The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Jonathan Shecter Part 1

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

Jonathan Shecter, aka Shecky Green, is the founding Editor-in-Chief of The Source magazine and its co-creator. In part 1 of this special interview, Jonathan recalls his 1980s Philadelphia childhood, Rap dreams, and working at radio staple Power 99. Shecky details The Source's early years and how the magazine began as support for a Harvard University radio show and expanded to "The Bible of Hip-Hop." This episode is packed with history, passion, and insight into the music that is now considered classic material.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clivert Show on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode.

Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Vodom. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel funny,

anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Yeah. Listen to Thanks Dad on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Daniel Alarcon. And this is my friend. This is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far. But I'm John Green. Co-hosted the podcast The Away End with my old friend Daniel on our podcast the away end. We'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup.

Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to the away end with Daniel Auerkone and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. What up, I'm being built? Man, it's a good day.

It's a Philly day. I'm excited. Whenever you're quiet, I feel like you're working on something monsters. What are you working on? I feel like you think that because I have all this gear behind me that I do a lot of cool shit, but I don't. And none of it works. This is just for, it looks good. Oh, is this for show?

Yeah. No, there's no potential movie or Broadway project coming up? Not at the moment. I'm too busy watching Boy Band Scam documentaries about Lou. What's his name? that guy anyway that's what i've been doing today there's a new documentary yeah it's on netflix it's called dirty pop it's pretty great i recommend it i'm in it say no more steve what up bro good morning how's it going i don't it's a m so i don't know what's cool

Steve doesn't do morning you know that that sounds about right all right that sounds about right what can i say as a podcast host as a writer of several books uh I don't know I don't know obsessive, author of many a 1920 paragraph Instagram post. That's understating it. Even as the world record holder for podcast show intros, lengthy intros, it's an understatement to say that I have an obsession with journalism. And of course, the answer to that is duh. Of course, you know, I'm probably one of the few casts seized the

the journalist or the person that brings the story as just as important as the artist making the story. In my childhood, there were equally influential music periodicals that took up space just like the records did. So I just didn't grow up with records, but I grew up in a house with a gazillion serious music periodicals. And then I think in my senior year of high school, something clicked in kind of in the summer. of 88, I ran across a magazine with L.L. Cool J on the front cover and not knowing what it was, sort of like a last-minute purchase, I purchased a bunch of records and there's magazines at the at the register on my way home, reading that periodical. I got to admit that the writing style was a little bit different than when I was used to because there was no internet in 88.

So pretty much I had to rely on the words of anyone working at those magazines like Ride On or Blackbeat or Word Up. You know, there would be an occasional blurb in mainstream media, but it was always just one degree of, you know, either run DMC's cover story for Rolling Stone. Like, see, not all rap is violent, you know, that sort of thing. But for me, I always saw that the hip-hop coverage in the late 80s. in very early 90s, almost the equivalent of letting a vegan judge a Texas barbecue contest.

And the aforementioned periodical comes along and starts treating the music that I love, and that we all love is high art. And I went from casual reader to obsessive in about 20 minutes. And so the friendships I've cultivated in the name of that magazine, the business partners I've chosen because of that magazine, my art direction in life, the art I've created, even those actual participants of that magazine become lifelong friends of mine. For me, the story of the source magazine, which I still refer to as hip-hop's Bible, our guest today was very, very instrumental in bringing that periodical, that religious,

that religion, that culture, that way of life, and all those writers and all those artists and all those photographers in our world. And, you know, it's rare to read any in-depth interviews. I've yet to hear his side of the story of his stint there between 87, 88, there until 1994. Not to mention his other ventures as well. and he's given us the honor to pick his brain for this episode. John Sheck, finally, you come to Kost Love Supreme. It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure.

Thank you. Thank you, Amir. I really appreciate that. Sorry, I hope I didn't embarrass you. Not at all. I'm big fan of the podcast. I was getting my rap ready. I guess we're not going to do that today.

No, no. Low key got a rap ready, but I can hold it until the future. It's all good. Got you, gotcha. Okay, I see your NS10s behind you. Where are you broadcasting from? I am in my office in Las Vegas where we work with a lot of DJs because one of my partners is a guy named Eddie Mack who has a DJ agency here. So we have this is kind of our office headquarters here in Las Vegas. It's very close to the Las Vegas strip. And yeah, there's a lot of DJs here, a lot of hip hop here, a lot of vinyl here, all that good stuff. It is.

Yeah. You're the first person to tell me. I think maybe in, I went to, what was the convention that used to come out there, the fashion convention? Like, magic. Yeah, I went to the magic convention once. And you told me like, yeah, I'm living in Vegas. And I'm like, Vegas.

Who lives in Vegas? You know, like where we only see Vegas as a five cent slot machine and nothing else? Yeah. Most people come and go in like three days is the max. That's like kind of the typical experience, like 72 hours. are like, get me the hell out of here. I ended up staying for like 25 years. But you were the one that told me that not only Vegas is the future,

but you predicted even then. I think this was maybe 98, 99, definitely wasn't 2000 yet. You told me like, yo, like, I predict that Vegas is going to be the epicenter taken away from Los Angeles. Like, I guarantee you. And at first up, I don't know about all that. But you actually turned out to be right, man. Like, practically my entire community of friends that I'm used to running into in Los Angeles have moved to Vegas and made Vegas their home.

Like, what was it about? Because you were like one of the earliest people saw the potential in it. Like, I'll say for a lot of us, Vegas just got cool. You know, even in music terms, when I tell the band, like, Las Vegas, it's always like a cheesy term. like, you know, like New York City. Jazz version of shaving a haircut. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, that's what. But, like, what was it about Vegas that told you, especially 20 years before the fact that, you know, this will be the new spot? You know, I found a lot of things about Vegas appealing. What we do best out here is music, food, the weather, for those who can take the heat. And it's actually a pretty good, easy lifestyle if you can, you know, find your niche out here.

But when it comes to music, I mean, obviously that was sort of my, you know, one of my main reasons for being here. I saw a lot of opportunity. I saw, I got here right as the sort of nightlife wave was beginning with a lot of DJs. And I kind of jump right in and started like bringing a bunch of my friends out here like DJ AM, Mark Ronson, Stretch Armstrong, DJ Premier, people like that. But yeah, Vegas has come a long way in the time I've been here. And now I think it really is one of the best music cities in the world for sure. I mean, there's so much here. Whatever you're into, whatever genre you're into,

if you want to see live acts, if you want to see DJs, if you want to just have a nice meal and listen to some good music, we got it all covered. The idea of what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Is that truly a myth? Or is the idea of that whole what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas thing? Is that real or not? Everyone finds their own Vegas.

That's a phrase I like to say. Meaning pretty much early on when you first visit, you have that all-out wild experience where you, you know, someone, they go to extreme in one direction or another. And then over time, whether you're a visitor or whether you're a resident here, you begin to assimilate into a newer kind of environment. And in the sense that nothing really shocks you anymore, nothing really surprises you, and you can kind of just take it all in stride. And I think I hit that a while back, you know, like, and for people who are frequent visitors, the same thing happens.

You stop having those extreme moments and you kind of just settle into like a good experience and you kind of find your niche. You know, you find the places you like to go or you're here for particular music events and or something like that. So, yeah, I mean, there's some truth to that. But I think that usually refers to people who are more beginners in Las Vegas. And then once you become more experience, you take it all in stride, basically. For your taste, like, what's your restaurant of choice? Well, I'm pescatarian, leaning vegan, vegetarian. So, you know, I look for those kind of spots.

There's so much, you know what I will say is that if I'm going to give one restaurant recommendation, I'm just going to recommend a whole block, which is scream out. Mountain Road, which is very close to the strip. It's Vegas's Asia Town. And there's literally hundreds of amazing restaurants there. And most tourists never see it because it's not in a casino. You know, the typical experience is most people will come to Vegas and they'll check into one of the casinos. They only strip. And they'll literally never leave that one building because every casino has like 15 restaurants and three nightclubs and the pool and the gym and everything else. So, but what I recommend to people is you go like literally five minutes away from the win is a street called

Spring Mountain Road. And on that street is literally hundreds of amazing restaurants. And among those hundreds, there's about a couple dozen that are world-class Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Korean, et cetera. So that's my recommendation. So you're saying that, you know, for us to stay on the strip is the equivalent of people visiting New York and just staying in Times Square and really not. Yeah, it's like, it's like kind of like staying in Times Square. But to some extent, I mean, listen, I'm not going to say that I work with a lot of casinos. I work with a lot of restaurants. I work with a lot of restaurants.

So, you know, I'm not going to say that there's nothing to be found there because there's a ton of amazing places. But, you know, over time, most locals tend to avoid the strip unless absolutely necessary. That's kind of the process that every local goes through is eventually weaning yourself away from the strip and towards like the regular loss. Vegas city, which is, you know, it's a pretty significant city. But yeah, I mean, obviously I get why most people come here and they just kind of check into one of these places and stay there because it's, that's what you're, you know, that's what they expect you to do. And it's nothing wrong with that. Right. But as time goes on, you start to see sort of a wider, a wider frame. All right. Next time, I'm, I'm, you're my tour guide. Let me take you off the strip. I'd be happy to do it,

man. Happy to do it. Okay. Awesome. All right. So I want to get into your story because you know, I've heard practically anyone that is cross paths of that institution known as the source magazine I've spoken to in great detail, but I've never ever

really picked your brain just about the whole modus operandi of the place and whatnot. Let it be known that we've known each other for quite a long time, but we've actually yeah, we've never really had like a deep talk about it, which is great. Let's do it here. This is a good time to do it. Yeah.

Well, for starters, you and I have something in common. We're both from the city of Philadelphia. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Talk to me about your beginnings before you start the magazine. Like, what was your life basically before in the first half of the 80s? Okay, so I grew up in Center City, Philadelphia, which is, you know, literally like where the downtown part of Philly is, for those who don't know. And I went to school at a place called Friends Select, which is a Quaker school on 17th in the Parkway. I was there my whole childhood from kindergarten through 12th grade. So every single day in my life,

yes, I would walk, you know, through the city, past chestnut market, JFK, and then to the school, you know, being a young kid who was drawn to music at a very young age, you know, I used to listen to the radio, all the stations, from the pop stations to the rock stations to the urban slash black music stations. And I would walk through the city and you just, you know, you can't help, especially in the 80s in Philly, you can't help but soak up culture, you know, just walking around. I'm talking about fashion, music, you know, just sort of energy. I mean, we talk about music.

