for us.

I never, like, I don't know. If that was Cosmic Ken, he looked like fuzzy from the back. Yes, right? And I was like, man, you're making my whole. life. You were doing the story and you weren't officially traveling with the camp. Not at all. We got on Amtrak from New York to the Philly. And they weren't super welcoming. They were literally signs up backstage at the spectrum that said, if you see anybody from vibe here, escort them off the premises. Wow. Wow. And so we were like, wow. We just felt like public enemy number.

one because we had a story on the, this was my thing when I was at Vibe Music Editor, Editor, and Chief, if you said you were going to do it, I'm holding you to your word. Like, I really believed that, and it was very childish almost the way I would really hold on to that. Like, my thing was very much like, you promised. And I don't know a person could be like,

your word is your word. Yeah, but I know somebody can easily be like, my fingers are crossed when I said it. Like, that sounds, that sounds, that's how, But that's how serious I was about it, though. I was just very like, no, they promised. So they're going to be held to that. And so Jive and Mr. Kelly had promised we were doing this cover story.

And then because the Aliyah stuff broke, then they said no. So my thing is, no, then we're going to find you and we are going to get the story. I'm going to come to Philly and I'm going to figure something out. If I have to interview everybody in Philly, how do you feel about this concert in this situation, I'm going to do it. If Dana has to shoot you with a telephoto list from the back of the stadium, then that's what we're going to do. But the thing is, he let us in because of Dana.

Dana's beautiful woman, white woman from South Africa and very just low key with it, very, very, not like giving you sex, not very, not giving you sexy, but just giving you like, frankly. You know what's, yeah. Disarming. Disarming. So Robert said she could come in. That's fucked up because you're fucking beautiful. Right.

All right. Listen, listen. Listen. I appreciate that. That's all right. But listen, so then Dana said, because we were really gang gang, gang, Dana said, okay, but I'm not coming in without Danielle. Damn. Wow.

So then Robert said, if you, because he knew I was, I had covered him before. I had been in London with him, all types of stuff on junkets, as people used to do back in those days. So he said, you can come in, but you can't write anything down. He said with a pen. Okay. Okay. But see, I had a pencil. So, man, listen, it was so crazy.

I can't even tell you how crazy that was. But what I'm saying, why it was such a team effort, aside from the fact that I had Alan, advising me that Dana had George Pitts, the photo director, advising her because we didn't know what to do. Also, you guys got to remember, we were kids. I was 28. I was a child. Like, I mean, I was young in the game, but was just on it.

And so while Alan was advising me and George Pitts, who's gone now, God bless the dead, was advising Dana. then Carter Harris and Rob Kenner and the whole vibe team was back there trying to find that marriage certificate. That was the goal that was set and we refused not to meet that challenge. Wow, how do you do that?

How about saying, how do you do that in 95? Let me tell you something, it was work. And we had contacts, we were reporters. We knew people who knew people who knew people. I mean, we were the ones that reported the fact that how Alia climbed

out of the window and got with the bodyguards and they got on a private plane down to Florida. Like, this is because we know people who know people. Yes. You guys had to be Google.

We had to be. And so Carter and them found a marriage certificate and we ran it. And that's also another one of those to go back, Quest, so what you were talking about with the rest of development.

That was another time when people said, old vibe is serious. Because you got to understand, I remember to see one of the higher upset vibe calling me either on that issue or the next time we put him on the cover

when we had even more evidence about his doings. I remember just putting it on speaker and just allowing people to walk into my office hearing that man call me every type of B-I-T-C-H-L-L-L-L-H-O-R-E, vibe being fish rap, vibe being

I was leading. Who is this? This is like someone very high up at Jive record. Does he still have a job? Does he still have a job? Does he have a job? Yes, he does. So I'm just saying, and then I remember too that Robert was saying he was going to sue five.

He was going on, I guess it was Hot 97 saying that. And I went on the radio because they were like, well, do you want to respond? This is how the internet used to work in the pre-internet era. And I was like, I'll take that bait. And I went up there and they were like, well, are you concerned that you guys are going to get sued? And Robert Kelly said he's going to put Bob out of business. And I said what was in true, I used to feel so confident in our, which people don't have anymore in journalism. I used to feel confident in our reporting.

