The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Ramon Hervey II

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Ramon Hervey II is a manager, publicist, and trusted confident to heavyweights like Richard Pryor, Bette Midler, Little Richard, Quincy Jones, Don Cornelius, the Bee Gees, Herb Alpert, Andrae Crouch, Vanessa Williams, Rick James, Paul McCartney, Luther Vandross, Peter Frampton, James Caan, Aaliyah and more. He joins Questlove Supreme to talk about his experiences in the entertainment industry, and discuss his new book, The Fame Game.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeartRadio. All right, ladies and gentlemen, this is Questlove, Questlove Supreme, back on Zoom. I had a dream that we were actually out the open and uh we saw the world and we saw each other and we were doing these shows in person yeah wow with roll calls and everything yeah man it was so amazing like you were there and you were

there and you were there it's amazing bill there too i dreamt that bill was there you know yeah that's good dreams yeah it was amazing no it's good to be back we're here with uh the the fam it's uh Bill, Steve, and Laia, Fonte went out to get some cigarettes, but as always. It's coming back faster this time. He gives us regards. Let me go a little bit off the rails. This might be quasi-linked, but I'll say this much as a preface to this particular episode. I'm going to start with a quickie personal story.

And that story is basically, so there's a gentleman that's been in my organization. His name is Silbert Mani. And silver, like the thing about the roots organization is, you know, we work with literally the best people. And I've had very few terminations, you know, 30 years at the helm of this organization. I mean, yeah, some people like move on to do other projects. And for the most part, I'll say that everyone in my organization has done superb work and has been, you know, with us anywhere from 10 to 30 years. So when I say we get the best of the best, we get the best. Now, in the case of Mr. Armani, Silbert, he came to meet with us about potentially being the new Roots tour manager.

And being a tour manager is sort of like being the group's father, like what Dave Seville is to the chipmunks. That's what a tour manager is to make sure that everything runs smoothly. And that was the role he was feeling in. And, you know, we are a professional organization. And, you know, job interviews are a thing. where, you know, it's not like I'm in an office with a receptionist and a call feedbacker or any of those things. But I am very serious about the tour manager position. And it's also been a very long time since we've had a male in this particular position.

You know, I'll say over these 30 years that 80% of our organization has been run by women. So when Seale kind of came in this organization, I wanted to come with the hard questions. And I simply asked one question. I said, what do you think you have that qualifies you to work in the capacity as tour manager for the roots? And he said, I've been public enemies tour manager for 15 years. 100 plus shows a year. Theaters, clubs, stadiums worldwide, opening for the biggest rock acts in the world like solo dates, all stops in between. he said, and never once has Flavre

been late or ever missed a and before you said the last word, I was like, you're hired. That's all I needed to hear. And, you know, when you as the patron, you go to Madison Square Garden to see, you know, a Kendrick show or whatever, you know, we praise artists and all the time,

but we never ever get to see how the sausage made. We never give praise to the tour bus driver for getting them there or the manager for negotiating the right contract or even the tour manager for getting the act there at one time to give you your money's worth. So there's a new book that's been written by our guest today called the fame game, an insider's playbook for earning your 15 minutes of fame. And for some reason, I know that the your and the title is sort of implied to the artist, but I actually think, think that this book is meant for anyone who's currently an intern or an assistant, future managers, future publicists. This book is almost, it's an important, like I was reading it thinking like,

oh, maybe I could use this when I get job 20 to be a manager because you guys know I've like some jobs. Okay, so before the rest of Quest of Supreme gets bored to death with this long ass intro. I will just say that our guest today has simply worked with the best. And his job is to be the person who is behind the scenes that make sure everything is running smoothly. And he's also the person that gets that 3 a.m. phone call when shit hits the fan. Name them. Quincy Jones, Don Cornelius, Herb Albert, Andre Krauss, Luther Mandros, Paul McCartney, Peter Frampton, Nick Nolte, Muhammad Ali, Richard Pryor, Bet Mittler. Like literally there's no one.

Vanessa, I can name it. I apologize for this long-ass intro, but I think it's really important that I'd set this up. Please welcome to Questlove Supreme, the one and the only super manager and Dr. Fixit, the one and only, Ramon Harvey,

the second on Questlove Supreme. Thank you. That was really well crafted and it makes a lot of sense. Well, can I just ask, like, let me ask the final question first. Yes. What's your secret, Ramon, to your, to being successful at what you, what you chose to do all these years? Can I add to that? It's more why.

Why would you want to stress yourself out with this job? You have the most dangerous job in entertainment. That's all. My take after finishing the book was, why would you want to do this? that what's your answer you know I think that over the you know I kind of fell into it by accident first of all I never really wanted to I didn't grow up to be a manager or a publicist I just I was I was a flight attendant for Pan Am airlines and I ended up you know flying to London and I live there for four years and that's where I got my my break in the music industry and it was quite by

accident, you know, I was dating a singer and her agency, I got laid off from Pan Am. And I was actually the only black was reprim, you know, at that time, Pan Am, this was in the mid-70s and Pan Am didn't have any black people. Right. For the most part, they had very few. And they had no males. All the international airlines like Votanza, Air France, British Airways, they all had men, but there was no men in any of the American Airlines.

So I killed two birds with one stone being black and being a male. And that's why I got hired. And in fact, I always tell a funny story that we had, I had a huge afro and I used to have to pat it down because we had a three-inch maximum from the top of your head to the outskirts of your wherever your appro reached. So I used to pat it down, put water on, you know. Or Dippity Doo. If you were in the 80s, Dippity Doe was like your best.

Yeah, yeah, right, right. Well, Afrochene, whatever you could do. All right. When I got over there and this opportunity to work at this talent agency came up, I just found that I had a certain understanding of I interacted well with artists. I worked with Bay City Rollers over there with this agency called Starlight Artist, and I worked with a group called Marmalade. Bay City Rolls were supposed to be like the next Beatles at the time,

but a lot of people don't realize they actually didn't sing on their records. There was two guys named Bill Coulter and Bill Martin and Phil Coulter, who produced and wrote two records for the Bay Rollers, and they got them on top of the pops, whatever. but they in those days you could you could lip sync so they never had to sing and they they actually got you know the first album was huge and they never really performed almost everything they did was lip sync are you are you disappointed steve i'm literally about to jump out the window right now i'm i'm a big bay city rollers fan oh yeah well i'm sorry to bust your bubble but no they didn't they didn't it was all done by session singers you just milly vanilla it steve's dreams yeah they were before milly valiantly did the whole thing. So the second record was actually done after they got successful in the first record, they got kind of full of themselves and they said, hey, we don't want to do, we don't want to use these guys. So they fired them. And they, those guys went and got five new faces, some English guys

named Kenny. And that was one of the groups that I worked with over there. And then also I got to work as an editor for a couple of music magazines. So I just had a sense of, a sense of that music was maybe in my destiny, you know, relating to artists. But when, Ramon, because you were a flight attendant first, but before flight attendant, yeah, and then I got laid off. What year was it that you did your time in London? From 1973 to 1977. Oh, wow.

Okay. So, you know, the music scene was really vibrant then. Bowie and, you know, Alvin Stardust and Gary. glitter and I mean you know the rolling stones I remember seeing the first time I saw Billy Preston he opened for the Rolling Stones at Wembley that was in the 70s and he was just incredible I thought he blew him off the stage to be honest but there was just it was just a hotbed of music I mean I got to see some of the best you know I saw Elton John at the peak of his career back then at the um it was the rain uh it's one of the most of the most of the

famous concert halls in London. I forget to know it begins with an R. Royal Albert Hall. Royal Albert Hall. Yeah. Royal Albert Hall. And he was just, he was amazing. Well, first, I'm fascinated. I know that because of your Pan Am experience,

like you go back and forth to London a lot, but it's just so. No, I was based there. I lived there for that whole time. Right, but you didn't get to pick it. He didn't even get to pick it. You didn't even know you were going to be there because people don't know that part

about being a flight. they're right they just said go well we had three bases to choose from it was washington dc boston or london and i was one i was the only guy and four women who got picked to go to london where were you born first of all i was born in chicago eleanoris and i was my dad was in the service so we moved around a lot i went to uh elementary school um in um springfield mass And then he got transferred to Vanderberg Air Force Base. I went to junior high school up in Lompo, California, which is about 60 miles inland from Santa Barbara. Right.

And I went to junior high school and high school there. Then I went to Whittier College and, you know, just a little bit east of northeast of L.A. And got my undergraduate there. Really went to school to be a lawyer. And then a friend of mine, actually Cheryl Boone Isaacs, who used to be. the president of the Academy Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Yeah. She was the first black woman to do that.

We actually, I met her in college and she was from Springfield as well. And she got a job with Pan Am and that's how I ended up. She said, hey, you know, you should apply for Pan Am and they're looking for black men. And I said, really? And she had already been doing it for a year. So I said, all right, I'll apply. What the heck? You know, I wanted to travel anyway, I didn't sure if I wanted to continue my education.

And so it was really from her that I got the tip that they were even hiring. And then I finally got, you know, I got hired. And that's, it took six months process, three interviews or some screening process. And they wanted to know at that time, my afra was even bigger. They said, you know, would you be willing to cut your after? And I said, well, no, not for you just to see. it but if you hire me yeah but uh yeah so that's how that's how i ended up going over there to make a move that bold especially that early i mean okay this it's five years after what i consider

the the civil rights period of the 60s which you know most people look at 1968 is sort of like a seminal year where a lot of revolutionary changes happened but what i mean the difference between what you did and the difference between a lot of the artists that you represent. Like as an artist, the first thing that under my head was like, oh, fear. Like, I'm going to be safe. That's too risky. Why would I do that? Like, it's very unusual.

Like for at least, I don't know many black men are thinking international or that they could have a space in someplace that's not the United States, you know, but. What was it generally about you that thought bigger, thought more international, thought that you could handle this? Because for me, like, this is something that only white people would do and not... I always had a feeling of wanting to be adventurous and try new things, try something, you know, different that hadn't been done before. You know, nobody in my family had really traveled. I'd only been on an airplane like from... from L.A. to San Francisco.

I'd never even traveled from one coast to the other, you know, because when we came cross-country, drove in a car, and one of those little tent things that you prop up, it looks like a trailer. Oh, on the top of the car? Yeah, yeah. It's like a tent that you built. And that's how, you know,

that's how we ended up coming from Springfield to, yeah, east to west. So. Please don't say, so that was your first time flying? you doing the pan air? Yeah, yeah. It was my first time flying when I went in training. I was nervous about, I wasn't nervous about from inside in terms of like I thought I could figure out whatever.

