The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: The Jacksons

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

This week's guests on Questlove Supreme are THE American Music Dynasty. We can all agree with Quest in saying, "we would be pressed to find one person on this earth who has not been affected by their legacy." After selling well over 100 million records, recording and performing hit records for the past 50 years, providing a life soundtrack, in the form of their catalog for multiple generations to enjoy, The Jacksons join us! Listen as Tito, Jackie and Marlon allow us into their world following the reissue of four of your favorite Jackson albums being released this year.  Shhhhhhhh class is in session!  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%. I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange, modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person.

Listen to 2%. That's TWO percent on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Questlove Supreme. I'm your host, Questlove.

We have Team Supreme with us. We have Unpaid Bill. Here I am. There you are. How are you doing? Sugar Steve in the house. How you doing? Hi, Amir.

Hi, Jackson. Brother. How's that? What's up, Sugar, Steve? Yes, sir. We have, uh, Fon Tigolo. Yeah, man, I'm busting down a salad and a crab cake. What's your salmon cake?

I'm sorry. You know, I'm watching, trying to watch my figure these days. And I've been bump in trial for all day. I've said to let you know. I give it up. I had it on blast before I've been waiting on this all day, bro. Like, wow. And finally we have Laia, the first lady of the show.

How are you right now? Can you feel it? I don't care. We got to pay for it. Can you feel it? Yes, I'm done. Yeah, we might have to pay for that. Can you feel it?

I'll just say. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, I will just say that we're given the honor right now of having a conversation with an American, I guess I can say an American institution. Yep. Dynasty. Yes, an American dynasty for over damn near six decades. Our guests have blazed a trail of hip records, of sold out concerts, of Disney and choreography, of ground baking videos. Basically, I'll be pressed to find one human being on Earth who is not in one way, shape, or form, been affected by their legacy. And it's apropos that they're on the show now. Their entire Sony catalog has just called. up with their Motown catalog and that their self-titled 76 album 77's going places and destiny from 78

have finally, after all these decades, gotten the remastered treatment, finally on a stream platform. And, you know, basically words I'd never thought I'd say in this lifetime, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Questlove Supreme, the Jackson's. Yes. What's up, Quest? How are you doing, Chris? How are you doing? How are you all doing guys? And we good.

So, you know, slight disclosure. We've cheated already by talking to Tito. Actually, what? Our second episode, correct? Yeah. Since we've been the eye heart. Right. Our second episode.

So this might be rerun city, but I figured I'd figure out creative ways to ask these questions. I guess my first question off the bat is if one says 2,300 Jackson Street, what is your first immediate memory that comes to mind automatically? Well, this is Marlon, so I'm going to jump in first since I'm the youngest out of the three here. Okay. You should be the last one. No, brother. Not in these days. Yes, off.

Right, right. That house on 2,300 Jackson Street, our house in Gary, Indiana, first thing that pops in mind to me, that huge house when I was young, and when I go back to visit that little house that we all grew up in and we all practiced, that's where we got our start from, from that house on the corner of 2,300 Jackson Street. So you're saying that as a youngster, you thought that that was an average-sized, house. No, that was a mansion when we were young. Wow. Wow. Yes, it sure was. We did everything in that house, played hide and seek and rehearse. We put the, pull the furniture back and my father would

rehearse us in the living room. It was only a two-bedroom house with 11 people, but we managed to make it work. Maw's garage is bigger in that house right now. Really? Yeah. Jackie, what are your memories of 2300 Jackson Street? Well, like Marlon said, you know, it's a place where we all grew up in the house and a lot of fun memories there with loving parents and we love each other. We were bonded together. We had a two-bedroom house and I remember, you know, in our bedroom we had like bump beds that were stacked up together. Like five beds. Like a three stooges.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my sisters, my sisters, they all slept. in the liberal room. There was a couch bed that let out. And my mother and father slept in the other bedroom. But there was a lot of rehearsing in that house. We bonded together. And there's a lot of small concerts in the house because we had audience people coming from the neighborhood and in the windows watching us rehearse every single day. And we and that was pretty much our

audience. And that's a lot of fun memories. It was just an open door policy. Like one could just come up to the window. Oh, just come to the window. Oh, just come to the window. not walk inside the house. No, no. You can walk inside because there's no rude. No, you can do that. They will fight to get the best position in the window to look. Oh, okay.

We were doing. Yeah. Usually, and they're watching these rehearsals, then how long would these rehearsals last for? A couple hours. Yeah. Two hours at least. Sometime three, you know, so we get a ride. We take a break and take a 15-minute break and go back at it, you know.

Okay. Because most of the time we had rehearsals prior to doing the gig, because we would gig on the weekdays after school. We rehearsed and got to that gig about 7 o'clock in the evening in Chicago or what have you. Oh. Then be back, get back home somewhere around one or two in the morning, get up and go to school, which I did not mind because when we played shows in Chicago, people would throw money on stage.

And so Michael and I, you know, we're doing splits left and right and we get to keep the money. So when I went to school, we used to stop at the store and get a pocket full of candy didn't go to class. So Michael and I, we always had money. You all that ball in the second grade. Okay. Had a dollar in a dollar fifty cents. Wait, I wanted to know. I know that.

But you got five for a penny, Tito. you got five-foot penny back in those days. Okay. I know that you guys were an official five-some, what, 65. But back when the group was just a trio, back when it was just Jackie Tito and Jermaine, I believe. What was the arrangement of the group then before Marlon and Michael came along? Well, we were just basically a bedroom group. We hadn't done anything out in the public or anything.

people like that, we were just three brothers trying to be the Isley brothers or temptation. Trying to figure it out. Trying to figure it out. Yeah, trying to figure it out. How did temptation sound like this or the miracles or whoever? We were just putting it, you know, getting it together. But in a trio situation, who was the lead person? Who was the, in that particular situation?

But that time, Germain was singing a lot of lead. Plus, we were all singing at that time, too. But then later on, then Michael and Marlin joined, and Michael came in playing, you know, the Quaker oatmeal boxes. Yeah, oh, wow. He called him to playing the bongles on that, Michael did. And he has so much, him and Marlin had so much dancing ability and energy. So we decided, hey, man, we got to put them in the group, you know.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's how that started, you know. And so. and we had them in the group and then we started doing all these talent shows you know all these talent shows in time from my high school we had a lot of talent shows

going on. We were joining these talent shows rehearsing for the talent shows and we were win these talent shows all over the regional part of the state you know up Indiana we go to Michigan different places like that and and just went on these talent shows and on these shows there were Denise Williams

Earth when the fire was on some of these shows and, you know, these town shows like that, you know. I was going to say, yeah, Wanda Hutchinson of the emotions. Yeah. And Sheila, I believe, as well, told us that they would often run into you guys doing kind of the circuit. Yeah. Yeah, we did what they call the chilling circuit.

And actually, not only them, the OJs, it was the Shalites and us. And like you said, the emotions. And we used to do a place in Chicago called the High Chapparel. And Maurice White was with another band, and they would play. He was the drummer. Maurice was the drummer. Yeah. Kivok Simmons was the name of that band.

Oh, it was, Tito? Yes, Kibok Simmons. And when we did do those places, one time I remember, so a pig meet Markham was the main act. And they would have us on. You come to judge. Yeah. I see. Really.

And when we did the Apollo, you know, amateur stuff. You had Moms Mabley or Edda James where the acts that came in or Sam and Dave were the headliners and came on amateur night and did our thing and people enjoyed us. How many shows we used to do, Marlon,

at the Apollo? What, seven shows a night or something like that? Six or seven shows a day. Yeah, at the Apollo. Really? Yeah. So you would do amateur night each time around or was it at some point where you guys were sort of out of amateur night and just a featured act? It was amateur night.

And then we would do the talent shows and the five stair steps. We had a rivalry, I guess, between us and the five stair steps. And Michael would cry, Michael would cry his butt off. You know, sometime before that came on before us. You know, the crowd started throwing eggs out of them and stuff like that because they were there. And Michael would cry because he forget they're going to do the same thing to him. So we were trying to comment to Mike, just do your thing. Everything's going to be okay.

You know, he would cry like a baby because he didn't want them throwing eggs on them on stage. grabbing a hook and hooking them off stage. That's what they did. That's what they did by the day. Sam Man. Sam's. I was going to say, I know that, well, of course, everyone knows the legend of the Apollo, but for those other spots that were in the Chitlin Circuit,

like either the Regent or the uptown in Philly or the Fox in Detroit, was it also the same way, like if you were new, you were someone booing you off the stage, or anything? Or was that just the Apollo? Why, could you relax if you were at Chicago or any other place? It was more so as Apollo, but they'll boo you. If you're not good at Regal Theater and wherever, uptown, they're going to boo you.

You know, but, but, uh, the people don't play, you know? But did that ever happen? Did that ever happen to the Jackson's though? No, no, no. We were lucky. Yeah. Yeah, we never got the boo. yeah so we were scared of the book so we did the best that we could do i see it's stay working that

boot wait tito yes tito the world kind of knows the story of of you discovering the your your father's guitar uh-huh but i always wanted to know how was germane able to learn the bass was it a similar situation like who taught him how to play the bass well i gave jermaine bass guitar lessons on the bass, bass notes on the guitar, I should say, because when my father bought the second guitar,

he started playing the guitar that I was sneaking from my father, and I was showing, you know, the little things on the, on the guitar, but it was based up. So he was playing bass on the guitar, because as you know, the first four stories.

The first four strings, right? Yes, same, same thing. Yeah. And then what he did, he started studying James James James of Motown because we listened to the Motown songs and he started studying James Jameson

he used to play just like him and a young kid I mean he had it down you know singing and playing at the same time yeah okay so before you guys went to Motown you were on Steeltown what was the story of Steeltown like who owned

the label how did you guys wind up recording a single for them. Well, Stilatown was just a local record company in Garrianda. We really didn't, I guess, we were so young. We didn't know. We didn't know a lot.

My father is basically who took us and was controlling all the activities of his little boys at that time. But we were really, really young. I remember seeing a picture of the band recording the song, I'm a big boy now. We were all quite small little kids, you know. And it just had one take, and that was it.

Gordon Keith. Right. The budget wasn't big. It was nothing. You know, we could have recorded this song in our living room. Oh, in and out? Yeah. In and out.

Like you said, you were so young. Like, how did you look at all the rehearsals and all the shows and all the things you were doing? Did you think it was the most fun? thing you could do. I mean, I think it is, but at the time, did you think that what we had was the most fun when they say

keepers of the dream, we really had dreams. We all wanted to be like Jackie Wilson and James Brown and the temps. We wanted to be entertaining stars. We wanted to go to Holly, California

or wherever the stars lived and see It was fun too. That's the main thing. We had a lot of fun along the journey. But we never realized what a mark we was making in the world when we were younger because we were constantly busy and we would go to different parts of the world and get back to school.

And we could tell the class everything about the place. But don't get us wrong. There were times that we didn't want to rehearse. trust me, we'd rather be outside playing. And the kids used to laugh at us sometime and tell us, you're not going to get anywhere. And, you know, with the rehearsing. But my father, you know, made sure that we rehearsed

before we did anything rehearsed. We used to take breaks sometime and watch Batman or the Green Hornet, then back to rehearsal. You watched the Three Stooges. That's what you did. Oh, yeah, we watched them dog on three studious. Yes, we did. Three stooges.