I used to feel confident in our fact checking. And I used to feel confident in the fact that every single solitary page of Bob magazine went by lawyers before it went to press every single month. that I was ever working there as music editor or editor-in-chief. So my thing was I was able to say on the radio, I think that he's just like profiling. As we used to say in Oakland, he's just side-busting. Because if he wanted to sue, then he would. But he would have to prove one that we were wrong

and two that we had malicious intent, and we have neither. So when you run that piece about, you know, him doing all the abuse and just all the fuck shit, how do you then reconcile when it's time to review his next album? So, I was there for two stories,

two cover stories of R. Kelly. And I don't, I mean, the short answer is, I don't know what we actually did. I would have to look at the timeline. But if I had to guess, I would say that

the discussion went like this, and this is purely me guessing. The record is coming, coming out, he hasn't been convicted of anything. And so we have to cover it. I'm not saying that that is what happened, but just knowing how things tended to happen when I was there, that sounds like the way a conversation might have gone.

Do you think that's how it should, in 2022 with all the lenses, is that how the conversations should still go? I think once a person is convicted of something, then the conversation changes. Because a thing too, particular to the black community is this, there's so many times when black people are accused of things that they did not do. There's so many times in history where people are, black people was getting canceled before canceling was a word

because of things that they did, I mean, things that they didn't do. And so we also had to walk a very fine line. of like, well, what do we know? What is legally, I remember there was a whole thing at vibe that that happens at all places of reputable places of journalism is that you can't just go around saying that someone was murdered before there is a conviction to that point. You have to say that they were killed. Killed, yeah.

Murder is a legal term. That's a different term. term. And so these are the... So you would have to say Stubak is killed. You couldn't say that it was a murder. You could not until... Well, I'm being hypothetical when I asked... Yes, but yes. Yes. And I do believe if you go back, you will see that.

I remember that being struck out of many a piece. That he was not murdered until someone had been convicted of having murdered him. Of the murder. Oh, I can't get it. Yeah. 2%. That is the number of people. people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%.

I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier,

more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In your, I guess in your tenure there, who were some of the writers that you helped usher into the game, people that kind of started off as interns who are now like... Oh, man, listen. Look at your phone. Look at your phone. I know.

First of all, let me just say this. I don't know who all I ushered in, but I do know that I've worked with some amazing people. I mean, when I got there, you know, Alan and Jonathan Van Meter had already hired people like, Joan Morgan, who's Dr. Joan Morgan now. Scott Poulson Brian, who's Dr. Scott Pulsin Bryant now. Wow.

People like that. Okay. And then when I got there, I mean, Karen Renee Good, Marable. I was going to say Karen Good was just starting out, like writing record reviews. She was. Yeah, you gave her baduism as a lead of you. Yes, I did. I mean, Karen and I, her girlfriends, Karen was in my wedding.

Like that's how, you know, we're girlfriends like that. So obviously Karen, good Marable, who writes a lot now, so much beautiful stuff for the Oxford American. But also, Sasha Jenkins, Jeff Amow. Gave my subpoena, her start, I think. Yeah, I always got to be careful talking about who I get a start to. Right. Okay, not their start. Yes, but no, Raquelipated definitely is a genius, and she wrote for a vibe when I was there.

And also that's, I met Elliot Wilson, my husband. And then I signed him his first vibe record review also. Oh. What was his first five record review? You remember? No, but he does. Man. But there was way before we started dating.

I was actually married. Elliot's my second husband in case people don't know. No, really didn't. How long was your first? Your first one. Short and sweet. Nice. How old were you?

I got married at like 22. Oh, girl. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Is it hard when, well, I mean, at one point, both of you were editor-in-chiefs of competing. We were.

So because you guys were married and your editor-in-chief of competing, not Hatfield-McCoy level of competition. It was. Yeah, so how does that work? Like, how do you find love? You got for your couple, yeah. What separation of church and state

when both of you are fishing for, like, the same story? Well, we had a history of it already. Elliot went to become, back when we were just colleagues, Elliot stopped writing for Vibe, and he went on to become music editor of the source. Right. So I was feeling competitive at that time before we ever were dating.

