The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Kathleen Hanna

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

New York Times best-selling author, musician, and activist Kathleen Hanna discusses her new memoir, Rebel Girl: My Life as a Feminist Punk. In a special one-on-one with Questlove, Kathleen also details her passion for records, complicated views on fame and success, and the power of No. In their first extended chat, Questlove also shares the profound impact Hanna had on The Roots by way of the late Richard Nichols and explains how she helped influence Black Lily. This conversation is spirited as two like-minded souls connect.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

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From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more.

Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On the Ceno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations. about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail, talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to bench,

featuring powerful conversation with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcohol. And without this probe, I'm going to die. Listen to the Cino show on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme.

I'm here with this Questlove. You know, ever since that Willow episode, I got to say, I'm kind of liking this more intimate 101 thing. Nothing against the Supreme fan, but, you know, these are kind of fun for me. And this one especially holds dear. I will basically say that this conversation is probably 30 years overdue. I'm almost certain that our guest today doesn't even know the silent impact she's had on my entire organization. She'll find out right now, right? Surprises of bail, right?

Surprises of bail. Our guest is legendary. Of course, name it, Bikini Kill, Latigua, the Julie ruling, pioneer the Riot Girl Movement, magazine publisher, poet, fan of cheesy 70s, variety shows like myself spouse of my very first online Scrabble rival New York Times bestselling author of the memoir Rebel Girl my life as a feminist punk you know if you are a fan of the show or you're familiar with my history she probably doesn't know it but she was the seed that helped start the Black Lily movement that uh I guess I'm famous for or associated with from my side of the fence.

What can I say? This is long overdue. Kathleen and Hannah, thank you for talking to me. I know your husband's going to be upset because I know he feels like I'm having everyone but him on the show. He will get his turn. He will get his turn. How are you today?

I'm good. I'm so thrilled to be talking to you. It does feel like a thousand years overdue. Like I feel like you're like Superman and we're always. you know, you're like Clark Kenting out on me. Like I'm like, where he was just here. Like I feel like we've had that for like the past 30 years. I, uh, lived a life where I used, uh, my work and my occupation to avoid life.

Oh, really? Is that how come you've like done like 3,000 things and you're like the total like, you know, Renaissance man goal for every other artist? I mean, you know, on paper it's nice. But, um, you know, I've gone through kind of a life transformation in the last three years where I now know the power of no and vacation and, you know, make time with my girlfriend and think date night, you know, game night, like things that have nothing to do with working, which, you know, is nothing but distractions. So let me just let you know. And, you know, I work on a talk show.

And oftentimes I know that, especially when guests write books or memoirs, I'm almost certain that they are under the impression that the person interviewing them has not read the entire piece or the entire book. Usually like a producer or an assistant will do such a thing. This is absolutely not the case. I probably finished your book in a record like six days and was rather. surprised at how parallel our journey from here to there sort of ran. There were a lot of times in the book in which I was like, oh, wow. At times a person thinks that they go through something alone. Oh, yeah. And I was one of those former people pleasers that sort of made career decisions based on the perception of other people or their approval, you know. What happens

if we signed this label. Oh God, what happens if I do this commercial? What happens if I'm seen with this particular? You know, I actually like the work of blah, blah, blah, who's massively popular. But I can't be seen with them in public because people think I'm a, you know. Yeah. Every aspect of your story really, really impressed me,

which is weird because, I mean, I want to talk about it so much, but I also don't want to alert it for your audience that hasn't read it yet. or, you know, make this, the paraphrased version of it. So I'll figure out ways to ask you specific questions. But I, you know, I want to start off this episode by letting our audience know that this book's a must read, an absolute must read. I'll start by asking you, what is the process? Now, I'm a person that's written nine books. But even in writing those nine books, I realize.

It's like just so nuts. Well, no, no, no. I'm going to tell you. Well, the thing is, is that I journal kind of to keep my sanity. Yeah, no, me too. I journal every day. Right. And then now that there's social media, like oftentimes I'll overspill in a post.

And if I do it too much, then yeah, my publisher is going to call and be like, hey, dog, can you not give the milk away for free? Like, all that you did in the last repost could have been in the book. And usually that's the point where they're telling me, like, channel that energy into your your contract fulfillment instead of giving it away on Instagram. And one of the last things that my ex told me was, you know, I can't wait for the day in which you write your real first book.

And I was like, well, I got nine already. Like, what else can I write about? Ouch. And she said, come on now. She's like writing about records and break beats and, you know, art, that's your distraction. You know, when are you going to write the real book? So I'll ask you.

When am I going to write the real book? No, no, no. Oh, my God. No, but I want to know. If there's another real book behind that real book, it's going to be really scary. It's like a horror movie. I'll just make a horror movie. So there's two books I've read this year that were memoirs, musical memoirs.

One of them nicely danced around specifics to sort of protect relationships or maintain them. Yours was very blatant and very honest on how you felt about specific people. What is the first step in realizing that you're going to overspill and share with us your life? And how does that affect the people that you write about? Yeah, I never thought about it. I just sat down and wrote. I really just sat down and wrote and wrote and wrote. It was really for me. I didn't think about an audience at all. Like when I first started writing, which was like, you know, years ago. And I knew it was a book.

Like I wrote the introduction like 10 years ago and then ended up, I changed it all, of course. But I was just sort of writing it a little bit and I didn't have a publisher or whatever. And then finally I was like, I just need to do this to get to the next stage in my life. You know how like there's different like things that you've made that you're known by? Like, you know, people walk up to you on the street and they're like, you know, this is the thing. And it's annoying because you're like, I don't want to talk about that. Actually, my real love is directing or my real love is, you know what I mean? It's like you get known as, you know, if you're in a commercial and someone's like,

you were in that VW commercial for the rest of your life. And it's like I was sort of like really trapped in this like riot girl thing and like the like, you wrote the Smel 16th spirit line or, you know, either like weird mini scandals I was involved in. And I was like, you know, I just kind of want to like not talk about that anymore. And part of that is me getting over stuff that I never dealt with. And so I really kind of wrote it just to get it all out on the page. And I wasn't, I knew that I got to edit it later. You know, I'm an adult.

I've done like a lot of projects. So like I know I'm not writing this and everybody's going to see it. And having the same confidence that I have with it that I have with my journal where it's like, no one's going to read this so I can write whatever I want. And I had fun with it. I was like, I would think of a title. like Benjamin Franklin's glasses. And then, you know, you have like catchphrases in your life that you used to talk to your friends with where like for me, like the Smells Like Teen Spirit story, which is like I wrote Kurt Smells Like Teen Spirit on his wall.

And then he used that as song. Like people have asked me about that a lot. Right. And so it's, I started calling it the, you know, smells like Benjamin Franklin's glasses. And I would be like, it's like I found Benjamin Franklin's glasses in the trash. And everybody's like, ooh, there's the girl who found Benjamin Franklin's, you know, glasses in the trash. And I was like, I'm actually like a feminist artist who's been working for 35 years. And like I have a lot of projects I'd love to talk to you about.

But they're like, but tell me about Benjamin Franklin's glasses. Right, right, right, right. So I didn't specifically actually write that story like to, you know, get people off my back or whatever. But I did write everything, like everything. And then I edited it later. And that's when I thought about it. And I changed. I did change names.

I changed almost everybody's names unless they were in a positive light. And there were people, there's a particular person who, who is really messed up in the book and basically commits crime and against me. And I called that person and said, I'm going to tell this story and you need to get a therapist and be prepared. I changed your name, but some of our friends are going to know it's you. So I want you to prepare yourself. I don't want anybody to kill themselves. You know what I mean? What was his reaction?

You know, I wish I wouldn't have called. That's all I can say. I mean, he was like, he's like, you know, it's your story and you can tell it. I can't stop you, but it was like a big pity party of things in his life that have gone wrong and that, you know, he had a whole new story for why the bad incident happened. I was like, I can't rewrite it. I already wrote it. So the story answer is I didn't think about it.

I got my butt in the chair and I worked. And then I would have these long periods of time where it has worked and worked and worked and then I would have periods of time where I had a nervous breakdown and went to crisis. counseling like for three days a week and then I would get back to work. That's what I was going to ask you because the thing is is that unlike my movement, you know, the, the Neo Soul movement, both of our movements, I would say start with the the quote, the idea of. I'm certain there was an actual Seattle movement or Northwest movement, but I, you know, pretty much even I knew that we were responding to

the idea of what we thought the Seattle movement was. Things move on and things subside and things are in your rearview mirror. How did it feel to have to unpack that period in your life? Because like literally chapter after chapter, it's one thing to keep a band together. But it's a whole other thing where you also have to keep yourself together and protect your sanity, but also like organize a movement.

and I'll say the main difference between you and I. Luckily, because of the development of the internet, for me at least 98, 99, you know, I thought it was all unique, like the only person in music who allows his fan base to curse him out or criticize him or say whatever the fuck they want to. But that's contained in like this world on the internet. Whereas because you're eight years before. before, you know, you're dealing with newsletters and actual people coming.

You've essentially a pre-social media pioneer, although it wasn't invented yet, because you came out so damn early. But all the things that happened, like the idea of people spewing out their opinions mid-show, you know, all the toxic energy you had to have, you're juggling like four or five things at once. And you're learning lessons. You're learning lessons about feminism. You're learning lessons about yourself. You're learning lessons about your health, like all these things. But to really put yourself in that position to go back and revisit, how taxing was that on you today to revisit those periods?

The way I would say when I would get home from work is I would be like, I just grated my face with a cheese grater for eight hours. That's what it felt like. I really felt I was like, my. face was blank. I was dead behind the eyes. Like, I was going in and out of being present. Like, it was awful, awful. But so is crisis counseling. I mean, and it was basically like I was, I saved myself a lot of therapy because I actually sat there and wrote down stuff. I'd never even admit it to myself. And a lot of it didn't. There's 300 extra pages. It didn't end up in a book because

It originally was like riot and they were like 600 pages long. I still want the director's cut. You might get it in a different form. But yeah, a lot of the stories I cut out were because they were more visual. Like it was like the you had to be there kind of stories where it's like, you know, we're on acid and we're like running towards the sky in the park. It looks like he's juggling.

We're like, it's a clown. And then we get close to him and we're like, oh shit, he has not. It's a ninja. It's a ninja. Turn around. Like, you know what I mean? Like it doesn't really work in a book. Yeah, it was horrible.

