The Questlove Show - Questlove Supreme: Tommy Oliver & Mike Africa Jr.

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

In a special episode of Questlove Supreme we tackle HBO’s documentary film “40 Years A Prisoner” which chronicles one of the most controversial shootouts in American history, the 1978 Philadelphia police raid on the radical back-to-nature group MOVE, and the aftermath that led to a son’s decades-long fight to free his parents from prison. Listen as Quest speaks to director Tommy Oliver and the man whose life is brought to the screen, Mike Africa Jr. about a day that changed Quest and Philadelphia forever. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clivert Show on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft. And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode.

Listen to the Sports Slice Podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 and TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeart Radio. Amir, it looks like you won this Man Alive on Mars Award. This man on Mars alive. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Quest Love Supreme. You know, I'm trying to refrain. I think I start every episode where I say like a special episode of Quest Love Supreme.

Like it's a, you know, a special, a special, yeah, family times or whatever. This is definitely, yes, this is probably a very, this is a very personal episode, at least for me as a Philadelphia. And I think that you might claim, you might want to claim your city for once later. Oh, yeah, all day, especially when it comes to this. This episode. Okay, good. You too, Steve. Especially when it comes to this topic.

Yes. Yes. We are all Philadelphians now. Yeah, I know that Questlove Supreme is normally our source for pop culture, Easter eggs, and education, education. But because of the times that we're living in right now, I felt it was only apropos for us to focus on a very powerful documentary that, as a Philadelphia, This is very near and dear to my heart. I'm speaking of the powerful story that is 40 years a prisoner coming to all down at HBO. You can get on HBO Max as well.

This is a tale, of course, a black lives of injustice, of police brutality, of murder, of corrupt politicians, of an imbalance system. A lot of questions and hardly answer. that can't come fast enough. But, you know, this is also, this isn't just torture porn. This is a story of determination and a story of hope. Really, a bond of a black family whose spirit cannot be broken no matter what opposition comes its way. And we have two key members of this very powerful documentary director.

of 40 years of prisoner and Philadelphia Tommy Oliver and I guess I can say the star and the hero of 40 years of prisoner the very, very patient

Mike Africa Jr. Welcome gentlemen to Questlove Supreme. Yeah, I feel like Don Cornelius when I said that. That was good though. You patient. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

I'm actually, I've always wanted to be on Soul Train, so I'll take it. I'm actually, I'm actually proud that, you know what, I'm becoming more aware. I've been listening to a lot of old episodes and I got Obama-Idis, a lot of ah. So I'm trying to do less ah in gaps as I think in free time. So there's a lot to uncover here, gentlemen. I'll start by saying how gut-wrenching and amazing this documentary is when Mr. Oliver

first came into my radar about this project. The first thing he asked me was, what do I know about move? And instantly I thought, hell yeah, I'm gonna be a talking head because I lived on Osage Avenue. And at that,

I considered like May 13th to be like one of the worst days of my high school life, not even to make light of that day, but like, you know, like just imagine like that morning, my ninth grade girlfriend just, dumped me in the most like embarrassing way in front of the class and then like my sister got to go to the cosby show tape and without me and literally like I came on hoof and puffing and then exactly

at like 4 p.m like this I lived on 52nd of no stage so I'm like eight blocks away from where this particular move incident happened and you just heard this explosion and Tommy just stopped me instantly he was like this isn't about May 13th to 1985 So then I thought about Palton Avenue. And then I said, oh, I remember commissioner, at the time, police commissioner, Frank Rizzo, lining up a bunch of African-American males outside their home butt naked. And then he stopped me again. He's like, no, that was the Black Panthers.

And I was like, wait a minute. Okay, I know about Mumia. I know about May of 85. And I thought I knew about Moved. I'm like, how many stories of. the the Philadelphia police system versus black people are there. And he just looked like, oh, you need to sit down and watch this. And he showed me, this is so much to unpacked.

I'll throw it out to you, Tom, before I get to you, brother, Mike. Why did you even think that this was the story unpacking? And I don't know, like, are we going to kind of give the ending away? Because for me, no, that guy did. Yeah, we did the ending away at this point. I mean, because I don't know when this will come out, but it'll come out. And yeah, it's all good. We can definitely talk about it.

Okay. Well, the thing is, is that going into it, you know, you're doing this in real time, and you don't know what the outcome is. No idea whatsoever. And you wouldn't have told me in a billion years that what we concluded with was going to happen. So even then, as I'm watching this, so watching when, arms folded like, okay, more, more torture porn. You know, wait, let me just ask this question because he asked you what you know about

move, but Tommy, not to judge, but you obviously are a little younger. First of all, what did you know about move and why? I'm just learning that there are multiple move attempted massacre stories, but why this particular story? More than the two that we know. No, the ones did you just said. No, I didn't even know because I was waiting for the bomb to drop. And I was like, wait, did it?

So can you explain that, Tommy? So I grew up and I sort of heard about move, but not really. So I'm 36 and I was one when 85 happened and wasn't alive when this event happened. But nobody really talked about move with any clarity. Philly's tricky that way. Philly's really tricky that way. And so it was like, move and there was this thing and there was a bomb and there was is, you know, those, it's just what it was. And so I never really understood it, but I'm a

complete research junkie. And at some point, I just went down a total rapid hole. And so I read every book that I could find on move. I read every article I could find. I went down to the Urban Archive at Temple, where there are 72 boxes of content. And I threw so much of that stuff. But I realized that there was still more stuff that was missing. And so I had my buddy, who used to work for the mayor, Maxwell Brown. He introduced me. So Max is the homie. It's like, look, anybody, anything that I need in Philly? Anybody I need to get to him like, Maxwell, I was like, can you?

And so I'm like, can you? And he's like, yeah, of course, I got you. And you're my guy, done. And so he made an intro to Mona, to Ramona Africa. And then she brought along Mike. And I was like, who is this dude? He was like, I was there to meet Ramona. And Mike and I, we just hit it off, like very, very quickly.

And I learned so much at that point that I didn't know. So at that point, two of the movement, members who were in prison because of 78 had passed away in prison. Seven of them were still in prison. Two of those seven were his parents. And the fact that he was born in prison had no idea about. And the fact that he was fighting to get them out. And that's all he was doing with his life. He was just a kid who wanted his parents home. And despite all of what he went through, there wasn't a shred of bitterness about him was just incredible. And then to toss on top of that, the fact that to really understand that what move was fighting against in 78, police brutality, wrongful incarceration, systemic racism, abuse of power, same shit we were fighting against at that point three years ago or so.

And same shit we're finding against right now. And so for me, it was the idea of trying to just do whatever I could to be around him and sort of to just, even just as a friend because he was just doing something. He's wanted his parents home. And as somebody who grew up with a difficult childhood, my dad wasn't around all those things. I just wanted to see this guy get his parents home. And then from a storytelling perspective, people knew about 85 kind of. Nobody knew about 78. but it was also specifically related to what his journey was

into what was going on with his parents. And so that put me and the rest of my team, which was really three of us, it was me, my EP slash recover producer Keith Giannet, my co-editor Joe Kehoe, the three of us just researched the hell out of it because there was no definitive account of what happened in 78.

And so we just sort of went from there. I already know that this is going to be the Snoop Dogggy style episode of Quest Love Supreme where the star of the episode doesn't even come in until the second song. So that's it. I'm like, we didn't even talk to Mike yet. I don't even know, Mike. And I just want to listen to him. Like, everyone gets on Snoop's record before Snoop does. And we're like 11 minutes into this episode. It just hit me that we left the train station.

without even talking to Mike. Mike, first of all, man, I'm extremely honored that you're doing us this solid by giving us this interview. I guess for the non-Philadelphians and the non-connected people to your story, I would like to definitively ask you, could you please tell us what does move mean and what do they stand for. That's a easy one. Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of people don't really know what move means.