So, but I had to respect the skill set. Sounds like that's one of y'all love languages. Yeah. And then when I was in grad school, by this time, he was editor in chief of XXXL, and this was around the time when we started dating, I had to respect it. Like, that's when he put Afini on the cover,

and that was just such a courageous moment. Like, I could only, I wasn't even, like, we weren't even in each other's phones or I didn't even know if we had phones back then. But I just remember saying to people, like, I know he had to fight to get that done. I know what, I know what that fight must have been like, and I respected it.

So then when we got married, I was, I was in grad school still. And it's like a nine, ten months after we were married where I went back to Vibe. And we went into it real, really very willy-nilly. We thought it was going to be very easy to manage this situation. And after our first issues, I don't know if people know my husband, but he's not known for like his calm. No, not at all.

Not, no. He's such a He's such a sweetheart, but he's just not really known for, you know, taking things lightly. He's a very passionate individual. So you calmed him down. I will say the Elliott now is way more calm.

And I actually credit that to you. That's funny. Because just his nerdy ego trip. Like days of, yeah. Yeah, those are my guys, though, all of them are 201. But it's like, but, but no, so we really, after the first issue, it just was bad, like, the way things went down.

Yeah. And also you have to understand that we had staffs of people that, Ellie and a whole staff of people that already believed in him. And I was a brand new second time editor in Chief of Vibe that wanted a staff to believe in me. So we had to establish some, as we called them back then, some rules and regulations and some tyrants and conditions. Come on now. You got to give us a couple. I got to know.

Well, I mean, if I'm honest, the main one was just that you could not discuss in any way at home anything that was going on with the issue at work. You could say somebody was getting on your nerves or I don't know why they don't have Coca-Cola's in the refrigerator at work, but you couldn't come home and say, like, I'm really trying to get this covered with A, B, or C, no. Gotcha, gotcha. Let me ask only because, again, like, you and him are to me the most courageous power couple of journalism. Only because both of you had your feet in the fire again at a time in which, and I'm using more hyperbole when I say dangerous. I'll say more like exciting times, but I'll also say serious times. Very serious. Like you, you were definitely around during like the,

what they would call the danger era of. Right. The East and Westing. But, you know, for also him, as, as a wife, were you concerned about his situation at the source? Because he, too, was sort of in a weird, pickled situation. The Benzino era. Yeah.

I mean, he was at XXL at that time, but yeah. Right. And, like, was there just any, just general worry for safety coming for your end. Like, okay, don't write that op-ed because you know good and well that this is going to, or for you it was just like church and state, we're never talking about what our work is and bringing it into the home. When Elliott was going through the most terrible stuff, we were not dating.

We weren't. Okay, I get it. Yeah, we weren't. We started dating at the, I think, the end of 03, but let me not put too final point. point on it because I got it. Elliot was away in the streets at the time when we were dating.

So just for our listeners, Elliot was at XXL right during the height of, I guess the Eminem versus Benzino Wars. Yeah, right through the 50s. And it would get very serious. Very serious. As I said, at that time when he was going

through the very worst of it, we weren't dating. I knew him as a as a colleague and, you know, there's a certain scene of writers and such in New York at that time, black writers and stuff where we all kind of knew each other, would see each other out and that kind of thing. And I always knew Elliot, like I said, he used to write for me when I was music editor at Vibe. And he was always supportive of me. I remember when my book came out in 03, my first novel, he came into, because he was bawling, he came into Barnes & Noble and brought like 15 books. And he was just, you know, he was that type of dude. But even for,

from afar and through my friends on the scene and people who were publicists and other writers, I mean, they would say that Elliot was going through it. You know, people that saw him. I mean, these are his stories to tell, but people that saw him more than I did. And I also know just now being his wife for these many years, you know, the health issues and stuff that came out of that era. Like, it's, you know, stuff that he still manages to this day. So, I mean, he's a brave dude, though.

but none of us are like super human, you know, and there was some real scary stuff that we all went through. Some of it is in Shine Bright, where just, you know, threats were made. And it's like, I remember my mom coming to see me in New York from California. And she really did, but she did a couple of times. And she's at the office. And I was just going about the business of my day. And then she said, like, so is this how it always is? And I was like, what?

