The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Johnny Marr

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

One of the greatest guitarists of all time, Johnny Marr, joins Questlove Supreme to talk about his playing style and extensive career. The Roots' Captain Kirk Douglas joins the conversation as a special guest co-host. Marr speaks about growing up in Manchester, England, and co-founding The Smiths. He touches on his time with Modest Mouse and The Pretenders, giving away famous guitars and being embraced by diverse audiences. This conversation is a thoughtful and revealing look at a true master craftsman passionate about all types of music.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. This is my friend. I wouldn't go that far. But I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, Football, soccer is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. May 2nd, Country's biggest stars will be in Austin, Texas. At our 2026 IHeart Country Festival presented by Capital One. Tickets are on sale now. Get yours before they sell out at Ticketmaster.com. That's Ticketmaster.com.

Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen What's up? Ladies and gentlemen Fuck it, man Let's just start tossing. Go. I'll say that

this is another episode I got to remember who I am. My name is Questlove. This is Questlove Supreme. We have the Supreme team with us. Sugar Steve. Unpaid Bill. Why?

Yeah, you look a little different today. Yeah, well, you know. Don't say nothing. No, theme song. No, we don't do theme songs on the Zoom. Oh, okay. Okay, so ladies and gentlemen, this is a special Questleff Supreme. This conversation, in my opinion, is probably six to seven years overdue.

I first met our guest of the show. Maybe like two months after his memoir set the boy free was released. And I distinctly remember my guitarist in the roots, Captain Kirk Douglas, say hello, Captain Kirk. Hi, hey, what's up? Yeah, what's up? He had asked me if I read the book at the time. And at that time, I didn't. And with great intensity, you know, Kirk was like, dude, you got to get him on the show.

Like, he's tailor made for a nerd haven like Questlove Supreme. and I remember my response to Kirk was, wait, you listen to Questlove Supreme? And actually he was right, because around the pandemic, when I went on my book reading rabbit hole, I'll say that his book was probably one of the few non-self-help books I used to escape whatever it was that 2020 was. and Kurt couldn't have been more right. The musicianship of our guest has kind of been the Sonic Lighthouse or North Star to many a guitarist or songwriter, you'll be pressed to find any band, at least worth their grain of salt.

That has been formed that at least, you know, doesn't name check our guest as a major influence on their creativity. Of course, he has most notably co-founded the Smiths, but he has played and collaborated with such luminaries as, of course, modest mouse. I have so many questions about you in Portland, like my all-time favorite thing. Yeah, right. The pretenders, of course, the Cribs, his supergroup with Bernard Summer and Pet Shop Boys, Neil Tenet, his work with Beck, Crowded House, the Avalanches, even the the, I love saying the, the.

And of course. Billy Bragg, Billy Bragg. And of course, also, um, just work with Hans Zimmer and Farrell in the, uh, the scoring of Inception. I will say like his,

his haunting arpeggio kind of guitar texture pretty much is to find a generation. And we're giving the honor to have a musician talk, a musician rant, if you will, with the rift. Yeah, he's gone now. You took way too long.

Intro was too long. He was like, fucking, I'm out. That's my time. My guitar collection because I'm done with this shit. All right, he's back. All right, we're good. All right. No, for real.

We're happy to nerd out with an iconic songwriter, author, guitarist, producer, Johnny Marr, the Questlove Supreme. Thank you. It was so nice. Thank you very much. Luke. Really great to see you again.

Thank you. I cook. How are you doing, man? Great. Were you speaking to us now? Where is this? Thank you for all that, Questlove. That was lovely to hear all that, all those friends of mine being mentioned.

I'm in the studio that's in my house. I have a kind of a big main studio that I've had for a number of years. And then the funny thing, I don't know whether you guys be able to relate to this as musicians, but I did this thing where after years, I've had a lot of you guys, having a pretty comprehensive home studio. When I moved out and I moved into this kind of old factory building in 2016, I ran around to everybody saying, I've seen the light. Get out of your house in the morning.

Drive to work. Go and do your day's work. Drive home. Don't, you know, get out of the house. Don't have a home studio. Well, now I have two studios. I have one in the house and I have one in a separate building. But this room was.

kind of modeled on one of the rooms that I was working with when I worked with Hans Zimmer. I just had a spare room in the house. House isn't particularly big, but with technology being the way it is these days, you can have a pretty decent mixing room. So I spend all the time that I'm supposed to be at home with the family of spending this room. Yeah. So I always wondered about that because I'm currently, you know, I waited three decades to do my first real,

purchase, if you will. I guess the only idiom I can use is I'm debating on whether or not I should shit where I eat. And I know the home studio is sort of a factor in many of creatives live, but part of me

also has the option to put the studio outside of the house. So that way, my house is my house and my studio is my studio. Yeah, I think rule of thumb really is if I don't know now, I like the discipline. of getting out and go out of work and there are a few of distractions.

This might sound obvious, but I think if you've got the choice of having your main proper workplace away from the house, I think that's better for the work. I do. If you can do that, if you're fortunate enough, because I think it gives you that kind of window of time when you want to, because look,

we're all human as inspired as we may be. I know, I know sometimes you get into these crazy deadlines and 12 hour, 40, an hour, whatever day, having that window of time when you your subconscious is saying, I need to make these decisions now because I'm going to get in the car and drive home at 9 o'clock, 9 p.m. or whatever it is and try and be like a human being. I think that's good for the work. All right. I'm pondering that. It's not silence. I keep forgetting this a podcast, so I have to

it's the sound of thinking. It's the sound of thinking. I'm like, hmm, I don't know. I think I have a concern and a fear that if I put my studio in the same place that I live, then, you know, I have boundary issues when it comes to personal life versus work. And I kind of enjoy this thing where they're far apart, but, you know, I don't know. No, that's what I'm saying. I think it's better to work away from your house, yeah, as a rule of thumb. But I think that thing, don't mean to be presumptuous, but that thing of, what you you know you you term boundary issues that i think that's just being a musician

of a certain type i've been very fortunate um in my personal life in that my family i've been with my wife since we were kids and um you know my family in the way they they just kind of get on board they wouldn't have it any other way um they fall in line yeah they got to just in case they might be listening to this. I mean, you mentioned Portland earlier, but that's a good example. When I joined Modest Mouse, that was a whole surprising episode

and the way that went down. But that was me following a musical hunch. And when Isaac Brockford and the band invited me over there. And, you know, I did what I did. I did the grown-up version of what I did when I was a teenager, which was falling with a bunch of people who were strangers. But it sort of felt like, it's got nothing to do with the fact that they were a big band

and I was known that managers weren't involved or any of that. I was stood in a room with a bunch of strangers 3,000 miles away and I found myself making music that felt really good that I couldn't identify. The one band, you know, it's like when you're a musician, you can hear bands and you can hear their influences. You know, you can hear a certain band and you go, oh, okay, well, the singer's doing Tom York, or she's doing Shakik Khan,

or the base player's doing flee or whatever, you know, whatever, you can hear these influences and it's all good. But with Modest Mouse, I had no idea where they were coming from. And I got the invitation from Isaac, and it was enigmatic and kind of a funny kind of invitation. And I said, okay, well, we'll go over there as an experiment for 10 days. And anyways, whole other story. But it went really gangbuses straight out of the gate,

we started writing, and it was inspired. I've got enough about me to know when it's really happening. But to get back to the point, I found myself just really loving what we were doing musically. I've been no idea what to call this music or any frame of reference. It just made me feel good in the way that when you're 15, you kind of go, I don't know what it is we're doing, but it feels good. It really was like that.

