The Questlove Show - Ralph Johnson of Earth, Wind & Fire

Episode Date: July 6, 2026

Earth, Wind & Fire's Ralph Johnson sits down with Questlove for a wide-ranging conversation about the music, moments, and mindset that shaped one of the greatest bands of all time. From spinning Benny Goodman records as a kid and witnessing a transformative James Brown concert in 1966 to navigating Los Angeles during The Watts Riots, Ralph reflects on the experiences that set him on the path to becoming Earth, Wind & Fire's legendary drummer. He also shares stories from the band's early hustle—playing legendary clubs, piling into station wagons, and chasing every opportunity—through their breakthrough audition for Clive Davis and the evolution into a groundbreaking live act known for its unforgettable blend of music, magic, choreography, and spectacle. Along the way, Ralph discusses the artists who inspired him, his work producing noteworthy tracks outside of Earth, Wind & Fire, and Maurice White's vision, spirituality, and enduring influence on the band's sound and philosophy. He also opens up about the group's 1983 breakup, the enduring legacy of songs like "September," and what led him to write his memoir, Life in Harmony: A Memoir with Earth, Wind & Fire. The conversation, which also celebrates Quest's latest documentary, Earth, Wind & Fire: To Be Celestial vs. That's The Weight of the World, closes with Ralph reflecting on why now felt like the right time to tell his story, as well as the passions—from cooking to art collecting—that continue to fuel his creativity today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. The Questlove show is a production of I-Heart Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Questlove show. I'm your host, Questlove. You know, in past episodes, I've been talking about a lot of metaphysical woo-woo talk. Pretty sure that unless you're very, like, spaying a brand new to this show, you know that I've been working on this Earthwind and Fire documentary for the last,

almost two years. By this taping, it would have been on HBO earlier in June, and it's entitled, Earthwood and Fire, to be Celestial versus That's the Weight of the World. Why such a long title? Because you know me well. One of the most important subjects and voices in that particular documentary about Earthwood and Fire is with us today. He's the Grammy Award winning inductee into the Rock and Roll Hall of fame and the songwriters Hall of Fame. And pretty much from the early 70s, he was the drummer, percussionist, one of its vocalists, songwriters. In addition, he's produced for other acts, including Temptations, Howard Hewitt, Blue Magic, so many more. And he has done us the honor of making us a stop on his promo tour for his brand new book entitled Life and Harmony with Earth, and fire. And I had the privilege of pinning the forward to this book. I suggest you all get it. A lot of tippets in there. What can I say, man? I am talking the one and only my first drummer on the show. Get, no, no, you got to. Wait, oh. Since the Quest Love show, since this iteration

on my podcast, I've had, what, like at least six bass players. A lot of bass players, not one drummer. See how I manifest? I thank you for, I thank you. I'm honored. So I'm going to ask you, what was your first musical memory in life? Your first memory of music. Well, there's a couple. There's a couple. But the very first one is my father brought home an album entitled Benny Goodman Live at the Brussels World's Fair, 1958. Okay.

And on that, I began to listen to this tune called Sing, Sing, Sing. Sing. Yeah. And the drummer at that time with Benny Goodman was Roy Burns. Okay. Roy would later on, and I would meet him and tell him this story, I would meet Roy much later on at the NAM show because he started the Aquarius drum head company. That was him? That was him. I did not know that.

Yes. Yes. And so that was my first memory. Okay. Going back to like vinyl. Mm-hmm. But then my first live event was myself and my buddy Arthur Copper, who I went to, uh, elementary school with, we always played in bands,

went to a James Brown concert, and I can tell you the date was January 1st, 1966 at the Los Angeles Sports Arena. You saw prime James Brown. Three drum sets on stage. I was messed up. What was that like for you? I was blown away.

I said, first off, why would you need three drum sets, you know? But it made it was just such a powerful presentation, you know. And so, of course, I maintained my interest in James, Brown from that point forward, you know, I never missed a concert. But those are my early music memories. So you're a second generation of musician. Your parents were... Well, my mother was a vocalist, not professionally.

Okay. My father was a lyricist, not professionally. So I suppose that's where I got my songwriting talent from. What was it about the drums that called you? Like, why did you choose the drums? Or do you play other instruments now? No, no, no, no, no. I don't play any other instruments.

You know what? I don't know if any of us can say... what it is about that particular instrument that pulls you in. It's just they noticed, my parents noticed, that I would sit in front of the TV when various variety shows would come on, like say maybe Ed Sullivan. And I would just sit there and just get into this kind of thing.

And so I finally got me some sticks, and I kept until that Christmas, when we got the snare drum, under the Christmas tree, and that started the whole thing. But I don't know what it was. So answer your question, I don't know what it was.

It was just one of those things. another musical memory. The first time my father took me downtown to the Southern California Music Company, and I walked in, first off, there was all these brass instruments. And back then, manufacturers were using lacquer, and you could smell the lacquer. And when you walked into a music store, that lacquer was all over the place. I distinctly remember that smell. So that's a, that's a prime memory.

Absolutely. Were you born in Southern California? Born and raised. 28th in Hobart. I'll go back to the original Fat Burger. You wouldn't know about that. We'll talk about that later. Okay. Tell me, all right, so tell me about life in South Central back then. Let's define what you're calling South Central. Because some people would say, well, east of Main Street and then south of, say, century would be South Central. Okay. I came up on the west side. I came up on like 98th and 8th Avenue. And that's why I wound up going to high school in Inglewood. I graduated from Mount Vernon Junior High School, which is now called Johnny Cochran Junior High School, in 66.

Okay. And we moved to Inglewood, 9th and 8th Avenue. And the forum was just being built. Okay. I remember seeing those concrete forums that grew up the side of the building. Okay. They were laying out on the ground. I was like, man, what are they going to build here?

Looked up. It was a forum. And then one of my greatest moments ever was to get my parents into the forum. when we were selling it out five nights in a roll. Wow. But grew up in L.A., and, yes, was a fan of Fatburgers, yes. So, again, my, you know, I was born in the 70s, so of course, you know, when we hear of South Central Los Angeles and all that stuff, you hear of the civil unrest, you hear of gang activity

and whatnot, like, was it like that? I mean, you know, you were a young teen in the 60s and. The Watts riots. That's what changed everything. I distinctly remember the Watts riots. Tell me about it. I mean, where we were, the rioting was not heavy. It was just sporadic, you know,

breakouts here and there. It was very heavy going on in South Central. And the thing that blew my mind was one evening, summer evening, we're just sitting out on the front porch. And an army tank came rolling down. Army tanks were not something you saw on the street. Right. You saw them in movies.

And it blew my mind. I said, man, it's a real army tank going down the street. And then at that time, my older brother, who retired from LAPD as a lieutenant, was in the police academy at that time, getting ready to go into the police force. But it was a crazy time, man. And then, you know, hey, still today, we're trying to do the best we can out here. How did that personally affect you in the neighborhood after 1965? Actually, it didn't really affect me.

I mean, you know, we were aware that there was some trouble out on the south end of the city. It didn't really affect me. You know, you had your head on a swivel, of course, everywhere you went. Did you go out much, or were you more of a homebody? Well, you know what? Actually, I've always been mostly a homebody. Okay. I'm quite happy just when, like, when I come off the road, I'm quite happy just being at home.

I see. You know, and just hanging out. Okay, so I know about the master's children, but like, how did you interact with bands back then? How important were bands back then in the neighborhood? Well, yeah, bands in the neighborhood. That's a, you know, that's another movie. Bands in the neighborhood. Yeah.

That was very important coming up because that's how you got to, you know, learn about the other cats of the neighborhood who were playing. Maybe your same instrument, if not, you know. And that was the network that you developed. up early on that you would probably keep for the rest of your life, you know? And so you would bounce around from band to band. And I certainly did until I wound up with the master's children at Mavericks Flat, which was a big club in the 60s on Crenshaw Boulevard in the Baldwin Hills area. So back then, was it fairly typical that one out of three people knew how to play a musical

instrument? That's an interesting stat. One out of three, I don't know. Well, I definitely know that the idea of a musician, I was told Nixon's budget cut in 73, suddenly all those things were taken out of schools. So in your schooling, was it required that you learned how to play an instrument? It was not required.

Okay. You could learn to play if you wish to learn to play. And so in my elementary school, in the fourth grade, I was already in an orchestra playing drums. Okay. Now, today, try and find an orchestra in an elementary school. You can't, where is it? You won't find it.