I mean, there I was in the city that was creating all this music. I didn't even realize what was happening around me. In other words, like some of my earliest memories about music are like, hearing like wake up everybody in like a pizza place in like 1977 i guess um and you know i didn't realize it was made in philly i had no idea but i just knew that it was something you know when you hear a song like that with that much you know emotional depth it kind of rewires your brain a little bit i think um you know not just that song all the philly soul that was that was around us um so basically i was drawn to music at a young age, but it wasn't until I was about in 11th grade at Friends Select

that I decided to do something about it. I had been spending a lot of time prior to that listening to records. I was really into disco. You know, disco was kind of my first love of music. First record I ever bought was Sheik Yowza Yowza, Yowza, Dance, Dance. Fun fact. Yes. According to Nile Rogers. Yes. The voice of yonzo, yonza is Luther Vandros. Wow. I did not know that.

That's awesome. Fun fact. Yes. I love it. I remember I bought the 45 on Atlantic Records. It was like a red label. And I would listen to it constantly. I will confess that I loved all disco, including the Bee Gees, the village people, everything else.

We all did. Yeah, we all did. Yeah. I mean, it was just great music. And the thing is for me, though, I also loved rock. So like, you know, back when it used to be disco versus rock, there was a huge conflict in like the late 70s where you had to pick a side and I could never pick a side. It was weird. Like there was like half the kids were like, you know, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Queen, you know, some of those groups ended up doing disco records too.

But, you know, but basically there was this big conflict. I could never pick a side. I always liked both. And I just like wrote it out that way. But then when I got to 11th grade, I was so into hip hop at that point. It's like 1984. And, you know, run DMC, the fat boys, Houdini, LL Cool J, Curtis Blow. You know, I loved all those groups.

And I decided that I wanted to work in radio. So I forced my way into the building at Power 99 FM, WUSL. You used to work for Dave. what's his name at Power 99? There was a... Abe Allen, sorry. Yeah, that was the... I think he was the PD.

Yeah. When I was... But when I walked in, it was a... There was a newly hired MD and his name was Tony Gray. And he called his on-air name, and this is kind of silly.

His on-air name was Mike Jackson. Mike Jackson? Remember Mike Jackson? The man who invented the Power 9 at 9? That's correct. That is correct. Mike Jackson. So Mike Jackson...

He had a whole, like... That's an alias? Yeah. Like, can you imagine picking that as your alias? I mean, it kind of doesn't make sense, but that's what he did. Smart. Okay. So I walked in.

It was kind of like one of those, remember in Wayne's world when, what's the guy's name, like handsome George or something like that, a gorgeous George? And they walk in and he has this huge voice and they walk in, there's like a very kind of little guy and he doesn't look, he looks kind of nerdy. Right. It was very similar to that. It was very similar. He had this.

I never knew what he looked like, yo. Yeah, he had this like very powerful like voice. He was doing the evening drive. So he was on from I think like six to ten. Mike Jackson on the power nine at nine. Oh my God. Exactly. Exactly.

So I was in. Wow. Yeah. And so he was like, you know, he was kind of like a hero of mine. But he had just started like I think a few months before I got there. And it just so happened when I walked in and I wanted to be an intern.

And he was, he saw me. And he was kind of like a slim. kind of, you know, smaller dude. He had hair almost like a perm, but it was like a gumby perm. If you can imagine those two things going together. And anyway, he was very friendly to me.

I was totally nervous and, like, he took me in and he started talking to me. And, you know, basically we hit it off, like that first night. And I started working for him, like literally immediately. And back then it was like the radio station was, you know, they used carts, eight-track tapes. Yes, yes.

And you would like put that. And so the first job was there was like a pile of carts like on the floor with like 200 of them. I had to like sort through them and organize them and stuff like that. Can you explain something to me? Because, okay, so I am from the era. I mean, I've seen every era of radio, but first doing the radio, I do remember those eight-track carts.

Like, one, what was the purpose of it? Two, like, who would do those edits? Like, was the purpose to store? as much music as you can on that particular cart or like, what's the purpose of it? There was a combination. When I was there, they were still playing records for the most part.

But some songs, when they made into heavy rotation, would be on a cart. I think the main purpose of it also all ads and all drops, all announcements, all bumpers, all that kind of stuff was on the cart. But I believe the reason they used them was because when it finished, it would end up

right on cue. So it automatically, like you hit play, it would play whatever was on there and then it would stop and it would be immediately queued up again. So I think it was just the convenience of having, you pop it in and you know it's going to be right on cue. I believe that was the reason. So you don't have to look for the spot where.

Right. Yeah. So they're like, we have to play a song. So you just hit play and you know it's like, it's immediately, it's always on cue. So I'm pretty sure that was the reason that they used them or that was the purpose of the invention. But that was also a time and we can talk about this maybe as we get into it. but that was when DJs were doing edits on reel-to-reel.

So I actually witnessed some of the most amazing artistry you've ever imagined with a razor blade and like a reel-to-reel tape with those... Can I ask you something? Yes, yes, yes. Do you know who Yaman super mixes? Oh, man, I'm so glad you said that name. He was the king of the tape edit. He was our Latin rascals.

Latin rascals. He was all Latin rascals. Oh my God, I'm about to lose my mind. And I witnessed him making edits. I saw him in person making edits. And I saw exactly. And he's totally forgotten. Nobody remembers he was. And where is he? As I recall, he was like an Arabic gentleman, kind of coming up in the same exact style as Latin rascals in New York City. And he would make these phenomenal. I mean, like, I would walk into that room. and there would be like all the segments of tape would be hanging on the wall

because he would be, he would remember like, oh yeah, this is the chorus over here, this is the bridge, this is the whatever, you know, and,

you know, he would go in with that blade and there would be like that little piece of metal that you would put the tape in and you'd slice and then you'd like put like a white piece of like masking tape like together. Right. And the tape would go all the way through the tape machine, then all the way back around the pole and back again

so that you could get the, the right length for the tape, you know? So, yeah, and then as you'd watch it go by, you'd see all the little white strips, like all the edits, you know? And it was amazing, yeah. That was like a crazy artistry that a totally forgotten art form. Yaman, Yaman's super mix was like pro tools before pro tools. Like, whenever he would do a mix, then I'd get on, like,

we would have like three JBC ghetto blasters at the crib. Yeah. And I would try to emulate whatever I heard him doing because that's how I thought people made remixes and shit. You mean, with the set, you'd make a pause tape to try to make it like an edit. Yes, we all did that too. I would do anything to hear any of that stuff again, man. He was brilliant. He was absolutely brilliant.

There was also a Philly DJ named Jeff Mills. Yes, Jeff. Jeff Mills. Jeff Mills, Mills. That is unbelievable, man. Yes, exactly. Yeah. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or we're at

wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield. And in this new season

of the girlfriends, oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no.

I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ago Wodom.

My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo. Woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent.

He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about it. which is really sweet. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.

Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar.

This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd

found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Lesbian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So that's the world I walked into when I was just like a, you know, a high school kid. and it was sort of the aftermath of when Power 99 had become a black station already, but they still had a lot of remnants of sort of their CHR. Yeah, like kind of like dance music, you know.

Barmer Summers and all those people. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Jeff Wyatt is another name that was back then. Yep. But anyway, so Tony Gray, aka Mike Jackson and I, we hit it off. And I started working for him.

And I was also very close friends with Jojo Davis, who was the nine. nighttime, night flight 99. It was the overnight, kind of the Phillies version of the quiet storm. Well, there was a quiet storm. The way it would work is Mike Jackson would play from 6 to 10. Then there was a quiet storm. And then night flight 99 will come on. And that was like the overnight shift.

Yeah. And Jojo was actually a relative of Miles Davis. I think it was his nephew. I never knew that. He was the one that, you know, it was like when I was with Tony Gray, he was a very, serious dude. He was a hardworking kind of not partying type guy. He would show up for work. He cared about the

business. He was straight-laced. Then I would leave for the quiet storm because that was actually no DJ. It was just like they were just playing like records. And that would be you'd hear like, you know, like Shirley Murdoch and stuff like that. And then... Were all those like pre-taped or like done live? I think there was someone in the studio playing

records, but they had a list. I think they had like a playlist they had to follow. Okay. And they had the great sound effects with like the rainstorm, if you remember. And it would put you in the mood. But then I would come back. So I would leave with Tony Gray and he would leave and I would leave and go to a friend's house.

And then midnight, I would come back to the station. And it was Jojo Davis. And that was when the party was on. So we would like hang out. And that was where you could get loose. And, you know, that was where I met all this people and talked about music and the whole nine yards. Wow, man. So how influential as the intern, like even where I work now at 30 it's the interns here that keep me hip to what's next. You know what I mean? Like I'm in my 50s,

but my interns here in the 20s, they're the first ones to, you know, Quest, you up on this, you up on this, you up on this. So there's always the intern that knows what tomorrow is. Were you that voice for them? To some extent, I think I was because I was very into hip hop. So at that moment in time, hip hop had not really become the main programming. It was still, the program was great. I mean, listen, it was the 80s. It was the best era of music, I think, of all time. But what was great about the programming was that it was very diverse and very funky and very, you know, and I loved it. But there wasn't enough hip hop from my taste. So I was in there. pushing. I was in there pushing low key on the hip hop side. This is what happened. So the spring of

85, my mother's side of the family is from California. Spring of 85, we do our pilgrimates to Los Angeles and we'll stay out there for like three to four weeks. So say like a month or so. And, you know, it's very different. 85 Los Angeles was night and day from 85 Philadelphia. And Greg Mac and KDAY was, you know, AM was the first 24-hour hip-hop radio station. They're playing a lot of their Malaco records, like a lot of the West Coast stuff. Like, Ronnie, what's his name, California? And it was out of part, like, basically like post-electro, that sort of stuff. And, um.

LA Dream Team, stuff like that. Yeah, all that stuff. Yeah, Dr. Dre's shit. And so that's the summer of Todi T's. Batter Ram, right? Yeah. And they're playing it constantly. Constantly playing it constantly.

Constantly. So in August, when we get back to Philadelphia, and I get on the block where all my friends are, and we're sort of just trading and comparing notes, you know, something happened in the summer of 85 in which suddenly hip hop was allowed in the evening. and I don't know what a lottie dot. Do you know how stupid one has to feel when everyone's like, what do you mean you don't know lotty-dadi in the show?

And I'm like, no, yo, it's about battering. Now, the way that L.A. people were acting to Tattie T's batteram, I put it on for them and they looked at me like, like it was the first time I witnessed like a cultural. Yeah, the regional difference. A regional difference. And I played my song first. and they weren't impressed at all.