Is you play any sports in school? We played a lot of basketball, baseball, because the baseball field was right behind our house. And if we weren't doing music, we was playing baseball most of the time. That's what we did. Or cricket. A cricket in the alley, yes, cricket. Wait, black people play cricket? Yeah.

Yeah, that's crazy, right? Yeah, we played ghetto cricket, but we played it. Skelly. Describe it, Marlins. Tell me how the game goes wrong. We used to set up like three cans on the ground at each end, and we had a stick. We all had sticks to bat.

Either you throw at the can or you roll it and you hit the ball, and you go back and forth, counting, and whoever got to a certain point, a certain number, won the game, and it gave you skills, because Jackie and Jermaine and they used to try to see if they can hit it all the way to the other field over the fence, and they did. and you can imagine someone running trying to get that ball and throw it back

and if you stick it's up and they knock down your cans, it's the other teams turn to come up and take a bat. Wow. Cricket by Marlon Jackson Lee's. That's what we did. Okay. Outside of moving cylinder blocks

from one end of the yard to the other end of the yard, a chore that my father gave us. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's not a sport, actually. Yeah, I was like, yeah. Yeah, get over. That's exactly what it. That's the exact definition of ghetto crotch.

No, well, when we saw that on the American Dream, I guess there's Jackie had to keep moving the bricks. What was that, like just something to keep you occupied for an hour or so? Keep us occupied, keep us from the gangs being in the streets. And it took all day. It took all day. It took all day. It took all day. And Michael and I couldn't pick up one.

the two of us carried one. And yeah, he would make us, when I get home from work, I want to see those bricks from that end of the yard to over at that other end of the yard. Wow. Okay, so explain to me the environment that was Gary, Indiana, in the mid-60s. Like, what is your father trying to keep you from? What is outside of 2300 Jackson Street? Well, there were gangs then lurking to recruit new young members, and I guess my father felt

that my sons would not be a member of those gangs. So he kept us occupied. And we did go out and play sometime in the streets, hide and seek or whatever. But majority of the times we were

working, moving those bricks around or rehearsing. But there were gangs sometime, and Jackie and Tito can elaborate on this more because I was still in elementary school. Go and Tito do you the thing. No, no, there was a lot of gangs around me, Gary.

There was, they were shooting. You can be on your porch at night because the ladies of the neighborhood, meaning the mothers, we get together and, you know, they mosquitoes are bad, so they have a garbage can fire going and join the smoke. And all of a sudden you start hearing, pop, cars speeding down the street, people started running and ducking. So there was a lot of gang. But the gangs, but the gangs never did mess with us.

They always protected us when we walked through the games. They were, they knew not to messily do you guys? Yeah, they supported us. We're making some positive noise, I guess. I don't know. Oh, okay. All right, that's new.

Were you guys first generation, Gary, Indiana, or were your parents from there as well? I don't remember from that. No, no, no, my parents aren't from there, but we're first generation from Gary. Yeah. Okay. So where were your parents from?

I'm just curious. I never... My mother's from Arkansas. And, no, my father's from Arkansas. My mother's from Alabama. What city? She's a Bama girl. Do you know the city, though?

I think it's Hartsboro. I'm like... Damn it. Okay, I thought it was Mobile. Yeah, just check it. Yeah, Columbus. Either way, her childhood wasn't so sweet. Yeah.

My father's from Lerros. Oh, wow. Okay. Oh, wow. A little about... I read once your mom, she was like a country Western singer. Does she use the same country? Yeah, what happened was with that, you know, at that time, you know, our television broke and we didn't have money to get it fixed, you know, so we were seeing... She was the avid country Western fans.

She loved country Western music. Charlie Pride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And different people. And we was harmonized with her singing with her, you know, And because no television, we sing with her. She came to my father one day. They said, Joe, your boys can really see and they can't harmonize.

He said, Kate, they can't. You said, Joe. Your boys can't sing, Keith. So she said, Joe, they really can sing. So she, you know, we sang for him and he got all excited. That's when he started buying instruments, going out buying instruments for us, all the instruments. So when you guys were kids, was he gigging at all? or was that part of his life done with?

Because I know that he did a few. When he had a little local band called the Falcons, he had a band himself. And he had they would come over to the house and play with my uncle. His brother played guitar and he played guitar. And we used to watch them play all the time. Just love them just watched them this gig. And to us, they were like big professionals.

And we watched them all the time. And they would play at the house. It was great watching them play. And that's how we learned about music. And just listen to all the Motown songs on the radio. stuff like that. And it's lying the family stone. Yeah, it's lying everybody.

Yeah, we sure did. It was amazing. So, Marlon, I know that you brought it up earlier, but I always heard about the legend of Mr. Lucky's, which I guess was sort of like your home spot, but what was Mr. Lucky's? Would that have been a strip club today or like? No, it wasn't a strip club.

It was a little nightclub. That one wasn't. In Geroniana. Yeah. In Gary, Indiana. And they paid us. We got paid $8 for our first show. And Mr. Lucky's.

That was the first gig that we got paid. And we were so happy about it. I mean, but $8 back in those days take you a long way. And those were the shows were Michael and Marlon. They would throw money on the floor and they would do the splits and grab the money.

And Marlon and Tito and I and Jermaine would be in a lot. And said, oh, they're getting all the money. We weren't getting on there. You know, we've We hear different accounts But I never heard it from you guys verbatim I mean, I've talked to Gladys Knight And she told me

She was the one And then Tommy Chong Of Chi Chi Chi Chi Chang says that You know Bobby in the Vancouver's I didn't know that he wrote Because you guys did a cover of it

I didn't know that he wrote Does your mama know about me? Yeah I didn't know that. Damn, Cheech and Chong, like Motown or Tommy Shang Motown Legends. So what is the real story? I know the angle, but who literally made it happen? Yes, I'm going to introduce you to this person.

That leads to Barry Gordon. Okay, I'm going to set the record. Well, we played a concert in Gary, Indiana. And for our mayor, Richard Gordon-Hatchard, who's not. longer with us. He was in the at the time. And so he was campaigning at the time. So Gladys Knight was his guest there, you know, and we happened to play the same show. So she happened, she saw us on the concert. She went back to Barry Gordy, told Barry Gordy. There's some guys in Indiana. That's incredible. You've got to sign these kids. It was Gladys who discovered us first.

And Bobby Taylor did this show the next year. He saw us to say, well, he went back to Barry Gordy and said the same exact thing. It was both of them. those people. But Diana Ross was his biggest artist. She's the one who brought us out because he was his biggest star. So she introduced us to the world. Marketing. Presenting. Okay. But it was Gladys Knight and Bobby Taylor was the ones who discovered us. That's true. All right. Well, true story. They're true. Moving, moving to Los Angeles from Gary, Indiana. How much of a fish out of water situation was that for you guys as far as watching the world that you see on television, which is how...

I would tell you, because I used to watch all the football games. All the football games, we got Chicago Bears, we got Cleveland Browns, and snowing outside, freeze. And then they were show, in an afternoon game, they were show saying they go charges, all of a sudden, just rams, right? So I'm watching TV. I'm in the snow, freezing my butt off.

And I'm watching TV, saying all these people they show the palm trees and show the people in the stands having a great time. I said, that's where I want to go. I want to go to Los Angeles. I don't know how I'm going to get there, but that's where I'm going to go.

That's where I want to live. That's what I said to myself. Wow. I don't know how I was going to get there. And some kind of way, we were silent in Motown and Very God decided to move his office over to Los Angeles

because he wants to get into the film business. Right. You know? So he moved his whole, entire office from Detroit. He still had office. He still had office in Detroit, but he moved his operation to Los Angeles, California, and he brought us over there

with it. Was there ever talk of you guys moving to Detroit first to be... Matter of fact, we did go to Detroit. It was in Detroit recording our music first, and then we went on to... How long were we in Detroit? About a year, two years, guys? Recording.

About a year? We signed with Motown in 1968, but... We told everybody and people But I didn't believe it. Because we didn't have any music out. It took over a year before we even got in the studio. Yeah, longer than that, Marlon. Oh, okay.

So some of that first album was recorded at the Hitsville studio. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of it. Yeah. A lot of it. The temps and all of them would come around. We would see all those cats.

All those people would come around and give us all kind of support. And they was saying hello to us. and Jermaine was trying to hit on Barry Gordy's daughter at the time. Jamain was, you know. You succeeded. Okay. Yes. Yes.

What, one question I had, if I'm, Jackie, you're the oldest, you may have the best memory of it. I was always curious to know about the corporation, Freddie Parenthood, Larry Mazzel. Do you have any of the memories of working with those guys? Deke Richards. Yeah. Mitzel. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, they had just got out of, they had just got up. College. From Howard University, just graduate from Howard University. They were incredible, they were incredible, they were incredible, musicians songwriters, and Barry Coady put them with us. We used to laugh at Freddie Parenthood and Fons Misesel

because we were, we were going to the studio, we see them, and they're on a little mop-head scooter, two of them. Right? Yeah. You're right, Marley, you're right. I love a studio. You remember that? Yeah, I remember that.

And we passed them up on the street, and they were coming to the studio, but they had to hit. They sure did. They were incredible. A lot of our, especially from a hip-hop perspective, I mean, I don't think a lot of people, our contemporaries, even equate that,

you know, the Mazzell brothers, their 70s catalog and all the stuff that they did on Blue Note records, Right. You know, with Donald Bird and even the stuff they did with like a taste of honey and all that stuff. Yeah. Like, I don't think they even equated. These are the same guys that also wrote, I want you back. I want you back in all those things. The love you save and all that. Oh, yeah, they were incredible. And they don't even know that their nephew was JamasterJ from Run DMC. They never put two and two together with that. But, yeah. So, yeah, I was going to say when you first get to Motown, what is, What is the basic work operation as far as you guys learn in songs? Well, let me bag it up for you.

I think you'll find this interesting. From Gary, Indiana, we went to Detroit to audition for Barry Coy. Right? And so we did a lot of Motown songs. And so Barry had this huge house, had a golf course in the backyard, the back nine, he had indoor swimming pool. You go downstairs further in the alley.

All the gangs. And so we get ready to Michael and I playing in the pool, having a great time. Jackie walking around biting his nails, damn they ate up his fingers because he was so nervous. And he used to get after Michael and I. This is serious, guys. This is our chairs.

Y'all fooling around playing with all the games and stuff. Get serious. I mean, we were kids. And all of a sudden, we get ready to do our show. No, he was All of us, all of our equipment was set up around the pool.

Yeah, had indoor swimming. Jackie, let me back up because morning us, we had already auditioned for Motown the day before. Barry decided, yeah,

I want to sign these kids. So he acts, he said tomorrow's Dinah Ross's birthday. I'm having a party for her at my house. And I want you guys to perform. And so we're around the pool. At this party, tell him who was at the party, Marles.

We're around the pool. And we do a lot of more times. And all of a sudden, I see Marvin Gay come through the door. Wow. And all of a sudden, the temps, the temps walked through the door. Then Donna Ross come in. Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson comes through the door. The four tops come through the door.

And all the song, we've got to sing their songs, because that's all the songs we knew. I saw all the big hits on the radio. We didn't have any new original material. So we're singing all these Motown songs in front of their face. David Ruffin come in. Wow. And this is the first time you're meeting them.

No pressure. No. Yeah. Yeah. This is the first time we meet. Yeah. First time. And this is their first time seeing us. And we're doing their stuff.