And she was like, just the way It was a different era She's like just the way you're talking to people I said, how am I talking to people? She's like, just cursing and stuff And I was like, am I cursing? She's like, yes, you're cursing a lot On the phone to people

And I was like, that's because people are trying to back out of the things that they said they were going to do That's because of this, that's because of that And my mother said, Okay, but like, are you running a staff? Or are you running the gang? Like, what's going on? But see, the thing is,

Yeah, but see, because the thing is, it was, you began. Let me think about it. It's a good question. I mean, I was only there for about five more months because we were scared. And also, you guys understand how invested we were in vibes success, how much responsibility we felt to the community and to ourselves and just the music and to hip-hop culture. Like, we were obsessed. There's not a better word for it. I would say this about just most everybody on the staff down to the receptionists.

It had to be a lot of pressure because you're top of that food chain. Yeah. And people were, people were attacking us physically. People were getting guns pulled on them in the studio over record reviews and stuff. And so it's like, yeah. Would you change anything? I would change everything up here. Oh, no.

No, I don't believe it. Not everything, but you know what? If I just, as I said, we were all, we were young, man. I get it. Think about your, think about your, think about, I called them my baby cousins and stuff. Like, I think about my baby cousins that are like 25 years old right now. They come over and ask me the most ridiculous stuff. And I'm like, aren't you grown?

And they're like, no. And I'm like, I was a whole, like. I thought that was. Right. I was a whole R&B editor of Billboard at that at your age, man. like what like I was at I was I was I was I was editing have a log Nelson when I was like 25 yeah that's not fair to put that now their age not their age like a 24 you know in 95 and a 24 in 24 in 22 or two completely different it's very different it's very different I'm not saying

I wasn't mature but I'm just saying I was still I didn't have a lot of it I was learning how to manage on the job and then all of a sudden you tell me you come into my office and say I was at the studio and such and such didn't like the review and I told him I was I didn't know what to say to that and then they just pulled out a gun now I'm not going to act

like I'm not from East Oakland because I am but that was this statement well it's loaded from a native yeah but that still shouldn't be normalized it's not normalized but in the 19

late 1980s in Oakland, in East Oakland in particular, but in West Oakland too. In your office, and I'm talking about when we do the story. No, no, no, but I'm saying that, you know, and you just kind of kind of had to be about it in East Oakland. And so did I bring some of that being about it to the offices of vibe? I probably did.

I probably did. When you are running a ship like that, is there pressure that you felt that you're, male contemporaries wouldn't have had to have gone through. Yes. Wait, wait, wait, time out. Was Alan? Are you fucking kidding?

These motherfuckers don't even talk. No, but Tom out. Was Alan and Jonathan a screamer? Were they screamers or? No, not enough. Not enough. Not a lot. I almost think Alan's like, not passive aggressive, but like.

No, Alan's just a very soft-spoken dude. Right. That's what I'm saying. Also, people deal with white men differently than they deal with black women. All the time. of power. And as much as I'm saying that, you know, I brought some of my East Oakland Ness to the editor-in-chief's chair, I'm also sitting front row in Milan at, you know, the Jill

Sanders show and things like that and trying to give all of that energy before I even knew how to give that kind of energy. But if you're asking me, was it hard because I was a black woman? Absolutely. And this is a thing. I'm not guessing. because I know the men that ran other magazines and that ran vibe after me. And I know what their experiences were like as compared to my experiences.

I know how much money they made as compared to how much money I made. I know all of these things. Also just because I'm nosy and I'm a reporter. So it's like, was it harder for me? Yes. Were there times when it was easier for me? maybe, but not enough. It didn't balance out the hard shit.