But my family were getting off on my enthusiasm. My wife was like, well, Johnny's buzzing. He's calling me from Portland and he's digging the place and I'm hearing about all this music they're making and I was sending over MP3s. My son was a fan of the band and they heard my enthusiasm and they were kind of like, okay, this is what we're doing for now then.

So I'm a life sort of, I guess because the people I'm involved with and because it's my living, you know, when we get back to this idea of work-life boundaries, I try to live, you know, as an older person, a little bit more humanely now and not be too crazy. I mean, you know, not be too sleep deprived. But everything we do is led by the music and what I'm doing, really,

by what dad is doing, and he's doing. So I'm very, very fortunate that I don't really, the work-life balance thing work is my life. So since you brought it up, so to hear you explain it, you were just to do a limited, maybe a week and a little bit, a week and a half of work with modest mouse.

and you liked it so much, you became a permanent couch guest in their proverbial metaphorical house and joined the band. An easier way to answer that question is that it was so intense by the time we'd written 19 tracks and gone to Mississippi and made an album and we'd become like this tight gang. It just would have been too weird to quit. There was a brotherhood. You know, you go through this project. So a 10 days turned into months

because I knew it was happening. I was like, this is a really interesting collection of people. The guys in the band and the people around the band were making a really good noise. We all like each other straight off. And this brotherhood happened. And this is what's happened in a few bands that I've been in. There was exactly the same.

And from the outside, it may look like I, you know, I've quit. I've joined a band. I'm a quitter, but I'm more of a serial joiner than I'm a serial quitter because those projects, when you get involved with people and you make an album, you get so invested and you talk about it so much and you're on the phone talking about the tracks and you're getting together and you're caring about it so much. By the time we finished recording the Monice Mouse album, I was still a guy from England, but it just would have been too weird to bail.

I just wanted to see it through. And I cared about the... the songs, I cared about the guys, I cared about about the record, and I care about how it was going to go when I was in. You got started in Mississippi and you ended up in Portland, or? No, we got started in Portland, and it got off to such a good start from the very first night with writing songs and jamming, which is something I don't really do with a lot of people. I always made a conscious decision when I was maybe 15 and, you know, and, you know, I was maybe 15, 1979, jamming for me was standing in a really damp cellar with a bunch of dudes who

would smoke too much hash, stuck on the one chord. And for like 25 minutes. That helped my songwriting because I then sort of said, okay, note to self, when you come to practice tomorrow, bring a couple of riffs or bring some chord changes or bring a direction. And then that sort of fell on me then to, and it helped me out as a songwriter. I mean, I love writing songs, but it was kind of a bit of a practical thing too, so I can jam with people, but as I say, in my career, I haven't really been called on to do that too much, but in Modis Mouse, where this collective, like six people happened to be six guys in that band with really different influences, each member of the band thought they

were doing, thought the band was something different. And so inspired. And that's a good thing, because in my mind, that's like my worst nightmare. Because you mentioned that if the bass player thinks that, okay, I'm Larry Graham or Flea, and I don't speak guitar language. And I know that your texture and your tone is like, probably like the most respected in the game. So, you know, it's kind of why I wanted Kirk to be on this episode, because

you know, I didn't even know into your book that Gretsch made guitars. You know what I mean? Wester, that is such a drummist thing to say. Totally. You think Gretz just makes drums? Are you saying Gretz was a guitar first before he was a drum? Pretty sure it was. Is this where I'm finding that out?

That's really funny. Hey, also, yeah, I hate to break it to you, but Zildjian made banjos. I'm joking. All right, episode over. Get a goodbye. That's pretty cheeky. Yamaha makes speedboats. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also is the co-host of the Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist,

and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team.

Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, it's hope, it's heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to The Away End with Daniel Auer Kohn and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future.

This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything. But at first, it was just like, you got to go get a real job.

There's an economic component to community striving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. And what I mean by fell is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I assume that if you're in the room that you're kind of the alpha, only because, you know, the band that you're most loved in your journey.

Yeah. sort of never used, like you were anti, well, I don't know if you guys were anti-synthesizer or whatever, but a lot of the weight fell on you as far as melodic and texture and tone. Do you often feel as though you have to be the alpha in terms of like determining where the melody goes or the musical direction? Well, it's interesting you use that term. Well, as you'll know, the chemistry of bands is both musical and personal. and I'd almost say, particularly in high-pressure situations, or bands who are big maybe, the personal chemistry is maybe even as important as the musical chemistry.

So my role in all the bands have been in has usually been the same. And in a way, I think on the one hand, alpha is an interesting way describing it, but my role is to let the singers think that they're alpha, really I'm running it. Real leaders are Jedi mind-trickers. Listen, I learned that from all the women in my life, very early on. Where they make you feel like you're the leader. I saw it with all the older women in my life, these great, absolutely great women.

And the guys knew it. By that, I mean, I have a very, I really care a lot. I mean, I don't try to train myself as a saint, but I bring a lot of enthusiasm to it. and a lot of energy to it. And, you know, and I really do give a shit. And obviously, the Smiths is the most notable because I've formed that band, and we've gone on to be very well-loved

and everything, which is obviously amazing. But I'm happy with my role in all the bands that I've been in, which is, in a way, is the great enabler, if I can be. And I've such respect for the craft and the talent of the front men and women that have been involved with, I learned so much from being in the pretenders with Chrissy Hind. It was a short stint between 80 and 91,

but I learned so much about front-in-a-band from Chrissy, but the singers that I've worked with, you know, also a group in the time in the mid-70s, I was getting a lot of my ideas together about what a guitarist was, and you learned so much from there was an archetype, if you like. I mean, I know in the States there's the archetype to say, Joe Perry and Stephen Tyler

or there's, you know, over here there's like maybe Jimmy Page and Robert Plant, in the rock vibe, right? It's the same the world over with guitarists. You know, without getting too cliched, a lot of musicians are a type. It suits.

A lot of the bass players I know are very similar. A lot of the drummers I know have quite similar personalities. They go crazy if they've got nothing to do. Whereas, you know, if you give a guitar player like a you know, a couple of days off with a movie camera, suddenly he's making his arty movie, you know. So I was very typical of that.

And I just worked very well with certain kind of singers. Obviously, Morrissey being one, Matt Johnson, Isaac Brock. I mean, there must be something in it because I've done it with so many of them. And I learned so much about them. But I was so serious, I took the business. of my apprenticeship,

trying to form a rock band or being little bands when I was a kid, 14, 15, 16, 17. I mean, I left school, I left high school early to being a band with adults when I was 15. I took it so seriously that a lot of the lessons I was trying to learn when I was a teenager

proved to be correct. You know, a lot of stuff that I was learning before the Smiths, you know, where I was studying. Things like, serve the song. The singer is the most important thing. Lock in as a rhythm player with the drummer and make the bass player fit in, don't sit on top.

These are all things that serve me. I was right to study that stuff, you know. I want to ask you about that. Can you recall for me what your very first musical memory was? I can, yeah. It was, so my parents were very young when I was born, 17. My mother was 17, I think 18 maybe. And they came over from Ireland in the early,

60s and they're absolute music freaks, record freaks. They were teenage record freaks from Ireland. And they loved rock and roll music. And my mother comes from a family of 14 and nearly all of them moved over to the city for work to Manchester. So I was around a lot of very passionate, highly spirited, hard living, young music freaks. But, to turn the people, my earliest musical memory is watching my mother and my dad's sister play at 45 like 15 times over and over again and luckily for me I had guitar on it it was the ever, Everly Brothers record but watching these two young women stand at a record player and just play it with this joy and I was sat on the floor with this joy and then play it again and then again

And then I kind of grew up with that. And my mother and father was still around now. If I go around to the house, now I have to build in an extra 40 minutes because I know my mother's going to be showing me these songwriters on YouTube that she's really into. So I grew up around that kind of musical obsession, really. What did your record collection look like?