So. Well, I assume that the show went well because you're here right now talking about it. Yes. Trial by fire. How much? Yeah. Older. were guys like Marvin Gay and Smokey than you at that time?

Oh, they had about 15, 10 and 15 years of us. Yes. So they were like. Well, Stevie was kind of a peer, right? Yeah, well, yeah. I think, Jackie, you were like 15 or 16 at the time, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I heard your sister mentioned that Stevie actually might be related to you guys. Is that true? Yeah, he's true. On my mom's side, he is. Wow. When did y'all find this out? A lot of people don't know that.

Like first cousin, second, third. I don't know. You got to ask my mom, but all that. This is, to me, this is funny because we were, we were somewhere. And Stevie tells some, and I was talking with Stevie, this is at my father's funeral. And then, then all the way he told, he said, Amelia, give them all in my numbers since we cuss.

Does he call four in the morning as well? He's world famous for that. It's 4 a.m. calls. Yeah. We've, you know, I've been blessed. We had some great times, you know. It's what you do with that time and how you treat it. And we've had some great times.

Okay. I'm sorry, I got to follow up on this. So did you and Stevie, did you guys and Stevie want to know you were cousins back then? Or did this come up recently? No, we did not know. Matter of fact, Stevie did a couple of songs. on us during the Motown days. And we didn't know that we were cousins.

And those songs that Stevie did on us, they were never released, you know. And so I think Butterfell, no. Buttercup. Buttercup. I haven't done. Buttercup. Not that you have nothing, nothing song.

That's one of questions talking about here. Well, I know Jermaine took, you're supposed to keep your love for me. Yeah. Yeah. From the original checks. Was there any other besides Butter Club? as well more than I know

of course. Buttercup, you're supposed to keep your love for me. I think there was one or two more other ones. I forgot. Man, we did so many songs. Motown got so many songs that we can't, when I hear stuff,

we did that? Right. We lived in the studio. That's what I want to get to. You guys, I've seen, at least the Motown vaults, I've seen them,

and seen the catalogs. And to me, it's staggering. How big is it? mere kill people please you know we want to be ma'am i mean you know it was over 200 songs but the thing is like they're 200 completed songs and half the stuff didn't see the light of day so like what is can you walk me through how you guys get like do you have like mere seconds to learn it do you at least get a work tape at night before to figure out your arrangements no like how what's the process

of that we walk to we go in the studio they put after school after school jack We go out to school to the studio, recording studio, right? And the recording studio was right around the corner, right on Fairfax. And half the kids at the school never knew that we were going to the recording studio of the recording, I want you back, ABC.

They didn't know that. Not even a block away. We go to this recording studio and record these songs. And they put up the track, and we learned it and singing, and all day. We pretty much do a song a day, but we came back to finish it the next day. They really completed, finish it the next day.

It took us about a day and a half to finish the whole song. That's what we did. We had a, and the reason being is that we were youngsters, and we had a social worker that came with us. So she made sure that they didn't work us over three hours. So we only had three hours to. You did all that work in a three-hour? Yeah.

Yeah. That's a lot of songs. And Michael were going there and he, Michael would add-lib, to do his own adelebs, and he made all that stuff and all this adlives at the end. That's him. They didn't tell him that he made up all that stuff. Yes.

Wow. That's exhausting. Yeah. And that was almost every day. Yeah. Even the weekends. Yeah, even the weekends. Weekends were longer.

Yeah. So the next day, we come back to school on Monday, and we're on the Ed Sullivan show. And all we come back to school, and all the kids know. the staff. Wait a minute. These are the Jackson's. They noticed that being on the Ed Sullivan show.

We go back to school the next day. I'm in the classroom. And all of a sudden, I'm in the classroom sitting in the classroom. And all these kids from all the other schools would come to, come to Fairfax High School from all the other kids come over and just screaming after the screen, like, pandemonium. And the kids wonder, what's going on? Why are they screaming?

Well, they saw me in the classroom. And they started screaming like, They didn't know we were the Jackson. They didn't know. Now let me tell you something. This is my first time hearing Jackie's story about that. And I have to say, Michael and I, we were going to Emerson Junior High School. And we were, the same thing happened to us, to the point that kids just started going crazy.

And they had to pull us out of school because we were disrupting class. The whole school and they put us in private school. So you went to a regular school first. Yes. Probably. No other contemporaries of yours were in like Fairfax High, none of these things. No, we went. I went to, when we got here, nobody knew who the Jackson Five were.

So I went to Bancroft Junior High. Michael went to Garnett. I mean, Michael. Gardner. Gardner Elementary School. Then the following year, Michael and I went, went over to Emerson, Junior High. We only was able to go for two weeks because we were disrupting the classes. the kids were going crazy.

Wow. So you didn't get, so what's the, like in private school, is it more different because all of you are industry kids or? We were going to school with, with some of the main celebrity kids. They would go to the same school with us. And even,

well, this is a funny story. John McLean went to, if you know who John McLean is. John McLean. We do here. Wait, this is what you don't get. the most elusive person that we've been dying to get on the show is John oh so John to tell his story he said his mom brought him to this private school

right and he said mom I don't go here I don't want to go here and John said all of a sudden he's he looks so Tito walk in person yeah he said is that Tito Jackson Wait, hey, mom, I'm fine. I'm fine. I want to go here. Bye, mom. Bye. Bye, mom.

Because of y'all popularity, did everybody have to go to the special school now? Like the girls, too, and I don't know if Randy was here by now, but everybody just have to get to the freshman school? Yeah, pretty much. Eventually, they did, yes. Yes, they did. Eventually, yeah. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, that.

That's what took place. That's what happened with us. It's, you know. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%,

I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience. that dominates the wellness industry.

We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O-Persent on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at Tickford. Talk Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I know that your parents' concerns over gang culture in Indiana was one thing, but most of us that don't live in Los Angeles, most of us, especially when you're thinking of, like, for young black people, like gang culture was a part of life. Like, how is that avoided? Well, my father made sure. He laid down the law.

That's it. We had to be inside before the streetlights. came on. Oh yeah. That's what's supposed to be. This was supposed to be. You said, yeah, that's a bit supposed to be. All of this. That's black thing. Yeah, that's how I came up too. Same thing. You better not get caught outside with the street lights on. So, okay, was it still, okay, what was the chore situation at the house?

Like, was that, yeah, I mean, I'm certain that you still had to. Oh, yeah, we had to, we had to, we, we had to, we, we had to, we, we had to, Chores. We had chores. We had to wash the dishes. Even after we made it with the Jackson 5 and came out to, we still had chores. Well, y'all still lived in the house together, right? Yeah.

It was, I think, Michael and I week to do the dishes. And Jackie and somebody else had a week. Yeah. Somebody, you know, had a week. Yeah. So there was a sister in the house? Yeah. Yeah, we had chores.

Is the family resident still in Cino? that still where your mother is? Yeah, but we were on Queens Road prior to that. Yeah, we were on Queens, yeah, and we first got here, we were on Queens Road. Well, we first stayed at the

Tropicana Motel. Oh, wow. On Santa Monica. Is that on Santa Monica? A little Santa Monica, something like that? Yeah, yeah. And when I got there, the first time when I got the Cal, Los Angeles, I couldn't believe how people were living. I almost cried. I said, man, even living like this,

all my life living this good life like this and driving Ferraris and rural voices down the street. I mean, it was just amazing. I mean, people living in the hills and the palm trees and, you know what I'm saying?

And I'm in Gary Nanda, freezing my butt off and these people living like this. I've been denied. We live in a tropical area for a while. And then before we went to Queens Road,

we lived with Donna Ross. Yes. Oh man. Yes. And she had she had a house with white carpet everywhere

and white walls. I think some of the furniture was white. And she, she tore up the house with us. We all tore that house. So paint on the walls and paint the walls

like, yeah. Yeah, we had fun. Yeah. They also had a lot of money, but you had a lot of money. Yeah, she just sounds great.

No, when the person has white walls, you can't touch I never heard no black woman's house like that. Yeah, I was like, I was waiting for the other side of the story. Mary Wilson would come over to the house. It was so kind of so, it's amazing. Mary would come over, you know, for, you know. How's my babies?

Yeah. Yeah. So we, you know, we were young kids, but we had fun and they made sure that we had fun too. I mean, you know, they used to pick us up and take us to the movie sometime down. Matter of fact, Donald Ross picked my. Michael and I up when she first had her first baby. And this is where she lived on Maple in Beverly Hills. And we all went upstairs.

We all went upstairs. And she wanted us to paint some drapes because she was having a baby, her first kid. So we painted the drapes and drew figures on it for the kid. And we had a great time. You know, it was a small family. I mean, really, huh? Well, I want to know from Tito and Jack.

because you two are older. I guess in my mind, because I see the Jackson's as kind of the first family of post-civil rights movement, like all the struggle that happened before 1968, like you guys are the first to flourish into post-Civil rights activity. But you guys are also teenagers in Los Angeles. And you're successful at that. So I'm certain that there's also moments where, like, You're in situations in which you're the only black person there or you're driving an elaborate car that normally isn't, you know, associated with people that look like you. Like how hard was it to navigate in Los Angeles as teenagers where it's not so cute?

I mean, it's one thing when it's like Marlon and Michael who are like 1112 younger. was it different for a young black teenager in 1972, 73, 74, like the first half of the 70s? I had an experience once, because when I was about, I was in my late teens or early 20s, and I had gotten myself a Mercedes, the 350 SAL, I think it was. And that's when I had stopped to get gasoline for my automobile. And this is the time when they put gas in your car. You didn't have to do it. They do it for you. And I pull in and I say, what do you want?

I said, fill it up and can you check the oil? So I pull the lever for the thing. And, you know, on the car, you know, there's two levers. There's one outside as well. So I yanking up. I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me. So I go out and show him how to do it. He slams my hood.

Then he pumps my gas and dribble gas all on the side of my car. And then I go inside and I notice he's calling it on my credit card. So I told him, I said, can I don't want to pay for the service. So he goes to the people and he goes, wait a minute. He goes to a drawer, pulls out a gun, holds it to my head, and says, signs. Of course, I signed. I signed it. I immediately, this is before cell phones.

I go to a stop at the phone booth, call our security, Bill Brake, who's a detective. He rushes out to Chatsworth where I was immediately and go to the police station. I explain the story to them. they go over to the station, picks up the guy and come back, and then they tell us that if we, if we arrest, this man, we're going to have to arrest Mr. Jack and too

for not, for refusing to pay for service. So the guy walked, that's how, that's how it ends it. Yep. So, of course it was. And this guy, I guess he wasn't used to seeing a young black guy of, color, whether he's young or not, you know, it was such a nice automobile, because back then those Mercedes

were very high items. And that was only 19 driving one. Well, my story is a little different. This is, we had our TV show, the Jackson show. The variety one? Yeah. And, you know, and we lived in Encino.

And a lot of, and we were shooting that show somewhere, and not at the CBA, S lot, but somewhere else. So I would come through Beverly Hills and over the hill to go home. And my first car was a Porsche, a Porsche. And the police saw me driving. So he pulls me over. And he walks up to the car and said, is this your car?

I said, yes. He said, driver's license, such and such. I gave it to him. He sees Encino on it. Why are you going home this way? And I'm looking like, what do you mean when I'm going home this way? Yeah, you can go home any kind of way you want to. And who says I'm going home?