No. As an artist, I wanted to study who the gatekeepers of reviews and words were. I'm still making records, but at the time when I was making product, but for you, do you have hope

for what counts for journalism today? Because I will say that there's like a level of thoroughness that is kind of lost. And there's also just technique. And I'm not saying that it's a lost art. Like there's definitely some writers that I feel like are super smart and super insightful.

But for the most part, I think now it's like the Wild Wild West where just, you know, there's just people that aren't that knowledgeable about their subjects. They run on Wikipedia real quick or run to your old articles and add to it. Do you feel like you're, you're, your era of the NBA or the new era of the NBA can hold a candle to your era of it? It's harder, but yes, I do think they can.

For the most part, if there's differences in quality, it's not the fault of the writer. It's also what they have to write about. No, it's the fact that there's no budgets or anything. There's no, if you're writing right now for 20 cents a word, how much are you putting into it? I was writing for 20 cents a word when I was in my early 20s. If you were, I turn stuff down now because I'm just like,

it's just not worth it for me to do that because I'm not even contributing to my household well on what you're trying to pay me. And so then you have kids who aren't getting fact checked. You have kids that aren't, not even kids, but adults who aren't being edited by people that no one understand the culture and who they themselves are being paid well enough to put their heart and soul into the work.

You have people that are only doing email interviews because no one wants to pay somebody's cab fare across town, let alone a plane trip. I remember when I sent Michael Gonzalez, another great writer from the vibe era. Shout out to Michael Gonzalez. Gonzo, Mike, at Twitter.

It's like, I remember Barry White had an album coming out that was to practice what you preach album. And And they were like, well, I wanted this story. I just wanted the story. I wanted this story. I think I was music editor at the time. And they were like, well, we can't do it.

We can't do it. But if you want to send somebody to Brussels right now, then we can do it. I went to my boss, whoever it was at the time and told him the situation. They said, well, buy my ticket to Brussels. And they went. And it's a great, great story from Michael. And the headline is Blackberry Jam. and it's an amazing, it's an amazing story,

an amazing photographs. And it's like, where is that going to happen? Now, that's not the fault of the writer. That's the thing that's heartbreaking to me. One of the great things about me going to ESPN was because ESPN has budget. As I said, they sent me to Qatar to do Simone Biles. When is that happening? They can afford to take care of people like Justin Tensi, like David Dennis, like Soraya.

Right. Like, like, yeah, like, you know, like, so that people can make a living and have a life. There's not even that many places right now where you can go where that's okay. So when I say I have hope, I do believe that the pendulum is going to swing back, but it's going to take some foot stopping and maybe even some swinging on the part of the journalists themselves. That's when I say, yes, like, I don't know what a general strike is called for. I don't know, but something got to give. Okay.

Are you going to write any more fictional? novels. Whether, yes, I love fiction and, uh, my MFA is in fiction. I may. God willing, and life is long, I may. But I will admit that the things that I'm thinking about with regard to fiction now would probably be more scripts, maybe the novels. Um, yeah, it's what I'm into right now and thinking about how to maybe even look at

my first two novels and how those things might turn into things that exist in other spaces, whether that's audio, whether that's, you know, film. or whatever. So those are the kind of things that I'm thinking about a lot, trying to learn about. I'm taking a page out of your book, sir. Just trying to look at what can happen. Yeah, what can happen in documentary spaces and things like that. I'm actually, you know, I guess by the time this airs, we'll already made an announcement. Like, I'm a Frady Cat in terms of I never make an announcement until the project is finished. Okay.

And then it comes. But probably the biggest secret I've been keeping under my hat for the last two years is I, too, have written a fictional book. And I will assume that this will come out by next week. Next week. I've been a junkie of time travel. And one of my favorite writers, a gentleman named S.A. Cosby, who he's written many New York Times bestseller. So he and I sort of came friends over the pandemic. And I guess, you know, taking a break from doing the movie, I would DJ.

But then taking a break from DJ and I would journal and wrote my other music book. But then my fourth pivot was I always wanted to write kind of the books that I didn't get to read as a kid. So it's. And are those books like black people traveling in time? Is that what is? Yeah, it's two kids. It's, it's middle school books. So it's two kids that are.