Oh, it was pretty good. You know, so the great thing about the household record collection was that my friends who were, were from more, say, middle class English families. They had kind of books. I realized this when I put out my, you mentioned Mars guitars before. I remembered that. I had got my friend's houses and they would have these, the great big book of Mercedes and English country gardens and architecture. Well, in my house, we had records. So my parents were into, they were into a lot country music. They're into like people like

George Jones, a lot of the Nashville thing. But then there was the pop music like bands like the British bands like the Hollies. And they like Elvis Presley. And that was a real Irish thing. You know, they're from the country. So there was a lot of that kind of, it was all American.

Except for some of the pop music that was coming out of Manchester. So it was all about buying records, which was a real working class thing. And then I got into buying 45s when in the UK, what we call glam rock is a little different from what the Americans are called glam rock. That's kind of hair metal in the LA scene. But in the UK, it was all the early...

T-Rex? Yeah, exactly. T-Rex, Bowie, Sparks, not the hoop, all of that. Why was Manchester such a hotbed? I just got back from here two days ago, and it's a very funny and interesting city, but why was Manchester such a nexus? Well, the industrial revolution happened here in the 1890s, and that made it a very industrial city. So you had lots of industrial buildings and mills and factories. So you can compare Manchester to two places or three places in the United States, Seattle, because of the climate and the size of it. And the fact there's been a couple of music movements out of there.

But it's very like Detroit. It feels like Detroit. It's very blue collar or was. and a lot of people so because of the industrial revolution loads of people of all different ethnicities and nationalities came here for work so there's a massive immigrant scene there's a huge Jewish community

there's a Caribbean community there's an Asian community a lot of people came from India a ton of Irish people which makes it have that kind of Chicago Boston vibe as well so all of these people had their own entertainment So in the 60s, Manchester had more clubs per capita than any other city in Europe.

So there was comedians, there was bands, there was the beat movement. And it was a place that all the bands, you know, in the swinging 60s were, you know, you had everyone, you got cream and Jimmy Hendrix and Brian Auger and whoever. And before that, the jazz scene and the blues scene,

it was the second place everybody came after London. Because there was so many different, And it was so diverse and working class. So, you know, Sunny Terry and Brian McGee came in the early 60s, and that was a game changer. And the famous footage of Sister Rosetta Tharp standing on the train station that happened in Manchester. And then the blue, yeah, and then the blues boom.

And it goes way back before Oasis, even. No. For you, and I guess you can also ask this. or not ask this, Kirk, but answer this. Because in my mind, I was told that, you know, the lead guitarist is sort of a singular string thing and rhythm guitarist is more about the rhythm and chord-wise. But were you, at your essence, consider yourself

in terms of your guitar work? And I also wanted to know, like, in early Smith shows, before you added a second guitarist, Like, how would you figure out the vision of labor inside yourself? Because obviously, like, a lot of your work, you have to overdub chords on top of cords and parts on top of parts. Okay. Yeah, it's a good question.

Well, I, for the longest time, because I was, I grew up primarily in the 70s. So I was 18, I think, when I formed the Smith, that was 82. Right. So, you know, I think of myself as a 70s kid, you know. So I learned to play guitar by playing along with 45s, like the old way. And my little brother who was nine years younger, when he was a toddler. His job was to put his finger on the record to slow it down, which he loved that. So I learned play from records.

And of course, I had pals who were in bands and I was in bands. And then I went through that phase. What we all did, where we're all listening out for guitar solas and we're listening to rock music and all of that. But why I mentioned this is because this is why, for the longest time, sound like I thought of myself as a pop guitar player because the pop music for me meant these real banging, great, grafted, quite quirky, eccentric 45s. Of course, I love all kinds of music, but that was my introduction to it and I still, the way those records were put together and the guitars were on those records by the suite and on roxy music. They're unexpected.

and they're kind of hooky and they're dazzling and they're really exciting. So I always harnessed that. And in a sense, quite often in the studio I still do, especially when I'm listening to playback and I'm wondering what I'm going to do with overdubs. I think that's my job, hooks, and preferably something a little unexpected.

So it's not about playing amazing scales or solos or anything like that. It's making these, like, in my way, 45s. So then when I came to the, start being out, I put my own bands together, say 15, 16, and certainly write my own songs. So this was the late 70s, a new wave was starting to happen. I realised that quite a lot of other guitar, my friends, some of them were great, great guitar players, a few of them. They would listen to whoever it was, Jimmy Page or Bert Janch or, you know, whoever.

In my case, Nile Rogers, but they would listen to this and they'd want to play like that, Whereas I wanted to play like the whole record. I would to play the whole record. So the whole big picture, so I kind of approached the guitar. I didn't go, this is what a guitar does. I kind of went, what does this record need? We'll do it on the guitar. That's why there's all like high-lifey riffs.

High-life, like African feel or high-life? Yeah. Yeah, like some of his charming man's like a rite, really, you know, like that was pointed out to me. But I wasn't doing that because I was trying to, later on, I got really into King's Johnny A day and people like that, but that was only because people told me I sounded like that. But if you listen to all the overdubs that were being done, the overdubs that were being done, that was me sort of trying to go, oh, well, that would be a string part, or that would be a piano part, or that would be, so that was stuff that I learned off these glam rock records that I try to do on the guitar.

So I'm very lucky that accidentally, you know, I can talk about this now, like, 50 years later, because, you know, I've had plenty of time to think about it, and you start to know yourself better. But at the time, that was the way I learned to play, trying to play like a 45, trying to do everything, not just being in my lane. So I would hear these melodies backing up the vocal or intros and stuff like, and I would just go, how do I do that on the guitar? Because we didn't have a keyboard player.

So that was my approach. And then because it worked, I guess now that I'm older, if I do sessions with people, really that's what people want me to do. you know, it's one thing being to describe it, that doesn't mean to say you can automatically do it. But for

quite a number of years in my 30s and 40s, I think maybe I was trying to kick against that a little bit or do something different to that. But then when I got old old, I went, you know what, it's kind of cool to have a thing that people know you for. I'm all right

with that now. And if people, you know, if I get invited to play on someone's track, I think I know kind of what they want me to bring, really, and it's not like they just want me to play, oh, you know, make it sound like what difference does it make, or make it sound like this charming man, but they do want something that you notice, maybe.

You're almost first out the gate on most of the songs that you're on between your groups and your production. So I would imagine that even in concert, like the second you hit a chord, it's almost like an immediate explosion of, you know, I mean, so when you're working with the artists and they're enlisting you, does it ever get awkward in terms of them getting you to be so derivative of a sound that? I think because everyone I've worked with, almost by and none, I've been a fan of.

So they've been someone who, you know, someone who is really cool. Oh, I think he's dead cool. Beck or Billy Elish or Matt Johnson. I mean, I've done a lot of sessions, but generally, you know, I mean, There's been a few different times when things have happened in for different reasons. You know, I've happened to be in a studio with someone or whatever, and I don't really know them. But generally when I've been invited to play with people, I guess the answer, you know what, Questlove. The answer is I think they're kind of too cool to say that.

But now I'm older, I kind of go, I want to deliver what they want. I think the main thing, though, is like when I was talking earlier about some of the lessons that I learned, as a kid, this thing of being appropriate to the song, I know were you guys as musicians, you go, well, obviously, but actually in guitar culture, in 1976, 13-year-old guys didn't give a shit about being appropriate to the song. 13-year-old guitar players did not give two shits about the song. It was like, how quick, when do I get to be loud

and as fast as I can possibly be? So when I came across that from reading a couple of musicians, I was like, huh, okay. So when I do sessions now, I think I'm trying to find the balance now of being there and delivering something that is noticeable. Because sometimes in the past, maybe 20 years ago, I got too shy. Maybe my ego got too small even. Or maybe I was insecure or paranoid. In the last 20 years?

