The Rachel Cruze Show - Easy Ways to Diffuse Conflict In Tough Conversations (With Jefferson Fisher)

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

📈 Are you on track with the Baby Steps? Get a free personalized plan.   Money affects every part of life—your identity, your habits, even your communication. That’s why in this episode, lawyer and communication expert Jefferson Fisher is here to teach us how to have healthy communication and conflict around money.      Next Steps: 🎥 Watch my video Do This Now to Avoid Money Problems in Your Marriage Later. 💵 The simplest way to budget. Download the EveryDollar app for free! 📚 Learn more about Jefferson Fisher.   Connect With Our Sponsors:   Learn more about Christian Healthcare Ministries. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe.   Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 🎙️ The Ramsey Show   💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Money bleeds into every part of life. It's in our identity, our communication, our daily habits, I mean, everything. So today, one of my favorite guests, he's been on before, but he is back. Jefferson Fisher is here to talk about some wisdom when it comes to communication and conflict and how to do this well, because let's be honest, not all of us are great at it. So make sure to like, subscribe, and share this episode with a friend. All right, here's our conversation. Jefferson, thanks for being here.

Thanks so much for having her. Yeah, last time we talked, it was like via. It was. This is much better. It's from my eye now. I know. And yeah, it's fun. It's good. I love it. Your space is awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So I love all the content that you put out. I was just telling you before we hit record that I feel like I pull up Instagram and I'm like, I see you everywhere. And your whole message is really caught on. So give me like a brief summary.

Like how would you explain to someone what you do? I teach people how to communicate. Where somebody might teach you how to play an instrument, I teach you the chords. I teach you the notes to play. I give you the words. So I teach you how to say things with confidence. I teach you how to say things calmly and make sure you have control, which, as you know, leads to connection. Oh, which, yeah.

See, all the good words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was going to ask, what is the biggest mistake you see with people? When they are communicating, and especially with conflicts, like some disagreement starts to happen in the conversation. What do you see and exert, like, when you observe people, you're like, oh, that's, That was a mistake. That was a mistake. The biggest mistake is people think that just because you say it, it's heard the exact same way.

So just because you sent it that way, that's exactly how they receive it. That's rarely the case. I could say something to you, and that's not at all how you heard it. Why? Because you know you've been in those arguments with your spouse, with your friend, and you go, that's not what I said. And like, yes, you did. And what do they do? You go, okay, tell me, tell me what I said.

You all kind of challenged them. Okay, tell me what I said. And what do they do? They almost kind of rehash and replay it. And they're like, I said, you say it like, you say it like, that's not at all what I said. And I guess it is. And where they say, I wish I had it recorded. I wish there was a camera.

I wish I had a camera to pick up what you just said. Yes. Right. So it's that right there. So instead of this, that's not what I said dynamic. Instead, we can stop that if you just ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? It stops the back and forth and instead goes to what did you actually hear, which allows them to share it,

which then allows you to clarify. So the quicker you get to intense, the better it's going to be. Okay, that's so good. Okay, so when you are in conflict, or I'll speak for myself, and I feel like I'm not being heard or that someone else is defensive, and I find myself, I like physically tend to, I can like feel my body, like physically tense up. I can feel like a whoosh happen in me, right?

Like the adrenaline. I get louder. I talk faster. I do all the things that you shouldn't do in conflict. What is happening inside of us when conflict arises? or we're in a conversation that's like triggering. And all of that is happening. And half the time, not even aware of it, right?

It's after. But it's like, oh my gosh, I just got so worked up. What is happening, even like physiologically, like, right? Like our minds are going. I mean, what's going on in us? And like milliseconds, your body's immediately into fight or fly. Now, I know your listeners, they're aware of fighter fly, what it is, but they may not be aware of how it impacts your everyday conversation.

So when you say something that doesn't fit well with me, Maybe it's a tone I don't like. Maybe I didn't say it's an opinion I don't agree with. Your body goes, nah, I don't like that. Like in a millisecond. Yeah, I disagree. Nope. And immediately you either want to say something, so you want to go on the fight,

you want to say a hurtful word, you want to cut, you want to make them leave, or it's the flight. I want to, you ever had been on the phone with somebody in an argument, and all of a sudden it just got to a point where they just hung up on you? Yeah, you totally. Yeah, they're like, hello? I know they just didn't hang up on it. Yeah, they just injected.