And then they played me Laity-Dotty. And, you know, they're taping off the radio. So this is how I know what a Power 9-N-N-9 is. You know, Mike Jackson, the number one song is Lottie-Dottie. You remember when the show and Lottie-Di-Di were like number one for like almost nine-month. So how does a record like that crack the mainstream in a way that pre-spring of 85, I'm only used to, you know, Lady B show on Sunday for three. hours and nothing else.

Maybe Drexel will have like an hour of it. But talk to me about like the inside of the machine. Like how are they penetrate that unpenetrable system? So, you know, you're right on the time because that was literally when I was getting involved there, 85. And I, as time went on, I actually took over that power 9 and 9. I was the person that was compiling that was supposed to be based on requests. So there was kind of like a, there was a balance there. I'm going to ask you the discombabobobulated, boobulator question next.

We'll talk about MC Breeze, no problem. That's my buddy. Okay. But yeah, so I would make a chart. And, you know, in the beginning, they didn't really trust me to do it. But after I'd been there for, you know, a number of months, they saw that I kind of knew what I was doing. So they would let me literally make the whole top nine.

And it was always, it was kind of like a little bit of science, a little bit of creativity. kind of mixed together, you know, like it would be the science part is they did have requests and they did have a system for logging these requests. So you did see what was like actually the most requested. But as you know, those kind of move, it's kind of a backwards looking stat, you know, like requests kind of can be almost like what's already a hit usually, you know what I mean? And so I had to also kind of bring in a little bit of the newness. And I'm not saying it was all me. there was a lot of forces in play. The biggest force is just the, you know,

it was a combination of run DMC breaking down those big barriers. You know, I think they were the biggest reason why hip hop broke through, but there was a lot of other records, you know, Force MDs, I mean, like, you know, Dougie Fresh. And so it was like, yeah, it was just kind of,

you know, it just slowly happened. And so they, at some point along the line, but you're dead on correct in that the regular station rotation would not include these records, but during the Power 9 at 9, we were allowed to put in what the streets really wanted to hear. And then, of course, on Sundays with Lady B, that was an all-out, you know, that was like the center of hip-hop and Philly, basically. You know, that was the most important show. But the big songs would break through, and they would end up hanging around on the chart, on that Power 9 chart for a long time. And, you know, one of the biggest got to be,

definitely, what I think is you could argue one of the greatest 12-inch singles of all time is the show and laity dada. I mean, that's like, you know, you can't beat that. You know, so it became a religion. And it did. It was huge in Philly, huge as big as can be. But you know what else was huge in Philly? And I'm curious to hear if you see if you remember, shout by tears for fears was massive in like, like, the Craig G. Oh, the Craig G. I was, that came up the other day. I was actually there the day that one of the good men showed up from pop art records and dropped off that. Craig G's shout record. I remember, actually, I was in the studio.

What? Yeah, it was... You got pop art stories? I got pop art stories. In Veronica's stories? Yo, forget the source. We could just talk about your first two years at Power 99. Oh, man.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but I was going to say, the point I do want to make, though, about those days was that, and this is something that has followed me in my whole life. When the station brass was deciding, like, what to program, there was this very open attitude. Anything funky was okay. So that was a time when you could turn on a black radio station here, tears for fears.

You could hear the TomTom Club and Talking Heads. You could hear hollow notes and many other examples of stuff like that, which that has always been my kind of like DNA guiding philosophy is like if it's funky, it doesn't matter who's making it. And somewhere along the lines, it got more segregated, I think, like music. Yeah, you know. But back then in the 80s, you know, those records were as big as like, you know, Alexander O'Neill or Shirel or something like that.

You know, they were just side by side. Fun fact, the first time I heard, this is a weird trivia moment, the first time I heard shout on Power 989, I lived on Osage Avenue. Wow. I lived on 52nd in Osage Avenue. Okay. And every Philadelphia, my age, knows what happens on May 13th, 1985 on Osage Avenue.

Of course. The bombings. So the thing was because this drama has been brewing all week. You know, Jack Jones was like on his, it's almost like being live at Vietnam. Like, he'd be behind the cars, like, reporting. And it seemed contained. I mean, back then it was just about like, okay, there's gun exchange between the move organization and the police. So when they drop the bomb on top of the house, you know, for like three hours it seemed like it was contained.

But then when it spread to another block, then we started getting concerned, like, okay, well, we live here. And this scene seems to be spreading, like, how late will it be until it comes to our block? and there was a moment where our block captain around like 11 p.m. Kind of just gave the warning like, look, you know, I'm in contact with the other block captains and whatnot. If they don't contain that fire, maybe at three, four in the morning, we might have to vacate our crib. So it was almost like a pack what's important, that sort of thing. and I remember having the radio on while we were packing like in case we had to go to my grandmoms house or whatever

and I looked at the radio and I was like wait what the hell is tears fears doing on power 90s not like it was just you remember hearing that song during the move crisis you're saying right yeah yeah I remember of course that was a major moment for Philly we were all like you know it was on the it was live it was covered live you know there was like live shots yeah that was crazy that was a crazy moment So what was your Philly nightlife experience like? Like were you ever an attendee of, I'm about to call it the spaghetti warehouse after midnight?

The mid. They used to call it the mid. Oh, word? Yeah, the mid was like the abbreviation. I was too young to get into after midnight, but I would, now I'm too old for almost everything. But back then I was too young to get into after midnight. But I remember hanging outside and I met all the people involved. and there was actually a white guy

that was like, I think, running after midnight. I can't remember his name. And if you remember, there was this, the most incredible L.L. Cool J. freestyle came out of After Midnight. And it's like, he's rhyming over T. La Rock, it's yours. It's yours. Yeah.

And it's like magic. That shit was so powerful and so amazing. Last year, when we toured with L.O., the amount of begging we had to do to get him. He only did it once. Like that was going to be his encore before we did rock the bells together. Wow. Wow. Like he has zero clue or how much of a spiritual experience that was for most of the tri-state area and the amount of tape trading and that sort of thing.

Oh, forget. Listen, and I figured this is going to come up later, but I saw the force tour when you guys came to Vegas. And, man, oh, man, you guys, I mean, I've seen so I've seen literally probably, you know, hundreds. of rap shows in my life, but I'm serious. That was the greatest rap concert I have ever seen in my life. And that includes the Fresh Fest 1, Fresh Fest 2, all the classic public enemy concerts, all that. Thank you, you deserve it because it was so well choreographed, so well run. There was no downtime.

It was like constant action on the stage. And with those three Philly guys in the middle, it was flawless. And I think, like, you really raised the bar for, what a rap answer can be. You know what? Yo, dude, it's hitting me right now as we speak. One of the key pivotal moments in Roots history.

You came to the Tricadero and witnessed your first Roots performance. Mm-hmm. And you gave me real constructive criticism. I took it to heart and applied it. He was like, hey, it was dope, but listen, you got to figure out a way to engage your audience and grab them in

and you taught me about formatting. You said, you guys are going heavy on the jazz drum soloing and all that stuff, but, you know, I think a dope thing

you all you should consider is occasionally in your song like pepper it like condiments with hip-hop references that people would know, we did that while we were a busking group. But then we decided, you know, when you're busking and you're playing for like three to four hours on the corner, you're going to run out of shit.

So, you know, it was easy to tell your upright bass player. All right, start with discursions. All right, let's go to bugging out. Okay, let's go to rap promoter. All right, let's go to, like, we would literally go through the entire tribe discography because this is drum and upright bass. But once we got like, okay, we're not playing on the streets no more. Let's do all original material. and you told me, it's like, yo, man, like, y'all got to bring back, and you said hip hop one-on-one,

and I had a meeting the next day with the dudes, and they were like, all right, well, let's see what happened. And that single-handedly, like, I totally forgot that you kind of were the spark that started that moment of me figuring out the show as in format terms and how to pace things and all and stuff. I totally forgot that. Amir, how often do you call audibles during a show? Do you do that ever? Like in the middle of a show, like you feel the crowd, you feel a thing. Like if all of a sudden L.L. is like, let's do this. Do you ever audible?

I've never seen you do that, but I know you talk all the time to the band. You know, it's so weird, man, because I come from the Prince School of presentation. You know, George Clinton used to always joke that Prince will rehearse his spontaneity. Like, and do I ever allow for a moment that requires that this past weekend in which of this taping, I will call it the Microsoft Gate Domino effect. There was a Microsoft update effect that affected any business that used Microsoft including airports and hotels and whatnot. So as a result, this past weekend, we were doing fragmented root shows.

Like, you know, somehow we went from a trio to Earthwind and Fire. Like there's 11 of us now. And so we were kind of reduced. We were reduced to a seven-man group, which, you know, because I am somewhat of a former creature of habit, if there's a monkey wrenched over my way, yes, I'm able to adjust. Do I like that? I hate it. For me, I want the well-oiled, well-rehearsed version of perfection for everyone to say. it. But I will say that in the last month or so, I'm purposely calling shit. While Rieke's

mid-third verse, I'm like, yo, do you remember without a doubt from things fall apart? And he'll be rhyming. Like, Tarika has the ability to communicate with me as he's still rhyming. And shake his head, yeah, I know. Or he'll say like two verses. Like, I know that much. And then, you know, Stro, download a Saturday night real quick by School E. Just take the drum break from the beginning. Like literally in the last month and a half or so, I've been sort of

in that place to see if I can leave my comfort zone because right now we have way too much material. And especially with these records that we have coming out in 2025, like I'm going to have to literally throw this entire perfect show away and start all over again.

So this time I'm looking forward to. Previously, I had dread. Like, man, we got to build it from the beginning. But, you know, I feel as though that's, that's my life lesson, like, pivoting and that sort of thing. So that was why the Force Tour was so great was the greatest hype man in the history of hip-hop. I mean, there's nobody ever who can, you know, he's a center MC. He's the star.

But then when he's time for him to be the hype man, he's the greatest height man of all time. And, you know, you guys got so much out of like a rock. Kim, who's not necessarily known for being a great live performer, but you guys certainly worked so you got the max you could get out of a lot of these people. And also, the Stroh Elliott aspect was another thing because you had, you know, real 808 and all that stuff on there. And like, I mean, you figured it out. You figured out the formula. Whereas, you know, in other rap shows of the past, it used to be long delays and, you know, miscommunication, no choreography, you know, et cetera, et cetera, you know.

A win is a win. A win. A win. A win. A win. is a way. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes,

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and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Farrell. Woo. Woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day. And I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot.