Oh, 20 years ago, maybe. in my 30s or something I did plenty of stuff where I was just playing two down. I was just being too look so when I did Inception I'd worked on one movie before in the late 80s a Dennis Hopper movie called Colors which was amazing with

Herbie Hancock. Can you help score colors? I didn't score it I played on it. Okay yeah with Charlie Drayton yeah wow yeah that was the first movie thing that I did which was amazing because I really loved the movie, blah, blah, blah.

But anyway, I've done that. But Inception was the first real big movie that I was working on. And get back to the point, I think, Anne Zimmer said to me after a couple of days, you've been too reverential to the score. We need it to be more you. Play a bit more out. Be a little bit more egoy, if you like.

And I was being a little bit too careful. So that's what I mean. So these days now, I've tried to think the most recent, yeah, so the most recent, I think record that came out was what I did on Noel Gallagher's last album, which is a great album. I love playing with Noel. Because Noel is forward thinking,

and it kind of answers your question, really, because he wants me to do my thing and be recognizable. But also he knows that I also want to do something. I don't want to just be a throwback to 40 years ago. But on his record, I delivered something which really stands out. I'm not saying it's amazing. I'm just saying it jumps out from the track. It doesn't sound like another one of his band members.

So these days, I'm kind of more comfortable in my own skin, really. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast,

it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, This is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green.

You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also as the co-host of the Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. watched every game and I fell in love.

On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game. I love its history, it's hope, it's heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the Away End with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum-Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents

and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything, but at first it was just like, you got to go get a real job. There's an economic component to community striving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail.

And what I mean by Phil is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And I'm glad you brought that up because I get this a lot whenever I'm playing with someone that I feel really doesn't look under the hood to see what it is that I'm known for. Because I'm known for underplane. Like, I'm known for, I'm not saying hiding in plain sight, but, you know, for what drummers are doing now, which is basically look mono hands all over the place, they'll usually say like, I may have fun with it.

And I know part of them is missing the factor. And I'm trying to tell them, like, I'm not known for, I'm known for the. pocket. So, yeah. I mean, obviously, if Hans hires you, then he knows your work and knows that your chord structures, your tone. Yeah. That is what really makes you you, and that you've not been, you know, eruption level fireworks. When, you know, but how do you handle that? Or do you just rise to the occasion? Yeah, I, do know, I sort of rose to the occasion,

anything and I said you I think you know what I think that says more about hands than it does about me he's just a really really nice guy and he kind of gave me that direction where he realized like look you know this is johnny's first big movie and he's being too polite once he gave me that permission off I went and then there was a couple of other movies where like on this the spider-man movie we were working on the music for that for a couple of weeks and I mean a lot a bunch of us all doing different stuff. And I just came up with a riff that unlocked the whole thing. I didn't know it.

It was a Wednesday and we were all trying to come up with stuff. And I thought lots of music was being made. But that was because of what he told me to do on Inception, which was be you and turn up. Be you and be loud. But still, if we come back to, it's interesting what you were saying about your approach, I'd call that just being tasteful.

And there does come a point where you kind of go, hey look I can do all of this showboaty stuff while I'm on the subject so guitar culture is changing it's always changing and always evolving I love guitar technology and I love new guitar players but TikTok and

I don't know whether it's the same for drums but TikTok and Instagram is really changing a big part of guitar culture and you've got these like amazing children sat in their bedrooms just being crazy, absolutely amazing. And it's kind of mind-blowing.

Without sounding like some old git about it, though I do wonder if the trick is to sit in a room with three other people playing and make it sound like music. And because that is just such a solo activity playing as flash as you like. I like stuff that sounds like a group. There's a place for that and I applaud it. But my, I don't know whether values is too much

a pompous way of saying it, but I have my, I do have my values, and a lot of my values were, as all of us, it kind of baked into you when you're starting out. I got to play some, in my life now where I want to keep evolving and I'm working, you know, thinking about my next record and you've crossed your fingers that you've got to be inspired. And it's always quite a big journey. And as I've said, you know, my family getting involved. It's a big deal. But I don't to repeat myself, but I kind of like the values that I've got. You know, I like the way my band sound. We have a very, and I think that's something that comes with age.

It's not about success. It's about doing it for a long time. You go, you know, I don't know, I want to evolve, but I don't really know whether I want to, I don't need to be TikTok. You know, I just don't. It'd be nice to be on there and all that. I have to be. You're Johnny Moore.

But, yeah, well, thank you. But I think a lot of it is to do with your own personal taste, and maybe you can call that values or it's just what you're into, you know. But luckily for me, with what I do, I said before that, I used to describe myself as a pop musician in the Smith's Days and electronic.

And I've played a lot with Pet Shop Boys and they like that I'm a guitarist who likes pop music. But I have to say in the last sort of 10 years in this genre-fied world, that you can't escape genres. I know, even I can hear that pop definitely sounds like something else now. Pop really does sound like a certain thing.

So after then, if I have to put a label on it, I'm going to go the easy route and say, what I do is I'm a rock musician. But I'm okay with, I used to be okay with being a pop musician because I liked that eccentricity of all those records that I grew up trying to play. Full disclosure.

When your guitar player article came out, I believe it was in 1989, the black and white cover. That was kind of a Bible for me. What was in it that spoke to you, Kurt? A lot of the influences that I didn't know what he was talking about, but then it was also coincided with the time that I started to rummage through my parents' record collection. So when I saw you mentioning things like Fat Back Band,

when I saw you mentioning things like Bahanan, when I, you know, talking about shit. chic i remember thinking at the time i'm 17 years old the time thinking like that don't sound like smiths and um then i'm realizing certain things like you know jump out you know first time i heard king sunny ad day like mentioned was in that article and high life feel i was like what the hell is highlight guitar you know and then i started to hear all of that in the smith's music like in just charming man and everything and just how it's all coming from trying to replicate multiple instruments, but it seems like it's all from the Smith's days, well, your collaborative days

with all the different projects. And then with your solo stuff, it seems like you've just created like a nice bed of influences to draw from. So to say I'm a rock musician, I guess for simplify things, but it's so all over the map. Yeah, thanks, Kirk. Yeah, I think you're right. It does feel a little reductive. I think I may be over it's because of what pop now is. I have to just hold my hands up and go pop now as we know it is a different game if you talk

to a 22 year old person it's not what I'm talking about but that article you talked about it's interesting because you know I mean me and you've played together you got up and play with us in Brooklyn that time. It's so cool and but I know we know each other

like whatever one was that now more than 30 years ago to talk to another guitarist that I know about that article. I got so much shit for that article in the United States. Really? Oh man. Why? Yeah. It was so great though.

You tell it. It was you. Now, it's so nice. So now 30 years later to hear that it landed, because, well, for those very things that I was talking about, like there are a lot of rock guitar players, well, I guess you call them shredders now. But back then there was a whole load of people who, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of, you know, a lot of the guitar playing community

in America at that time possibly in Europe as well I guess were very conservative they didn't like what I was saying Do you mind if I quote you? No at all I'm curious Kurt There was an Inveh Malmstein comment

And oh yeah I think people like Inbe Malmstein should be forgotten as soon as possible That was a quote Oh Look can I just Okay total disclaimer there Well, no, not a disclaimer.

That is the sound of someone just being a little rude. Oh, you know, personally, that's rude. That's rude and attitude. No, but what's incredible is looking back. Well, that makes you rock and roll. Exactly. But I'm 17 then, so I guess you're 27. What's amazing, you're reading an article like this and it's like, this is a grown man talking.