So I was introduced very early on, and I took lessons very early on. As a matter of fact, I took my first drum lesson in April of 1959. I believe that's the date, yes. Those same books like syncopation for the modern drummer and stick control. No, you know what? I wasn't turned on in those books yet. I would discover those books with a much better teacher later on. Okay.

When I got to Grant's Music Center in LA. No, it started a snare drum method book by a drummer by the name of Haskell Har. You can still find his books. Yeah. But anyway, that's how I started. And then, you know, I just started playing around the neighborhood, doing all that. And then finally, I found this place called Grant's Music Center. And this is where all the cats were coming to study and network and get gig.

and stuff like that. Henry Grant owned it. And that's where I wound up with probably the greatest teacher ever for me, Clarence Johnston. Okay. Who also taught Raymond Pounds. Ah, Stevie's guy. Yeah, there you go. Raymond Pounds and Clayton Cameron. Oh, really?

We were the three that Clarence had that went out there and did something. It was because I saw Raymond playing with the Grant's big band and swinging, and he said to swing going, tank to tank to diggity higgity higgity higgity higgity higgity higgity pang chan i was like whoa wait a minute and i went to him and i asked i said man where are you getting this stuff man and said grant's music i said okay fine and i went and signed up and i spent man three or four years with clarence johnston that's how you got your jazz chops up yeah oh absolutely because you got to look jim chapen's advanced

techniques for the modern drummer yes you know you got to play in that book very very Very familiar. Yes. Very familiar with it, you know. Okay, so I'm a credit head, liner note head. Were there any other notable musicians that will wind up being your peers years later that you ran into when you guys were young teenagers in the 60s? Besides Raymond Towns. You know what?

Not at the top of my head. Okay. Of course, that may, I mean, we may come back around to that. I mean. Okay. So in starting a band, what's required? Like, how do you know which song said no? Like, I don't know if there's a fake book for James Brown or those sort of things.

Well, no, you get together with the guys for the first time. You just kind of sit around and you jam. You're just playing anything. It might be a funk jam. It could be a straight-ahead jazz jam. It could be anything. And you see how that feels. And what you're looking for and what you're testing for is the chemistry amongst him.

musicians. How does this bass player feel? You're thinking this to yourself. But it feels pretty good. What is a guitar player? Okay, what is he? Okay, the keyboard is. What is he doing? And you're checking all this out because as a drummer, you're hearing it all. You're sitting back and you're going, okay, yeah, all right. So you're looking for chemistry because that in the end is going to be the bottom line, the chemistry amongst the players. That to me is what makes, it's a given, that all these guys can play. Right. But see, all great musicians can't play together.

Oh, I hate when great musicians are together. Okay. It's like an all-star game. Right, right, right. All great musicians cannot play together. Yeah. Because you've got to get that ego stuff out the way. Right.

You know. Gotcha. So what you're looking for is great musicianship, great attitude, great chemistry. Because at the end of the day, it's going to be the chemistry that carries the band through. if you can get through the rest of that stuff. In the mid-60s, when you're a teenager,

is jazz the most likely destination you want to wind up with? Like, I know that for a lot of the 60 musicians I talk to, they kind of look down on pop music, like, Motown's just toy music or bubblegum music or the Beatles or whatever. Well, because I came up listening to R&B and most of the R&B stations, although there was a 20, L.A. had the first ever 24-hour jazz. jazz station, KBCA 105.1. Okay. He said in his best

DJ voice. I see. But I grew up listening to a lot of R&B. So it wasn't that I was growing up. I never had a thought of saying, well, professionally, I want to be a jazz musician. I knew I was going to be with an R&B type of situation, because that's what I was listening to mostly. But I had a deep appreciation for the jazz side of things. So before your

destiny was determined, who did you imagine that 15 or 16, man, if I could play with blah, blah, blah. Like, who are you aiming for as a young drummer, teenager? I thought that as a young drummer, being able to play with, like, Freddie Hubbard would have been interesting. Ooh, surviving the Freddie Hubbard. I thought, if you're familiar with Freddie.

I thought that before he had his stroke. I would have loved to have played with Keith Jarrett. Wow. Because the trio configuration is my favorite configuration. I can just give me drums, bass, and piano, and we'll create the stuff. Got you. There's enough there to create some stuff. Okay.

You know, it's all about your imagination. So, yeah, those two for sure. One big band, Gerald Wilson's a big band. All right. So you definitely wanted it. Because Jero was local, and I could go see him. So jazz was your, that was a good. destination point for you. Well, it was a good destination point, but it's not, needless to say,

it's not where I wound up. Right. And not necessarily where I was trying to aim. But also, sort of, I mean, you know, but I made sure I studied it. You guys had chops. You know, I studied it. Clarence made sure that Raymond and I and Clayton could play some straight ahead stuff. Got you. Listen. And you're there. for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph. 2026 FIFA World Cup.

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Okay, so tell me about the legendary Mavericks. I'm sorry. I see this. Always over. That's all right. Mavericks Flats. That's the black version of the rural juror. Mavericks Flats.

Actually, it's Mavericks Flat. Mavericks Flat. Mavericks Flat. Okay, one, where is it located? On Crinch-2-25, Crenshaw Boulevard, just south of Stocker on Crenshaw. Okay. On the west side of the street. Now, what period is your Mavericks Flat?

That's 68, 69, 70. That's what I'm. playing every weekend at the club. Okay, so can you just give me a typical run-through? All right, let's say it's March of 1970. Is, one, is Mavericks Flat like the spot I want to go to? If you hit L.A., you want to hit Mavericks Flat, yes. Okay.

It was probably the hottest black club going. And there were other clubs. There were other clubs on Crenshaw, but they just didn't have the attraction. Who would play there? Oh, man. Parliament Funkadelic would come through there. So if you're an established Black Act, you could come through there and play. How large is the...

Oh, it would only hold about... Although John would make sure that bad boy was packed. Legally about 200 people, maybe. Okay. Maybe not that. I may be over. Because it was an upstairs and the downstairs, but all the entertainment took place. Downstairs.

Now, DJ called. or it wasn't a thing yet, right? So all music had to be provided either a jukebox and a band. There was a jukebox booth. Okay. He had his turntables and he would play music throughout the club. Okay. Yes.

So even if bands weren't on stage, there was always music. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Okay. And I would assume that you would have to be good in order to get there. I'm only asking you this once because I believe in our interviews. I forgot who it was, but someone.

Somebody mentioned that when the original pre-classic... Look, when I say Earth Went and Fire, I mean you guys. So the band that was Earth Went and Fire before you guys... Right. The Warner Brothers Band. Yeah, the Warner Brothers Band. I heard that they were met with indifference because they were a little too free jazz and not enough...

Yeah, and I think part of it was the look they had. Okay. So it wasn't... Were you there at night or... No, no, no. Okay. So what did you hear? It's what I was hearing that I think was Bob Caballo, one of our managers at that time,

told Maurice, like the idea, but you got to get some younger cats. Got you. Okay. You know, you got to go with a whole other look. Because these cats were wearing fizzes and beers. It was just, if you compare the two looks, you'll see what I'm saying. Okay. When you're playing there, how many songs do you have to learn weak?

Like, what's, I want to know what the division of labor was in terms of, like, Like, whose job was it to buy all the 45s to learn the songs? Did you all just have to, on your own? No, the 45s were usually there because they were part of the playlist on the weekend. So somewhere in the DJ booth, we could find the 45s and we had to do. And it's basically required for you to know whatever it was hidden at the time. You know how to go. Let's put on the, okay, listen to your part.

Okay. Okay. So you want to do chat, gochah, goon, gung chat. All right, I got that. You know, learn your part. Base player sit there, hear the notes. You learn, you know, that's how you did it. Put on the record and just learn your stuff.

Got you. Yeah, you just, you learn your parts. You listen and you learn the part. Because there was no sheet music. Nobody was giving you sheet music with a 45. Right? Got you. So you just listen.

What was your idea of quote unquote making it? Like, did you feel as though as a musician, you could make a living just, by playing in a band, playing in a, playing drums, or... I felt that was possible if you were with the right situation. And so, if I could have a car and live in an apartment, then I felt like I was making it. Okay.

That's where you begin to think you're making it. Oh, dude, I totally just... Come on now. I wanted a crib in your car. Well, this is why I learned that I'm insatiable, because I got the crib in the car, and I was like, well, wait, I want this. And then I got that. That's part two to that whole thing.

