The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: David Murray

Episode Date: August 7, 2024

In the last year, The Roots' Questlove and Ray Angry made an album with today's guest — Jazz legend David Murray. David is a veteran saxophonist and a longtime leader within the Free Jazz movement. In this episode, taped in-studio, David explains why freedom in music reflects freedom in life. He recalls highlights of a 55-plus-year journey with intersections with a who's who of Jazz, as well as Sly Stone and The Grateful Dead. David discusses the moods, attitudes, tours, and figures that have colored his career. He also discusses working with The Roots and collaborating with Quest and Ray for their Plumb material.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. This is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far. But I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, Football, soccer is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Alarcon and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of. of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions.

You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamers. Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre as they

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Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is Amy Roboc, alongside T.J. Holmes from the Amy and T.J. podcast. And there is so much news, information, commentary. coming at you all day and from all over the place. What's fact, what's fake, and sometimes what the F. So let's cut the crap, okay?

Follow the Amy and T.J. podcast, a one-stop news and pop culture shop to get you caught up and on with your day. And listen to Amy and T.J. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. You gentlemen, you're listening to be world's most dangerous creative. Our guest today is a legendary creative who in the vein of such giants

as Archie Shep and Ordeck Coleman and Albert Island has pushed the envelope of what music and what Bob and modal jazz is. He's pretty much carrying the culture on his back right now, having made over 200 albums and recorded and collaborated with the likes of, Max Roach, Taj Mahal, Amiri Baraka, The Grateful Dead, Saul Williams, the Roots, Gregory Porter, The Plum Projects.

He leads the world saxophone quartet for over 40 years. Pretty much, he's going to realign the Brave New World trio. And come May of this year, his new project, Francesca, will be available for mass consumption for us to listen to. please welcome to the show, David Murray. Yes, sir. Thank you. So I had to say, and I've said this to you before,

your biggest champion is no longer on this plane with us. But, you know, I came to know you because of my manager, Richard Nichols, who before I even met Richard Nichols, rich was like the guy that you listened to on like the free jazz station in Philadelphia radio. and he would constantly play levels of spiritual and free jazz that I'd never heard of before. And he would play your records.

And even though Rich was talkative, like I rarely heard Rich talk passionately about things. Well, only because, I mean, Rich was passionate, but he was also, like to know Rich is very extreme. Well, he was part of that crew, you know, The Empty Foxhole in Philly, Temple University, WRTI. He was part of that whole crew that accepted us with open arms during that time. I mean, I was playing with Sonny Murray at Tray's Lounge and hanging out in Philly, you know, doing those kind of gigs.

I had some very early days in Philly because, you know, I came out from California. And people like, Ritchie, you know, they kind of helped me settle in Philly. Philly was almost like a second home for me because I couldn't go home, you know, because I was 3,000 miles away. And I noticed that a lot of cats in New York, they go to Philly. And because they felt warm because that WRTI family, Richie and all the people there. Lovewick Fam Tric even before. That was after, he was after. But people like that.

So I'll say like a month after I met Rich, we had our first music arguments and by music, really mainly jazz arguments. And, you know, the thing was I was going to school at a time with a bunch of young lions, like Christian McBride, Joey Dean Francesco, Kurt Rosalinkle, like all these cats who are like now today the establishment. And like in order to get those guys respect in high school, there's a certain language you had to speak. And of course, because those guys were younger, they kind of went to the route of where Winton was leading jazz. and the way that rich would just come down hard on like, no, man, like, I know you think, and he had to put it in ways that I can understand, which, you know, at the time he was like, basically this that you're listening to would basically be like what bad boy is, like,

how people think, you know, there's a, there's a sect of people that believe that that's not the true. Real hip-hop, son. Yeah, real hip-hop. And, you know, some people that wouldn't know better is just like, hey, that's hip hop. And I was like, well, give me an example of what you think it is. And pretty much, like, he just, it was important to him that he sort of reprograms me to understand your level of artistry. And once I fell inside that rabbit hole, I couldn't get out of. And it was always Rich's sort of opinion that because of what he saw as, you know,

as the one step forward, 30 steps backwards progression of where jazz was was like, okay, we only want to hear this 40s bird level of bop and really not move forward. Like he felt that you and also the in-base movement, Steve Coleman, Greg Osby, like people really pushing the envelope should have been way, way, like, he's like, he's a modern coltrain. Like he's a living, walking God amongst us. Do you ever tire of that kind of fan worship from jazz enthusiasts? Because even when looking up your press,

like the Village Voice gave you artists of the decade in the 80s, you know. Well, that's because, you know, Stanley was talking, Stanley Crouch. He talked a lot and Gary getting listened a lot, what he said. Stanley wouldn't stop talking, you know. So I know that Stanley Crouch was your... He claimed he was a six- best drummer in New York. And everybody knows that

wasn't true. Right, right. So, you know, he said a lot of things, you know. And when him and Winton hooked up, and that was a kind of a stormy situation, I'd say. They became some kind of jazz police or something like that. Right. So that's the thing.

How do you... What put him in that position where he was that authority figure? Was it Robert Christigal giving him that much leeway at the village voice? Well, he was my English teacher in college, you know, at Pomona College, California. I mean, he had, he had probably one of the most popular courses on Herman Melville there. Herman Melville?

Herman Melville, the guy who wrote Moby Dick. Okay, okay. Yeah. And, yeah, so he's a writer, you know, so, and he's a kind of guy that would, he gave me a card one time that had his, his fingers in a boxing glove on typewriter. And that was his business card. You know, so like him and Ishmael Reed called me up one time and said, hey, man, your boy Stanley's going for the championship. So, you know, Richie knew all. He knew about all that.

But Richie was also fighting against that because, you know, a lot of Richard could see through all that bullshit. Was he that volatile, though? Because I've heard stories of you know, before he passed, Greg Tate told me a story of, like, Stanley will be in the village voice, like having arguments of music with writers, and then it goes to pugilism levels. Oh, yeah.

Well, you know, Tate, I like him, too, but I remember he wrote an article about me trying to get, trying to find his place, too. He wrote an article about me in the village voice called David Murray Halfstepping. What? Really? Yeah. And when I seen him, I talked to him about it, you know. Hey.

Are you, I want to, I'm going to approach it. Yeah, yeah. I talk to a lot of people. You talked to a lot of, you know, I talked to, I mean, I talked to, you know, I wasn't scared of. I was going to say, have you ever had a conversation with one? Me and Winston had dinner not so long ago. It was wonderful. Look, we buried the hatchet.

Okay. Whatever hatchet there was, we buried it. And come to tell you the truth. And, I mean, maybe I shouldn't even talk about it in depth the way I usually talk about things. But, but, um, Winton is a. a brilliant young man. And I just remember the first time I seen him in Brantford, I went to New Orleans when the World Saxophone Quartet started. Kid Jordan brought us down there. Okay. And we played with London Branch and this great drummer. I'll forget his name. It was a pharmacist from Mississippi.

And I seen these two young men, Wenton and his brother. They were in this class of kid, Jordan. And bright eyes, they look brilliant. Next thing I know, Somebody had said we was against each other or something like that. I say, but that's that young man I seen there in high school, which was great. There's an article that was in a paper in Paris. They translate all the great articles around the world, different issues into French, and they put it out in a magazine. You could buy, you could see it.