A lot of people think of it as an acronym. I thought it was an acronym. Right. Listen, growing up, I heard a lot of acronyms that people made up about us, man. Listen, the best one that I've ever heard. The best one that I've ever heard is it makes me laugh every time I hear it now. They say it stands from monkeys on vines everywhere. Uh-uh.

What? You gotta be kidding. Wait, can I ask you a question though? Sure. And this is going to pay me to ask because I know what the answer might be. Did you first hear that from a black person? Yes. Yo, we got to talk.

We learned in this documentary. I want you to answer that question first. And then I need to explain how move was explained to me. And then we can really uncover the dirty. dirty secret of black america's conservatism and then i'm going to explain so much of how much the media drove all of that in the 70s and you're going to save us and make us misinformation thank you there was so much misrepresentation about who they were and there was no place else to go but to watch the news and so we can dig into all that okay so for starters mike could you please explain

to us what is move And what does it stand for? The move organizations name Move. It came from the founder, John Africa, because he said that all life moves. And in order to be in harmony with life, with nature, you have to move too. And we have a system in place that is stagnant

and it causes people to stop or be stopped. And we are anti that establishment. So we are completely opposite. So that's why we are called move. And our mission is to encourage people to protect life, people, animals, and the environment. That's it. The water moves, the trees move, the air flows and moves, the people move, the animals move, all life moves. And that's how we got the name.

Pre-EPA. Yo, you know what saddens me about this whole thing is because, okay, you know, for thus, for a lot of us that are on social media and you know you always see like you know 20 20 and a 2020 bingo card and surprises are abounding and a lot of things are inferling that you know manages to shock you even though I think nothing is shocking in 2020 but the one revelation that came to be that really threw people for a gut punch was how conservative a sect of black America is, especially in light of the election that has recently passed. And I say that because in 1985, especially, let's say like five or six days before the Osage Avenue bombing,

what what I'm saying is that I grew up with uncles in the police force of the Rizzo era under under Rizzo rule Frank Rizzo um for the for those that don't know um I was about to say Frank Rizzo is not the uh the character from the jerky boys Frank Rizzo is um you know a lot of what's happening now in the Trump administration to a lot of Philadelphians that is nothing shocking or knew Frank Rizzo was probably one of the most vile

politicians in the history of America The dude once said that I'm going to make Attila the Hun look like a faggot That is a direct quote From the person who was The Mayor of at the time

The fourth biggest city in the country Yeah He That is a direct. Also, one of the statues that's been trying to pull down. Oh, no, is that. We pulled that down. He got that down this year.

He was somebody who he started as B cop, made his way all the way up to police commissioner, two-term city mayor. And they basically operated under the principle of you can have safe streets or you can have civil liberties. Pick one. Yeah. He, again, a lot of the code talk that or the, you know, the hidden. he didn't even hide the code because I think at one point I remember my father being upset at that he I think he directly told white people to just rail against black people because they were taking your jobs like whatever the garage right I think it was the garbage union or something like that but like he just directly told white people fight for yourself so I mean everything that we're experiencing now with Trump we had to deal with that he's been mayor since I was born. I believe his time ran out in 78 or 79.

I'm not certain. But his rule was long, though, right? Because he was police commissioner first. Yeah, he was correct. Yeah, he just. And then his family is in the government as well, right? Like he had a brother. His brother who was the,

and the fire department who ran the fire department. And they were all over. His father was a fire department. It was in a fire department too. Yeah. So they were, they were involved for a long time. and he ran the city like a mob boss. Exactly.

You know, the thing of like the racism in him, he didn't try to hide it. I mean, it was how he felt. And, you know, one of the examples I give about Frank Rizzo and his ways, like in the city of Philadelphia, where there's over 2,000 statues or monuments in a city that is mostly black, there's only three that are of black people.

One is Martin Luther King, and is only 18 inches high. One is Octavia Skato that just, we just got that statue outside of City Hall just a few years ago. There is no statue of Bernard Hopkins, who was a heavyweight champion at the age of 50.

However, but there's a, but there's a statue of a fictional character named Rocky Balbo. Right? So, and that's because of Rizzo, Italian, he was pushing the whole Italian thing and he wanted people in the city to be with this Italian thing. So he pushed it and like you said, he said he wanted to urge white people to fight black people for better jobs and all that kind of stuff.

So his and his racism spilled over on everyone and moved got it really hard. A lot of it was because of Palton Village and the gentrification of that community, a lot like what you're seeing now at Temple and Penn. And a lot of it had to do with the fact that Moved was very much before our time. You didn't see Drelox in 1970, whatever. Exactly. The first time I ever saw locks outside of my family was Whoopi Goldberg. Right. And that was in the 80s.

And they were demonized before they were celebrated. Exactly. And so the raw food thing. We were long before the raw food restaurants that are popping up all over the country and outside of the country. You guys were just vegan in the wrong place. You were trying to be vegan in the city.

The exercise, I mean, move women having the babies at home. Yeah. We were so before our time. Right. And the, you know, it was, it was, we were demonized because of it. And people, you know, discriminated against. And that was in large part

what led to them accepting what happened to us. You know, the thing that perplexed me was that a lot of my, a lot of my thoughts on what move was came directly from black people, older black people. And that's when I realized that at the time, I think when the roots first started, and this is when we were, were like busking on the streets of, of, like, West Philadelphia, like we'd do some at Clark Park or whatever. we did this thing at Clark Park once,

a thing of like 91, and I met Ramona. There was on Baltimore Avenue, like a farmer's market or something like that. And she was there, and it was kind of like my us weekly, oh, she's just like us.

Like, oh, she talks proper English and she's eating salad. I don't see her eating well. I'm telling you, I was told the worst shit about, I,

that y'all. This is addressed in a documentary. though it was all right that y'all were heathens that it was like a cult that you know like raw foods and raw me now i get what the raw means as in a vegan lifestyle but when it's 1985 and people don't understand the contextualization of a cleaner healthy living i mean this is stuff like erika baddude taught me in 97 but you guys were just 20 years not 20 30 years ahead of the game and you know you know know, once I talked to her, I walked away. I was like, wait a minute. That's not what my uncles or my grandma or like anyone that was older said. Right. And it just, that was the, that was the moment where I realized how, you know, if you kind of go against, I hate to say it, like this, this conservative Christian thing that black people go. Yeah, like it's, it's against God. and what God do they worship?

They don't worship my God and da-da-da-da. And that's not even, and that's not even necessarily accurate. The original, a lot of people don't notice, but the original name for the move organization was the Christian movement, the American Christian movement for life. That was the original name. The people, black people were ashamed of us.

Yes. They thought that even, though the message was cool when we talked to them one-on-one because we didn't come in a suit like Martin Luther King and deliver that message they didn't want to accept it

because we didn't come in a suit like Malcolm and these were the heroes that had just been honored and celebrated so they thought of it as this is how you're supposed to look if you're going to be a revolutionary or

if you're going to be radical then you need to look like the Black Panthers. So move, come along with different than all of those groups, different than anyone has ever even seen before, and it just made people question it from the beginning. And it didn't help that the news media was saying things like we eat out of garbage cans and we don't bathe and we don't, the children are not schooled. And just they made it worse by just, you know, inflaming people's minds and their passions with these lies. You know, they demonized us and that just gave them like justification.

Okay. So at the time, I mean, how aware were you of the Osage Avenue incident and what effect did that have on your life? Like, were you going by Mike, you were born as Mike Africa? Right. So, you know, if you research moved history, there's a lot of confrontations and incidents with the police that you'll find,

but there's a lot that you will never find. One in particular that you, it's a footnote within the history and on paper, but it left a major impression on the children. In the 70s and the very early 80s, John Africa sent the children to our sister chapter in Richmond, Virginia, was called the Seed of Wisdom. And I was one of the kids, after I was born in the jail, my grandmother took me to the Seed of Wisdom in Virginia, too. Bertie was there. All of the kids that went in the house, May 13th, they were all there. We were all together.