After you get the basics in place, you go, okay, yeah. What else? I like that, Picasso. Right. You know. Exactly. No, you're spot on by saying that. How did you meet Maurice White?

I met him at the first time we had our first rehearsal. You never met at average. I was aware of him. I had seen him play on TV with Ramsey, but I had not met him. So it wasn't until our first. rehearsal that I met him. Who recommended you to Maurice to... Well, this was part of the audition thing.

My audition was with Michael Beale, the original guitar player, and Burdine White, the bass player. And we just sat around and jammed for about 45 minutes. And then after that was over, Burdine called Maurice and he said, Marie said, what did you think?

And Virginia said, yeah, he's the cat. And we just went off from there. Do you know what number you were as far as the order of... Well, I know Verdeen was number one. You're asking how many drummers auditioned? Well, no, no, no. I just meant in terms of, like, what's the pecking order of... I know Verdean was first.

Who came in sec? Like, were you... I was like the first one to come in to the new band. Okay. And then Philip and Larry, you know, then Al and Johnny and Andrew. So one by one, each member came to... Yep. Okay.

Philip came in after me. Got you. What did you hear about the first iteration of the band breaking up, starting on Louvre again? You know what? I never heard anything about them about how or why they broke up. Okay. I just knew that I was being called to be a part of this thing called Earth, Wind, and Fire. And I knew they had done two albums previously on Warner Bros.

So I had to assume at that point that something happened that caused that whole thing to go away. You know, I don't know what exactly transpired. I don't know how Maurice went to them and said, hey, guess what? Surprise. Right, it's over, you know. Right. So what was it? Do you remember the very first day where the nine of you are together in a room about to play for the first time?

Do I remember the very first? There have been so many days. No, I can't say that I can remember the exact first day. You know, I can only tell you that any time the nine of us got together and started playing, it was some pretty cool stuff. Really? Every time. Do you remember, like, what you first played was, just a jamming thing? It's usually jamming.

Okay. It's usually jamming. And probably Al McKay started with a lick. Okay. One of his famous licks, you know. And we would just jump in and start going. With the group that large, you know, oftentimes there are cliques. You know, we have it now.

There are smokers, non-smokers. The vegetarians hanging together. The non-vegetarians don't, you know, those who drink go to the bar, those who don't. Hari Krishna's. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So who were you clicking up with as far as those nine?

Like, who was your buddy? Initially, Al McKay. Okay. Because we were both from L.A. I mean, Al wasn't born and raised in L.A., but we came up in L.A. together. Okay. And our paths had already crossed. You know, so initially, Al and I hung tough on the road, man.

So before the record deal was like in place because I know that you guys had to audition for Clyde Davis to get on Columbia. Yes. How did you guys eat? What were you doing for a job while seeing is this thing going to work for real? And when you're joining, are you joining under the pretense of, of like, hey, I'm joining a future major band or a configuration. Or do you just think...

You know what? That's how I looked at it. I thought I was joining a major situation that was going to develop into something, you know. In the meantime, though, I was just getting a gig here and there, just doing what I could to, you know, make ends meet. Got you. But I felt like it was a major move that was coming up. Okay. By joining Earth, Wind, and Fire.

and as it turns out, it turned out to be pretty cool. There's a lot of small tidbits for the sake of storytelling that I had to leave out of the dock. However, why? Why did you leave them out? Why? Because, man, it's better storytelling. But one of the most curious things that I could not figure out for the life of me is that your audition, typically when you're auditioning for a label, you know, You get a space, a rehearsal space, a studio or something, and the guy comes to you. And in this case, you guys had to audition for Clive Davis by opening up for, of all people, John Sebastian.

Well, my, let me say, let's back up. Okay. Because I keep hearing you say, we had to audition for, well, no, we didn't have to. It's just that that's the way it turned out. It wasn't, you're putting kind of like, yeah, you have to. I always feel like everything you did was a do-or-die situation, at least for those first three years. Which is good.

But we had already auditioned for Clive by the time we were open for John Sebastian. Oh, okay. We auditioned for Clive at Sunset Sound Studios in Hollywood. Okay, because that's the part that was killing me. He walked in with a couple of his guys. We played about three numbers. He got up, and I was standing by the door for some reason. He looked at me and said, I'll be in touch.

I don't know what The next thing I knew, man, we were signed to Columbia Records. Gotcha. And let me just say about that whole thing, Earth, Wind, and Fire was the right band at the right time, with the right music,

with the right record company who had the right president. All of that was a musical perfect storm. Okay. That's what it was, man. And Clive was so much into it. All right, I'm glad you cleared that part up. I wish someone told me that for the film,

only because I thought that you guys, like Bob Cavallo told me that John Sebastian, whom if you guys are old enough to remember, Welcome Back Cotter. Love and Spoonful. Well, love and spoonful, but also you sang the theme to Welcome Back Cotter. But also Hot Times, I'm in the city, yes.

Right. Loven Spoonful was playing at the Lincoln Center, and I'm trying to imagine what his audience is thinking, watching you guys as crazy as you are on stage. Like, certainly it was a departure from the John Sebastian genre. Right. And so my thing is like, that's of risk because you have to win that audience over so that the president, I mean, that's a good tester. But you know what?

See, I don't know if Clive was sitting there going, oh man, I hope they win the audience over. He, he, Clyde was in. Okay. Clyde was convinced. Got you. So it didn't matter. We could have bombed that night. Okay.

Which we didn't. Yeah, I was like, we could have bombed that night. Right. But Clive was, would have been like, okay, all right, let's get in the studio, cut the record and let's go. I see. Now, because Maris was an established drummer and percussionist, did you ever feel like you got more direction than your other bandmates? Like, was he? No.

No, not at all. Although Maurice and I had a lot of great conversations about drums and drummers. And I can tell you one of his favorite drummers was the drummer who played with organist Jack McDuff. His name was Joe Dukes. Okay. Look him up. I will look him up, you know. And he's talking about Joe Dukes, man, Joe Dukes.

But, I mean, we had a lot. He was talking about Tony Williams. He introduced him to Roy Haynes. Maurice gave me an album by Chick-Correa. Trio once again, right? Yep. It's entitled, Now He Sings, Now He Sobs. Are you familiar with this?

I'm familiar with it, but it's a great trio album, and it's, of course, Chick on piano, Miroslav Vitos on bass, and Roy Haynes on drums. Okay. What does your top three come to Jesus moments as far as, like, records that, like, changed your life in terms of your craft?

Man. Well, I usually ask if your house burn is down. What three records are you saving? Oh, not to put it like that. Well, you know you got to take Marma Gays what's going on with you. Okay. If the house is burning down. Right.

After that, I think I'd have to grab earthwind and fires all and all. Wait a minute. Time out. I'm talking about... Well, you said, well, you said I could take it. You didn't forget. I could take any three. Forget the house burden down.

Okay. I'm just saying, let's start over. Yes. What three records would you say are just the most influential on you as a drummer? Okay. Influential as a drummer. Yes. Okay.

You know what? Okay, you got to give me Miles Davis, Purge and Bass. Okay. What is it about that album? I love the collaboration between him and Gil Evans. Yes. Right? Mm-hmm.

One of three. Maybe four, because there's one you never hear about called Quiet Nights. Okay. Okay, you're right. Right. Skeeters and Spades, Porgy and Best. Miles ahead. Miles ahead, yeah.

Right. Which is one. And I was going to say, so on the Porgyn Best album, there's a tune on there called Gone, Gone, Gone, Gone. Yes. Do, do. Dun, da-da-da-da-da-da-d-d-d-lap. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-tun-d-d-d-t do-coo-coo-buttah. Who was that playing drums?

And he's one of my favorite drummers. Philly? Thank you very much. Philly Joe Jones. Yeah, that's what to say. Now, you know Philly Joe Jones has a solo book. This thing. He has a solo book?

See? I did not know this. See, that's one of the reasons I'm here today. That's about it. Yeah. It's to tell you about the Philly Joe Jones solo book. Okay. It's about this thick.

It's 300 some odd pages. And it's every solo that Philly Joe ever recorded transcribed with the sticking. So there's a fake book for Philly Joe Jones. Dude. I'm telling you. I did not know this. and if you can find the spiral binding, get it. Because then you can open it up and actually study a page.

