The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Sam Hollander

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

This episode of QLS is a special one-on-one between Team Supreme co-host Unpaid Bill and top songwriter and producer Sam Hollander. Sam, who made hits alongside Metro Station, Fitz and the Tantrums, Panic! At The Disco, and Gym Class Heroes, emphasizes his bumpy career journey. This trajectory includes dropping out of college, a record deal at a famed Rap label, and purposeful collaborations with Carole King and The O'Jays. Sam peppers humor and self-deprecation into a story that offers hope for any impassioned creative. Hollander's book, 21-Hit Wonder: Flopping My Way to the Top of the Charts, chronicles this experience. This episode took place at Renaissance Recording with engineering by Isaiah Abolin.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme. I am not Questlove or Supreme. But it is an honor to be here. Today is a special day. We are doing one-on-ones, I suppose.

No team Supreme, just me, unpaid bill. And we can get into why I've called Unpaid Bill if you like, because it's just me, so I have a lot of time to talk about myself. In other news, today's guest is, I will say, one of the most interesting, enigmatic, incredible people I have ever met in my life. And we have only known each other for, like, what, like a year and a half, maybe? Let's just go with it. Okay.

I had this whole big intro plan, but I think we should just get into it. Today's guest is songwriter, producer, composer, top liner, father, husband, and all-around, incredible human being, Sam Hollander. Yay. Roll call. Okay, here we go. Your name is Sam. My name is Sam.

So, Sam, I suppose you've listened to a few Quest Love Supremes over time. Couple. Okay. You know, when they asked me to do a one-on-one, the first person I thought it was you, because people don't necessarily, I mean, you did write a book about yourself, which was a nice touch. I thought so. Just, you know, so people would know who you are. But you are responsible for so many things that I don't think the majority of listeners may or may not know.

And so I thought we could get into them all. And I think my favorite way to start all Quest Love Supremes, which is the most of it is where we born. Well, let me just start off by saying it is an honor to be Quest Love Supreme. I know you're looking for mid-season summer replacements. And I feel like I'm sort of like Stephen Botchko's 1990 cop rock, right? Where, you know, it was highly heralded and then forgettable. And that's sort of the story of my life. So I was born in New York City, Bill.

I was born in New York City. And this was some of the darker times in the city. It was a very violent place. And my parents ushered me out of here to Westchester County and eventually through lots of stops and starts. I ended up in Bedford Hills, New York, site of the Bedford Hills Correctional Women's Correctional Prison. You might remember Gene Harris, who murdered the Scarsdale Diet Doctor. She would have been one of the many... I would. I would remember that.

Do they call them tenants? What it would be? Inmates? Inmates. I like tenants better. Tenants is better. So Bedford Hills attended Fox Lane High School. You might know it from Dukes of Hazards.

John Schneider. Bo Duke was in fact a Fox Lainer as well as Susan Day from the Partridge family. Kimia Dawson, Moldy Peaches. Marissa Winneker. The list goes on and on. Are you here to speak on behalf of Fox Lane School? It's like a recruiting trip. It's what I'm here for.

That's what I'm doing. Sam, what is your first musical memory as a child? Because you have, for those who don't know, Sam wrote a book. And I highly recommend reading the book for two reasons. It's a salacious tell-all? It is a salacious tell-all from a very salacious life-led. No, the best part about your book, in my personal humble opinion, is not only that you have an incredible story and it's almost impossible to believe any of it, to be honest. But there's parts in it, and this is important.

There are parts in it that any producer, anyone interested in music, any engineer or mixer or anybody who even wants to be anywhere near music and needs a piece of advice, an unsolicited piece of advice, and not like in a dickhead way. Like in a, I've lived this life and I'm going to tell you about it and how to get there. There are what you call, what does it call in the book? The footnotes? Yeah, the footnotes. And there's other things you put in the- Oh, a bonus cuts. Bonus cuts.

All the bonus cuts are these parts, these random paragraphs in the book. where it's just pieces of advice. Like, some of them are go-to events that ASCAP or BMI sponsor and meet people. And I think there's a lot of, a lot of the book is about networking and talking to people. And what I like to call the other side of our job, which is like... The bullshit. Well, you can be the greatest writer or the greatest musician of all time. If you're a dick and no one wants to hang out with you, then no one's going to hire you to do anything.

I learned something pretty early on, right? So, I mean, I'll get back to earliest musical memory, but I did learn something. early on. When I started to have any morsel of success, Jonathan Daniel, who owns Crush Management, is one of my best friends and really my mentor in many ways. One day I was melting down about something

and I can get kind of fiery. And he took me for a walk and he put it in such succinct terms. He said, you know, everybody likes happy, Sam. Nobody likes angry Sam. And I walked away from that and it was

like a Yoda moment, you know? And And it dawned on me. Likeability is something. And I never really took stock in it. You know, I'm genuinely curious about people. I like people. I'm pretty social. And I root for people.

And I think I always have to some extent. And, you know, in the music business, that's something they don't tell you. It's important is be curious about other people. And cheer for their victories even when you're losing. because there will be a moment where the tables turn and you will have your moment. And when you finally sort of actualize whatever it is that you're chasing,

it's just such an incredible feeling to know that people are actually rooting for you and not shooting darts at you. So that was my little sidebar. Let me get back to the genesis of it. The first song I ever heard was Magic by Pilot, which I believe is the Ozempic song now.

But before, before it was ushering an error of weight loss. It was the first song I ever heard. I think my brother had the 45 and you know I was completely hooked and I took guitar lessons. I started guitar lessons at 7

with a woman who was in the fast folk movement in Granch Village and she was really rad. I took guitar for a few years and I quit and then I'd do it again and I'd quit and even today I have like five chords at my disposal. I think it doesn't really work with my ADHD. My hyperfocus doesn't exist outside of lyrically. So it's very hard for me, but I do fumble with it and I use it in the writing process, as we'll discuss. But, you know,

the magic song was interesting because that was this weird gateway drug to KTel records. And I got really into KTel records, which for those of you who are too young to appreciate, sort of were the equivalent of the now that's what they call music series or any sort of compilation of current hits. But in the 70s, when I was this little kid, very tiny, these KTel records, they would mix genres sometimes. So you'd have pop hits that would, and it would be soul songs, disco songs, rock songs on the same record.

And that's how I first heard music, and that's still how I hear music. So I've never really been genre specific. I always hear it as like this weird amorphous, just grouping of genres and sounds, you know? And so that was it for me. I also became a huge fan of the notion of a three-minute song. And that's my attention span,

which is why I don't make jam band records. You know what I mean? So I have... It's entirely true. We'll get to that, though. Well, we'll get there. But, yeah, I have three minutes of my disposal, and that's where my attention wears off.

So, you know, I was just exposed to so many different, quote-unquote, genres at a young age, and I loved all of it. And I always envisioned songs dressed up in any fashion. I never really... So when I heard a disco record, It wasn't the notion of the fore on the floor and the sort of a pounding beat. It was just the song and the structure and stuff like that that I fell in love with. And I've taken that into everything I've done since.

It doesn't matter what the assignment is or who I'm working with. I just strip all the noise and anything extraneous about it. And I just take it primally to what is the basic song in the smallest shape. And then we figure out how to dress it up. And that comes from just being exposed to tons and tons of genres very young. So your family is interesting. story and we don't have to go too deep into it but I I'm very interested they like me I know well you're already ahead of the game I'm interested in in musical families a lot of the families or a lot of

people we talked to in this line of work grew up in churches which we clearly did not and uh or like come from families with where music is a big thing I know you quote your brother as like you know turning you on to music I was just telling before about how my sister doesn't even listen to music I know your parents were hippies and da da da da da my parents but like I don't want to be before hippies they were rad, man. They were a generation before that, but they were incredible artists. But go ahead, yeah, sorry. And like, my parents are doctors, and my dad likes smooth jazz,

and my mom likes Mandy Patinkin, which is also fitting. But moving on. It's also kind of awesome. That part of it is great. I'm not going to lie it. And Yo-Yo Ma, those are her two fixtures. But talk to me about how your family and how your brother's record collection, I believe, affected your overall. Yeah,

you know, I owe a lot of it to my brother. You know, my brother, you When we grew up, he was listening to a lot of 70s stuff, and he was listening to a lot of Southern Rock and all this shit kicker kind of car. He had the Z-28, and he used to cruise around, listen to Molly Hatchet and stuff like that. And I was listening to tons of disco, so I was on the other end of the coin. You know, I wasn't a kiss kid as much as I was a BG's kid. So, you know, I was bullied a lot.

But what was funny about my brothers, though, my brother went off to college. He went to Boston University. In his first semester, he became friends, I believe, with a radio DJ who lived on his floor at the university station. My brother came back with crates of vinyl, crates. And it was all this early new wave, like the two-tone sky stuff, chronic town, I believe murmur. So it's going to be 83 murmur, all the R&M stuff, obviously the Smith stuff. He came back with just this incredible knowledge of this music that didn't exist in the sober. where I was, you know, certainly not in sixth grade or seventh grade.

And when he came in and I was exposed to it, my head fucking exploded. It was just this whole other, it was like a revolution of sound because I, you know, at that point, I was listening to The Beatles and I was listening to The Who and a lot of disco. And then suddenly I'm exposed to this entire weird cultural clash of stuff. At the same time, hip-hop was beginning to happen. And, you know, I had friends who were really interested. rapper's delight, and, you know, we got into all the Sugar Hill stuff early on. So we would buy all those 12s. We'd go to stores and just get all the 12 inches of anything that came out on,

you know, sugar, on Prelude or Tommy Boy or, you know, a sleeping bag and fresh. And we would bring back all these records. So between the new wave and the hip-hop stuff, you know, I began to really have a taste level for the first time of my life where I was really like, I felt like I was early on stuff as opposed to just listen to classic rock and stuff. So I was, so I my brother immensely for that. My mom was badass because my mom was like this jazz head, you know. So my mom was just a mingus and all this cool stuff and Chick-Korean and stuff like that. And then my dad was really into Brazilian stuff. There's a lot of Stanguettes and with Gilberto Jil, Esther Gibberto, all that stuff. And I was exposed to tons of stuff. There's lots of sounds in our house.