Yeah, or they say, you know what, I'm out of here and they want to leave the room, slam the door. It's the flight. That's all it is. So in that moment, your body's going, I feel a threat to me, even if it's a difference of opinion. Yes. Because it might be that opinion says that I'm wrong. The opinion may not say, not even that I'm wrong. It might say my dad's wrong. It might say my grandfather's wrong.

It might say that thing that I learned at camp when I was eight is wrong. And we will do everything. We will ignore all evidence, all logic, just to preserve the, identity of what we know that makes us feel comfortable because we don't like change. And so, and little bitty micro moments every day in our communication, that's what happens. So interesting. How much we would protect ourselves? Yes. And what we think and believe, right? And when someone starts tapping in that, it's like, whoa, whoa. We don't like it. Yeah. And, you know, and even I mentioned social media earlier, but I'm like, even sometimes if I'm just like scrolling, there'll be some crazy

video of some crazy like person on one side of the aisle politically, right? And they're going nuts and all of it. Like when you see our world today in the state of how divisive, I feel like you can talk to people that, you know, grew up in the 70s and they have their list, laundry list of how the world was for them too. But I feel like it is unique because we have the ability to communicate with people we don't even know that we never have to even meet. And so when you see all that divisiveness, like if you could wave the Jefferson like wand over like life, like what would what would life look like that we are going to have difference of opinion, right, in our world? Right.

But you can also have relationship with a person that has a different opinion than you. And somehow we are not great at that is what it feels like. Yeah, we've gotten into this place where the opinion that we see has to agree with our opinion. And if I have an opinion, I have to share it. Right. It's not only do I have to make sure that I have an opinion on it, I now have to make sure you know my opinion on it. And so people make content about it.

People write in the comments about it. And it's always, of course, what? The most extreme opinions always get the most attention. That's the way it is. That's the one that gets to clickbait. It's usually ones you most disagree with. I mean, we all have, I mean, I have grandparents that will pull up these links I see on Facebook that are fake. You know?

And they're like, can you believe? And you're like, that's not real. It's not real. It's not real. Yeah, yeah. No, it's satire. And so there's a lot of that to where you go. it's they are what are they doing in that moment they're pushing the button yeah on that stress response

of going the world is changing you are not and i don't like it it doesn't feel good and and there's an opinion that i have to share with everybody because we know good and well that they're uh especially on certain social media platforms where people will even if they have 10 followers they will be so against and act like they have just put out the most, the most important post on the subject that's ever existed. The Middle East will have peace now. Exactly. Exactly. It'll be like this paragraph long and three words in it are going to be totally all caps. And it's like, I've now said my peace and everything will be calm if everybody just listens to me. And so it kind of gives them their own little megaphone. For sure. Okay, so how do we live in a world?

And from like a big social standpoint, like we're talking about, but even just interpersonal relationships where you do have an opinion, what's the balance of I feel like, you know, there's this, I don't know, conviction. I don't know what you would call it, except I feel like there's certain camps of people that would say you need to stand up for X, Y, and Z. Yeah. But yet I talk to people in another camp and they're like, just have peace, you're okay.

Everything's fine. Like, you know what I mean? It doesn't have to be this fight or that you stand on something 24-7. But you're a pretty, like, a little guy, I would say. So how do you balance that in life of you do have an opinion about things? Again, big topics, small topics. But they don't all have to be verbalized or when do you verbalize them? Like, what does that look like?

Well, it also depends. What's happening in your every day? I've never seen more people, more worked up over things that will never affect them. Different, it doesn't matter who's in office. Usually your life changes very little, if at all. Things you see on the news you read worldwide. Of course, these news networks will create things and make you click on it, make you read it and get you worked up and get you worried.

But it's never going to affect your commute. It's never going to affect Sally that you know. It doesn't affect your every day. And so at the same time, are you actually engaging in conversation with the person next to you? Are you sitting and scrolling on your phone? Who are you going to give attention and time to? And so I find it funny that there's been this whole new shift, and maybe you've seen it too, where people are getting more landlines and the houses?

Yes, yes. We actually got one. Did you really? Did you really? Well, for our kids. Yeah. So that they can call us. How's that been?

It's been so great. And we got, they can call, we have grandparent numbers and like our siblings, like my husband and I siblings. Like what we grew up for? Yeah. And we laminated it and put it next to the landline. Did it do your heart good? It was so good. Oh, I got a call on the way here, literally.

And it said Cruz House and it was my six-year-old calling. That's awesome. But that's what I see. It's just a lot of it. is we get worked up over people will never meet. Yes. And things that will never affect us. Yes.