You know, I just thought I had always wanted to travel, see the world and just get out of the context of just being a black man in the U.S. Yes. I felt like in those times, everyone that, that's all they ever talked to you about was, you know, it was a black, white thing. And I wanted to see what the, if I would be perceived differently in another part of the world or my, you know, what I, would maybe would anyone even look at me as being an American. Could you just talk about just generally, well, now that you are professional and you are a renowned, like a world traveler, whatnot. Um, what are the basic differences that you could say we're in London at the time when you first lived there as opposed to now where it's kind of like.

you know the internet has sort of colonized the world where there's Starbucks everywhere a 7-11 everywhere a kfc McDonald's every you know you get the same uh j cole record around the world at the same time but for you in general what are what were the most what's what's the difference in how your life was first living there as opposed to how it is now i think the biggest difference was um well two things that i noticed right off the bat one is One is that for the very first time in my whole life that I could recall, I was in a pub, and somebody asked me what it was like to be an American. And I went, geez, I don't know.

No one's ever asked me that question. They only ever asked me what it's like to be black. I need to really think about that for a second because I don't, I've never really thought of myself as an American, to be honest. You know, that was like a big question. And that was, you know, that was part of the process of wanting to go there in the first places to see how I would be viewed. And so there was that part. But then on the black side, they, they were a little bit behind our civil rights movement at the time. So they, they didn't

really see themselves. They just saw themselves as being English. And I remember asking a guy, what's it like to be, what's it like to be black in this, you know, in England? You know, because the voices are different, the inflection. They, they speak English like English people, you know right a little bit different than us you know and you have colloquialism and throughout different parts of you know depending if you're on the east coast west coast you know but we're basically speaking a little bit different vibe than the way the english folk and so but they kind of resented the idea that i was looking at them as being anything other than english and i thought weird i just wow so you just you just consider yourself to be english like english i mean you know that's

doesn't really work that way in the state. But, you know, more power to you if that's the way it works. You know, and this was very early on in the Embrytic days of me being there and just getting adjusted to, you know, being in a place where it's the majority. You know, the one thing about England that makes it easier and more accessible for black people or American people is it is English. You are speaking English. It is their language, although it is totally different.

Like when I was an editor, I had to learn to spell every year. everything different because they don't pronounce everything the same as we do. You know, like there's a, I remember that one of the silliest things. I was going to the movie theater. They call it the cinema over there. And one of the most famous squares in, in England is, is Lester Square. Lester Square, yeah. And that's where they have all the big theaters.

But it's spelled L-E-I-C-E-S-T-R. So I get in a cab and the guy goes, where are you going? I said, I'm going to Lysester Square. And he goes, I never heard of Lysester Square. That's what do you mean you never heard of Lysester Square? I mean, like, how long you've been driving a cat? Oh, shit. I've been driving a cab for like 30 years.

And I said, well, it's the, you know, it's the square, you know, Lysester Square where all the theaters are really, you know, it's all where all your big cinemas are and, you know, theaters. He goes, oh, oh, you mean Lester Square. And I said, Lester Square, that's how you say it? And I said, well, in the States, we would spell that, you know, L-E-S-T-E-R. So I think I spell it that way. You know, I just had to learn all kinds of different spellings and stuff like that, you know.

But it was also still easier than, like, say, you know, my second language was French, but it was still easier to do that than to go to Paris and try to speak French because they really had a snooty attitude about Americans trying to speak. speak French. Exactly. They immediately thought you were, you know, persecuting their language, you know. The only language I ever learned to, I understand. You speak French?

Is Jean-Pollet-Fon-a-Fon-e-on-er, like, on her, like, oh, like, you know. And that's a no. Comment from Bill. Yeah. I mean, I'm an American that learned a lesson, that learned the language in school. I'm a, what do y'all think? Yeah. Time out.

Yeah. Yeah. Steve. Yes. Amir. Do you have 20 copies of the Bay City Roller's first album behind you? Oh, shit. That was such a long joke.

That's been up there for like 10, 15 minutes. No one said shit. That was a long joke, man. It's been sitting there. I didn't even see him do that. Oh, my God. You got the worst. Like, dog, why do you have 20 copies of this record?

That's hilarious. Well, first of all, it's more like 30. And I probably owned about 100 copies of this. And I give them away. I buy it every time. I see it. So is this the album you're referring to? It's like, I believe it's like the first American Yeah, that's the first one. In fact, they really, because of that problem with the producers, you know, the one show that everyone broke on and during those days was Top of the Pops,

which was one of the most influential music shows ever. Yeah. In any, you know, in any country that I know of, I mean, you could really break and keep sustain a career just being on top of the Pops. But they changed the ruling and you had to start singing live to track on the show because of that. Because they weren't the only ones that were doing that. And so the unions and everything started complaining. Oh. And they switched the procedure so that you couldn't lip sync on top of the pops. But for the first 10 years, I think that the show existed, you could, it was always lip syncing.

Right. Well, I understand that they were lip syncing. But are you suggesting or did you suggest that they had session singers in the making? of the albums the making their first album was completely written recorded by session singers you've been had steve yeah all right well you're in their life thank you romeone talk to you and again they had that they had two records recorded and they just put the they put other guys together and they used the exact same you know they made a few tweaks in the record in the second record that would have been the bay city roller second record

So very sorry. Not a new idea. Ramona's right. That rule is actually what saved the Roots life only because the French version of that show. We had a situation, and I explained it before where DeBrett was a guest on the show. And she wanted to lip sing her song. And they're like, no, you have to do it live to track. And she caught an attitude, walked off the show.

And we got the call to, you know, can you fill in her? 18 minutes and this is you know long story short the next day like the roots could suddenly go from playing elise moma over in paris to play like the zenith like their version of manassar square garden so you're right like some of those shows are like that where you have to sing it even if it's too can track you still have to sing live to it and so well whoever whoever sang on this record It's incredible. Well, whether, you know, whether it's them or not. Yeah.

But, but, but okay. They're probably pretty old now. Well, less McCa. Les McCune, I think was his name, a lead singer. He passed away recently. Oh, did he? Yeah.

Did not know that. Wow. A win is a win. A win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits.

the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends,

Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed I will be his last target.

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Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with him one day. And I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent.

He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat.

Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I would like to know, what do you consider the first step? the first step into your career path. Like, how do you start inching towards the entertainment business?

I think the first step was that working for that talent agency in London, Starlight Artist. And so then I had, I had been there for almost four years and had to make a decision whether to stay there and become British more or less. or come back to the States. And I really didn't want to be, there was a chance I could get hired back at Pan Am, but I felt like my time up there with Pan Am had kind of was over. I mean, you know, I used to tell people I'm a waiter in the sky because, you know, I had a college degree.

Right. All I was doing was, I was really just a waiter. You just do it on a plane instead of at a restaurant. And I just felt like I didn't go to college just to do that job, even though it was a lot of fun. I got to see the world and it was great. So I came back to the States and I decided I wanted to continue to work, you know, in the entertainment business.

But I had been an editor of those two magazines. They were both pop zine magazines. One was called poster and one was called Superstar. And I was the only guy. I wrote the whole magazine, but I told the guys, I said, you know, if you really want to, we have to make it look like we're a bigger operation. Right. And I don't, you know, I don't want to have the only name.

And, you know, so what if you don't have a problem, I like to make up some names of other writers. I'll still write it. And I'll try to write a little bit different sort of feel like we have a staff. So you were basically what Cynthia Horner was to write on magazine. Yes, exactly. Only she was really the only and she didn't care. I cared. I didn't want to be the only person.

But yeah, Cynthia Horner, wow, that's a flashback. Yeah. That's my dream interview. And, you know, she's very shy about coming on on this podcast. And I think she just thinks like, no one knows who I am. And that's not big of a deal. But this is literally the platform. Oh, yeah.

That she raised. You know, when you start off in the entertainment business in black press or whatever, everyone knew who sent you a Horner was. Right. You got to go through her first. Yeah. She was one of the, you know, right on was one of the top magazines for you to get exposure in if you're a black artist. Yeah.

So coming back to the States, how much of a. culture shock was it for you because I mean you're living in London in a key period of development in the United States you know like the the Nixon period you know the college you know Nixon's college I went to Nixon's college that was really college that's where he was yeah he went to a weird year college and they all they also said that he was from Whittier but he wasn't from Whittier he was from Lour Belinda he was was born there and he went through, he went through the radio school system, but he didn't actually, he wasn't a resident of. So when all the shit hit the fan, they pretty much, they had a

sign saying, welcome to right down their main street was Greenleaf Avenue. Welcome to President Nixon's hometown. And then when, when Watergate happened, they tore the signs. They said, well, actually, they went on the whole campaign really to disown him. And they said, no, he's not really from here. You know, he's from Lerjolinda, but he was really adopted by Wittiers. That was a funny. So was how much of a...

It was a big culture shock because for one, you know, the music was really different. I had, I wasn't really in tune with all the music that was going on in the States. And, you know, four years is a big, you know, vacuum of time to lose connection with your roots. And one of the first groups that I fell in, love with when I came back was Brothers Johnson.

Right. And the song, Get the Funk Out the Face. Right. And but when I listened to it on the radio, the first time I heard it, and I had a British accent that I didn't even try to, I didn't realize it until I got back and, you know, some of my friend name, well, what's, what's up with you, bro? Right. This voice you got, you know, I was calling things petrol instead of gas. There's just little things that you learn just from, you know, being in one place for four years, you know, and I had to read, you know, and I had to read. turn that stuff off and readjusted. And also I drove on the wrong side of the street in,

you know, one time in LA because I was used to driving and I was in the car with my sister. And she says, hey, I don't want to scare you, but you drive on the wrong side of the street. Right. You know, so I had to turn, you know, so little things like that. But I thought that that song said, get the fuck out my face. Right. And I called her friend. I said, wow, man, music has really changed here. like radio like now you can say fuck on the radio station they go no man they're not saying that they're saying funk and I go oh get the fun oh okay I got it got it got it you know but I mean a lot of things had had changed and I got luck very lucky I was I literally was working in a photomat booth

when those little yellow yeah yeah one of those little huts I miss those things man it was on it was in the hood and on rodeo in and off Crenshaw it's right next to a pioneer chicken. And I was, you know, I came back. I didn't come back with a lot of money or whatever. So I just got a part-time job because that job, I could work from three to eight and I could look for a real job during the day. And I was trying to be a writer. I was applying to Rolling Stone through Benfong Tories and trying to, you know, but everything was on spec. Everybody said, well, you know, the way we do it here. And I said, well, I need some money. So I found this job. And I said, you know, I figured I'd only worked there for a couple of weeks, which is what happened. I only worked there

for a couple of weeks, but it was one of those crazy jobs where people, they were, it was always getting robbed and they had women there all before me. So they hired me because they thought it would be more, you know, I'd be more intimidating. And they, I don't know why people would want to rob a photomat booth. There's not a lot of money at hand. Wait, can you explain this to me? Because I was way too young, but like photomat is those booths were literally like the size of telephone booths, right? Yeah, I could barely fit in it. I mean, Every time I moved, I knocked something over my knees or something. You know, there was, but it was like just an easy job, you know.