That's all I can say. It was absolutely awful because it was like excavating all of the stuff that, you know, I had also suppressed and pushed down to keep going to the next project. And that was part of the reason why I worked so much. You know what I mean? And I didn't turn out like a gazillion albums, but I was constantly doing projects even when I went through a long period where I was pretty sick. I was still like I wrote a pilot for a TV show.

And, you know, I could tell you 20 other things that I did while I was still ill. because I just had, even if it was from bed, if I had one good day, I had to use it. And part of that was just like I grew up as a kid and I felt like I was really a zombie. Like I had to turn myself off to live in my household. And so when I kind of came to when I moved out, when I was 17, I was like living with vengeance. Like I was like, I have to pack as much stuff into this one life as possible. And also all the people, you know, that I've lost along the way to like, drugs, suicide, AIDS, you know, it's hard not to feel like you're living for them.

Like, you know, every day you have a part of their character with you that comes out and you're like, I want to let that part of this person shine today, you know, like, but then that can become this weird, like, toxicly positive bullshit that then you have to contend with that. So I just try to be in the present as much as humanly possible. And writing the book, the whole point of it was to get me into the present, was to be like, I'm going to grapple with this 35 years or even, you know, my whole life, I'm going to grapple with that. And then I'm going to be like, I did that and now here I am. And sure, I still like have bad memories of stuff or like whatever. But the thing that was really kind of miraculous was I just realized how much I lead with the negative.

You know what I mean? Like a lot. It was so easy. It wasn't easy. But it was like I went straight for the juggler. Like I was like, I went to all the worst moments in my life really quick. And part of it was because I needed to. I really needed to do that. But then I was like, whoa, no one's going to read this. This is going to make people just throw up. Like I got to put some joy in here. And then I just started being like, they started popping out like, you know, Jack in the box style. Like just like joy, joy, joy.

And I was like, oh yeah, that guy in Minneapolis who like said, I'll record your band in my garage. I love what you're doing. And I, and that made me feel like accepted in the punk scene. You know what I mean? And it was just a tiny gesture from this. one person that probably they didn't even, I don't think that guy even read the book or knows or remembers. Right.

Guy to Mac said, I'll record you and, you know, record us. And my first touring band, David Knievel. And it meant the world to me, you know, remembering the first time that I heard my vocal sounding good in headphones. Like literally, as I was writing it, I was remembering it for the first time. And I was sitting in that garage, listening to my voice with reverb on it. and going, oh my God, this is what I want to do forever. Right.

What a gift that I had to go through. I had to kind of like, you know, dig myself out with a shovel. I kept seeing in my head when I was writing like a kind of a newly dug grave, like the soil and stuff. And I felt like my hand was just sticking out. And I had to reach and pull my hand and get me out of the grave. And once I dug myself out, I was like, oh, look at all this awesome stuff that happened. That maybe you didn't fully appreciate in the moment.

and I'm able to appreciate it now. And in a lot of cases, I did. I had a great time. Like, I've had an awesome life. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter.

And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at It podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the action.

AIDS. To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so

that. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him. Hi, dad.

And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen. She says, I have some cookies and milk. This is his badass convict. Right. Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at mom. Yeah. On the senior show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption.

On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this true, I'm going to die. Open your free I-Heart radio app. Search the Cito Show. And listen now. I feel like it was a little bit unbelievable until I really start making money.

It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast, Eating While Broke, is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer, Zoe Spencer, and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum-Pierre, as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. If I'm outside with my parents and they see all these people come up to me for pictures, it's like, what? Today now, obviously, it's like 100%. They believe everything.

But at first it was just like, you got to go get a real job. There's an economic component to community striving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. And what I mean by fell is they don't have money to pay for food. They cannot feed their kids. They do not have homes. Communities don't work unless there's money. flowing through them.

Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What I do want to know is, and I know that your story is your story alone. But when you decide to do the journeyman of going in the punk scene or the indie rock scene, eschewing what is perceived as, you know, major labels and big business and all that stuff, Is this typical of what one can expect in terms of do it yourself? It's 24 hours a day. You might have a flat tire the next day.

You don't know whose couch you're going to sleep on next week. You might have bubble gum for dinner. Like, is that still the modus operandi now in 2024? Or did you pioneer it so well that now life is easier for those who are sort of in the space? I think it's changed in the, I don't really know because I'm not 20 right now, so I've no idea. But we do have really amazing opening bands that have been playing for us on tour. And they'll sleep on people's couches. I mean, usually, you know, they'll sleep in like a holiday and express or La Quinta, but or like somebody.

Which would have been five star to us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because they had, they were like a name brand. So you could trust the towels. But no, it's like they, they'll sleep on to them. I think it's different. And it's not every single band, but like this one amazing band, sweeping promises we were touring with. And it's like, I think it's also, you know, post-COVID,

whatever, people are really excited to see each other. And so right now at this moment, it's a different touring experience where it's like, oh, I'm so excited. I get to go to Kansas because I have these two people that I'm ready to on the internet that are going to be there and we're going to hook up and hang out afterwards. I don't think, and I also think young bands are, they're still struggling, but they're struggling in different ways. I think they struggle with them. of stuff they have to extra unpaid labor of content production on the web that they have to do. Like, I'm lucky that I don't have to. I mean, I have to do it because I'm a business and stuff.

But like, I'm just not that interested in that. And like I try to figure out, I've actually learned from the younger generation, like the way younger generation where they're like, I, you can't call me after business hours. You can't. You know what I'm like? At first of course, I was like, yeah, I was like, exactly. I was like, how dare you have boundaries? I have 18 jobs on different index cards and I look up every day and which one would be funest to work on today.

And I do that. But then I do like the, you know, crappy business financial part at the end of the day. And then I was like, no, that's awesome. I should have weekends free. It's so hard for me to be like, I'm going to have weekends free. You know, but now that the book's done, I have to protect my weekends. And I have to say five o'clock. That's it.

Sometimes it ends up being seven o'clock. But I try to say five o'clock. that's it. And then I try to leave it and I have a firm role and it's hard. It's really hard. But like I wake up, I write my journal. I drink my first coffee and I sit in my really fancy Eames chair that I bought myself that is the most comfortable chair I've ever seen in my life with my feet up. And my dog gets on my lap. My dog who smells like a salmon factory gets on my lap and I pet her and I pet her and pet her and drink my coffee and I don't look at the computer and I don't look at the phone until I've written in my journal and I've pet my dog and she is asleep. So I have to start my day like that with and

right now we're in this apartment where I have a view of the mountains. So I sit in my team's chair and look at the mountains. Sometimes do I look at Instagram in the morning? Sure. But like I just actually took Instagram off my phone again. Congratulations. You know, I got to be in real life. You know, I miss pre-internet. I'm nostalgic for it. I'm also really into all the cool things that you can do on it.

You know, I love that I can, you know, keep up with what you're doing on the internet. You know, like, I don't live in the same city as you. We don't hang out, but I can like look and be like, oh, what pants is he, you know, listening to you? And, like, I can like look them up and, you know, it's cool. But it's also like, you can get really. addicted to you. I mean, duh, this is the most important conversation. You have to cut this part out because nobody wants to hear people talking about the internet. I'm so bored of it. No, I mean, we're two humans having a normal. Some of my best episodes are just having a conversation.

I was going to ask, 23-year-old you, like if someone were to come up, all right, let's go to 25, 26. I don't remember what I was doing then. Well, I mean, just let's say 92, 93, 94, around that. In McKinney go. Yeah. If someone, a Jacob Marley figure from the future, were to tell you, hey, I'm from 2024, let me show you a 10-minute sizzle reel of what life is going to be like in October, like way past the year 2000.

Like in 93-94, 1999 was the future. You know what I mean? Yeah. I couldn't even imagine like 2005, let alone 2025. What would your reaction be if someone shows you in 1993 where we are right now 30 years later? It's the whole world, not just my life. I think if I was showing my life in particular, I would be so happy. I would be like, oh my God, first of all, I'm alive.

Second of all, is the irony that your life is the best has ever been in the most turbulent times whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm finally getting like my sort of like, I have a feeling you at some point have made a pie chart of what you do during the day or what you do during the month

to be like how much of my time is business stuff that I hate and how much of my time is creative stuff I love and how much of my time is like friendship time, relationship time, dog time, like, whatever your thing is. I've hired a chief of staff. There's so much shame in the title when they're like, oh, your assistant. I'm like, no. I literally hired a chief of staff because I have seven managers. I mean, I have a business partner now.

You know, I have, my bands have never had a manager. We had a manager for like 15 minutes in late December. You were the manager. I mean, you did everything. Well, we slid it up. I don't do all the work, but my band split up all of the work.

And it's like, you know, we have a to do list and we each rip it off into three parts. Like, I don't, I haven't, I didn't have a manager until a year and a half ago. And it's like more of a business partner.

Yeah. Who's amazing and I absolutely adore her. And I couldn't do, I couldn't be doing this stuff I'm doing it right now. And I've finished the book and done the book tour without her at all. But like, it took me to age 55 to set that up. Like that's how behind the times I am.

52. We talked about boundaries. And I do feel pathetic that like, yes, even for date night, for movie night, for hanging with my friend's night, like, everyone has to ask, hey, Mir, keep coming to come by the student. Let me ask my mommy first, which is basically asking my person, show me the pie chart. where can we fit this in? Yeah.

But I'm also dead serious about boundaries and the amount of noes I've given this year is the most nose I've ever given in my life. I did a year of no around 92. When Bikini Kill first started getting all of this attention, and I was like, I had this extreme guilt because I was like, you know, from this kind of tight-knit feminist community and the whole idea is, you know, anti-harchy and also in the punk scene, anti-hyarchy. And I worked behind the scenes like long before I was ever in a band.

Like I didn't see myself. I wanted to be a singer, but I didn't really think it was possible that I'd be in a band. Because I just always dated people in bands or was best friends with people in bands. But it just didn't seem possible. And so I was always like setting up shows and doing stuff at, you know, the rape relief shelter and doing, you know, art shows and, you know, running out random warehouses and putting on doing projects. And then when I started doing them, it just rolled and rolled and rolled and rolled and kept going. And then all of a sudden, I was the front person. And I was the lead who was in the spotlight.

And that was very uncomfortable for me. I was going to ask, were your nose based on the fear of getting the attention and being the, obviously everyone was looking for a Ronald McDonald or a figurehead? to peg like leader of the movement or yeah and that comes with imposter syndrome and all that stuff and and all that stuff and if you like you it's like I've had friends who got fame really quick and didn't have you know the counseling and stuff didn't have a team of therapists with them and ended up you know leaving this earth away way way too soon and so I had all these cautionary tales that was like don't go down that road because you're going to die like I literally was like if you get famous you die like that's what I thought or like you know people are

always like sneaking around the corner trying to get you. And I was like, I can't live that life and be in community. It also took me out of community. It made me a star. So then I started to feel unwelcome in my community because they're like, oh, you think you're so great. You're so conceited. You know, I had some girl walk up to me in a grocery store.