That's in my mind. And then it's like, but it's a 27 year old. And now, being the age that I'm at now, that was. Yeah. That was a kid in that article. And it was an attitude that needed to be heard. At the time, with the type of guitar playing that was around was so ubiquitous, it needed to be said, you know? Yeah, I think I was, well, what it was, I knew it was going to be a big story. And I think I was, as we say, in Manchester, I was on one, right? You know, I was kind of on, I had an attitude. I didn't walk around with loads of attitude, but I had an attitude in that moment because

I was maybe a little bit too bluntly talking about what I was opposed to and I was trying to make a point. Hey, it worked. I think people, people got my point. And I think I think I was called the anti here. row then. You know, it's an interesting thing. Look, hey, the guitarists are not, it was amazing. When the Smiths arrived in the United States, we arrived at an 85 tour. So the tour was sold out. We'd been known and doing pretty well. We were big enough band in the UK and getting kind of

well-known in the States. So we weren't, we haven't busted into the charts or anything, but we were playing, you know, we were playing the Fox Theater in Detroit, I remember, and we were playing the Aragon in Chicago. So we were playing it maybe two and a half thousand, three thousand people. And then on the West Coast, some bigger crowds and stuff. So we arrived with an audience.

It's kind of interesting because our audience, they were kind of like, get us. And there was all these kids who were like, they were giving us this thing, well, you've liberated. I didn't know what a jock was until that tour of 1989. And then when I was meeting fans,

and they were like, yeah, we hate the jocks too. We're really anti-joc. You guys really pissed the jocks off. And I was like, what's a jock? But I'd say there was a movement of bands. It wasn't just a Smith. I think Depeche Mode did that. The Cure did that.

New Order. Echo and the Bunny Man. So we were part of this wave of British boys mostly. And it was cool. You know, I look back on that now and I think, oh, that was so sweet. You know, I liked playing to those kids. because I was a kid myself,

I was 21 or something, so it was all new. I mean, I couldn't, obviously, I'm going to say what all British musicians have been saying since the 50s. I couldn't wait to get out of America.

Wow. And then that we had these people who wanted to look like us, and then kids were trying to play guitar like me and stuff. That blew my mind. But I was very nervous being a guitar player because I had a huge part of me.

I used to get so nervous before shows because I did, because of the guitar culture, I thought, these people, America's not going to get me. This is coming back to, I'm remembering the mindset when I did that article, because they asked me to do that article you're talking about, be on the cover of the first, it was the last one of the decade or the first one. And I was like, I don't know whether guitar playing America understands me.

What was the makeup of the audience? Do you remember? Yeah. It was, well, in America, it was kind of more mixed than you would have, imagine. Okay, I'm so glad you said that. And still is for the Smiths. All right, so I found out, you know, people that listen to the show, of course, know my worship of the production work of J. Dilla. And when I first started working with J. Dilla, like around 97, I was really amazed at how, like, a big part of my expansive musical vocabulary, you know,

I mean, it was prevalent in the household because, you know, I grew up with a sister that listened to rock and in alt music and all that stuff. And, you know, my dad liked yop rock. And so I got everything out of my two parents and my sister. I realized that in Detroit, there's a black radio station that had a show by a DJ called The Electrifying Mojo. And the Electrifying Mojo was open format to the bone. Like, if it had a texture that touched him, he would play it.

You know, and again, Funkadelics from Detroit. So they would sometimes do straight up rock shit. And, you know, it wasn't like now where it's just like it has to be funk or rap or, you know, he could play whatever. And they were trying to explain to me. One day they were singing, I forget which album of yours. Dilla was trying to sample. maybe meet his murder maybe that was a big album in America

I don't know if it was charming man or whatever whatever it was he had it and I was like yo what you know about this shit and he hit me to the fact and later I got tapes where I would listen to you know someone would record four hours

at the Mojo show and for the life of me I couldn't get how some of the most gangster ass motherfucker is from like Detroit, when suddenly, if you were put on you guys or Depeche Mode or New Order, yeah, like they would just go create and start singing it like off the top. And I was wondering like how did Mojo DJing in the Midwest, if you will, sort of affect that.

So I always wanted to know what the concerts look like because it was really cool. So it's 85 and frankly, I was surprised. It was great, but then there was so much of about America that I was learning about. It was so good. And, I mean, you know, us being musicians from England, we were just like, we're going to go to Motown, we're going to go to Motown, you know?

And then the Fox was, it was a, oh, yeah, and, you know, all those places were, but he's a mixed crowd. And that stayed right the way to this day. To this day of being sampled. It's amazing. And yeah, and the audience, I mean, my own audience as well, it's pretty cool. But, you know, this, we come from a city that it's a whole different, I guess, well, maybe it's related.

But in 81, 82, Manchester had this really strong relationship with New York and the electro scene. And really, we have to thank factory records and therefore new order, but that's, whole thing, certain ratio. And these were all my pals, and I hadn't had a record deal yet, and I was forming the Smiths, but everybody, everybody knew

everybody else. And, you know, the first ever Smith show in America was at Dancateria. Whoa! What was this? Like, well, we were jet lagged and, like, you know, I had no manager,

and, you know, it was New Year's Eve from 83 going in, 804. And it was, we couldn't believe it. We were in Dantiteria. So because we were from Manchester, so on the face of it, people from the outside world,

they're like, well, the Smiths are this chirpy, quirky, very, very, very English. But because of the Manchester experience, we, you know,

Dantiteria, we were buzzing that we're at Dantiteria. And the myth goes, people say this is true, but I should know this, but that Madonna, because she worked there, that she opened for us here,

like a 20-minute set. I know it's been in a couple of books and it may actually be right. But that was crazy that happened, yeah. Damn. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brain. brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars, and now I guess also as the co-host of the Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist, and John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old.

I watched every game and I fell in love. On our new podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan. I love this game.

I love its history, it's hope, it's heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auer Kohn and John Green on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum-Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up.

If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything, but at first it was just like, you got to go get a real job. There's an economic component to community striving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities,

they fail. And what I mean by fell is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. Communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So the very first time I heard of you guys was courtesy of factory records, but not in the way that you think. So I don't know factory records because around like 89, 90, kind of when the second one was,

wave of hip-hop is starting. Some independent record labels got wise to the fact that, you know, of the old records that were sampling and whatnot to come up with compilations. And so, of course, they were just, instead of you having to rummage through shit at the Salvation Army, you know, and find doubles, you could just buy a compilation and have it all on there. But then factory records would take it even further and not even just put the song on there.

They would just put the break on there. So they would just loop like 16 bars of a particular break, do that for five minutes. And that's how like at least three or four of your songs were on those like, I think his name was Simon Harris, but it was on factory records. And I always wanted to know, like, were you guys that all ever connected with or even aware? Well, I did hear about that at the time.

And we just thought, I still to this stage, you thought, well, that's really cool. all. Again, that's another example of music does that, doesn't it? Because in some ways culturally you go, well, our countries are so different

but Manchester is so like Chicago in that, in that instant. You know, like S-900 was it? Was it S-900 a thing? And the MPCs and stuff, I mean, everybody... Oh, the first 900, yeah. Yeah, you know, everybody was

everybody was making music with those things. I mean, it was the centre of Manchester in 87, well, 87, but definitely 88 was the centre of house music in Europe. It wasn't Berlin and it wasn't London. Everyone knows it was Manchester. So it is brilliant that you have those kind of, you have those connections. That music can do that. You know, it's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah, you mean like your dad like in yacht rock? You know, I mean, everything's fair game, but I think a lot of that to do, just plainly is to do with our age and where we are. If you're a musician at a certain age now, your tastes should be eclectic. Because we grew up with like 50 years of all kinds of people doing really interesting things. And if you're just someone who likes music, you're like a hook in this song, you're like a groove in that song, you're like the way that person sings. It's all fair game and the way the technology served us all. I think it's a really beautiful thing.