I mean, I had the mom who was listening to talking. heads and was listening to what was the record that she really she dug it's going to hit me again and it wasn't the water boys but it was one of these Scottish things and she was just really cool and so it's funny because I think I was the least

cool of anybody in my house but everybody who's listened to really cool stuff and I just you know I was like a sieve I absorbed anything around me and I just was trying to at all costs just sort of learn from all of it and combine it and

that was the most, that's what I looked back on growing up. I remember, you know, I had two turntables. I had two techniques at a Gemini mixer, and that was pretty terrible, but I loved mixing genres, you know? So I took the instrumental from Brass Monkey, you know, the Beastie Boys, and then I put the Bob O'Reilly arpeggiated synth behind her, something like that. Like, I'd mess around with different genres, different sounds, and then I learned about Rick Rubin from Village Voice article.

And Village Voice wrote this piece. He's the king of rock. There is none higher. Sucker em, C. He should call him Sire, something like that. It was a village voice, and it was my senior year in high school. And I'm like this colossal fuck up. I'm graduating at the bottom of my grade.

I'm DJing at parties. I'm singing in a band doing like Husker Do, which is crazy. You know, do Husker Do Do Hoosker Do covers just screaming into the mic. And I'm lost. I have no idea who I am, but I know I'm a music kid. And I'm really trying to figure out. I'm writing all this weird beat poetry stuff. and I read the Rick Rubin article

and it was about a suburban kid from Long Island who had gone into the Weinstein dorms at NYU and started a label and he basically took what he knew from rock and he'd brought it into the dorm and hooked up with hip hop cats and was doing the Tila Rock stuff and I was so blown away by it

my head exploded because I thought wow this is me I'm one of these multi-genre quote unquote guys I listen to everything and I sort of have an idea of why the hip-hop pop stuff, like why it's resonating, at least with my friends and stuff. And at the same time, I'm a rock kid. So that's why that sort of was like that lightning bolt. You know what I mean? Like that was the moment where I thought, wow, like there's a, there's a precedent. And I didn't think I could, I really never wanted to be a producer to the other Rick Rubin variety. I really

wanted to be more of a topliner. I want to write lyric and melody. But B, just exposed the notion that you could get into this from out of nowhere. I didn't understand it. There was no manual. That's why I wrote a book. There was no manual. Like coming up, now you can watch YouTube tutorials on anything.

But we grew up, like trying to become like a professional songwriter. There's nothing about that. You just had to sort of learn, you know, on the mean streets of Hell's Kitchen. Sorry. But like talk to me about your career

and also generally the way you talk about music is like in this totally genreless thing. I feel like as a person who writes, music too. I get pigeonholed into certain things all the time. It's like, well, you're the Sesame Street guy, which by the way, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But it's a very sexy calling car. I mean, that's how I got you. I know. Here we are. It worked. It did. Fuck he had it. Anyway, anyway, but I, I, you know, or like you work on a theater thing in my line of work. It's like, you're the music theater guy. And I, I feel like you don't live there. Or you have, is it that?

It's intentional. Right. But like, how, how have you done that? Well, because I had the luxury when I came up, you know, after attending three colleges and two semesters. You crushed education. Obviously, you can tell. You tell. I'm so well-spoken. I'm so verbally dexterous. You just tell all the skills that I have. You know, when I moved to the city, I was living in the East Village, and I started

hanging at a bar called Nightingales, which was on 12th and 2nd, and it was a place you didn't need an ID. The best place. And I started hanging out there as 18 with my friend Jake Miller, who was this incredible singer-songwriter. He had a band called Xenix 25. He passed away a long time ago. He's a beautiful soul. And Jake and I started hanging out this bar.

And there was this scene of like, you know, sort of jam bandy kind of crunchy. I don't know how you describe it, but like sort of greasy sort of cool bands of the era that were beginning to pop out of there. There was blues traveler. There was spin doctors. There was Milo Z. And I started hanging around this scene. And although musically, some of it wasn't my thing, I began to notice how instantly the industry swooped in,

signed all the bands, and then these bands were immediately pigeonholed into that thing, right? And Blues Traveler have gone on and had incredible careers and their dear friends, and they've transcended it. But I think a lot of these bands got bunched into a scene, and I was 21, and I could tell that they were already labeled. you know i didn't listen to hair band stuff in high school you know that was sort of a that was my big rebellion i didn't listen to hair bands right but what i realized about hair bands is you know the hair

band thing was a scene and it was probably the most magical time ever for a lot of people and then you know grunge comes and it's eradicated and i think a lot of people who were connected to it had a hard time getting footing and that was always my biggest fear is i love this so much i just never wanted to get to a point where I was completely intertwined with a moment in time and it was over. Hard to avoid, but I've consciously always taken steps in the process to go after things that are out of character outside of the box in terms of what people think I can do. So I'm hard to label, you know, when Panic of the Disco happened and High Hopes was this massive Worldwide number one, the next record I took was the OJ's farewell record.

And a lot of people don't do that. And, you know. But you did it on purpose, I think it's the point. It's very intentional. Because you didn't want to, my guess is, if we're going to go, okay, to the High Hobes business is the minute after you wrote High Hopes, 10 different similar-ish pop rock outfits called you and we're like, we want the next High Hopes. And you said, no?

Or you said, I'm doing the OJ's record, which is a hilarious sentence to other. Well, I can be bought, Bill. Let's not lie. So I probably attempted versions of it. But what I would say is when you have a moment and you're like in the songwriting, Zykeyes for a second in time, and I've had waves where I've sort of been deeply in the mix in times where I'm an afterthought, the one thing I would say is it's just, it's strategy. And I think a lot of writers are probably less strategic to some extent because maybe

they're less calculated humans than I am. They're probably better people. But what I'm going for is I just, I'm trying. I look at music as this entire sort of weird canvas that's in front of me, and I'm trying to paint corners of it. And always, I want to be able to look at it and think I sort of, I hit everything I thought I was capable of. And you know what?

I'm not gamble and huff. But man, I lived for those records as a kid, and I studied them. And I wanted one shot to do what I would do with the OJs. And I thought that would be, to me, that's cooler than working with any band that wanted, like, you know, a facsimile of what I've already done. do you look at this like work does this feel like do you because people ask me this a lot like they think that i i you know you write songs for people and kids and enjoyment and it's creative and all creative pursuits i think to some people are sort of just shrouded in like happy and joy it's all great

whatever i but like it's a fuck ton of work do you how do you look like i know we've talked we've talked about this like it's puzzles to your routine they're puzzles everything is a puzzle and i'm trying to crack the code on a puzzle and i have like i do treat it like sport like a professional athlete in terms of their seasons there's training and i'm uh i'm extremely thorough and religiously like sort of dialed in when i'm in season and it is work um it's my passion and it's the only thing i probably am uh i can function as a capable human doing but it is work and it is an absolute mind fuck a lot of the time and you know the business stuff i hate i'm not businessy i don't have that wiring um that would have

if i continue to matriculate at some university probably would have helped that cost so i i thankfully i'm surrounded by people who are who are competent humans in a way that i'm not but just the puzzle of song is something that eats at me 24 hours a day where i write something and then i relive it in my dreams and i constantly am reworking and i'm trying to figure out where the flaw is and it can, you know, it just beats me up, you know, and it's one of these things where it's such a strange thing to articulate because, you know, people think, oh, how hard is that? Well, you know what?

It's a voice in your head all day long where you feel like you're losing your shit where it's just like I'm walking around just singing something over and over and over and nauseam and why is this not working. And then eventually when it happens, then it's no longer working. It's just the greatest feeling in the world. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience

that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Ernest, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, Earn Your Leisure,

we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship. From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand. Because the truth is, most people will never talk how money really works. But once you understand the system, you can start to build within it. That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation. If you want to learn how to build wealth,

understand the markets, and think like an owner, earn your leisure is the podcast for you. Listen to earn your leisure on the I-heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Do you feel like this is when, like, your ADHD and your anxiety are actual benefit to your life? The ADHD, yeah.

I mean, the thing about the ADHD is, you know, they always say, you know, it's your superpower. It's your superpower. Yeah, well, it wasn't in school. So it definitely wasn't a superpower. My parents went to Ivy League universities. I graduated the bottom of my high school and did 18 hours at the University of Pacific and Stockton, California. No disrespect.

Go tigers or whatever the mascot is. 18 hours. 18 hours. 18 hours. That's true. So, you know, what's interesting about in life, what I found about ADHD, it's interesting is I do have this strange ability to handle many micro assignments at once. and things like that, where I can have like four or five records going at once,

and I'm really laser-focused on all of them, which is wild. And then if I just have to focus on one, I lose my shit. It's harder. It's like I'm better with more plates, like, sort of flying in my hands. So that's a, I don't know, to you even answer the question? Sure. Okay. Okay, so we talked about college.

You went to four different colleges, and you did really well at all of them, as we could tell. I believe Temple was in there somewhere or something like that, right? Go owls. Good Philadelphia situation. Anyway, so you leave college. You don't, well, you flunk up. You bypass college on your way to greatness. I was on a semester at sea. Sure. Oh, like one of those. That's good. All right. Like a pirate. So you left college and you moved to New York. I'm in New York City. The last school I attended was NYU. And following Rick Ruben. Following Rick Rubin at NYU. And it wasn't. what I expected.

And I delve in that in my best-selling book. I'm sorry, what's it called? I'm sorry, what's it called? I'm not. Matt Holt, Ben Bella books. Available at a local Barnes & Noble or any chain you have or on Amazon. And I will say, I don't read books.

It's the first book I've read in 10 years, and it was fantastic. I read it in eight hours. And I loved every minute of it. People say that to me a lot, Bill. People say it was a very fast read. Now, I don't know how to take that. It means they loved it.

They were enthralled. I feel like, you know, I have a friend who's a speed reader. She's actually really a speed reader And she's like, it's amazing I thought, well, you spent six minutes on it. What was your takeaway? Is that a profession, speed reading?

She's a speed reader. Like for life? No, but she's like part of clubs, like speed reading clubs. Really? Yeah, it's a thing. A lot of weird friends. Well, I'm available.

It's true. I'm very available. But like you also, I was just going to get to later, but like you know fucking everyone. And that's one of my favorite things about you is that everybody who I drop your name to, they're like, oh yeah, Sam, he's the best.

Like, there's no, everybody speaks, not only speaks very highly of you, but everybody knows who you are. Well, Questlove because he didn't show today. Well, Questlove didn't show today. It's a little weird for both of us. But he also does know who you are.