And a bunch of other kids were there, too. It was about 15 of us. you know, it was like you never really got any peace. You could never really feel safe or secure. Every time you started to like feel that things were going to change, they just, they didn't. I mean, I can remember times where neighbors, black and white, would walk up to us and just like pull as much mucus out of their chest and out of their throat and just spit on us.

I remember like the police come by. They're not even doing anything. They're not coming by to raid our house or anything. They just walk in the beat. And as they're walking, they see one of us and they just pick us up by our hair and throw us across the street. That's the kind of stuff that happened

throughout my childhood. As children. Yeah, I mean, you know, three, four, five, seven, you know. And so, like, we always, like, stuck together and, like, tried to fight for each other. But, you know, we were all kids. The oldest one was only eight or nine years old of the 15 of us. And so, like, when we were in Virginia, there was this thing that happened where they, the police raided our house.

And they would say that there were some housing code violations. The children were said to be abused and all of this nonsense. So they put us in an orphanage. we were in the orphanage for 11 days. And while we were in the orphanage, we were like neglected. I mean, totally abused. Like, I mean, look, I was, I was almost three years old.

And they did, you know, the caretakers, the nuns that was running the place, they didn't change my diaper for 11 days. I had a diaper rash that was near my knees and up to my navel. And when my family, and I wasn't the only one, and I was not the youngest. And, you know, I mean, they, like, my cousin, my cousin had locks down to his, almost down to his shoulders. And, like, the nuns, like, were trying to comb his hair. And they combed his hair to the point where, like, his head was bleeding. He had, by the time they finished, by the time we were, you know, by the time our family got us back,

He had half of an Afro and the other half of his head was still locks, you know, and he had sores all over his head. You know, they were, you know, when we didn't cooperate, they tried to throw us, they actually threw some of the kids down basement steps, you know. We would hide behind hot water tanks to try to get away from them. And we went through all of that for that 11 days. Our family rescues us, and then they bring us back to Philadelphia. And you're thinking, wow, this, okay, finally, we're home.

The worst, it can't get any worse than this, right? It's over. The worst has to be over because we just survived something that we shouldn't have. And then, you know, it just, it never, it didn't get better for them. You know, we were, I remember hearing about the confrontation is gearing up. The cops were always around our houses, flying hell. I mean, I was terrified at the sound of any siren. It could have been an ambulance going to rescue somebody,

but the sound was so terrifying. And when I would hear it, I would run home. It doesn't matter where I was or what I was doing, I would run home as fast as I could. And then one day I went outside the house, and I turned, I walked down the steps. I'm about four miles away from Osage Avenue on Reno Street, West Philly.

And one of my friends, he looked at me and said, they dropped a bomb on move. And my first reaction was, no, they didn't. And he pointed up to the sky. And when I turned around and looked up, the entire sky was black. And I didn't know what that meant. And I was six years old. I ran in the house and I asked my grandmother, I said, and before I couldn't even ask her anything, her and my aunts were huddled around the television

with tears just pouring out of their faces. And, you know, and I said, that looked like our house. And my aunt looked at me and said, it is. And I wonder, I didn't know if anyone had died. I didn't know who was in the house. I just knew that our house was on fire and it didn't look like it was being put out.

It took me a lot of years to find out. who was actually in the house. I had no idea that all the children that I was in Richmond with was in the house. I would ask my grandmother where they are. And, you know, how do you tell a six-year-old your family was just killed, right? So with moving the belief of life and believing that all life is one and connected and we all need each other and we all depend on the same sources for life, and we don't believe in death, right?

We believe that life is continuous. When an apple falls from a tree, it goes into the ground and it provides with more apples, more seeds. So that's how we think about everything in life. So when I would ask my grandmother, where the people are, where the kids, where's Tomaso at?

She would say, look out the window. And, you know, I might see a cardinal. At the time I asked her that question, I saw a cardinal land on the branch. And she pointed to the card and said, there he is. If you want to see your family, you want to see your brothers and sisters, look out the window and see the life, and you'll see him. And that's the way it was for about eight years. And when I began to understand who was in the house, that came when Ramona came home in 1992, I asked my mom, who was at the prison with her before she came home.

I said, Mom, can you have Ramona come and get me when she come home? And Ramona, the day she came home, she came and got me. And we were, Ramona went straight to like a speaking thing where she was on the radio or something. And I was with her. And she was telling the story to the audience. And as she's telling the story, I'm learning what happened to my family as she, as the audience is learning it too. So there was a lot of catching up that I had to do. I didn't know who I knew my parents were in prison, but I didn't know what they were in prison for.

I didn't know that they had a hundred year sentence. I didn't know that they were in prison for killing a cop. I didn't know what was going on, really. Because again, how do you explain to a child that his family is in prison and he won't see them until he, outside on the street, he won't see them until he's at least 30 years old. So, you know, a lot I was just learning as audiences were learning. I traveled with Ramona throughout the country. We went on, I mean, she went on tours speaking tours all around the country.

And I'm just soaking up as much information as I can from her and from Pam. And I listened to Mumia speak a lot. Mumia talked a lot about Moombo. I listened to his recordings and his commentaries, read some of his writings. That's how I learned about May 13th. in the depth that I was able to understand it in and about what happened on August 8 that sent our people to prison. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clivert Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield. this new season of The Girlfriends. Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me?

The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the Girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcast. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft, and we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects, from hidden traits teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else.

If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss that. this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, for wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I got to ask this just from the, after watching the documentary, after you just listen to you speeches now, like, and I think that Amir mentioned this in your, in the intro, your patience is, and you're just, it's wherewithal.

to just push through is amazing. And knowing, it's astounding. And knowing just a piece of the story makes you feel that way, but then knowing the totality, like not just about your parents, but just life outside of that and the things that you've seen. So I got to ask you as a man, like, as a black man, like, how do you maintain this? Like, and I'm just pointing to your mind because at such a beautiful level

that it seems to exude from you. You know, I was asked this question earlier today. Oh, damn. People ask me this. People ask me this, I mean. Because it's kind of like advice, too. We want to know. We want to know if you can do it.

We can get through anything we got going on. I was doing an interview with a reporter from the Guardian newspaper. He asked me, what was your, what was the thing that you disliked about the film the most? And I said, I didn't dislike the film at all. I said, but there was a comment that was made by one of the officers. Bob Hurst Bob Hurst made a comment

that said he said something like they took move to jail but they should have took him to the morgue and that was probably more disappointing

than it was angering because how if we're going to move forward and grow as a people right how do you still harbor the same

hate in your heart that led to one of his fellow officers being killed. I mean, what happened on August 8, 1978 when a cop where a cop was killed, that didn't happen because people were loving each other. That happened because people were fighting each other because of a system that one was trying to protect and the other side was trying to get rid of because of the danger it caused for people, the animals, the environment, and everyone, including the cops. So, you know, it's just I have enough understanding of the mission and I'm clear enough to understand that we're not going to getting anywhere carrying hate in our hearts. We're not. It doesn't get us anywhere.

You know where hate gets you? It gets wars. It gets violence. The hatred that you must have in you to shoot a brother down in his back in front. of his mother kneeling on his neck while he's calling for his mother, crying for his mother, pleading for his mother. That is what hate breeds. And I'm trying to get as far away from that type of activity as possible because it doesn't get us anywhere. It doesn't help us in any kind of way. And it is exactly what, like, like Trump was saying that Trump made a statement about Frank Rizzo himself. He said, we need more mayors like him, you know. And we see the type of person he is.

And the type of evil that is evoked by his mentality. You got people walking around shooting protesters because protesters are trying to make a better way because they're just trying to say stop killing black people. And you got anti-protesters protesting the protest because they want to continue to kill black people. So, you know, I do a lot. It ain't easy. How about that's why I'm asking you. Like, do you meditate? Like, if I'm literally asking you, like, how do you maintain this spirit?