Otherwise, if it's a regular, you know, paste binding, it won't stay open. But yeah, man, I found this online. I have given some out his gifts. I said, you've got to have this. Yeah. And it's not like you have to study a whole solo. Just take one line of any song. Okay, this, you know, he's sph-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-b-d-b-d-b-d-b-d-b-d-d-d-d-.

You know, he's spoh. piece. How do you eat an elephant? Piece of the time. Come on, come on, Chris. Come on, work with me. Does he always come with these sayings and idioms all the time? I'm sorry, I'm showing out now. No, man.

This is schooling me. But I want this to be memorable. Any conversation I have with you is memorable. Okay, all right, okay. I went to high school with Christian McVryde and Joey D. Francesco. So in order to survive them. In order to get their respect, I had to learn this.

In order to get their respect. I love Christian McBride. Yes, man. He's got a trio. Yes. And there's a live recording he did in New York here. It might have been the Village Vanguard. Probably on there.

They have a version, and I played on my show of Michael Jackson's lady in my life. Has you heard this? I know this. come on man i know come on chris is my man oh it's great it's my man all right so i gave you miles davis miles ahead yes i'm going to go back to another miles davis album hit me and the reason i'm going to go back to this miles davis album i don't know if you knew this because it was the last acoustic album miles recorded before he went electric with in a silent way that for tini thank you very much yeah man Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d.

Yeah, I will say that, okay, one of my dreams was to hear the outtakes. Okay. And I used to bug her about it. So what's notable about the title track of Nefertiti is that Miles and Wayne are playing the straight guys by not soloing, repeating this line, add nausea all over again. Yeah, because there are no chord changes. Right.

It just goes on. It just goes on. But Ron and Tony Williams are just... And Herbie's having us some fun. Yes. He's having some fun. He's just letting them go absolutely part of my French ape shit. Yeah, amen.

Like him and Wayne are just playing it straight. And one, I kept asking her. I was like, yo, like, I've never heard a jazz song in which the leads don't take solos, but the foundation are the ones that are doing it. And he's like, you got to listen to the outtakes. And what's so weird is, so they went through about four takes of it. Really? On take number two, there's a moment where Herbie and Miles and all the, you know, Tio's letting all the banner out on tape. didn't stop the tape.

And by take two, they realized, oh, wait a minute. Wait, are you going solo? And the way they laughed when they realized that nobody was taking a solo. Right, right, right, right. They were just doing the line straight. It was like a, not a joke, but it was so funny to them that they forgot to take solos. They was like, nah, man, just leave it. It's going to be funny.

And I was like, that was mind-blowing to me. Interesting. The thing I love about Nefertiti is, I've always thought that that melody was very haunting. Especially with the fourth time it comes in the... You know, when they add the octave, you know. Yeah. And they play behind each other.

Right. Slightly delayed, yes. Yeah. Very haunting song. All right, so we need a third album. And fall, I will say that fall is probably my favorite. The song that comes after Nefertiti, Fall is like one of my favorite. Oh, yes.

Yeah. Yes, yes. It's a great tune. All right, so. Your third album. Okay, okay. Here's what we're going to do. Just name the third album?

Here's what we're going to do. Here's what we're going to do on this third album here. Stevie Wonders, music of my mind. It is not the first time that's been mentioned on this show. Really? Because Stevie was starting to get into this whole synthesizer thing. And he went way in on it on this album. I love when hearing people talk about this record on this show.

All right. So the first time that you're hearing it, do you have any expectations or people hyping it up to you already? Like, you got to hear this record. Or, like, how do you receive it? I'm going to tell you. Okay, got a great story about that record. The first time we played Washington, D.C. Okay.

We played the D.C. Army, and that's when the parliament, boncadulics just tore us up. So another story. Oh, trust me. I know that story. That's on the documentary. I know that story. Somewhere.

It's there, yes. But there was an after party. And so we went to this after party. And the first time I heard that album was, it's the opening tune. I love having you around. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, whoa, what is this?

And that started me into that record. Really? Yes. Yes. And I came home, I said, give me this album right here, this one. Wow. Okay. So what about those three choices?

I totally see it. And I agree with you. I, too, love those three records. Listen. And you're there. For heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph.

In 2026 FIFA World Cup. The knockout stage. Every match. Every moment. Listen on TSN Radio. Join the globe. On the road to the July 19th final. I know.

2026 FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on IHeard Radio. Did Marees ever discuss the, I. of, okay, now we jokingly say respectability politics. But then it was dignity, sophistication, black joy, excellence. Did he ever sort of explain to you guys? It's not like he ever sat down and laid out a blueprint.

Okay. You know, we all knew that he wanted to do music with integrity. And he wanted to do music that would deliver a message, you know. As he says, render service to you, man. by way of the music. So, no, it's not like he ever sat down and said, okay, look, here's the plan. ABC, D, EFG is what we're going to do bang, and we're out there.

No, we just let him lead. Just let him lead, because he had it all up here anyway. So one of the most fascinating things that I've learned about you guys, especially in dissecting the story, was how challenging maybe the first two to three years was. Because a lot of us will tend to think that you guys literally just, landed from the sky and these awesome Bill Winton outfits and were ready made. They're wrong.

They're wrong. They will learn this. But it's also important to see the best thing about this doc, I think, is when you guys have a challenge, the way that you pivot. Now, one of the things I was shocked to learn about, you know, because I thought that, oh, when you go on tour, it's like every tour where there's a luxury bus and bunks and the thing that you shocked me with was that you guys were driving station wagon. So can you, for our

listeners, we're referring to, you just said it. The station wang of days. All right, so tell me about typically like, because that to me is like you go on stage, but are you your own roadie as well? Yes, we are. I pack my drums many many a night. Are you kidding?

So you're your own roadie? Yes. We had two guys now. We did have two guys that would get to step out the truck in the beginning to, but we had no problems with setting up our stuff at all. We were... Is this why you play with the small kit?

No, not necessarily. Not because that was going to be easier to set up. It's just, that's the kid I chose to play with. Okay. Because all the photos I've seen, you... Three piece, four piece? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, many a night I set up my own stuff.

Absolutely. And I had a great Ludwig drum story for you. Tell me. Because at the rehearsal the other day, I commented on your snare drum. Yeah. I said, man, it looks like a Ludwig superphonic. And I want to tell you that when I was in junior high school,

I carried with me all the time a Ludwig drum catalog. I was going to get a Ludwig drums. And I did. I got me a beautiful, silver, sparkled, silver, super classic. Fell in love with that drum set, man. Weren't you playing on the gratitude album, I believe you're playing with? I think I had Twin Toms. That wasn't the super classic.

That wasn't what I started with. Okay. But, yeah, man. No, it's the best sounding timeless. Come on, come on. Ludwig drums, man. Timeless. And I became a member because Ludwig was sponsoring this.

There is an organization called the National Association of Rundamental Drummer's, NARD. Okay. And you had to audition to become a member. And I remember driving up to, because I lived in Inglewood, in the Hollywood, in the Hollywood to professional drum shop on Vine, which was across the street. street from the musicians union. That's still there? I mean, the one I... Pro Drum Shop is still there. The musicians union is out in Burbank. Okay. Okay.

And auditioning for the owner at that time is stepson's now on it. Bob Yeager. Okay. And if you ever get a chance, go on YouTube and look at the 60th anniversary of Pro Drum Shop and look at the history of that shop. But I remember having to audition and demonstrate I could play the rudiments. And so today I have this certificate in my studio on the wall, says N-A-R-D, National Association. And the date is March, 1972, I believe. So even with a deal and established, air quotes, you still had to go there to show that you... Yeah, absolutely.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I got this. Okay. Yeah. Okay. One thing I couldn't get into, only because there's literally no history of, well, one, relatives or anything, and Jessica's not here anymore.

Mm-hmm. Because many people don't know. I mean, they love keep your head to the sky. They know she exists. But, I mean, how hard is it for Jessica to gel in with the rest of the guys just in terms of the wear and tear and the travel and what you have to go through to make it? Actually, Jessica fit right in. She would hang with us.

She was like one of the cats, you know. Gotcha. But I think eventually, man, you know, sometimes you can get a little distracted, you know. somebody might introduce something or someone. And it can be a big distraction. Eventually, you know, Reese said, hey, look, we got to part ways. Gotcha. You know.