Right. And then he says, well, where do you get the money to buy a car like this from? And I tell him, you know, I'm an artist. I do records and whatever. And he wrote me up some phone he wrote me up a ticket for it, whatever it said. I gave it to our people to take care of. but I think Jackie, all of us used to get pulled over all the time, asking us, I got a real funny story for you after this.

And used to give us tickets and pull us over just to harass us. But here's my real funny story. This story is so funny that I could, Jackie, you know, don't get a tell. So Michael's first car was a Rose Royce. Right. Wow. And he was 18. But Michael

He parked He parked anywhere He didn't know So one day I'm driving down He didn't care He didn't care I'm driving out the street I thought it was so funny

I'm driving out of street The police got Michael handcuffed To a bench Wait What? Oh He was Because he had a lot of parking tickets

What? Did you stop? No, they probably Never heard that story. See, the journalists are asking the wrong questions. Wait, but Marlon, did you stop when you saw him? Yeah, I did, but you can say too much. And they let him go after us.

I mean, you know, back in those days, you could say too much. You pull up the street and you just look from behind in the mirror and make sure he all right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Marlon, but tell him the story when we went down to Alabama

for my mother's and they took Michael. He went into this, Michael went into this. Oh, Antique shop. Yeah, down south.

Tell him what happened. Yeah, because Mike, Michael felt like antique, so the security was with him. So Bill said, I'm going to go to a restaurant right quick. And the owner of the store, I don't know if he called the police or whatever.

He thought Michael was trying to steal stuff out. the story. He didn't know who he was. And I think he, and he got a gun. And then Bill's, and they took Michael somewhere. And Bill went looking for Michael and looking for Michael with Jackie. I didn't forgot some of this stuff. He took Michael to the back room somewhere and tied him down. Michael's in the back room somewhere like in the back.

Wait, wait, wait, what year was this? In the back shed. This is like, this is like in the 70s. It was the South. Yeah. It is the South. We're looking all of them. and Michael, they had him tied down

in the back shed. It's almost like the Klan was going to take him away or somewhere. You know, they were saving for that or something. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Now, I'll be real. The story started with Alabama.

Alabama. Yeah. Alabama. This can't end up going to end up. So we're looking for Michael all over the place. This guy had him tied down in the back room. And this was like an antique stuff full of books and all kind of antique.

Because Michael liked the old stuff. He liked buying stuff like that. Right. And they took him. They thought he was trying to steal something. And he took him in the back room. And we went in the store. We couldn't find him.

He was in some other kind of shit behind that store. He was in another kind of back. Jesus Christ. You remember that? Michael Jackson. Yeah. Was it hard to get him release? Yeah, we got a release and they realized who he was.

But we didn't let it go. We didn't put it in the press. We let it, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And if it wasn't him, though. Until now. It was like a regular... Right.

Right. If it was any other Jackson, right. It was Michael Johnson or something. Right. Speaking of Bill Bray, so I came across this, this, like, raw footage of a concert. I mean, I guess it was the Destiny era, but I was just looking at this footage, and I'm noticing that the way that security is handled is not like it is now. like there was no separation gate or something to hold fans back. Like basically fans were one inch away from, you know,

climbing on stage. And there's a point where I guess Bill Bray is giving you guys like a pep talk backstage on, you know what my signals are. Right. How often did you guys have to prematurely cut a show? Every show. Every show. All the time.

Oh, man. All the time. So getting through a show was actually a hard thing to do. Yeah, it was. Was it a song that popped them off, or was it just like the moment you stepped on stage? The moment we stepped on stage. The moment they said lies on me. I know that right.

That was a fantastic answer. It was pandemonium, honito. Yeah. And believe it or not, there was a few times where we had bomb threats, you know, and at one time they did find a bomb under the stage. They brought in the police dogs and all that stuff. So, you know, it's been different. So it's been different. We've been through a bunch of, we used to go to shows in armored trucks because even on the video tour, we had dead threats.

We sure did. Really? Wow. Yeah. You all brave for a bunch of. fucking musicians. Yeah. What was the decision to not,

I mean, you know, we live in a time now where, you know, especially in social media, just everything's transparent and there's, you know, nothing that's not revealed. What was the decision in not ever releasing these stories that things have happened for fear

that copycats might try to follow or? It just never dawned on this. So we, you know, it was part of our life. And I don't know, as we talked, the popping up my head. It just, you know, we never tried to keep, we weren't crazy about, you know, putting stuff in the press and, and those type of things. You know, we just move on with our life and keep going. I remember one time, long time ago, in Chatsworth, again, Chasworth, California. My kids were at a park and my son drooled in the grass and a whole bunch of, and a whole bunch of,

of people stood up and they were the KKK. And some other friend came and my wife and Jackie's wife and I jumped in the car and took off. They came with bats and chains and somebody called the police and said there was a bunch of black ladies with afro wigs, I mean huge afros and driving in the Mercedes down She's flying. None of them had an Afro, but they just saw the color of your skin

and they just said Afro. And it was crazy. They were coming after them to kill them. They were having a picnic and they jumped in the car, got all these stuff, and just took off. And these are guys with chains and bats coming after females. Were you guys able to, like, share these situations

and lean on some of your peers? because I'm sure y'all weren't the only ones going through stuff like this at the time. Like who do y'all talk to about how to navigate all this stuff at that time of y'all lives? Not to mention you got parents from the South, but still. Sometimes we take care of it ourselves. That's all need to be saying.

So what, Tito? You need to stop my family. Next question. We're from Indiana. I'm telling you take care of it all there. I love it. It was the way you said it, Tito. You know what you did. The bowler, the hat, that's what sets it off.

I know. That's what makes an official. So, wait, I think Tito answered this question when he came before. Who is the first Jackson to pop off? Tito, you said, Jermaine is the first Jackson to pop. To want to fight. Like if you buck. Yes.

Well, I would bug, Jermaine, would run home to mama and tell mama. He was a talented guy. He started. He started to fight. He started to fight then. Me fighting and run home and tell mama I'm fighting. Yeah. Wait, Marley, I have a question.

So one of my favorite J5 albums was get it together. And in particular, I mean, I realize it now when I was older that that was actually used. No, no, no, Mama, the cover of Mama got brand new thing, don't say no. I'm realizing that's you singing on it. how are you guys what would you say Fonte I'm having lost words you call it the

I would you say who say the operation of the division of labor division of labor yeah what is the division of labor as far as who gets what part or no well that song was produced by Howard Davis right so he would tell us

who's going to sing this who's going to sing that who's going to sing this even in the corporation you're going to sing this part, you can sing this part. And that's what we did. And that's what we did. Did you sing on any other Jackson songs that didn't make it? I think body language is another one that I sung on too.

He said that didn't make it. He said some of those can't. Can stuff. Quest has been so long. ago, I got CRS. Can't remember shit? Can't remember what that stood for. I couldn't have that.

I think that's CRS disease. Yeah, I sure do. You know, after you get past 50, you know, stuff come and go. Can I ask you a dancing question that you may remember? Sure. Wait, wait, wait, that don't mean I'm going to answer it. Okay. I'm going to get something.

Somebody going to say. How is it feel to be? the jiff of the moment right now. Right. For real, for real. Marlon's the jiff of the moment right now. Yeah, you're the meme. Yeah, that, yeah. That too, but I was going to ask you,

like, your dancing story, like, you talked about you and Michael being fans of Jackie Wilson and being a fan of dance, but I'm just curious, like, as you evolved, as dance evolved, like, who were some of the folks that you started looking to, like... We, believe or not, we used to watch James Brown,

like you said, Jackie Wilson. We used to watch Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, Ginger Rogers No, no, no No, no We're going to walking on our toes now You're what Timmy's going? Maul and Michael

go knock on Fed Astor's door No, no, let me tell that story Jackie Jackie So one day Michael said, Marley come pick me up I don't feel like driving

to the studio I said, okay, I'm going to come get you and we drove Michael's car his road source so he and I in the car Michael said well, Marla I want you to go this way I said, which way?

I said, why are we going this way? He said, just go this way. And then we're going through Beverly Hills. He said, turn down this street. I said, well, you're not going to studio, Mike. He said, there it is to drive down. Mike, I'm not driving down somebody's driveway. Martin, just drive down the driveway.

He could get out the car and knock on the door. It was Fred Astaire's house. Security. He got out the car, knock on the door. Fred Astaire wasn't home. I don't know where he was. And I said, well, that's where Fred Astaire live. That's his house.

And somebody answered the door and told him that Fred Astaire wasn't home at the time. And then we went on to the studio. But. They did the same thing to Stacey Davis house too, right? Yes. You all just walk us to people. One time we were in the, I'm trying to figure out why we were there, though. So we, Richard Pryor lived in Northridge.

So we, Michael and I, I don't think I ever told you all this, Jackie. So Michael now, we stopped. We went to Richard Price House, right? We knock on the door, he come in, he's talking to us. And what was so funny to me, the time we're leaving, and Richard goes to us. He said, yeah, that's the Mercedes I shot the tires out of when she tried to leave. Wait, what?

Yeah. When she tried to leave, right, Mama? Uh-huh. Do you remember that? I guess I was also asking, like, after Fred is there, like, as the time went on, from the 70s, the 80s, where there other folks, too, did you like?

Because I know Michael implemented new styles of dance and form into his thing, but Marlin, I mean, I know you do your thing. I see you, you still do your thing. Well, thank you.

Appreciate it. Yeah. Wait, can I add to that question? Yeah. What? Did you guys work with Charlie Atkins at all? No.

No. Never did. Never did. Never did. Who is the choreographer for the Jackson Five? Jackson. In the very beginning,

we got assistance from Super Bowl. Suzanne DePath. She helped choreographed some of the I want you back stuff there, Sullivan. But after that, it was basically, even before that, it was always

been the group during their own thing. Yeah, Jackie Michael and I, we fool around. Jackie Michael and I, until we realize we run out of time, then we say we better get serious with this. That's what we did on Motown 25. We spent almost two or three hours in the room talking, we look at it, hey, the show tomorrow,

we don't have any choreography for the one and two. Wow. Y'all did that the night before? Y'all did that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my question, what was your thoughts? This movie means the world to us, but to y'all want to know, the VH1 of American Jackson's American Dream.

Yeah. What are your thoughts on that music? You got to ask Jackie and Tito because I've never seen it. You lie. What? Seriously? No, I've never seen it. I've never seen it.

Marl and me, too. All right. Wait, seriously? I saw parts of it. I've never seen it. But can I tell you something? My father wasn't like that. They made him like he was so, I mean, he wasn't like that.

They wouldn't. They made him like a real bad guy in the movie. He was not like that. I have a good district. Yeah, it's for the movie. I mean, my father disciplined us because he had six boys, you know, and around gangs like that. He wasn't like that.

He wasn't like that. But matter of fact, that's how we learned how to dance. Dodging that belt. Right. I was going to ask you all that, too, just particularly about your dad, because, you know, he's passed. And I was watching the other day they showed the,

they have a new Tiger Woods documentary this on, this out now. And, you know, there's the kind of the telling, you know, you think of just the strict father that's just kind of driving the kids. And your dad has always kind of been just the symbol of just the hard, you know, disciplinary father. And so I was just curious to know

from in your guys on words, you know, what was that relationship like? I mean, you know, he's been kind of demonized in a lot of ways, but since his passing and just over the years, if y'all have, as y'all have grown his men and become fathers yourselves, how is that, how do y'all look at y'all relationship with your dad now?