And I was like on my period carrying anything ice milk, like Neapolitan ice milk. You know how beautiful Neapolitan ice milk was? I'm like hearing it. And I had a bag of Jojo's. Do you remember those from the Pacific Northwest? They're like, really big french fries and they're covered in like shaking bake material and you could get them at like safeway so i had my jojos my tampons my nepalton ice cream and i'm walking in safeway and it's

about 92 like the time period we're talking about and some punk girl walks up to me and she's like you're ruining the punk scene you think you're so great blah blah blah and i'm like having cramps and i'm carrying like a pretty embarrassing assortment of items and i'm just like really right now you know and so is that kind of stuff that made me like you know everyone's going to throw water on your shine so throw water on your shine first you know like someone's going to punch you in the face so punch yourself in the face first like I don't know what the hell I was thinking so I like I pulled back and I was like I'm just going to do community stuff I was like putting on you know benefits for harm reduction and like doing all this behind the scene stuff I was answering all my mail as I always did to these kids who are writing and they're like I'm going to kill myself because I just came out to my family and I was for or, you know, a lot of people who had rape and a messy violence, you know, stuff going on in their lives and, like, I just put my nose down and did that work, you know? And that's why I said no. And so I said no for the wrong reasons. But I also ended up in this really weird predicament where because Bikini Hill got so famous, so quick for like five minutes and we got put in like all of

these like feminist academics wanted to like make classes about us and like put us in their books and stuff, I ended up being an unpaid assistant for like five different feminist professors without my knowledge. They were like from big Ivy League schools and they call me and they'd be like, oh, you know, I'm really trying to put together this, you know, syllabus or blah, blah, blah. And I'm like handing them. You're doing the research. I was doing all this research for them and stuff thinking I'm a part of feminist community. And I, and then one day I was like, wait, they're getting paid. And they also have an assistant or a TA who's getting paid. Why? I make music. Right. I write, but I'm not doing that.

I'm doing their job. And so I just, the next day, I woke up and I, anybody asked me for anything, any favor. No, no, no. And if they weren't jerks about it and they didn't keep, I found out everybody in my life who was a total toxic nightmare by saying no to everybody. Yeah. And then everyone who was a toxic nightmare was like, why? Why not? Why not?

What? You don't care about me? You don't care about community. And I was like, yeah, you're now, I'm not only not doing you favor, but you're out of my life forever. And I'm never returning your calls. And then I found all the people who were cool about it a couple months later, if I was like, you know, actually that sounded like fun. I'm going to call that person up and see if they still want to do something together.

And so. So you would circle back. I didn't do it for the right reasons at all. I took a year off. I could have written a great record in that year. But I was really too damage. And this was right after also like, you know, a lot of. of people in my life had just passed and and I was just really messed up.

Can I ask, okay, so you said something in your book. So right now I'm working on two projects and which and let me start off by saying that. Wait, that's it. You're only working on two projects. What's wrong with you? No, this is this two of the 13. You're not a really good community member. You better.

This is two of the 11. I'm trying to whittle down to, you know. a simple one. So there's two projects I'm doing right now. They both require, the shortest way to put it is that both of them require for me to be the Dr. Melfy to their Tony Soprano, kind of the insane amount of trauma dumping I have to take on.

Getting their stories, it got to the point where I had to get a second therapist. when you got to the part of the book when you're holding these meetings, because you're not only producing and writing, but you're also teen rape counselor. You're holding these feminist meetings to the point where even when you discover that there's trouble in paradise in terms of white feminism, and you're putting on so many caps at the same time.

What was the breaking point for you? And I'm only asking this because one of the subjects... find your breaking point? No, no, no. Well, the thing is, is that my version of no had less to do with, like, I understand that there's some knows where, no, we're too cool for school, we can't do that. But I also know that three years ago, I had to discover boundaries. I thought being self-sacrificing was like, oh, that a mirror, he always works so hard.

I got tired of being that person, you know, the self-sacrificing person, never thinking, of myself. Now, in one of these particular projects, the subject is similar to our story in terms of leading a movement and sacrificing and sacrificing and sacrificing. And what winds up happening is at the root of this particular person's story sort of lies and undelt with trauma with his parents and this person kind of has a medical issue with their own life. And I'm always a believer that behind every medical issue is an emotional component that's not thought out or or dealt with. Could you talk about and you know, you're very open about the relationship with your father in the beginning. Or lack thereof. Yeah, I've talked about 20 years. Yeah.

And obviously I felt that your need to save people is you seeing yourself in, you know, you want to save the version of you that wasn't, didn't have a protector, didn't have someone to advocate for them. Yes. But at what point did you realize? Now, the fact that you allowed love in your life via Adam was amazing because it took me five decades to get to that place. but at what point did self-care become truly important to you and that you had to put everything else aside as far as like juggling 12 plates at the same time, you know, leading a movement, flyers, meetings, teachers, unpaid teachers assistant.

Yeah. What was that breaking point like for you? I can tell you the exact moment. Okay. Like it's it's so funny because, while you're talking, I'm like, oh, yeah, I know the exact moment. I was doing some work for a political organization around Fremumia Abu Jamal. And I was working to help put on a concert.

And I got very, very sick. And this was when I was still living in Olympia and I was in Bikini Kill, so it was still 90s. And I had a temperature that was like over 103. And I really, I ended up being hospitalized. And I had a like a, you know, just a mattress on the floor. Like, I don't know what it was that like I thought to be like, I thought people who had mattress frames were, I was like, why? You know, like, I look back on how many times I just like threw a mattress on the floor and

like that was it, you know, I mean, I was really, I was that busy that I was like, you know, the guy who just like any t-shirt that's laying on the floor, I just like throw it on. That's a bid. Right. Yeah. No, I mean, there were times. in my band where one of us would show up with lipstick on and be like, how did you have time to put that on? Because we were so busy. It was like, you know, you would sleep and then wake up and then start

working in. But I was laying on a mattress in my apartment and I had to crawl the bathroom because I was that sick. And my phone kept ringing, kept ringing, kept ringing, kept ringing. And I had an answering machine at the time with a mini tape. And this woman from the political organization was like, you need to call me back. We need to get the done. We need to get the stun. And I had already picked up and said, I have a hundred three time and I'm really, really sick. And she kept calling and calling. And she was like, she screamed. I picked it up and I was like, dude, I'm like really sick. Like I'm crawling to the bathroom. And she's like, then crawl to the fucking facts. I had a fax machine. Crawl to the fucking fax machine and fax eddie vetter and Zach de LaRacha.

I was like, and you know what? I did it. I crawled to the fax machine. And not only did I fax them, I drew cute drawings on the facts. You know what I mean? Like when you're doing something like that, like as you're crawling and then you're getting out the Sharpie

and you're drawing the cute dog picture so that Zach de la Rocha notices your facts, I'm like, this is, you know, and then my mom ended up driving from Portland to come get me and taking me to the hospital. and I was really, really sick and I was hospitalized. And it was a bad situation. And the other time it happened was when I've had a long-term illness, which I since recovered

from. And that was like, I was so driving at a thousand miles per hour with a break on in my life that my body was like gave out. Gave out, right. My body was like my adrenals were shot. Everything was shot. I was having like seizures. Like it was like really bad.

And when you're like kind of staring at death because it was at that point where it was like, we didn't know what I had and I was sick. Yes, I actually do have a verifiable by test illness. I don't think it would have gotten as out of control as it did if I hadn't suppressed all of this trauma. Because my trauma body, you know, and I do have a theory and people will probably get mad about it or whatever, but about auto because it's autoimmune illness. It's like I don't think people make up autoimmune illnesses. I don't think they're fake.

I don't think they're in your head. But for me, my autoimmune illness was definitely made way worse by the fact that I completely ignored my body. But I lived in a state of hyper arousal from the time that I was a kid. Like I would look at how my dad came into the house and be like what's going to happen tonight. And adjust yourself to his mood and your. And the same thing, you know, when, when as a feminist musician who would walk into a venue and have to deal with all these men and not have our own sound person, not have a tour manager, we had no one. We would have one roadie, if that. So I would have to kind of, you know, suck the D of all of these dudes emotionally or psychologically to get them to turn my sound up. You know, and it was con. And then I'd have an audience full of men who are like yelling, you man hating bitch, you know, shut the fuck up. Like whatever. And I'm like, I'm just, I would just.

just want to be in a band. I just want to be in a band. I really love music. I just want to play music. And so dealing with that also made me walk into situations and be hyper aroused. Every time I would play a show, I'm looking for who has a glass or a bottle in their hand that they're going to throw at me or a chain or even as a flight teakro wine glass. You know, I had a wine glass stirring at me and I was like, I could see it coming. But I'm really, I hope somebody taped it. Because do you know that really famous moment in that bad brains video where HR goes like that? And it was like that. Yeah, like the matrix.

Yes, it was like that. I did that. And I'm like, did anybody get that on camera? Because I really want to like put it next to HR. Impressed with you. But yeah, I was like in this total state of hyperarousal. And I really do feel like in a way, because what my body does is if I get any kind of infection or sick, it goes to crazy out of control fever.

Right. And it's almost like my body's in a state of hyper arousal. So it's like my body sees some cells in my body making. a weird face and start my body starts freaking out and you're you're in a constant state of fight or flight yeah and i mean like i had to do nine months of ib therapy this is actually real illness and it's like i i have quantifiable proof that i have it so it's it's not all in my head but there's a mind-body connection who knew you know i've been living above my head for so long you know to avoid the trauma that is like residual like left over my body and something i have to say to you

my friend because while you were talking, I thought of this. I don't mean to psychoanalyze you, but I'm going to do it fucking anyway because anybody who says that I'm going to psychoanalyze you is about to psychoanalyze you. I think it's really interesting. Then we started talking, you talked about your girlfriend saying, when are you going to write the real book and be vulnerable about your own life? And then you've gotten involved with these two projects, especially this one you're talking about, where someone has suppressed something that they need to deal with and

their trauma dumping on you. And I know that they're probably a super amazing person. And it's not, you're not saying that with anger or anything. It's like they're actually telling their lives. Oh, no. This is the people I love. Yeah. Yeah.