You would just take the photos or like, would you have to process the photos too? No, what it's basically a drop off. It was drive by. So people would come in, they would bring their film. And then I'd give them a receipt and put it in a, and then when the film came, a delivery truck would come by and drop off the process films. So all I was was a cashier and exchanging film. collecting film and then giving people their photos.

After Back to the Future, I'd stop seeing those photos. Yeah, they're around for a while, you know. And so I remember one time the guy calls me up and says, hey, we're going to come down and rob the place. And I go, oh, okay, well, thanks for the head up. Heads up, you know. I went to, I went inside and Pioneer Chicken. I called the manager.

I said, hey, man, these guys are, I got a call saying they're going to rob the place. I'm going to sit in here for a few minutes. see if anyone comes by. If they don't, I'll go back in the hut, you know. Oh, my God. So it was just crazy. Now, that was really culture shock, you know, coming from, because I had not really lived in a black area like that. I wasn't raised in that area. And that was an all black ghetto area. So that was a difference from living in London. So it was a cultural shock on many levels.

But it was while I was working in there, a photographer named Bruce Talliman. I don't know if you've heard of them. Yes. He. You all shot the Jackson's and Parliament Funkadelic? You know Bruce Toler. Yeah, Bruce also went to Whittier College. So. Legend legendary photographer, like.

Yeah, legendary, you know, and he worked for, he's got a great book out too, a great coffee table bookhead if you haven't seen it. I got that for, someone gave that to me for my 50th birthday. And he was kind enough to sign it for me. Yeah, and he's, you know, he's been, he's had a really stellar career.

And he heard that, I saw his name in the staff for Soul Magazine, Virginia Jones, Soul Magazine. Yes. Because I was going to try to write for that. And then I saw Bruce. And so I called him up and said, hey, Bruce, man, how you doing? I see you're like a photographer, blah, blah, blah. I'm trying to get into business here.

And so he said, well, you know, I know, I think somebody, this guy, Bob Jones at Motown, who is the black publicist there at the time. he's looking for, I think he's looking for an assistant, would you be interested? I said, yeah, sure, you know, have him call me, you know, or I'll call him whatever. And Bob Jones called me while I was working at the photo booth, and he said, hey, would you like to come in an interview for a junior publicist position at Motown? And Motown had just moved from Detroit, and they were based, they moved into the CNN building on Sunset.

That's where the first... This was 77? Yeah, this was 77. And they moved to... They moved out of Detroit to Hollywood for the first time. You got to explain something to me. What is the... What was the role of Iris Gordy?

Because, you know, coming of age and being a fan of like high energy, switch, just a lot of those Love Smith, like a lot of those 70s Motown groups. And even Apollo, you know, they would often go on SoulTrain. I would hear Don talk about Iris Gordy. What was Iris's role in at least the mid-70s period of Motel?

I think she was more or less in A&R, artist development. I'm still wrestling with the fact that you have 30 I got I got the I got like the Spanish 45 of Saturday like you don't understand what's going on over here

your background of all of all we've been we've been doing this six years now Steve you've totally outdone yourself but it looks like a it looks like a filter but it's not it's actually Steve's 40 copies of the base of the baller I'm sorry I'm I mean

people got to check out this record for real Bruno is my dream interview. I'm still like, right now, it's taking a lot of rent space in my head. I'm going to bring you a copy. I'm going to bring you a copy tomorrow.

Thank you. Steve, is that your Shawshank record? Like, you have to buy it if you're in the thing, like you have to watch Shawshank if it's on. Yeah, this is absolutely.

Okay. This is the record I own the most copies of. It's an obsession. It started with the A-track. I had the A-track of this back in the day. It was like the first cool music I ever heard. Okay. let's let's not it's my first musical memory quest all right let's let's not get into the rabbit

hole all right so i was asking what was iris gordon cordy's role i think so i mean it was you know you got to remember too you know this is in uh i'm i'm not from detroit you know it's a family business and there was a lot of gorty's involved with it and when you come in in my role as sort of a a burgeoning publicist. So I didn't even deal with, I knew who Iris was and I dealt with her very minimally. I mean, I was, they had a very structured class system at Motown. So how was it, what was the modus operandi at Motown doing that period that you were out there? I've heard stories about how they operate in Detroit and, you know, they all use their IDs and took meticulous notes as far as like union scales and all those things but what was your experience there um and

what was the everyday operations like well my my primary job was to serve as a writer and a publicist for a lot of those junior you know like at that time uh eddie kendricks um had had left you know um and um david ruffin had left um edwards had left um So there was like three temptations that were all working on solo records. Junior Walker and the All Star, Dynamic Superiors, Thelma Houston. You work with the Dynamic Superiors? Yeah. Dog, man.

I did their publicity. And I got all those second tier guys. But at the same time, I worked with, you know, I got a chance to work with Stevie Wonder. And I got the chance to see. the campaigns for like Diana Ross and the four tops and Marvin and you know so it was just I mean to be able to get to have that access not to them I wasn't out there partying with them or whatever but just to have the access to see how they were treated compared to the dynamic superiors or junior Walker and the all stars and all those guys were frustrated I mean Eddie Kendrick's used to just

yell at me and just say, hey, you know, I'd say, Eddie, look, I'm not in charge, bro. Take it out on you. Yeah, do you want to do the interview or not? If you don't want to do it, it's cool, you know, I'll try something else, you know, but they were all frustrated because there was such a, you know, Barry had a really, it was like a university, but it was also like very competitive and he hand-selected who's going to be famous. Leon Ware, for example, I work with Leon Ware. Leon Ware gave Marvin Gay, I want you. That whole album. And it broke him as an artist.

You know, he told me that. You know, personally that that record, that record was meant for him and Barry told him that, hey, look, I can release this record on you and I don't know how much is how well it's going to do. But if you give this record to Marvin, you're going to make tons of money. And he did. He gave the record. Yeah. So he put people in different situations like that, you know.

Maybe 12 years ago, I saw. an EPK for songs in the Key of Life in which I mean they did this thing where they like rented out this ranch and invited all these people from the press and whatnot and it's literally like they documented the press hearing songs in the key of life for the first time and you know faces on them and everything and you're literally watching I mean they edited it nicely but right I'm I remember Stevie came in with a weird cowboy hat on, like they were like on a ranch or whatever. But just in general, how, you know, was there much strategy behind how Motown operated at least as on the publicity side of things, on how they operated and handled things or was it just generally? No, it was very structured and very restraining.

For example, Bob Jones allowed to pitch any of the major white magazines. Say what? Bob Jones, who had been there for like, I don't know, when I got there, he'd already been there for 10 years or something. He wasn't allowed to speak to Newsweek, time, life,

all the biggest entertainment magazines. There was a guy named Mike Roskin, who was the vice chairman of the company, and he took control of all the major big artist. And he personally pits those people. So me as the lowly publicist that just came in, I was assigned to only deal with black press. You know,

so I dealt with, you know, Marie Moore from the Amsterdam News, Gertrude Gibson from the L.A. Sentinel, you know, all of Earl, Earl Callaway from Chicago Defender. And yeah, and all those people. Yeah, all those people. All the local folks.

I love it. My go-to guys. The Baltimore's son. Yeah, Baltimore's son, all those things. And I used to write what they call canned features. And they would use them verbatim and just put their name on it. But I didn't care because I wasn't getting paid any extra money. You know, but because a lot of the black newspapers and magazines didn't have enough money to, for staff.

You know, they're very limited in staff. So, but I dealt with Regina Jones and Steve Ivory and. Steve Ivory. legendary Steve Iver. Yeah. So all those guys were, you know, my go-to people. But, you know, I thought like for a young guy, I said, I need to do something more than just do Black Press.

They really make a name for myself. And so I decided without asking anyone, at the time, the Commodores were just starting to break. Right. They had their first hit single. I forgot what it was. It was before Machine Gun, but it was off their first album. Right.

And they were starting to gain some traction. And so I decided I was going to call it. Newsweek and pits them to do a story on the Commodores. And so I called a guy and he says, I forgot what his name was. And he said, well, who are you? And I said, well, my name is Ramon Hervey and I'm a publicist at Motown. See, yeah, but I don't, I don't deal. I don't normally deal with anyone at Motown except for Mike Roskin. Right. And I said, oh, okay, well, you know, well, I'm calling you. Are you interested in, you know, possibly doing a story, whatever. He goes, well, let me, let me get back to you on it. So he immediately calls

Mike Roskin and he says, hey, some kid calls me today and I thought we had a deal, you know, blah, blah. So then I go into Bob Jones calls me in his office. He says, what the hell are you doing, man? You called Newsweek? I don't even, I can't even call Newsweek. You're in trouble. I don't even know if I can keep you, if you're going to keep your job. Oh, shit. He goes, Roskin wants to meet with you. So I had to go up to Roskin and, you know, I mean, he was kind of cool. He just said, hey, well, we have a, we have some policies here and some regulations that you need to follow if you're going to work here. And I said, okay, well, you know, nobody told me I wasn't allowed to talk to other media. He goes, well, yeah, there are certain things that we do here and you're not allowed to talk to these people.

That's what I do. And I said, okay, well, I stand correct. You know, thanks for the heads up. And, you know, they didn't fire me. But I realized then I got to get out of here because if I can't have that, you know, any latitude to grow, then, and you know, Bob Jones wasn't going to give up his job. Right. So I just said, I got to find another outlet. So you're saying that for entry artists at Motown and non-A list frontline artists, i.e. Diana, Stevie, there was a limit to where you could go.

And I guess for you, the limit was maybe jet or possibly Ebony or I don't know if Ebony was considered. Jet were jet and I don't think I was allowed to pitch Ebony. I was allowed to speak to Jack for sure because I knew Bob Johnson and Silvey Flanagan and they were always trying to get money. And I was said, Bob, I don't do advertising. I do put you know, there's other people at the company that you need to talk to to you to get advertising. But he was always saying, well, if we do a story, can we get some ads? And, you know, I was just going to ask, how does that work with a group like the Commodores in which, you know, there's clearly a point where like in 75 they were a black act? And then come 77 when that self-titled record came out with, you know, easy and brickhouse on it, when they suddenly became like triple platinum in there.