But it's been on the record that substance abuse entered the picture. The picture, no doubt. So, I mean, how hard is it to adjust to Reese's philosophy of clean living and spiritual living, like, on the road? Like, were you guys expected to follow his diet and all those things as well? Well, first off, let me say it wasn't like it was a mandate. Okay. You know, all right, here's what we're doing and you're going to do it. Right.

No, that's not how it went down. Because Reese led by example. So instead of telling you what you should be eating, he might say, hey, man, come up. I'm going up a Hollywood Boulevard here to Johnny Wisemiller's Hellfood store and pick up some vitamins. you'd go, oh, really? And what is that for? And you get into it. And eventually your mindset would begin to absorb this stuff.

You would take it. It would become a part of you. Okay. So when I entered the game, I will say that was the first year of like 94, 95, really 96, but let's say 94, the commercialization of wellness. You know, you can go to Whole Foods. You can go to Freshfields. Like, each town has that specialty store if you want to do healthy, clean living.

But how are you maintaining that sort of clean living if you have a show in Alabama or Mrs. And, you know, nothing, I'm not, it's not shots fired to Alabama. But I've been to many a southern state where they kind of laugh at you because it's like, you know, plant basis. Because they don't, right, right, right, right. So when you're in middle America. If you're into that kind of lifestyle, it's going to be hard to maintain that because that's not a uniform lifestyle across the United States of America, you know. So you just have to pick and choose your spots. But today.

But some nights, you guys like, look, we got to Kentucky fried chicken and that's when you go to catering and just have a salad. Oh, okay. You know. But I mean, no, because we have excellent caterings. You know, we try to keep it on the right level. I don't have any complaints about catering. Have you played, man, look, when you play the venue up in Toronto, their catering up there is off the chain.

Oh, dude, I could write a whole Zaggett guide on. When are you doing this? Because you need to get started. Well, I mean, you know, after this documentary thing is done. There's 12 more I got to make. Trust me. No more for me. When you guys are coming up, and I, okay, so there's, you know,

well, it already aired on HBO, so people know. And we talk about the P-Funk situation and you guys having to get your funk together to handle them. I always wanted to know, were you guys even aware of the song, let's take it to the stage by Parliament Funkadelicant, which, I mean, you know, it wasn't just you guys.

They were playfully going after Rufus and Slime. Yeah, yeah, I remember hearing, but I... What? Really? Okay. You didn't. No, come on. All right.

Let people have their fun. There you go. There's another story I wanted to tell but couldn't. The war story. Do you remember this at all? War wanted to headline and you guys wanted to not be first. So there was like a group that opened and then you guys went on and absolutely murdered and destroyed. And then like half the house leaves after you guys are done.

kind of leaving war with an empty house at the end. At its most, before the Bill Whitten professionalism of Earthwin and Fire, like what bands were in the scope of we have to blow them off the stage? Or just anyone could get it back to it. Anybody that was on stage with us was in trouble. Because we knew we were a hot band. We knew we could play. If you were on stage with us.

But what band secretly? I mean, look, we could be diplomatic now. Well, you guys are too around now. We knew there was some payback coming with the Funkadelics. Okay. Okay. That was like, no matter of what, we're going to get the Funkadelics. How did you feel about the Commodores?

Well, see, the Commodores, cooling the gang, Tower Power. You know, we were trying to get all of them. Okay. You know, so any time we were on stage together, it was a thing, you know. But we would go out and, you know, we're always very, very focused. Okay. And that's one of the reasons why still today, before we go on stage, we gather in a circle

and just kind of pull the energy in because once we hit the stage, we're just in this thing. And we're not going to stop until the last song, you know? The one photo of you guys that made an impression on me as a kid was the dust sleeve of gratitude, which is a bird's eye view of the California Jam? of Cal Jam, 150,000. You know, the numbers keep changing on that. You know what else is interesting?

My wife was there. You were at Cal Jam. Wow. Did you guys meet then? No. It would be years, much later. I watched that Cal Jam performance and sort of tracking the band's adventures

in terms of learning from past mistakes. I would just say a lesser band would have probably gave in to the fear. And this is after establishing the Philadelphia story with the Uptown Theater, which, you know, the main word is Philadelphia.

We are known to boo. We have booed Beyonce. We booed Santa Claus. Oh, my God. You didn't booed Santa Claus. We did. Oh, no. Philly has like top ten.

I don't know how you can boot Santa Claus, top ten boom moments. Yes. Players that retired, throwing batteries at them because they still lost the game. No, we are a rude city. So you getting booed at the uptown is just, that's the way we say we love you.

But, you know, was there any fear whatsoever like right before Cal Jam of like, so Cal Jam is a Woodstockian kind of. Yeah, but I want to say something about the fear thing. We never had any fear. I don't remember ever having any fear about going on that stage doing a show. It was like, okay, count it off, let's go. That was our attitude. Not one person's thinking like, no, no, no. Nobody in this audience knows.

You know what, let me tell you. We were like the Navy SEALs of R&B. Once we locked in and had the mission straight, it was over for whoever is on the other side. Okay. That was all right. I'm telling you that was the attitude. You don't have to tell me twice.

You're in an urban fire. Like, duh. Like, you know, that was like, hey, man. Okay, just Maurice counted off. And here we go for an hour and a half. So there was never indifference or folded arms or a long face that we were in the mission together. Okay. The Open Your Eyes album, what makes that notable for me is that you guys decided to shack up Caribou Ranch in Denver, Colorado.

In the wintertime where it's super cold. Man. Oh, man. And isolated. So what was the decision? decision to isolate yourselves outside of the comfort of the city and all those things to make this record? Well, that was it to get away from the comforts of the city, to get away from any distractions of the city. Maurice just wanted to be along with the band in a creative space and

just work on being creative, coming up with the best product we could come up with, the best songs. Free that's the way the world, what would you say was the time spent on the road, like as a road person, how many, I don't mean how many gigs would you do a year, but just not being home. Were you 100 day a year? You could be on the road eight months, not consecutively. Okay.

It would be broken up. On and off, four and off, eight months. Easy. How do you maintain home? Like, is someone mowing the lawn? Is someone paying the electric bill? The first thing you do is moving to an apartment so you don't have that kind of overhead.

Okay. No. Sure, it would be tough to maintain a home, but then, like I just said, man, if you lived in an apartment, you have to worry about that kind of stuff. And I didn't get married until 79. Gotcha.

So at that point, I already had my home. I just needed a beautiful lady to kind of hold everything together. There you go. So there were challenges, but you knew what you had to do. You know, so the home life could, suffer, maybe not. Did you, as far as the recording of Open Our Eyes, which a lot of people feel

that's the beginning seat of you guys really finding your way. Interesting, I've always thought that that album was kind of a turning point musically. If you go back to the song selection, like for instance, spasmodic moves, a bebop thing. Yeah. Well, I'm inside too. It was always the fun part, you know. Yeah, right, right, right. So do you consider that the last of the old era, whereas that's the way the world's the beginning of a new era? I consider that album, the beginning of a new musical journey. Now, is Charles Stepney aboard this time? Yes, yes.

Okay, so even though he's not going to be passed when we started working on Spirit. Okay. As a matter of fact, we were about to cut the track. I was sitting on drums, and the phone rang. We were in the studio. About to record Spirit? The title, the actual title track. That's weird.

I thought you guys wrote Spirit. after Charles died. No, we were, I was sitting, we were going to record it. I'm sitting on the drums. And Maurice got the phone call. He says, hey, man, Charles just passed. I was like, oh, man. So we went in and proceeded to record Spirit.

Now, explain what Charles' role in the band was and how important he was and what he brought to the table. Well, Charles Stepney and Maurice went way back to Chicago, I mean, because he's recording with Charles all the time at Chess Records. Charles Stephanie was an incredible, incredible composer, arranger, and he was very instrumental in the beginning stages of Earth, Wind, and Fire. With the production, with the arrangements, if you go to our very first album on Columbia, last days and times, his arrangements, he was very instrumental in getting us on track.

So, and see the light, like he's doing all that crazy whirlwind of horns. It sounds like a tornado. That was Charles Stephanie. Yeah. But that's how broad he was with his arrangement skills. And if you ever get a chance, man, listen to Minnie Ripperton's first solo album. Yes. All the time.

All the time I listen to that. Okay. Come to my garden, man. Some great stuff on there. Okay, so probably the most notable thing about that's the way the world, to me, that's a sort of like a time capsule, is that's also the beginning of deep snare earthwind and fire. Deep snare, earthwind, right? Now, here's the thing, like, for me, as far as my favorite all-time song, like, Mighty Mighty is to me one of the greatest, like, I'm a crack snare guy. You know what I mean?