Yes, right? A little bit of a little gongia in the life, you know? I mean, shoot. You know, I am, I had a lot of time to think. I just, I've had a lot of time to process what happened. Tommy talked about, he's a research junkie. I'm a research junkie as well. I have files.

I have boxes and crates and filing cabinets and storage bins. Tommy's been to my basement. He's seen the towers of storage bins. In fact, you can see a portion of my archives in the film when I'm sitting in front of it. That is 10% of the information that I have. Okay, so there's a part of the film that our mayor from 85, W. Wilson Good. very transparently says that it's it's most likely that friendly fire was the cause of the death of the office.

I forget the offers his name. James Grant. James Grant. Ramp. James Ramp. Okay. Sorry. Now, I do know that because of the bulldozing,

of the compound and whatnot. I assume that it might assume that the evidence that would have officially exonerated them, was that in the rubble in the pile of mess? Like, because it's so obvious that it was friendly fire. And I know that, you know, forensics and, you know, the, whatever, the grassy, old magic bullet, JFK theory thing couldn't be, been, been, proven because of the of the wash job of the Philly Police Department. But how, I mean, how close were they to kind of reaching that conclusion? Like, was there, was that ever

introduced in court that, hey, it was it was introduced in court and it was a mess. There were so many things that happened from evidence disappearing to the official photographer, not taking any photos in the basement to him saying that when he was in the basement, he saw no guns in the basement to the, there was a time where they changed the trajectory of the bullet in court. And so they said that, oh, wait, it was going this way. Oh, no, I'm sorry. It's actually going this way in court on the official coroner's report. They just said, oh, no, no, sorry, it's supposed to be the other way.

And the judge allowed it. And so there were so many things. I mean, if you just thought the thing about it for a second, why would anyone destroy a crime scene hours after? Why? I see. Occam's Razor. Why? Why would somebody do that? Tommy, how did you not lose your shit during these interviews? Because I know that Mike is superhuman. However, I, in these moments from the moment of the, what Mike just reminded us of what the officer said. to Bob Hurst.

To Bob Hurst, to Rendell, to Wilson Good, to all of them coming back and now being like, well, you know, maybe they shouldn't be in jail. You know, everybody 40 years, like, like, how do you, how did you keep your cool during the taping of these moments that were just like, fuck? What you mean? Like, 40 years ain't shit. I'm sorry, that's how I felt. I mean, so much of it came down to, like, I set out to tell a story that was

open, honest, and unbiased. And there are no frank and bites in this. I'm not misrepresenting what people say. I'm not taking it out of context. And in many ways, it was giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Because I was surprised you got some of those people. I was surprised you got Rendell and Mary Good. And good.

Jesus Christ. How hard or easy was that? That was the last, watching Wilson Good speak on move. Yeah. So wait, can I, can I, can I assume that you had to assure them that this was not about 1985 and that he was only going to speak on 1977 that he spoke. So that actually came through Mike. And so speaking of the idea of, and I know, it's, it really came down to, in his case, the end's justifying the means. And the only thing and

not to put words in your mouth, you can speak for yourself, but he wanted his parents home. And as such, it was about whatever it took to do that. And the idea of sitting with the men who was significantly responsible for what happened to his family, even the idea of that wasn't too much. Oh, you were there? You were there? It was there. Let me put it in context for people that might not get it. W. Wilson Good was mayor of Philadelphia.

Our first black mayor in 1985, kind of a sort of. of pride, not Obama-esque, but it was kind of like, okay, you know, okay, if... You wasn't no mayor and Barry. Well, he didn't smoke crack at least. That's not what I'm doing. No, it was, it was a quasi. I mean, if you were into that sort of thing, I mean, I've never got the quote, Obama, whatever, the feeling, I guess the idea of something supersedes the actual reality.

So, yes, I would say that the idea of the first black mayor, Philadelphia was kind of a source of pride, especially for a city that was under the, under the thumb of, of, you know, Rizzo for so long. And then eight years later, you have your first black mayor. But this incident, May 13th, 1985, really tarnished his legacy. And I guess we need to also explain that, that, you know, in addition to what happened in 1978, as explained earlier, in 1985, the city of Philadelphia flew a helicopter. I know correct me, Tommy.

I'm sorry, correct us. Correct us. Did it, though? It was like you say it's Harris' legacy, yet they, he got reelected. And so he got reelected after that. And so, see, part of the problem is it's, There's so much more to that where when you dehumanize a people, which is what the media did to move, it makes it really easy to justify what happens to them.

Insert whatever them you want, whether it's move or immigrants or natives or whatever group you want to insert because they've been dehumanized. And as such, it becomes easy to justify it because how then do you not get confused by the idea of this man? gets reelected the next year. But it's, for me, there's always going to be an asterisk there. Like, or maybe, you know, I'm just in the right mind of things. You know, of course, if you were to ask an older black person or a conservative person, I don't know. I just think that the stain of what happened to the 6200 block of Osage Avenue and the subsequent

blocks that also got destroyed. That was way, way to, there's always going to be an asterisk on his entire legacy that is not going to be there for Rendell or Nutter or any other mayor, which, and what's, what's even weirder is that Rizzo was way worse. And I, yes, I think he's one of the worst politicians of all time. But I think generally in history, like there isn't a statue of Wilson Good up in Philadelphia, you know. But there is. Now, if we were white, I'm certain that there would have been a lot of erasure and, you know, a kind of a revisionist history of his legacy.

But, you know, I mean, Wilson Good has actually been in, I still consider it in hiding. Like besides this interview. I can't recall ever seeing a Wilson Good soundbite or an interview or anything in the last 35 years. Yeah. I'm interested to hear about Mike and his relationship since he was the one that introduced him to the project. Because I don't want to say. So how did that, well, I'm shocked to hear this. How did that even, how was that brokered?

Well, it wasn't easy. How it started was Wilson Good. was honored with a street sign called Wilson Goodway on his block where he lives. And when that happened, some members of the community who are also moved and Mumia supporters were enraged by it. And they talked about how they take their kids by that street on their way to school every day. And they do not want to see a street sign of a murderer on their block. So the pressure was so intense And Wilson, it drew Wilson good out.

He got on the radio. He talked about how, you know, he was sorry for what happened. He had apologized multiple times. He would be willing to support Move and John Africa for the rest of his life. And so at the time, the move nine were still in prison. except for my mom. And when my mom got out of prison, the head of the FOP,

John McNesby, made a statement that said one of the move members slipped through the cracks. But the next man up, the next person up, we're going to be waiting for, he pointed and said,

this Michael Davis, was just my father. He said, this Michael Davis, we're going to make sure that he never sees the light of day. We're going to make sure that he stayed,

in jail, and if that means that his, he said, we want him to serve the full term. And if that means his, he dies before his terms are up, we want his body, his corpse to occupy his cell. Sorry for interrupting. When was that said? That was in, uh, 2018. June 2018. When she came out, right. When she came out. Okay. Okay. So when that happened, I knew that the pressure that we had applied and all of the work that we had done to get my mom out, I knew that we were going to need more. The way people see women as opposed to how they see men, it would be harder for my father to make parole than my mom. So Wilson Good said he wanted to help. So I called him. And I told him, I said, you said, you wanted to help? Help. So he said, okay. So he said he wanted to set up a meeting.

he said there were certain information that he could help with. There are certain things that he knew. And he said he'd be willing to provide that information. He'd be willing to provide support letters. He'd be willing to provide jobs. All of the things that the parole board needed you to have to make parole, he said he'd be willing to supply.