Anyway, it was, they had a thing that said, is this man destroying jazz? He had a picture of Winton. And then a lot of article was about me and Winton and the argument that we had back and forth and back and forth. But finally, in the end, man, you know, Wenton has done some very beautiful things. Lincoln Center, Albert Murray's, Stanley.

I mean, they've created a wonderful situation. And I wouldn't do that for anything in my life. That never would have been me. I didn't want that job, and I'm glad that he's brilliant enough to do it. I have an interest in this, only because I see the parallels between, because we do this a lot in hip-hop culture.

You know, the really first generation that was raised on hip-hop. We're just around the corner from being senior citizens, and, you know, a lot of us are looking at those that were born after the 2000s trying to make sense of like, is this hip hop if it's not? My general agreement is if I don't like it and it makes me uncomfortable, then they might, they must be doing something right. Yeah. They're doing something right.

And arguments are good in situations like this because, you know, like they say, among the communists, they say, well, it keeps you sharp. Arguments keep you sharp. For hip hoppers, 1997 is kind of that year in which. really the shift of hip hop changed to where we kind of are right now, which, you know, it's neither good nor bad because I've heard music that I personally thought, ah, man, that's classic hip-hop, and I'll return to it, and it'll just be like, eh, that song's all right.

But, and, you know, and there's production now that's way better than anything that came out, you know, in the last decades. But in jazz music, I was led to believe. that, you know, the path that Miles Davis was sort of laying down with, and, you know, even though people make the most out of bitches brun on the corner, like, the idea of like free jazz and culling outside the lines is Miles wasn't just the only one. However, you know, something happened in the mid-70s in which a lot of his musicians had to find other ways of making income because of his dependency. And a lot of them started saying, hey, let's just write pop

tunes, whatever. And so a lot of his people sort of had to go into other areas of music, which left the gap open. And I guess the perception was that, you know, when you, when did you make it like your first record, like in 78, 70? 76. Right. So when you arrived, then I guess the perception was that you are going to pick the baton up and lead the charge and then out of nowhere jazz goes back to the 40s that made people feel safe. Like the bop movement suddenly returns. Like in your mind, where did you feel that you were creatively in 76 when you're making your debut?

Well, you know, prior to that, you know, I grew up in the Church of God in Christ and my mother was a piano player. Really? Yeah. Used to be at Ephesians Church and then Missionary Church of God and Christ. You know, all that old happy days. She was part of all of that. You know, so I grew up, I mean, I remember the first thing I remember about music.

I'm three or four years old, and she's trying to learn how to play the foot pedals on the organ, and I'm making the game out of it, you know, because I wasn't known enough to go to school, you know. So the next thing I know, I got a saxophone, and I'm nine, and, you know, I took it to church that night and started playing. Reverend Daniels said, oh, I see young David's got a new instrument. He sounds quite spirited, you know, and I was playing. playing shit like Howard Island but I didn't know what the hell I was doing. You know, but now I do.

So anyway, so when I came to New York, I had played a lot of blues gigs. I played with, you know, I played backup to bad singers, R&B, played in Richmond, you know, behind different singers, Tyrone Davis, different people come through town. You play with Tyrone Davis?

Yeah, come through your town. What other commercial artists have you played with the new monics. I mean, a lot of people. I mean, everybody in the Bay Area, you know. I mean, I was in horn sections, you know, mixed company. I'm at homes, uptites and different people, you know, people like that, you know, organ players, different people, you know. I mean, I grew up in church, you know. So when I came to New York, I kind of put all that stuff away to kind of get into this new music movement. So when I got to New York, I could tell you, We used to play down the studio, Wee and different studios.

And I knew a lot more than a lot of the cats around me. I mean, there was a lot of cats that were playing the horn real hard and longing. But I grew up playing the saxophone. I didn't just pick it up, you know. I had history in my sound. You know, the horn has always been my best friend. And I was an athlete, you know, so I could play the horn. And I could play it with power.

And I use circular briefing for power, not for long notes. You know, I get louder as I play. So anyway, I'm just saying I scrapped all of what I learned in my teenage years and early years to come into the avant-garde. Because I knew Bobby Bradford and I knew Arthur Blythe. I knew Wilburne Morris and Butch Morris. And I met all these people that. showed me how to go into this area of music. But I had already learned a lot of stuff before I met them.

So when I came to New York, it was easy for me to navigate somehow because I had this history in my young self. I had all this history already inside of me. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me.

Clifford Taylor the Fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also is the co-hosts. of The Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids.

My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game, and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer... Football is a story we've shared for over 30 years, since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team.

Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, its hope, it's heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man.

They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real House Wise franchise. the drama, the alliances, and the T, everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game.

As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth, John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts.

Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network

on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, Ernest, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with. financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship. From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand.

Because the truth is, most people will never taught how money really works. But once you understand the system, you can start to build within it. That means ownership, smarter investing and creating opportunities not just for yourself but for the next generation. If you want to learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner, earn your leisure is the podcast for you. Listen to Earn Your Leisure on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody, it's Sugar Steve from Questlove Supreme.

I hope you're enjoying the David Murray episode. I just wanted to tell you that we have some live shows coming up with the Blue Note to promote this album that David Murray and Questlove and Ray Angrier on called Plum from J.M. recordings. The live shows are happening August, 12th, 13th, and 14th. That's a Monday, Tuesday, and a Wednesday. There are two sets each night. We hope to see you there, and we hope that you're enjoying Plum and QLS. Have a very merry Christmas. Were you aware of the perception, like I always thought that, or I was under the impression that New Yorkers kind of look down on California musicians, jazz musicians. Yeah, because they all, because, you know, because

a lot of the jazz musicians from California, they end up playing that smooth jazz in L.A. And I couldn't stand that kind of stuff. So it's valid. I couldn't stand it. So when I came to New York, I wanted to play hard. I mean, I heard, I mean, I was, like, coming out of interstellar space with Train and Rashid Ali.

That was like, that's what I wanted to do kind of stuff like that. You know, I mean, I met Sunran, hung out with him, and I met Rassan out there. I met Sunday Rollins, you know, and I wanted to be like those guys. What was the first stop-you-in-your-track moment when you realized that the saxophone could go way past Stan Getz or just someone that, you know, was more melodic and really didn't come out of lines? Like the whole spiritual jazz movement, because even then there's still this talk of like, well, is this jazz? Is this?

Well, when I heard Coleman Hawkins, play the possibility of the tenor it really the way he played it was endless I mean to me he was playing avant guard just pressing his notes you know doing those standards playing body and soul and all that

the way his rhythmic approach was I mean everybody that plays the tenor saxophone copies Coleman Hawkins Was Ornette Coleman was he someone that you listen to? Of course! Yeah of course of course I mean

Bobby Bradford used to to play with Arnett. So we talk in L.A. When I passed through L.A., I was in Pomona College. I never really spent that much time in L.A. I was mostly on campus. And then I came to New York on the independent study. And then I was, instead of continuing with my sophomore year,

I just kind of just started making records. And the next thing I know I am sitting here with you guys. Just like that. Oakland, California has a rich deep history. of black musicianship and whatnot. Yeah, like Slylin Family Stone, everything. I miss Sly at church. Really?

Mm-hmm. When? When I was a kid. You tell me about it. Yeah, we went to Vallejo to some, you know, they always have these pastors appreciation times, you know, one church goes to another and they raise money for the pastor and then they reciprocate, you know.