It's a WIO novel. Okay. Yeah, it's two kids that are, are. I love to hear it. I love to hear it. Yeah, a grown up boy. They're both 14 and 15. And the girl, she's like a science wizard.

And she invents a time, travel device. And he gets the bright idea to try to save one of his groups that he admired from breaking up and the butterfly effect of. Yeah. Of that. Anyway. This sounds really good. That's like I remember I used to read all those Madeline Lingo books like

Wrinkle in time and all that. All the time those folks were white in the book. I love the books, but I didn't see myself in them. Yeah, I kept that one under wraps only because like, again, I have like nine projects on the back burner and maybe only four of them will actually make it to fruition. And the other five sort of fall at the wayside. Then I got to figure out what to do.

with it. But this sounds really exciting. It sounds so excited. Thank you. I'm excited. I'm excited. I want to ask you, Dan, before we break up. So were you editor and vibe? Was this like 98, 99? Were you still there at that time? I was there from 97 and 99. 9799. Okay. There was a review.

It was the lead review for the Revolution's record review section. That was a four heroes, two pages album. I don't know if you even remember this. But it was the lead review. And that was just, if you were there, I just want to just thank you for that. Man, I was the craziest leave review ever. Who wrote it? Who wrote it?

God. Don't get me the line. Don't get me the line. I don't have to look it up. I don't recall it off the rip, but I wish I did because you guys are making me feel like I should go back and find it. Yeah, that review just opened me up. I mean, I never would have found that album had I not saw that. And that just opened me up for just a complete.

Yeah, yeah, that was my first time ever hearing reading that review. That's crazy. I mean, you've been living in London for years, so it was whatever to you. Well, no, they're the reason why I did the German base thing at the end of, you got, yeah, when Four Hero got that leave review, even I was like, oh, God damn, like, finally.

Did Greg Tate read? I bet you any money and money. It was probably Greek. I bet you. It sounds like it. That's one of the honors of my life, too, is editing Greg, but at that time I was editor-in-chief, so I wouldn't have been editing him one-on-one,

but the way it used to work at vibe was the writer filed to their editor, and then that piece then would go from, they go back and forth with it, and then that would go to what was called the top editor, which was the senior editor, and then the senior editor would get it right, and then it would go on page, and usually then the editor-in-chief would read it at that point,

and then it would go from approval by the editor-in-chief to fact-checking to make sure every fact was correct, and then after fact-checking, it would go to copy editing to make sure every period in common, everything was in the right place. And then at that time, it would go to photo. And then after, it would go to photo and design. And then at that point, it would go to production and be made into a real page. And that's when I say, when you talk about budgets, you're talking about paying every single person at every single stage.

And that just doesn't exist anymore. Just me, I forgot. I believe, if you were there in 90, were you there in 99? a part of it. You guys actually let me write my own vibe feature. That sounds right. That sounds right. Oh, when you were naked,

the naked, John. No, that was such a moment. It would be like Chris Rock is guest editing. I think that was almost my last. That was cool too. Yeah,

I feel like that was my second to last issue. And then maybe there was the J cover where he has his hands in front of him like this, right, in a white suit. But that was kind of the end of my. my first editor-in-chief era. The J-Lo, the very first J-Lo cover in 99. That was... I don't think I was there for that, though.

You guys didn't send a writer over, so literally I just had to diary touring Europe. That sounds like an amazing thing, though. Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely one of the, probably the second major features I wrote. Like, I enjoyed it. All right, my last question, because you are from Oakland.

I am. But to be of age in Oakland, at the time when that first generation of hip hop was coming out. Are there any notable, like for you, moments of growing up in Oakland that you can share as far as like the culture of it in terms of shows that you saw when you were younger, that sort of thing? Because it's such a musical town. I mean, I don't know if I have how many Oakland tales I have. I can just tell you that. Your best one.