I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through and I know it's a place that come look for up-and-coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved.

Mm-hmm. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

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This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So when did you leave Power 99? When I graduated from high school in 1986, that was the end of my Power 99 time. What year was it when the story you just told about when, and when I saw your show and made some comments. What year was that? Was that like 1991, 92?

That was 93. 93? Okay. Us and Master Ace were at, the layup was kind of like a view from the undergrounds, you know, whatever those cartoons, whoever like C's and tramp and all those guys. C, yeah, yeah, good call.

Yeah, yeah. Philly guys, like, they had one of the very first examples of what I call, like, your hip-hop shop. Now every city has. A hip hop shop where there's the t-shirt and the gear. But, you know, if you wanted to get fresh jive shirts or your skateboard gear or, you know, what Supreme is now. Yeah. That's, you know, so Keith McPhee, our longtime production manager owned one of those hip-hop shops.

And he used to work at Soundam Market. And he organized his show. And I think, yeah, it was us, Master Ace. I think Onyx made their debut in Philly at night, but you guys, you guys came, and I was, like, excited. Like, yo, the guy from the sorcerer or here, oh, my God. Like, I think that's the first time we had, like, our first rehearsal. We never rehearsed. We were just, like, go off the top and whatever.

And I think the nervousness of preparing something sort of took off our game where we were a little too serious about it and not. And you told us, like, y'all didn't do the things. that I heard about you guys doing. And I was like, yeah, you're right. Like, I was over preparing. And I learned to bring back hip hop one-on-one. Nice. Now, do you, before we leave Philly,

I just want to just mention one more part of Philly, which is, did you ever hear of Rubber Park? Does that name of Ring a Bell at all? Rubber Park? Rubber Park was a park that, like, as the name implies, was covered in, like, a rubber substance. It was down on, it was down on Delaware Avenue, kind of near South Street, like Bainbridge,

around like Bainbridge and Delaware Avenue. Back, I'm talking about in like 85, 1985, 1984, 85. That was where I got my, it was past South Street. You'd have to walk. It's right along the river. Like when, you remember how there used to be like parks and things right along the river there? And that was where I got my first dose of real hip hop culture. That was where, you know,

people would break dance, graffiti, rap, all of it. Not DJ, but... Is this like Second Street or Delaware Avenue? Delaware Avenue, like it was like facing the water, like right, you know, like close to the water. You know what? I'll be honest with you, because of crack era, like, after that limb-bias story broke out, my dad and mom were like super vigilant, super vigilant. like before that Oprah theme comes on yeah it's better be in this crib and da-da-da-da-da-da-da so like

well you're like four or five years younger than me so I think that's probably why you know I wasn't that old either but you know I was making my way down there right that was that the reason I mentioned is just because no one ever mentions it and it's like that was one of the first places in downtown Philly that real hip-hop culture emerged it was because there's a proximity to South Philly there's you know there's a lot of neighborhoods in that area that where there was real hip-hop culture and they kind of kids would gather in that park and that was a time when I was like just consuming all the records like you know like sort of all the big names like fat boys who don't get in who don't get enough love by the way

you're right I love the fat boys I people um I was listening to can you feel that yesterday um which is one of my favorite songs right I'm pretty sure Larry Smith produced that I'm not exactly I think so heard is blue but a jay Curtis and Larry were adjacent. Hove told me that was his first record he ever purchased. Can you feel it? The very first Fat Boys record was the first album. Wow.

The album, yeah, yeah. Okay. Anyway, so that was it. I was just curious if you had heard of that locale in Philly. Nah, like, really, I didn't start. I only hung with adults. Like, if I had free time, I was in the family business, traveling with my dad a lot.

during school time I always came straight home never allowed to hang out and then kind of when I met Tariq that's when the sort of range were like lifted a little bit where maybe I can go to a movie or that sort of thing but

like my first real act of rebellion was yo let's go bust on South Street you know right because even then the thing was like wait take my drums on South Street my dad will kill me like it was that

that type of, that type of atmosphere. So for those who, who were from back in the 80s, South Street was, it didn't have a lot of hip hop when I first started hanging out there. It was all punk rock. It was a punk rock place. And they had that zipperhead, record, clothing store. And there was a record store right by there. I would go to gym stakes.

I live very close to Jim Stakes. Still there. I would go to gym stakes like all the time. And then, you know, even just by being there on South Street, I wasn't really a punk. rock guy, but I got into it because it was all around. Yeah, it was happening at the same time as hip hop as we all know. So there was kind of a, there was a pairing there. There was some connection.

So I was, you know, exposed to a lot of punk rock at that stage. But it wasn't until later that it became more of like a hip hop street, you know. But in the beginning, it started as a hippie place, you know, back in the day. And then it evolved until like, yeah, counterculture. My sister was slightly older, so she would hang on South Street with their girlfriends, and there was like that ice cream spot once upon a porch or something like that. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. Like, I remember South Street when it was actual like the village, like counterculture, and then.

Totally. Yes. And the gap and Tower Records came and then. Yes, exactly. Starbucks and then, you know, it's anywhere up. Right. So if you're friends select, and obviously, of course, this makes you Ivy League material. what were your other college options?

Like, why did you choose Penn? Wait, what did you say? Harvard. No, Harvard. Why did you choose Harvard? Well, okay. I had some. What was your essay about?

That's very point. Where did you want to be? What were your SAT scores? I want to know all the shit, Jackie. Let's get it. Okay. So what happened was when I got to senior year, you know, I was kind of living this dual life because I would go and hang out with all the Power 99 people.

and, you know, I would still go to school every day. I was kind of doing both. I was burning the candle at both ends kind of thing. And I was able to be, I was a good student for the most part, and particularly with English. I was like, you know, I was a English major type guy. You know, I was reading and writing and focusing on books and stuff, that kind of thing. you know, in addition to working at Power 99, I also started writing about hip hop at a very, like, early stage, like in like 84, 85. I was writing articles for not only in my school newspaper, but also there was a newspaper on South Street.

It was called the, I can't even remember what it was called, maybe the South Street Star, possibly, but. It was like our village voice or something? It was like a village voice type, exactly. It was like a village voice. It didn't last probably that long, but so I was starting to write like, like, Like, you know, these, what ended up being what I do with the source, I started at a, you know, in Philly, um, writing about rap. And I would attend, it was mainly because I was going to the concerts and I was, you know, writing about that. So like, you know, Fresh Fest 1, Fresh Fest 2. Um, there was a concert called the Philly versus New York battle. I remember that. You remember that. Okay. I remember hearing about it, but I wasn't. Yeah. Okay. Wait. I'm one of those, uh, hip hop stages. elders, whatever you want to call me. You don't say.

There will be some times where like I'll revisit something from 30 years ago that I swore. Basically the Mandela Effect. Are you familiar with that term, the Mandela Effect? No, what is that? No, but I like it when you refer to yourself as Mandela, though. Here we go. Wait, wait. You guys don't know what the Mandela Effect is?

I've never heard of this about. Okay, so the Mandela Effect is kind of like a good version. of an urban legend. Like basically, I think Mandela Effect started with people thinking that the Mandela funeral was televised. Like, I could have sworn that happened,

and it didn't happen. You know, like six degrees of Kevin Bacon was like a thing in pop culture. Yeah. Now the term the Mandela Effect. Okay, so some common examples of the Mandela Effect have logical explanations like,

Mr. Monopoly, wearing a monocle, fashion satirical. Like, Mr. Monopoly doesn't wear a monocle, but we think he does. I understand. So it's like a mistaken memory that everyone shares that is not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. It says widespread false memories that large number of people or groups believe. Got it. Right. And just like in my version of it is, you know, I will return to the storied summer of 1988 in which everything was changing our lives. But then I'll go back and listen to it. And then I'll be like, okay, was this sophomore album as good as I thought it was in

terms of the folklore and whatnot? And let's just say that, like, if you were to put a gun in my head and basically say like, all right, was this really a classic record? Were you just in your moments? I talked to this with L.L. Like, you couldn't tell me shit about walking with the Panther in 89. But when I let five years ago by, I went back to it. I was like, okay, I see where the ridicule came in. But I still hold that album precious to me, even though it's not as classic as my 17-year-old mindset it was. So I'm just asking you, were rap shows back then as you remember it, as legendary as we thought it was, or was it just like, okay, shows are better now?

even though the feeling is better than... My take on it is, if you want to talk about 1988, I still believe to this day that 88 was the most incredible year for hip hop. I will always believe that. I think 88 was the pinnacle of hip hop. However, when it came to the shows, as I said, a lot of them were problematic. I mean, you know, like, even though I was loving it,

there was nothing for us to compare it to. In the early days in Philly, I would witness crazy scenes of, you know, at the door, inside the... the venue. This is mostly at the spectrum. That was most of the shows I would go to were out the spectrum. You would see people getting thrown off the balcony. I mean, it would be crazy shit. Oh yeah. Oh, crazy stuff. I mean, throughout, you know, most of those shows, there would be some crazy incidents. I mean, for the most part, they were fine. There was not, you know, nobody died,

I don't think, but, you know, there was, there was, there was, they weren't well put together shows, but I think it was, we were so starved for, you know, back then there weren't very even videos really for most songs so you were just kind of seeing the artist all you saw was the record cover and then what was in the venue right there with you you know so there was I think the moment was so like I mean I saw all those shows all those amazing and especially and you want to talk about 88 Chuck D often refers to a certain show at the Philly Spectrum in 1988 as the greatest hip hop concert of all time and I agree it was I mean you know of that era anyway it was right

when Nation of Millions was red hot. And it was like perfect, perfect timing. Also on the bill was Rakim and Eric B, L.L, Stets of Sonic, I think Big Daddy Kane, like a whole bunch of great artists. But I just remember Nation of Millions being at the pinnacle of that moment and just like the energy was, you know, through the roof. I mean, obviously that record had captured the hip-hop generation almost like no other. That album, yeah.

So were any of your hip-hop contemporaries, those of age at least, even thinking of traveling up north to the Latin quarter to witness it or? As you all know, if you guys grow up, if you grow up in Philly, there's always this sort of New York is like this big imposing like big brother like next to you. You know what I mean? It's like we we always admired it, respected it, maybe feared it, maybe didn't understand. you know, we wanted, we, we were jealous of it, but then we acted like we weren't jealous of it. You know, there was this, there was this whole sort of thing where New York was the big city and Philly was like, you know, the sixth borough of New York or something like that, you know. And we were, you know, always drawn to it for sure.