It was one of those kind of deals. That's what, that's, I met him in the pulpit, you know, up there with the band. I didn't know who he was at the time, but yeah, I mean, now that I looked back on it, yeah, I met him. What was your acronym? Oh, Kojik. Cochick, yeah. Church of God of Christ. So what, like, what denomination is that?

Is it? My mother was Tremaine's godmother. We used to take baths together, me and Tremaine. Hawkins. Tremaine Davis. Harkin. Which, who became Tremaine Hockins, okay. So, yes.

So we lived not far down the street. from Ephesians, a couple of blocks on the park there in Berkeley. So, yeah, I mean, I grew up with these people. Was there any point in your life in which you did desire more of like a commercial route? I mean, the music of Junior Walker, the music of... You know, my mother passed when I was 13. And three years after that, my father remarried to Verna. And she said, I just loved that Bernard Johnson.

He's just really loved, you know, the saxophone player, Bernard Johnson, that's the name, right? And he's got a story, you know. He's got that thing, trimple, and it's beautiful. And he said, David, you can't never do better than him. It's okay. I said, all right, I love Bernard too. I'm not going to, I'm going to lead that to him.

I'm not going to, I'm not going to be the gospel guy. No, no, that ain't going to be my thing. I couldn't wait to get out of church. But it was a bit. beautiful experience on the other hand. But I'm still with God, but I'm not... No, absolutely. No, believe that.

Assuming any time that you played in church, were you allowed to even go to that level of... Not then. It was different then than it is now. I mean, when they started rocking it, I mean, the church that I went to, I remember the big thing was Ku Klux, when they could start wearing Kul-O-Lox. When they could start wearing...

and Kuulaks to a Sunday school picnic and whatnot. See, that was a whole other time. Now they have dances that are gospel. You know, my people in Texas, you know, they have gospel kind of dances where they dance to beautiful hip-hop, you know, gospel hip-hop. And, you know, it wasn't like that before. Women couldn't wear jewelry, you know. I mean, it was a lot of things that you couldn't do during that time.

Then the music just blew up. And then people started realizing that, oh, these Cogic musicians are very, very good. So Cogic is the same, like Baptist Church, Codic Church, they both rock out. Like you're saying as far as musically, they both just get the same, get down the same when it comes to. Well, my brother right now, my brother, he's a cogent musician. He plays piano like my mom and directs choir. For instance, he plays at Three Baptist Church every Sunday. Okay, okay, okay.

That's what he makes his money on. Okay. And he runs choirs. Some churches, I'm not going to knock on any religions. Some churches just don't, they don't have the musicians that Church of God and Christ seems to generate. That's all I'm saying. You check Andre Krause. See, Andre, first of all, Andrea and Stanley is first cousins.

Did not know that. I think it because I'm like, why do we have two couches? This is stuff we want to know about one of the show. Look, we're waiting both of them walk. Wait, like that. They're both dead now, so I'm not talking about nobody. Oh, no. So, but I'm saying.

Oh, Stanley Crouchon's in Crouchon. Yes, why I said you're Crouch? How many Crouch is going to be? You see, in California at that time, two bishops, Bishop Cleveland and Bishop Crouch. One is in L.A., Crouchon's in the Bay, on Alcatraz and Berkeley. So, yeah, there we go.

And that was their daddy. Yeah. Wow. So strong families, very strong. Was only continuing your studies your main reason for the move to New York City? Yes. I got a state scholarship to play music, to study music at Pomona College. I met James Newton and I had to play flute because, you know, during that time, you couldn't major in John Coltrane like you can now. You know, I mean, I had to play far-A to get in college on the flute, you know. You know?

Really? So, yeah, I met to put my tennis saxophone over there, you know. So I started playing with Arthur Blythe and Stanley and Mark Dresser and James Newton. And James Newton hooked me up with the flute, so I could get in and do all my interest exams and all that. Because I had won a state scholarship, so I could have went to school anywhere I wanted to in California. I went by Stanford, and it was bland. It wasn't nothing happening over there. I went to University of Pacific.

It wasn't nothing happening there. I went to a lot of colleges. But Pomona, the only reason I went there was because I met Stanley and I met Bobby and I met Arthur and I met all these guys who ended up coming to New York. And when Arthur came to New York, I wanted to go to. So I figured out a way to get this independent study thing so I'll get to New York. What was it about Stanley that drew you to him? Was it a constant thing of one-upsmanship or, you know?

Well, I also wanted to be a writer. and I was impressed by his writing. He had written this book of poetry. Ain't no ambulance for no niggas tonight. Right. Made in an album to? Bob Thiel put it out. Anyway, you know, and I was interested in all kinds.

I was writing poetry. I thought I could be a writer and a musician. And, yeah, in fact, I did my senior thesis on Stanley's poetry book. You know, after a while, after I known Stanley for a couple of years, I had to get away from his aura. You know, I mean, he was a good friend, very good friend.

But when he hooked up with Winton, then I had to put some distance on that, that whole thing. And it's just the nature of things. I mean, I used to hang out with Albert Murray a lot. Then all of a sudden, I wasn't welcome anymore. I don't know. It was kind of getting a cold shoulder over there. Yeah. So what was your practice at your height?

The times when I were doing everything else, I was just practicing. I mean, I just kept the horn in my mouth. I don't even know the hours. It's probably way more than that. I mean, I just would have the horn everywhere. I mean, you know, when you're in your teens and 20s, until you have kids. You know, that horn is everything. And then sometime when the kids come, they're going to some of your practice hours.

I don't know. That's just life. guess. Now, my son and I, we spend a couple hours a day every day and bebop just going over because I'm trying to impart a lot of things to him. Saddam's Mingus. Yes. So, you know, to my son Mingus, you know. And he could play the guitar, but he wants to know everything now. He's like a sponge, and I'm just glad that he's ready for it because he's played with me in different settings with my octet and with different bands. But now, now,

Now he wants to go inside because I always thought, you know, jazz is the black man's music. And jazz history is so short, you got to know all of it. Why not? It's a short history. And you go, you know, James P. You know, go back to James P. and get all that, you know, get everything. James P. Johnson, just go back and get all, you know, you be played, go, just get everything. Jazz is such a short and rich history.

we can't just learn one error of it and think we got it all. We can't just copy people solo and think we got it all. You got to go back to jazz. I mean, I know bass players, people talk about jazz before chord changes. I mean, guys have been playing jazz for a while. They didn't even know what to call it. So I'm lucky enough to have known some of these musicians that are gone, dead and gone now.

But to go back and talk to people like I was just talking about, Extra Gordon, Johnny Griffin, you know, going back to people who really, James Ramey, from Texas to bass player. He's talked about jazz before it changes. I'm like, wow, a friend of Steve McCall, you know. Do you feel as though we're in danger of what they say losing the recipes? Perhaps because, you know, but jazz is blues, you know. Hanging around with Taj Mahal, he's a student of the blues, you know, and he's probably

one of the older, significant blues artists out here still. So we gotta go back, when we're talking about going back to our roots, we got to deal with the blues too. And most great jazz artists, there's a lot of blues in what they do. Duke Ellington, you know, Count Basie,

there's a lot of blues up in there. You know, you go back to Jimmy Lunsford, there's a lot of blues up in there, you know. I mean, it's what makes us different than other bands. Like, if you think of some of the more successful white bands in the history, the thing that's different about the black bands, that there's a lot of blues in there.