And you've worked with him, but he probably wouldn't remember that. But that's a whole or story altogether. And I'll hold it against him. I like people, man. I like people. I like people. I'm probably a pretty lonely guy.

So I like being around people. And I like to learn from people. And I'm, I like characters. I'm really into characters. And it doesn't matter who they, You know, there's no hierarchy in my brain. I just sort of like people.

And I'm, I don't know. I'm a much happier person when I'm out socializing than when I'm by myself. When by myself, I'm kind of dark. And when I'm alone around, like, big groups of stuff, I like holding court. Because I just love watching all the interaction between people. And I like connecting people, something I learned from Jonathan Daniel again, from Crush, and who early on was the first people who explained to me, the notion of being a connector in life where you really connect people and don't ask for anything, want anything, or assume anything. Just connect people who you think might like each other

because it puts like a really good energy out there and it will manifest in different ways. It always has. This is also something I'm very good at, which I think is why we're friends. 100%. By the way, look, we have very similar wiring. We're both very, very attractive people in podcasts. All the cameras are working very well, particularly at this moment. My lighting is incredible right now.

It's that shirt. I can't, that shirt and the shirt, the whole color scheme is like, hmm. So, well, I'm doing it. This is a floral Paul Smith number. Why, you got to drop brand names now. Underneath would be the homage Doc Ellis T-shirt when he did the LSD, when he did, threw a no-hitter on LSD. Okay.

Didn't see that coming. It went with a matching Nike's, and there is a blue sock thing happening that was not intention. And you always wear a hat as if you are a... Stunted man child. Here's the thing, you know. I wear lids and hoodies everywhere, which makes me very recognizable to the five people who care. But the reason I do is I don't really like the shape of my head. And also, I've been doing it since I was a little boy.

It's funny. I relate to Adam Sandler in so many ways, obviously very attractive Jewish men, but with very doughy features. But what I would say about Sandler is I still, I never grew up. And I, you know, I look at pictures of me in high school and I got my lids. And there was the baseball half phase, and then there was like the, I went full ducky, pretty in pink. So I was like doing the pork pie. And then I went to a fedora for a while.

There was a snow hat, like a tobogging hat. There was always like the snow hats. And what I realized is, I don't know, I just, I feel like I never want to lose the youthful spirit. It's in my writing and it's how I wake up every day. I still feel like a little kid. And anything that is a constant reminder, when I look in the mirror and I still feel like I'm 16, I feel very free. And that's sort of who I am. That's sort of the composite of my thing. Here's a sidebar. How does that affect you as a parent?

Well, I mean, I wouldn't want to be my kid. What does that mean? Well, I mean, when you go to parent-teacher night and, you know, there's 17, you know, hedge-fund bro guys and suits in the back of the room. and there's one very florally draped sloppy guy with ill-fitting clothing. His bank account meets ten times those hedge fund motherfucker. It's just, it's for a child, it's probably a lot to unpack. I have a feeling now I'm hoping I kind of feel like I'm near in that age where my kid is like, oh, wait, he's not that mortifying.

But, you know, for many years, it wasn't easy. In L.A. was simple, though. In L.A. I was just part of that thing. that thing. But in Westchester, it's a little different. There's a great line in your book because it rang true to me about, you took the descendants gig. This is a total, we're skipping head many years, but whatever.

You took the descendants gig so your kid would think you were cool. And I have to tell you that all I do now, shout out to Jake, cousin Jake, our producer, who's about to have a kid. I was explaining to him that his life is about to be over because anything that he ever did for himself doesn't matter anymore. All you're about to do is things for your kids. So all I try to do and fuck you for this is to get a goddamn descendant's gig because all I listen to in the car is camp rock descendants, high school musical, the musical, the musical, the musical. And all, and I had that moment, right?

I did. I did that moment. I was super jealous. I remember I did this record called Shake It with Metro Station. It was a really, really big song. And when that blew up, I was connected with Steve Vincent at Disney. And lovely guy. He's been there forever.

he shepherds the music on every property they have, starting with high school musical on. And he's a lovely guy. And I remember sitting with him, and I was basically begging to work on camp rock, you know. Just watched it last week. And I don't know if he, I don't think he really got it. I don't know if he understood where I was coming from.

And I was like, man, I just, it would be a big flex for my kid. She's three. I need something. And what happened was through the years, I would take a lot of these Disney gigs. And it was awesome because you're working with very sweet people. And the flip side was, you know, it was so cool when, like, the descendants blew up. And my kid and her friends are, you know, watching these songs.

You know, maybe they're reacting to that in ways that they didn't react to boys like girls or gym class heroes or one of these other things. It was super cool. But obviously, I'm pretty needy. I think that isn't lost on either of us. Nope, not in a little. That's rang true today and every day. Yeah. Jesus. All right.

Back in time. So we're post-NYU, and the reason I'm going to get into this is because you, after your NYU career, you started to be your performer. Yeah, that didn't work. Well, I know, but I find the, but you look the part. I love the comparisons and the contrast between, like, you write music, people assume that you perform it versus you don't, and you just write it. And I feel like you dabbled in all of it, and this was that early time right post your fake college career. Yeah. I wanted, once again, there's no manual.

There's no manual, you know. And I'm in the city, and I'm in the city, and hip hop is exploding. And I fall in love with all this native tongue era stuff, right? And it was De Lawn tribe, really, and the Jungle Brothers. Like those three were sort of the pillars of what I got into off the bat. And then there's obviously all the black sheets and roofs and everything else that came along with it, you know. but the early native tongue era, the 89-90, I became obsessed.

And I knew that I wasn't verbally as dexterous in the same way, you know? Is dexterous a word? It is. Sure, it is now. Let's go with it. Isn't dexterose a drug or a glucose? Whatever, fuck it. Okay, here we are.

Dexedrine. Dexterous. Is that dexterous? No. Dexterous. You're the lyricist. Ambidious. dexterous, so it would be dexterous. There you go. There you go. But I, you know, I knew my way

around words and word play. I just didn't really, um, it wasn't, uh, innately an emcee in any way, shape, or form, but I thought it'd be kind of rad to take my jukebox, which was full of, you know, some pretty out records. And I was a, you know, I was a record collector, man. I was like a flea market guy, just like all these kids were. And I thought I had some pretty cool samples. I tried to get people to wrap over. I couldn't get anybody alive to work on my tracks. are making beats, you know? And so I decided to just wrap over my own stuff, which basically meant me screaming over them, because I didn't really know what I was doing. So I sounded like this weird amalgamation of Dr. Dre and hell. But I, uh, I, the craziest shit happened

is I got a record deal. We had a group. Perfect. And I was with my friends, Don and Jason, Don and Jason Lynn, two of my best friends. And we had this weird little group and we got signed. We got signed on the day. We, we, our big showcase for Select Records, and Select was bad. Ask a Select had Chub Rock, UTFO, the Real Rocksana, I believe. It was a very cool seminal hip-hop label of that time. And then they signed us, and that ended the label, obviously. What was funny about is the day we auditioned for the label, as we're about to audition, there's a TV at the lobby of Smash Studios, which is the rehearsal place where we auditioned for the label.

And they announce in real time that Magic has HIV. and, you know, I'm rethinking every single bad decision of my life, questionable move up to that point. And, yeah, as we all are. And then we have to get on a stage and perform and basically like the Beastie Boys on meth, you know? Perfect timing. Somehow we got a record deal. So we got a record deal. And it was the first of many, many mistakes in my career.

Their track masters, before they blew up doing all the stuff for bad boy, et cetera. they were a red hot lover tone was signed a select as well and those guys were um they had spoken and fred wanted them to produce my record and i passed bob power the great bob power who's been on this podcast he was perhaps our i think he was the first or second person that we ended okay so bob power right after uh this is when um he had already done that the second day he did dayless solo is dead and this is right around the time he was doing low end theory he produced one of the songs in my demo that got me a record deal, sure. And then I didn't use them. And then I didn't use them because I had to make my own record because I was... You're that guy. I'm awful. And so I decided I'm going to produce my own

record. And what's amazing is great because, you know, I had my first real check and I had the ability to do this. And I felt like a really, you know, a 21-year-old adult. And of course, I make the worst album ever recorded. And I commit more musical crimes. And God bless my two bandmates because they're sitting in me watching me just crash this car in real time. And they went along with it. And they were so kind that they didn't, you know, restrain me at any point and say, well, this is mortifying. But I made a record. You know, I had a video.

It came out. I was dropped by the time I was 22. I will tell you a true story that this little addendum to my bestselling book, 21 hit wonder. Oh. Oh. Flap all books. Ben Bella books. Wait, you wrote a book?

Yeah. This is a true story. It's all true. Before a Reefer was legal. Okay. But the dark ages? I was a puffer. Yeah.

Shocker. I was at my brother's apartment. He lived on 20th and 8th. And he used to let me just sit there with my journals and write, you know, my poetry or my rap or my songs, whatever I was writing. He would let me sit out there. He would spin records. He'd DJed. So he'd spin records.

And then I would just sit stoned on his porch staring at, you know, he'd have. Avenue. And it was, it was actually a wonderful time of my life. But on one given day, I thought, well, you know what, I'm going to go buy some vinyl myself. I made that, that pilgrimage from my brother's apartment across all the way down, down, down, down, down, down, through McDougal, through Washington Square Park, to Tower Records, okay? It's an important, where we were going. It's important for me, ADHD, but I'm landing it. Stick with me. I know the exact Tower Records you're talking about. I don't know, I don't know if I know this, but I scored the documentary. Okay. That's, that's, that's a, look at you.

you. Yeah. Just a little flex there. Go fuck yourself. I love that documentary. Thank you. It was one of the, and it's,

I think, I look at you like a little differently right now. Thank you. All right. So, um, I make it to Washington Square Park and I see like this weird sea of purple in front of me.

And, and it was like 10,000 princes. It was the NYU graduating class of what would have been my graduating class if I hadn't dropped out of college. A hundred percent true story. This is, this should have been in the book. 100 percent.

And I can't. I can't believe I didn't put it in, but, you know, I know Matt Holt wants to do the sequel with me. We've already been obviously talking about it. But, no, true story. So I actually waltzed by high out of my mind, waltzed by my college graduation of a school I dropped out of and what would have my class. Did you high five everyone? As if anyone knew me. I didn't really register there, Bill.