I was probably too young during the prime of the Latin Quarter era to go there, but I did end up going there later in like 88, I think I went there. but there was, you know, there was always that sort of love-hate relationship. You remember when Double D.N. Steinsky had a record that was the, you know, that great mashup record. Yes. It was such a great song, right? It was one of the first mashups ever. And you remember at one part that used to go, New York is red hot.

Yes. New York is red hot. Right. And everyone in Philly used to go, New York ain't shit. New York ain't shit. And then around that same time, you brought up MC. discombobobolator boobulator, right? And then the flip side was a song called,

It Ain't New York because Philly is stepping in. You know that song? I know. I have the 12 inch. Yeah, the B side to discombobolator or boobulator, which was a song about, you know, pro-Philly anti-New York kind of sentiment. So, yeah, it was always there as kind of like this big imposing place.

And eventually all of us ended up making our way there one way or another, you know. Yeah, because I could have sworn that you were just, straight up New Yorker. I didn't realize that you had Philly Ties and I was shocked. I was like, oh shit, okay, I see. So yeah, like your time at Harvard, when you're graduating,

what do you want to be? What are you aspiring to be? Graduated high school? Yeah, when I was graduating high school, I wanted to be, I think I just wanted to be on the radio. I think that was kind of my main goal or my

main sort of, I knew I wanted to be around music somewhere on the, I guess, on the business side of music or on the broadcasting side of music. And to answer your question, I got into Penn as well. And then they let you, Penn allowed you, if you lived in Pennsylvania and you applied to Penn, you got in early, then you could still apply to other schools. So once I got into Penn, then I just went for the number one place. And I got rejected from Yale and Princeton, but I got into Harvard. You showed them. Yeah.

But anyway, as I went there, I mean, I pretty much remember that my first real mission upon arriving at Harvard was radio station. So I went right down to WHRB, which was the school's radio station. It was primarily a classical station. Of course, it was. It's Harvard. It's Harvard, yes. It was exactly as you would pick up.

it um you know it had islands and harpsichael exactly that music was playing right exactly and exactly and so like they had an urban music department um but it was only on the weekends um but i signed up for it um there was a time slot allotted on like friday and saturday night for urban music it had a very unfortunate name the darker side TDS. It had nothing to do with race. It was because it was at night, okay?

But it was still a dumb name. Yes. Okay. Anyway, so I walk in and I'm like, listen, I came in with all, and now I got all the Power 99 experience under my belt. I feel like I know more than everyone else. You know, I walk in and they say, okay, I'm like, I'm filling out the form of like any past experience and I write like, you know, extra sentences like about all the stuff I've been doing

with Power 99 and all this other stuff. stuff and then they just put me in a room with all the other beginners and I have to just pay my dues and kind of like, you know, be an intern for them, you know, like when you're a freshman, you kind of have to, just like in any program in college, you have to like pay your dues and, you know, show that you're really serious about working there and all that stuff. So I start to go through that process. And, you know, they didn't have a rap show. It was, it was really just R&B, a straight R&B. straight R&B kind of thing. A little bit of dance music, I think.

So mostly Anita Baker and Luther and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was at night, so more up-tempo stuff, I guess. And, but again, this is now... So I graduated in 86, so now we're talking about, like, you know, we're entering one of the prime times of hip-hop, golden era time. Right. I consider golden era, and everyone has their own definition,

I consider golden era 84 to 94. That's just my opinion. Everyone has their own opinion, but that's my personal opinion. Fair. From Run DMC to like Biggie. Yeah, to Nause basically. Yeah, exactly. But at any rate, so I'm in there and I'm starting to like, you know, do all the things I'm supposed to do to get involved with this radio station.

And I'm in my dorm room one day. And I'm listening to Go See the Doctor by Cool MoD. I remember I had that 12-inch vinyl. and I hear a knock at my door. It's in the college dorm room, you know, and I open the door. And I see a white guy standing there with a red feel-out sweatsuit and a mustache. And he's like, hey, I heard you playing that music. You into that kind of music?

And I was like, yeah. And he's like, hey, I'm Dave. And it was Dave Maze, my future partner in the source. But that was at the very beginning. He walks in and we start talking. and we're two white guys who are there who both love black music. He was really into Go-Go music in particular, which I knew very little about.

I mean, I knew like very little, like only like Chuck Brown and the soul searchers and the very basics. Was he from the DMB? He's from DC, yeah. Yeah, he's from... Makes sense. Yeah, he's from DC, you know, and so we were kind of like sharing with each other,

like, you know, showing each other, you know, records. And, you know, I think my argument it's a little bit more convincing. If you're playing somebody rap records and they're playing Ugogo records, I mean, there's way more records that you can play, you know. But we became friends.

And in the beginning, he was working for the school paper selling ads. And he had a knack for selling ads, as we soon all learned. And he was selling ads for, like, the Harvard Crimson, which is like a famous school newspaper. And I was like,

hey, man, you didn't realize that if you, you don't, You might not know, but if you come down to the radio station, you sell ads, they let you keep a commission. He's like a commission because when you were selling ads over there, they didn't let him keep a commission. He's like, they really? And I was like, yeah, come on down. So I brought him down to the station. And, you know, he started doing the same thing I was doing, which is like go through the whole initiation process and so forth.

But then pretty quickly, you know, to make a long story short, we kind of teamed up with a couple of other students, not famous people. just other students that were there at the time. And then, you know, we started doing this, like, rap show. I mean, it started very small. Did you have to get permission to do this? Yeah, we had to, like, go through the whole. It took about a year. It took about a year for us from when I first went down there to us actually getting a rap show.

It was probably a year later. It took, like, a whole year. It was probably sophomore year that I actually got the show. And what I did was I went back to Philly and went to Power 99 and walked in and saw some old friends, walked right into the studio, the B room, like not the on-air studio, but the production studio. And I took every single one of Lady B's on-air IDs and drops and recorded them. So like, you're listening to Street Beat, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. And I went back down to, I went back up to Cambridge.

And I was like, Dave, I got it. And I had a cassette. And it was, we're going to call our show Street Beat. And so I basically got, you know, there were other rap shows that Boston had like, only on college radio, but there was like. Oh, see, she's saying if it's like, yo, this is Chuck D. And you're checking out the sounds of street beat. You took all the drops of like.

Not artists, but more so like official, like the official radio IDs. Who is that guy? Who is that guy? There was some guy who was getting a lot of work. Yeah, that guy was getting a ton of work back then. There's always somebody like that. But, you know, it was like, you know, cold rocking the planet with street beat, you know, all that kind of stuff. Right, right.

And so that gave us an edge because, you know, now we have a more, we have a very professional sounding like station, a radio show, you know, because we have these drops. So I came back. I remember just by randomly that. Around the same time, I had the 12-inch for Mantronics and Just Ice. It was around that same time, whatever. You know, there's a lot of those kind of records. I was bringing records back that no one in Boston had heard yet. You know, I was basically like, you know, the connection to like getting records ahead of everybody

just because of really just going to like Sounds of Market, Funko Mart, those kind of places. You weren't getting service yet. You still have to buy. The station did get service, but yeah, but most of the good ones I had to. by, yes. So what was the general attitude or the atmosphere at Harvard for this music? Like, were they open or was it just like a small 2% of y'all were really hip hop heads? That's a great question. I mean, I think it was pretty reflective of the general population at that time, whereas hip hop was still an underground form of music. Because you're in college. Did you yourself

see the license to ill effect happen at rapid speed? Licensed to ill was an important inflection point. I think glad you brought that up because that happened actually right in in 86, late 86, right? So that was when I, it was right around the time when I met Dave, honestly, and the beginnings of what would become the source was happening. But license to ill was a huge, huge. influence on not just me, but I mean, so many people, you know, were influenced by that record.

I remember that I was actually, I was so into it that I, like, even made it like a focus of one of my freshman year classes. Like, you got to write a paper about whatever you want and I wrote about license to ill. And that was an important record for me, also being a white Jewish guy from the city, you know, kind of identifying. But the thing is that, you know, and now you... I didn't know the way to wait till we later. That's about to say, I was about to say that exact thing. Everyone in Philly thought they were Puerto Rican.

You just fessing, man. I don't know. Because the Beasty groove, Mike D sound like he was Puerto Rican. You just fessing, man. When you want to hear it, you just fessing. Right, exactly. And for some reason, everyone, you heard that they were Puerto Rican too, right? Because everyone in Philly, everyone in Philly is like, no, no, they Puerto Rican. And I'm like, uh, I guess.

I didn't know, you know, nobody knew because all we had was those crimson and Def Jam labels with no picture on. on it, you know. My science teacher is the one he saw the photo and he's like, hmm, because we brought the album to school and we were obsessed with the whole the backwards eat me thing on the airplay wing.

Yes. The wing or the album cover. And so when he looks at it and he saw the name Harwitz, he's like, oh, okay, some of my Jewish brothers. I was like, Jewish, like, white? He's like, yeah. I was like, no, man, white boys ain't that funky. Hey, Puerto Rican. Like literally,

it took forever. Like when I heard him speak on Soul Train, I was like, okay, Mr. Parrott might be right. They'd be white. What did you get down, Amir? What do you want to say?

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until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So how does what we know as the source get created in terms of it's starting out as a newsletter? So we eventually, so we started out with Dave and I and two other Harvard students who, because they were older and we were younger and they were kind of like, you know,

still like the seniority over us. But then, you know, over time, one of them fell off and the other one fell off and then eventually it was just me and Dave. that point we did find that the show was starting to get popular.

We would get a lot of phone calls like way more than any classical music fans aren't known for like ringing up the phone lines and

make him a request. You know, for the Beethoven, please. Yeah, I want to hear Tchaikovsky and E or whatever the phone. Right to spring right now.

Yeah. So we were like people in the station were always like mind blown by the amount of calls we were getting. we had competition

there was like two or three other college radio rap shows at the time so that was who we saw as our competition now around this time I should also mention that I also had a desire to be a rapper and heavily influenced by the Beastie Boys

of course a friend of mine from Philly and I started a white rap group called BMOC and we were Yeah, we were, you know, we didn't know what the hell we were doing, but we basically, somewhere along the line, another friend of ours who I think Amir, you know, will be of DJ of the Goats, who's one of my childhood lifetime friends. Will Will Braveman, yes, was going to NYU at the time. And we were all in college, in different colleges.