And thank God it's Friday. and Lionel's about to, you know, spread his wings, then suddenly they only deal with the top tier, the guy above Bob Jones, which is... Yeah, pretty much shifts like that. And you see how they, the hierarchy, like, but, you know, one of the highlights of my time at Motown was I got to work with Stevie Wonder on Songs of the Key of Life. Okay. And I was in the marketing meeting that only someone of his leverage and clout could,

even demand. So he called a meeting and he wanted everybody from all the divisions to come in so that they could tell him what they're going to do for the play or songs of the key life. And you know, that, that only, you know, probably him, Marvin, Diana, probably did temptations, the four tops, like those, the Jackson Five, those groups could probably command that. Their managers could command that. But all those other guys, they would never get an opportunity to meet with the whole staff of the label. And one of the first things that Stevie said, and I mean, I was, I was so hyped because I hadn't met him yet and just meeting with him and especially that album, I think of that album is probably the, you know, the pinnacle of his career. And one of the first things he said

is, okay, so just to set the tone for this meeting, I want to, I would like to request, I want a Billboard in Times Square that's so big and so bright that even I can see it. He had that kind of charisma, but he was dead serious. And just the way that he commanded the meeting, and I was so thrilled. I just, I've remembered that line forever. I've even asked him a couple of times over the years, because I've had a great friendship with Stevie since that day. When I did R&B Live and stuff, he came and performed.

And I just really have so much respect for him. him as an artist, everything he's done with, you know, the Martin Luther King holiday. He's just had such an incredible career. But that was a great experience. And then one of the problems with that album that a lot of people don't realize is it had a 24-page leaflet, songbook inside. And when you add the shrink, when you shrink-wrap that with a double album and then you have this 24-page, there were stories breaking in the news that there was more returns on

that album because of the warpage. Yeah. And so I did some research on it to find out what was the percentage of warpage that comes with every album. And I found out that the percentage is, I was like under 10%, around under 10% of all the albums being released in those days, there would be a warpage issue and returns based on warpage. And so I talked to that.

this guy in manufacturing to get his figures. And then I was able to get a story in Billboard to say that the information was misinformed and that the percentage of warpage for Stevie's album was not as great. There was on par with the same amount of warpedage for any album. And it was so I turned around the, you know, the negative. And then I got in trouble for that too because they, Hale was this elderly black women. She was the head of manufacturing, and she called me into her office and got pissed off

that one, I went to a lower person in her to get information, and I didn't clear it with her. So there was all these kind of departmental things that I just, you know, no, there wasn't a guidebook. They don't give you like a, you can't talk to this person. Can't do this, can't do that. You just got to find your way, you know. Polytrics. Trilitarics. Yeah.

Territorial. Okay, I want to move on past Motown, but since you're already there, I got to know this. Why did Motown never use a consistent manufacturer? Like, one of the weirdest things about Motown to me was, you know, like, okay, for with Steve, with his 90 Bay City rollers back there. Yes, I'm here. I have a large record collection myself in which I've purchased maybe, you know, maybe I have 10 copies of songs in The Key of Life.

But my question is that I know that obviously Motown had to use various pressing plants, independent pressing plants across the United States in the world, because the ink, like the fonts of the ink for, you know, if you brought the album down south in Georgia somewhere, is different than if you brought it in New York and different if you brought in L.A. And I just never understood why a label of Motown's

magnitude never just had one consistent pressing plant. Was Motown basically still an independent label even though they were the biggest black label? Yeah, that was, you know,

Barry thought, I think he believed that he had more power, more influence as an independent label than he would if he cut a distribution deal. He would make more money. He was willing to take those risks that you're talking about of working with all these independent one-stops and manufacturing centers around. And he couldn't compete. I think there was an issue of these bigger companies, you know, taking a big piece of

independent companies and being able to offer a record. her stores and stuff, a bigger piece of the pie. It was very difficult for him and to stay independent. He wasn't the only one that was trying to do it, but it was very, very difficult. But I think that it was a numbers games to him, you know, at the time that he felt, you know, that he was going to win bigger by staying independent than doing a distribution deal with someone. And what was the logic and the reason for why Motel never read? registered with the RIAA. Like every television appearance I would hear like,

and the Jackson sold, you know, uh, seven million units of I'll be there. Like it would just be like these really crazy numbers. So what was like the logic of not joining the recording industry associations of America? And how did that affect? I think it's because he didn't want to be, He didn't want to have to be certified.

He wanted to be able to use his own publicity and say whatever he wanted without being questioned. I mean, you know, that's the only thing that I could think of at the time was he didn't want to have buy on, you know, he could always exaggerate. You know, and all the companies were exaggerating. I mean, you used to, you know, the big thing in those days was to say that a record ship platinum. And, you know, it's not how many records you ship. It's how many you sell. But, you know, a lot of people didn't realize, you know, they'd run these stories. Oh, so-and-so ship platinum, but it returned gold.

You know, so. Right. Did you guys, did you guys know the true numbers? Perpably was a big part of the record business thing. So I think that he was part of, you know, wanting to be able to control the narrative of what his company really represented in the marketplace. Yeah, I was going to say now with streaming, especially in the movie business, Like the one thing I'll never know is how much money my film actually made.

Exactly. Like that's the one thing they won't allow me to do. I can't look at the numbers at all to see if we did 900 million or just one million. Right. Yeah. It's a red tape. It's the red tape of being involved in all. You know, that's the same thing that you've been dealing with with your film.

That's been going on for years in the film business too, where they tell you, oh, well, We didn't recoup. You know, the whole idea is, you know, if you don't have to tell your artist, you don't have to quantify how many records, then you can also tell them that you owe us more money than you owe us. Right. That's what I think that a lot of, why he had so much frustration with a lot of the artists,

because the numbers didn't match what they felt they should be getting. You know, he got a bad rep for, you know, supposedly shortcoming, you know, He's honest. Short selling everybody and not paying them what they were entitled to. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilbert. took conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clivert Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

I'm Anna Sinfield. In this new season of The Girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care.

So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the Girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you. you get your podcast. What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Wadam. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo.

Woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place they come, look for up-and-coming talent. said if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah.

He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be.

Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So what was your next step after Motown? What was your last period at Motown? And what was the next step afterwards? The next step was I got laid off because they were having a really tough winter.

And they were owed a lot of money, you know, in terms of, you know, a lot of people don't realize is there's a when you're an independent company you can't afford to not get paid for like 90 days so they were getting old they were being old a lot of money because a lot of companies just weren't paying them and so they had to lay off a bunch of people and i was one of the people that was laid off and bob jones was kind enough to one he let me write for some other magazines like black star i don't remember you remember black stars black star you remember black stars black stars and sepia yes of them. Yeah, so I wrote for that under a pseudonym, Ray Trish was my name. And he told me I could, you know, he helped to introduce me to. He said, look, I know we know, I can't get you any more money, but, you know,

you could write for some magazines. I'll refer you. So I wrote for a lot of other magazines at the time as a freelancer, but I couldn't use my own name. And he told me that this company name Rogers and Cowan, which is actually a very famous PR company, they were actually the first independent public relations company in Hollywood. When the studios originally started, you know, they controlled everything. You know, they basically employed all the actors and there were no managers and no agents and no publicists. And they were the first company to be an independent publicist where big stars like Nallywood

and Robert Wagner and people of Paul Newman could actually go and have their own publicity. And at this time, there was an emergence of agents like the William Morris's and all those, you know, agents started around the same time. So he told me that Paul Block, this guy, Paul Block, who was the head of music over there, was hiring freelance writers. Right. And he said, you know, we're probably going to hire you back, but this will maybe hold you over. And so that's when I went to to meet with Paul Block to see if he would hire me to do some freelance work and was after work. It was at 7 o'clock. I had a jalopy of a car. I had a dodged dart and I didn't have enough money to, it had no reverse. Say what? What? I had no reverse. I didn't have enough money to fix

it. So I used to drive around to find the right parking space. I couldn't do any valet parking or whatever, and I was drive around Beverly Hills to find a spot where I could drive out. You would have to pull up into a spot. Yeah. But you couldn't even go in head first. You couldn't go head first anywhere because you have to back out. Yeah, exactly. All right.

So, you know, I was waiting to get enough money to fix my reverse. And so I went to Beverly Hills. Their offices were on Bedford and Wilshire. And I went in to meet with Paul. And he was a nice guy, didn't really give. me any guarantee that I would get hired or not. And then I went back to my car kind of a little bit deflated and disappointed and realized that I'd screwed up and I had, I couldn't pull my, you know, somebody had parked in front of

me. So I had to back the car up. And this guy saw me trying to, you know, I was leaning and trying to get, you know, those cars were kind of heavy. So this guy comes up and says, hey, man. comes with your car and I said yeah it's just I guess my it seems like my reverse is not working I'm not really sure I mean I lied right right pretended like I didn't really know what was wrong with my car and he helped me and I finally got out of there and then about two weeks later I got a call from

Paul and he says hey do you want to come in and work on a I have a project that I think I could use you for you come in and I'll tell you what it's for and he says well he said I one of my clients is Paul McCartney. I said, wow, Paul McCartney from the Beatles, Paul McCartney? He goes, yeah, that Paul McCartney. And I said, wow, yeah, yeah, I would love to work on the Beatles. I mean, you know. So what I found out was that Paul had bought the publishing to the Buddy Holly catalog.

So he had owned it, and he was doing a week of, you know, in a special Buddy Holly week in the UK. And he wanted a press kit put together. And so I was, my task was to write all the materials that would go in the press kit for him to use to launch that week. And so that was my first project at Rogers and Cowan. And I didn't talk to Paul, but he approved everything that I did. And they ended up hiring me as a publicist based on my work on Paul McCartney's. And then I ended up being like a day guy on, on,

on Paul's account in LA. And then he had another guy working in New York, but Paul was really the head guy. Okay. I, you know, I, I read Linda McCartney and Lee Eastman, his father-in-law, there was a couple meetings and on phone call and stuff. I didn't really get to know him very well,

but I got a chance to work on his account. And I learned so much. I mean, he had one of the biggest publishing MPL communications. He owned so much publishing. It's just amazing. It was like books of it. And I got to see all. He owned like over a hundred fight songs from all the major colleges across the U.S.

Really? One schools. I mean, it just was unbelievable. Just so many songs. Well, it said that he's the one that taught Michael Jackson about like the power of owning publishing. Yeah. Well, apparently what ended up happening was that he told him that capital had offered you know, to buy, for giving them an opportunity to buy their catalog back.