So the first meeting that we had... It sounded like modern-day mister. I'm sorry, just... It was crazy. I didn't even know this part of the story. That's crazy. I'm sorry. The first meeting that we had was, I tell you,

so just to give you a little bit of understanding about me, my family, the children that were in the house, I think about them every day. There is not a day that goes by in the 35 years since I've seen them last that I don't think about every day. and the women and the men that were in the prison, they were the parents of the kids that were killed. So going into Wilson Good's office,

it was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. It was, I felt like, I felt so dirty like just having a conversation with him and not jumping over the table to strangle him. I felt so, I felt like I was betraying my family just looking at him and looking, and him looking back at me. You know, I left the first meeting vomiting after. You know, it was, it was really tough. But if you know anything about me, you know that I don't love anything more than I love my family, my whole move family. And so with one of the members of the move nine dying in prison in 2015,

you know, I just didn't want to see any other movement would come out of prison feet first. So I was willing to do whatever it took. It didn't matter how hard it was. It didn't matter how gut-wrenching it was. It didn't matter how controversial it was, because it was definitely controversial. People didn't like the idea of me going and sitting down

and talking with Wilson Good. But to bring my family home, I was willing to do that. And I don't regret it. Can I ask something, Tom? Mm-hmm. So this documentary is, what, one hour and 45 minutes, I believe? An hour and 49. Okay.

So under two hours. One slight left turn, and this could have easily have been, it could have been a short docu-series. Like, just for us to conduct this interview and just unwrap 20% of the story, you know, is a lot to unpack. You have no idea, Amir. Dude, okay, not even, I'm not even trying to self-promote because I'm doing a documentary at the same time, like, cutting your kids is one of the hardest things. I got to keep this in, and I got to keep this in all. too important, this is too important.

And I'm hearing a lot of things that and I'm like, well, wait, why wasn't that in the doc? And then I realized that if you open that can of worms, then suddenly you're dealing with a three-hour film. So talk about the storyline structure. Like, how hard was it? What was your original director's cut and how much did you have to cut on the floor

just to get the succinct start to finish story that you ended up with now? that's just as powerful. So interestingly, I actually thought of this as a multi-part piece to begin with. And that's what I started talking to HBO about. And they thought that it was a feature. And actually what I said to them was if it was anybody, but HBO, my answer will be hell no, but let me think about it.

Okay. That's what I said verbatim. And so I thought about it and I, I agree. And then when I turned in the first cut, they were like, oh, I see what you were talking about. You want to have a conversation about this being more than one part. And we can have that conversation. And at that point, I was like, no. And it was about figuring out how to be disciplined and tell the story in a way that really worked. Because there are so many things that we could dig into.

We could dig into August 8th for two hours by itself. And I'm not exaggerating. We have so much footage around it. We have so many perspectives and there's so much archival. You can really dig into all of the details in so many ways. But for me, it was about understanding what the story was really about, understanding what the emotion was, which is this guy trying to get his parents home.

and then the context around that. Why are his parents in and how do we be laser focused on that? There's a reason that the film moves the way that it does, that it looks the way that it does, that the cutting the shoe, like I shot the entire film myself, I cut it with a partner,

and part of it is the idea of stripping away, I lit the film at it all of it. And so it's just stripping away all the things that take you away from the emotion and the story. And that's it. And anything that does not fit on that, you pull away. So the scene in which Mike is about to hear that his mother is about to be released, you were there.

How much FaceTime were you? So here's the thing. That's the one thing that I didn't. And Mike and I had, so Mike and I talked about this because. Did I imagine that scene? No, you didn't imagine that scene. Tell him about how you threatened me, Tommy. Don't forget that part.

That you had to be there when it happened. So I was in L.A. I lived in L.A. He's in Philly. And so, but we had no idea when it was going to happen. So you can tell him about the threat. Right. So I said, Tommy, I don't know when this is going to happen, man.

If it's going to happen, I said, what happens if it happens? And I just go pick her up. He said, if you pick her up without calling me, I will kill you. Yeah. I felt him on that because that was such a beautiful moment. Like, it was theatrical. Like, just, oh, just. So that actual forward call, I wasn't there for.

But it was interesting because I was in, I was in Miami at ABFF. And I was there with my wife and our kids. And when he called me, we were actually planning on shooting a black love interview the following day. And so I had equipment with me, which we had to cancel. And they've never forgiven me since because I canceled to them. I couldn't tell them why. It was Juan Howard and his wife, and they just thought we blew him off. But anyway, so he called me at, I think it was like 10 a.m.

I was on literally the first flight out of Miami. And I got there that evening. And we drove, it was a seven-hour drive because they were up in Cambridge Springs. Wait, where? It's near Erie, Pennsylvania. And so it's about as far as you can get and still be in Pennsylvania. And so seven-hour drive. It's about an hour from, what, two hours from Niagara Falls.

But so it's a drive that we made a bunch. But that was one of the times where it was just like, okay, it's like there are, I went back and forth a lot. I was probably in Philly. I was flying back to Philly at least once a month, sometimes twice a month. And more than that sort of what needed. And so I was there as much as I could. but something like that where we had no idea when it was going to happen we couldn't plan for.

I had to rely on him where it was, hey, I don't know what this is going to happen, but can you please make sure you capture it? And can you please make sure you captured widescreen? But that didn't happen, but it's all good. It was like, it was iPhone. Wait, so this 2018. So that means iPhone 10? Yeah, it couldn't happen. Okay.

Well, I wasn't the one shooting. somebody else was shooting and they didn't believe in the whole side screen thing. Well, no, it just made it more authentic. And, you know, now I got to go back and re-look at it, but, you know, I definitely, I remember being floored watching it.

And that's the thing. Like, I knew that Tommy knew that I didn't know. And you were so quiet that day. And when it came, I my heart dropped I was like oh you didn't know that you didn't know how it ended you didn't know is that what you're saying yeah I mean I thought I was gonna just watch a if I thought watching it what I thought I was going to get out of it was how corrupt Rizzo was as a mayor oh not a beautiful kind of love I didn't no I wasn't expecting them to get out of love I mean Tommy all of a black love I guess it's a demon. No.

It's interesting though. I didn't see it coming. If anything, I thought, okay, well, maybe the statue will come down or better. You don't know how many times I go past that mural. Just wanted to egg the shit out that mural. Like, that's what I thought. I thought the ending was going to be. And then we took the Rizzo mural down.

That's not the Mike Africa way, Amir. This is what we're learning, right? Right? Yes, but I didn't know about any of these things. I mean, we had no idea that they were going to come home during the filming. We talked about it, and, like, this was supposed to be something that could, like, bring, you know, light to the case and help get people motivated to support them coming home. But there was no, you know, we were doing all of this other stuff. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that did not make it to the film.

The work that we were doing, the meeting with the different politicians and the investigators and, And we traveled to, we almost got arrested and Dan Downey's prison. Bro. Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, so I've got, so there were several times, like, actually, several times. There was one time where we got, I got chased off of the prison grounds and they followed us. There was another time where I was surrounded by four cop cars and about eight cops, and it was insane. Also, every single time you see any footage at prison, I was probably this close to getting. arrested because they do not allow cameras of any sort of whatsoever.

What's going to ask that? I was going to ask them. I didn't get a fuck. I needed. For you, Tommy. And I had to play that like the bad guy. I was like, Tommy, put your phone down. But I was like, yeah, get that shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but there was a lot of like really close calls. When he, when he was at the prison, we went to the prison to see Delbert, where Delbert was beaten, the prison he was beating it. that he went to after he was beaten and all of that. And while we were there, Tommy calls me and they're questioning, police are questioning him because of whatever.

And then when they get off the phone, they come to my car. And they're like bringing their troops to snoop around. And none of that makes it to the film, but there was a whole lot of crazy moments where, like, you know, things, shit was about to go down. And some of it I have.

And I have it and you can see them. And I was sort of discreet about it, but I was still going to be like, you know what, in case something happens. Actually, when I got stopped and there were five cops around me, I called Sean King. And I called him. And I texted him. And I'm like, just in case some shit goes down, I want you to know where I am. And so, yeah. Whoa.