And Will met a young man by the name of Brett Ratner. and Brett Ratner I wish I never heard of him but anyway so what happened was whoever that is yeah so Brett Ratner who now everyone knows as a Hollywood guy and the two guy and all that stuff

but anyway he had learned about our existence heard one of our demos was interested in us so while the street beat on WHRB was starting to take off I was also trying to be a rapper so I was trying to be a rapper so I was

trying to write rhymes. I was trying to get beats. I was trying to make music. How, how were your grades? Well, you know, as the story goes on, as we get deeper into it, you know, like we got through it, but I majored in the source, basically. You know, that was like when I was at Harvard, I majored in the source. No doubt about it. I did get good enough grades to get through, but I wasn't like the top student or anything because we were just so focused on the magazine. But that was a little bit later.

But so leading up to that. You change tip up. You're forgiven. Thank you. Thank you. So leading up to that, though, like, so I was in, this is related to your questions. How did the source start? So basically, I was living in New York City in the summer of 1988.

I was working for Ted Demi and Fab Five Freddy at YoMTV Raps. Because I wanted, again, I wanted to, I was so, I was just trying to get into. the industry no matter what, you know. So I had arranged for a summer internship to work for YOMTV Raps. I'm also pursuing my rap career at the same time. How did you get in there? Like, like the, like, White Kid walks through the door. They're like, yes, yo, MTV Raps. Like, does that, that seems like a disconnect or did it work? I think if anything, that was a or maybe that was a thing. I mean, I don't know. If Laiiwere, she'd be like, yo, that's an instant. Yeah. I mean, you know, look, there was always the uniqueness of being white.

and sometimes I worked in my advantage, being easy to, you know, the only white guy in the room sometimes. Save. Yeah. But that's, that was, yeah, in this case, I honestly don't remember. I think I just wrote a lot of, like, mail, like, you know, pre-email. I wrote letters to people. And I was like, you know, I want to come to New York. And they're like, okay, you come work here.

I didn't last long there, actually, because they didn't treat me well. they didn't respect my my knowledge of music um they didn't understand they didn't know they they they treated me as you as low as you can get they famously they were so sick of me spouting my opinions about rap because i knew more than them i really did not not fab five but the other guys are working there they didn't know shit okay and i walked in and i knew way more about music than they did i knew it i recognized it right away but they didn't want to hear it so they basically opened a door it was like something out of a movie, you open a door and there's a tape, there's a room with like the entire history of YOMTV Raps to that point, like all the raw footage is sitting on

the floor. They say, hey, we got a job for you. Go into that room and watch every single tape and write down what's on it. So they shoved me in a closet. What a punishment. Yeah, with hundreds of tapes of the very earliest like year of YOMTV Raps. And I hated it. I also remember just as well have been my heaven i'm sorry i know you know it sounds it sounds like it's not that bad but i mean you know i wanted to be where the action was you know so is your quillin of having the peel potatoes in the cartoon like yes it's like an endless job that never with no no sunlight you know just like in the room so i also remember i was in the room the day that the manifest video from gangstars showed up words i manifest and if you remember that i think that

was their first video. I believe that was gangstar's first music video. I love the song. I already knew it because I loved everything on wild pitch. And I walk in and like, so if they, they pop it in, and Fab Five Freddy's in the room, Ted Demi, rest in peace, who was the executive producer of YomTV raps, and they play it. And I'm like, bopping my head going crazy. And I think it was almost like, it was almost like, just because I liked it so much, they wanted to not like it. I swear. And so they going. They're like, they're like, yeah, yeah, I don't really like it. That guy's voice, it's just weird. They're like, I don't even get it. Like, why is he dressed like Malcolm X? And I don't even get it. You know, if you remember, you had like the Malcolm X glasses on. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, yeah. And so they rejected it. They rejected the video. They ended up playing it way later, like six months later. But at any rate, after all that, I kind of like got turned off and I ended up quitting that job. But in the meantime, I was still, getting records and was super, super immersed in the music and also making music for whatever it's worth. And then Dave, meanwhile, and at this point now, we're getting up to the summer of 88.

So we had about one year of our rap show under our belt. And Dave stayed in Boston that summer while I was in New York. And Dave had an idea. He was like, hey, man, let's do something to promote the radio show. You know, like, I got this idea. Tell me what you think. And he made a one-page newsletter called The Source. And it was a yellow sheet, front and back.

And I received it in the mail. And I was impressed. I mean, it was very simple. You know, it was just literally like one piece of paper. But I got it right away. It should be noted also that the first rat magazine I ever saw was actually from Philly. It was Mike Ellie. When I say rat magazine, I mean, you mentioned the,

The black beets in the writer. But Mike Elliott, do you remember the name of that magazine? Crush Magazine. It was called Crush. He had a not a pay-per-view show, a public access show, right? Yes. Yes. Yes.

I remember him always advertising Fresh Magazine, but I never got it. So you got this newsletter. I had seen one other rap magazine that wasn't word up and right on, which were obviously teeny bopper. No one respected those. We all knew that. Crush was, I mean, maybe they served a. purpose. I'm not trying to, you know, they definitely came before me, but, you know, they weren't treating the music, you know, in a serious way. Crush was the first publication I saw that was talking

about real records. And, but again, it was very, it wasn't well put together. It was, it was, it was, and it wasn't, it only came out a few issues. I don't think it even really lasted that long. Right. So I had, I had some reference point as to what it could be, but that crush at that time was like, kind of the best, the only one. I remember I had the editor of Crush who actually came in New York at that time to visit. I met with her. She came to my home at that time because I guess I wanted to write for her maybe. At any rate, so I did receive that one issue.

And I thought it had potential. I went back to college in the fall of 88. And Dave and I connected. And right away, we became business partners. and you know this is the truth and anyone the all the rumors about how the source started and this and that Dave and I took $100 each and put $200 into a bank account and that was the beginning of the source it was Dave and I put in $100 each and I became the editor-in-chief in charge of all the content and Dave

became the publisher in charge of all the business magazine which includes selling ads which as I mentioned he had a particular skill at and he turned out to be really, really good at that. So that was the beginning of the source. Now, the source was initially designed to promote our college rap radio show. So it was all about, it was charts, some news, and it was very focused on Boston radio, which, Boston community and the hip-hop, the fledgling very small hip-hop community there. The first few issues were kind of along those lines.

and then we started distributing them in local Boston rap, be record stores, like Skippy White's is the most famous one. And that was the very beginning. And then, you know, pretty quickly, as we started publishing, we published our second issue, which had, I think, six pages. It was like four, it was like four pages with like one sheet in the middle. So it was like a total of six pages. That one had a picture of KRS in the corner. At the time when you're forming this, was there a mission statement or a mantra? Like, were you guys, like, what was your, besides just promoting the radio station,

was there a desire to see, like, critical think pieces written? So, good question. So in the beginning, I think we saw ourselves as more of a trade magazine. Like that was the initial. Like a billboard? Yeah. like the initial incarnation of the source, the first tagline was the voice of the rap music industry.

That's how we first framed it. So for the first year or two, I mean, maybe year and a half, the first like even 10 issues or so or eight issues, there was, and we weren't every month. I mean,

we were doing it as, we were totally just running it on our own. We had no education in this. We never took a class on journalism. We never took a class on how to run a business. any of that stuff. We just felt it out and did it all,

you know, trial and error, basically. But pretty soon, you know, initially we were, we were positioning ourselves as the voice of the rap music industry.

Now, I remember now a year later, the summer of 89, I was back in New York City in the same apartment, which was with Will Be, and it was right by NYU, and I got a call.

And it was, now it's 89. So everyone knows who Harry Allen is because I'm going to my media assassin and that voice. Don't believe the hype. You know, that. And so I picked up my phone and there's a message from a voicemail

from Harry Allen. And he was like, I'm calling for Jonathan Schechter. He's like, I see you're calling yourself the voice of the rap music industry. He's like, don't you know, there are many voices of the rap music industry. I'm a voice

of the rap music industry. Chuck D is a voice of the rap music industry. And I was, it wasn't necessarily a bad call, but it was kind of a challenging. It was a very Harry Allen phone call. A heavy Harry Allen type phone call, but he was calling. So it wasn't like necessarily bad. So I called him back. And I engaged him in conversation and we made plans for him to write something pretty early on.

But yeah, that got me thinking a little bit about who we were and what we were. and what we were doing. And then following that, I'm kind of compressing a lot of, you know, there's a lot of things in between, but basically at some point, I think in 89,

we changed our tag to the magazine of hip-hop music, culture, and politics. And that was when we made the decision to be a consumer-facing magazine and not an industry-facing magazine. Now, granted, we were still very small, and we were doing it all ourselves.

I mean, when I say ourselves, I mean, literally, Dave and I were like all hours of the night, you know, doing every single thing that you see in the magazine. I mean, we were laying out the magazine on the very first version of an Apple Macintosh, the very, very first, you know, the rectangle, you know. Taking hours to. Exactly. Like, we were using Quark Express and PageMaker, which were the very first desktop publishing software. and like we would be like yes like you would take like okay we want to put a picture there oh wait no move it to the right so you move it to the right and then you have to wait for the entire page to rebuild itself it would take like

an hour to do one thing i mean it was so slow because it was literally and also you had to those it was those hard floppy so you had to keep like insert disc a insert disc b insert disc you know what i mean It was like this incredibly time-consuming slow process, but we were doing it. You know, we would get on our hands and knees and sort the magazine. By the time, we were mailing out now at this point, we had a larger mailing list, and we would get on our hands and knees and sort the magazine by zip code, put him in a rubber band and put a sticker with the zip code on that pile of magazines. So it was like literally every little thing that you had to do, we were doing it ourselves.

I mean, how are you able to, in terms of getting content? Like, did you know all the publicists at Def Jam or Jive or whoever was hip-hop friendly at the time? Did you, like, how are you able to get FaceTime with them and sort of convince them that, you know, in addition to your blackbeats and your right-ons, that we should also. be a priority step? Early on, I think we were well received by the industry people, like publicists and marketing people and stuff like that. I think, you know, there was never any, I mean, you know, once in a while we would have to pursue somebody, but for the most part, once we established ourselves with the first maybe five or six issues, like people wanted to send us

records. So we started receiving all the records, all the press kits. And then the harder part was getting, you know, interviews, getting the artists. And, but yeah, that was just basically doing, you know, in the pre-internet days, I was all working the phones, getting people, you know, setting up interviews, which were also frequently conducted over the phone. And, yeah, and then starting to meet more writers and that kind of thing. And then I should mention, you know, very early on, or relatively early on, around 89, 90, We met two other Harvard students. One of them is James Bernard, who was actually a Harvard Law student,

and the other one was Ed Young, who was an undergraduate, but he was a year older than us. And Ed had experience working in the magazine industry. He had taken a year off and worked for the New Republic, which is like a political sort of magazine. And James was a Harvard law student who was actually in Harvard law at the same time as Barack Obama. And James was more on the editorial side.