Yeah. You don't say. But I have no idea where that came from. But, you know, I will tell you one thing about that Tower Records, though, pivotal for me in so many ways because, you know, right up the block was the Wiz, two blocks up was the Wiz on Broadway right there. And on Friday nights outside the Wiz, all the Jeeps would roll up. And whatever the biggest hip-hop and specifically house tracks of 88, 89, 90, they would just sit outside and blare them. And sometimes everyone's radio was on, you know, on BLS or Kiss or whatever.

And I'll never forget, that's where I first heard Gypsy Woman by Crystal Waters. and I can still see the entire 200 kids in the street singing, la-da-da-da-da, you know, and those are those moments that were embedded in me where I realized music as a culture was just some other shit. And, you know, you don't get that in the suburbs the same extent. So that's when I fell in love with the city. And I just wanted to be around it.

And that's when I was going out every night of the week, any showcase, anything I could get into, any, if I, even in our unsuccessful, successful hip-hop amalgamation, when we would do shows at a lot of these venues, AKA and under Acme, places like that, whenever we'd do a show, if we ever met a junior A&R person, I was really big with like very junior A&R people. Huge. You know, and interns. Like their assistants. But you know what?

I was smart enough to realize that these people someday would actually be running this thing. So I would befriend people who were my age and my level, who were just starting out as well. And a lot of those people run things now. My first gig ever was boxing records at Big Beat Records, was just this little independent label. And there were about seven or eight employees. And there were two interns. It was me and Adrian Bartos, who was Stretch Armstrong. But we were the two interns in the back.

And they're about seven or eight of us. And it was run by Craig Calman, who is the chairman of Atlantic now. You know, at that point, he was 23 and I was probably 19. So that's a good story. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too completely. Plex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You told the story. I'm a tell a story. Last night, I went to see Stereophonic, which is the very... Dying to see it. you 100% have to see it. If you work in music or you live in music or you have anything to do with music, you have to go see the show.

It could also be called like Fleawood Mac making of the rumors. That's what I've heard. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's like really involved. The music is amazing. Blah, blah, blah. But the take home is, in my opinion, as a music person, is this is it should be called

why we need producers. Because it's essentially like a bunch of people who are like on many substances, and have many relationships, and there's tons of dynamics, but no one can make a decision, and there's nobody overseeing it. And then the guy who's the lead guitarist decides that he's the producer, and we all know how well that goes. So my question to you is, as I was watching this, I was thinking about, God, I'm going to ask fucking Sam this, is like, talk to me about being a producer versus being a songwriter and why you think being a producer, because I feel like in my life, I've graduated from like Ranger Orchestrator, whatever nebulous title that is, to guy who

writes things from time to time, but then, like, what people know me as in the last few bits has been, like, overseer of things, connector of things, which is sounds, which I try to explain to my parents, and they're like, we don't know what the fuck that means. And I was like, don't want. But, like, I feel like, talk to me about why producers are important and why we need them and why you're one. I just like that you used overseer. You like that's good. That's a take home for me. You can put that in your next book entitled 22 hit wonders. We're way beyond that. We're at least 22.5. We can have half hits. Yeah. Yeah. Look, here's the thing. I'm a pretty terrible producer overall.

Why? I can answer that, you know. It's funny. My breakthrough cut was a song with Jim Class Heroes called Cupid's Show Cold. I produced it, okay? And when I produced it, it opened up a tidal wave of opportunities. It was a number one hit. And then I did, I produced Shake It.

I produced Check-I-S-Juliet for We The Kings. And these were like big, big songs. And so I was the, me and Dave Katz, who I made them with, very important. I did the We the Kings and the Metro Station with Dave Katz. And when we did it, we were Rolling Stones Hotlist producers of the year 2008. I say that flex right now. That was like a pretty gentle. You understand where this is leading, which is great, is we would start to work with artists

who'd come in the room to work with Rolling Stones, Hotlist producers. And they'd see this guy. And then they'd realize we had no idea what we're doing. Now, Dave Katzen knew more than I did, but, you know, we were prone to do a lot of, uh, let's quad that. Anything. Ooh. We just kept saying, let's quad that. Yeah.

You know? And for the uniform, that just sort of makes, uh, that would be four, right? Yep. Four. Yeah, just, just quadruple that. Yep. Whatever the part was. But we liked saying that from the back of the room to our engineer.

Hey, Sean, let's quad that. Yep. And, you know, there are all these sad tropes that we would devolved. I double everything. Leads. I don't give a shit. I double everything. I just, but, you know,

know what, I had no idea what I was doing. No. And the reality was, I'm a songwriter with a producer mentality. And what that means is I'm truly a writer who kind of understands the way the movie should end and hears it sort of in his head sonically. Like, this could be this, this could be this. But the reality is, when I go deep on something, if I'm really going deep on it, it's going to suck. Why?

Because remember when Alex Rodriguez started. doing steroids, right? Sure. You start to beef up, right? You start to get really big and you're like really like your numbers are going through the roof. But the problem is you're going to get busted. I was the same guy.

I feel like I put everything on musical steroids and I would send my tracks to mixers. Like Tom Lord Algae in Miami was mixing a ton of my stuff back then. And there was always this, you know, there were always these moments where I felt like I'm about to get totally outed as the worst. producer in the world. I feel like this every day. Yeah, it was just like, you know, there's imposter syndrome, and there's just being a fucking imposter.

And I was truly an imposter with production. And I didn't really know what I was doing. I do, you know, I do a little programming, but I just felt like, honestly, like, I'm a guy who's had a lot of joy playing around with an SP12 sampler, SP12, 200, you know, I'm at 1.5 seconds or whatever. And I made, like, primitive beats. And that's how I kind of got started in this. And that's probably.

the peak of my creativity as a producer, everything else, I can get it done. And sometimes I can really hit something out of the park. And I think, wow, I'm really not that bad. But I am wise enough not to believe my own hype because there are 18-year-old kids who are infinitely more sonically inclined or just more creative. And when I'm in a room with somebody who I deem a real producer, it's mortifying. Because they're just so beyond me. And I've learned, there's no ego with this. As a writer, I'm pretty good. I stand by my work and I think I'm unique,

but as a producer, I'm a best-selling novelist. Best-selling novelist. It's number on Amazon. Okay. Do they still have Z-Shops? Is that? I don't know what that is.

It's like the cutout bin for books at Amazon. Or is it like at the strand? Like it's in the pile of like $5 and under. All right. It's where all my record started out. I'm very used to having an 88-cent record. I want to talk about breaks. So we've never talked about this because I didn't know until I read your book.

So when I was in my early 20s, I was making musicals and doing whatever I was doing. And a friend of mine, Chris Jackson, who later became George Washington and Hamilton and all this other shit, he was working with, who I didn't know at the time, Mick Murphy. And so I read the book and I couldn't believe this. because so I'll let you talk about Mc Murphy, but let me say what I say. Let me pour some more whiskey. Do it. Hashtag, shout to Angels Envy. So Chris, my friend Chris, he's like, listen, I've been working on this music with these guys.

Do you ever heard of the system of McMurphy? And frankly, as a Jewish kid from Long Island who liked like Coltrane and Dave Matthews, I did not know a lot about the system of Mc Murphy. Full disclosure. So I went and I'm sitting there with Mick Murphy and he is the nicest guy in the world. He's a sexy fellow. He is a very sexy fellow. But not a person who's ever been in my life.

Like, ever. Not that, like, his personality and his son. And we like went to his house and he like still worked in acid. Remember that program? Yes, of course. You know, and like, he played the guitar really well. And he was lefty. And I was like, who the, he's like a cartoon.

And we collectively produced this guy, Chris Jackson's album. And at the time, I didn't know. And so finally, like, this is crazy. This is crazy. So I googled him and like, and then like he would teach me. He would just leak all kinds of things to me about how to make music and how to write good songs. And like he would, his shit was so sophisticated, but you would never know. And I loved that about like the harmonic structures were so intense.

And like the way he played the guitar, like Babyface was like so involved. But the songs were so simple and elegant. And it was really one of the, anyway, you can speak this. But like in your book, Mick and his part, Dave. David, right? They gave you one of your early breaks. They gave you a space, right? They believed in you and they gave you some shit.

I just thought that was, that was a weird moment for me, reading that in your book, that we both had that at different times. Those guys, so, you know, I'm old as fuck. So, pre-internet, you know, if you wanted any opportunity in this business, you would look at the back, you'd look at the back of records. You'd see labels, producers, whoever, and then you'd go to the phone book and you would try to find phone numbers and you would cold call and that's what I did and I cold called a science lab which was their production company and those guys were coming off don't disturb this groove which I danced

to at my prom which was kind of rad. I mean and it's a year later and I cold call and I just say look I'm an artist and you know I'd love to send you a demo tape blah blah blah and they're this lovely fellow Todd Allen working for them and he answered the phone and he invited me in and you know I think they dug me and they signed me to a production deal and I was 18 and I mean those guys were so badass I mean you know David was playing on Shaka Khan records

they were I think they were writing for Shaka they did this record attitude a song I think was called We Got the Juice which was incredible they had this incredible setup they were in the 1650 Broadway and a floor below was next plateau records which had

the beginning of salt and pepper you know and stuff like that and then the science lab in their room little Louis Vega was used in their room so all that early house stuff was getting made at the end of the hall as well

so I was able to absorb so much badass shit and I was 18 and they were lovely guys I ran into David a hotel in L.A. about four months ago and look I owe those guys immensely because they were the first people

you know it's hard especially when you drop out of school and your parents or like these, you know, massive intellectuals and very academic. And you're trying to rationalize this decision. And if somebody who actually, who has succeeded and is a class act at the level of those guys, you know, is able to, you know, express interest in you and take you under their wing, it buys you a little time with your parents.

And that's what it did. It bought me time. And so I owe them immensely because even though, once again, those guys, you know, there was only so much listening I was going to do with that. I was still going to do my own thing. Just being around and being in their orbit, I was privy to some crazy stuff, you know? I remember Dre Betts was one of the cats in their circle

working out of the spot, and he was doing that. What's the justify my love? That's when he did justify my love. So I remember hearing that very early. That was pretty cool. What was so great about no internet and no access is you kind of stumbled into it.

shit. And that was the New York that I miss, you know, I miss the wide-eyed excitement of stumbling, stumbling into rooms. I remember, you know, my friend Jake Miller, who I discussed, who passed away a long time ago, Jake and his band, they're called Xanax 25, and they were doing sort of like a Prague medley kind of thing. And they were living on a loft on Second Avenue. And through Steph Scamarda, who is Warren Haynes' wife, who was doing A&R at Fourth and Broadway. They meet the Jungle Brothers. And next thing you know, the Jungle Brothers are making this progressive, weird, psychedelic rock sort of hip-hop record in this loft with these guys. And, you know, I'm the biggest Jungle Brothers fan in the world, man. And I'm like allowed to hang out

every once in a while and just watch my friends like throw down with these guys making this really cool progressive shit that never saw the light of day. It was neat. It was just every day It was just like this weird. New York was like this one big reveal, right? You would just like walk through a door. And if you were socially inclined and you were not, you know, I was fearless, man. I walk up to anybody. And if you have to.