What do I have? I mean, I told you, I saw the Jackson 5 nearby in San Carlos at the Circle Star Theater. And it's like, I don't know. Like, let's just pass by the childhood stuff and get back to me moving to the Bay Area as a college student at UC Berkeley. So now you have to understand, too, that the Bay Area is a huge touring stop. I mean, you know this. And so I'm seeing anybody from a flock of seagulls to Frankie, Beverly and Mays to Ziggy Marley, I'm seeing all of that.

And then when I decide I'm going to become like I'm really going to become a writer, then it's like MC Hammer's blowing up Invogue's blowing up two shorts blowing up Tony Tony Tony's blowing up and these are just the folks that invoke the TimeX Social Club These are just the folks that got famous We're not even talking about Paris is blown up We're not even talking about Kate Cloud and the crew

You know what I'm saying? We're not talking about MC aunt We're not talking about what about conscious daughters Obviously Yeah don't forget about the Cautious daughters Ant Banks the Coots and the Cool was right there Like we were all coming up together

And then when the tour happened, the tour that I was out a lot on, the public enemy tour with Heavy Dina Boys, Queen Latif and the Safari sisters. Fear of a Black Planet tour with Digital Underground had those masks on. Yes. One of the best hip-hop tours in history and kid and play, depending on the date, it would be MCBree. Depending on the day, it would be Luke Skywalker, two live group. Depending on the place, it would be Serfix. lot.

Trouble T. Roy died on that tour. Just like those, Tupac was on that tour, dancing background for digital. Those moments and the way that Oakland hip hop will coalesce around. Obviously, Chuck D. I don't even know how I can explain it.

It's just, and then I'd be in the studio sometimes at digital because those are my guys and I was dating a road manager back then, all the wild stuff we was doing. And shout out to Neil Sliff Johnson, who's an amazing guy, still were friends to this day.

You know, we'd be in the studio in, in Marin County or in Richmond and be like, you know, gold records from like platinum records from like Huey Lewis in the news and Journey and Frankie Beverly Mays and the whispers and all pointer sisters and all this grace of tower power from Oakland history. And it's like we felt like we were in the righteous space, man. It felt good. And honestly, it still feels good. I had to get it out.

Daniel, I thank you very much. I know we had a few false starts and trying to do this, but thank you. I was going to say Mark Weingarten wrote that four-hero review. He wrote that review that you're talking about? Yeah, that's... I remember one. Yes. Okay, but I just wanted to thank you for that.

Oh, well, of course. We are happy to be of service. We really are. And we really were. And like I said, all of us that worked there over the time. I'm not saying we didn't have our bad times. But if you are a part of VibexXcel to source any of those big magazines, even Assis, Latina, all those King. Essence Latina, wow.

Yeah. You know, King magazine, slam, all that stuff. It's like, it's a certain fraternity slash sorority that we're all in. And everything wasn't perfect. We didn't do everything right. But we are most, most of us pretty proud of the stuff that we did there. And if it wasn't for that, would there be shine bright? No.

Would there be Black Girl's on Boat? Right. No. Not at all. No. Not at all. So, yeah, again, I really want to thank you. And yeah, I highly recommend to our audience who religiously listens to our podcast.

You definitely want to get the book, get the hard copy. And actually, you know, the audio book where I've just never heard someone so emotionally. Oh, listen. Ripped into. Yeah. Because no, no, the days I couldn't read it, I would drive to it. And, you know, there's a few times you had to break down and catch some tears for a second. And that's me, that's, I was just going to say that.

Yeah. An awesome level of vulnerability. And I really love the book. And it sets a lot of light on a lot of unsung heroes that we didn't know. So thank you very much, Daniel. I appreciate it. Thank you all. Thank you, Quest so much.

It's the honor. And thank you everybody on this team. It's amazing to see and meet everybody. All right. On behalf of Laia and Fantigolo and Sugar Steve, you still there. Yeah. Thank you, Daniel. There you go.

The journalist. episodes are my favorite. Unpaid bill is back. Whatever you said, you're on mute right now. I'll speak for him. He said, give me a baby. All right, great, great. All right, this is Questlove, and we'll see you on the next year round. Thank you very much.

Questlove Supreme is a production of Iheart Radio. For more podcasts from Iheart Radio, visit the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator of

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