But like, I think that that's really interesting and that it's something I relate to because, you know, I wasn't getting help for the abuse that I'd suffered in my life. And it kind of went from my house to then, you know, being raped. in high school and, you know, date rape. I mean, I don't know who wasn't date raped at some point in their lives, but, you know, it's not, it's not a unique story, but it's like all of these different things happen. And then I have this job where I'm constantly sexually harassed and there's no HR.

There's no HR in punk rock. Who am I going to call? You know what I mean? Like, HR puff and stuff? Like, who's going to help me? No one's going to help me. And so it's like, I'm in a different work environment every day that's abusive. And I can't just be like, hey, can you move Bill's desk?

from me because he keeps saying if I don't tell him if I'm married or single, he won't give me the report, which is what was happening to me where I had monitor guys wouldn't plug in my monitor unless I told them what my status was in terms of a man. Are you single? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, why does that what does I have to do with my monitor situation? So I started bringing my own monitor and plugging it in myself.

And these are extra things that people have to do who get treated poorly. And you know, the other thing, though, I have to look like. back and be like because of the particular time period and place I grew up in with the 90s kind of punk purist aesthetic, which I now am very critical of because I think a lot of it is very classist and it's very like upper white middle class like holier than now. And there's a lot of cosplay poor. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of cosplay and there's definitely like, you know, the trust of farans

at my school. Like there's just a lot of trustafarians. Yeah. That's an amazing, oh, God. Yeah. I've never heard, okay. But you know who I'm talking about the white guy with dreadlocks on the subway, that Bedford stop, who's singing Marley songs.

There's a sketch on SNL called Ross Trent that Andy Sandberg did about Rastafari. And, yeah, I know many of those cats. I know many of those cats. Yes. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more,

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your podcast. So something happened that you're probably not even aware of. It's 95. So, and it's so weird at how our stories are intertwined. You know, we signed to DGC Geffen. Geffen, yeah. And 93. And this was like kind of the height and the madness of billions and billions and billions

of dollars raked in from, you know, post-guns and roses residual, post-arrowsmith residual monies. And of course, never mind was just, you know, that was the cherry on top. And what winds up happening is so Geffen doesn't have a, a black department, a black music division. And in the craziest kind of 11th hour, one second left in the game, Hail Mary Throw. I know this story. Right. They offer this deal. They gave you an insane amount of money.

Yeah, they offered this deal, but the most attractive part of this deal was the security part of it. And the security part was if we made one album, we would have to make the second and third album. If we made the fourth album, we'd have to make the fourth and the fifth album. Like we couldn't get dropped. Most rap groups have to prove out the gate. You must have a hit single or else that's it.

And so that's what attracted us. Between the period of December and April of 94, you know, we make this record. And, you know, as we're talking to, to the guys at Geffen, your Eddie Rosenblatt, your Wendy Gold scenes, like the people that were our staff members,

they became obvious that, you know, Guns and Roses is not making a follow-up record. So-called Chinese democracy is going to come any month now. Arrowsmith leaves to go back to Sony. And then April comes. And when Kirk leaves us, that's a panic signal to my manager,

who says, I think the honeymoon's over, and we have to make something happen. So just something straight out of a movie. We, like, think of the chase scene and reservoir dogs. We basically kind of stole our budget money out of the bank. So we wind up moving in a panic move because we sense that their excitement of starting a black music department is going to drown out because three of their, marquee artists are no longer in existence. And so we moved to London.

And we fish out of water. We live in, we get a flat in London. And we work out the gym. And it takes about a good year and a half before Geffen, kind of in a move that's sort of like they lost their keys. Like, wait, what? Something's, you know, like literally it's like a year and a half later before they realize like where the fuck of the roots?

They're in London. Right. And literally right before panic hits, we're like, ah, look at all the press we got. Like, we did this all on our own. And they were like, oh, you guys did all this? It's like, yeah, we got our own agent and we got our own tour bus and we got our own apartment. And we just, and that's all. We were like the black hip hop version of the commitments. I don't know if you remember that movie.

Yeah. Literally any pub. Wait, so were you working out the material for the album live before you reported it? Or were you doing it simultaneously? I mean, because we started off busking on the streets, we kind of knew the songs that were going to wind up on the album. But we made the album. Literally, the day that Kirk Loder reported the news of Kirk's death, my manager was like, yo, we got three days. We're going to, in about three to five days, we made three videos, shot.

the album cover, knocked out nine songs like finish the record. We didn't want to get dropped from the label because like we bet the farm on this moment. And they were impressed enough and sure enough as he predicted they dropped the other 18 acts, but they were like,

well, the roots already completed their record, so keep them. So whew. Wow. So, you know, we work out in Europe for an entire year. And they're like, okay, guys, you're eventually going to have to come

back home and it's like 95. And we're going to do our first dates in the States. Start off in L.A., go to San Francisco, work our way to Portland, and fourth stop in Seattle and then Vancouver. And after our Seattle show, like, you know, in every band's history or their folklore,

there's that one, like, crazy person that they meet. like their version of large Marge from Pee Wee Herman like someone just shifting my manager gets on the bus the day that we leave for Vancouver

is like yo man I'm at the most craziest interesting and he goes on and on and on and on about he saw someone at an after you know like we would do a show and then you know we we had critical buzz

so people are there to see us and he gets invited to an after party where the other Seattle luminaries are. He talks to you for about two hours and you tell him the whole story of what, and this is 95, so everything that you've organized and whatever. And he was like, whatever you told him, he's like, yo, there needs to be a feminist movement. And I was like, huh? We're trying to get on MTV. Like, why do we have to start a movement?

He's like, no, man. It's like, you got to come out, think outside the box. Like, and I was like, what, we're a rap group. Like, there's no women in our, like, I could not fathom. Like, okay, so we're going to be a feminist band now. Like, how does that work in hip hop? Like, even I was drinking the Kool-Aid of what kind of what hip-hop was supposed to be and all that stuff. And, you know, I'm thinking of self-preservation.

And he never lost. That legal pad, like he wrote like a maniac everything you said. And sure enough, starting in 97, the second time I had an interaction with you, the two commonalities of it, the thing that impressed him the most was that you had a plan, you executed the plan. and at both events, you famously cussed out a figurehead rival of yours that we won't mention her name. Oh, uh-oh.

You know, at both events, the first night he met you. And then the second time I met you was our last day with touring with the Beastie Boys. And, uh, it's this outdoor. Yes. It wasn't bumper shoot. It wasn't the gorge. It was basically the beach.

Beastie Boys, bad brains, the roots, far side. Yeah, that was the night when I, I, uh, I, I, I didn't cuss out, but I basically told them what Ricky Powell was doing behind their backs. Yo, when, when I got to that part, he disappeared from their lives. And I saw you independent of and Rich was like, do you remember what? You remember from Seattle? We used to talk on the phone. Rich and I used to talk on the phone.

We were like phone friends. I don't remember the, I don't remember the, I don't remember the, legal pad or the first time we met or anything. I just remember that we were, because he would hang up and literally just write. And I didn't know if he liked me. Like, I thought he might like me, but it was like around the time when I was meeting Adam. I know he didn't like me. But I was kind of like, does he like me? Like, because. And then I was like, oh, no, this is just a friendship. I also sorry for your loss. But he was, he was great. And we had such amazing phone conversations. And it just like, you gave us a blueprint. And so.

I were just telling him record stores in Portland. I was like, I hope they went to that one record store. Oh, well, you know, I'm a constant record shopper, so I'm almost certain that I went to everywhere in Portland. Like Portland's mind was my all-time favorite place on Earth pre-pandemic. It was. But yeah, I'll say that talking us into being accessible, being community-based, having jam sessions. At first it was the Roots jam session. And sure enough, you know, whenever.

the ladies in our circle wanted to get on the mic, then it was like they would complain that, you know, you guys are hogging up everything and we don't have our, like, where's our agency? And then we morphed it into what we now know is Black Lily, which of course was kind of the impetus of the spark that finally by our fourth album had caught on and started a movement.

But, you know, I never ever got to like thank you for kind of planning that's moving. I mean, I wasn't aware. I had no idea. I had no idea. Yeah, I was like, I didn't even think you knew who I was. I was like, can I get on Quest podcast? I was like, I don't, I feel like, I mean, we run into each other. Like, he came to my movie thing. Like, I think he's aware of me, but you just know so many people that I was like,

we have friends in common. I was like, maybe if you say I'm married to Ad Rock. I was like, but yeah, the fact that you're aware. Even when I saw you add together, like the various times I run into you guys, I didn't want to freak you out because I was like, yo, dog, she doesn't even know. And sometimes I don't know these things. Like people will tell me things like you don't even realize that the time you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, backed in 98. Like now that's the part of the long life that I'm getting where people from this college that apparently I did something for that, you know, you gave me.

There was one person that said, I guess I had for a senior paper. I talked to him for three hours and that wound up not only getting him an A, but that got him like, hired at Lucasfilm, like stuff that you're not, you're not aware of the residual effect. So I wanted to save this platform. No, I was highly aware of who you were and follows you throughout the years. Like literally you're the first, and I don't mean character in a reductive way. But, you know, when we're arriving in Seattle after living in Europe and a John Tarolta boy in a plastic bubble way, like I didn't meet a Wu-Tang member until 1999.

Like we were just, we were very much hip-hop, but we were just separated from what was happening between 93 and 99 because we were living in Europe and on other tours that weren't hip-hop related. And so finally using your blueprint in terms of organizing a movement was how we finally like broke through to the other side. So. Oh, that's so cool. You can add that feather to your cap.

Well, I hope it didn't, it didn't cause the problems that it did for me because I definitely took on too much, you know, and I've never listened to critics. Like, I know you're somebody who like follows what critics say and like, you know, album sales. And like, I feel really lucky that that was just never. I came at music making as an art practice like from my other art form. So I had this real thing of. like not protecting my creativity, but I feel very lucky. Like one of the first questions

you asked was like, you know, how did you write this book? And like, what about the people in it? And like, how are people, were you worried how people are going to react? And it's like, I didn't think about it. And like, I tried. There's definitely been one album that I made that I was thinking about that. And it was not good. And almost everything else, I've just been like, I'm just making the thing I want to make. Like, I'm either something that I want to hear or there's something I want to read that isn't being written. And you're right. A lot of it ended up being, I was writing to me when I was 15, as if I was the adult who was saying the things that I needed to hear. Or I was saying the things that I needed to hear that would validate that I wasn't insane.