Yeah. I mean, well, you know, now they run. But now you're old. Back then I was young and it was a little less creepy feeling. We interviewed Chris Rock like years ago. And he said the best thing. He's like, yeah, I know I'm a comic and I do these things. He's like, but you know what my best quality is?

And we're like, what? he said, I show up and I, essentially, I show up and I don't get kicked out. So I'm always there. That's great. And I feel like a lot of the anecdotes in your book are like, I was just there. There's like some business. It's Chauncey Gardner. There's some shit about like QSack and like you were part of this like weird rat packy New York situation where it was like you and whoever the fuck else it was and some screenwriter and you're doing all this stuff.

And I just feel like you're around. You're always, and there's some pictures of you in that book where you're just like in the background. I was like, oh, fuck it, just Sam, just there. Like, songwriting aside, you were just there. I was like the ultimate hangar-on, you know? But that's my thing, too. Like, I always seem to be around. Dude, I can close my eyes.

And it's, you know, it's Thanksgiving, probably 93. And John Cusack is doing Thanksgiving with me and my grandmother and my mom and dad and my brother and his wife on the Upper East Side. And then John and I go out afterwards and meet up with Jeremy Piven and Uma Thurman. It was Piven. That's it was. Yeah. So it's me, John Cusack, Jeremy Piven, and Uma Thurman, and we're all standing on the stairs of the Met.

And it's pouring rain. And we're sort of dancing together. And I'm self-aware enough to know one of us doesn't belong in this quadrant. Absolutely. And I just, it was amazing because it really lit a match in me. And that's why I, look, I'm forever indebted to those. guys because they saw something in me, you know, maybe I didn't ask for anything, which was a nice skill.

I definitely, I wasn't a taker, which is good, but they let me hang around. And just being sort of tangentially involved in all their sort of happenings and after-hour stuff, what was cool is, man, I just got to see how great it is to sort of, you know, to have access and to achieve whatever pinnacle. Like they were all very successful at that time. Like it lit a match like, man, if I had a measured level of success, I won't feel like an outsider in every room. I will feel like maybe I belong one step more.

I didn't want to be a plus one my whole life. And I think that really fueled, like that sent me like into orbit creatively because I thought, you know, if I'm able to achieve something and it resonates on any creative scale. If I'm not a plus one anymore and I'm actually part of the group and I've earned my way where you think, oh, this guy just isn't another one of the hangar-ons, you know? Do you know I told Piven not to do entourage? Really?

What? Why isn't that not in the book? I did. That's a good line. I told Piven. How'd that conversation go? Me and my wife and Jeremy went to Fred Siegel for dinner, 20-something years ago, whatever it is. He told us about this thing he'd been offered.

I was like, I don't know. It sounds kind of whack, man. I don't know. I'm not an agent. Trust me. You don't want me reping you. anything. That feels like Lynn invited me to Hamilton

off Broadway. And he goes, what'd you think? I was like, I don't know that like my grandmother from like Long Island is going to get it. Awesome. And I stuck to that. Yeah, you nailed that. Yeah, I really, I feel like I'm a really good, I have a really good sense for six clearly. Jesus. Right. So I feel like this is a good spring word. So like, yes, the Kuzak

QZakness, that's a word. So we get into 2000. And I feel like 2000 until today is like, or maybe a few years ago, is like Sam Hollander heyday. And what I mean by that is like between 2000 and 2020, this is the time we're talking of you as rock producer of the year and Big Dick of the West and all the shit that you accomplished

in those particular years. But like, what was the first song that led off 2000s that opened the door? I know there's a there's a Clive Davis. There's a Clive Davis. I know we're skipping stuff. There's a lot of things. I mean, the one thing at the end of the day, there were like three or four little tent pole things that happen, but the first is Carol King

because I connect with Carol King in 2000, and, you know, we begin writing songs together. But explain how that happened because it's a really good story. Well, you know, I... And also not one that anyone would ever put on you, even in that shirt. Okay, wow, strong.

So what I realized in my 20s is there are no doors open. for me. I failed as an artist and I started making beats and hawking beats around and nothing's working. I meet a guy named Joe Rickatelli, who was awesome, who ended up being the president of RCA. But before that, he was a running promotion island. And I met him through my friend Kimberly. And he gets me and my partner at the time was a guy named Doug DeAngelis. He gets us remixes. And I start building up remixes, remixes. And then it continues solo. And with Dave Schumer and different configurations.

I'm doing remixes of Def Jam catalog stuff. He gets me in the mix. I'll tell you, these remixes are God-awful, and no one's ever heard them, but they're always the B-sides to, like, a club promo. So he cared enough about me to always throw my things on. So I had a, suddenly my discography, which had nothing, had Method Man DMX,

the thong song. Like, all these pivotal records of that time, I had, like, the techno-remix. Now, no one alive was listening for the techno-remix on these things, but suddenly I had, credits, which was rad. My only access to getting bigger stuff, I realized was going to be creating my own groups

because there was no future in techno remixes. For me, because I'm terrible. But also, because there are probably people who are amazing at it. I just wasn't one of them. If you're Crystal Method, you're like, hey, fuck you, Sam Hollander. But, you know, I'm not Crystal Method. So I realized I got to put groups together because the one thing I realized as a student of the game is somewhere between, you know, the Malcolm McLaren.

and the Stock Aikman Watermans and a lot of these British cats, you know, if people aren't going to record your own songs, then you better find your own groups to sing them. And so I would take out ads in the village voice and I started casting for groups to like cut my stuff. And I'd find people, take them off for coffee

and just say, hey, I'll write, I have a studio, you know. It's a little dump, but like, you know, I'll write a song, whatever, we can collaborate and, you know, I'll figure it out. And what happened was, I got a, bunch of people signed over a very quick amount of time. There was a, there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a, a news source for music called the Hits Daily Double, which still exists, but they had something called a rumor mill. And if you were in that, your phone would ring off the hook.

Somehow a guy named Joe Fleischer got wind of my stuff and he started touting me and my partner as like the next guys. And it was right when he had just blown up the Neptunes too, right? So we're like going to be the next guys, not the Neptunes. You know, know, and we start getting all these calls from labels, and I'm developing all these acts at the same time, and over a two-year period, I want to say we got five or six act signed to major labels. The first was a woman named Tarsha Vega, and I believe she was an assistant in the CBS television accounting department or something like that, and she came in and she had never

wrapped and never sung, but... Perfect. Yeah. But, you know, her personality. was so great. She was super cool looking and she was just a great vibe. And she was down for me just writing stuff. And I started writing these songs with my man, Dave Schumer. And we were doing, he was doing the tracks and I was writing the lyrics and the melodies. And what happened was RCA records heard it. They signed her as my first act signed to like a major. I'd had a singer

name Sabrina sang to sign a Tommy Boy. That didn't happen. So I'm over one. Then RCA signed stars of Vega. Massive deal, all this press. And I'm once again producing a record. I mean, no idea what I'm doing. And I make another terrible record and that's on me. And, but what's funny about it is, it's time for a cameo on the record and we're looking for a cool feature. And my wife had just seen Blood Brothers on Broadway. And she said, Carol King is amazing in Blood Brothers. And the label was thinking more along the lines of Indiari or somebody like that. And I was like, how about Carol King. And everyone looks at me stone face, but Brian Maloof, who was A&R on the project, had a relationship with Carol's manager Lorna, who's very lovely, and Carol next to you know, within a week, is down in

her studio, and she sits down across from me and Tarsha, the artist, and she's going on and on about what's going on lyrically and the stuff, and she really digs it. And to shout out Tarsha, who's this wonderful person, Tars, Tars, just looks and says, well, he writes the lyric. and that's him. I don't write the lyrics. And Carol looks at me, like very puzzled. And I'm thinking,

what's up? This is Mount Kisco, New York, in the flesh. That's how we do. Represent. Represent. So, immediately, me, Dave, and Carol start writing together a lot.

And we write a bunch of tunes. Just because she likes your lyrics. Yeah. I think she's like the vibe of both of us, but I also think she liked the fact that, like, you know, music was changing, and we were pulling lots of influence, but also we were super respectful.

of her catalog. We were knowledgeable. We knew. Like, I could talk jazz man with her and other stuff. And she came in the room with us and three or four songs and we wrote Love Makes the World and that ended up being the title track and the single from the last album she ever made. And that was, you know, 24 years ago. And that was a really cool calling card because through that she introduced us to Paul Williams who really became like a big brother figure to me throughout my entire career. I connected with Nile Rogers, you know. And I just started, I felt personally, I was getting lots of respect from the old guard, I just still couldn't permeate anybody my own age. And that's when I knew I had to go even deeper into developing acts.

And that's when Jonathan Daniel steps in because we're watching what Crush Management's doing at the time. And they have all these cool young bands, and they're bringing me in, and I'm beginning to collaborate with them. And while we created boys like girls, and we found We the Kings and Metro Station these things, also created Cobra Starship with Crush. me and Dave Katz did. We created a cobra starship with those guys.

Good girls, go bad. I do I work with them with. Yeah, we did not do that one, but we did do snakes on the plane, which is the greatest song. Ever. Greatest song ever. Of all the songs.

But we did that whole first album. And, you know, we just, we had this incredible symbiotic relationship of all of us. We shared this loft. And, you know, we would just develop acts. And, you know, once an act was successful,

they would take the next one on the road with them as direct support. And we were working outside of the industry machine, which was awesome. And that's what sort of, that was what sort of elevated my moment. I just, you know, it's just at 34, I'm making beats on kids' bop records. We didn't get, I forgot about kids' bob.

And 35, I have like a number one hit. So anything, it all shifted at that age. And that's really why I wrote the book, Bill, to be honest with you. Because, you know, at the end of the day. I'll just go fuck myself. Thank you very much. At the end of the day, I think what's interesting about my story is the few. utility in the previous 14 years was at a level that most people will never fathom.