Hans Zimmer's got its great story about me and Farrell writing on Spider-Man. He always says, I mean, he was watching the guy who wrote Happy writing a song with the guy who wrote, Heaven knows I'm miserable now. Right. And that's a good story.

Perfect fit. Right. Nice. It's a good story. But it's, that kind of proves my point, really. Like, everything's a mix-up now in pop, which is kind of amazing. You take someone like Billy Elish. I worked with Billy a few years ago on that Bond film.

And her and Finney's some great examples of modern musicians, you know. So I feel how great. I look here. I've got the best guitar gig of all time playing with all these different kind of people from different genres of music. It's just great. Okay, so you're in a room right now with Lord knows how many axes are behind you. Yeah.

But. A few. But you can only play one at a time. Maybe you can play two. First of all, and I'll ask, and I always scream on Kirk about this as well. I feel as though any legendary guitarist that Elise has clocked in double digits in years into a notable career, I feel as though you should keep, and this is where Kirk disagrees with me, I feel as though you should keep your first 10 years of guitar for history.

but yet you know Kirk I don't know if you know the story but how old were you when Vernon Reed gave you his guitar that was for my 24th birthday wait a minute dog I thought it was like Mingo Green Coke commercial like you were like eight and he's like here kid I mean I was a young 24 you're kind of 24 now I was green at 30 bro

it's still Vernon Reed's guitar right and then you gave that guitar to someone else I think Johnny understands this. In one sense, it's spreading good energy. And in the other sense, it's like when, you know, there's such a thing as having enough to share and recognizing when you have enough to share. And I think Vernon felt that way.

I got to a point where, like, I have enough to share. I want to pass on good mojo to keep using the term. And I think Johnny can take the rest. Well, Crystal, guitar players are just nicer than drummers, man. But also, it's easier to give away a guitar that it is a set of drums. You might have to believe I heard that, I don't know if this is the guitar that is on Wonderwall, whatever, that's your guitar that? Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah. I mean, Wonderwall is a, that's a third one.

But by then, I thought, I think I sold in that. By then, I was sick of giving him guitars. I think that's the way he puts it. How did you start your friendship with Noah? My brother's, as I said earlier, he's nine years younger than me. He's a really low-key, he's a quiet, cool guy, really cool. And one day he said to me, he would have been about 19. There was when I was in electronic.

He said, there's a mate of mine. He's got a band together. And he's a pretty cool guy. Now, my brother at 17, 18, he was always getting guys usually say to him, will you give this dat to your Johnny? Give this, because my brother was out in town a lot. Give this. So use your A&R.

CD ref, and he would just be, I never even got to hear about it. So because he's so low key, the fact that he said this guy's pretty cool, I should have listened harder, really. But what happened was when I'd made a record with the there called Dusk, which I still is one of my favorite things I've ever done. And Noel, who my brother had seen around town, Noel was coming out of a record store with dusk and my brother Ian said, hey, what you got there?

And Noel said, oh, it's this new to their album. And my brother, who Noel had known for a while, said, oh, yeah, my brother's on that record. And Noel was like, what? What do you mean your brother's on this record? What you mean? He said, oh, he's playing guitar on it. So then Noel was like, hang on a minute,

what's your last name? And Ian said, oh, Ma'am, Ian Maher. So anyway, that's how that came about. And there's kind of a long story I won't go, we're going to be here all night. But my brother gave me the tape of an early Oasis demo. And then the next thing, I saw Noel in the rain in Manchester one day,

and I gave him a ride in the car, and we went and talked. And I just really liked him. And the thing is, I went to see his band. I cut the story really short. I went to see his band a few days later. And I swear there was 11 people. there, Max, and the show was just for my benefit.

They were on it, like seven. Is it in Kennesstown? This is, no, this is in Manchester. This way before that. Okay. Anyway, he, so I went and watched and he did like five, five songs. But then when he called me the next day, asked me what I thought. I'd made a point of saying, well, look, in between numbers,

you take a long time tuning up. His guitar was so shitty, he kept going out of chin. I only said that because he asked me, do you have any advice? And I said, well, you know, you really could, could do with a backup guitar. And quite rightly, he said to me, well, that's okay for you to say, Mr. Indy Rock star. I'm on the doll. I'm on the benefits.

So I was like, oh shit, okay, yeah, good point. And I thought he needed a guitar and I can't give him a crappy one. So I gave him a guitar that I did a lot of Smith stuff on. That was, I did Panic on and a whole bunch of stuff. And it blew his mind. Why? I was absolutely fine. You gave him a less paul?

You gave him a less paul? Yeah, I gave him that I got from the who. Oh, God. Flex. Small flex. That's a good one. I don't regret it for a second. But the thing is, though, at the time, no one knew he was going to go on to be who he is.

You know, he was just a kid. He also came from, we've got a lot in common. He comes from our Irish family. It was just an easy, it was really easy thing for me to do, and I wanted to help him out. I wanted to help him out. And then off they went, and their rise was really quick. And so they then got in my office. I introduced him to my manager, and all of that was great.

He and my manager just really hit it off, and they've been really tight. They've been together for 30-odd years throughout the whole journey. And me and Noel are closer than ever, really, 30 years later. And, you know, he's done plenty of good stuff for other people, too. that is less well known, I guess. So it all kind of comes, you know, what goes around, comes around, you know. Johnny, I got a question. Have you ever been asked to play on an African record,

or is that something you'd be interesting, given the Sunny Out Day references and all that stuff and the way you play? Is that ever been a thing? I played live with Amadou and Mariam, and that was really interesting. That was someone who I did jam with. They invited me to come and play with him. I thought, oh, man, this is going to be amazing. So the answer is no, not in the way, not in the way you mention it. No, I haven't. Because after this chairman man came out, a lot of people were writing that

the guitars were very high life. And as Kirk mentioned, I didn't know what high life was. Now, in the UK, in the sort of underground station, everyone knows, you guys don't know about John Peel. He was such a seminal guy. That's the guy that breaks you. Yeah, he used to play loads of underground music

on an outlying music, but on BBC. So he was a brave guy, and he broke a lot of bands. And I think you two started out on his show and the Smiths. And there's a lot of bands that have got, you know, John Peel to thank. Now, he used to play, that was where I first started hearing High Life after that. So it started to become, it was a thing, but I didn't know about it in the UK, in the underground. But I just played the way I played, as I said, I was the, just looking for melodies and I had a kind of unusual way of playing, I think,

playing that real clean sound. And I mean, if you want to know about that as well, that was funny how these things come about, but I was almost forced into a clean sound, which really suited me. It was great because of the way fashion music, fashions go. So because of punk rock and the sex pistols playing this very over-driven, let's say like a Ramones kind of sound in the US.