Yeah. No, they were not playing around. Yo, can I ask you all since y'all mentioned Delbert? because not for nothing, you know, we talked about, and we said it was a sport, we were spoiling the ending. We said that Mike's parents were both released. It was a beautiful ending.

But at the same time, it was a multi-kind of layered emotional ending, right? Because as we're seeing Mike's parents reunite and we're seeing Delbert home, you have this moment of like, he was in his 20s. He got his ass beat for no fucking reason. Like, can y'all talk about Delbert

in his life that we, things that we may have, you know, we didn't, y'all didn't get a chance to show in the story and how he is. I've actually never talked about this part. I am, so Delbert got out in January of this year. And he did almost 42 years. And I'd gotten to know Delbert pretty well. Went to see him in prison a couple of times. And he was just a sort of like Mike, just a positive, happy,

good guy. Actually, he kind of remind me of General Iro from Avatar. Yeah, there you go. There you go. And I'd got to know him and he was just a good guy and then he finally got out.

And I was there when he got out and which is, I don't know if you've, I hope you have, but if you haven't watched to the very end of the film because there's a very small clip of him. But the thing that was so hard, hard for me was I was just about done editing the film and the ending was really hard because I wanted to figure out the right balance of things. And then as I'm doing that, Delbert again, 42 years in prison, got out in January, less than six months, like five and a half months afterward, he died. He died. And it broke my heart. And the, the balance. the dance of trying to figure out how to make sure that I was honoring him, my friend, this man who went through so much, but also not at the, it's just there was a lot because

you go through this roller coaster of emotions and like Amir was talking about, it's like as you watch the film, it's sort of there where you like you want them to get out, but you don't want to allow yourself to believe that it's going to happen because the disappointment of that happening. after allowing yourself to believe is a lot. Because it's typically what happens. And so after sort of that a juggle, and then you finally do, you get there,

and it's this fairy tale ending. It's this thing that's happier and better than you could have ever hoped for. And then to show, oh, but Delbert died. I didn't see, did you mention that part in the movie? I didn't. Okay. I didn't because I could not figure out the yo-yo of it.

I couldn't figure out how to go from here to here to here without it feeling weird, which is why he's there. He's there. You see him. You hear him. And so that was my way of figuring out how to honor who he was and sort of what he stood for while still balancing the emotion and the journey of the film. And you answered a question for the viewer because as a viewer,

since he was such a pivotal part of the story, you wanted to know what happened to do? And it was just, you came at the, it was just so perfect in his face. Oh, and it's the years on his, oh, it's just, rest and peace, though. That was also one of the trippiest thing for me, because I had been, I'd seen this guy for so long in archival footage and on photos. And that's all I knew him as. And the first time I saw him, it was plus 35 years. Like, there was no gradation. There was nothing in between. It was just, oh, yeah, here's this, you know, 30 year old man. Here's this 65-year-old man, and it was trippy. Can I ask, I guess at the time when you officially have the green light and you're doing this project, in your mind, are you like this project is over when they are released or, you know, okay, so say if their bail gets denied? back in 2017, 2018. For you, is it just, like, back before you knew there was a chance for it to really happen, is there an alternative ending in your mind that would have completed this documentary

if they had never gotten out of prison? So it's a good question. And it's, I'm the person who greenlit this film. and so HBO came on as the distributor, but I paid for this film out of my pocket. And so it was not about the idea of, hey, let's do this as a piece of business that needs to make sense.

And we have to know what these things are. I did it because I, what Mike was doing was important. And who he was was somebody that I wanted to be able to capture and showcase and be around. And that's what it was. And so it wasn't, hey, these things need to happen.

for this to make sense. It's like, no, it's like I was spending my own money. I was doing whatever I needed to do to capture it without an HBO, without anybody. And, you know, that was just what I wanted to do. And so it, and so in many ways, it's sort of running over a canyon while building a bridge at the same time. And it's just like, you know what? I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. And in the end, if it doesn't make sense, it's all good. It's all good because... Still information that nobody had, too, for sure. Right.

You're still educating the masses. Yeah. So much to unpack here, because is there more story to tell? Like, now that this is over, can you officially put this behind you? Or is there, are there other fights that? we don't know about or that we're not aware of. Yep. So first of all, Mike, are you kind of a qualified paralegal?

I mean, you took, first of all, I spent, what was day, what was day one for you when you decided I have to get them home? Like, what, do you remember the day where you're like, hand on table? Okay, I got to do this and I'm a fine, go to city hall. find some papers. Like, what year was it when you were like, all right, I got to do this myself? 2015. But, you know, see, what it was is when Ramona came and got me, when I asked her to come get me,

that was in 1992. And she threw me right into, I'm in lawyers offices and learning about the case and the lawyers are quizzing me. They're telling me, listen, this is your parents. You need to know this information. And I've been around lawyers ever since 13, 14 years old. So learning and hearing the language that they use and creating strategies and learning about the different ways in which that you can insert information to judges where they are accepted.

If you don't do it the right way, you don't use a certain language, you don't enter it into the right court. It won't be accepted. I was learning all of this type of information since then. As a teenager, correct? I was 14 years old. I was 14 years old when I first started in that, yeah, I was falling asleep in lawyers' offices because it was boring information. I didn't want to hear.

I mean, it wasn't that I want to, but it was boring. I'm 14 years old. I got angry. I should be playing ball, right? So I'm falling asleep and all that kind of stuff. And they're like, you know, sometimes they let me sleep, but sometimes they woke me up and made me pay attention. So as time went on, I was always around Ramon.

I was always around Pam, involved in Mumia stuff a lot, right? Learning about his case and the illegalities of it and the ways in which to try to support him. And I've always been involved in it. So in 2015, when Phil passed away in jail, and Ramona had gotten sick herself. And we found out later that she had stage four cancer. And she had had a massive stroke too.

So she really was like kind of the person that was kind of driving the move nine information. And she was out of the picture because she couldn't do it anymore. And she told me, she said, I said, Ramon, I said, listen, I said, Mona, people are calling me this investigator. he's calling and the lawyer wants to know something and we need to pick a lawyer. We don't need to have a lawyer for the move nine. And what are we going to do? And she gave me a sit down and she said, listen, she said, you've been around this information long enough. You're smart.

Two of those people are your parents. One is your uncle. You know all of the people. You know the case. And you have plenty of move belief. in your head. You are going to have to take the lead on this stuff, and you're going to have to have the confidence in yourself to know that you can do it. I know that you can do it. You need to know that. So you need to just go ahead and do it. So when she told me that, I said, okay. And,

you know, I had my own ideas about what I thought should happen. And my dad had been giving me information, and my uncle Chuck, who was one of the move nine to my mom's little brother, and they fed me information and I used what I had and Tommy was part of it with him, we talked about different things and then we just kept on pushing and eventually we developed a strategy

that proved to be true proved to be right so that's how it happened slight sidebar I do want to know like human moments like did you get to go to your prom Do you... So amazingly enough,

I asked, when my mom first came home, I told her, I said, Mom, you spent 40 years in prison. I don't have a lot of money, but whatever you say you want, I will make it happen. I know a lot of people. I don't care what it is. Whatever you say you want, I'll make it happen. What was it?

And she was living with me at the time, and mom said to me, she said, honey, I'm just happy to be home with you. She said, you gave me everything that I wanted. And now I want you to be free. And I want you to fly. So I'm like, all right, cool. So when my dad came home.

Wait, wait. So quick, quick sidebar, the song that you hear when the film ends, fly baby, that's him. That's him on track, Fly Baby. Right. Based on that conversation we had. So when my dad came, came. home. He says,

I say the same thing to him. Dad, you've been in prison 40 years. You can, I don't care what you ask for. I don't have a lot of money, but I'll make it happen. What do you want? He said, Mike, I only want one thing.