Like, Ferone, Steve Ferone's like my idol as far as, because I love the sound of a crack snare. Right. So Steve Ferron's work where average white band was like, so I have a question about that. Are you one to,

because I've been one for years to, because there's some cast that will play stick to the center of the head, and that's the sound. But I came up playing rim and hit at the same time. Oh, rim and head, always. I always, my stick always goes to seven a, a clock to 11.

Right. Right. Right. I have zones where I hit. I never hit dead center. Right. I've not played traditional in decades. It was Sonny Emery that got me started on match.

Really? Yeah. When Sonny was playing with the band. Really? So you were always traditional grip? I was always traditional. I was always traditional until Sunny came along. I said, oh, match grip.

And I started experimenting with it. And so I go back and forth. It depends. I will play traditional. because when I play traditional, I hit lighter. Ah. And because... Well, yeah, because it's a different touch.

It's a totally different touch. But here's what I learned, though. I learned that the lighter you hit in the studio, the boombastic loudness that you want, you have to play soft so that it doesn't destroy the mic that you're on. Like, if I were using Sure 57s, then I can just whack all the day play. Yes, yes. The engineer is always like, dude, the more silent you play,

the more I'll really engineer you to make you sound like King Kong. And then once I realized that, then I started playing lighter. But for you, though, drum tone-wise, look, I respect deep snare tones. But it was never my favorite. Like, how did you feel about machine of it all? My go-to snare was always the Ludwig Superphonic 400. Okay. Why is this?

because it was just so easy to tune. I always loved the sound I got out of it. I just never had any complaints about it at all. Until I switched over, and now today, I'm playing DW drums. Really? Oh, I have a beautiful DW set at home. You would absolutely love it. Okay.

But live, though, you and Fred would crack it up. Yeah, crank it up. So, wait, is it true that Fred came aboard because you had strep throat one night there's something. Well, I did. There was a case where I came up, but Fred was already in the band. Okay. I had to go home one time, though, because I had strep throat. Okay. Yeah, it was bad. Have you ever had strep throat throat? No. Dude, you don't want strep throat. How long were you out for? About a week. Oh, okay. About a week, and then I came back, you know, but, uh, look, anytime you can't drink water

without your throat burning, you know, you've got something. Oh, that's crazy. I definitely don't want Strip throat is no fun. But anyway, but for double drummer groups, I mean, there's the Doobie brothers, this is the Amman brothers. James Brown. Yeah, James Brown, you guys, how hard is it to adjust? See, right. Like someone has to be 49, someone has to be 51.

How do you decide who's the lead? Well, you know what? We didn't go through a long period. Freddie and I did not go through a long period of trying to get the eagles out the way. We just immediately understood what we had to do. It couldn't sound like two drummers. It had to sound like one drummer. Got you.

Even though it was two drummers. So we got all that stuff out the way and we just locked it in. We didn't go through a lot of changes about that. Listen. And you're there for heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage. And breathtaking triumph. 2026 FIFA World Cup.

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So ramping up Earthwind and Fire to the point where now you guys are a stadium act, an arena act. Can you just talk about the sort of upgrading of it all? like bringing in George Faison, bringing in Doug Henning and his assistant, an unknown named David Copperfield, like the idea of magic. Like, are you guys having meetings and he's telling you like we have to do a different presentation that we've ever done before? Well, it wasn't like Maurice called a meeting and said, okay, look, this is where we're getting ready to do.

He would just do it. And he might say, okay, look, we're going to get this majority. magician, Doug Haney or David Copperfield, to come in and give us some extra stuff. Because he really was about presentation. And I like what George Faison says in the documentary, he says it was theater. And that's what Maurice wanted. He wanted the music side, but he wanted some theatrics. He wanted more than just some guys standing on stage playing their axes, you know.

And so that's how we got into the whole theatrics thing. I think Verdeen said you guys rehearsed for five months. Is that true? Like you had to rehearse for five months to make sure? Well, but yeah, because there was a lot going on. We had a lot of stuff going on. So, yeah, we had to make sure we had it down. And Maurice wasn't going to leave the city until we had it all the way down.

So, yeah. So how long would it take to lock just with music before you even start with, okay, now we have to lock with music and dancing? That could be about a month. just making sure the music is all the way down and making sure it's the right set list. So what George famously did was take you out of your comfort zone and brought you to the forefront. How hard was it adjusting to now being in the front line as opposed to being in the back line, hiding one, back of the band, two, behind your drums. So you're literally now without a shield or the shield of a mic stand.

What was that adjustment like? Actually, the- And did you protest? No. No, I didn't protest. But let me also say, I was quite comfortable sitting on the drums and was not expecting to be brought out front to do vocals. I never asked for that position.

That's not something I wanted to do. I just wanted to stay in the back and play the drums. So was it so that Maurice and Philip weren't a duo, but now there would be like three people? There would be people flanking Maurice, myself and Phil. That was the idea to give it more symmetry. So you had Maurice, then you had Phil and Ralph. But why not Verdeen, who's very energetic? Because Verdeen need...

Could he dance? Or could he move? Well, the kind of choreography that George Faison was laying down, Verdeen would not be able to do with the bass guitar in his hand. Okay. It just wouldn't be feasible. Okay. It also goes for the guitar players, although the guitar players did quite well.

Al, Johnny, Andrew was a great dancer, you know. So, no, we just, whatever George showed us, we just tried to work on and get it down. How foreign did it feel for that first week, though, to just... Or what did you discover in being in that front line? Because it's not like you were demoted. You were actually promoted. I was promoted, yeah. But you were also...

without your shield. Like, I'm certain that you came in this world, like, I'm a drummer in the world's greatest group, but now I'm a singer in the world's greatest group. So it took some adjustment on the vocal side because I was not a vocalist. Dude, I was not prepared vocally to take that on, that front, that out front thing.

So Maurice was cool enough because he was studying with a very famous vocal, teacher in L.A. Seth Riggs. He said, Ralph, I'm a senior Seth Riggs. You're going to take lessons from Seth. I'm taking care of it. Just go. And that's how I got my vocal stuff together. So you had to do that, moo,

moo, moo, moo. Oh, yeah. Na, nay, nay, nay, nay. You know, all of that. Yes. Nice. And I still use those, by the way. I don't do them every night. But if I feel my voice is a little off, I'll go in there. Michael Jackson's entire 41-minute vocal coaching thing with Seth Riggs is on YouTube.

And that's what we all, yeah, like all 41 minutes of Michael and Seth Riggs. Yeah, man. That's what I do it too. But I didn't have any fear about being out front. I had no fear. I was like, okay, all right, well, new surroundings. Here we go, you know. What was the best earth, wooden fire show ever?

In your mind, oh, nothing beats this night. Well, I got to tell you, people still talk about the tubes. the tube show. When the tubes would come down, it would be nine tubes. Yeah. And they would come down, they would light up, they would light up, then they'd go dark. And when they lit up again, we were inside the tubes. And then the tubes would raise up, we'd come off stage.

And the exploding pyramid with the robots, all of that, those, that, the tube show was probably the great, great show. So the 77 all and all. Yeah, all of that right in there, yes. What is the best city for Earth, when and Fire, to perform? Like, when you go there, oh, my God, I can't wait to go back to. Am I going to get any cards and letters if I say the city? No, you know.

Okay. That's a killer question. You don't have a favorite city? But I'm working on that right now. I'm processing this. Okay. I got to tell you, I have a lot of great memories of Washington, D.C. Well, yeah, it's Chocolate City.

The Capitol Center dates we did five nights in a row. Capital Center is no longer there. Yeah. Look, man, anytime we play L.A. at the Hollywood Bowl, that's a thing. Anytime we can play Madison Square Garden or Jones Beach, it's a cool thing. It's a cool thing here in New York. Got it. And then you know what?

Give me Royal Albert Hall in London. Okay. And we can... Those are some of my favorite places. Okay. For 70s era, Earth, Run, and Fire, is there such thing as a struggle city? Even in the Routes Hay Day,

I hate it play Miami and Vegas. Because... They just... Why did you hate to play Miami in Vegas? I mean, beautiful places to go to... I mean, Miami is a beautiful place to go to, but we could not penetrate that market for the life of me. Even to this day, we might do Miami, like, maybe every other year.