When you realize, you know, you go back and realize, you know, when he was doing, was right. I mean, we came from a bad neighborhood. but Gary Indiana. And he, I mean, he kept us out of, out of that situation by keeping us busy, keeping us rehearsing. He saw we had talent. And he said, if you want to be something, you've got to work out.

And that's what he did. And back in those days, you know, you know, how parents raised kids was different, you know. Even your neighbors, your parents, I mean, your neighbors would get you. You know, that's how it was back in those days. You can't do that stuff today. It's a whole different. Today's different. But that's just the way it was back then, you know.

Today those are jokes Break their knuckles down in 911. Yeah. That must be stumping as parents and grandparents now seeing the way their kids are like disciplined. Yeah. Wow.

I called it. Yeah, it was a different time. When I look at, you know, when I think about, you know, your dad's legacy and just what he was able to help y'all build, you know, it's just, you know, whenever I see people being real harsh

about, you know, men of that time. I'm just like, listen, dude, like, white folk just ran up in the Capitol. What was they doing in 1959? You know what I'm saying? Like, what were, you know what I'm saying? What think about what those guys were up against back then trying to raise, you know,

all these kids and keep them out of trouble. Nine children. And working in a steel mill, like, come the fuck on, dude. Like, you know, you got to put that in context, you know? So I was always curious to hear y'all thoughts on it. I went to the steel mill one time and so I went to my father. worked. Man, they lift up that steel door and all that heat and fire came out and I said, oh my God, how does he work in a place like this all the time? I mean, I couldn't believe it.

Yeah, Jackie took us home and wanted to rehearse even more. It's better than being in the field field. Never will I. I dance to don't. Jackie, were you at one point seriously trying to consider a career in baseball at all? Wait, wait, wait, Jackie, bag that up, not consider. The white socks was looking at him. Oh. Oh, wait, well, what? Wow.

Oh, well, talk about you. I didn't know that. Talk about it, Jackie. Come on. Yeah. Talk about shit. No, my fact, we all play baseball. We all great baseball players, all of us.

And I was a shortstop in a pitcher, and they was after me and stuff like that. But, you know, I thought I made the right move by sticking with my brothers, because the singing career lasts forever. You can sing forever, you know. You can sing with bad knees. Yeah, but, you know, I did the right thing. We did the right thing to stay with the group and stay with the boys. Because I would see, you know, often in, like,

write-on magazine or whatever the periodicals were at the time of, like, you guys actually had your own softball team. Like, how was that arranged? like celebrity softball games versus each other would just be a thing of you calling them up or was it like some official thing that you guys were playing we had we had some of the coldest baseball teams we had uh we had willie guard on our team we had uh you're we had anthony david on our team from u sce and football we had the colas and all those guys played baseball too you know we don't they play college baseball we had we win the championship every year So Billy Crystal, Billy Crystal, they're going to get their team,

him and Rob Reilly and all of them. Oh, no, no, no. Yes, I need this story. They're going to come and play us. Y'all smoke the boys, did you? You know, Sam Watson? You know, Sam Watson?

He's always in the ring all the time with the fighters. With the gray hair? With the group. The words are you not supposed to? to say, but only he's supposed to say it? He says Sam was on our baseball, baseball. Sam was the great baseball player. He can play. Oh, yeah. Sound good play.

Wow. So this is. Because I would notice all your appearances on Soul Train, Marlon, we talked the most junk about you guys is sports prowess in basketball and softball. I didn't know if that was like an actual thing. Like there was a, no, it's serious. Then there's a picture somewhere. I saw Jackie playing basketball. Jackie used to play Marvin Gaye all the time at Marvin Gaye's house.

Didn't you, Jackie? Yeah, because one-on-one, he would call me over and we'd play 101. He said, Jackie, ain't paying no damn taxes, ain't. And he wrote a song about it. I can't pay my taxes. Make me want to holler. Right, right. Precent play all the time one-on-one all the time at his house.

Was he any good? Was he that? Yeah. But he would push you around. Marble played really rough, though. He's dirty, okay. Really? Yeah.

Yeah, when you're in, when you get to L.A., like who and older, who were your peers or, like, who would you hang with? Was it just in-house or? Well, maybe. Did you guys have, like, a relationship with the Silvers or anybody? that was remotely your age or anything? Can I say we just hung together? We stayed in the recordings to be all. We should do.

That's all we did, record, record, even on Sundays. They recorded all the time. All the time. And then when we go out and do concerts, we had a curfew. So we had to be in bed at a certain time. And moms will come and tell our security. I know my daughter's up in number one of Jackson.

Like you said, I can guarantee you they ain't where. one of them Jackson's. They might be with one of them band members, but they ain't with none of them Jackson's. I just hit bed check, and they all... I know. Our very first big concert. You know where it was, Molly? The very first big concert.

You know where it was? At the forum with... No, and I'm talking about that one. The very first big one, guess where it was? Tell me, Jacket's son. Philadelphia. Philadelphia Spectrum. Wow.

Philadelphia. He's in... That's where it was. Remember? Man. The first big start up, that's with Philadelphia. That's where it was. Okay, so there's a folklore tale.

One of the most famous graffiti writers in Philadelphia, his name is Cornbread. The legend of Cornbread is like the places that he would tag his name. And the reason why that Philadelphia show, the reason why I know about it, even though I wasn't old enough to know about it, is that somehow cornbread had managed to tag the Jackson 5 airplane with his name, which basically set his legend into like the graffiti world. He tagged the Jackson 5 airplane from their Philadelphia spectrum show. I don't even know that. Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, he's still living off that folklore right now.

He's like 63 years old. He finally signed a jacket for me after decades of baking for it. I want to ask about the move to Epic. You know, between, there's sort of that period in which past the beginning stage of Motown where you guys are putting the Vegas Act together, about to do the variety show, and, of course, you moved to Philly International Epic.

What was basically, I mean, were you guys trying to develop your music even before then were you guys writing actively writing and producing by that point or yeah we haven't we learned so much

you know by then with all the Motown writers and the producers it's like going to school there anyway because you learn so much they teach you at the same time and all the wonderful hits that we have with Motown who put us on the mouth

Barry Gordy and the whole crew and the crew of writers just amazing with the done for us. And at that time, our contract was running out. We felt that we, it was time for to start writing some of our music because at that time, we felt the music was kind of young, the ABC and a little bit, kind of bubble gummers, but it was the type of music that was geared to everybody to love. But we decided, it's time, let's to start writing some music. So we decided to no longer sign with Motown to go to another label where we can show them, uh, uh, uh,

our ability to write songs and also produced records. So they put us with Camel and Huff, you know, and we were so excited to be with those guys because those guys were known for writing hits on groups like Teddy Pendergrass and the OJs. The list goes on and on. Cowboys, the girls. That's my favorite game.

Cowboys the girl. What's the name of that group? Intruthers. Intruders. Intruders. We figured that if we get with the Jackson's kid with Camel and Huff, It's over with. It's going to be big time.

You know what I'm saying? What are your thoughts on those albums now? Like now over time? Oh, it's incredible, incredible, man. Gambling Huff, we got there. We spent time just talking and talking. We did the whole album in two weeks. Two weeks.

Man. Wow. Well, I will say my favorite material is still, I mean, the Gamble Huff stuff, I mean, enjoy yourself and show you the way. I mean, those are classes. But for me personally, man, I just loved when y'all wrote your own stuff. Like that was, that shit was jamming.

I just like, y'all, y'all doing your own material, man. That shit was just, it was great. So we wrote, you know, first we wrote two songs on the album. Then we, Gammon had wrote the rest and it took some of it. And all of a sudden, they gave us a whole album to start writing because, you know, I guess, I guess it was happened. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, um, my elementary school, was right next door to Philly International.

So oftentimes, like first, second grade, I'd see you guys running to your car on Broad Street. Really? Yeah, my, I went to a performing art school, which was, if Philly International, I think, was 310 Broad Street, my school was 313. So oftentimes you'd see like Teddy Penderg-Gra,

you'd see everyone outside. But, you know, of course, I knew when the Jackson's were in proximity because every girl in that school would just run outside. And it's like, oh, the Jackson's must be next door or something. But I asked that question about the 70s because it just hit me. Can you tell me who the group MDLT was? Because I collect a lot of records and probably one of the highest price 45s that someone tried to get me for was a Jackson 5 produced song called What's Your Game by MDLT?

what's your game it was like they were MDLT was like a I think the legends that they were on ivory ivory tower yeah ivory tower there were like four girls yeah that's my father's group

okay so they just saw like the Dinah Ross thing they just used the and of course the suck like me comes along it's like yeah I'll pay a thousand for that okay I get it now so that was just on his label but you guys didn't specifically

produce that single or anything, correct? I don't remember producing. We're doing anything. Yes, you did. You don't remember. Yes, we did. You don't remember it. He's right.

We did that. Okay. At least don't feel ripped off or paying for that. We did, ma'am. We did. Okay. So, Jackie, I mentioned this in your

brother's documentary for off the wall that one of my favorite moments in discovering that, that demo on Shake Your Body Down to the ground was you yelling,

I can't wait for the BGs to hear this shit. Yes. Jack, you said that? Oh my God, yeah, it's my favorite thing ever. It's right at, it's right at the end of the demo and it stops. And he's like, I can wait for the BGs to hear this shit.

My mom, mom we was at your house and then that song we were doing like a half a song we was messing around this messing around with a groove and we was making up something remember that? And I said something like I can't wait at the bs you here

he's right I said that and they called that stuff and that stuff went viral didn't it? A lot of people it did it went viral yeah like what were your I don't remember that I mean at that at that point I know that you had to you know something to prove and this was

the moment that you guys are going to step to the plate and produce your own material, but were you guys seriously eyeing like, okay, they sold 12 million units? That's us. Like, that's what we want. Like what? Oh, yeah. In your mind, were they the standards of who to be? Like, why not Earth went in fire

or P-Funk or I don't know what made me say that about the BG? It just came out. Right. If I want to be. BGs here, this shit. It just happened. I just named the BG. It could have been I could have been in it. It just You know, it just happened.

So we were just seeing something, like a little group, just making something as we go along. And I said, wait until the BG's here, this shit, or something like that. I remember something like that. Oh, okay. Ironically, we all get inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1997. Together.

Oh, together. Oh, man. Okay. Oh, that came out. BGs, yeah. I don't know what you ever. I also asked your brother, Randy, this question. So in terms of presentation,

and theatrics, like, you guys definitely raised the game higher. I mean, by that point in 77, you know, Earthwind Fire was bringing theatrics to the game and P-Funk definitely was bringing theatrics to the game. Man, it was tough then. I always wanted to know, though, why was Randy the designated adjectator?

Like, usually any explosions were because of Randy, either throwing you guys in a pit or throwing some flash paper and exploit. Like, why was he the one like? I know. It's like, you guys are brothers in the first 23 minutes, and then Randy does this terrorist act.

Like, okay, then I'm going to throw you this fire and it's going to explode and we'll have on new outfits. Like, well, of course, you're right. I've never looked at it like that, but you're right, though. Why was he the designated that guy that had to do? Because he wasn't in a name. Because he wasn't in the Jackson fire. That's why.