Right. Yeah, and he was telling Michael, you know, I just couldn't pull my, you know, I couldn't convince myself to pay that much money for songs that we wrote, you know. And so he turned it down. But then Michael went back and told Mike Stewart at Mike Stewart was ahead of publishing at Sony at the time. And Mike Stewart helped him purchase the music. It's Paul's fault, man. He should have always claim your legacy.

Always claim your legacy. Ramon, what's your take on people these days selling their catalogs? And that being a thing that people do these days, do you see it as fortuitous or not? You know, I think it's a great, it's great for these, a lot of artists that are not really relevant, you know, on streaming services and stuff. They're not making a lot of money. But these are companies that their job is to, you know, try to make money off the publishing, off placement and sinking. and all that stuff. So I think it's great. I've seen it. It's amazing that they, you know, I kind of, it's a, it's a further development from when I guess maybe 10 years ago, when Live Nation

and AEG started paying huge amount of money for artist rights, you know, to circumvent agents and, you know, where they, they would, you know, and labels, you know, they wanted to really, monopolize and control and this is just another form of that where you know publishing has always been an annuity for artists if they understood it on that it's something that lasts in perpetuity and so i would always say hang on to it but if someone's going to give you 300 million dollars uh and you're still going to you know make money you know that's a lot of money to turn down spending it now yeah i you know i did that right bill what you do So my publishing.

Did you sell all your publishing? I sold it. So you could pay for the new house? Exactly. All of it? All of it? Like the logic was they did the math for me. And basically,

the way I was going now, I would have gotten the full value of my lifetime work by maybe when I was 77 years old. So I could either. they did the math, like we can even give this all to you right now like what you would make up into 77 years old or we just

pay you off a little bit at a time a little bit at a time. And, you know, the roots are just one of those prestige artists that like selling records was never our thing. And I mean, for the most part, licensing, you know, like.

But you still have to get permission for licensing, correct? Like it's not full out. You sold it and they can just do whatever they want to with it? I mean, we have a very specific arrangement. So, you know, I don't want my shit being used for like the MAGA parades or anything like that. But if I didn't ask, you wouldn't have disclosed that information. I'm like, you don't want people out here thinking the roots music could just be anywhere. No, no, no, no, there's always sort of stipulations like depending on what it is.

I mean, for the most part, yeah, I decided to it's not as big as a Bob Dylan deal or, you know, our McCartney deal, but. But you started in 1987, right, with the roots? Well, I'm technically 87, but we got our deal in 93. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah, it's 30 years for us. Yeah, so you earned the right to do that.

That's what I'm saying. People, you know, who've been in the industry a long time, you know, you guys have been, you know, performing. I've seen you guys perform several times. In fact, we met, I don't even know if you remember, but we met when you were DJ Yeah, with speech. Oh, you remember that? Yeah, totally.

I remember that. I remember you well. You're trying to act like... No, no, I just didn't know if you remember... Under the radar. No, no, I just didn't know if you remember how we met. But, yeah, that was... I absolutely, yeah.

You had the first time when I did a speech's solo, solo situation. Yeah. You start your book at a very curious place. You start with the Richard Pryor story. and that particular chapter in chapter one to me I was very curious about that only because kind of one of the prevalent themes on this show that we often talk about that I'm often curious about is when a creative or an artist sort of subconsciously let you know that they don't want to do this anymore and oftentimes it'll happen, they'll react in ways that will let me know that. And oftentimes, artists will self-sabotage, you know, a good thing. And there's ways to do it. There's, you know, I mean, lightweight stuff like gambling. And, you know, for you, especially as a manager, I know that time management

is also a way that an artist will express their unhappiness with the situation. I'm certain you've dealt with artists that last minute will cancel something. You know, I used to always joke that I always felt the Jackson's made up. I only knew the Jackson's got exhaustion. That's why I like, right. I work with them too. Right. I've never seen the word exhausting you so much whenever it's like a cancel,

Mike or Janet, like, oh, no, exhaustion, okay, whatever. But for you, though, just the amount of fires that you've had to put out with every client that you've had, it's like you're being sent out into the front lines. And you go off on, yes, Lai is holding up. I'm holding up the chapter where he says, A path of self-destruction can sabotage fame. Yeah.

Well, one, I wanted to know why you felt this is. is a very unique interpretation of your life that is that isn't a biography or memoir and as i said at the top of it i feel like this book is important for the future managers or really like to me i think it's important for interns because i know every intern i ever met in 1993 is now a CEO that i work with and it always starts with, hey, you don't remember it, but you came to my college back to dinner, back when I was an intern. But for you to be at the helm,

especially like with the way you started that Richard Pryor chapter in your book, why would you want to subject yourself to that level of torture? And not saying it's all bad, But, you know, like surely you have to be living every day like any moment. I'm going to get a call at 3 a.m. And I got to get, I got to put a fire out. It did come to that, but I didn't, I didn't think that going in. Like I had bright lights and I thought, wow, I'm getting a chance to represent Richard

prior, someone who I really respected, who I knew about, who I was a fan with. You know, he was giving a black kid, you know, young still, you know, by that time I was pretty experienced. But his manager, David Franklin, he made sure that when he, that he wanted, he said, Richard really wants you to do this. And we want to make sure that you're going to be the one to do it. We want you to be responsible. So I thought, wow, this is great, you know, to have a, you know, at that point,

Richard was really, you know, he was one of the top paid black actors in the business. he had been successful as a writer. He had had a lot of success, you know, and so it was like a real feather in my cap to get him as a client, you know. And I was thinking, wow, I can do, you know, there's no limits to what I can do with this guy from a PR standpoint. So that was where my thinking was like, this is going to be a great opportunity. I'm going to make him even a bigger star than he already is.

And then when I got in the trenches, it wasn't quite the opportunities that I thought were there, weren't 100% there because he was, you know, he was very unpredictable. And he was going through a lot of personal issues with his drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. And you mentioned at 3 o'clock, you know, the first time that that happened, And he had agreed the headline for the Brotherhood Black Crusade, which was a very well-known organization, fundraising organization, community organization in Los Angeles. And the guy named Danny Bakewell was the founder of it and still has kept the organization going. But Richard called and at that time it was his wife, Jennifer, they called me at 3 o'clock in the morning. and they're kind of giggling.

I can kind of tell their high and stuff. And they tell me that Richard wants to, Richard wants to cancel his performance. It was like early Saturday morning, and the show wasn't until they, he wasn't even go on until like 9-20 the next night. Right. So he says, well, you know,

we went to the doctors and he has gastrointrinitis. I didn't even know what gastrointinitis was. So I had to look it up and I said, well, we have a stomachache, you know. know, basically, that's a fancy word for stomachache, you know, medical terms. I said, well, you know, why don't you guys go to sleep and let's just re, you know, reconnect in the morning, you know, get a good night's sleep. I can call you around 11 and then we'll decide what we should do. I mean, you know, you don't have to go on until 9 o'clock. Maybe your

stomach will be better better by then. And I said, also, I really don't want to, you know, he wanted me to make an announcement. And I said, that thing, there's no place. I can go, you know, at that point, there was no social media or whatever like that. And the only way I could break a story like that was I could go to AP Associated Press. And I said, I don't want to do that. And I wanted to wait and talk to Danny Bakewell to see what he thought, what would work best for him. I did end up talking to Danny in the morning. And I convinced Richard that I would create a statement to be read and that we wouldn't

announce it nationally as a national thing. We just announced it at the venue because a lot of people do, you know, it was just a charity event and not everybody needed to know that he was canceling it. Right. Except for the people that were in there. And he also agreed to donate $10,000 to the Brotherhood Crusade. So I said, so Danny was fine with that. So I went there that night, you know, and I had prepared the statement with the idea that Danny Bakewell would read the statement. to the audience and also tell them. So when I got there, I hadn't met Danny, I'd only talked to him on the phone.

So I said, well, Danny, here's the statement that Richard wants you to read. He goes, I'm not reading that. He said, you're here, you're his guy. So you go up there and read it. And it was at the shrine. I said, oh, man, you're kidding me. Like, you don't know, you really?

So I had to go up on stage and tell 5,000 black people who were expecting Richard Park to perform. Right. to and that was really the beginning and it set a pattern of just having to do that all the time you know Richard was just one of those guys he was just unpredictable and I'd come to the office some days and I just never knew what he was going to so you just kind of hope that you know then there's other things that he did do for example the Richard prior live in concert film was my you know was an idea I brought to him that wasn't it wasn't my idea to do the concert but

somebody came to me, a guy by the name of Bill Sargent. Bill Sargent, yeah. I mentioned in the book, he's the guy that offered $50 million for the Beatles to do a reunion tour. Right. And he said, hey, I want to do a live concert. And I said, wow, I think that's a really great idea. I don't know if I can sell it.

But, and, you know, David and Richard gave me their blessings. And I helped to put that whole thing together. So you get those kinds of moments and you think, well, you know, if I can do more of that, that offsets those other times when I'm a, can't. canceling signatory. But you gave, I just wanted to give you your props, at least at the least in the Richard prior chapter, because not only do you account for all these events, but you also give perspective and where Richard came from and kind of telling his story to give, you know,

this kind of 2022, I always say lens of cause and effect, basically, right? Yeah, different, you know, like, you know, Richard did a lot of things. He never got canceled, like what happened with Dave Chappelle and, you know, know, Richard, people just loved him because he was so vulnerable. And he shared, he turned his, his misfortune into comedy in a way that it was, it resonated with people. And they forgave him. They always forgave him of everything. And he, he, you know, as I think you noticed in the book, he created a pattern that was very successful for him in terms of marketing, the way he marketed his fame and his persona. And his comedy, live concert film. You know, there's very rare, you know, as a strategic, you know, crisis manager, whatever, the first thing you say is let's do something and let's move away from. Let's figure out a way to put that in the past.

And he found a way to actually allow that to fuels a lot of his comedy. All right. So I forgot where I read it, but there was a show that he did at the Hollywood Bowl. I remember there's a famous photo where he says, I want you all to kiss my happy black ass or something. He's a little, I think it was like he was doing a benefit. It was like an LGBTQ benefit. You're right.

I was representing Bet Midler then. That Midler story. Yeah. You got that story in here. Yes. So that was a star spangled night for rights. Right. And Beth Midler's manager, Aaron Russo, came up with the idea.

And we, and I really had a big role in that because we met with all these gay, you know, with LGBQ organizations from San Francisco because we donate the money from the concert. And Richard agreed to do it. But I didn't, I didn't represent Richard then. But I literally was on the stage. And I was six feet away from him. And before he went on, and I stayed on the stage because I was such a big fan. I wanted to see him close up.

So I was on the wing of the stage watching that all happened. And he walked right by me. After he did that, he walked off the stage and went straight to his limo and left. I heard it was described. Someone said it was the cabaret version of Altamont. If you know what happened. It was, he freaked out everybody. I mean, he just went.