I was short, sharp, very distorted like that. Because that had happened, after punk, everyone was looking for their own thing. You guys might find this interesting in Manchester. Because we're young, you know, quite often young people define themselves by what they're not. So if you're kind of hip in Manchester or probably anywhere in the UK and maybe the States, not so much the States, but 78, 79. 8081 for guitar players there was a whole lot of thou shalt not so it was thou shalt not play pentatonic blues licks thou shalt not sound like free bird thou shalt not

sound like and it gave us so there was a lot of as a guitar player you know you want to be modern and you want to be contemporary and cutting edge so in my case for me my i took this stuff very seriously, like distortion was out, a lot of effects were out, except for Charlie Birchall from Simple Minds E did it well, a guy from killing joke did it well, but there was a whole bunch of guitar players and in my case, what all I was left with was clean, no effects, and I was the one guy playing melody in the band, and the factory records guys all went towards funk, so a certain ratio, you hear it in New Orders Records. So obviously, now Rogers was real big, Niles thing, because if you've got no distortion and no sustain, when you play a guitar

chord, it disappears real quick unless you're going, jing, tigiging, tiging, dink, unless you're playing a lot of funk. Now, I mean, this was very deliberate on my part. There was a few bands who were doing that very well, who were on the John Peele show, and I was able to do something else. I was able to play very melodic, and I was able to play arpeggios, and I wanted my own thing. So bands like you hear it in orange juice and some of the what postcard records where they've got this

anemic very lo-fi approach with James Brown beats because it had to be non-rock. That's the thing, non-rock, non-rock. So funk was kind of a thing. But still it had to be lo-fi. I think in the US

the closest to it would have been ESG, you know? Nice. So it's this minimalist low-fi, almost amateurish, cool thing. And so the guitar version of that, and no one was doing what I was doing. So my point being that,

I was left with a few sort of very, only a few things left that I could do. And I think that's a really good thing for art. I think if you've got just a few options, particularly in this day and age when you can sit in front of a laptop and you can just pull down loops, orchestras, requires anything you want, any kind of plug-ins.

But then me as a guitar player, I was left with just a very, very narrow set of options. So it made me play in a very hyperactive way. And that's where this high-lifey kind of King's Sunni-A-day thing comes from because I didn't have a whole load of echo hanging around or a load of distortion. And I was very melodic. So I was kind of just really getting busy. Was it ever a temptation to,

go there. I understand what you're saying because you know, we started off busking. So I always played like a two-piece set, a three-piece set. And then, of course, the second we got our record deal, I fucked around and got a Neil Pert set, which

my manager was like, nah, dude, like, no. Like, go back to your kick, your snare, your hi-hat, and that's it. Like, that's right. Yeah. And I learned my lessons. But were you ever tempted to, like, like go out and buy a pedal effect boards.

Oh, yeah. Oh, no, I do that, but I try and do it to make it sound like my records. Like, I'm really into the technology. In the 80s, no one was more diametrically opposed to my approach than Eddie Van Halen. There's no doubt about it. If you go, what's the most extreme opposite to what I was doing, I guess, is Eddie Van Halen. and I saw Eddie Van Halen and I watched this guy

smile for two hours while he was playing and looked like it was the greatest thing in the world and I was like he's all right and then I met him what a beautiful guy this absolutely beautiful guy but no one needs me to be in that area and it was just kind of a funny thing

and you know I'd forgotten that I almost wish that I'd remember that when I wrote my book. But I think knowing what you're about, but still hoping to surprise yourself is where I'm at. But I love technology. My pedal's crazy. But I've got it down now.

And I think it's a whole other thing. But I think the technology is finally now, maybe it was a number of years ago, but finally actually caught up with the musicians. If I'm not careful, I can spend too much of my time pressing buttons. I love programming pedals. I love it.

Because it's, I see it as programming, I see it as producing with my feet. Yeah, I, I'm so happy you included your pedal board in Mars guitars. But I did notice, maybe I missed it, but I was looking for what you were using, and maybe you just omitted it because it's just simply unsexy. No, it's just the rack units that you were using in the late 80s, like you had a you were using a rack mounted boogie you had like a messabuggy power amp amp messabuggy preamps and rack effects and um yeah but but you didn't include that in the book and is it was it just do you not have them anymore or just it's just they're they don't look as

beautiful as a fender that's right it was just an ascetic decision i thought that if i'd done that it would have tipped the book slightly too much into the realm of this book is is for musicians because the balance with that book was that I wanted it to be yes, for musicians, but I thought it would be a neat trick to pull off if people who weren't musicians had it next to Zen Gardens in their house. I want for that book, if I'm being honest to be a little bit like the Trojan horse, that's the book. That's my way of getting guitars into people's houses who would not normally have a guitar book.

Yes, and rack mount units are only sexy to. to guitar players of a certain vintage and to living no one else. At all. Correct. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for Raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clivert Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I'm John Green. You may know me as the author of The Fault and Our Stars. And now, I guess also is the co-host of The Away End, a brand new world soccer podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon, a writer and journalist.

And John and I have known each other since we were kids. My first World Cup was Mexico 86. I was nine years old. I watched every game. and I fell in love. On our new podcast, the Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football,

all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. For us, soccer, football, is a story we've shared for over 30 years since Daniel was the star player on our high school soccer team. Very debatable. And I was their most loyal and sometimes only fan.

I love this game. I love its history, its hope, its heartbreak, and above all, it's beauty. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the Away End with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist, Lakeisha Landrum Pierre as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents and they're seeing all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%.

They believe everything. But at first it was just like, you got to go get a real job. There's an economic component to communities thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. And what I mean by fell is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. communities don't work unless there's money flowing through them.

Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. While I'm in here, I just, I wanted to ask, we got the pleasure of playing with Nile Rogers at the Roots picnic in New York a few years back. And he mentioned your son Nile that plays. Yeah. He mentioned, you know, how great he was at guitar. You know, hearing your story about you with your parents and just the effect of seeing your aunt playing the record over and over and just music made in spaces. I'm getting the feeling that there wasn't much of a feeling of what's that noise that Johnny is listening to. Like your parents were listening to the noise of the day, it seems as well.

and wondering what the dynamic was with Nile growing up, was he ever into music that you were saying, oh, that's shite? Or was it a similar dynamic that you had with your parents? That's an interesting question, yeah. The thing is, well, Nile's made a few albums now. He's made an album with his band Man Made, which, I mean, you know, I get it. I think he's really good.

he's made a few solo records and now he's got a new band called Cher and but because he put these records out he'd done interviews and he knows he's going to be asked about me some less polite or a call or considerate rather

interviewers are going to ask him about me right out of the gate and he's a smart guy but he's you know he's okay he can handle it there was one time I was doing something and a podcast came on and he was on it

and I was hearing him being interviewed and I was like oh I don't know whether I want to hear him talking about his childhood what am I going to hear and he's a funny guy

so it was weird it was odd it felt a little like eavesdropping it was like I don't go out my way to avoid it but I was a little like oh and I want to listen

to my son being interviewed and wanting to do his thing but in the interview they asked him about growing up in the house now the thing he said well straight away the people that because our house was a was a recording studio it wasn't like we had a studio in the house the house was a studio that we lived in really so there was

amps in the rooms and they were mic'd up for certain rooms sounded good and because i had a big studio in the outbuilding outside so there's a lot of musicians around so he grew up with his sister in that environment and his answer was that um the thing that growing up in his house with me as his father, the first thing he saw was that my famous friends, whether in Radiohead or New Order or whatever, that he saw a serious work ethic, not just from me and his mother, but everyone, he saw that successful people really work hard,

which was nice. But then he then said it was unusual being in a house where when he was playing a record, he had to explain exactly why he was listening to it. What the whole. And I said to his sister, I went, he's got, he's exaggerate. Is that right? Is that a thing? She was like, oh, yeah.

She was like, I was like, really? I used to go in there and he'd be like listening to Pink or Avila Levine. I'd go, what's this? She listed. Tell me why. I know you're six. I know you're six, but tell me exactly why. That's good.

He's turned me on to a lot of music and vice versa. And yeah, so it was. a similar dynamic to my household. It was this thing about, I guess, it's just like all of us, really. It's learned behavior, I think, of, okay, you've got to be musical anyway, because his sister isn't it in a band? She can sing, like, great, but she's chosen not to be in bands, and he is a talented musician, but it's that thing of loving music, and I guess he saw how it can be your living, how you can take it seriously. you can take it almost too seriously, I guess.