You couldn't penetrate it from a live standpoint or... We could, but, like, again, like, D.C. has always supported this, mainly because there's a radio station that literally caters to the music that we do. And it's still there. Howard University Radio. It's WHUR. Right. Know it well. So thus,

the audience supports us. We really never hit it. There's something about Miami and their club culture that just never resonated with our natural organic soul thing, despite them having

Henry Stone's, you know, label legacy of funk music. There's no city that comes to mind that we ever have. had to struggle him. Okay. Anytime we hit that stage, by the time the show was over, we got them. And that's just a fact.

Got you. You know, we never had to struggle. There's no audience that comes to mind that we had to work at trying to pull. No, we just, because Maurice used to say, look, don't worry about the audience. Keep the energy up here on the stage. That'll come. And it would. Okay.

So, you know, there's a part of the film in which you guys talk about. very frankly and honestly about the infamous 1983 meeting in which Maurice disbanded the group and all of you had to go your separate ways and without warning kind of make a way for yourself. But however, like a year into it, you already start your life as a producer. Can you talk about like how one, it took you to find your footing and to figure out what your next moves were going to be now that Earth wouldn't fire, you know, for now wasn't existing. Like, when it was presented to you, was it presented like the band's over and no more, or is it just like we're taking six months

off and maybe I'll think about it next year? It was presented as we were taking a break and we didn't know if we were ever going to get back together again. Maurice was about to do a solo record for CBS, and Philip was doing his record. Same with CBS, yeah, Columbia, with Phil Collins. And so, you know, after we got the news, man, you had to really just, because it was such a shock. See, it would be different, and I talk about this in the book,

It would be different if we had time to prepare for what was coming. Or Maurice had said, hey, guess what, look. A year from now. A year from now, six months, we're going to be doing a different thing. Okay, fine. But you just can't call a meeting. Right. Meet me at the complex tomorrow.

There's a meeting. And then get that kind of news. Man. So I had to figure some stuff out. What did you do for 24 hours after that meeting? I just kind of sat around and went, wow. Maybe he'll change his mind or? No, I didn't know.

No, I didn't think it was, no, I didn't think he would change his mind. I knew I knew that was the plan and that is what was going to take place. No, I just kind of sat there and said, okay, I got to. How long did it take you before you realized, like, this is real and I got bills to pay and all right, what's next? Well, it didn't take long at all. I mean, I had, you know, a family coming. And so, no, I had to jump into gear. So not many people know that you're responsible, probably for like one of the, I mean, yeah, I consider soul to soul classic temptations.

But you pinned and produced a treat her like a lady. Well, I didn't write it. Okay. Ollie Woodson wrote it. The lead singer at that time who rest in peace is no longer with us. Yeah. But Al McKay, I was over at his house. He was living in a Los Felous area.

Okay. And he said, hey, I always call me Slick. Hey, Slick. Want to help me go into the studio and do The Temptation? I thought he was joking. Okay. Because we were both Motown addicts. So, you know, anything Motown, we were into it.

I said, yeah, I'd love to. And sure enough, man, we went in the studio with the Temptations. One of the best projects I've ever done in my life. It was called Truly for You. Yeah. And from that album came the hit single, Treater Like a Lady. What did that feel like? That was kind of surreal because while I was hearing Treater Like a Lady on the radio,

I was still working at this plumbing company waiting to get it together. Right. To get pulled out of this thing I was in. You know, so that was kind of interesting. And then at the same time, I had a tune on Philip Bailey's Chinese Wall album, which is the album that Phil Collins did. Right. So I had these things, little things, bubbling, but it wasn't going to be enough to, like, really make a major difference at that moment.

So I had to really figure some stuff out quickly and jump in and engage. You also wrote, let me talk on faces. Yes, I did. But I was that. Yeah. I had a piece of it. How do you? Well, okay, so how does, how can you elbow your way into the system?

Like, as far as I'm concerned, like, Al McKay is the golden guy. Well, one, he has a guitar, so if he does something melodic, it's very easy. He's like, oh, that's a song. And he would do that frequently. He would do that. Yeah, he would do that. He would wait for more. He would taste a beat.

Dude, look, I saw it happen too many times. And so here we are soundcheck. And now I was just like, and Reese would be like, What's that? What's that, man, what you could? Look up, it's a song. Got you.

So that's how. For me, it was different because I had to, because I didn't play a melodic instrument, my way in was going to be lyrically. So I would go to Maurice and I finally did on a tune called Welcome on the Heritage CD. Okay. And we went to them and I said, man, look,

let's write. man, let's do some writing. He said, okay, man, I got this tune right here. And we work on Welcome. Okay. I only asked about, let me talk, because it's kind of weird that you don't often hear about, usually at the top of the decade, you might hear one or two references to, like, for hip-hop, like, when the 90s were coming, they would say, oh, man, it's the 90s, the 90s.

And the thing that I'm noticing about the Faces record was, and let me talk, there was some wondering, you know, there was thoughts in the air of what will the 80s be like. Like, will this destroy it? It's almost like you guys predicted what would happen to people in the 80s, not knowing this. And, you know, I saw it almost as a prophetic record. kind of thing, yeah. Yeah, and wondered how. Well, it's not, it wasn't something that was intentional. I mean, you know when you write, you're not editing when you write. You're just writing.

Right. You know. And so that's the way that lyric turned out. And if it is or was somewhat prophetic, then that's the way it was supposed to be. Were you shocked that another client of yours, Bobby Glenn? Bobby Glenn. Were you shocked at how 20 years later, really 30 years later, on Jay-Z's The Blueprint album that came back to life,

Song Cry sounds like a love song, sounds like the intro of Song Cry is Bobby Glens. Were you shocked at all that that had another lease on life? Man, man, man, I got a phone call. And I pick up the phone. And the person on the other end goes, are you Ralph Johnson? Yeah, I'm Ralph Johnson. He says, well, you've been sampled.

He comes right to the chase. He said, you've been sampled. I was like, oh, okay, cool. I'm like, so who sampled me? He said, JZ. I thought he was, dude. I was like, I said, this is what I said.

I said, the JZ. He said, yes, DJZ. I said, well, let me give you my manager's number and take care of the biz. And man, after Jay-Z did it, Keisha Cole did the same sample. Yeah. Trey did the same sample. Yeah.

Probably the biggest, most successful sample was Queen Nysha with Big Sean. Oh, damn. Hate our love? Yeah. Yeah. I got an award from ASCAP for that. And I was like, what? Nice.

You know, and so that was quite a moment. Because that tune continues to generate. Yeah. We still get phone calls. People are like, hey, can we want to use that? Yeah, go right ahead. Sometimes you can't call it. No, you can't call it.

I never thought I'd be sample. Are you? How did he find that? It was in a bin in Brooklyn. Yes, that's how. The label was some obscure label. It was called Coala Records. What?

Yes. But even with, I forgot about, Shelton Kilby. When did you work with Shelton Kilby? What do you know about Shelton Kilby? Yes. Yes. I mean, look, you know what? You know, Sheldon was a dentist? He was a dentist and he had a record. I think it was called BG Records. I think. Okay. Man, what? How'd you even find out about him? Where'd you run across that? Do you know who I am? Well, now I do. Dude, you trusted me to tell your story.

This guy right here is a journey. Questlove. No, man. There's, were there in, were there other projects? Like how does, well, I always wanted to know how Verdeen hooked up with pockets, but when Columbo Records is forming, yes. Like, are you guys given a chance to say, hey, here's this songwriter? Well, if you had something you could bring Maurice, then made sense, he would do it. At that time, I didn't have anything I could bring him that would make sense. So, got it. That was that. But to answer you, question about like not knowing when a song will bloom or something unexpected surprises. I mean, you know, you're living that in real life in real time with September.

Like with you guys and with Run DMC, I kind of laugh at how both groups have legacy songs. Like, Shining Star is a legacy song. Serpentine fires, like we can name at least 10 legacy songs. Same with Run DMC. Walk This Way was important for history. Like there's like at least five to six historical songs. But when the smoke clears,

for Run DMC, probably when all said and done, it's tricky. Uh-huh. It's tricky. It's their September. It's like no one called it. No one said this is going to be the song

that will be known for. Right. Because you don't know. How weirded out were you that suddenly, like, September just got a whole new lease of life out of nowhere? I wasn't say, I wouldn't say I was weirded out. Look, all these songs are like your kids or your children. And so if, being the parent you are, if they're successful, you're happy. So, man, as it turns out, September man is one of the most played, one of the most downloaded stream songs.

on the planet earth. We're happy about that. And I'm sure the writers and publishers are happy to. Shout out to Al. Listen. And you're there. For heart-wrenching knockouts. The world's biggest stage.