And you could watch him. as it was, you know, he started off and people were laughing and whatever. And then he just dark and he just, I don't know if he realized there or if he was misled, but he just really turned on the audience. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. Emerald 2, never mess with her friends either. We always say that, trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me?

The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Ego Wadam. My next guest, you know from Step Brothers Anchorman, Saturday Night Live and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. Woo, woo, woo, who, woo. My dad gave me the best advice ever.

I went and had lunch with him one day, And I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just know the groundlings. I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you, which is really sweet. Yeah. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot.

He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be a. inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah. It would not be. Right. It wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck. Listen to Thanks, Dad, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Can you give me an example? Because oftentimes I see that you are thrown in the front line to strategize something or think of a spin or fix this real quick. Can you just in your whole career, like what was the one time where you felt like

whatever spin you had to put on something that, you know, maybe this might engulf you or kind of, you know, you might get drawn into the tornado yourself. Like this is something that you can't handle. I don't know. I've never thought there was something I couldn't handle. So you're not handling this with fear? Because even then, you have to like meet with people. You got to be the bearer of bad news. I'm sorry, my client, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is not going to make it. You know, well, you, you think of some. You learn, you know, you build up a resiliency. Like Richard, Richard prior taught me how to be resilient because he was constantly.

He forced you to be resilient. James too. Rick James was another guy that tested me my, you know, my resolve and my ability to just, you know, because I really, I really admired Rick and thought he had a lot of talent. You know, he was really skilled musician and, but he was just his own worst enemy. But I always wanted him to win and I just trying to come up for ways to help him win because I thought like, you know, I did feel like he had a potential to be bigger than what he was. And it becomes, but I never gave up on that belief. And so that's what fueled my, you know. But isn't it exhausting, but is it not exhausting to, is it not exhausting for you sometimes to have to Jedi mind trick your artist? You know, like I. Yeah, no, it is.

It is. There's times when I don't, I haven't enjoyed being a mop. I'll be honest. I mean, it's not something that I wake up going like, what problem can I fucking fix today, you know? that's not like I don't wake up with that attitude, but I just feel, I just always felt comfortable with the pressure that I felt I would be able to,

if they trusted me that I could help them, we could achieve a collaboration. To me, you know, artists and managers is really, it's a synergy and it's a shared vision. And, you know, it's not like one or the other. We can share a vision of what we hope to accomplish on, that's what you really hope. for but it's not always possible for you in getting to know uh some of your clients do you often

get to the heart of the matter like are they talking at all about like hey maybe i should see like i don't know how prevalent seeing a therapist was to suggest in 1982 right you know now of course you know we throw everyone like therapy in the face and yes mental health is everything in 2022, but back in 1983, 1984, if you sense that an artist is sort of stuck in that place, like what solutions are there that aren't, you know, what's perceived as embarrassing as, oh, maybe I'd need to see somebody, you know, therapy wise? No, I think there was, there was up, there were times when I asked people, you know, have you given any thought to getting some help, you know, seeing if they're

therapist or, you know, to really, do you even think you have a problem? I mean, it seems like you do have a problem, you know. Even with Don Cornelius, you know, he had a brain surgery and it made him unstable. So you were there in 83 when he had his aneurism? Yeah. I wasn't close to him then, but by then, let me think. I'm trying to think when was the first soul train, music awards. 87. Yeah. So he had, yeah, so it was after the, you know, it was shortly after that that I became more,

I started doing PR for him after the brain aneurism. He told me about it. But then when we were doing the Soul Train Awards, and I worked on that show for at least five years or so, I remember him telling me that it made him moody. and sometimes he wasn't he didn't know how he was going to react to certain things and you know you could see it you know actually happen in real time a couple of times different things that he did that I think you know contribute were were influenced by that and I remember asking him once have you thought about going back and getting another surgery done and he said

I have thought about it and I've talked to the doctors, but the reality is they couldn't guarantee him that he would get better. And it also might even be worse. So, you know, these are things that people, you know, I don't think he told everybody that, but that's something I can say he shared with me. And just for him, you know, because he wanted me to understand. And I was trying to understand him.

And we had that kind of friendship. I mean, he wasn't like a total open book with me. Not at all. But there were times when we would sit down and talk for a couple of hours and he would tell me, you know, the different things, this frustration with just black people and black artists that wouldn't support him. And, you know, and I always tried to help with any artists that I was managing or whatever. Like, you know, we got to do the Soul Train Music Awards, you know, because I knew how hard it was, you know, when artists crossed over, a lot of them forgot that, you know, John was the one who put him in a position to be on national television. How long did you work with the Soul Train Awards, the Music Awards?

Up until probably the first five years, I think, or six or seven years, something like that. So you released there for 91, 92? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to debunk a major theory. I have a major theory that I'm afraid to ask you this question. because I think I know the answer but I'm going to ask this question anyway

so let's go February of 1992 this is the infamous Michael Jackson crutches period where if you remember he did remember the time sitting down this is what I think happened and all you have to do is verify if it's true or not all right so based on our MC search story

remember the MC search story where Hammer took it, right, took a hit out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Right. Hammer hit third base story. Right.

And then it wound up in Bob Jones's hands where he had to, they had to manufacture an artist of the decade award for Michael to win so that Michael Concepcion. Okay. So that was the American Music Awards, which of course is a Dick Clark platform. That was also 80. So in February of 92, Dangerous is out. And Michael is being given a lifetime achievement award or whatever, like a made-up award.

And Eddie Murphy and Elizabeth Taylor are presenting it to him. And Michael has crutches on. And, you know, sympathy. This is like right after the Oprah interview and everything. So this is like a brief period where like empathy is really on Michael Jackson's side. and he performs, he's supposed to perform, remember the time,

but, you know, he has to sit in a wheelchair and perform and he can't move, whatever. So he's just basically performing from the top of, you know,

he's just used his shoulders in his neck and whatever. I don't buy that one bit. I believe that that was all. I don't believe that Michael Jackson injured his foot in rehearsals. But I do. I smell only because Michael also had to do Dick Clark's American Music Awards for the same thing. And I know that there's a rivalry between Don and Dick.

So what are you proposing, Amherst? Come on. I'm calling foul. I believe that there was a situation between Don and Dick Clark, American Music Awards and Soul Train Awards, which this is half. Phil McCoy territory. And I think the compromise was made that, okay, I still have to perform my song, but I'll sit in a wheelchair and perform it. Or I don't know. It was a throne, by the way. It wasn't a wheelchair. It was a throne, but he was right. He never got to. I mean, yeah, but all right, can you, am I close to I don't, I remember the video because it was like 12 minutes long. Right.

I don't, the performance doesn't stand out to me, but I just remember that there was a lot of work that went in to get Michael to do the show. And that at that time, you know, Michael had so much clout that he demanded, he put together a video that was 12 minutes long about himself. Yeah. And he submitted it to, if you look back, it was far before. the Grammy's American and Music Awards and his own is real. And the Soul Train Awards had to use that to introduce him. Then that's when after the video plays, then Eddie Murphy comes out.

Right. He made that a mandatory thing that all those major award shows had to do that in order to get him on. And there was always a lot of, there was back and forth if a certain black acts did American bandstand don didn't want him on the show and then the other way around if the big act did soul train first then dick clark wouldn't want him on the show and this went on the whole time that i was really yep it wasn't it wasn't just michael it was a lot of it half the time i became aware of you of course during the situation uh with your ex-wife having been around at the time uh in 1983 88

you were brought aboard, I guess, to sort of handle her press and whatnot. Can you talk about the situation of how you were brought in to handle, obviously, for those that don't know, you know? It's amazing to me how you ushered as her manager, like what would have been a tarnished career, like you managed to turn Vanessa Williams's entire trajectory around and made her way bigger than whatever being a Miss America could have promised her. But how did you get brought into the organization to fix it? There are two really huge misnomer's about that whole situation. Okay. Which I'm going to clarify for you. Yes. That have been part of history and wrongly reported as they're just not authentic.

One was that Vanessa had a career when I met her. She didn't have a career. She was a beauty pageant winner. She won a Miss America pageant. And what made it more significant for her than other pageant winners prior to her was the fact that she was black. So she was the first black Miss America in the 63 year history of the pageant. Right. She was a sophomore in college.

and some woman from the New York state pageant saw her perform in a play and said, wow, you know, you would be great. Have you ever thought of being in a pageant? Her parents were schoolteacher. She had never been, it wasn't a career to be in pageants. Right. And when they told her that if you win Miss America, you get $25,000 in scholarship money, she said, yeah, sure, I'll give it a try. So she ended up winning Miss New York. And then when you win, you audit.

automatically get a bid to compete in the Miss America patent. And so that all happened in six months. And once she won, I was representing an artist, a painter named Phoebe Diesley, who's pretty well known. And she does amazing collages and stuff. And she knew a guy named Dennis Daudel, who was a handler for Vanessa. He was really just a neighbor because her parents were schoolteachers. and because she was the only black Miss America,

they were being besieged by request from black organizations to have Vanessa come and, you know, make appearances, public appearances and such. So they asked for some help. And Dennis was a corporate lawyer for American can, and he said, sure, I'll try to help out. And so he was really, and Vanessa did want to have a career in entertainment business once she finished her reign as Miss America.

And so I, my friend Phoebe, who was a client at the time, said, hey, I wanted to know if I could recommend you to this guy. Do you know who Missed, who Vanessa Williams is? And I said, yeah, yeah, the black girl that won Miss America. Yeah, I know who she is. And he said, well, she wants to go into the entertainment business. And I said, you should talk to Ramon. He'd be great to add to your team. And so I met with Dennis one time.

And he liked me. I would like to introduce you to Vanessa. She's on the road every day right now. And I said, yeah, sure. In fact, I was living in L.A. then. I flew to New York. I had launched with him in New York. And I said, yeah, I'd be happy to meet with her.