I think that reminds me of Leroy Jones. That's what we learn from him. That's right. That's right. Like my opinion of musicianship today is that we're doing too much. I would like musicians of my age and, you know, musicians that I see now, there's a lot of overplaying because no one knows how to jail with each other. as a unit. But, you know, I also know that there's not often opportunities for bands to even

play together unless, you know, if you're in church one day out the week, you're going to do everything with the kitchen sink. But what specifically do you look for in a musician that you know that they have it? Well, it depends on the instrument. It's like the band I have now. Luke Stuart, he's starting to become one of the well-known bass players out. He reminds me a lot of Fred Hopkins, you know. I mean, people who really play with soul, you know, I mean, not just, okay, the education in music these days, I hear a lot of notes, but I'm not sure that they're all true. Okay, so I hear people say that, and I wonder, like, what set of ears are you listening to that, because I want to know that as well?

With a bass player, I want somebody who really is there to support me. I mean, there's bass players that want to get up in your range and play what you're playing. And that's not what the function of the bass. For me, the bass is really what swings the band. The drummer swings the band too, but with a good bass player, it really can happen, you know. And from the drummer, you know, just today, as far as jumps have gotten to this point, point today with the, between, you go from Max Roach, you go to Sunny Murray, you go to Rashid Ali, you go to Steve McCall, you go to, you go to Buhana, you go to, different drummers, great,

great drummers, you know, Philly Joe Jones, you know, who I play with. You look for different things in a drummer than you look for in the bass player, but if you put the two of them together, they don't always have to be playing exactly the same thing. It's, it's like in funk where the bass drum and the bass are playing the same thing and then people say that's a group no that's not necessarily it in jazz they have to compliment one of another and and to me the bass and the drums are the rhythm sex the piano is something else the piano is more of a uh independent in the band i mean he he or she colors as long as they don't get in my space you know because see i've

told people say, well, you know, I've had some great piano players that I've recorded with, you know, can you imagine having to fire the great John Hicks or having to, having to, not fire, but not call back? I never fire anyone. I just don't call them back. I mean, how do you, how do you say, okay, I've had Don Pullen. I've done some wonderful things with Don, but after you make a certain amount of records, I don't care how good your band is, and how many tunes you, It's going to end up being the same racket after a while. So you've got to change. Otherwise, you won't have the longevity that I've had.

I mean, I play with Randy Weston, play with Jackie Byard, I play with John, I play with Don, I'll play with David Rell. And they all are wonderful, but you've got to keep moving. You can't be stagnant in what rhythm section you hire. Now I'm playing with Martha Sanchez on piano. She's from Madrid. And she brings a whole other thing into the music. Maybe a little more studied approach than John Hicks.

Maybe not as syncopated rhythmically as John Hicks or Don Pullett. But she's heard them both. So, you know, it's a different kind of piano. I like playing with Lafayette Gilchrist as well. And I like playing with D.D. Jackson. That's a whole other thing. So there's a lot of great piano players. It's a piano town.

So you put the rhythm section together, and I look for people now that are half my age. Well, you mentioned D.D. Jackson. Were you playing with D.D. Jackson way before? I hooked up with D.D. Jackson, and I was with Justin Time in Canada, that record company. He was with them, too. Did you bring D.D. Jackson to us, or did we? I knew we did. Maybe Rich did, because maybe.

Yes, I did. It was me. Okay. I was about to say, how did D. It was me. It was me. Totally. I called Rich and say, hey, man, I got something for you here. You guys going to do this classic album.

There it is. That was my gift to Richie. And you guys. You work with everybody. I mean, if they work with you, then I know they're great. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show, isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also is the co-host of the Away

End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game, and I fell in love. On our new podcast, the away end, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. and I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auer Kohn and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know, that's a lot. to break down. Gorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a married man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show.

I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise. The drama, the alliances, and the team everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game.

As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk. Talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with

the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself, and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, Ernest, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, earn your leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship. From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand. Because the truth is, most people will never talk how money really works. But once you understand the system, you can start to build within it.

That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation. If you want to learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner, earn your leisure is the podcast for you. Listen to earn your leisure on the I-heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

This is what I always wanted to know, because I'd never, it's hard to find any of the albums with them, and it's weird to ask you, like, your opinion on a musician or not. I didn't know that you worked with Alu Dara. Oh, yeah. Oh, Olu Dara. I know of him, but I don't know. Well, we went on my first European tour, we went to Holland and we did 30 concerts.

And my band was Olu Dara and Philip Wilson. So that's another long story. But anyway, Olu Dara is fantastic. And then when the wildflowers thing came, they did the whole wildflowers thing, Olu was picked out to continue on and to do a big record. for Alan Douglas. All right. Yeah.

And so Alan Douglas was, he produced, after the Wildflower session, he produced the last poets and also Olu Dara. And so we were all in, a lot of people that was in the Wildflowers, they put a band together and we, man, we were in studio for, for a seem like months and we got, we got paid some good money during that time. I mean, it wouldn't be good money now. But we were in the studio for a long time. and O'Loo was so brilliant, he kept us in the studio.

And the record never did come out. Man. I mean, we must have been in there for months. I mean, and so in my head, I said, O'Loo is a cat because he knows how to run these cats. And he did. I mean, we were in the studio for months after the wildflowers. Okay.

And the record never did come out. They even had Stanley trying to produce. It didn't even come out. So somewhere on this earth, there's some... They exist, some great things. I had a couple of songs on it. I had one tune, The Last of the Hip Man, they wanted to use. And they played the hell out of it.

We even had Bernard Purdy come in there for a while. A lot of people, you know, a lot of people, they tried different drummers because, I don't know. They tried a lot of different musicians. Probably 40 musicians played on that, on that. It must have went on for six months. If only there was a jazz label to. I'm on it. You're literally on it right now.

What year was that? Well, this track where Wildflowers came out. That must have been 70, oh, 77, 78. I don't know. You look it up. For listeners out there, yeah, Oly Dora is his father. Yeah, that's him playing on Life's Bits. That's him playing the trumpet solo.

Olu is great, man. He played my octet. I mean, I played in a couple of his bands. His Ocrow Orchestra. You remember when he used to throw out okra no he had a bag

for the okra and he would throw it out in the audience okra ohra wow that's an angle I never once thought

of what's the reason for that well his name of the band was okra orchestra oh so he oh there you go

for the cats that you've played with and I've seen you know Butch Morris Reggie Workman like all these cats that you've played with

what is a good living for a working jazz musician in the 80s. Like, is the purpose to find a unit that will be hopefully picked up to tour the European circuit? Because I would imagine that between May and, say, August, if you're a jazz musician, you're going to spend your summer in Europe. Well, I have to go back to the 80s to answer that because during the 80s, everything

was cash. It was different. See, it was cash, you know. I mean, what I did in the 80s was to have my octet and my quartet and sometimes big band in the world's saxophone quartet. To juggle all those together, I would go to Europe, for instance. I could have a promoter in Scandinavia to handle Scandinavia. I had a guy in France that did all in France. I had an, Archie is called Archie in Italy.

You know, I give them all two weeks, two weeks here, two weeks here, a week here, blah. And I just say, look, man, you know, I need blah, blah, blah, such and such for my band. I got to pay my band X amount thousands a week, and I just, man, it was different now. It's not like this now. This one I was doing between myself and Kunay Mwanga. we covered a lot of territory and we paid a lot of people that's what I could say

it was extraordinary sometimes we go to a country we do six weeks in Europe we come back and go into a major club for a week and then at the end of the week we're in the studio so people like Reggie Workman

you mentioned Reggie Workman this is a great bass player who he's always there He's hard work. His name suits him because he's a real work man. You know, you could depend on him. Then that was Dr. Art Davis, you know, great bass player. Dr. Art, see, he was one of the cats that didn't want to use an amp.