I'm just kidding. How did you guys conceptualize those shows, though? That job used to cry. When we used to go on the road and drive down and our driveway going out the gate hitting for the airport, he would cry like a baby sitting in the driver because he thought he was coming with us.

You know, so we thought he was. He pushed the button for the gate for the car to leave. Y'all didn't initiate him when he came, when he finally what became apart, did you? Like, did you? He was always there. No, but he, go ahead.

He was around, he was hanging around before he became, you know, full member. When he became a full member, I remember doing his concert one time. This is so funny. During his concert, packed to the raptors, all the way around, number of people. So Randy's on the stage. He's getting his shot to be on the stage with us.

He was playing his ass, because he can play some coos and buggles and all that stuff, you know. It's all of a sudden it was time for Randy to do a solo, right? All of a sudden, he gets the spotlight, get on it for him to play and do a solo, right? Right. And the music breaks. It takes the break. And Randy froze up. Randy looked up and saw all these people who started looking around like this, around.

He forgot his solo. He didn't play. He said, really, play, play. Play, play. He's looking around all these 40,000 people in there. Oh, man. Yeah, he didn't play, man. They came on later.

Yeah, he came in later. No, I'm going to tell you a story on the 30th anniversary. We was doing, you know, Shake Your Body, when we went to one corner of the stage, we ran to the other corner of the stage. So we ran to the, and y'all didn't even know this was happening on stage. we ran to the corner stage

and we do our break and we freeze and we're just waiting there waiting there, waiting there and Michael goes what's next, what's next? I said Michael, you're supposed to count it off?

What? This is going on this is going on stage and yours didn't even know it. Oh, at the... Oh, man. Oh, he didn't know the next cue?

No, the next cue was him when he was supposed to go to start the band again. Oh. And he's telling us, what's next? What's next? That's good editing for television. You're whispering.

What's next? What's next? I remember that. Yeah. So for those shows, though, how much preparation goes into that? And, like, who decides what musicians come aboard, who decides, like, Doug Henning is now, I'm assuming that's Duck Henning that helped stage. The first. The only thing Doug Henning did was the magic.

That's all he did. Even introducing magic to a show. Like who, like, what's the pre-meeting, the pre-meeting situation like before that even? Before Jackie, you might not know before you all came. Michael and I went and we met with Doug Henning to look at all whatever magic he had. And we picked the one, we picked the one that. goes up and the explosion there

that would work for the show and then you all came the second time we used Mackey it wasn't Doug Kenny Jackie who was I forgot who got he's on he's on come on Copperfield

no David Copperford he's right oh David Carter oh shit you know he's big he's right he's right he's right

he's the one but what was the decision to add those elements to the show that just came out of nowhere. Because, you know, at that particular time, a lot of acts were doing something similar to that, you know, they had something special like a...

Robes. It's like an illusion or something like that. Right. Some type of illusion. Right. Yeah. And we decided we had this to the show. It's going to be something incredible, you know,

what I show because we've always had a high energy type show, you know. Okay. People dancing and... a lot of energy and pretty much a nice size production. So we decided we add this to the show, it would just go over the top, you know?

Right. And that's how we were thinking. I was going to say, I'll let my I'll let the listeners know that, especially watching all this as like a nine, 10 year older, no one has utilized slow motion effects.

Yeah. Better than the Jackson's. Like practically every variety show. they were ever worn. There's a moment. I mean, I thought you guys could fly because there's always some point in that performance where you guys are either running or airlifting like seven feet up in the air. And I was like, yo, the Jackson can really fly like that. I didn't realize until later that, you know, that's called post-editing. But I just thought you guys had magic flying ability.

I want to know how you guys, you know, we were talking about, we're talking about, you know, the CBS years. how when you guys left Motown and, you know, how did y'all kind of repair that relationship with Barry Gordy later on? Like, how did he, you know, take y'all leaving and, you know, where's y'all's relationship at with him now? We're cool with Barry Gord. We've always been cool.

We've always been cool. You know, business is business. Just a business decision. And we were young. It was a decision that my father actually, you know, made. And so we moved forward on it. But I think one of the, I remember someone telling me,

Jackie, you might have, that Barry Goy said, the worst thing he ever did is let the Jackson Five get away from Motown. Man. Yeah. And there was no, like, space or room for any discussion of, okay, how many songs do you want to produce or? I'll call your bluff and see if you guys will, Like, did he really think you guys wouldn't leave or anything?

I don't know the details, but I think basically he felt that it wasn't broke. Why try to fix something that's working? You know, so basically, I don't think he had the, we had never wrote or produced anything publicly. So I think he just felt why changed things. Too much about it. Yeah. 2%. That is the number of people who take. the stairs when there is also an escalator available.

I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts, and more, to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

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You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

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I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill,

waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because, a crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your I have questions about the triumph album because that's where individually you guys really came into your own as far as songwriting and producing is concerned.

Side note, Jackie, you've actually written my favorite Jackson song of all time. Like your ways is like my all-time favorite song in life. No way. Oh, God. Yeah. No doubt. I mean, no offense to you other Jackson's, but you know, that's. You know, where you go up on your ways?

That's the way I go up for give it up. I love, I know Marlon, like, that's you, you sing and leave with Michael on that one, man. Right. I love that song, man. And I thought y'all really, was y'all that intense? Y'all trying to go for kind of the yacht rock kind of, I guess, that, you know, that kind of sign. No, it just said that's what the song called for. So that's what you get it.

I love the record, man. There's magic that happens in the studio when you're working. All of a sudden, somebody hit you with someone, and there's something. song needs this, bam, so you do it. You know, it's, you know, it's just work. It's just, you know, you can't go in and say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that. It doesn't work that way. You know, it's a feel.

It's a, you know, that's why I try to tell some of the kids today, and with all these electronics that they use, and I tell people, how are they supposed to get the sound the way that instrument really sound if you never heard that instrument? Right. Right. And these three albums that were just released a couple of days ago, they have great songs on the songs that never get that attention, you know what I'm saying, like your ways.

Now they're sticking those out and they did some remix them. They sound great. It's really, I mean, it's amazing. Blues away is one of my favorite. Yeah, they sound great. And that's what you get for being polite and things like that. Yeah, that's on there too. Yeah, all that stuff on there.

It sounds great. Different mixes on it. How do you guys write the songs together? Well, we started writing, we started writing the Destiny album when Michael was doing the Whiz. That's what I wanted to know. How is it like, what was the process of doing Destiny while he was doing the Wiz? Did it come out before or after? Well, Destiny was after the Wiz, correct?

Right. Yes. Right. We were getting to studio and just start writing songs. We, you know, meet up at noon and, you know, we're going to spend, you know, four or five out, five hours. was in the studio and we're going to come up with some stuff and write some songs. And sometimes what we do, Tito had this big camper, you know, with the three stooges on. And we would take it out to the beach and sit by the ocean and write lyrics.

We do things like that and go out in different places and go in the camper and just write lyrics and come back. You know, spend about five or six hours out, you know, Pacific Ocean at the beach and park the camper. sideways and just look at the ways and we have food in their sandwiches and we write lyrics and and write songs yeah and they go back in the studio and record yeah we all had our own recordings feels too at home so oh okay got you man I must know for all the people of my generation so this song came out I guess I was four the video for can you feel it they yeah dude that was the scariest most awesome shit I'd ever see Can I piggyback on top of that?

Bro, I was so... Can I pick you back on top of that? See, you are four, can you feel it? But try explaining to a seven-year-old this reflection shit for blaming on the boogie, which absolutely scared the shit out of me as a kid. Because Soul Train would come on at one in the morning,

so watching you guys with this reflective shit and like hear my dad's musician say like, oh, that's what an acid trip is like, Amir. Like, again, I know you guys are one step ahead of technology with everything that y'all done. But what was I mean, yeah, blame it on the boogie and...

I got to look at that, because... Can you feel it? No, I'm not trying to make a night. Can you feel like, they were big, right? Yeah, I was like, you these big niggas just sprinkling stop. I was like, I couldn't get away from it. It was great. I think by that point,

you guys are in your mid-20s, almost 30, so it's different, but... Sprinkling, sprinkling. Yeah. When you're watching, when you're watching under the age of 10, it's a whole other. It's a different thing. Blaming on the book he used to actually scare me, like, just to watch because I couldn't understand this whole reflection thing. And that scared me.

Then came Michael with Thriller. Thanks. Yeah, Thriller that. No, we were. After scaring us for two years with that shit. You're big ass marbles chasing Michael and don't stop to you get enough. Like we were used to it at the time. Yeah.

But yeah, even when making, okay, so in doing the blame it on the boogie video, was that just like 15 minutes out of your life? Like, oh, what do we do? We go over there. We dance. Okay, that's it. Like. And those are just a fact we put on there afterwards, you know, you know.

How long did that whole process take in, like, just to record? You just did like a couple takes of it and then that was it? Yeah. Yeah, all the work is really done in the editing room on a lot of those videos. So crazy. Watch it. And it's done on a green. A lot of stuff is done on a green screen or a chroma key, whatever you want to call it.

Back then. Yes. And I mean, today they have it a lot easier. You can do stuff on your computer and everything is at your fingertips. But it wasn't that way back in the day. Not at all. Who chose the musician personnel for those. records because you guys had like the monsters you had like right feeling games

Nathan Watts and great feeling gains yeah explain working with great feeling gains the those guys basically hung out with it they were like trench of our we hung out yeah we hung out a lot yeah we hung out a lot together all of us great's been on the show allie Williams Ray Parker we all right Parker we all we all hang out we all hung out together yeah Ray Parker uh played on a lot of Jack material. You know, David Williams. Yeah, he's, David is, I feel like an extension of, I mean, he's Billy Preston as far as

I'm concerned to you guys as Beatles. Like his guitar sound is like. Yeah, it is. People, even our band members, man, David got some bad guitar leaks. You know, how did he get there? I said, we told David what we wanted him to play. So, so we come up with a guitar. our head and we tell them

how to play it and how we wanted to sound. And then we go back and what made that, David's a good time playing. He already had bite. But to make it even stronger than what it was, we were double. He was incredible. He was a master

of locking it down. Locking it. He would lock it. Like, do do do do do do do do do. Do do do. Yeah. Do do do do. But he just didn't play like he would bite it when he played like he's like he's pulling the strings. No, it sounds like that.

Okay, David, we got to do another take. Okay, wait a minute. Let me get a piece of my chicken. Yeah. What? He had some fried chicken on the side. Yeah. He liked to get the grease on his fingers.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I know what I want to ask. Okay, I cheated. it. I have the stem, so I've heard it. I got to know. Okay, I'm assuming that because of how time has to be edited so that an entire album side can fit. Right. Jackie, on wondering who, why was Michael's bridge taken out? Was it just to cut? Was it just to cut or edit so that? so that you didn't go over a mastering. Let me explain what you so the listener is going to understand.

Back in. Okay, okay. Sorry. If you had too much low end and you try to master it, it would spread and eat up more of the record. Right. You have to master and get the right sounds and get everything. It's not that way today,

but, you know, and we go to Bernie Gretman mastering. He did all the mastering. And a lot of times we'd be in the studio. I mean, how many minutes is it? You know, because we only can put so many minutes on a record. On the side. Right.

Yeah, yeah. And if you got a record like shake your body with a lot of low end, then your minutes get less because it's going to eat up more space. And so we will always keep track of the time on how much time that we had to put on there and get in there. And sometimes we had to make edits. That's right. So it'll fit.