And breathtaking triumph. 2026 FIFA World Cup. The knockout stage. Every match. Every moment. Listen on TSN Radio. Join the globe. On the road to the July.

My 19th final. 2026 FIFA World Cup. Stream it all live on TSN Radio. Available on IHeard Radio. How cathartic was it to finally get to tell your story in your life and whatnot? Like how healing was it? Like what did you find out about yourself that you did? Because I think if you're making history, you don't come outside of yourself to look at it.

Like you're just living it. And, you know, what might be like? changing concert for me might just be a Thursday and Phoenix for you. See, so that gets into the question of why write the book? Why now? Why write the book then? And I always answer that question with the question. Why not now? See, it's one of those things that it happens in the spirit first. Gotcha. You wake up and you go, man, you know, I think maybe it's time for me to tell my story. and that's what happened with the book.

I just woke up one day and said, you know what, I'm doing this. I want to leave this behind and I want to share my story. And I hope that people find it interesting. What do you do outside of Earthwood and Fire that still gives you pleasure creatively?

I know about your foray into being a jazz DJ and on your radio station and whatnot, but what other things? things, what other creative mediums are you into? Are you good chef? Well, now, see, I wasn't going to go there.

But on the creative side, I love to get in the kitchen to cook. Okay. I derive an extreme amount of pleasure from visiting art galleries because I collect art. Nice. Okay. My wife and I have been collecting since 78. Nice. Yeah, so we... Any notable pieces that you own?

I just recently added to the collection Salvador Dali, which comes... Oh, you're a serious art collector. Oh, no, I've got a couple of things you might find... Interesting. Interesting. But, no, no, no. This Salvador Dali piece has what we call provenance.

And when you hear that term in the art world, it means chain of ownership. Okay. You know, where it's... Who owned it before you. And this Salvador dolly piece comes from the private collection of Pierre Arjale, who was Dolly's publisher starting in 1959 for 30 years. Okay.

So it does have provenance. It's a very important piece. I just started my art collecting game, like maybe for it. First it was sneakers, and then I got bored. Well, really it was record. It was always records. Then it was sneakers. And now I just, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you're, you know,

Your pocket is always burning. You got to do something. So. So you've started in the art game. Yeah, I've started on that. I have some notable pieces. Mostly, though, I'd like to collect work of fellow peers of mine. Yes.

George Clinton has made me four amazing pieces of just Afro-Futurist art. George paints. Oh, my God, in a way that you wouldn't believe. Yes. George's stuff is on. And I've kept it quiet. Like, when I do my art stuff, I don't brag because also aforementioned, whatever. Yeah.

Hove and Swiss. Right, right, right, right. Yes, they're collecting on a whole other level, dude. Yeah, if they find a new artist, then the price goes up for everything. They collect on a whole other level. Right. So that's the one thing I never brag about because. Where can I see George Clinton stuff though?

Is he online? Yeah, his stuff is definitely online. But check him out, man. I didn't know he painted. During the pandemic, he started. putting these pieces up and they're really, really good. And I snag about four of them. Well, my collection of art is very collected in that it's not just graphics on the wall.

It's art pottery. It's the books. Yes. Like the Seagall lithograph books. You collect, wow. Oh, no, no, no. See, look, let me say, just say this. If you come to my crib, next time you're in L.A.,

because I know you're a busy man. Yes. Come by my crib and just view the collection. Nice. It's African sculpture too. It's a whole thing. Okay. It's a whole thing, I'm telling you.

Of any artifacts that you've collected. And, you know, I'm a pop culture collector. I've collected lunch boxes, records, posters, old magazines. Like, I have a Smithsonian inside my crib. I love it. What are the three things that you've, that you've, that you've collected that like really, I don't know if anything's topping Salvador,

but I'm just saying within the collection? Yes. Or because I have other things that I collect. That's what I meant. Because I collect knives. What is it about knives? Just the design. Okay.

From Japan. And I collect folders. So they're not fixed blades. Okay. They're folders if the blade comes out. Collect knives. You're just reminding me right now. Wow, this is a hell of a way for this audience to find out.

For Tarek's 50th, my partner in the group, Black Thought, for his 50th birthday, I went out and got him an illustrious, like, we were having to be in Japan and happen to go by this. I mean, I don't know if it's, it's the top level, knife collection. Oh. And I forgot to give it to it. No, I'm world famous for like...

What kind of bullshit? Right. No, I, I'm world famous for like collecting and buying things and then I get home. You know, when you get home on tour. So does he collect knives or swords or stuff? Is this what you're... He loves to cook. Like, cooking is his thing. Oh, really? He cooks. People often laugh at me

when I say he cooks better than he works. wraps, that should tell you how good of a cookie is. Like, he's, I will put him against any Michelin chef, any grandmom. No, Tariq's literally the best chef ever. And so, all right, what have you had that he cooked that just knocked you out? You were like, man, I don't believe you did this. His crabs are, like, Tariq is the person that will, and I think it's, again, it's a cathartic act for him.

like he'll two in the morning, he'll simmer his beef Wellington or whatever on a low thing and then come back four hours later and it's still he'll add the right red wine to the thing. Like he is the, he's top level. Like that is, that is his thing. But yeah, his work with seafood is world famous. Well, you'll have to have some of my lasagna. Hey, I will gladly, gladly participate this. Look, I just want to tell you.

that probably of all the projects I've done with film, that this one, well, number one, this one's going to stick with me the most because of the method acting kind of entry I had to do in the film. Like I felt like in order to tell this film, I had to become you guys. So I spent literally just seven months, like, reading it.

Oh, I read every book. I was like, I went to Bronon and said, look, every book of your father ever read, give me a list. I found out what you all did. Like, I needed to become a member of Earth, Wind, and Fire. Did you read any Napoleon Hill? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. To this day, I meditate.

I do affirmations. I, all those things. Like, this particular platform is tired of me talking about how much I've done that. But no, this actually saved my life. Like I entered it really just like wanting to get to the master reels. Like, okay, now I got to do this project. I get to go to Sony and go through all the stems and hear the isolated drums and stuff. And I did.

But really in order to understand you guys because, you know, you might be familiar with how particular a certain sect of black folk are. when it comes to their spirituality. And if you're not really nailing Christianity as fire and brimstone as we knew it, then it's like, mm-mm. And I grew up in a kind of, mm-mm, yeah, yeah. Household when it came to Earthwind, Fire album covers. Mm-hmm. What's that sign?

Mm-mm. I don't know that about that. I like the songs, but, you know, the all-and-all album cover has been debated by many on-court and on. Man, look, are you kidding? Right. And so one thing I wanted to do was just dispel. Because again, they were like, mm-mm, that don't look like that's Christian. Like, that might be demonic, you know.

And finally understanding where you guys are coming from is probably the most life-changing. So, yeah, this actually did change my life. So I appreciate you. One, sharing your story, two, allowing me for the last two years to tell this story. because really I want, what I want people to take away from this is to dream in the most impossible time periods ever. And we're in 2026. It can't get no more impossible than this. So this is the time where we plant seeds and establish what our future should be.

And you're part of that story. And I thank you for coming on. Man, thank you for having me, man. Thank you, man. I didn't know we're finished. I had some more to say. Oh, tell me more. No, no.

No, I'm kidding. Ralph Johnson. I'm kidding. Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Next time, y'all. See you. Yes. Questlove show is hosted by me. Amir Questlove Thompson. Executive producers are Sean G.

Brian Calhoun and me. Produced by Brittany Benjamin and Jake Payne. Produced for Eyehart by Noel Brown. Edited by Alex Conno. I heart video support by Mark Canton. Logos, graphics, and animation by Nick Aloe. Additional support by Lance Cole. Special thanks to Kathy Warrong.

Special thanks to Sugar Steve Mandel. Please subscribe, rate with view, and share the Questlove show wherever you stream your podcast. Make sure you follow us on socials. That's at QLS. Check out hundreds and hundreds of QLS episodes, including the Questlove Supreme shows in our podcast archives. Questlove shows a production of IHeart Radio. This is an IHeart podcast.

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