He was from the old school because he could play. A wood versus... Yeah, yeah, but you could still hear him. Right. And then the word was out that the cast had to start using, playing with an amp, you know. So he was one of the ones that would be... existed a long time. And I remember going to his house up in Croton, New York, and his wife was working at a hospital, psychiatric hospital, and he started working there, too. And she wanted me to

give him a salary. I was like, she thought, I don't know what she thought I was, John Coltrane. I don't know who she thought I was. Well, you got to pay my husband X amount of thousand dollars a year, and I want to see it. His kids got to see him go to work every day. I'm like that. I'm like, Oh, and it was a high amount. And I don't know, I didn't know if I could do that. That's why he'd enjoined my band. I mean, he played in my band, but, I mean, maybe I could have paid him that, but I didn't add it all up.

I didn't know if I could do it, if I could make that or not. You know, people have demands that they put on me once they see my name in the paper and this and that. And I wasn't ready for all that to tell you the truth. I was just like, you know, trying to make the ends meet and myself. How taxing is it because of your level of creativity, which I assume, you know, if you're not familiar people, if you ever see David Murray's name in your town or in your country or whatever, please, like, go see this legend perform. But, you know, I also know that for the decades I've known you, you've always led projects, you know, you've led your own trio, quintet, whatever, your orchestra,

a world tax. How taxing is it to be the business guy, to be the responsible guy for your band, to organize things, like make sure your guys can sleep somewhere, eat somewhere, that sort of thing, their predium, and on top of that, be in a mind space that you're still creating? Well, I don't do that anymore. I mean, that was... You used to do it. I used to do it. I used to do it. It was difficult, but, you know, I spent a lot of time in bars. I don't know how I did it. I guess having that youthful energy helped.

Being able to talk a whole bunch of crap was, you know, and the whole other thing was I always, in terms of records and recordings, I always had to make whoever was the small company that was going to make a record for them. I always used to have to make them think it was their idea. And then they would do it. I might be. Steve, you remember that time? We were he just going to do the plum sequel record?

Yeah. That was my idea. Right. Well, yeah, it's because I asked that simply because, like, if you've seen Quincy Jones' Listen Up Documentary, the thing that actually led him to pop music was the fact that, you know, one bad tour, one mismanaged tour could almost. put you in a position where, you know, he was getting aneurysms because he realized that he was responsible for, you know, orchestra, 30 people.

Tell me about it. Didn't figure in hotels and flights and all those things. And he had to get a day job as an A&R. Believe me, I understand. And I did see it. I understand that one time we went on a tour, we went out west. We went to Chicago. We played Chicago Fest.

Kune, my manager at the time, he got ripped off at the hotel. The chain maize ripped him off some of the band's money, and we were on our way out to Denver to play at the Blue Note, and then they canceled on the way out there. We ended up playing at that Buddhist place out there in Denver. The guy at the Peace Church in New York, on 9th Street, the second hour. No, no, no.

It was a Buddhist place. it's a real Father Divine or No no it was Buddhist It wasn't Oh okay It's actually a famous place

It's in Colorado In Colorado Yeah Anyway we swung around We went to California We came back around Texas and we played at the place Arnette was associated

In Dallas Fort Worth And then we came to New York When I got back to New York Oh DeBan $15,000 And And doing that time, I was a lot, you know, some money. And so I had the Monday nights at the Sweet Basel.

So I was paying the cats on the back door from the tour and the cats on the stage. I was juggling. It was hard. Robin Peter and Pay-Paul. Yeah, I was Robin Peter and Pay-Paul. And I finally got it off me, you know, because I couldn't have that reputation. I mean, we could blame some of that on those chambermaids at the Blackstone Hotel in Chicago. Yeah, it was really.

I mean, it wasn't easy to doing all that. But now I have help, you know. My wife Francesca, she's been very helpful over these last few years tomorrow's our anniversary. The namesake for the project, right? Yeah. Yeah. So now she does a lot of my business and she doesn't want to because she has her own Thai business going on. And it's starting to pick up and I'm going to have to find some new issues.

agencies, bigger agencies to deal with, so we could kind of manage it a lot better, you know. But as time goes on, hopefully it will get easier and easier, so I can just relax and deal with music. So what's the climate now for the jazz musician? Again, living in Europe in the early 90s, jazz music everywhere, like the roots ourselves, were essentially just jazz musicians. We were doing all those festivals, we've done a lot with you. However, you know, I know time moves on. And when time moves on, something might get lost in the rearview mirror.

So what I would like to do now is more or less, do less but more substantial gigs and have time in between. I don't really want to do the 26 nights out of 30. if I could help it. Of course, I will, if I must, but I'd like to have the luxury of being able to play somewhere at a nice festival, wait a couple of days and three days

and then play it another one and move around a little easier. But, you know, sometimes the demands, you know, change that idea. I don't need all the gigs. That's gigs that come to me that I kind of pass off to other people and say, yeah, well, one time I did,

I had an article came out in one of the papers, Times or something. They said, big fish and small pond, you know. When you get those kind of articles, it just makes you say, well, what am I doing? I mean, one time I seen a picture of myself and I had this triple-breasted suit, you know, and finally the lapels is pointing at the camera.

And I said, this is working too hard, man. I had to see that picture to understand that I was just draining myself. I'm blowing hard every night. And see, James Butler Oldman told me, says, you know, David, you know, there's a lot of cats playing saxophone out here, but you might be the one of the only ones is free. And that's what I want. I just want to be free. I want to be free in my music. I don't want to be a bebop player.

I don't want to be an avant-garde. I want to be free on any music that I play. At least for you, where you are now, what's the easiest lane for you? And I'm asking in terms of, I would assume that if you're doing BOP, that it's more about your scale knowledge. But when you're doing your free jazz, like your physical stamina has to be, I assume, in tip-top shape because you're blowing the shit out that horn. So for me, the most challenging thing is that

to have, is to play freedom on top of everything, with everything. And be part, if I'm playing bebop, I want to play bebop, and I want to be in it, and I want to be above it at the same time. Whatever, if I played with Bob Whirdy other night at De Palo and Jamaladee, and that was a wonderful show. Jamalding in Tacoma. Yeah. Nice, okay.

Yeah. Shout out through Jamo. And that benefit they had the other day. Right. It was a wonderful show. But I pride myself in bringing freedom into any kind of music. When I played in church, I was free. I got it to the point where nobody cared after a while

because they liked what I was playing. I think every music has its difficulties. I love bebop music. My special gift is to be able to play any kind of music because the more music that you learn how to play, the more people can play with. When I did the Nat King Cole in Espaniol, and we played at the Sal Play-L in Paris with Omara Pertundo,

and I wrote string arrangements, had 10 strings, 12 strings, and a five-piece horn section, and Omara Portuna. Man, when we finished that show, we was ready to go to Vegas. That was probably as commercial as I could probably ever be, but at the same time, I'm playing freedom. And see, that's what's special about me. and I've been criticized for it, but that is my cradle. I want freedom in everything I do.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for Raw. unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Cliverts Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars. And now, I guess also is the co-host of The Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist. And John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old.

I watched every game. and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years

since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, its hope, it's heartbreak,

and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Orsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew.

Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of House House. Why show, I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real House Wise franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the team everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment.