And I thought, you know, I'm so sick of reading, you know, people's tomes where they gloss over all this shit, where it's literally like 100 pages of the struggle, 50 pages, and then it's like victory lap, victory lap, victory lap. And what I wanted people to understand is the torture never ends. And I've never gotten to a place of comfort. It's like I might be fiscally sound at this point, but I'll tell you something. I still get my ass kicked every single day creatively where I deliver. live or something and it gets shredded or stepped on or tossed. And that's what I want to people

understand is it is the greatest life in the world. I think you and I share this affinity for it. Like we've been able to do things that we never dreamed were possible. And the flip side is we still get spit on every day. We wake up. I tell my kid as she has, you know, as she dabbles with her interests in this, I said, look, it's akin to stepping outside on Broadway every morning getting hit by a cab. Twice. Yeah. And then wick, and then, you know, dusting yourself off and going off and writing a song.

Yeah. Because that's what it's like. Because that's what my inbox looks like in the morning. Yeah. It's like one like disaster after another. And then I just, I do it again and do it again and do it again and hope that the tide works in my favor. I was impressed given I'd also work in this line of work that like so many lows, Sam, and so many highs. There seems, it seems to be like you're always searching for some sort of middle.

And what you just said just says this is there is no middle. There's no middle, right? It's either like you've written 10 pieces of shit or you're number one smash hit, right? And it's always, it's always that. Well, it's also, you know, I'm thankfully I'm at an age now. I'm 28. And I've, I've aged. Dressed like a 27-year-old.

I'm just Benjamin Button. But what's interesting at this age is I have enough perspective to look back on it and understand the waves, right? And I really, you know, I can sort of almost on a pie chart in my head, I sort of understand where the highs were or where the dips were. So it's hard to fluster me at this point because I'm ready for rejection. You know what I mean? It's okay.

And I understand that I'll still have another moment. I'll always have another moment and I'm always going to have another disaster. And as long as I can wake up knowing that, then nothing sort of irks me. 2%. That is the number of people. who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness,

and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Pers on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Ernest, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, earn your leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship. From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand. Because the truth is, most people will never talk how money really works. But once you understand the system, you can start to build within it.

That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation. If you want to learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner. Earn your leisure is the podcast for you. Listen to Earn Your Leisure on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

You mentioned Paul Williams and the great Paul Williams. The greatest, Paul. The greatest. And there's a section in your book, which I find very funny, sort of like the composers I wish I could have been, or the ones I respect the most, or whatever you want to call it.

And there's who, who's he wants it from Abba maybe or whatever, but my favorite one, which we've never discussed, is Joe Raposo. And so, and I thought long and hard about this as I read it. And people ask me about him all the time

and what it's like living in that shadow. And it's a lot. And I think it's a weird, I think when someone's the first to do something and do it unbelievably well, and you're someone who like takes over that thing or like tries to carry that torch, it's a lot of pressure.

And in the beginning, I thought like this. And then, I mean, over time, I was just like, I'm just trying to do the best job I possibly can, and I'm here for a reason and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, in the thing you mentioned about how Sesame Street was major in your songwriting and your childhood and everything else.

Simplicity, Fender Roads. But it was so complex. And that's my favorite thing about Sesame Street is people are like, it's songs for children. But if you look at that stuff, it is not simple at all. Well, quarterly ridiculous. I mean, he's a freak. but I just love the repetition.

There were just ideas that even as a young sort of barely formed musical brain, you know, he did the three's company theme, you know? There's a lot of like under the hood stuff about it. He was also Sinatra's favorite. Right. He was Sinatra's favorite writer.

It's like I've always loved people who are in on the joke. And that's how I look at it. Like, we're all in on the joke. It's like, it's music. It's, the goal of what we're doing is we're trying to sort of make people feel something, illicit emotions. And when I listen to Raposo stuff, you think, oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's Sesame Street. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's this, these warm sort of tender little moments, you know, won't you come out in, you know.

But at the core of it is just the badass. Like, man, you know, put on those songs, you know. and you get chills. It's like they're, they're so broad. And he was able to write really broad stuff for a genre that I think previously wasn't at that level of sophistication. And to me, he's one of those, like, he's one of those pillars as a kid when I heard his stuff. And it's crazy because, you know, in Cape Cod, we spend a lot of time and chat him in the summer.

And it's about 20 years ago. I'm having a cup of coffee. I'm sitting on a bench outside the lot of. library and I turn around and it says this bench is dedicated to Joe Raposo who lived his life here blah blah blah blah you know and I had chills because it was the only bench you know I just I I had coffee probably who sits on a bench and from a library I was going to ask what were you doing but it's like you know it's like it's like it's like it was just like a this place that I used to go and sit you know I had like a routine and I never looked at the little placard it's like the small little placard

and I was so moved by that. I thought, well, this is divine. And, you know, he set the bar for that genre, but I just love the ones,

what I love about it, what I mean by the joke, is here's this guy he's doing Sesame Street. At the same time, he's writing Three's Company and he's writing songs for Sinatra. He understands that it's all music. And this is what I,

you know, taking it back to Square of Form 1, it's all genreless, right? He's just writing exactly what he felt. You know, what's weird is, sometimes I listen to my voice. I sound like Joe Biden.

Is that right now? It's like a weird feeling. It's like a weird feeling. It's a weird layered feeling. Just like, fuck, man. I'm a little monotone today. What is going on? I'm sorry.

All right, so we're Carol King. It's post 2000, right? We're in the early 2000s. We get the Carol King. Carol King becomes the calling card of the thing. What happens next? Well, you know, I start doing these fun little bands and a lot of hits happen. And what happens is, once again, because I knew that all scenes eventually die or

morph or something, as these, uh, as we're making these pop punk or emo records and they're becoming big pop hits, I begin to realize there's a shelf life because we're repeating ourselves a lot. I'm writing a lot of songs lyrically with escapism themes and us against the world. This is like I to we or something, yeah, or you.

Yeah, there's a lot of Paul Williams' tricks, etc. that I'm just applying to this. And I realized that I'm beginning of phone songs in. And I got to this point where I was like, you know, I can phone in a B plus A minus every timeout. I know what that is. I know how to get it there. And songs were going from first singles,

like getting first single on everything to getting like the third single on things, you know? And songs weren't working the same way. And the talent level started to shift a little bit where starting to work with some kids who interested me less. You know, that first wave of these scene kids that we worked with, you know, the kids and, you know, and boys like girls and we the kings, Jim Class Heroes, Travis McCoy, you know.

These kids were awesome. They were like little stars, you know. And I started to see kids feel less like stars to me. There's still some ones that popped, but there were kids that just felt like they were at the end, dying end of a scene. And that's when I immediately made the conscious decision to jump into what they call hot AC or whatever. But like, just sort of like, you know, the equivalent of soft rock. But what happened was

I would stay at La Park Suites in L.A. I always stay at the same hotel. And when I stayed at this hotel, they would blast this stuff on the roof. It was always Matchbox 20 or Dave Matthews or, you know, Uncle Cracker, train, Sugar Ray, all this stuff. All people you then went on to work with. Yeah, but what was weird about it was,

it was, I'm sitting up there and I'm realizing they're not playing my music. My music isn't, I think I'm, you know, in the zeitgeist at the second and these are hits, but I don't know if they're going to be, recurrent. I don't know if these songs are going to live on. And I got into music with the notion of, sure, I just wanted to write one hit, but I wanted to write a hit that lived on. Is legacy important to you? Because it's another question I get asked all the time as the Sesame Street guy. It's like, do you think about your legacy. Is that a thing that comes up to you? Because it doesn't, it's, it's, I do not, I'm not, maybe I haven't reached the age or the gravitas of my life. I don't think about that. I'm psychotic. I think about it every day. I know, but you're fine, but you're not psychotic. And you're not psychotic and, like a psychotic way. You're psychotic and I'm in my head kind of way and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm also 95. You are 100 years old. But you look great for your head.

A lot of people say that. It's weird. You know, here's what I think about legacy. I've been doing it so long and I've put so, so much work into this. And I like to, I would love to look back. I love people to look back and think, wow, this guy brought some joy, you know. But that's already, that's already happened. But that's it. But that's what the legacy is. Like I hope that people someday can connect the dots and go and think, wow, this guy wrote some really. uplifting shit or some stuff that made me feel something. And there was a lot of it. There's a body of work. And it's a body of work. I don't know if it's a legacy, but I do take my body of work seriously. And, you know, I've also committed many musical crimes. So, you know, those are worth mentioning as well.

I've made some records that, you know, what's, I love, you know, there's things I love about Spotify, right? But Spotify with their playlist, when they're written by playlist, like each one of them does one, right? Amazon does one. Apple does one in Spotify. What sucks about Spotify's is it's just every song you've ever done. They don't curate it. So when they sent it to me,

I was honored. I'm like, wow, I get like a written by page, but it's 400 songs. And not all of them are great. Not all are great. I mean, there are some things in there.

There is one song written with some Canadian kid who were named Nameless where I turned that thing on. I was like, holy fuck. I wrote the worst song ever written. Yeah.

And I don't know what the protocol is. if I can just take, like, you know, pull it in Allen Smithy, you know, and take my name off it. Just delete it. Yeah. Just, you know. Pretend it never have it.

Just a pseudonym very late in life. But crimes committed by Sam Long. All right. But it'll say, train, train. So then I start writing with, um, let's get me, come on. You're, you're really taking us off course. I do, but like, I find, I was, I have more. Okay, but here's the thing about train.

So I hook up a train. I didn't ask about train. But fine, let's talk about train. Drops of fucking Jupiter. Let's do. I want, I didn't write that. I know. But what happens is all these bans, let's talk about Questlove.

Yeah. Let's just talk about Questlove. Yeah. That's great. What if he just strolled in right now? What a moment that would be? Okay, here we go. He'd be like, great.

Who's this imposter? Nice shirt. Yes. So he'll rock some floral shit. I sat next to him at the Moth Gala last year. All right, Moth Gala. Did you tell a story? Fuck you.

First of all, by the way. I did a moth once. Oh, my God. With Jeff Garland. Oh, you want to go deep? You want to go deep? Go ahead. No, I'm just saying, like, honestly, they didn't ask me to speak to them off gal.