And, you know, because for me, just being a beauty pageant winner, even though it was Miss America, I didn't think that was an automatic ticket to being successful in entertainment business. So, but I said, you know, yeah, if you guys are putting together a team, you know, I'd be interested to see what can happen. And then I didn't hear from him. for quite a while and then this was in July probably mid July I heard from him and he told me that he needed my advice on something and so I said yeah sure what do you need and he said well I heard there's some rumors of some pictures of Vanessa and I don't know if they're if it's legit or not and I said well if you don't know if they're legit then don't say anything don't do anything you know I'll see if I can

knows around and find out anything. And then a couple weeks passed, I told him I hadn't found out, I couldn't, I didn't hear any wind of it. And then he said, well, the pictures exist. What should I do? And I said, well, have you seen the pictures? As the pageant seen the pictures, he said, no, I don't know if they have or not. And I, again, told him, you know, don't say anything. If you don't really know what you're up against and there's no way curve what the collateral damage will be. If you go out too soon any kind of crisis, you need to know

what you're up against. And so ultimately, the pageant did see the pictures and this guy Albert Marx, who was the CEO of the pageant and had been for, I don't know, 50 years or whatever, he requested that Vanessa

design didn't demand it. He requested And that's another thing that a lot of people, whenever it's been reported, that she was forced to resign. She wasn't forced to resign. She was requested. And the reason they requested it because he didn't know legally whether they could actually fire her. And he didn't want to go into litigation on it. That's why he never said it.

So he gave her 72 hours to respond. And that's when Dennis called me and said, what should I? I said, well, now we can do something. Now we have, do you want me to control this and tell you guys what to do? Or do you want me just to tell you whatever, whatever you want me to do, I'll try to help out. He goes, no, no, I want you to manage it, take care of it, whatever. So on Friday afternoon in L.A., I was, I was, I had 72 hours, basically, from the time that he had not announced it, which was around 11 o'clock on Friday morning, New York time. My time I found out about it.

it was a little later. And so I said, here's what I think we should do. We should have a press conference in New York. I'll put it together. I don't care what, you know, if she's going to resign, if she doesn't resign, I don't need to know that right now. But I need to put together a photo news alert and get, you know, get a commitment and see if we have enough press people that will come out to the press conference.

And then what we'll do is we'll have one statement. And that's what we're doing. Can I ask, was there not a person like the, the shy see person, that's trying to like blackmail like i have these photos and i want you know 100 000 or nothing like was there none of that grutioni had already uh had the magazine had her picture on the cover that's what we saw he was about to oh so he just he printed it with so he he claimed that he had a model of release so he had been planning this whole thing he had planned it to happen And before she ended her reign as Miss America, he wanted it to happen before the next Miss America

was in, you know, crowned, which was going to be a few weeks away. So there wasn't six weeks left. There wasn't at least a pre-phone call, like how much, how much for me to not destroy your life right now? None of that. No, he connived and planned the whole thing. And how was she this whole time? Like, what were her feelings?

Was she angry? Was she like, well, I hadn't met her. I had never even met her. Wow. So what happened is she ended up confessing to Dennis that she did take the pictures, but she didn't sign a model release. And so that part I knew about before I came involved. But I literally got involved with 70 to two hours. My job was to come with through a solution on how we're going to deal with this announcement.

And I suggested the announcement so that she could go on with her like one time. answer any questions from the press you're going to do a statement i'm going to hand a statement out to all the press i hired a uh an affiliate company in new york a good friend of mine to help me set it up and then that night i took a red eye to new york and on the way this guy came pick me up at the airport at jfk i drove out to nowhere where they live in westchester county and um on the way there uh dennis told me there was going to be a lawsuit i go okay that's a lawsuit huh so we got it so now I'm finding out I'm going to have to deal with lawyers and they're going to have input on what the press statement can be. And when I got to Millwood, there was over 450 media people, like an encampment.

What? Taking over her neighborhood front lawn, cross the street and everything. And that was the first time when you said that did I have fear? I had fear then because I said, wow, this is a much bigger thing than I realized. Because in LA, you know, it wasn't when I was in, I just didn't, even the fact that she won Miss America was not, it was like a one page picture on the front page of the LA Times, but in New York, because she was from New York, she was Miss New York, it was huge. And so all these people were waiting and they didn't even know where she was. She was at home, but they were just waiting to get a glimpse and everything. And so when I went in there, I met the parents and I met Vanessa probably at around. 8 o'clock in the morning. And mostly, you know, then the lawyers showed up. And at that time, everybody wanted to, uh, said that they were going to fight

and they weren't going to let her resign, that they were going to, um, but my feeling was based on the fact that there was only six weeks left before the national cast. And I felt in my heart that the, uh, pageant was not going to support. Yeah, they weren't going to let her, you know, be on that show, for one. And I didn't think that there could be an injunction, you know, whether they could get an injunction or not, they're not going to let her perform any of her services that she was supposed to deliver as Miss America.

So why fight for it? What are you fighting for? You have nothing. The only thing left for you to do is to be on that show and give the other girl the new crown. Yeah. You know, and is that really worth it? Just go on with your life. But I wasn't in charge, you know, I mean, they had lawyers, the parents had input.

So I was, I said, hey, whatever you guys want to do, I'm going to frame this statement to represent Vanessa's voice, you know. And so I worked with Vanessa over the course of that. Within that 72 hours, you know, we bantered about with the lawyers. And at one time, they were saying, well, she can't say this and she can't say that. And say, well, look, guys, if she can't say anything, then let's just cancel the press conference. You guys can do your lawyership and just make a lawyer legalese announcement. And it'll make it like a law release instead of a press release. And I'll be happy to service that for you guys.

And then we changed and we're back and forth. And then ultimately in the book, I explained what everything needed to happen. But she did end up, you know, the world knows that she did end up resigning. But she had the option not to. That's the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize. They didn't force her out, but she decided to do. And I think she did the right thing. Hell yeah.

Two questions. Two minor questions. One, only because I went to school with her. Did she ever have a conversation with Suzette? So Suzette Charles was the runner up. Yeah. And it was just Jersey, but she's really Philly. And I went to school.

Like, she was my sister's best friend. So we all went to the first school. Oh, okay. Wow. You really know her. I definitely I mean I'm sorry I was cheering for Zizette the whole time but you know but that's cool I was a chair for anybody she's African American as well she's black she's a black woman as well so yeah right was there what did they ever have a conversation about this during this time period or no both camps were separate they were both separate and if I would have been Suzanne's manager I

would have told her don't accept it I always now in hindsight I wonder like famous she would have been more famous. Wow. Accepted it because it's like one black woman, like you're going to do this to a black woman and then I'm going to slide in there. And she never, I mean, she was only Miss America for six weeks.

Six weeks. Why would you accept that? Thanks, how to me or said her name. It was like peons, like pennies. And she never got to do after that. I mean,

you know, she's not one of the most, you know, I mean, yeah, Miss Americas are not recognized. But Suzette Charles, it's probably the one of the least recognized because she accepted that.

Well, everybody ain't have a Ramon. So what are you going to do? And I would have said, no, don't. Wrong spin. She would have been all over the news. She could have had her own press conference to say why she didn't accept it. Right.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brain.

brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream. this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of The Girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me?

The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the Girlfriends. Trust me, babe. on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, everyone? I'm Ego Vodom. My next guest, you know from Stepbrothers, Anchorman, Saturday Night Live, and the Big Money Players Network. It's Will Ferrell. My dad gave me the best advice ever. I went and had lunch with them one day, and I was like, and Dad, I think I want to really give this a shot. I don't know what that means, but I just said. know the groundlings, I'm working my way up through, and I know it's a place that come look for up and coming talent. He said, if it was based solely on talent, I wouldn't worry about you,

which is really sweet. He goes, but there's so much luck involved. And he's like, just give it a shot. He goes, but if you ever reach a point where you're banging your head against the wall and it doesn't feel fun anymore, it's okay to quit. If you saw it written down, it would not be an inspiration. It would not be on a calendar of, you know, the cat. Just hang in there. Yeah, it would not be. Right, it wouldn't be that. There's a lot of luck.

Listen to thanks, Dad, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What were your feelings when I guess, I guess 37 years later, they tried to pull a Mia Copa and say, okay, we were wrong and that was tone deaf of us and we want to reinstate you back as Miss America and I assume she declined it but we're even aware that maybe seven eight years ago that that organization actually yeah yeah I wanted to write them wrong about she she called me she asked me what I thought she should do and you told her still no? I said no, why would you go back to them? Yeah, she made them pop. But, you know, she did, I mean, I think that she did it for her parents for her mom. Oh, she ended up doing

it. She ended up supporting them. She didn't actually do what they wanted, but they did reach it. You know, she's, she's held in a different light now than she was. And I say, it's up to you. I wouldn't do it if I were you, but, you know, it's your life. And if that's, if you guys want to, if you want to have peace and you get some benefit out of it, then do it. She's the most famous Miss America of all times, isn't she? I mean, former Miss America of all time. Yeah. Wait. But it took a long time, you know, it took a long time for all that stuff to really, uh, put it behind her. A lot of people say any publicity is good publicity. And I don't know from that school of thought. It took over a decade before she could actually be listed.

by her name only, meaning for 10 years, every time she was in the paper, there was some reference to former new, new pictures, it was like a tag, you know, having a monkey on your back. Only it was in writing. It was like a little, literally like a brand tag, you know, new Miss America forced to resign because of new pictures, some wording. It was always every time, you know, and I said if we could, You know, for me, my biggest goal was if I could just have one person say, just use her name without any reference to the past. And it finally happened a journalist by the name of David Rich, who's a well-known Broadway critic, when she was in Kissett a Spider-Woman. For her review, he was the first one. Really?

That didn't use the reference. And I got a fucking A man. We finally won. We finally got your name. back you know watching the the the initial uh launch of you know her 87 the right of the album and the comfort zone album and how that how you just really managed to to do the impossible which is like anyone associated with miss america it's almost like that would have been a sure shot way to uh almost like career suicide

side, but somehow you managed to make her into a household word and an international star. So could you just describe what the basic strategy was? I continued to be a publicist for a while. So you were just a publicist, never a manager. No, no. I was a manager a much longer time than I was a publicist. I was a publicist for less than six months probably or maybe less than a year. but I was a manager for over 10 years.

But what ended up happening was I didn't want to manage her because I had worked with so many other people who either their mother or their husband or different people in the business who were managed by their mother or their husbands or whatever. And I said, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be an appendage to Vanessa as a manager. And I told her that. And I said, but I'll find you a good manager. I'll help you.

And I tried to find her a good manager. And everybody said, you know, no. And so finally, she did have a woman by the name of Dolores Robinson. It was a pretty well-respected manager in the business. And they didn't work out. And then one day she just said, well, you know, why don't you just manage me? I come to you for everything anyways. I'm not going to do anything without getting your advice.

So why don't you just do it? And I finally, you know, I mean, you don't like to make decisions out of emotional decisions, but I really did it out of love for her because I wanted to see her, you know, wanted her to be happy. And so I finally committed to it and I said, look, I want to do it. But the vision is I don't think I can make you a star in Broadway and motion pictures or TV because there's not a lot of parts for black women. And what we have to do is come up with an identity that people that you can own.