He said, I want to marry your mom. Yeah, I said, that's what he was going to say. I knew that. Wow. He said, he said, I want to marry your mom like I should have done 40 years ago. Oh, Tom. Tommy, is it going to be an episode of Black? What we're doing?

What we doing? And then. So you will, I got you because what I did, sorry to cut you off. But what I did, there was so much footage that did not fit. And had so many interviews with Mike and with his mom and with Mike and Debbie. And so it's just a lot of really cool things. So I cut a 35 minute epilogue. And it looks at them.

And it is just so sweet. I'll actually send it to you. I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you tonight. Oh, me. And it's actually going to be on HBO as well. And so it'll be so, like, additional content. They are so TV ready.

They are so gorgeous. It is so, I sent it to Mike and his parents about a month ago. And it was just. You get to see the wedding. And the wedding cake, the four-tier wedding cake, we made my mom. Yeah. So my mom is a, I'm a 50s man, like at heart. My mom is a,

30s woman at heart. She, when they said $1,500 for a cake, what? I'm not paying $50. I'm not letting you pay $15. So I'm like, she said, we can make that cake and it'll be a great moment. I said, yeah, okay, let's do it. It took us 11 hours. In the song, I said, we spent the night making her wedding cake.

Wow. And that cake is in the thing. Yeah. This is now about to turn into reality show, Tyler Perry's the Africa's. The Afri, yes, the Afrika. Yo, but don't that Tyler touch it, though. Like, are you, Tommy? This is the Afrika's.

We're from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum. Yes, love and activism. You guys mentioned something that I personally wanted to know. You know, there was a moment in the mid-90s, the late, the early aughts, in which a lot of conversations about Mumia's future was up in the air, you know, stay of execution and all these things, haven't heard much since, you know, like I guess 2004, 2005. Occasionally, when I talk to Tom Arello, he'll give me an update.

in general is there and I don't mean the kind of hope where you're like we hope this happens where does Mumia stand right now as far as his case is concerned is there any hope

or for his eventual release or total exoneration or just the general story definitely so that's what we're working on now So, you know, it's funny, like, the HBO poster has a picture of me and the move nine above me, and it says he will never be free until his family comes home, right? And that's such a true statement.

Mumia, I've been, I've known Mumia since I was a kid, and my work around the Move 9 doesn't end with trying to get them, trying to get them home is equally distributed and probably even more so with Mummia. Like, I have just as many files on Mummia as I do on the move 9. And so my work has been in large part to help with his case too. And in the early part of this year in January, he was granted by Judge Leon Tucker the right to appeal his case. And a PCR post-conviction relief appeal was granted. And so it was in Larry Krasner's hands. Larry Krasn was then attacked by Maureen Faulkner

as being saying that she was saying that he was prejudiced he was on Mumia's side and all of this so she created this thing that got it pushed into the Supreme Court's hands and so now it's kind of in limbo and with COVID things are moving much

slower but the answer to your question is yes there's a real chance that Mumia Abu Jamal could be free and we're working on that very hard and if we can get the result that we expect that we can get

ironically enough we could come home during that 40 year mark too Wow Where's he at now? What year is he? Right he's at And on December 9th This December 9th marks

year 39. Yeah Okay. So next year is year 40 and we expect that we can get him home within that year 40. Okay, can you, are you allowed to speak at all what your personal theories are? Similar to good sort of saying that it was most likely friendly fire and this was a setup. Is, what is the story on on that particular with Daniel Faulkner and that case?

The story is Mumia was a cab driver. who was dropping off a fair and 13th and Locust at the time his brother was a his brother and his brother's friend were vending and they were when he pulled up on the scene

when Mumia pulled up on the scene he saw his brother's brother being beat by policeman Daniel Faulkner with a, he was beating him with a flashlight a police flashlight Mumia goes over to intervene

the officer shoots Mumia and Mumia is shot unconscious and beaten and taken to the hospital and when he wakes up, he's handcuffed to a bed and he's told that an officer was killed and he's the one being charged with the murder. That's what happened. And there are so much, like,

so many witnesses who said that Mumia did not do it, do it. He was not the shooter. But there are so many, like specifically Veronica Jones was an eyewitness said that Mumia Abu Jamal did not shoot this cop. We saw the man who did it.

We saw him run away. There were more than her who said that. The security guards that were intimidated into, they were intimidated by the officers into changing their stories to say Mumia Abu Jamal was the one who killed the cop.

So there's, all this evidence that proves that Mumia is innocent but you know because he supported move the way he did Rizzo threatened him he actually said it in a press conference if these reporters blah blah blah blah blah we need to get that death penalty back

then I'll be there to pull switch that kind of thing so Moemia supported move and that's and so he was a target because of it any other political prisoners in Philadelphia that we might not be aware of yeah Russell Maroon Shokes

Joseph Jojo Bowen, Fred Muhammad Burton. There's a lot of political prisoners in Pennsylvania. And then there's a lot outside, too, Mutulu Shakur, a stepfather of Tupac. And then some people are not even political prisoners, but they're exiled because of the tyranny of this country, like Assad of Shakur. So, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of repair that needs to be done. But my focus specifically is on Mumia. We have a real shot to get him out. and I mean I focus on Maroon too

and Fred Mohamed Burton too and I speak their names and everything and I support them 100% too but Mumia is a very very personal battle for me because of how he was there for my family when no other news media was there for my family. Shout out to the Philadelphia police.

They got some spanky. Yeah, the things I learned man. what can I say? Like I really want to thank you guys for doing this just that you know as as a black man as a

as a Philadelphia definitely this is this is one of the kind of the unanswered questions that I've had in my life that I didn't know about and I'm so glad that the world will finally

get a chance to see this documentary. Can we just mention a mirror? You're not going to plug it, but I will. This is the first project that I've seen your name, Black Thought, Comment, John Legend, right? I forgot that. Mike Jackson.

I'm just saying. This ain't about me, man. I'm just saying, but that's dope that y'all saw that there was a reason there was a need for you. Yeah, I totally forgot. Yes, we did music for the project as well. Forgive me. Like, no, for me, like, the story is so,

the story's so important that, you know, I kind of forgot that I played a part in this as well. And I'm glad to be included, because I was feeling a certain way. Might I say that I really appreciate your involvement too, because, you know, it wasn't, a lot of people are really afraid to talk about this story. A lot of people were really afraid to get on board and support move, even though they may have been sympathetic. So I really, you know, was thrilled to hear Tommy tell me like, hey, guess who we got to help with the film? And I'm like, who?

He's like, the biggest band you can think of. And I'm like, what? What do you mean the biggest band? The only band. He's like, no. The biggest, okay, Philly, think Philly. And I'm like, Temptations? He's like, yeah.

And I'm like, no, you didn't. You know, so like, yeah, man, I just, you know, really appreciate you, you know, and gave Tommy a chance to show it to see the film, you know, so I just want to thank you. No, thank you. When, I got to admit when it was happening and my manager, Sean G told me about it. He was like, yeah, you know, common in John Legend. I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. I knew you did, Amir.

I would have did the same thing. They can't hop on it before me. This is my shit. Well, time out. I mean, technically. You know, a lot of John's education and wokeness, and right now he's a soldier. I'm going to fight you, yes. Was acquired and learned.

At you Penn. At university to Penn. No, dude, right now, John. Yo, word to the mother. I'm not cutting John down at all. I was just saying that you was from the area. At the rate of the toxicity that's happening right now with a lot of my heroes in hip hop. No, John's the shit.

And he ain't scared. Yeah, John Legend is, yeah. Trust me. He's front line. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, yo, we got to get somehow get down with this. So I'm very happy. As somebody who is from Philly, who grew up on the roots, and there was just, there was

nothing better than that. And shout out to Derek Dudley, who's the person who actually introduced me to Sean. And he was like, done. I got you. Sean came to the office, watched it. He's like, yeah, yeah, we need to do this. And it was just. It's just been nothing but love the entire time.