So he was, you know, a San Francisco kind of black activist type person who had a lot of political views. And he was into the music too. But, you know, that was kind of my area of expertise. And James kind of took on the social political side of the magazine very early. And we kind of like teamed up. So now we had four of them. us. So now instead of two of us, there's four of us, and we're still basically doing everything ourselves throughout junior and senior year of college. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care

which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Cliffer. show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's

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On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wode. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot.

I don't know what that means, but I just said. just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through and I know it's a place they come look for up and coming talent. He said if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there.

Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects.

From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, for wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

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What was the first glossy non-newsletter issue? Was LL that first issue? I believe there was a picture of LL with all the girls, right? Surrounded by girls? I believe so. Yeah, it's like from a video shoot, there's a picture of LL. It's kind of a shitty, blurry picture. But yeah, yeah, that was, I think, our first color cover.

I believe that was our first full-color glossy, like magazine, basically. Yeah, I think you're right about that. At what point did you realize this was lightning in a bottle for you? You know, I think throughout our college, the second two years of college for us, which would have been, you know, 89, 90, was when I began, it began to be clear that we were, we had something that was legitimately like, you know, a product that people would love. And now, I should say, like, you know, for me, my influence, there was two very famous newsstands in Harvard. Square, really, really famous, like huge newsstands. I sold like every magazine from the whole world. And I would go there every week and I would read New Music Express and ME,

Melody Maker, two British magazines. I would look at Spin. I would look at Rolling Stone and I would look at the Village Voice. So those are like my five anchors. All of them to varying degrees, not Rolling Stone, but Spin with John Leland, was dabbling and hip-hop. The Village Voice was kind of the main. voice of hip-hop journalism. You had Nelson George, who started with Billboard, obviously. You had

Harry Allen. You had, who am I forgetting? There's so many great writers from that era. Greg Tate. Greg Tate. Yes, exactly. So those, these guys, you know, were my, who came before me. You know, they were my inspiration. But really, it was Rolling Stone that I was looking at, not because I love what they were covering. Although, like I said, I did love rock music too, but it was more so because they were the authority. They were the best put together publication. Everyone loves, everyone knows who's on the cover of Rolling Stone. So I would study Rolling Stone more so from a structural point of view to try to like

pick up whatever ideas I could. I would read the other ones more for a content point of view to try to get references and records and NME in particular was great because Tim Westwood, who later became a good friend of mine, would have a chart every week that was so far ahead. of America, it was crazy. Like he would get records, put them on a chart, and he would list 10 records that no one in New York or Philly or Boston had ever even heard yet. So he was so far ahead of the curve.

So that was a great influence on kind of all those things were influences for me. But then once we started, you know, putting some of those things into practice with some of these early issues of the source, we'd get a little bit better. We'd add more pages. We'd add more color. there was one very important issue where we put we put Malcolm X on the cover right in the midst of

you know when that when he was like you know a major figure in hip hop culture you know through public enemy and all the other artists talking about him so we were doing things like that to try to you know we wanted to get attention but we also felt that that was reflecting what was happening

in the in the culture so the Ice Cube issue 10 issue of the source is where I believe the myth of the source, the legend of the source, the idea of the source, and the source as we know it, all five of those variations. No, I think that's when it came alive. So you have to know that at the rate where you're giving the album's ratings, that that was going to spark something.

in the industry. How are you guys, like for that summer issue, all right, for those that don't know, I think issue 10 was Ice Cube on the cover. Um, this is like late spring of 1990. And they're pretty much going to review

every album that will come out in the summer of 1990. Yes. And the opinions, again, before the source, you just got blurbs and mentioned. You really didn't get much on. like quality. So it's not like if

Rydon magazine is talking about Michael Jackson's off the wall record, they're going to offer anything really critical to how important this is. It'll just be like, hey, as a new I'm single, don't stop the evening and rock with you. No, no, no, no, he's going doing tour with his brothers. Like, you just basically got like bullet point facts. You never got opinions. And this is the first time that we're seeing opinions. First of all, we learned what five mics were.

And that's the issue where I believe, and I'm going off memory, this is how a devoted I was, I know that edutainment by BDP got five. I know that America's most wanted ice cube got five. Deservedly so. Yes. I know that Eric B and Rock Kim's,

let the rhythm hit him, got five. And edutate, I said edutainment, right? Yes. Edutainment, America's, oh, tribe. People's instinctive travels in the past rhythm. It's weird enough because even with those

four records, I could see Raq Kim and BDP like, okay, okay, they've released another classic record. I see. I didn't know much about tribe and I was happy because I was like anyone under that De La Sol umbrella, I'm happy to see that there's more zaniness coming from that corner of the world. And of course, I instantly knew that the cube thing was classic because, you know, that's, that was like, I had it. However, the more. most shocking review of that whole issue where you guys, I think went through maybe 20 records, I don't know. You guys gave fear of a black planet a very simple three and a half stars, which by that

point, every critic was just gaga over anything public at me did. and I never thought I see the day where someone were offered, well, wait a minute, let's reconsider that and gave like actual, you know, I'm very much influenced until maybe last 10 years. I was very much influenced by what a reputable critic would say about an album. When I saw that, I was like, yo, they're trying to make a statement here. Like, it's not burning a bridge. Like, three and a half is not bad, but it wasn't, it wasn't the high praise that America's Most Wanted got or that sort of thing. And like, but you guys were just fearless.

Which do you think was a better album in retrospect? I mean, fear of a Black Planet or America's Most Wanted? Oh, dog, come on. Stop playing. The first three songs on America. Here's the funny thing. Here's the funny thing. So now that I know soup to nuts on how that.

album got made. Yes. I do know that the true all-star lineup of the Bond Squad, meaning both Shockley's Sadler. Sadler and Chuck. Yeah. So it's almost like I really consider America's most wanted the first three songs. Even though that entire album is mind-blowing, for me, it's almost like it's, I consider

the first three songs almost its own world. And then when you get to once upon on the projects to the rest, I consider that like another album. But I could see that. I could see that. You're absolute. I mean, you're right. I think had we not received Terodrome and Fight the Power previously, then we could see it as, yes, just as equal to nation of millions. But you guys kind of taught me that like retrospect soundtrack songs making appearances on an album long after.

the fact that it doesn't count. But, I mean, it wasn't snark whatsoever, but that rating let me know how serious you guys were about music journalism. Did you guys realize at that point that you are about to enter a very, very slow game of chicken with the industry in terms of like, now there's expectations of what my mic should be. there's to be, you know, like, set a standard. Set a standard that we never had before. Right.

Okay, so I, first of all, thanks for compliments. I understand and agree with what you're saying in that we were the first publication, really to be critical of rap, but not in a, but in a meaningful way. And coming from a place where we, we loved rap, you know, we wanted to, it was really, it wasn't really that complicated. it was once we came up with the idea for the ratings, and I don't remember exactly what issue that was. That could have been the first issue where that happened.

I don't recall. I think the LL issue was the first issue with, before it was mics. It was like records or broken. It was like an exploding record, yeah, and then it became mics. Yeah, and around that time, I also met another early source staffer named Reginald C. Dennis.

He was a Harlem-based hip-hop head who showed up in a three-piece suit, when he came to his first interview. I was wearing like a t-shirt and jeans and a baseball hat and like, you know, in walks like this guy wearing a suit. And we hit it off and because, you know, we bonded over rap music and we hit it off. And Reggie became kind of our first music editor. And that most of the ratings happened under his like tenure. I mean, I was the editor-in-chief. and James Bernard was like an important managing editor.

Also, I should mention Chris Wilder, my lifelong friend. Another Philadelphia guy. He's the guy that kind of really brought me. He's the guy that brought me to Rubber Park. He was a guy that introduced me to hip hop culture in a real way. He was part of our staff as well. Another editor there. And during that time, that was when, you know, okay, so we moved 1990.

It's a great turning point because that was when we basically graduated from college. We moved the business in New York City. I remember literally listening to America's Most Wanted on the drive from Boston to New York. That was like the newest album at that moment. Right. And we moved into 594 Broadway, which was right at Broadway in Houston in New York City. And without even realizing we were in the perfect, perfect place for the magazine. I mean, the reason we chose that building was because Bill Stephanie and Hank Shockley were actually

friends of ours. I had met Bill Stephanie at some point along the way, and they had sole records, which was kind of post-public enemy. Sounds of urban listeners. Correct. They were always good for an acronym. That's correct, yes. And Bill, as you know, was one of the greatest guys of all time. And so he brought us in, and he's like, hey, you know, his office was in the same building. So he said, hey, you know, there's room in this building. I know the... Where's the location? 594 Broadway. Broadway and Houston. The same place where October 94 happened?

All of it happened. Yes. All of it happened at 594 Broadway. Yep. So basically, yes. So that was 1990. So we moved the business there. In the beginning, we had one room, and it was about nine, ten people.

And we had like literal, it was like something out of a cartoon. It was like there was like one room with like six phones and nine people. And like the cords would be crossed in the middle of the room. room and it was nowhere to hide. It was like you were just, everyone was hearing everything and it was just kind of like a chaos. And then after a few months of that, we upgraded to like a little bit of a bigger space with like several rooms. And then at some point we divided it into like business and editorial. I was going to say one of your one of your star players, burning of this show, Dreamhampton, has recently created possibly one of the most,

mind-blowing blongest documentaries I've seen as of late entitled It Was All a Dream where I mean essentially her years as an NYU student she basically just always kept a camera handy no matter where she was

and she has all of these magic moments and there's a moment where she is in the office of what I assume the story mind squad or whoever you know, the source Starrington and literally like just to peep in that world for, you know, it's all of

14, 15 seconds, but I always wondered, you know, what that environment was like. I had the same reaction. I saw Dream was kind enough to show me a screening of the film and yeah, it was, I had never seen that footage. That was my first time seeing that footage of, it was like, I think it was around

92, 93, and she's in the office with a camera. I remember that she was around with a camera, but I had never seen the footage until very recently. But it is a great film. I definitely highly recommend that people watch it. Once word gets around, how do you guys know who is reputable

in terms of their writing skills or their knowledge of the music? So some people already had a name because they had written for other places. And that would be, you know, the names I mentioned, like Nelson George, Harry Allen. Then there were people that came up organically because either they were friends of a friend or they literally just showed up at our office one day. I don't recall Bones Malone.