Rather than just focusing on. Yeah. Your day-to-day, right? And who's in there? So people that are in our day-to-day that we have a relationship with, what for you, when you see things arise, I don't know why I'm dealing with conflict so much. I just think it's an interesting topic. And someone does kind of snap back at you. And whether they belittle you, they do say something offensive.

You're so good at this. You have all these categories of things that can happen in life. What are we supposed to do in those conversations if we feel like someone is just coming at us? Right. And we start to feel ourselves get worked up. Like, how do you respond to someone? Yeah. Usually when somebody says something that's rude or belittling or disrespectful, it's very little to do about you.

I've seen one of the most powerful statements I've seen interacted with with somebody said, I don't know what's happening here, but it's not about me. Like that kind of thing is totally shift the dynamic. What do you do when somebody kind of belittles your or says something like that? What I teach is one, you want to take a breath. In other words, what you're doing is you're setting that equilibrium. You're setting the calm. You're allowing yourself to balance out because it's really you.

I can't control anything you say. Right. I can only make the decision for whether or not to control myself. Yeah. And so when I take a breath, I'm going to keep it calm. I say about five to seven seconds, almost enough to make it awkward, Rachel. And this is why because it allows in that silence for them to hear their words back. It doesn't work that way if you immediately have that rapid response or you yell

right back. Anything they said is now forgotten. You now have the spotlight. But if you never take that stand, if you never step on the podium, if you never step into that spotlight, it still remains on them. So if you have that seven seconds of just awkwardness, they hear it back. And so a lot of times you hear the, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that, or I take it back, or they adjust it in some way because they now, they don't like to show they're ugly. Sure. People don't like to feel like they're the villain. So, exactly.

So they, that was a little too far. They're not taking it. I'll pull it back. Second of all, what I like to teach is you make them say it again. In other words, you say, I need you to say that again. I need you to repeat that. And most of the time they won't because they realize all the fun is gone. They were wanting that hit a dopamine.

They were warning you to engage. You didn't. And now it doesn't really work the second time. It's not nearly as fun now. It's like, you know, if I had to get all my courage up to ask a girl out to a dance in junior high and you finally ask and she, you know, take out her headphone with, what did you say? You're like, I'm, never mind, I'm going to go check out this. Never mind.

And you leave because it's like, you already, you already shot. You shot. Yes. And so whenever you make them say it again, they typically will not. All right. More of my conversation with Jefferson in just a minute. But first, I want to tell you about one of our sponsors, delete me. So if you don't remove your personal data from the internet, it's basically like a billboard for everyone to see because your name, address, email, even your kids' names are out there on sketchy data broker websites.

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Right. Yeah, yeah. You see something. You're like, oh my gosh, I want this to change in you. And you can't. And so that surrender then automatically for me puts the energy back to myself, right? And so this idea of I can come. control what I can control.

Yes. And so in conversations and in relationship dynamics, what are the big things that we can control that you see, that you're like, remember these? Obviously, it's like what you say in that, but what are things that we can control? You can absolutely control your breath. Breath is the number one. I talk about a lot because it is what sets everything off. Like you said, when you feel like you get worked up and you start yelling, reason why,

is because when, if you say something that I don't like, I hear opinion, I don't like, what's the first thing we typically do. We go, what do we breathe in? Our body is going like, oh, I need air very quick, and we kind of shift in our seat, but then we don't let it out. We hold it. Interesting. And so we wait and we wait, and for now we're actually getting heated, just like a volcano, and where is that voice and that ear's going to go right there. That's why you're yelling. That's why they're like, why are you yelling? And you're like, I'm not. Yeah, it's because your body's like, I just need to, I need to put this air somewhere. So you can control your breath. Second of all is you can control, you really can, you can control the pace of the conversation.

If I talk really fast and you talk really fast and you go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Sorry my life. Yeah. Right, right, right. So what I teach, like I'm preparing clients for deposition. Okay. What I heart so many times is you control the pace. You can't make me say anything.

I don't want to say. You can't make me say anything on your time frame. I can choose when I say it, if I say it. if I say anything at all. And so when I slow down my words, when I lower my volume, that automatically makes you slow down your words, slow down your volume. And so those are probably the biggest components of, I can't make you do anything. I can control myself.

So if I know I control my breath, I control my pace, I control my tempo, that automatically is going to lower the temperature. Totally. It diffuses so much of the emotion. Yeah. Right? I'm like when you're just like in this like we're having to like one up each other. Exactly. And like it's like just chill. Instead of running in the conversation, choose to walk.