And I got to, I got to admit that this was, um, probably the perfect platform. Sean couldn't have been happier, um, to have made this happen because, you know,

we, we, we had, um, uh, we had a passing of, uh, like our manager, Richard Nichols was like,

you know, he was, he was like our fifth beetle. and when he passed away in 2014 to leukema, it was kind of an unspoken thing. Even though I never believed it in my heart, it was sort of like, well, I guess we're not going to make records anymore. And, you know, I spent a lot of time since, you know, late 2013, early 2014,

thinking of, you know, other ways to be creative. And that's when I started writing a lot of books and doing like a lot of other things besides making, like any excuse to not make an album. So, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't think of a better way for us to get back in the studio six years, seven years after having not created anything inside of the studio with each other than this project. So, you know, again, I think you both because this, like once we started this, then this really just unleashed a flooding.

You know, we're subsequently working on three records right now. Well, thank you, Tommy and Mike. Yeah, that's what I said. You too. Thank you, Tommy and Mike for it. I am very happy to have played the smallest. Yeah, that's like, for me,

but I wasn't going to say it. But bring the roots back from the fear, yeah. Absolutely. I'll take it. I'm putting that in my bio. I like that. Can I put that in my bio? Yes, you can.

I can't wait for the world to actually hear the tracks. Yes, because I don't even know what you're talking about. Because nobody's heard them yet. And so you can hear it in the trailer. You can hear one of the instrumentals and then one of the things, one of the songs afterward, which is just fire. And Tareek, so there's this line. First time I heard it, I just, it stuck with me so much.

And what he says is every time I fight, the reason I fight is to not fight again. and as somebody who grew up in Philly fighting, you don't fight because you want to fight. Like that's not what it's about. And so he just captured it so succinctly and to understand what Mike's doing, what we're doing in this movement. It's not about fighting for the sake of fighting.

We want to fight to get things into a better place for us, but also for our kids. And so the music is just, it's fire. And so I cannot wait for people to actually hear all of the tracks, the whole EP and it's just, it's fair. I got to say that you know, for a lot

of for a lot of, I never said the Roots Army before my life, but I guess I'll see you now. A lot of people that have history with the roots, you know, for the longest, they've put us under, you know, this, I guess,

you know, socially conscious or political rap thing. which, you know, I used to joke a lot and say like, well, okay, I know we're politically correct, but, you know, just because, you know, we aren't cutting keys and drug dealing in our songs doesn't necessarily mean that we're a political group per se. And then there became a point when we were like 35, like, all right, someone's going to call us out one day and realize that we're not as political as we were. So, you know, a lot of. our post-2008 material, especially, you know, the time in 2008 when the murder rate in Philly was astounding. And we were under what we thought was the worst presidency of all time with Bush. You know, it was like, okay, well, we can only go for so long talking about, you know, how

diggedy dope our stiggity styles are and riggedy rapping. And so, you know, we kind of had this streak of like the last four albums of like these like dark political records, which I don't think was performative of all, but really, like, represented where we were at the time because, you know, you can't turn your back on. No matter, like, how much success you have, like, you still have a cousin. Like, you might, the same with your fight. Like, okay, great, you got your parents out, but you know there's more fight to go. You know, I kind of thought that we were going to close the chapter on the darkness of Roots albums with our last album, and then you shoot your cousin. Um, basically because that was the album.

that we were making as our manager and co-producer, Rich, was dying. So if anything, that album was more of our very dark goodbye to him. So I'd sort of forgive Roots fans for like, I was way too dark for me. I can't take that shit. But, you know, if you knew Rich, that was like the perfect send-off. So the thing was, in my mind, I thought, okay, well, we are going to, I'm going to shock the world and just return to the first four records. Like the Sunday afternoon house cleaning roots album that everyone wants us to do.

But we're living in, you know, this time now, you know, since 2016 and utter madness in the upside down. And I was like, yo, man, it's not time to make a lighthearted record. Like, we got one more, like, this is our chance to make our statement. So if anything, I feel like this album really puts in context of what the last five, albums have been about so yeah i'm i'm excited for people to hear it um you know and again we're making three records so this is this is just one of three uh of of us uh unpaid bill what do you think oh no unpaid bills on sesame street this is sugar steve wait damn sugar steve yeah you know i'm just i'm just here to gather information report back to the white people so i'm just funny but it is not

He said that. He did. He did. How long did it take for the, I'm sorry to extend the, sorry to extend the goal. Sorry. I didn't want to leave him out. No, Steve has lived with this project enough because he's engineered the record for us.

So he's well-versed. I mean, I haven't seen the documentary in full, but I do never leave. My one question was, how long did it take for you to make this documentary from start to finish? it took about three and a half years and so about two and a half years or so of shooting and about a year of editing i have a fully archival question once again yes also because of what i'm working on right now i just discovered did you use any of the archival footage uh do you know of this woman in philadelphia whom, I guess her backstories that she did not trust the government.

I actually thought she was down with move. She did not trust the government, a Philadelphia woman. And what she did was she purchased five Betamax machines. Yes. And she obsessively, she obsessively recorded. The problem, it was, I found, I came across her. I saw an article. and I looked her up.

The problem was her recording started, I think, four months after this. And so it just recorded the new. She recorded everything. Yeah. She has this incredible database of everything that happened. It was insane, but we could get a thing. Yeah, think of a, think of a pop. She would have been a perfect fit for Quest Love Supreme.

Like, she was a pop culture hoarder. Like she recorded, she recorded, I don't know how she, I don't know if she had a job or anything, but she literally recorded whatever was on television. What, 37 years in a row? Yes. I believe that was, she started in, what, 77, I think? I think it was sometime in 78. Okay. Yeah, she got five beta max machines, said I don't trust the government.

So I'm going to record everything on NBC, ABC. So she brought five VCR, five Betamaxes and five televisions. And all she did was she would change tapes every four hours like clockwork. It was insane. But like over, I think like 4,000 tapes at the end of the day. So, yeah, I wanted to know if you used any archival footage. Honestly, if we start actually talking about our archival process, we'll be here for another 45. Oh, yeah, no, I didn't want to know the process.

I'm sorry. And I didn't mean to. So the name of the film. Who do you think it's referring to? I assume that it was about Mike because. And the other members. So, see, that's the thing where some people would be like, oh, yeah, it's, it's parents. Or maybe it's parents and Mike, no, no.

It's the eight. It's, it's Mike. Oh, it's Mike. It's Mike. And if you, in a mirror got him. Oh, right, because he's a piece of pride. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

And his dad is the one who really brings that home in the end where he talks about us being home freed him. And it took the burden off of him so he could actually live his life. That's funny about that. I never knew my dad felt that way until I saw that interview. Again, learning as you learning. On behalf of Quest of Supreme, we thank Mike Africa Jr. and Tommy Oliver for joining us on behalf of Fonticelo. And I'm Pay Bill and Sugar Steve and Laia and Philadelphia Zone from O'Sage Avenue. Questlove.

This is Questlove Supreme. Signing off. We will see you on the next go-round. Thank you. Yo, what's up? This is Fonte. Make sure you keep up with us on Instagram at QLS and let us know what you think and who should be next to sit down with us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast.

All right. Peace. Questlove Supreme is a production of IHeartRadio. For more podcasts from IHeartRad. visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This week on the Sports Slice podcast, it's all about the NFL draft.

And we've got a special guest. The director of the NFL's East West Shrine Bowl, Eric Galco, joins the Sports Slice podcast to break down what really matters when evaluating draft prospects. From hidden traits, teams look for to the biggest mistakes franchises make. to the players flying under the radar. This is the insight you won't hear anywhere else. If you want to understand the draft like an insider, you don't want to miss this episode. Listen to the Sports Slice Podcasts

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