So my question is, though, I mean, you know, walk right now is a gargantuan time, so on seven minutes. Right. Like, why not edit from Walk Right now instead of taking like Michael's part out of wondering who? I mean, no one misses it because no one's ever heard it. But I thought that was a very curious edit and always wondered. Why did he take his part out? Well, you could have saved 23 minutes.

You could have shaved 23 seconds from Walk Right Now, but instead... Tito knows that answer. Tell him, Tito. No. Jackie don't know the F. We don't... It just happened. Oh, okay.

We weren't feeling it. It was just happening. But on Walk right now, we wanted to capture every sound. It's not Walk right now. Walk right now, ma'am. Or walk right now. Yeah. Anyway.

But, uh, We had, the percussionist, Paulino DeCosting used to come in the studio and he have all his toys around him and all that stuff. Right. So we was trying to get some sound. Oh, a laugh for him on. Yes, and he would be laughing, playing, but he can play his rump off. And we want to make sure that we kept all the stuff he did, keep all this stuff.

And on walk right now, one of the things we did is we took the, tape. We splice it and we took the tape and we played it backwards. Yeah. You know, so we, because, you know, computers today, you can do whatever you want to do, but back in those days, but when you do that, you've got to make sure that it's in sync. You got to be on the down beat. And it takes, it took a while for us to get that down just the down down. It wasn't something that just happened like that. And we're breathing over over the engineer, make sure he splice it at the right time, right spot, because you don't get a second chance.

Right. Exactly. You know, and he's nervous and got to raise a blade and, you know, then spice, put it all back together and we listen to it. It ain't on the downbeat. Okay, we got to come back, reverse it, put it back together. You know, so it took, it took some time. Of course, you know what we mean, right?

You know, right? No, I totally, look, I, Steve, I'm surprised. Steve's not weighing in. Probably of any album that I've studied the mixing and mastering of is probably the triumph record. I asked well, yeah, the last

couple years of my life have been lost. No, yeah, for my 40th, I asked back when L.A. Reed was president of Epic, if I could if he could send me all the all the stems so I could study. And yeah, Walk right now had a

lot of tracks on it. Like, even that part with DeCosta's solo with all those percussion things like just the pain stick and you guys did it without pro tools. So. Yeah. And there were no pro teams back into.

Yeah, I know. You guys had to make that shit up. Marlon, by this point also, you were doing, producing yourself working on a Betty Wright's record. In addition, your sister, Janet, owner. Can you talk about

your first forays into outside producing? Well, don't stand another chance is a song that John Barnes and I wrote. Can you also explain the Sherylene connection with that? Because there's no

Charlene connection. Well, I have a track of a Sherilyn song singing the same rhythm track, but just new lyrics of it. I never understood the difference between... I've never heard

that. Yeah, it's called love Hang on a second. Mom, that's question. Mom, Chris got stuff you don't even have. Quest love, mom. That's it. This joke could have been up on Mars and everything. I actually asked, I was confused about it, and Jimmy Jim had told me there's, yeah, there's

a song that came out on her instant, not the instant love, album, but it's called Love Rush. Love Rush. It's on the Preppy album. So I wanted to know if you, like, what was the working relationship with John Barnes as far as

putting that song together? We just came in and John was playing this song and he wanted me to do the lyrics and so I said, yeah, let's get it done. Let's do it. And so we worked on it together. John and

John Barnes and I used to hang out all the time. He used to come over to the house all the time. We just start writing stuff and doing stuff. And working with Betty Wright also. What was that process? Betty is a great person. She's a, you know, rest in peace. She just passed away.

Yeah, pass away. Right. But she was a great woman. She's a great singer, too. And on that album, Luther did a lot of background stuff on that album before people knew who Luther Vandross was, you know. And I had a great time in the studio working with Betty. And, you know, she's funny.

She's the vocal coach as well. You know, and Betty knew every damn body. You know, so when you needed something, she said, don't worry, I got it. You know, we're calling people to do stuff for us. And I called in John Barnes to come in because we had this band that was doing these tracks with us. And the tracks kept swimming. and the drama just couldn't keep time. And so the Lynn machine, the drum, the lin machine had just come out.

Right. So I told John to stop at my house and grab my drum, Lynn machine because, you know, I knew how to program that machine to make drums sound like, to make them sound like real, like real drums. That's the whole key. Actually, Jackie, for you as well, I know that your solo album came out in 73. Are you even aware that, is it him or me, is kind of held up in high regard in sort of hip-hop circles as kind of a, well, because it has a famous drum break on it that, you know, an obscure album can suddenly become like, No, I wasn't aware.

No. Active. Okay. Yeah, I was going to say, like, is it him or me? I wanted to know about that song. Is that to you just like? It's funny you say that because I noticed my boys, I got twin boys here. They're very young.

And over the last two weeks, they've been playing that a lot in the house. And I was hearing it. I was upstairs and I was here. Who's that singing? And it was me. And my boys are like, they're seven years old, you know, twin boys, and they play all of our, all of our music. Right.

But all of a sudden, they was playing my solo album. I haven't heard that stuff in about 20 years, my solo stuff, maybe longer than that. And it was playing, and I was really, I was really grooving all for me, you know, thanks to them for just bringing, you know, to my attention. It sounds great, you know. Yeah. A lot of time when I tour, people ask back.

Aspect, how come you don't do these songs? You know, when I do the meeting, read that, how come you're not doing these songs, you know? For, again, for hip-hop producers, like, that album is, is one of the, you know. Yeah, it's one of those things, yeah, it's one of those things. Yeah, that just caught on. So for hip-hop collectors, like, is it him or me is, like, one of our, one of our favorite songs. But actually, for the both of you, with you, Marlin, and with you, Jackie,

working on Baby Tonight and your album was Be the One. What was that process like? Like finally working on your solo albums in that time period like after the victory album and those things like, what was that

process like for you working on those records? For me, it was, well, I had a studio in the back of my house so I'd get up in pajamas and just go in the studio and spin up. on a practically almost all night there and just come up with a bunch of stuff or, you know, in the studio. And there's a lot of stuff that I have

that was never released or, you know, hasn't been out. And some good stuff, too, I think. I was playing some of it the other day. And, you know, you've been doing it all your life. So it's almost like second nature is not something, you know, that you walk. Oh, well, it's like, okay, got to get another project done.

You got to do this. I mean, we grew up in the studio. We, from young kids to now. So when you get in the studio, you pretty much know the ends and out, you know, how to work the boards, how to engineer the stuff, you know, what you're looking for. So it was, it wasn't that difficult, but it's fun, especially when you start working on some stuff for yourself. you know, you try to make it fun, but you want to make sure, you know, you try to capture what you're looking for. But it wasn't that difficult. I mean, you pretty much use the same guys that you always use on the Destiny.

You call in Greg, filling games to play some stuff. David Williams to play some links for you on some stuff that you want to do. You know, you get with Jerry Hale or somebody and give him the horn leaks you want to, he go right out the chart to do. Let me just on it on this. And one thing about these, these. artists that we had, these, you know, like I said before, these artists, they hung around us as friends. So they knew everything about us. They know exactly what we were looking for. They were friends of ours. We hung out together. We went to dinner together. We did a lot of things.

As a matter of fact, they were our age. I mean, they grew up with us. So everything came to nature. It was easy, you know, quite easy. I was going to say, Marlon, one of the bands that I like is gritty-pillity. And I know that Fred, Fred Mayer, I've worked on the album with you. What was it like, working with him? Fred, Fred, Fred was cool. Because it was my first time.

Fred's one turned me on to the Ad One. I don't know if you're familiar with the Ad One drums. Drum, a kit. Is it, yeah, it's the same kit that I feel Collins used on, I can fill it in the air tonight. Oh, yeah, okay. Is that, is that, is that sound. And Fred

turned up and that and a matter of fact I bought one. And we came up and we wrote a lot of stuff together. Yes, I like Screeley-Politi too. Dang, you'd be doing your stuff, huh? Yeah, yeah. He had Jackson's like, I know my Jackson's. He had a sound. He had a

sound, Scretty Panetti. Yeah. Scriti-Penity. The people are people. I got a whole thing of notes here. So, I got to write that one down too. Scriti-Pillette. Gritty Palinit. We talked about them on another episode. I can't remember who it was.

We went kind of deep on them. Yeah, I was going to say, no, we're not just thriller bandwagoners. Like, we're, you know, we know the whole spectrum of the entire work of, you know, all nine of you. Actually, wait a minute, Fonte, we're talking about scary videos. The one we never mentioned was freaking torture. Oh, yeah, torture, yeah. I never, yeah, I didn't watch that one. I didn't watch that one.

Jackie, the eye and the hand. Why? Yeah. Ooh, that was the freaking. Torture is a great song. It is. No, it was a great song. But now just think about the eye and the hand and like, ah, the slime.

Love story. We're on the victory tour, right? The very beginning of the victory tour. And at the time, I was dating Paula Abdul at the time. I was the one who... Drop them, Jewel. Whoever that is. Right.

Who? I was the one who got her in the industry. I mean, when she was a Laker girl, I remember sitting on the floor. Paula Abduke. Did you get her in the nasty video? Me and Marlon had seats on the Laker seats on the floor when Magic Johnson was doing their thing at the time. And I'm sitting on the floor and every day I'm on the floor, walks, around every day before the game started.

Denzel would come over and say hello to me. He comes in Lake. And I think he just came off his first big movie, his first movie, and he would walk around the place, and people really didn't know who he was. And he would come over and say hello to me, but he's Denzel today. But anyway, I'm sitting on the floor, and all of a sudden, Paula comes over, and another girl comes over, and they want an autograph, you know. And all of a sudden I signed the autograph.

And then she goes back and sit behind the basket. You know, where the Laker girl sit there, sit behind the basket. And all of a sudden, Sam Watson come over and says, Jackie Paula wants to know that you want to have coffee after the game. I said, sure. I said, to tell her, yeah, I'll meet her after the game. And so we went to have some coffee. And we became very good friends, you know.

And we dated for like four years, you know. Next thing I know she's doing Janet videos. I put it with Janet. Me and John McLean put her with Janet. She's doing all the Janet stuff. And next thing, we go on the Victory Tour. And we have, we in New York City. So we had a cattle call, people, maybe 300 people, to be in this video.

And she helped me arrange the video for torture video. And all of a sudden, I said, Paul, I want you to choreograph this video. She said, no, I said, Paula, I believe in you. You can do it. Don't be afraid. You can do this. And she did. And she put it on.

That's the first video she choreographed? Mm-hmm. She put it together. Yeah. Slime and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yikes.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, okay. And subsequent, well, I assume that she also did the body video as well, because that was, well, what was kind of a video of a, Cattle call of... No, Paula didn't do the body. She didn't do that big.

Oh, snap, okay. No, Michael Peters did that. Oh, Michael Peter. Ah. Yeah. He was my daddy's friends. The legendary Michael Peters. Yeah, Michael Peters are bad.

I don't care what you all said. Well, rest in peace, man. Can I ask for a question? You guys were talking about bands. I just wanted to ask about your touring bands because you imagine that like whatever the audition process is must be crazy to audition for the Jackson's, but I know I was lucky enough, like, I don't know,

seven years ago to be a production assistant on a Jackson's tour. And you guys have, yeah, but I went to London with y'all. I went to the Isle of White, and I went to a Biloxi. I didn't know this, Lai. How did we met? Yeah. That's what you were.