To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth. starting with the mindset shifts, too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself

and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect, network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcast presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. This is my best friend Janet.

And we have been joined at the hips since high school. Absolutely. Now a redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips, wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and dreams. Sidebar. Why did you get hard

seltzer instead of beer? What I had a bogo? Well, then you got it. Do you want a white collar something here? Just take it. What are y'all doing? Microphones? Are you making a rap album? I would. Come on. Can you believe? I would buy it. Cuts through the defense like a hot

knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious. Oh, you're lucky. I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You are. I'm not a killer. I love this team, and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on.

Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think our listeners might be curious about the Ilydiladelphia Half-Aidav... Appearance of Dave Murray in 96. We were trying to figure out if we were going to make a say-what man, a running joke on every Roots album. But for the first four years, like the idea of Tariq,

freestyling and scatting to each instrument on stage was like one of our ways to pass the time on, you know. All right, we got three hours to do a show. That's David on you say to a man. Well, no, no,

I'm just saying that we, you know, we did it on organics and then we did it on do you want more. Oh, and Richard was like, well, let's do it on Iladolph Half-Life. So we were doing it,

but, you know, Dorek was kind of in his rebellious stance of, hey, all that jazzy stuff is now in the rear-view mirror. Like, I got to earn five mics in the source, and this ain't it. So we tried it, then it just fell, kind of fell apart. But it's so weird. Like, you've done so many gigs, something that might mean something to me, you might forget about.

But one of our first years at the Tonight Show, I remember we did a gig, you, me, Fernham Reed, Ornette Coleman. Out in Brooklyn. No, no, no. We flew to London. Oh, right, right. When they did that festival, when they featured Ornette. Yoko Ono, it was like the free jazz madness.

That's right. Like, literally, all I remember was that this was like maybe the fourth month of Fallon. and it was a Friday show. We did the last of the note and we didn't have time to like even run and change our clothes. Like we ran straight to the airport in our show clothes.

That's right. I remember that. Got off the plane in our show clothes, went through customs, waited an hour for them to damn near anal probus. And then go straight to the venue and rehearse like three hours and so.

For you though, can you talk about playing with Ornette Coleman? Because I kept asking at the time, like are we going to rehearse with them or we just play. He's just like, no, man, we just play what we feel. Yeah, I remember because when Arnaz showed up, we were doing like a sound check, I guess.

And Arnett, he didn't want to do the sound check. Right. So he had me check his mic. And so he gave me a listener right there while checking his mic because he had a very particularly where he wanted the shrillness of his horn to come out. He says, yeah, do your saxophone like that. I said, no, that's okay on that.

But I got it, though. I got it. I got it. Because I was always friends with Ornette, and he cared for me. You know, because I knew Bobby Bradford, of course, and Charles Moffitt. You know, they all go back to Fort Worth. But, yeah, Arnett didn't need to rehearse because Arnett's going to play Arnette depends on whatever anybody else is doing.

He's going to be pure Arnette if he's playing with 13 whales. it's going to be pure on that. When I was sort of shedding heavy with Chris McBride and some George Butler-esque projects, they told me getting to Andrew Cyro, Rich actually gave me the record, the Shaquille's Warrior album. Could you talk about the making of that record?

Because that was one of the first records that Rich was like, study this record. Or Shaquille's one or two. That's two. The one that came out in 91. Okay, that must have been one. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, that's when Don, we hear. Don Pulling and Andrew Cyril. Yeah. Stanley Franks. And Stan Franks on guitar. These are my childhood friends. We used to be with the notations of Seoul when I was growing up in the Bay Area.

Yeah, we used to back up a lot of different groups, you know, Barbara Traigler and the mnemonics, different people. R&B. Yeah, so playing with Don, because I had done on piano, but I didn't understand that he really, it wasn't revealed to me at that time that he played organ like that. His experience in the church was very similar to mine. So much soul in his organ playing.

And I remember when we did the first album, and it was quite successful during that time because we were on a run. We went to Japan. I remember they brought an organ. They bought a Hammond B3, but it was one of those very new kind that came with a big manual. We were sitting there at this club in Tokyo,

and Don didn't even get up. Don wouldn't even open the manual. He said, that organ, you could take that back. He said, go get me one with some cigarette burns on it. Give me a real, give me a real, give me a real hammered organ. I'm not going to do that. That's all gadgets and stuff like that. And so they finally bought one.

And we played six nights at this club. And it was wonderful. Wow. And that was a great experience. And when we did Shotgills 2, that's when Don told me he was sick. And so that was a different kind of date. But he waited. Don was a kind of cat who would, it was always a wild card with Don.

he would wait until he got in the studio and start writing a tune and by time the session was over that was a hit tune it was always the number one tune he had and it was a wait the way he dealt with things very private man very very deep reader he was a real reader I'm a reader too you know you could in jazz musicians we don't have a lot of people maybe readers but but you can sense

when you're around these people the conversations that we had on the road and very deep thinking person. Reader in terms of philosophy, or you're talking about notes? Notes, notating. I'm talking about philosophy. Philosophy in life, okay.

No, it's just books in general. I mean, I try to make sure all of my children are readers, you know. I mean, you can tell a person who reads and a person who doesn't read. I mean, you know, I mean, that's part of my growing up. I mean, I was heavily influenced by a lot of rights. I wanted to be a writer, like I said before. And you highly educated too.

So it's important. It's important that. But he was that kind of a person. And, you know, John Hicks too, you know, when you're around people like that, it just kind of inspires you to know that you're on the right path perhaps, you know. You have a compromise that you want to make that are personal to you. And you have to keep your mind filled with many things, you know. I mean, like I'm doing a blues project with Ishmael Reid, and that keeps me a lot of times when I, you know, I always go to him when I need some inspiration in terms of words.

And, you know, I have my favorite writers and I constantly read. You mentioned earlier, you talked about SunRah. He had a singer that in his orchestra, June Tyson. Yeah, I knew June. Yeah, talk about her. I loved her voice. And what was she like? Oh, I used to love her.

I loved her, and I loved her space dancers too, because Gerdemey Grosner, you know, Mickey Davidson, Cheryl, some wonderful people around SunRoy. I mean, when I met SunRoy, I was out in California, and they played at the Transcendental Meditation, some kind of place on Telegraph Avenue. And he started talking to Butcher and I, and we closed the joint. I mean, it was 3 o'clock. everybody's left and he's sitting there just talking to me and Butch and just his philosophy, you didn't say much back to Sun-Ral, you said, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah, right on. Words, you know, they wouldn't even saying that then. But, you know, I was like, wow, man. And he'd take you too many places. He always hit on me to play in this band. I was like, what time he always hit on me, I was like, no, man, I got a family, man. I can't, I can't do that. You're trying to get beat?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, you know. If you can mention, like, what would have been a bad gig back in the day? On that level, like, nah, it's shaky. He doesn't pay these musicians. Oh, bad geek. One of those gigs when nobody shows up doing loft jazz, sometime, you know, sometime you'd be very successful. Lof jazz was basically on the door.

But when you were successful, yeah. Because I used to have some skates and I had a backpack and I had a tape and I had things to put posters up everywhere. And I got pretty good at it. If you got a voice choice, you got a little thing, a little blurb in the times, you might have a packed house. So people started giving me their flyers and I became an emissary for like, you know, loft jazz. But a bad gig would have been When you didn't get a voice choice Or something happened

Technical like that And you didn't get the publicity out But most of the times when you did You would get the returns But every once in a while It would come up flat Were you friends with Robert Christigal At the voice?