You know what I mean? That like actually the world's crazy and you're kind of okay. But it's really funny when your music catches up with your life. You know, and then you're actually writing about what's happening now and you're not still writing about, you know, past stuff that you don't even know you're writing about until for me, you know, a band didn't play. chose both my downs for like 20 years. And then we got back together. And all of a sudden I was like, I am the person that I wrote about wanting to be in this song right now.

And I've realized what all these songs were actually about and that they were about totally different things that they were about. You know, like before I ever came out of being, having been raped by a friend of mine while I was in Bikini Kill. And everybody thought I was like, the strong, tough feminist. And you know, I'm always like, you know, yapping and blah, blah, blah. And you're cussing people. out, like whatever. But I also was actually assaulted by a close friend of mine during that time,

like right before I went on a really big tour. And the day before I went on tour and what did I do? I played shows. And I'm glad I did because I got to throw my whole body and my whole life story into every single night. And so I think that kept me alive, honestly. It wasn't always me using it as distraction because everything else is a distraction. in my life. But when I'm on stage, that's the main time that I'm a real person and that I am who I most really

honestly am and I'm fully present. And I'll bank like every other hour of my life just for that hour and a half or two hour time period. Because to me, live performance is the main thing that I crave as a person. So yeah,

I was going through that kind of stuff and like nobody knew about it. And I feel like I couldn't tell people because I didn't want the riot girl people to come after him because that just wasn't the story that I wanted. Like retribution for me holds no interest and it's just taking me off of the path of what I want to make. And I wasn't ready to deal with it. And so I just shut it off from my brain and I moved along. And I was like, you know what? My mission is more important than this person. But eventually it came back to bite me in the ass and it came to the fore and I had to deal with it and I had to process it. And, you know, through doing that, that was when I finally fell in love with Adam.

That's when I got my cat, David's Sue recipes. That's when I finally started, I bought a couch. Like, I hadn't ever had a couch. Not a mattress. You know what I mean? Like, I had not only a mattress, but I had a couch too. Yeah. You're adulting.

I have two questions to ask. Okay. So one, you know, thank you for your honesty and sharing those stories in your book about your assault. Knowing what you know now and especially what's been happening in the last five years, is a part of you wishing that, well, first of all, if you go back in time, number one is hope that you would never have to experience that ever. Oh, yeah, for sure. but in terms of the one particular story that you shared about, you know, having a conversation

and vulnerability and you guys just sitting lying in the bed next to each other and talking. And that was the person that you trusted. And suddenly it just went 180 the other way. And, you know, as I'm reading this, I'm like, oh, God, okay, is the rage going to happen here? Is it, is it, and I understand letting him go and I understand the entire ordeal of reliving that trauma through the legal system and all that stuff was just whatever. I didn't even think, I mean, I forgot it the second I left. Right. The way that you, you, you painted it, I was like, oh, okay.

It was almost like a struggle. Like, oh, no big deal. Okay. Well, goodbye. See you later. Are you fine with the process of how you put that in your past? Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm mad that he hasn't had to pay for my therapy.

Because it keeps coming up and I'm like, Jesus Christ, when will this person go away? You know what I mean? It's not the person. It's like the abuse of trust. And, you know, I was also at a place in my life where like, I needed to find a good man. I needed to find a man in my life who was a feminist and who read books about it and cared about it to prove to me. I'd been so disappointed by so many men in my life who I'd gotten close to. Like I had for a lot of my life a lot of guy friends and I hung out with guys and I was like the kind of person who was like, let's go, you know, break bottles down by the railroad tracks.

One of the guys. Yeah, well, let's go. Yeah, let's go break into the, you know, the old prison and, you know, smoke pot like stuff like that. And so I had these guy friends and like the second I wouldn't have a boyfriend, they'd be like, okay, let's have sex. And I'd be like, I don't like you like that. And then it'd be like, you know, either stalker behavior or they're really mad, their ego is bruised, this whole thing. And I was like, God, this is so awful. And so I finally thought I met this guy who was, you know, he's so smart and we're like, you know, reading Angela Davis books together and like talking about it.

And I'm like, this guy's so cool. And then he ends up sexually assaulting me. And I was like, the fact that I could ever trust anybody again in my life, but, you know, is kind of like. Like, I feel like I'm a walking miracle. So. Well, part two of my question is, how did you allow yourself the space to open your heart to Adam? And kind of part three of that question is behind every punk persona is there a cheeseball? Because the fact that because the fact that you...

Are you calling me corny right now? Got. Well, the thing was, you gave yourself away with Donnie and Marie. I fell into you backwards, right? Your persona. So you started with Donnie Marie? No, no, no, no. I fell into you backwards.

And so then once I started reading the book, your Us Weekly Stars are Just Like Us Moment. I was like, oh, she lived for Donnie Marie on Friday nights like I did. Like me and my sister did on Friday nights. That's crazy. So, no, but the fact that your go-to thought was, okay, I need a mattress. and I need peanut butter and jelly.

And like I was like, yeah, behind every punk persona is a cheese ball and you brought his poster and Mike. I couldn't make out. So the story is, I can tell it from the book, just so you know, is that I was in love with Adam. I brought Corvitz from Beastie Boys.

And it was pre-Internet so I couldn't just look up a picture of him to drill over Because we were apart because he lived in L.A. and New York, and I lived in Olympia, Washington. So I went to the Sam Goody at the mall. I couldn't go to the cool record store. I shopped at Sam Goodies. Well, your friend Philly, did they have Waxy Maxis?

No. Because the first single I ever bought was pop music. By M. At Waxy Maxi. And I always love that name. I was like, if I ever started a. record store. I'm going to name at Waxy Maxis. Anyways, I went to like Sam Goody at the mall because I was like, nobody will recognize me. It was like the punk like in, you know, nose and glasses

sneaking into Sam Judy instead of the independent store. The disguise on. Yeah. And they had, nobody will see me at the mall. Because like, it's a small town. Like seriously, anytime I was like, you know, had a relationship with somebody, everybody knew because we all lived in the same apartment building. So it was like, oh, I saw so and so leaving her apartment. You know what I mean? Like that is how everybody knew everything. Like you couldn't, you had to like go into a coffee shop five minutes after somebody so they didn't know you were together.

Like it was like we lived in paparazzi land even though we were like, you know, just kids in like this kind of town run by punks. It was pretty amazing to live in a town that had it downtown, but that's a whole other thing. So I go drive to the mall. I get my poster of the Beastie Boys. And I'm so psyched that I get to look at the most handsome man.

And this is this is when you were saying. how did you manage to open up your heart after these bad experiences to this person? I like pretty boys. I just like pretty boys. I like pretty girls too. But I like pretty boys. And he is a very pretty boy. And also he loves records and he loves music.

And he's very different from me in and compliments me. Like he's, I'm more like, you know, like I'm like the feminist art, you know, person or like whatever. And he's much more reserved. but he is funny as hell. He is so funny. And that is just the sexiest. I mean, he's good looking and he's funny and he likes good records.

Because I have had one night's dance with people and I've looked at their record collection or their CD collection. You're that person. You judge people? I'm sorry, but if I find a Dave Matthews CD, I slept with this girl and I woke up in the morning and she had like Dave Matthews and like,

I was like... I'm not shading Dave Matthews. I am. I was like, no. I was just like, no. And I, and I, I ghosted her. I was like, I can't. You're that person.

But I bought the poster. I bought the poster and I brought it home to my apartment and I made out with it. I made out with it. I kissed the poster all over and I covered Mike and Yowk's faces. That was weird. I was like, your bandmates are watching me make out with you. And then he found it when he came to my apartment. And he's like, what's, how come the mouth is all mess.

Right. I was like, there's been water on it. Yeah, it's very easy. That's the most romantic story I've ever heard. No, here's the thing, though. I used to be, used to be, well, not steel land. I was a member of Columbia House. Oh, yeah.

I was also a lazy member of Columbia House. And the way that Columbia House works, of course, is for those that are listening to our show that were born before 1993. You didn't go to school in a pioneer buggy wagon. Right. So Columbia House is, was the original Spotify where they would entice you in magazines and whatnot for a penny. You get 15 free albums.

And then you're instantly signing up for a subscription service throughout the year. And the deal is, is that they will send you two. to eight records a month based on your taste and the algorithm. And if you like the records that you're getting, then they just charge you and keep on charging you. If you don't like it, you can return it. But they're kind of banking on you for getting to return it. And so as a result,

which the lazy part comes into play, because I checked off I like all types of music, I will say that a big part of my U-eyebrow raising, judging me for my record collection stems from all the records I didn't return from Columbia House, and I would just force myself to listen. I think between like 12, wait a minute, I don't believe that for a minute. All right now, five records between 12 and 17

that you wouldn't want any of your friends to know that you listen. listen to. They're really earn any. Tell the truth. Tell the truth. It's all it's all before that because I mean by the time if you watch Donnie Marie I know but I but I'm proud of my Olivia Newton John thing so I had that was in corny totally hot. Wait totally hot I was going to say totally hot totally hot. Zanidu or like which which was totally hot totally hot we all felt for totally hot. I literally carried it to camp without the vinyl in it so the vinyl didn't get hurt. I just carried the, and I slept

with it under my pillow. First fist fight I got into with Mark rap in the third grade. The way that I could get under his skin was, okay, this is like in the video game era where you could write out

something longer than three initials if you get the high score. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we all, I always are an ass. Right, but there was one particular game that let you have like 20 characters and the surefire way to get under Mark's skin was to write Olivia sucks. I mean, I would spell it out and he's like, if you press enter, I swear a mere and run my, that was daily.

But yeah, for Christmas, I remember, yeah, she had like a commercial campaign with the black leather jacket and all that shit. It was like Sandy from Greece continued. Right, exactly, in the same outfit. So, yeah. It was so good. I had a fanzine called Destination Olivia. And then we had a party around it to celebrate its lunch, and it was a Joan Jett

versus Olivia Newton John party. And you had to hear it or you made the fanzine. I made the fanzine called Destination Olivia. And then a bunch of girls in my town were like, we're going to throw this party that is Joan Jett versus Olivia. And so everybody dressed as either Joan or Olivia. Yeah. So you're basically.

It was so, and a lot of you wore lingerie for no reason. You're the Anna Wintour of music fanzines because, you know, like the Beastie Boys taught me everything I know that I still utilize now in my career. Even with me creating an okay player and being on the internet, like everything that I implement now is from those two months of touring with those guys. especially with getting Grand Royal, probably like one of my prize possessions is that I have 10 copies of every Grand Royal ever published somewhere in my storage unit.

But for you, talk about the publisher in you, like you putting these fanzines together, you putting, and I don't mean high school, I'm talking about even in your career, how do you have the energy to even do that in addition to being an artist. I mean, you know, when you're in your 20s, it's not that big big deal.