They just, they just let me sit there. But I said, that Questlove is a very good-looking man. And, you know, he gets a lot of attention. He's like a table one guy. Sure. I'm table nine. But like, do you always find it funny when you meet somebody who you think is a table, who should be a table one guy, but they're not cool?

And you're just like, what happened to you? It's the same thing as when they meet me and they think, No, no, no, no, no. How the fuck did you end up at table nine? You're really a table one. But no one thinks you're cool. Like, there's no expectation. With him, there's like an expectation that you're going to be cool.

And then you're with some people. And you're just like, oh, that's bummer. That's not what I thought. I find most people cooler than me. 100%. But you're pretty cool. Moving on. So we're post-trained.

But before we get into train, I feel like there's minutia of songwriting that I want to get into. I love all your accolades. Read the book. He talks about all the accolades. You fuck, shut up. We talk about songwriting all the time. In fact, we write songs together, you and me, Sam, all the time now. So having been in a bunch of, like, writers, composer rooms.

Yes. And so there's a section in your book about Max Martin and the whole synchronicity of Swedish pop and how that shit works. And it's another thing that I have a lot of experience. You know it better than I do. I do. And the way that they work and how that happens is a thing, right? And so there's a lot. There's interesting things in your book, and we have talked about this at later.

Yes. About, like, Swedish. Well, that, but like songwriter is therapist. song like so in my early days when I let's talk about me for a second in my early days when I had a publishing deal they were like go to this thing sit in a room with someone you've never listened you don't know anything about and write a song about car washes or whatever the fuck it was and I remember going and I was so young and naive and they had paid me $5,000 and like taken my whole life's earnings and I was like cool I couldn't pay rent so great take that for a year whatever and I remember

feeling so uncomfortable and being like this is not what I do This is not, I need like alone time and I can't deal with it and da-da-da-da. So smash cut to years later when I stopped doing like the writing sessions and then I was just like producing records or making things. And I find this idea, go back to Stereophonic from last night, like the producer as therapist or psychologist is like, I feel like 80% of the gig, man. Like dealing with the crazy and then and then also like having the ability to tell so-and-so the lead singer like actually no. Like, it should be this or like whatever. And also, there's a bonus cut in your thing that says, like, something the effect of whether you like it or not, the lead singer is always the person that makes a decision of the thing, right? Whatever your person that is, right?

Which is 100% correct. Like, the bass player's not saying shit. The bass player's in the back, like, thumping out roots and, like, loving his life and, like, who cares? And he gets laid the most, always the bass player. But, like, the lead singer is always the guy that makes, whether he knows what he's talking about or not, that's the guy, right? Well, writers, one thing I'll say. Aspiring writers, if you're out there, if you're aspiring songwriter, if you're aspiring songwriter, if you're, if you're aspiring songwriter, if you're. if you are able to permeate this beast of an industry and you get a publishing deal and

they say to you, hey, you know what? We have so-and-so band and we want you to write with the drummer. You don't do it. You just veto it right away. You just veto it. It's not going to happen. I'm busy that day. It's not going to happen.

And I have friends who still fall for it, which is the craziest thing. People my age who still fall for it. Like, oh, my God. It's the drummer from blah, blah, blah. You know, I think I can get on the record. you can't, nor do you want to. Look at the credits. Yeah. You know, look who, you know who, know who has the keys to a project. Yes, to answer what you're saying, um, you know, like how do you approach those things? What, do you have a different minds? Well, first of all,

it's a speed dating, right? It's a date. It's a date. It's a speed dating. Um, I did it for so many years and, you know, I do it less now just because I'm probably burned out of the process. But for many years, I would do 200 speed dates a year where I would get in a room with some configuration of people, and it's 35 minutes of small talking and trying to bond and, you know, sort of forge a relationship. And then we have to get deep and really, like, expose some nerves and really figure out who we are in the room. And it's interesting because when you're writing with their artists, some days you're writing with artists who are incredibly lyrical, which sort of falls into my domain. So then I have to shape shift immediately in the room because I do not want to suppress their

thing. And I know I'm smart enough not to suppress it. But the flip side is I got to figure out how I exist in the room, because if I'm just the editor, I don't really feel that, like, I've earned my keep. So it's constantly, the adaptability is huge in a room, you know. You have to be able to do a lot of different skills based on, you know, the artist that you're working with. And many times, most times, the A&R person or the publisher or whatever, won't give you any exposition on the person because they don't really know what their creative process is. So you can get a room with somebody and you think, wow, they write really poetic stuff and realize that, they don't have any verbal dexterity at all. They have nothing. And so you then have to become that person instantly.

Other days, you know, you're writing with an artist who you believe is incredibly lyrical, and they're the best melodic writer you've ever seen, but maybe they don't do the things. And then other days, they say, oh, they don't really have a lot to say, and you're sitting with somebody and they write the most profound shit. I wrote a song with a 16-year-old kid from London named James T.W. and a great writer named Nolan Seip. It was about nine years ago. We wrote this song called When You Love Someone,

and it was written from the perspective of parents coming home and telling their child that they were getting divorced. And it's sort of all the fallout from that. This is not a fun song. Super light and fluffy. I would tell you it's probably the best song I've ever written. Really?

Yeah. And it's a huge song. song, like globally huge songs, 700 million streams, something like that's a big tune. But what's interesting about it is Nolan and I, who are both pros with a lot of hits, we didn't come up with that topic. The 16-year-old did. Really? He guided it.

We just, like, then wrote the song. But it was his vision, and he really guided it. And, you know, and his melodies were beautiful. And he had some really great lines. And also, he's a great guitarist. But there was no exposition with that. No one ever said to me, hey, when you get in the room with this 16-year-old kid, he's going to write the most profound shit of your career.

It's like you don't know. And so the number one skill as a songwriter, an aspiring writer, at any level, is to read a room. And reading a room is priceless. And if you don't have that ability, it's going to be hard to be a collaborator. Because you have to know when to put the foot on the gas and you have to know when to slam on the brakes and just get out of the way. And it changes every single day. See, that's what I'm saying. to a place of comfort with it because if you are going with the same if you're going if you're

treating it with some sort of repetition every single day doing the same routine it won't work you you're dealing with different especially and you're on a treadmill of sessions and then the biggest mind fuck of all is that you can write something that you believe is absolutely game changing but you still have that awful voice in the back of your head that says tomorrow this person's writing with a whole new configuration and they're younger and they're hot and they're or having their moment, and he's going to fall in love with that grouping because they're cooler, and they'll end up getting maybe the single or the cut that, even though you really feel like you wrote the most powerful shit ever, it just messes with your head all day long.

2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more

fulfilled healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWO% on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Ernest, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship.

From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, we translate complex financial topics into real conversations everyone can understand. Because the truth is, most people will never talk how money really works. But once you understand the system, you can start to build within it. That means ownership, smarter investing, and creating opportunities not just for yourself, but for the next generation. If you want to learn how to build wealth, understand the markets, and think like an owner, earn your leisure is the podcast for you.

Listen to Earn Your Leisure on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You're like a lyric first guy. Always. And I know for a fact that guys like Max Martin are a melody first guy. So. But like both of you have written hits

and for totally different reasons. But he's written more. Sure he has. And he's written a ton. And he would, if he was here, he would have something to say about this, but whatever. Well, he's better than me.

No. Why? This is not a competition. It is a competition. It is a fucking competition. He's Max Martin. definitely. But like, with Max, he always is talking about melody,

right? So it's melody, million, million, melody. And I feel like his disciples are melody, melody, melody, melody. And you live in more of like the, this is a shit example, Bob Dylan lyrical world.

And I think that that's so interesting because at the end of the day, a fucking hit is a hit. So like, you've written a hit, he's written hit. They've been on the same charts in different places. Yeah.

But like, why is it that? Because like... Why is it that his songs are bigger? No. Because he's better. He's him truly more gifted. Why? Let's start there.

No, but what I would say is, one thing I would say is... But how can you have that different approach and still have the same outcome? I guess it might... Well, melody is king, right? But not with you. It's not with me, but I think maybe I'm lucky, because truthfully, at this point, melody supersedes everything. The one thing that helps me lyrically is I'm pretty conceptual.

So songs like, you know, a check-guess Juliet, or one of these things that sneaks through, one of these are like quirky, handclap. Hand clap's a pretty quirky little tune, you know. Might be the biggest song in my career. Might be. And it's a quirky little number. And it didn't come from a melodic place.

It came from a lyrical place. I mean, that was based on, like, you know, that's a, there's a real shape to what I wrote there. And there was a reason for it. And then Fitz really stepped in and with that, you know, the crazy blown out horn sample thing. And when we wrote that thing, it was obvious that it was very unique. But that's the kind of record that I love because it's it's kind of amorphous. I don't really know what hand clap is. It's not really alternative.

It's not really pop. I don't know what is. It's kind of weird. And those are my favorite tunes. The quirky ones are the things that I really react to because they're a little bit off because that's where no one can fuck with me. Like if I'm trying to write something that's hyper melodic, there's like an entire country of Sweden that can outright me.

It's not a big country. So I know that lyric and concept is going to be the place that I can enter the building first. And then, you know, just sort of piece it together to the best of my ability. But that's my best, that's my greatest skill, you know. But you're right in terms of we all can end up in the same place. But what's interesting is a guy like Max and some of these writers who are so blessed melodically, they can kind of hit it every time out because they just hear things that other people don't hear.

For me, it's a little harder because these concepts have to be really unique to me and they have to sort of hit beats that I feel like are just so uniquely me that maybe it'll raise its hand. So we've been talking for a long time and we can stop at any time. But I have two more questions that I think are important.

I'm an Ares. I'm a Sagittarius. Okay, so is my wife. See? sort of explains it all. It's all becoming very clear now. All right. So I have two questions.

All right. My first question is, because people ask me this, like, do you know when you have a hit? I know that's like such a generic question, but I feel like it's important because... I do.

Sometimes you're like in my... So I'll talk about me for a second. Sometimes I feel like I fucking killed it. And then I'll send it to whoever sent it and they're like, this is the worst. Sometimes I'll write what I believe is the biggest piece of shit of all time

and they'll be like, it's fucking genius. And I don't... And I've been doing this for, not as long as you have, but long enough. And I still don't know. And like, to me, that's a little bit of the excitement that I still can't fucking figure this out. After 30 years, 25 years of doing this, I still can't figure out.