Not really I knew him I knew him A major fan of yours Yes he was No yes he was I knew him But I knew him mostly

through Stanley. And there was the guy at Soho News. There was other people that I knew very well. Chris Kyle was not in my generation, but I knew him. Of course I knew him. I knew everybody. Well, I'm obsessed with his writing as a critic.

And, you know, pretty much all his choices on jazz or whatever. Like, you're always at the top of his. Yeah. So that Stanley's influence on him? Probably and Gary Giddens, too, I would imagine. But Chris Kyle, no, he knew. what he was doing. Were there critics that irks you?

And that was Peter Ojo Grosso from the Southwood. They had receipts. And then there was, you know, the guy at the time. And so, anyway, people come and people go, but I knew most of the critics. I mean, I can remember all their names. But, you know, every once in a while you get blasted. I mean, I did a couple of string concerts. I got blasted a few times, yeah.

But it maybe go back and do a better job. David, we were talking about tunes before. Like how much your day has spent actually playing and practicing versus sitting and writing, composing? Like, what's the, how does that? He'd rather be practicing right now than talking to it. This man, absolutely. But like, because we were talking about like the actual physical art

of writing a tune versus just playing. Well, I'm kind of like, I guess I'm taking a break because I just made this album. And when I'm making an album, I usually come up with maybe 12, 13 songs, and I got to wheel it down to seven or eight maybe. So during COVID, man, I wrote so many tunes. I throw them away like airplanes, but, you know, it made no sense to write for a big band during that time because we couldn't even get a trio on the stage.

You know, I have a lot of big band music and orchestra music that I've written that there's no chance of playing it during this time. It would be great to have a resurgence of big bands. That would be fantastic. Those times are not, I'm lucky to get a quartet on stage, you know? You mentioned your desire to write. Do you have any of your things on manuscript or like have you written pieces? Writing in terms of fiction?

I assume that you're saying when you wanted to be a writer. Oh, well, that was when I was in high school in my first year in college. I don't even know where that stuff is. But as far as I didn't get that far. You want to know because when I had written my senior thesis in high school about Stanley's book that I was telling you before. And so when I met him, I gave it to him, and he read it finally, and he gave me a B-plus and threw it on the ground. He said, man, pick up your saxophone.

That was almost the end of my writing career. So I kind of got discouraged at that point, you know, so. But yeah, anyway, I'm close to the writers, is what I can say. Michael Nash and Kerry Williams and Taj Mahal and Bob Wearing myself. We've been working on this, this, um, musical for Satchel Paige for many years now. We're finally ready. The last time we tried to bring it out,

this other play called Damn Yankees came up. That was about 30 years ago. Nearly 30 years ago. So I think we've revised it and we're about to make another run at it. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also is the co-host of The Away End,

a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game, and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel

was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, its hope, it's heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important.

Listen to the away end with Daniel Alricone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts.

Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about. like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network

on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Orsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues. I like the bougie style of Housewives show.

I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real House Wise franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the T, everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it. I understand the game.

As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up? I'm Miles Turner. And I'm Brianna Stewart. And our podcast, Game Recognized Game has never been done before. Two active players giving you a real look at our lives and what we actually think on and off the court.

Nothing's off limits. We talk trade requests. What's the vibe of that when it's like your star player is like, well, I want to leave? And then actually now I'm going to stay. We talk tanking. I mean, honestly, like, I might get in trouble for this answer, but I think it's like definitely happening in the WBA. And yeah, we talk about our mistakes too. They pulled me to their side and was like, hey, man, we got a call last night, man.

You can't be rolling around the city like this tonight before games, no, you know, doing this, doing whatever. And of course, family stories. And we're like, Mommy, why did you miss that? Mommy, do you play basketball? Check out Game Recognized game with Stuy and Miles on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaking of Bob Weir, can you talk about your forays into other genres? Like, knowing that you played with the Grateful Dead, I mean, of course, there's the Bay Area connection that you two have. How long have you been playing with them?

It kind of started with the Satchel Page thing project. And Michael Nash is the one that brought me into it. They gave me a grant. And I did a record of Grateful Dead music with my octet. I don't know if you remember that. But it came out and it was kind of popularized their songs and they had a big laugh about it. And I did a gig out at the Fillmore West

and Bob Weir and Phil Lest sat in with me and at the last minute it was completely sold out. So anytime they play with me and then I played with them at Yoshis one time and they showed up and it was completely soon. Whoa, okay. So yeah, I mean anytime, anything, thing with the Grateful Dead come up, there's so many deadheads in this world. I mean, I played a

wedding one time, some Grateful Dead fans that just come to me, and they put their rings on their toes, and it was fantastic. And they paid us some money. It was fantastic. It was fantastic. It was a lot of money. It was great. It was out of Martha's Vineyard. Yeah, it was very nice. So these little, I've never really got paid to play with the Grateful Dead, but Things come in different packages. Right. You know, things from the dead that come in other farms, you know. I'll get called with this and called with that.

I just did a gig in Washington for people that knew the dead. Play one for Jerry, man. You know, it's always like that. The gift that keeps on giving. Yeah. Okay, so you've done, what's the name of the project? Sun Moon is a solo project. It was him and, it was two musicians, right?

No, it's just, well, it's two instruments, but it's just David. He's playing tenor sax pieces and bass clarinet pieces, yeah. Okay, so when Steve first told me that you were doing a solo record, how does one plan for that? Because you've done solo shows by yourself before, correct? Yeah, I've made five solo albums. How? Well, one time in 78, I went to Paris.

At the time, it was Aki Shang-Gae, my freshman. My first wife. You said that was your first wife? What? Wait, time out. What? Wait. You were there pre-colored girls?

Wow. What? How come I didn't know this? We didn't. Sorry, David. I didn't mean to be sex, X, X, so surprise. I mean, that's cool. No, no, that's not pre-colored girls.

That's 77. Okay. It's the look for me. Right, right. Anyway. Mingus' mom was my second wife. Okay. And Francesca is.

is my fourth wife. A romantic. Nice. And Valerie in Paris was my third wife. Got it. Okay. So we were doing when the Mississippi meets the Amazon. I had done music for it.

And Tazaki, Jessica Haggardorn, and Tulani Davis. They dressed up like Billy Holiday with Gardinias, and they read their poetry where the Mississippi meets the Amazon. And it was at the public theater. It was just after we had done a photograph, which I also wrote the music for. And I had left that show. There are a lot of people in the show on the band. Jay Hogarth was in the band.

Michael Gregory Jackson was in the band. Farona Clough was in the band. A lot of good people. And anyway, I left the show because me and Intazaki, we were married three months. Wow. But we had the marriage of the century, artist marriage of the century in Berkeley, California,

a place called Mepinsey. And the marriage didn't last long. We went to Maui for the honeymoon. Yeah. So that was doing a time, you know. I wrecked their porch and all kind of shit. Oh, shit. I mean, it was another time, you know.

But I went to. Paris and I did a concert at the Theater Moufdard. And I did two nights solo there. And out of those two nights solo, we made a record. We sold one to Calac Records in London, the red records in Italy, and Marge records in Paris. So that was my first three solo albums, organic saxophone, conceptual saxophone and surreal saxophone. And then I did two other solo albums in Florence.