Like, and when you live in a small town, there was nothing going on. Like, we were bored kids. And we were really lucky that at the time, heroin wasn't around. So, yeah, we drank 40s, but like, and I may have drank too many 40s a few many times. But, you know, it was like something to do.

So I was just like, you know, I was also, like, really stressed out a lot. about stuff. And, you know, when you first become a feminist or you first become conscious about just like marginalization, oppression and stuff like that, everywhere you look, talk for myself everywhere I looked. I was like, there it is. There it is. I was like, oh, my God, this movie is so messed up. Like, my mind was kind of exploding when I was in my 20s with like all the stuff I was learning about like, oh, wow, you know, this is how this group of people is being treated and this is like to keep these people down so that they're workers and they don't, you know. And I was

I was like, whoa, you know, kind of freaking out. And so fanzines were a real outlet for me to write poetically about that stuff and to be creative about it and to sort of like have it like go through the computer of my brain and then come out the other side as a way for me to talk about it. And also, you know, me and my sister were the first people in my family. Like my mom and dad didn't go to college. So like we got to go to college. And I was like so thrilled.

Like I felt like I was so lucky I got to be there. And I didn't want to, you know, waste. it. And so I had this real yearning to like the first time I read about Hook's book, I wanted to share it with my mom. You know, and it was like, I wanted to share it with other people or my family. And so writing these fanzines was also a way that I could share the books I was reading in college, that back then there was no internet. So it was a way to put book lists. It was a way to talk about the issues that were coming up in books I was reading with other people who maybe weren't going to college because the majority of the punk scene in Olympia weren't at Evergreen.

Like Evergreen, that was the college that was in my town that I went to. And that's why I moved there to Olympia, Washington, Evergreen State College. And but most of the punks didn't go to that college. They were just, like, lived in the town. You know, so it was like to be able to talk about feminism with everybody, not just people who were in college. And actually, people in my college, there was like one feminist class that I took. People think it was like this big feminist hotbed. But it was actually really frowned upon.

And when I tried to put feminist, I'd, ideas into my photography, it was like, shut the fuck up. So to be able to put that out into the world and have people respond to it was really important. And you know, when Kurt died, you guys were scrambling to, you know, get your record done and make sure your contract was shared up. And I was writing a fan team called April Fool's Day about quitting drinking. And I was interviewing my friend Mikey's bass player, Brian Sparhawk, who I actually just saw him. When we got the key, to the city in Olympia. Now you're the establishment.

A month ago. I know, I was like, I was like, does this mean I can get into the governor's inn, which is like the local hotel? I was like, can I just use this key? Right. But no, it was like I was interviewing, you know, my friend Mikey, also he was Kirk's friend and he was a heroin user. And I was trying to do everything I could to talk about addiction in the punk scene and to to raise awareness and to try to like make Kurt's death mean something you know because like I can't I

couldn't that's how I deal with things I'm like this has to mean something like this has to this horrible feeling I'm feeling how can I channel it into something that is not going to push me down a bad road and it's going to make me feel like I'm a part of something positive you know what I mean and like I didn't want his death to just be oh to member the 27 club like there were people in my community who were going further down the drug road because he had died and they were really depressed. And how could I be a part of just starting a conversation? And so I did that through a fancy, you know, that most people don't have because it's out of print. What I was going to ask, do you at least have the master copies of all of your?

It fails. It's like an archive at NYU and boast. So they're somewhere preserved? Yeah, they're right across the street from Washington Square Park in that library. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other. health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory.

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follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him. I said, hi, dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen. She says, I have some cookies and milk. This is a badass convict. Right.

Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk them all. Yeah. On the Seno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon, Danny Trail, talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to bench, featuring powerful conversations. with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic.

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Where do you currently reside now? Pasadena, California. Really? Yeah, my mom moved here because she liked that song, Little Old Lady from Pasadena. I see. I was like, why did you pick Pasadena? She's like, I was like that little old lady from Pasadena song. I was like, I'm an old lady now, so I'm a little old lady in Pasadena.

I live there for my mom's side of the family lived out there. So, wow. In Pasadena? Yeah, briefly. Wow. I don't know that. My mother's side of the family lived. Now, I want to ask Deweeb questions.

What shows are you currently binging? I'm getting something cheesy out of you if it's not your record collection. I mean, I binge tacks. I binged Girls Viva. You like Girls Viva? I think it's so funny. It's hilarious. Yeah.

But actually, I think it's called Stars. there's this other one that's about a girl group that happened before. And it's got like Brandy. Yeah, stars. But that was only two seasons of it. Yeah. It's so, but it's like prototype Girls Five Eva,

but it just didn't, it didn't go hard comedy. It meant it went more like so. It was sincere. Right. Yeah. It was, it's actually a really,

really, really funny show. But yeah, I mean, Brandy. Kids, you know, Rob. I could just... My favorite harmony stacker of the 90s, yes. Incredible. But yeah, it's like, it's like chock full of literal stars,

but it's also about like a 90s kind of like rap singing group that gets back together when they're like older and having relationships and stuff like that. So I just, I binge that, but it ended. That's the problem with binging things is that then you're like, oh, no, I'll never find out what happened because... Yeah, I'm that way with Detroiters. We just started watching that. Dude, before, I loved him,

and I'm happy for his Emmy success with his Netflix show now, but Detroiters. Detroiters. I call Jason Sadecas at least once a month to beg him to bring that show back. He's one of the producers of it. Okay, so this is a couple's question. What is your ideal bedroom temperature? I learned in the pandemic that a couple must be equally yoked in agreement how they want the bedroom temperature.

83. You're Africa hot? You and I are the same person? Yeah, 83. And Adam's fine with whatever, but my kid, because it runs on the same thing, our kid likes it to be freezing cold. He wants it to be 80 degrees. Yeah, I've probably some of the harshest aren't. arguments I've had in a relationship starts with the temperature.

Are you going through menopause? Maybe that's it. I think I am. Obviously I am. I think I am. Okay. Are you a text, cold call,

or FaceTime person? Text. Okay. Text and FaceTime. But I faceTime my mom. Like, only, only my mom and Adam.

Do you ambush FaceTime? I do Marco Polo. I do Marco Polo with my friends. really just out of nowhere like you know they're in the shower somewhere like inconvenient is that what is marco polo oh so marco polo is where you leave a video so like when it's convenient to me it's like face time but it's like when it's convenient to me so it's like me and my friend jim or my friend kathy like we leave and my friend dusty we leave like videos for each other on this thing called marco polo so it's like i'll just be doing something

and i'm backstage and i'm able to talk because i'm not out on vocal rest. And this is like my 10 minutes of time that I can talk. So I'll like, here's where I am and here's what's going on. I miss you. What's going on in Alaska? Like whatever. And then when they feel like it, they leave me one back. And then I get to check it and I will get these like new Marco Polos every day. And I can check it at my convenience. I just didn't add for Marco Polo. So I should get like a million dollars. I didn't know Marco Polo. I thought you meant Marco Polo as in you just ambush someone. I thought you meant you just ambush someone. I was like it was like it was like

At three in the morning. Yeah, yeah. No, but that's the cool thing is that you can just leave the video at three in the morning. If that's when you're feeling like doing it. Like, I can't call my mom at three in the morning. Oh. I just show up in her house because she lives five blocks away. I literally don't face on my mom anymore because I just walk over to her house.

Are you kidding? My mom will call me at any. She doesn't understand the word no or I'm working or I'm taping live right now. I'll call you after I'm done taping. Like she's sitting just out of frame. Oh, absolutely. Like you see her nostrils as she's like, she just got an iPhone. So yeah, that's that person.

Yeah, I talk to my mom's crown molding a lot on FaceTime. I'm like, mom, really, your crown molding looks really great. Yeah, that sounds about right. When's the last time you've been starstruck? God, I mean, I don't really, like all my friends are like nurses. teachers. So like, I don't really, we don't really run in celebrity circles so much. So no notable person that you met that you're like. Oh, yeah. Okay. So Leslie Gore, I met at a party at Eve Anselor's house. So Eve Ensler wrote vagina monologues. Yeah.

And her apartment when I went to it, and this is many years ago in New York was painted all red and all the furniture was red. I mean, it was like, it's like, it's a TV show that writes itself, right? Like I was like, no, this is so great. But it was like every like kind of feminist luminary was there. And like this, you know, celebrating this activist who had just gotten let out of jail after 40 years. And it was like this big thing. And like everybody was there. And I was back to back with this woman.

And then we turned around. And I looked at her and I just was like Leslie Gore. And I could barely get it out of my mouth. And then I just full on. a party. I met her at a party in a red apartment where everything was red, like we were inside a vagina. And then I looked at her and I was just, I was sobbing and I couldn't get a word out. And I was I was like, babe, babe, babe, babe. I love Leslie Gore. I love Leslie Gore since I was a child. Her voice is so amazing to me. It's got that like clear as a bell kind of quality to it. And I always was

like, there's something underneath the lyrics going on. There's something underneath the lyrics going on. And it turns out she was gay. I didn't know that. And yeah, and her and her girlfriend were at the party. And I was like, I knew it. But you know, her and her brother wrote out here on my own. For Fearing Kara? Yes.

And I was saying that I went on stage at a high school dance in seventh grade with this girl, Jeannie Staver and this other girl. And we took parts singing that. Like we kind of like made it to a thing. We made it into a treat. Who got the bridge? That's the hard part. Oh, I did.

Come on. I orchestrated the whole thing to get the bridge. But then I found out like I was like, you and your brother wrote that song because I interviewed her from Ms. Magazine. After I stopped crying, I was like, I want to, you know, do something with you. No, I didn't know she wrote that.

Yeah. Oh, damn. Okay. Yeah. And I was like, that's so weird because I always felt such a connection with that song and, you know, Coco, the character. I mean, fame was everything.

You know, know when I was young, like that movie in Greece. I was always like, when Beyonce first came on the scene, I was like, they have to do a hip-hop Greece remake with Beyonce because she's so, she'd be so good as Sandy, but it never happened. Well, they, no, they kind of almost did. They remade a hip-hop version of Carmen. Yeah. And, and.

But Greece, the movie with modern stars. I thought you were going to tell me that you were Greece two person, not a Greece one person. Okay. I do like that one song. I don't believe y'all. I don't believe you all for a second. I want a cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, rider. It's got one good song. It's terrible. Okay. I'm glad you're saying that. It's terrible. Greece two people will argue being the ground that they liked Greece two better than Greece one. Oh, that's a lie. That's a lie. That's just like they're just lying to, they're contrarians. They're contrary. That's the, I liked your first album better, or I like the demo better than, okay, that's what I thought you were getting to.