Bones Malone is an example of someone who showed up. But he had already had some bylines in, I think, in Spin or possibly other places. He had a very distinctive writing style. Bones wrote, you know, with his own language, basically. if you remember. Yeah, I do. Dream, I don't recall how Dream showed up, but she did show up at some point. I don't remember how she entered our world, but there she was, this brilliant woman,

and we needed women voices, to be honest. We were pretty much a very male-heavy operation, and I knew in my heart that we needed more women, and so I immediately assigned her, her first writing for us, which was to review HWA H-W-A, Hose with Attitude. I remember. Yeah, and so dream. One and a half mics. She gave her like one mic or something, right?

One and a half mic is right. Yes, exactly, exactly. But that was necessary. That was a necessary step because we had to put it in, we put it in perspective and dream, know who could be a better person than dream to do that, you know? We were lucky that she came along because she, you know, one-of-a-kind voice. And then along the way, I, you know, know, that's talking about those days, I need to mention Maddie C, who is, you know, was my

very close friend prior to even the very earliest days of the source. Matt actually coincidentally knew both me and Dave Mays just by chance. And then when the source was starting, he, in a lot of ways, I mean, as I think back on it, represented really the core of the Mind Squad taste in music. Maddie C was the essence of like our taste in music because him and I were very often aligned in our taste, but not always. But Maddie C was ahead so far ahead of the curve in understanding hip hop and having good taste. What are the sides of the tug-of-war rope in terms of like who's more esoteric? Who's more three-fion rising and who's more life is too short? And how do you know how to be objectionable?

You know, that's a great question. I mean, one of the earliest challenges we had was dealing with regionalism. We referred to it earlier when you had your experience. You know, there were so many examples. The only. I was going to say the two short reviews are probably a good example of albums that are now deemed classic now. Yes.

We made a trash. Yeah. Through our lens. Yeah. So how does that work? Well, we were always accused of being New York centric because, quite frankly, we were. I mean, you know, I was from Philly, but, you know, we were East Coast-centric people in terms of our taste in music. But very early on, if you look at when we were still the voice of the

rap music industry, we actually were running columns from Houston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta. David D had his thing in San Francisco. Yeah, we were Seattle. I mean, we were always, we were one of the first media entities to recognize that there was hip-hop in other parts of the United States besides New York and L.A. And another one that was doing it was YOM TV Raps. So even way after I had left, YOM TV Raps, and now I'm doing the source full time,

we were kind of the only national hip-hop media, you know, platforms that existed. But there was an ongoing tension that existed between eastern west coast, different tastes, you know, too short is a great example. Here's another example. who I love from the first second. I mean, the first easy E record, you know, everything Dre did.

I was like the biggest Dr. Dre fan ever. But in a weird way, we were playing a lot of that on a radio show. We were playing, you know, all the Dr. Dre stuff. I went back to Philly, I remember, in 89. Stratocompton came out in 88. So sometime late 88, early 89, I think it was actually Christmas break of late 88. of late 88, early 89, I was back in Philly and I walked into either with Sounds of Market or Funko Mart and Todd won, remember him?

I remember Todd one, yes. Yes, he was a very famous, or not famous, but you know, like a well-known Philly DJ and record guy, basically. I walk in and I'm like, I was now, now the source had some momentum and now I had my own radio show, so I was kind of feeling myself a little bit. I walk in and I'm like, hey, man, I don't see NWA. anywhere where's NWA and he goes NWA man that shit is garbage I'm like what I'm like yo people love that he's like no one here no one in Philly likes that shit nobody likes that shit that shit is

straight garbage and I'm like okay damn I was shocked right meanwhile it took like a whole year later and every single car is playing straight out of Compton you know but it was like the the bubble was so strong still around New York and LA and Philly that like it took a whole year extra for like that to get penetrated by something as great as the NWA album, you know? Yeah, the ads in Billboard. I used to religiously re-billboard

from like 86 to maybe 93, but whenever the, any ruthless ad would be in Billboard magazine, I would just dismiss it because I was like, yo, they got eight ball jackets and Jerry curls. They look like my cousin's in L.A. This has to be whack, you know. I'm thinking that I don't want to get caught up in the Toddy Tee versus Dougie Fresh.

Yes. Right, that sort of thing. And it wasn't until Tariq, Tarek's number one rule was like he rejected no hip hop. He was never biased against anything. So the fact that hammers rhyming over the Apache break and turn this mother out, Tarek was like, I assure you this is like public enemy level production. and like you'll love this. Just give it a chance.

And finally, during lunch break, he played the first three songs that's straight out of Compton. I was just like, what the hell is this? Like, literally in lunchroom. So it was word of mouth for a lot of us. It took a long time for Philly and New York. So we had to be ahead of the curve on this.

So kind of to answer your question, we were, we had, you know, the natural taste of the people in, and I also want to mention Reef, Rob Tullo, was another important figure in the source. Shout out to reef, yes. Yauterif, Chimo Doe, rest in peace. You've an incredible photographer. We can talk about him as well.

Took so many iconic hip-hop photos, including Tupac and Biggie and Nas and all these incredible legends that we all, the pictures that we all know to be the representative pictures of these artists as Chimo do. So we were, you know, we just organically kind of attracted writers, photographers, and artists and producers and DJs and executives and, you know,

even, even Reggie O'Say came into the office and rest in peace. He was also an early writer for us. He was a very, you know, headstrong, like, you know, a smart guy who had a lot to say. Che O'Coker, who's gone on to become, you know, successful screenwriter in Hollywood. A number of people like that have gone through us. I'm working with you right now. Shout out to Che. Nice, nice. So yeah, so anyway, there's, you know, we, as far as like, to your question about, like, inside the magazine, who liked sort of De Laa versus Too Short or stuff like that.

I mean, it's hard to say exactly. I mean, I think Maddie and myself and Rief kind of took on the more. New York centric stuff. And then Reggie and James kind of took on the more down south and West Coast stuff. That was sort of the general breakdown. But like our ground zero for Maddie and myself would be like the brand newbie an album 1990. You know, like... Let's talk about it.

Yeah. That was our ground zero. Yeah. That review. Yes, I heard a brand newbian. I believe I saw a feel so good video on Yom TV raps maybe once or twice, but the review, it's almost to the point where, and I also said this about I'llmatic,

I wondered if the review of the album winds up being like its own headliner. Like, is the reception of the sources perspective of an, album bigger than the album itself because when I saw those five mics for all for one and I've read the first line it said brand new being is New York and the way that was positioned I accepted it because I was like oh okay so this album is a paradigm shift this album is now how the next generation of New Yorkers are going to look talk and they broke down the language and the slang and the skins and all that stuff and And, you know, I didn't know too much about, you know, the 5% nation and none of that, you know what I mean?

Like, and because I was told it was a classic, I just accepted it that it's a class. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's how impressionable a 17-year-old receiving the information. Did you guys know at the time that that was going to be, I think, of all the reviews, the brand-new being. getting five mics was the thing where suddenly I started to hear like of the whole regionalism thing and they don't respect our music and that sort of thing or not they don't respect our music but like suddenly it matters what you guys think as opposed to because I don't know if the lure of Brand Nubian would have kicked off if it were just a all right they got a four

you know what I mean like yeah I'm brand newbie and I mean if you were around New York City in that year. I mean, that album leaked, you know, that was an example of bootlegging, you know, in those days when cassettes were bootlegged. So how far in advance was it? We had that cassette so far.

I mean, the only one I think rivals it is Nas, and we can tell that story also. But basically, Brand Nubian was red hot in New York. I remember literally when Dante walked into a new music seminar party, and they performed Oh, actually either they, yeah, I think they performed wake up or one of their, one of their early singles.

And I'm like, what is this? Because it had that funky groove on it. It had that parliament, I think, sample. But anyway, it was that record was so big in New York City during that 1990 period. Like every nightclub, you know, if you go to like, especially I would hang out a lot in the downtown New York club scene, listening to people like Stretch Armstrong and many others. And those songs, I mean, you would hear like three, four album cuts a night, you know, in one session from Brand Newbie.

And that was so influential. So long before its release, you guys had it for at least five to six months ahead of time. Something like that. Something like that. Yes. I remember Maddie was the keeper of that cassette. And the only other, you know, not the only, but we got, we frequently got records, you know, because back then for those pre-internet days,

we would get a cassette and, you know, we would, because we had such a long lead time, I mean, we might be working. If it's, you know, if it's August now, the issue we're working on might not come out until like October 1st or something. You know, it was like so far ahead that we had to be always thinking in that frame.

So we have to be thinking like, whoever we put on the cover has to be who's hot like two to three months from now, basically. because it took because the reason was we had to finish all the work, send the issue off to get printed, it took a couple of weeks to get printed, then it had to get distributed to all the distributors. It was like a two-month lead time before it actually ended up on the newsstand at least. So because of that, we had always that challenge, and the publicists knew that so they would give us the cassettes, but that's when things would leak.

So there was a big period, you know, in the early 90s when a lot of big albums, namely Brennan Nubian and Iomatic in particular got leaked real crazy. I didn't leak either of them, but I did hear both of them very early on. Should I tell the Elmatic story? Tell the O'Matic story, yeah. All right, y'all, that was part one of Jonathan Schechter's story. Of course, we know you wanted the story about how Nas got his five mics in the source. Come back next week for that story, and he'll also give you some stories about how the source played a huge,

role in a biggie's career shortly after. And also, you know, he's going to talk about how he left the publication that he birthed. And he reveals what he's been up to now. Still celebrating great music. This whole interview was damn near four hours.

And, you know, so we try to preserve all of it. So come back next week, look into your feed, and enjoy part two of our conversation with Jonathan Schechter of the Source magazine. All right. Questlove Supreme is a production of High Heart.

Radio. For more podcasts from IHart Radio, visit the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft.

And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. from hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider,

you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist.

They take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, I got you. What's up, I got you. My next guest, it's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best. advice ever. He goes, just give it a shot. But if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there.

Yeah, it would not be. Right. It wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to thanks dad on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Daniel Alarcon, and this is my friend. This is much more famous than I am. I wouldn't go that far, but I'm John Green, co-host of the podcast The Away End, with my old friend Daniel. On our podcast, The Away End, we'll share with you the magic of international football, all leading up to the 2026 World Cup. Together, we'll find out why, of all the unimportant things, football, soccer, is the most important. Listen to The Away End with Daniel Alarcon and John Green on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.