This guy, Checo-Mino, volume one and volume two. That makes five solo records that I made. And then it's yours. It's a six. So doing a solo record or playing a gig solo, is that the ultimate freedom? Or is it better?

to have others to bounce around and bounce off? When I was younger, I used to set up three microphones on the stage. One over here, one in the middle of the stage, and one here. And when I come out, and I would play three different personalities at each microphone. I did this in London at the Bracknell Festival one time, and I played in front of the Revolutionary Ensemble with Leroy Jenkins and those guys. You remember those guys?

And Ornette Coleman played after us. And I have to say I got house. But it was, and I don't know how I, the concept of using the three personalities and three ways of playing, the saxophone. The center stage, I only played like ballast. I was like that, you know. On the right, I played another kind of way. Over here, I played a different way.

And then finally, as a concert, and I would move. And I was much younger then. And I had these crape shoes, and I could move kind of like basketball kind of moves. It was more physical than it is now. I enjoyed it better than I do now. I don't really like to play solo now. But I'm not that athlete because I used to do decathlon, you know. And I won the strength competition in the whole Bay Area.

Are you mean for real? the decathlon. Yeah. I mean, I was good at sports. Up until a certain point, then guys got big. All right. But I was really big when I was young. I'd say up until 15, I probably was pretty good after least, 16.

But then, you know, music took over. So, yeah, solo concert is a physical act for me. I mean, I've seen other people play. I'm not going to say any names. I've seen other people play solo. And it's just like boring, you know. I mean, it's like, especially if it's one of those head trips, you know, I, for me, if you're going to play solo, you got to blow the hell out of it. You can't just be like, dude, didn't wait.

Like Chicago musician. Boop. Yeah. I got to tell a joke somewhere in there. No, no, I just admit, you're the most intense soloist I've ever seen. Yeah, I just can't. I can't watch it. If I can't watch it, how am I going to do it?

You know, I can't sit and watch. Like I'm in Europe, I see guys play solo in Europe, Europeans, black guys, different people. They got this heady approach. It's very intellectual. I say, it's only one guy up there. Why am I waiting for a note to come? I don't get it. You know it was interesting when we made this record.

He had some song I did. He hasn't some songs that already existed, but a lot of it is, most of it is improvised. He asked me, name something for me to play about, to write on the spot about. Just for example, one of the songs called Garcia, because we mentioned Jerry Garcia, and then he played for 15 minutes,

expressing himself about his experiences with Jerry and things along those lines. So it's fascinating to watch somebody, try to attempt that solo experience, whether it's on a stage or in a recording studio, it's so daring. You're so, can you be more exposed really or to just show your creativity

when you're all by yourself? I don't mind that. You know, I work sometimes with this artist named Nasty Ostrowski. She lives up in the court, New York. And we did a, We did a duet concert, you know, with an action painter. And I've done a few in Europe, you know.

One with this brother from Guadalupe. Very interesting to do action. I mean, the action, you know, musicians, I think, we're supposed to be some kind of representatives of our time. We're supposed to be able to, not that were sages are high-level. gurus or anything like that, but we should be able to, it's like a good painter, we should be able to interpret what's happening politically or socially around us. We should be able to, I mean,

there's many issues, I mean, this is what Questlove does. He's doing that, but maybe they could hear it in certain kind of improvisations. So we got to see him improvise on his own and then we got to see him improvise with two other people, you and Ray Angry. The most amazing thing was watching either you or Ray or David come up with an idea and then hear the response from the other improvising music. For me, it was very difficult too because to try to keep a melodic motif going and making it up on the spot, I almost was sometimes doing that recording. I felt like I had to write melodies as I was improvising, something that people could hold on to because I'm really a true believer of the song form, even though people categorize my music as avant-garde,

but what I am is a person who's truly into the song form. Melody is very important to me. And what they were throwing at me, what Questlove was throwing at me, it wasn't easy. I mean, I'm trying to translate his rhythms. And then I'd play something. Then Ray would do something. And then it was like a triangle that was happening. I was just trying to keep up with what they were throwing me, too.

Because it was a lot of fastballs and curveballs. Meanwhile, I'm trying to just hang on. I was just thinking. I was like, so Amir, how did you go in thinking, approaching that? I mean, look, Steve convinced me to leave the farm. there was still like mid quarantine, right? Or at least...

Yeah, towards the end, but yeah. Yeah, it was like the end of it, but still, like, I mean, that's in the air. And then, like, to even be creative in that time period, which is, I think the real reason why I agreed to do it, I think I would have invented an excuse to get out of it because I think there's a point where maybe after 2004 or 2005,

I really just stopped trying to chase the dragon of, you know, virtuoso musician and that sort of thing. And so normally I would have said no to that. But, I mean, you caught me right in the position where it was like, all right, well. I think everybody was challenged, yeah. I wanted to get out the house and, you know, just have fun. So I was like, all right, well, let me make a fool of myself in front of it. If David is going to take me serious, then I know it's. it's good.

And actually, you know, it's... Oh, it was good, clean fun, believe me. But it was to work, too. I would love to do it again. Part of me also wants to take it live, so, you know. That would be dope. That's not wondering if y'all would ever do that. Live would be fantastic.

Well, we're supposed to do some blue-note shows when the physical product comes in next few months. Well, there we have. I guess my last question to you before we wrap is, what is the future of jazz? I already say that. But for you, like, are there any bucket list projects that you'd love to get into while you're still active? Well, I really would like to do an opera, if not the Pushkin.

See, the thing about the Pushkin and the whole thing about the war in Ukraine. It kind of put a damper. It kind of put a damper on it for the moment. But when I was looking toward Pushkin, I was looking towards creating another mulatto hero for black people. Somebody who was a true poet and he was part black. So anyway, but that and the satchel page I would like to complete. And I have many aspirations.

if I were to be able to get some grants, I like to write for larger ensembles, certainly. And when I say large, I mean larger than octet. I like to write for... I have some orchestra music, and I like to write. Oh, yeah, we can't afford an orchestra at my label, but we can keep doing solo records. Anyway, I'll be happy just to play with my quartet

for the next couple of years and see them grow, get ready for this new album. going to come out and be on tour with that and Keoghiel El Sabar and a duet and play with you guys. Fantastic. You and Ray, that would be a dream. Well, thank you, man. It was a dream playing with you. And, you know, I am not, even though I'm world famous for exaggerating.

I have a word statement. I still maintain that you are one of the greatest. living musicians, and I appreciate you for sit and talking to us. David Murray, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening to Questlove Supreme, hosted by Amir Kuzloff Thompson, Laya Sinclair, by Coleman,

Sugar Steve Mandel, and unpaid Bill Sherman. Executive producers are Mir Kuzloff Thompson, Sean Gee, and Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin,

cousin Jake Payne, Elias St. Clair. edited by Alex Conroy. Produced by IHeart by Noel Brown. What's Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skid. my basketball and college football journey or my career in sports media. Well now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw unfills of conversations with athletes, creators,

and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. This is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far, but I'm John Green, co-hosted the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel.

On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the Away End with Daniel Alarcon and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey there, folks, Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes here. And we know there is a lot of news coming at you these days from the war with Iran to the ongoing Epstein fallout, government shutdowns, high-profile trials, and what the hell is that Blake lively thing about anyway? We are on it every day, all day. Follow us, Amy and TJ for news updates throughout the day. Listen to Amy and T.J. on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.

We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body. having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre,

as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. There's an economic component to communities thriving. there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they failed. Listen to eating while broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.