I should be able to fit, but I still can't. I definitely know. You know? 100%. Okay. Because I asked Max the same question. And he, we were talking about how great he is. He's like, everything to him is super subjective.

So it's always just like, I don't know, it's how I felt that day. Like, why did you write this? No, no, no, how I felt that day. Da, da, no. Like there's no, I think, I think there's an idea that there's like a math and a science to it. And I think some of it is, but I think a lot of it, more so than you would think, is super subjective. Where it's just like... Can I say something?

Yes, sorry, I'm talking a lot. Fuck that guy. Suck it all. Shuck it of all. It's about highs and lows here on Questlove Supreme starring Bill and Sam. This is what I would say is, I get the, you know, I get a galvanic response. Sort of, it happens. There's certain songs.

where I just instantly, the chills start. Like hand clap, did you know? 100%. You did. High hope, did you know? 100%. Of course, you said those songs are fucking awesome. 100%.

You dick. All right, I love them. They're so good. You know, someone to you by banners, a song that nobody really heard. We heard. Steve Day and our guy heard. I don't even know if Mike, the artist, heard. But I was convinced that someone to you by banners, the second it left the guy heard.

room. I was like, man, I just think I wrote a perfect song, like, as good as I can get. I believed everything about the song would work. Everything was stacked against the song. It took five and a half years for it to break. It'll be at a billion streams in a year. It's a big song. And the truth is, I knew it the second this kid left the room. And this is like a young artist who, you know, was at the stage in his career where I don't know if he could sell out of Starbucks yet. But I knew the song was perfect. And there's just, there's certain songs, you know. You know, I knew Czech-Yes, Juliet, it was going to be huge. I knew there was just certain ones along the way.

You know, I could pinpoint, you know, that I definitely, waiting for Superman by Daughtry, I thought would be a big song. They're just songs where we leave the room and I think, wow, this is like a big, this just works. I can see it sort of. And was it like a chill thing? Because that happens to me from time of time where it's like, you hear something, you're like, oh, I can't not trust my body having a completely out of body experience.

Hand clap, high hopes, Chech-Ce's Juliet, all three of them, yes. Yeah. I believe that. And also the banner song, and also that James T.W. ballad, I left there. And I thought to myself, okay, when you love someone, it's like a mid-tempoy ballad. It doesn't really have a pulse. And it's not a rhythmic record. I have no idea who's going to play this thing. And it's the best song I've ever written. It's going to get heard. And it did. And people find things. Sometimes people find things that are pretty good. It doesn't happen a lot. Now there's so much content out there. It's harder. But sometimes if something actually, you know, and trust me, everything I do isn't that good. But every once in a while, one of them is, and I like to believe. There are very few that I think people really slept on. Do you know what I mean? I don't look back.

I don't have that catalog full of songs where I think, oh, this should have been, should have been. If they weren't hits, it's usually a reason they weren't. Is there one song you wish you had written? Changes daily. I love that. That's your answer. It really changes daily. I think at the end of the day,

best of my love by the emotions is a song That's not what I thought you were going to say I think that's the To me that's the most perfect record I can think of Or September by Earth Went and Fire Both of those Allie Willis Earth Went and Fire

One thing about both of those songs Is Maurice White Is They got feel good right I like feel good records I like music that's uplifting And feels good

You know I've only had two ballads work In my entire life When labels call and say, oh, this just needs a ballad for this record, tell them to call somebody else because I'm not that good. I like feel good. And I do it because it probably, I'm creating natural dopamine

for all my lows. I want to make music that balances how dark I can get. Turns out. Yeah. Pretty dark. Yeah. So it's like that's how I, that's what I need to get to to keep my sanity. And so records, those classics that do that thing are so,

beyond my capability. And I do my versions of them and they're never one one hundredth is good. And just those are the records. So basically I want to be Maurice White. I think I've just learned.

I mean, it could be worse. All right. Sorry. Sam has to receive a phone call from Carol King. Hi. Hold on a second.

Hi. Please let it be Carol. Okay. Rapping up. Hold on. It's my daughter. Oh, it's your daughter. She's good.

Okay. Okay. No. No. No. You know who called me in the car once that was a great flex. Who?

Ringo calls in the car. Fuck. I got about Ringo. I got Ringo calls. And the one day I'd say is Ringo called in the car one day, and I was driving around with it. This is like the name drop of all name drops. Is it Ringo? Please say yes. Oh my God.

No, it's my, you know, love this. This is what my life's devolved to. Who is my parking. My parking expires in 10 minutes in Mankisco, New York. Just an important factory. Can we call Ringo right now and get him on the phone? Fun fact. Definitely not.

But one thing I'll tell you about Ringo is it took me like five years, Stephen. get his phone number. And we, you know, we wrote a bunch of songs. And finally, I hit him up. I was like, dude, you got to give me your phone number. And he's like, I'm not giving you my fucking number. And I was like, okay, he goes, I'll give you like the landline in our house that goes to an answer machine. Neither will call you back or I won't. Oh, like Bill Murray. Yes. It was very Bill Murray. But, you know, truthfully, I did it because I'm desperate. So one night I left on a message and then I flew down to Florida. And I'm driving around Florida. You're going to dig this flex. It's me, my, my brother's brother-in-law, Peter, and Bill Cower, ex-coach of the

Hall of Fame coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers? Yeah. Jesus. And we're driving around a car. You're hitting home with Cousin' Jake who's fucking... Cousin, Jake. How about this visual? So we're riding around. It's Cower and Peter and the phone rings and I answer it and I hear, Hey, you don't think you're here for me tonight, did you? And I just go right to speaker with it with no exposition. Absolutely. I'm like, what's up, man? What do you guys? He's like, oh, what are you doing? And I just see both of their faces sort of do that thing. And I go, hey, Ringo, say how to Coach Bill and Peter.

There's a true story. And Ringo, definitely, I didn't, you know, I didn't go further on Coach Bill or Peter. What did it say on your phone? Did it say Ringo? No, so the thing about it is he's one of those people who comes with a, what are the block numbers or whatever? Oh, yeah. Okay, I have a couple.

So it says no quality. And so I think that's either, there's only three people I know who have that. It's Ringo, my friend Matt Nathanson, and another flex. Those are very different people. You've never seen them in the same room. Nor would you ever. Why would Ringo and Matt Nathanson ever do you? Ringo, Matt Nathanson, and my brother Ben.

My brother Ben calls from one of those numbers, too. So I always answer it. He's a very covert fella. I mean, shit. But I would say, so somewhere, so I answered it. It happened to be Ringo, and that was a great reveal for everyone in the car. Okay. that's all I got.

You know, the good folks, I just want to, I want to thank Amir. That was honestly, thank you. I'm going to get so much trouble for this. Hey, Jake, this might be my last and only podcast. Can we just say one thing? Yeah. Cop rock. Cop rock.

Why is that? 1990, Stephen Botchko. Midseason replacement, Sam Hollander. You love, good. You know the king of the name drop, like minutia? You know what was a great midseason? in replacement? Who?

What? Manimal. Google Manimal. What was that? You all weren't born yet, but if you know manimal... How old are you really? What we say so far? 28, 94.

Defied by Pi, carry the one. Honestly, a lot of people would say seven. You're 50. You're what? 52. I don't know what that is. What is a 50?

How old are you really? I don't know. You look like you piloted Jimmy Buffett's boat. I know. She looked like me and Jack Klugman at the racetrack, you know, gambling on the ponies in 1969. I think collectively that you and I look like Stafford and Waldorf from the fucking Muppets. And we could probably be them when we get a little bit older.

Or for you, not older. Aspirator for me. For you just now. For me growing down. Yeah. Okay. You look like you run a tiki bar in marathon key. Look, here's a thing.

I'm a festive guy. as I think you've noticed. And I'm spirited. I'm joyous until I'm not. You look like you celebrate Hanukkah 365th in Margaritaville. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for listening to me and Sam talk about songwriting in our lives and Judaism and all those things. Okay, I'll leave it this. Because we've known each other a while.

I don't read books. I read your whole fucking book, Sam. And I feel like you need to understand that that's a big deal. Let me tell you something. But hold on, no, no. You talked a lot. I'm talking. Okay.

So then you... It is your interview, but who cares? Okay. There's a great line where you're giving... It's one of your bonus cut tracks, whatever the hell you call it. You wrote, you write, stay wild and stay weird. And I feel like that hit home for me. The reason is, is because I think that that's important.

Like, if there's anything I've learned from Sam, it's like, he's a true original. He doesn't succumb to any of the bullshit. And he does Sam. And I feel like that, in addition to this shirt, is like, really sums the whole thing up. And I think that if you want to leave anything here, personally speaking, I want to leave with that. And I think that that's a good moment. Thank you very much, Sam Hollander. You're a fucking legend to say whatever you want.

It's a Paul Smith shirt. It costs so much money in addition to my, like, custom Ford Bronco and all of this. And my house in Bedford Hills, which like, hold. Can I say something? Can I say something? Yeah. Go ahead. Here's what I would say.

Most important thing I want to say about stay wild and stay weird. I thought that was so good. That should be your shirt. You need a marketing thing. I believe, I truly believe this is if you are blessed enough to do this with your life professionally and you catch some breaks and you actually get to, you know, turn some of these weird fucking dreams and realities, it should never be lost on you, how crazy it is, and don't conform. If you ever were able to permeate the system as an outsider, I was the ultimate outsider.

I didn't know how to play with inside the lines. I mean, honestly, I'm so unfiltered, and usually you're punished for that. But thankfully, the music business, if you have any success, you're actually rewarded for it, which is crazy. And so what I've learned in all these years of doing it is I just, honestly, I trust my own weird little inner mechanisms. I chase whatever I chase. And I'm just trying to have the best time possible doing it because I still wake up every fucking day. I can't even believe that I got to do this in my life because there were not a lot of other options.

Take it from us, two lawyers. Thank you, good night. Thank you and good night. Thank you for listening to Questlove Supreme. This podcast is hosted by Amir Questlove Thompson, Laia St. Clair, Sugar Steve Vandell, and myself, unpaid Bill Sherman. The executive producers are Amir

just walked into the goddamn room, Thompson, Sean G, and Brian Calhoun. Produced by Brittany Benjamin, Jake, and Laia Sinclair, edited by Alex Conroy. I know Alex Conroy. Produced for IHeart by Noel Brown. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio,

visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness,

fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's TWA% on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.