I'm always like that. Like, I'm like, somebody was like, oh, well, Liz Fair and, you know, exile and Guy Vaugh. And I was like, yeah, but when she was girly sounds and it was on a cassette, it was so much better. I called those people. I was like, I remember meeting Liz Fair at a show, at a Babes and Twiland show. And she told me she was writing a response to the Rolling Stones exile on Main Street, which is one of my favorite Stones albums.

And I was like so blown away because I was a huge stone. fan when I was younger. I guess that's my embarrassing thing. Like, right. I mean, it's not embarrassing. I was huge,

huge, huge into the stone to the point I was going to get like the lips tattooed once at a party and I was like so glad I didn't. And then when I kind of like started learning about feminism and I was like, oh, under my thumb, brown sugar,

ooh, you know what I mean? Like I was like, this is, there's a lot of sexism and racism going on in here. And I was like, this is not cool. And I literally took,

and I mean, now, of course, as a record, I don't want to tell you this. But I had like, you know, Japanese pressings and like I had a stack this big of all this and stuff. I went down to the record store and I set it on the desk and I just was like, have it. You gave him back?

I just, no, they were from all over the place. I just was like, I was like, I can't have this in my house. Like it was contraband. Like, what is wrong with me? Like, because you think that someone's going to go with the record collection and judge you? No, it was because like I couldn't physically have. in my house because it made me so disgusted that I loved it so much. And then I was like so disappointed. And then you realize. Okay. And I realized I was so sad and I was so upset. I couldn't look at

it because it made me nuts. And so I just like dropped it on. I lived above a record store. So I dropped it in the record store and just gave that to them as a present to sell and it was just like I don't even want any money for it. But like now I can see gray area. Yeah. I was like even the most righteous person, I think five percent of their record collection. Oh yeah. is allowed a problematic faith as long as it's not. There are some of that I just can't because I can't because it's like I physically feel ill, but it's like, you know, I mean, I love music too much that it's not all of a sudden going to make me do something horrible if I listen to it.

You know what I mean? Like you got to be it. But you're aware of it now. But, oh, I thought you see you threw that away. I was like, no, don't ever throw a stone. Oh, no. I would never throw vinyl away. God.

Okay. What is your. secret talent. I mean, I can put my whole fist in my mouth. Okay. That's a secret talent. Small hands. Or not. I'm going to ask you, and this is subjective, is the grass greener on the other side? Oh. Are you insatiable? You mean like that I want more, more, more, more, more, more all the time, yes. Well, I mean, my grass greener on the other side was, okay, so back in our Grateful Dead jam band 200 days on the year life to tell me

that we're going to Europe for another two months was like, I'd rather slip my wrist. And God, if you hear me, like, can I stay in one place and not have to tour ever again and make the same month? And then you get it. And now it's like

I would do anything. Oh, yeah. To go back on the road and, you know. I've only been home a month. Like, I just got off the road. So I came home and I was just like, I hate it here. Oh, so even doing what I perceived to be a victory lap for you? It wasn't a victory lap at all.

It felt better than it felt. I mean, I'm singing better. Well, that's a victory lap. I'm enjoying, yeah, I'm enjoying the songs. I can close my eyes and feel myself in the music and not have to look to see if somebody's throwing something at me. We have a sound person. We have a manager.

I mean, that's when you're talking about like going back and what could you, what would you tell yourself or if you saw the future, like, whatever. I would tell myself, like, get a sound person right away. Like, this needs to be a member of your, this is a member of your band. Like, oh, the engineer is important. That's how people receive you. You have to have a sound person. You can't go, I can't have a man who doesn't like my politics, literally controlling my voice.

Like, it's just, it's crazy making. You can't live that way as, as an artist, like, with the particular kind of, like, athletic singing that I do. And so, yeah, I would, I would say also, hey, you know, maybe you should get a manager. I wish I would have known about those jobs sooner and have more education. And I think that the internet was around, I would have known about that stuff. And maybe, you know, a lot of stress came in our band in Bikini Kill because we didn't have a manager. And so people go to the lead singer. And then I would bring stuff into the band and I would be like the bearer of bad tidings. You know what I mean? I'd be the one in practice who's like, hey, before everybody leaves, I have

these 10 questions. Right. And then I'm like, you know, because the manager, there's always a point where you're rolling your eyes at your manager. Like, God, if you ask me to do one more thing, it's not their fault. But at the same time, you're like, I don't want to do that interview. I don't want to, you know, like, I want to do another photo shoot where they don't have any clothes it fit me.

Like, you know, like, I'm just not in the mood. I don't want to be looked at, you know, whatever. But I do have that thing of like the first day after tour. I'm like so happy. I don't have sound check. Like I wake up and I'm like, I don't have a sound check. today. Line check.

Oh, my God. So happy. I'm having a soundtrack. And then I'm like, oh, no, I'm not going to get that. I'm not going to get the dopamine and the adrenaline rush of being on stage and the community filling. And I'm just going to like go get my windshield fixed today. And I'm like, I can't live my life this way.

But now I'm like settling in and I'm like, you know, I have 10 other projects that I have to get to work on. And so I'm really busy. So this is one area that I see a lot of my peers failing spectacularly in, which is if you're known as a rebel and you've been here long enough walking a path, the path that you made, what happens once there's no more struggle? like do you feel comfortable if it's just you in the songs now like if there's not something to rebel or fight against? I think what's what's problematic right now, especially politically with a lot of my peers that are my age, that you would hope kind of step to the plate or at least live up to the idea of what I thought they were when I was listening to them at 18 or 19. But I realized that, oh, well, none of them are going to stand on the political right side of history because that would ruin their brand. So I know on my side of the fence, there's a lot of cats that are thinking of brand preservation.

Like, what does it look like me complying with the system that I railed against for 30 years? And I always wondered, like, well, do you ever imagine like 30 years, 40 years ago when you guys released records that you inspired a 20-year-old college students to get politically active and then become the answer to, you know, the problem that faced us in the 80s and 90s. So I'll ask you, if there's no more. And of course, I know there's plenty of struggle. We're in the, this is the fight for our life struggle. Yeah. But oftentimes do you imagine, I don't think it's naive. I do believe that we are in a paradigm shift.

And a lot of the, air quote, fluctuity that we're experiencing right now is kind of a dying spirit grasping. Yeah, they're hanging, they're hanging off of the mountain by their fingernails. Yeah, it's why they're doing all this completely crazy stuff. And you have to believe that to have any hope. And it's like, we just have to step on. Oh, yeah, I'm a serial manifester. I have no worries. I sleep at night because I know what's going to happen.

And it's up to us, those who are Gen X, those boomers still alive, to adjust to it. And you're seeing a lot of people not wanting to adjust to where we are now. in 2024. But for you, do you imagine that there will be a day where there will be no more struggle where righteous women are taking the lead and toxic male energy has eroded? Like, do you imagine a future in which it's ideal for you? I live in that future because I... That's how you survive. Yeah. And like, I surround my...

myself with positive people. A lot of times when I experienced sexism now, which I do, I actually just went through a thing where I had to fire somebody. But it was like, I was so shocked by the, there's certain men who just cannot work with women. And it's just really wild when you come encounter with them. It's sort of like if somebody comes to do work at the house and they're like, is the man of the house at home? you know, like, can I speak to your husband? Yeah. Yeah, like that kind of thing or like people who will only talk to Adam and

they don't look at me, which I actually find totally gratifying because I like to just be able, it means I can watch, you know, and I'm kind of like I like to observe. So I'm fighting with that in a way. Although, you know, it can be very annoying. But in my head, I, I'm around all these amazing creative people who, that's not the thing. Like, they're not asking me what it's like to be a woman in a band, you know, they don't give a shit. Like they're just like, we're making art and we're doing this stuff and we're going to,

you know, turn each other on to great art and like do all that. So it's like, I know what's going. I know what's going on in the world. I mean, not like, you know, I'm not a scholar on politics or anything, but like I deeply care about what's going on in the world. And it is really, really awful right now. And I can't separate myself from that. But at the same time in my day to day, when I encounter stuff like, you know,

really bad sexism. I don't even understand what's happening anymore. Like, I'm just like, I don't even, you, are you a dinosaur from Jurassic Park? Like,

I don't know what you're talking about. Like, it's so confusing when it happens. And I think it's, it's really weird when I've managed to create a tight net group of people who, like, I just, we're not sitting around talking about,

you know, if we're fuckable. You know what I mean? Like, got it. It's just like, I don't, I just try to live in my own.

fantasy land of like what can be possible. And I know from my groups of friends and from people that I meet on tour that like that world is possible. I believe in that world. But right now we don't live in a post racial society. We don't live in a post-success society. We don't live. And that's the thing that's really frustrating is a lot of people, there's a really big difference from creating something that you can survive within, like an artistic community that you're thriving and being challenged and pretending that stuff doesn't exist and putting your head in the same. sand. Do you know what I mean? Like, like you have to be able to kind of traverse between those two different things where you're like really yourself as an individual and really a part of a

community and the part of you as an individual feeds a community and the community feeds the part of you that's an individual as opposed to seeing it as a either or. You know, either I'm a total hedonistic like, you know, Eric Clapton like Jackingoff on the guitar or I'm strictly a political activist. It's like those things aren't separate in my life anymore. They used to be and that caused me a lot of strife. So anytime that I was enjoying, it was like, oh, somebody's going to, and I think it's also psychological. I felt like somebody's going to take this way from me. You know, I think it's fascinating, like, writing the book that I learned psychologically. I was like, you know, it's really funny is that I grew up in a family. Like my dad

is like, it was like very much a person who would, just when you were right on the top of the mountain, he'd like knock you off. You know what I mean? It's like, wait till you're like really in a positive place. And so every time I'm in a positive place in my life, I'm waiting for to get knocked off, right? I'm waiting for the rug to get pulled out from. Sure. I mean, and I, but I see it. Now I see it.

I'm like, I refuse that. But, okay. Like something great happens to me. I'm like, oh, I'm just waiting for the backlash. No. Which is normal also. Or I'm just waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under me. And then, but now I can sit with it and be like, I know where that comes from.

That comes from growing up in this situation. It comes from I start getting attention. And then my community turns on me. someone punches me in the face and threatens me. You know, people are like being like really weird and I'm super confused. I'm watching friends die. Like I associated being myself and really being large with like getting in trouble. And now I'm able to just do that and be like, you know what?