She, you were there? See, I was helping out with Bill Brown and Nick and everybody. Oh, really? Yep, helping you in the dressing rooms. Listen, I was on my hustle when you get fired from radio. you got, so, you know. So because love to Bill Brown. Wait, I didn't know this.

Yes. Did y'all know this? No. I thought I mentioned this to Tito because I took a whole stuff with Tito. Yeah, I toured with the Jackson's, you know. One time I worked for the Jackson's and it was just amazing to see that like the band that y'all formed was not only just some of them were young. Like your music director, Brandon at the time, he was like 30 early, maybe 30, right? But just a dynamic, amazing, stupendous band.

And you combined it with some OGs. But can you just talk about the process now to put together a Jackson van? Who's playing bass, by the way? Brandon in your current band. Brandon Brown. Brandon is young Brandon. He won an Oscar when he was for a 36 Mafia.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, he's killing. Yeah, Brandon's a bad boy. He's killing, yes. And your drummer and your drummer and your percussionist? Oh, my God. Yeah.

But what is the process now? But what's the process now? How did you, how do you decide who's good enough to? Well, you know, you know, when those guys come in, they come in knowing the music. They come in playing everything. Because they grew up on it. I was going to learn it.

Yeah, yeah. They come in knowing the stuff. You know, when they start playing, I said, oh, my God, these young cats, how do you know this stuff like this? You know, and they grew up playing it, you know. And you just polish them up a little bit, but they pretty much know it.

And another question, since you guys are going to still tour right after COVID because y'all have been touring. Okay, so can you tell people your routines, your dance routine seem the exact same? I mean, from the freeze that you talked about, like everything y'all do, your bodies move the exact same. Is it the exact same? And how do you all maintain that? Tito gave me some quick, like, this is just what we do answer. But I know, Marlon and Jackie. It is.

You know, once we, you know, we can be off-says for the longest time. And once we get together, somehow it just comes together. It comes that way because we've been doing it for so long. We just know each other's moves. We know, matter of fact, we know where Michael would be on stage, you know, in any given time. We know exactly where he would be on that stage. Even today, if we go on stage, you know. And that's how it worked.

We just, it just works that way. How do you make sure your bodies are still able to keep up with these moves on a daily? Sometimes it hurts. You're like shoveling. You know, when you're on stage, if you try to, if you think of a move and try to do it, it doesn't work. You just got to feel it and you do it. You don't think about it. That's the bottom of life, you know.

Y'all brothers, y'all take vitamins and things or like any kind of. Yeah, we do. We stay in shape. And plus, you know, like our show is like a high energy show. And it's like working out to me. It's a good workout because I get a break workout. I'll subscribe a lot. but only it, plus you get a check at the end of the day, but, you know, it's cool.

Let's talk about it. It's like going to the gym, you know, it's like it's a great workout for it. We love it. The main key is make sure you get your rest. We do not go out and party at clubs after the show. We never did. Stay up all night. We never did.

We go to bed and get our rest so we can be ready to go the next day. Yeah. I was curious to know, too, like y'all's, you know, because y'all were raised Jehovah's Witness. And I was curious to know how your parents at that time, you know, when y'all were kids and just throughout your career, how much did your faith play in, you know, I guess developing that discipline that you guys talk about?

And how did your parents say, okay, y'all can, you got your career, but you also have to, I guess, worship in whatever way. How did y'all strike that balance? Well, my mom was different, long as you had some type of spiritual belief or whatever, but they understood that Dollar Bill, got you out of Gary. Let's talk about it.

But what I loved about my mom is that she didn't try to force the religion on you. You know, Jehovah Williams. Because when I got married, you know, I became a Catholic going to Catholic church all the time and things I mean.

Gotcha. My wife, as long as you had some type of belief in God in your life and tried to do the right thing, she was comfortable with that. Now, my sister, Reby, my sister Reby, she's different. She's still. She throw the wash towels at you.

And Michael was baptized too. Michael got baptized. He was baptized at one time. And he told me the story that he was really serious. He was a Saturday. You know how Joe Wood just knock on the door and talk to Wash Tower. So Michael knocked on this girl's door. She opened the door and realized,

It was him. Come on, man. And she started peeing. He said she started peeing right before his face. She, she, she started. He didn't know what to do. He told me he's trying to teach her about Jehovah, the God, Jehovah God, right? And she realized it was him, and she just stopped.

This is a true story. Yeah, true story. Wow. Wait a minute. That's stardom. That is our clip for this. episode. I can't wait to see it animated.

Get animated. Yeah, he was really serious. Bill Bray was waiting for him because Bill Bray would go with him at times, you know, standing up a corner and wait for him, you know. And he would for all the people. It was kind of hard for him to do that at the time when he did it, you know. And so some of the things he really wanted to do, he had to get out of the faith. You know, he had to get out of his own witness.

to really do his thing where he really wanted to go, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm never going to get that visual up my head. Oh. Thank you, Jackie. I appreciate that. I can ask questions forever. Are you, if you guys have done your questions, I got one final question.

I got one family question. I just, I want to know throughout your lives and actually now post-Rona, how you guys maintain speaking to each other, how you guys maintain, because it's eight, it's eight of y'all. Do you know how often do you talk? Yeah, right. We do this sometime like we're doing right now.

And sometimes Tito will come with my house. I'll be Tito at a park. You know, we meet, you know, his wife and my wife, we meet with the kids at a park. You know, we do that sometimes. And because it's really serious out there with this coronavirus. And you've got to be real, real careful, especially in California out this way. Yes, that's what I mentioned. It's tough.

You got to, I mean, you have to mask up, keep your hands clean. And that's what we do. do. So far, so far, I'm good. And how is Reby? What's up, man? Reby's doing well. She lives with my mom. She stayed with my mom. She watches my mom. My mom and Reby together. Oh, I love it. Okay. They're decorating the house right now,

doing it all over again. And that's what my mom is doing. She's so alert. You're talking to my mom. You think she's around 40 years old. Yo, your mom, how old is she now, Jackie? She'll be 91 May 4th. What a blessing. 90. 90. That's amazing. She's 90 now. She'd be 90.

he was. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. She's doing well. Whop you on your butt. That's right. That's amazing. I'm happy when she wake up every morning. You know what it sounds? I'm happy to see her. My last question was, I know that you guys often talk about like you guys try to get together as a family and all that, but with

the kids until how how hard is it to organize Jackson family reunions? Or can that? Does that still happen? Not right now. It's very difficult to do that right now. Right now it's very difficult. Before, we do it all the time.

So like 2300 Jackson Street, the video, that was like real life. Yeah. Yes. To be the person that cooks that food. Okay. Right. I see. They got somebody for that to me.

No, you know what? I met your, I met your dessert maker, the woman that bakes all the cakes and I forget her name. He's talking about, uh, Remy? No, he's talking about. Remy? She makes this German chocolate cake that's out of... Come on, Tito. She's talking about it. Come on. You know, you're talking about... Oh, Cordia. Cordia. Cordia.

Yeah, Cordia. Yeah, Cordia. She, not the point she does for Will Smith, too. No, she does it for everybody. Like, she came to a Janet show, and she snuck... I think at the time, Jan's like, I'm not supposed to have this. And she snuck her, like a cake, like... Real covert style, like, back alley-dil sort of thing. And then she introduced...

herself to me and I was like, oh, you've been making cakes with the Jackson's how long? And then she made one now. She's official, man. She's like, she's great. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah.

But question. You know, questions. Can I say something? Yeah. Man, I'd like to thank you, man. You've been so supportive in my family. We would go to, we would go to five-star hotels, right? We walk into hotels and on the coffee table, be this big coffee book, right?

and I open it up is you in there you in the book in a lot of hotels you were inside the book and you're sitting there with all a Jackson paraphernalia

all over the place with the Jackson's albums and I will see this and that's how I learned that you were you know I think yeah

I said I mean I said man I can't thank this guy you know he's The biggest picture I saw was in the Hard Break Hotel I'm just kidding

And I see all here. You know, for real, in London, everywhere we go, we see you in these books, man. Oh, man. On the coffee table in London hotels. Yeah. I must get around. Yeah. In the airplane.

Everywhere. You know, you guys are, you know, our first superheroes. Yeah, y'all I'm royalty, man. Like, literally, your music has been a part of my life. I'm 42. Y'all music has been, you've been, your music has been a part of my life, like, my whole life. Like, I don't ever remember a point of my life not knowing a Jackson song or hearing the music in my house or my mother playing it or whatever. And, nah, man, I just give y'all brothers, love y'all.

Yeah. Like, thank you for real. Step your flowers. We're giving flowers. Yeah. Thank you. Except your flowers right now. All the given.

Take all the flowers. Your name is a nursery. We're botanist. And I remind people again, we go outside, go see the Jackson's Live. It is just like it was 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, it's all the same. Yes. Just the same as like this.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for doing this podcast. I really appreciate it. Tito. Can I ask one final question, Amir? Hell no. I forget it. I'm out. No, just you don't often get a chance to ask Motown legends who their favorite

Motown legends are. So I'm just wondering who, like, on a personal level, who your favorite Motown artist or band was, if you could just pick one. Well, if I could, besides the J5. Marvin Gay. Yeah, Marlon, Tito, for me, it's like the temptations. They're the ones who really, we watched a lot of temptations.

It was. And Diner Ross. I hate to say it, I got to bring her up. I have to. And the Pips. No, no, it's the, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. Everybody.

Everybody. Actually, wait. Everybody. A whole group. Wait, Steve actually brought up something that we normally ask, and I didn't ask. Martin said Stevie. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.

I'm sorry. Of course, cousin Stevie. Yeah. Steve and Marvin Gay were my thing. I was going to say, well, normally Steve asked this question, but when you guys were in that Encino house, What was the record collection like? Oh. And where is it now?

How big was the record collection and who decided what got played? We all had our own record collection, I believe. I mean, I listened. I mean, I got a lot of Quincy Jones albums. I had Marvin Gay's Distant Lovers album. I had backstabbers, Hell Mervin and the Blue Notes. There are eight tracks. Yes, yes, A-Tracks.

We're doing four tracks and eight-tracks. Signs still delivered. We had the stuff on cassettes. Y'all forgot about cassettes. You know, so we listen, you know, Jackie, it's a blessing to see these numbers. I know a lot of people don't get to see these numbers. Real for real. Yeah.

But, you know, we listen to all kind of music. I mean, country, western. music. I sure did. We sure did. We sure did. All kind of. It's two at all. Because great music is great music. I don't care what genre is in.

You know, great music. It's just great music. Mm-hmm. You know? Amen. Okay. Well. And having said that, I'm Bala Jackson.

You're on the Quest Love show, baby. We're on. Who needs to be signed off the show? All right. On behalf of everyone, this is Questlo, Jackson. No, we'll see y'all on the next go-round. This Questlove Supreme. Thank you.

Yo, what's up? This is Fonte. Make sure you keep up with us on Instagram at QLS. And let us know what you think and who should be next to sit down with us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. All right. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. For more podcasts from IHeart Radio,

visit the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. I'm on my podcast, 2%. I break down the signs of mental toughness,

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford. and that TikTok podcast network on TikTok. On The Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back at it on the IHeart Radio app,

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