And I think the best way to do that is in the music industry because we can brand you. I can't brand you waiting for the right role to come up. And people know that you can sing you. So what we have to do is create an identity that is not Miss America because you're not really, you don't really represent Miss America. And you don't really represent the pictures. So they were diametrically opposed. So if we can find music and you give me an opportunity to do that,

then I think we can create. And if we fail, then we'll try plan B. But let's try to go the music route and try to brand you and create an identity that you can own. And then we can build. And then hopefully that'll be a caveat and a pathway for you to do film, television, Broadway, and all the other stuff. But then what I didn't realize was that, you know, the stigma of what everything that had happened. I mean, everyone turned me down. You know,

Bob Krasnell, Gerald Busby, you know, I got turned down by like eight labels. Clive Calder, you know, I remember he told me, he said, well, I kind of see Vanessa, you know, this is kind of like a page three, like in the sun in the UK. Like, that's how what people kind of think of her might be. Like maybe she could be a celebrity, but I don't think anybody will ever take her serious as an artist. told me that. She was saying. You know, this is in his office. Me and Vanessa, he said this in front of Vanessa too. And, you know, so I was getting turned down left and right, you know, but Clyde was actually, he sent me a really nice note. And he said, everything you told me you were going to do in that meeting, you did. And I blew it. And I was so happy that he owned up to that,

you know, because I told him, I said, no, I don't want a demo deal. I want a real deal. She will make her a legitimate artist. And the guy who really came to the table was Ed Eckstein. And Ed was calling, called me at that time he had just gotten to deal with wing records to be, you know, to start wing records. And he had one group signed at the time, Tony, Tony, Tony. And so he was just telling me, we were friends. And you say, hey, man, I got this new label. So if you got anybody, you know, please run them by me.

And he knew that, you know, at this point, Vanessa and I had a relationship. relationship, people knew about it and everything. So, you know, at the end of our conversation, I say, hey, I don't have anybody right now, but he said, well, what are you doing with Vanessa? And I said, well, I'm trying to get a damn record deal, but everyone wants to do a demo, and I don't want to get, you know, demo deals are like purgatory, you know, you get a demo deal, then all of a sudden they reject you, then nobody wants to touch you. And I said, I don't want to go that route.

So he just said, well, you know, why don't you come here? Let's do it. And I said, really, are you serious? And he said, yeah, I don't have any money. I don't have any kind of real money, but, you know, I can give you some money. So we barred it a little bit. There wasn't a lot of room. I negotiated a little bit more.

And that's where we started. And so it was the three of us. And, you know, that was the beginning of her musical career. And then the rest is, you know, history. And, you know, I think I did have a big role in that first decade of her career and everything that we, the one thing I was disappointed about was we didn't get a. chance to do a major tour and I thought that that was something that I would have loved for her to dedicate and stay more entrenched in the music industry to really launch a major tour while I was

still at her helm and then our relationship started you know by this time we had three kids and you know I don't regret any of the time that we spent together we were very successful in our run and she's gone on to do really great things I have to ask Have you guys ever forgiven L.A. and Babyface for giving girlfriend away to Pebbles instead of... Yeah, that was a total... That was a total money deal. Like Ed and Vanessa, man, they hated them. I think you read in the book where we ran into...

I ran into L.A. and Babyface at the form club. That was so fucking funny, man. I was cracking up. Yeah, yeah. I never... I didn't have the hate for them. I just didn't like the business... business ethics that they exercise.

And all they had to do was call. It was a money deal. And also, we didn't have, what a lot of people don't realize is we didn't have a contract with them. We were doing a, you know, we were doing a spec deal with them because they brought, we wanted them to write original material and write and produce original material for Vanessa

on her debuted album. And they came with four songs. And we didn't really like most, the three of the songs we didn't feel were right. But girlfriend was one that we thought was interesting. Wasn't really the direction we were thinking, but we said, let's do this song, you know, switch and let Vanessa put her lead vocals on it.

And we'll do it as a spec. And if everything goes well, then we'll commit three songs for the album. So there's a version of girlfriend with her voice on it somewhere in this world. That's what Pebbles heard. Pebbles came to the part. I mean, she does have the strong. stronger voice Vanessa. The Oakwood apartment was where LA and Face came to, and they were just trying to,

you know, they had just left the group deal and they were trying to, you know, they had the whisper song. Right. That was a big hit. Rock steady. Yeah. Rock steady. And so they were just starting off and they were came to, to LA to, you know, mind some business

and make money, you know, try to get some deal, some songwriting. production deals. And so what happened was they were at that place and Pebbles was also starting her first record with MCA. And she came in and heard, I think Vanessa was actually at the place when Pebbles came in. And she heard her voice, a slave of her voice on that track, on girlfriend. And then when Vanessa left, she said to L.A. I want that song. and then Busby got involved and her husband had money. Right. And we heard.

Yeah. So it was a money. It was a money switch. We heard. Because we didn't have a deal. We were on spec. And so when they got the money, they just didn't have the guys to tell us that they were going to go. And also, in all fairness to then, Vanessa was pregnant.

Oh, okay. We were going to have to delay the record. Kissed a 90 singer's death. And Kenny also thought that it was more of an urban track that it wasn't that Devils had a better voice. She had a more urban voice than Vanessa. Yeah, baby said that she was girlfriend. Yeah. Girlfriend.

I can hear a girlfriend. Yeah. That was Kenny. That was Kenny who said, he said that, but he let L.A. kind of take the blame for it. But, no, you know, so, you know, I told him. when I saw them at the forum clip. Look, I don't hate you guys, but you guys should have called, man. That's the only thing.

Just out of courtesy. Just call and say, hey, you know, I understood that you guys did it for money. And her point in your career, that made sense, you know, but you should, all you had to do is call us. So, okay, I'm going to close here because I can nerd out for 12 hours. I do want to know, though, at least for when your daughter, and of course, your daughter's, Jillian, she's lying babe. When she's expressing interest in getting in the biz

and knowing what you know, knowing who you dealt with, all these casting characters that you meet. And there's a lot of heartbreak here, you know, and the clients that you're working with. Like, what advice are you being encouraging?

Like, ah, I wish you would try something else or da-da-da-da-da-da. or like or were you the encouraging dad that's like go ahead follow your dream this is what you want to do yeah no i never gave her any uh discouraging news uh or suggestions about i i didn't throw my history on her in that respect um okay and give her you know the but the dark side of our business with as you know right a lot of darkness in our business um but i did try to uh she was like hands off. First of all, she goes,

Dad, it's not ready for your ears yet. So she was right. So she's very guarded with the. Yeah, she was very guarded. And she told me she was working on one song. And she would play it for me when it was ready. And I said, well, you know, you know, I listen to all kinds of songs. I listen to medley's, you know, just piano or guitar.

You know, just let me hear it. You know, I just like to hear what your direction is. And she goes, no, Dad. I'm not, I'm not ready to play it for yet. I said, okay. So she did end up coming to me with Treat Me Like Fire. And finally, when there was a rough demo of it that she was happy with, at least to let me listen to, I made some suggestions on it. But she and Lucas pretty much formulated all their own imaging and everything.

I didn't have any input or anything. I just kind of let them do what they wanted to do. And I remember seeing the video when she had all that hair. I'd never seen so much hair. She always had wild hair. but this was like, you know, this was like hair on steroids. Right, yeah. That's our first met her.

I was like, wait, who's this person? And she's like, oh, okay. How did you get all that hair? That's like the most, you know, so. But, you know, what ended up happening was because I was her father, everyone thought I managed her. And so when that single, when they put the single item on SoundCloud, I mean, it was just like an immediate response, like a visceral response

and everybody fell in love with the track. And so I was getting all these. calls from labels and lawyers and managers and say Ramon man are you managing your daughter uh what's going on what's going on you know i said no no i'm not i'm just her dad you know i can uh i can pass on the information to her must have felt good though i'm just her dad yeah what ended up happening i said i will help you i don't want to manage you you know forever but you guys need help and i'd like to offer my services to, you know, set you a sale. Nice.

I never wanted to wake up. And, you know, because I had managed their mother, I said this whole idea of managing my daughter and waking up one day and saying, Dad, I love you, but you're fired. I'm not going to be around for that. So I just said, I'm going to help you. And that's what I did. I helped them. I helped them get a manager.

I flew to London. And they ended up signing to outsiders. a small label that was distributed by Polydor, UK, and Amanda Ghost. Do you ever run or meet Amanda Ghost? I've not met Amanda Ghost, no. Okay, so she was a successful songwriter. She was on, she was a president of epic records for about six months or so. Okay.

She was on American Idol as a judge for a minute. Okay, okay. So she had some, you know, some traction in the music industry. And she fell in love with the group. And so I helped to negotiate that deal. I set them up with an attorney. And then I went over to London to help them since she was going to be signed to, they were going to be signed to a London-based label.

I said, you guys should get a London-based manager as well who has, you know, tentacles in the U.S. market because you've got to still release the record here in the U.S. And I wanted them to know that. I was going to be out of the picture. I didn't want a manager thinking that I was going to be second guessing everything that they did. And so I met with everyone. I said, look, you know, my role, once, if they decide to go with you, I'm out. I'm just a regular dad. You don't have to answer to me. You don't have to copy me and anything. Your relationship will be with Lucas and Julian, not me. Wow. And I just felt that that was my responsibility to give them clear sailing, you know,

and to let them manifest their career however they saw. And so that was- Good parenting. That's the role that I do. Very good parenting. I want to thank you for doing this for us. Again. Oh, thank Deanna too.

I want to thank Deanna. Thank you, Deanna. Yes, Deanna. She's your godmother, right? Yes, sir. Just to let our views know, yes, I feel like it's imperative reading. The Fame Game, an Insiders Playbook on earning your 15 minutes.

Um, Harper Collins. Shout out to Harper Collins, but yes, I think it's required reading. Yes, I have notes. I have written notes inside. That's how good it is. Yeah, it's a really good journey into and it makes me think twice about working with any artist ever again. So. On behalf of Sir Bill, I'm calling you now, Sir Bill. I'll take it. Royal. Royal Bill and Mr. Bay City Rollers down here, Sugar Steve. this is a Saturday now ah here you go man I didn't even I mean they had to I I went at several of their big concerts back in the day when they performed one was at a

race track I mean they were getting you know run over by a woman were chasing them but I've never seen anything like that that's amazing man no yes it's even a lot for me anyway We have a Bill and Steve and Fon Ticolo and Laia. We thank you very much. Yes. Thank you all. Thank you all. I really had fun.

This was really great. And I really appreciate your support. And, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you very much. Much Love Supreme is a production of Iheart and Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio, visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok. Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target.

He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest.

The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galko, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make, to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the podcast on the game.

Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slice of Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.