I say this quite a lot with the Irish thing as well. But in my house, seriously, when I was growing up, music really was like a religion in my house. And it's kind of like that in there. It's probably been like that for my kids. But they turned out okay, so it's all right. But, no, it's an interesting thing. Well, he's named after Nile Rogers,

and he's happy about that. Yeah. And I know Nile's happy about it, yeah. I'm, of course, a big Smiths fan and a lot of the things you worked on, but particularly the Billy Bragg stuff. I'm a big fan of that record in particular. Is it just one record that you worked on with him, the Taxman record, or was it more than that?

No, no, I did one called Don't Try This at Home as well. Oh, right. In fact, this got a psychedelic track on that. Check out Cindy of a thousand lives. You will not believe it's Billy Bragg. It's this real psychedelic, shoegazey. yeah, it's a good one. Yeah, and sexuality.

You co-wrote the single on that one as well, right? Yeah, I did, yeah. I produced that and wrote it with him, yeah. I guess my question is, because I do like to turn the Questlop Supreme audience onto artists they may not be over familiar with, Billy Bragg being one of them. So what was that experience like?

Was there some story where you guys were touring together prior to working together? Yeah. Well, the thing with us and Billy, and me and Billy still was that, So Billy was a real contemporary, as in, I say that because so many years later now, not everybody's still around for whatever reason, some dropped out, some just out with us anymore, et cetera.

And Billy's still out doing his thing, which is so good, and he's doing it well. So I'm really pleased for him. He came out and opened for the Smiths on our US tour, that tour I was talking about earlier in 85. and he was such a great opener because it was just him and his guitar and he was so fearless he would back then it was all about you know politically it was all about Reaganomics and over here we had our version of it and he he would engage the audience with

with stuff that was kind of was political but also funny and thought-provoking so quite often when you go on stage, you know, often some people, you know, the opening act, it's a hard gig

for some opening acts because the audience aren't really listening, but he really engaged the audience as an opening act, but he had, but no one had heard bass and drums. When we went on,

we sounded really huge, but what was great was he got the audience kind of antsy in a way. He was funny and he was thought-provoking, and they'd never seen anyone like him. So Billy's whole thing,

back then he used to say when he sings a song he wants to sound like all of the clash which was kind of what he did he used to really go for it so when you would come on we definitely felt like he'd built a vibe

so we got to be pals and I played on talking with the tax man about poetry album did a couple of songs with him on that and then we just stayed to be friends and we wrote sexuality together and then I became like he's kind of producer during that period. And he came to my studio and did a few songs there for that album called Don't Try

This at Home. He's someone who I feel as stayed as a kindred spirit, really, politically, ideologically, I think. And it's nice when the good guys stays the good guys, you know. It's a really good, very heartening to see. Yeah, he's a great artist. Also, this is somebody that I don't believe you've ever worked with them, and I could be wrong, but I, I'm going down this Niccolo rabbit hole because I'm about to interview Nick Lowe for this podcast for the same, for QLS. And I heard in some interview that you're a fan of his. And I was just wondering where you caught onto that scene. Well, all musicians certainly of a certain age, all regard Nick Lowe is a great man and a great musician.

And when I said earlier, when I was talking to Questlove about, I left school at 15 to be in a band with adults. That was to go to Nick Lowe's house and make demos for Elvis Costello's manager. That was the first recording studio I was ever in. And I was, I think, or maybe he was even 14. So this is Jake Riviera? Yeah, Jake Riviera called me one day when I came home from school. I was still in my school uniform.

And I thought it was, I thought it was one of my pals playing a prank. And one of my other pals had sent in a tape of my band to Jake Riviera and he liked it. For stiff records? Yeah. Okay. Nothing came of it, but it was a big experience for me because I've never been in a recording studio. And I was in Nick Lowe's house. And Nick Lowe, while we were there, Nick Lowe came back from an American

and tall while. And I didn't meet him, but I saw him. I saw his cowboy boots wobbling up the stairs up to his bedroom. Honestly, very, very unsteadily. And then heard a crash. And then no one saw him for a few days. But I then worked with him because of this story. When I was in The Pretenders, Chrissy, who was a very generous person,

Chrissy Hind, her first single was produced by Nick Lowe. the first Pretender single. And because I was a fan of Nick Lowe when we went in the studio to do the only recording that I did with The Pretenders, we got Nick Lowe to produce it. So I eventually got to work with Nick Lowe on a couple of songs. Great man. Oh, cool. So that's Stop Your Sobbing?

You're on that? Yeah. That's the one Nick Lowe produced. That came out when I was a kid. But we did one for this movie night in 69 where we did the Stooges song. We did Windows of the World, the Baccairac song, and we did 1969 bad stooges, and we did it in one take. And Nick was like, hey, listen, I know my reputation is that I just say one take, but really, the first take was the take. And we did it about four times, and it was right, one take.

But, yeah, it was cool. Awesome. Thanks for sharing it. This for me is like a dream. I could just sit here all day. There's many more questions I have, but I feel really. really lucky that I could save this for when we meet again, Johnny. Absolutely, yeah.

Always a pleasure to be continued. Absolutely. What is that amp next to those books up there? It looks like a little like a Plexi. Yeah, it's one of those little Friedman plexies. Well, it's just called a Plexie. It's a mini Plexie. You have a Friedman.

Yeah, I've got a couple of freedmen's, yeah. I didn't know. Okay. Yeah. I don't know whether that. That's made, I think that's made by Friedma, but it's called a Plexi. What I did that, you know, that thing where a few years ago, one of my friends said to me, listen, man, you've got to get this.

You're not going to believe it. It's like actually a 15, 15 watt. Yeah. It's so, so good, man. Yeah. Like you say, the technology, the way that you can dial things up so easily, whether it's getting things that sound great in a small, no, less wattage. so you get more tone at lower volumes.

It's really to our advantage these days in a way that it wasn't prior. Do you know about this? I know we can go on forever this, but do you know about these synergies? These little, this company synergy, they make, they just, so this is like this thing. Is it the Kemper?

No, above the Kemper, above the Kemper, you have this one new thing, and then these modules pull out, and there's a Bogner now. A freedman, a Plexi, a Fender. And they're doing it all in conjunction with the, they're doing it with the companies. So it's not like they're ripping the companies off or anything.

Right, right. Oh, man. And they sound so good for at home, yeah. Wow. Hey, Johnny, I just want to say that, you know, this has been six years in the making. And first of all, when we played it with you, we couldn't believe it.

But you were just, it was a dream to play with you. And finally, like, we get to have this conversation six years down the line. Kirk, thank you for making sure that we kept this appointment and that we saw this through. And we just want to thank you for being on this platform and talking to us, just talking shot. It's fantastic. Thank you for inviting me. It's so good to see you guys again. It's been too long.

And I hope it's not as long again. And, you know, every time I see you. So it's always a joy. It's great. Like I recognize a, you know, musicians, you know. Thank you. Well, on behalf of Captain Kurt Douglas, our special guest, and Steve. And I'm Pete Bill.

I'm the entire QLS family. This is Questlove, and we'll see you on the next program. Thank you for listening to Questlove Supreme. hosted by Amir Questlove Thompson, Laius Sinclair, Fonte Coleman, Sugar Steve Mandel, and unpaid Bill Sherman. Executive producers are

Amir Kwestlove Thompson, Sean Cheek, and Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin, cousin Jake Payne, Elias St. Clair. edited by Alex Convoy.

Produced by IHeart by Noel Brown. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes,

creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok's podcast network on TikTok. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. It's much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far.

But I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out, leveling up. There's an economic component to community striving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black

Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.