Yeah. So funny. I am a fast talker. And my friend Christy, one of my best friends, she's a vast talker. And we'll like do this app called Marco Polo. It's like a total millennial. Like if you're in your 40s, you're like probably know what it is. Yeah. But it's so funny because I can never two X her. Like I'll two X other people to speed up their conversation just to get through it. Yeah. Just to kind of get through it. But I always laugh because Christy and I both are like, we can't two-x each other because we automatically just talk so fast. Yeah, yeah.

But no, I think that's so good. And it just creates so much peace and margin in it. So with people that I talk to when it comes to money, conflict and marriages and all of that is like it is like the perfect little box that always gets shipped out. Because money fights, it's such a big thing. It's the worst. Yeah, it does. And it points so much to our vulnerability, I think. and when couples are sitting down the talk,

one of the biggest questions I get is I feel like they're not hearing me. I feel like, you know, I have an opinion, I'm trying to say it, but they don't listen or they don't want to be engaged in it. But when you have conflict, especially in a marriage, around a specific topic,

so we can use money as an example, but I'm sure parenting, religion, sex, all of it, right? How is it best for someone to approach their spouse? Yeah. In a conversation that they know this topic can be, Either it's not been well received in the past and or maybe they get defensive in it. How can they continue to bring it forth?

Because they want a good marriage. They want this topic to be resolved. What would you say to them? Right. So let me frame it a certain way. Blanket, any argument that I know you typically don't like. If I were to say, like for me it's heights, for my wife at snakes, there's certain things we just hate. Yeah.

Right. If I were to say, hey, you want to talk about, if you were to ask. me, hey, do you want to talk about heights? I'd say no. Immediately no. There's certain things that you know about the other person that for them, it's an immediate hard pass, immediate no. Whatever that is, you can apply that just like you said, money, whatever it is.

Right, right. So we naturally want to say no to certain things. If you know that the other person that you're talking to is an automatic no on a subject, let's say it's money, then what we're going to do is we're going to tweak the question to get the no. This is a technique from a very good friend of mine His name's Chris Voss He's fantastic

And we've become very good friends FBI negotiators So what you do is Instead of trying to get to a yes You're trying to get to a no For example If I were to ask you Is now a good time to talk

What do I need to be able to talk to you? I need you to say yes Right That's a little bit harder Most people don't want to say yes They want to say no But if I were to say, is now a bad time to talk? What am I getting to get what I want?

You to say no. Interesting. Way easier for you to say no. Interesting. And so what you start with is the negative. Okay. So if I have a very important topic that I want you to say no to, to get what I'm wanting, where I'm wanting to go. Yeah, moving on, yeah.

Then I'm going to say, I'm going to either start with, is it unreasonable? Are you against or are you opposed? Like this. Instead of, hey, can we talk about money right now? What do most people want to say? No. No, but if I say, are you against us talking about money for next week? Most people say no.

Are you opposed to talking about our kids' program, whatever? Are you, is it unreasonable for us to talk about the budget for next week? So interesting. And so whenever that happens, our gut is always to say no. And so if, like, for example, if I need to calm you down in an argument and we're yelling, if I say, is it unreasonable for us to talk in normal volume? Yeah? No, who's going to go, yes, that's unreasonable. It's unbelievable.

Can't believe you to even know. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Are you against us talking at a normal pace right now? Are you opposed to us taking a step back? So fun. Who's going to say, yes, I'm opposed. We've got to be terrible to each other.

Right, right. They're going to say no. Yeah. Which means it's going to calm down. Yes. Just to fuse it. So interesting. And it's a little mental gymnastics too.

Very much. Because people don't use that. It's an advanced move, we'll say. But I know you have advanced listeners. That's right. You have advanced listeners. You guys know. Oh, so great.

Well, Jefferson, thank you so much. Thank you for stopping by. And I am so excited about your book, the next conversation. And it came out a few months ago. Yeah, three months ago. But you guys, again, I mentioned it earlier. But I see it everywhere. I see it everywhere.

So congratulations. And where can everyone find you. I make it easy. You can go to jeffersonfisher.com. I have all my links there as well as social media. You can type in Jefferson Fisher. I'm all of them. I really like Instagram, but that's where it is.

So great. Great to see you, Rachel again. All right, you guys, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Now, there's a lot more to be said about relationships and money. So make sure to check out my episode. Do this now to avoid money problems in your marriage later. And you can click here if you're watching or I'll put a link down below if you're listening on podcast. All right, you guys, remember to take control of your money and create a life you love.

Thank you.