I can't control other people's behavior. If I'm going to, you know, really be putting out my art the way I want to and be doing the things and saying the things that I want to and people are going to come after me, so be it. What am I going to? I can't control other people's behavior. anymore. So I'm not going to, like, shrink myself to avoid the rug getting pulled out from under me. Go ahead. Try to pull the rug out from under me. I dare you. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to live. look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more

fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-P-Cent on the I-Hart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clivert Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him. Hi, Dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen.

She says, I have some cookies and milk. This is a badass convict. Right. Just finished by you. I'm going to have cookies and milk at them all. Yeah. On the Sino Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances.

The entire season two is now available to bench featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this trouble, I'm going to die. Open your free IHR radio app. Search the Cino Show. And listen now. Hey there, folks. Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes here.

And we know there is a lot of news coming at you these days from the war with Iran to the ongoing Epstein fallout, government shutdowns, high-profile trials. And what the hell is that Blake lively thing about anyway? We are on it every day, all day. Follow us, Amy and TJ for news updates throughout the day. Listen to Amy and TJ on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I have three questions left. If you... I'm going to use the question.

I want to talk to you about music. I am. Wait, way, I'm going to come over to your apartment and, like, sit outside and just like sitting on your stoop and be like... Dude. Come down here. Talk to me about Tony DeFranco. I welcome it. If you were given the power to change one thing...

from your past, what would you change? I mean, I should just give you the honest answer instead of late. What's the honest answer? See, if I think about it, it's going to be something really deep. But the first thing that comes to mind is I would have taken more time recording the Bikini Kill Records, the first two Bikini Kill Records, because the idea was like, go in and play like it's a live show. don't put stuff on your voice because that's like putting panty hose over your hairy legs or something. You know what I mean?

Like that I was like trying to be like so raw that other people could relate to it. And it's not that I'd still don't keep like mistakes when they're cool in stuff that I put out. But it's like I wish we would have taken a more a little more time because performing those songs live and then knowing what they sound like on record. Like I can't even listen to them because they're just recorded so poorly, especially this one record that was recorded on 4 track on a tape that somebody else had used so you could hear the other band in the background. That's so real to me, man.

And like literally we spent $17 recording this record. It was a split record with Huggy Bear, and their side sounds fantastic. And our side sounds like shit. And like if I could go back and redo those, because there's all these great songs that some jigsaw youth, I really love performing live. And there's not a great recorded version of it. And so, like, I can't, I don't want to go back in the studio and record it now. That's weird.

I can't, like, you know, change history. And those records sound the way they sound because of the time and because of, you know, we didn't have any money and whatever. But I didn't understand yet that the recording process was a different art than live. I was all about the live show to the point of like, let's capture the live show, like a snapshot. Like, you know, Henry Brasson, like on the street, like taking snapshots of people. Like I was trying to like get a snapshot. But then when I learned about the art of recording and I got in got my first four track and then my first eight track.

A track. I was like, oh, this is a, you know, it's a difference between an essay and a play or, you know, it's a different thing. And I wasn't exploiting what I could do with those songs on the record. And so I would go back. I wish I had said something really smart about. Oh, that was honest. Yeah. I accept that answer.

That's something that that bugs me like, you know, once a week. Okay. Five non-greatest hits. Five non-box set. Five non-live albums. I'm so bad at lists because I have like brain stuff. So I don't know if I can do it. Don't say that.

Just say it. See, I used to do the House on. fire, you can only save five records. But it can't be box set. It can't be live and it can't be greatest hits. Five albums that are in your lifetime

capsule. I just say an artist because I can never remember which album is the one that I really like. I'll help you. I'll have to leave for my thing. Okay, it would probably be Charday. I probably listen to Sardé. Or the Blue album,

Stronger Than Pride, or the one was smooth operator on it. Oh, her first, her debut. The first one. The first one. Shearned. Okay, that's number one. Charde.

Yeah, when I was in high school, I was like, my mom went to see her and I was like, are you going to see Seid? Seed. So, yeah, probably Shardet is somebody who I just come back to over and over and over. Timeless. The other would be Yaz, upstairs at Erick's. Yes. Moya.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yazoo. Yazoo, yeah. Because they had to change your name because there was another band. So they were like Yazoo and then they were like Yazukk or something. I got it.

Three. So that, I'm just trying to think of like what I actually listen to. Listen to. Yes. Not the impressive, the impress us list. What you actually listen to? Clinic. What is the name of the album?

It's like, because I have all my stuff on shuffle. So I'm never sure what the album is anymore. the blue album with the yellow on it. With distortions on it? Oh, the blue album. It's blue and yellow. Not fantasy. I'm so bad with title.

I literally do have like a memory problems. Fantasy Island. I see Clinic Fantasy Island. It's blue and yellow. But yeah, okay, that's it. I didn't know it was called Fantasy Island. I have no idea. Okay.

Clinic Fantasy Island. Five. Isaac Hayes live at the Sierra. Sarah. Sarah Tahoe. Yeah. His ain't no. Sunshine is a great cover.

Well, and the whole, the, the, I think about the lead in to use me all time. Yeah. Because it's that thing of where you're turning something that is supposedly really negative into something where he's like, if you're going to use me, then so be it. Right. And I think about that in like the weirdest times of like when I get asked to be like the woman on the panel at the last minute. Right.

And I'm getting paid like half of what the men are getting paid. And I'm like, if you are going to use me, so be it. As long as I get paid. No, that's a classic album. I like it. So we're at, where are we at? That was five. Oh, God, I could go on forever.

But if I really was on a desert island, I would need strawberry shortcake live at the Big Apple disco to keep me laughing. You lovely weirdo you. Have you heard it? I've not heard it. I have two copies. Strawberry Shortcake made a disco record. Live at the Big.

Apple Disco, there's a song called Strawberry Shrake Rap on it. I take this album deadly serious. I saw a 13-year-old girl acted out in front of me when I was really high, and it was one of the best experiences, one of the best after-show experiences I've ever had. And then I just started buying it. And every time I see it, I buy it. It's so good. Because like the story, she comes from, like, Strawberry Land to New York City, and it's her

whole story. and then there's this one song where she's clearly on PCP on a roof. So I'm just saying. I didn't know her entire like catalog is on Spotify. Okay, great. I troll her on Instagram. That's the only thing I do on Instagram is I trolled the Strawberry Shortcake account. Like they're like, it's like her and her berry friends.

They're like riding a bike and they're like, we're riding into an empowered future for women. And I was like, just don't get pregnant in Texas, strawberry. Nice. I'm an adult who's like trolling a car. I love the idea. of cartoon characters. Like we used to sample a lot of stuff from, I'm not going to say who it is,

but from cartoons in one of my bands. And I was like, what are they going to do, sue us? I would picture the cartoon character showing up in court. I'd be like, going to have deputy dogs, going to show up and sue me. Musky. Cartoons are litigious. Okay.

You merit the person that started his career, making fun of... I knew this was coming. You married a person to start his career, making fun of a cake. Anyway, last question. Of everything that you've achieved, like for you,

what is the one thing that you're proudest to celebrate of what you've done with your life? I mean, today, I'm pretty proud to know that, like, I had an effect on Rich, and then Rich had an effect on you like I would have never in a million years guess that like that I had any kind of effect on the roots

like when I came to New York Adam one of our most romantic dates that I'll remember for the rest of my life was when he took me to see you all in New York when I first moved there and like we were like I mean I was only 30 but we were like old people slow dancing in the back and it was like you all are so good live and I was just like it was the best show and like to think that stuff I did had any kind of influence on you and like I followed your career. Like Summer of Soul is like a huge movie in my life. You probably didn't see it. But of course I wrote you like a huge gushing, you know, DM like just like, oh my God.

You know, like that footage is. I can watch that a million times. It's so great. And to see somebody who's like, I hate branding. I hate the phrase using your platform. I hate all that stuff. But to see somebody who's able to still be like so vital and. and creative within this like hustle till you die world.

It's, it's really inspirational. So I think inspiring you at all and having any kind of bit to do with your creativity is kind of those stories. That is that. And like, you know, a girl who told me I helped her get through, you know, her pastor, sexually assaulting her. and that listening to, you know, records that I was on and reading stuff that I, I said in interviews, made her tell her parents. And then her parents were really supportive.

And then her parents came to the show with her and they all thanked me. That was a moment. Wow. You know, having a family, having a mom say, thank you for being there for my daughter. I was there for her as much as I could. But you were there in this one little spot that I couldn't reach. And I was like, a family. And this is in, you know, this is like more modern times like in the past few years.

I never, you know, when Bikini Kill first started, like crazy things happen like a woman who worked at a juvenile detention center got all the juvie girls to come to one of our shows for a field trip. Like those were the kooky things that happened that I was like, this is amazing. But nowadays, to have to see a family supporting a child who has experienced sexual assault is like really gratifying. me feel like the world can change and can keep changing for the better. Kathleen, I thank you for this long, overdue conversation. I want to do one where we just talk about records and talk about music. So I'm going to,

I'm going to start a podcast and you're going to be my first guest. And then I'll be your first guest, I promise. Okay. I promise. No, thank you for doing this. Give your regards to Adam, who will be a future guest on the show. He has a lot to say about MC Shadie.

I know. I was like, wow, he put you on the MC Shidi from Luke Records. I had that record and he was like, oh, my God, how do you have this record? And I was like, because I like the cover. He's so cute on the cover. But apparently his DJ can eat 10 eggs at one sitting. You weirdos. I know, whatever.

We'll hang out sometime. But thank you so much for having me on. It's Joy and I really appreciate it. And it's just a fun way to spend a day. Thank you. And on behalf of the QAWS fam, Laia, unpaid Bill and Sugar Steve. And shout out to Britt and Jake. This is Questlove.

And we'll see you on the next go round. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Questlove Supreme. Hosted by Amir Questlove Thompson. Laya St. Clair, Sugar Steve Mandel, and Unpaid Bill Sherman. Executive producers are Amir Quesloff Thompson, Sean Gee, and Brian Cowell, Produced by Brittany Benjamin, Cousin Jake Payne,

Elias St. Clair. Edited by Alex Convoy. Produced by IHeart by Noel Brown. Much Love Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2%.

That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships,

and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWA% on the I-HartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

On The Look Back at it podcast For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here?

We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation, is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On the Ceno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon, Danny Trail, talk about addiction, transformation,

and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to bench, featuring powerful conversations, with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this group, I'm going to die. Luther Nacino's show on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an I-Heart podcast.

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