The Rachel Cruze Show - How to Save More and Spend Less—The Psychology of Money

Episode Date: September 14, 2020

Control starts with clarity. That's why you need to understand the psychology of money if you really want to save more and spend less. In this episode, I’m talking to psychologist and author Marcus Buckingham about how psychology, fear and our own brains impact our money decisions.   Resources:   Tuft & Needle: https://bit.ly/3cwWAy1 Zander Insurance Connect with Marcus Buckingham Get my new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money   Sponsors pay the producer of this show, The Lampo Group, LLC, advertising fees for mentioning their services or products during programming. Advertising fees are not based upon or otherwise tied to any product sale or business transacted between any consumer or sponsor. The following sponsors have paid for the programming you are viewing: — Zander Insurance — Tuft & Needle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

change your relationship to fear, and you'll change your relationship to money. Psychologist Marcus Buckingham is here. Don't fight fear and say it's bad. Instead, use its narrowing function. Money is a tool to help you create a life that you love. So use it as that tool. Don't use it as the means to the end. In a sense, you're using the narrowing power of fear to reveal you. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Rachel Crews Show podcast. So glad that you're here. And I'm really excited about today's episode because this topic is really near and dear to my heart. I've been wanting to share this for a while, so I cannot wait to share it with you today.

And that is the psychology of money. So how we behave with money is so important. So in order to be successful with money, it's not about your IQ, it's not about how smart you are. It doesn't matter if you got straight A's in high school. It doesn't matter any of that, you guys, or if you're good at math, whatever it is. Honestly, to win with money, you have to change your behavior. behavior. That is so, so crucial. And to be able to change your behavior, you need to know why you're behaving the way you are. So you can say, oh, wow, this is why I'm spending money here. Or, wow,

that's why I feel like I'm kind of hoarding money and have this closed fist mentality because I'm so scared to death that something's going to happen and I have to know I'm okay. You have to understand why you're behaving the way you're behaving in order to change those behaviors. And during that process, what is so important is when you start to discover why you are behaving the way you are with money, you're going to start to discover more about you. And the more you discover about you, the more that it's going to enlighten your relationships in life. So if you're married, you're going to learn more about your spouse. You're going to learn more about your parents. You're going to learn more about your friends. You're going to learn so much more about the people around

you and actually have empathy because you're starting to understand yourself. And when you start to understand yourself, that gives you the tools to start to understand others in your life. So all this does relate back to money, but we're going a little deeper here because, again, on this podcast, We talk so much about the how. We talk about how to get out of debt, how to budget, how to invest, how to refinance your house from a 30 year to a 15 year. Like a lot of that stuff is on this podcast, which is so good because that's the tools you need to go and change your behavior. But starting at the beginning and starting to understand your behavior is so, so crucial. So that why behind why you handle money the way you do is, again, is so, so important.

All right, today on this podcast, I'm going to be talking to psychologist Marcus Buckingham about the psychology of money. Then I'm going to answer a question from the Facebook community about how you to handle your money during stressful times. And then I'm also going to talk about the main drivers for why people spend money the way they do and a three-step plan dealing with it. Now, before you listen to my name, Marcus, this conversation, I just want to call out. Thank you, Corona, for all the wonderful technology that you have brought up for us. But this conversation is done on a Zoom call. So the audio is going to feel a little different than the rest of the podcast. but the content, it was too good not to share with you guys.

So take a listen to the conversation I had with Marcus on The Psychology of Money. Well, hey, you guys, I am so excited about today's episode because my guest today is one of people I love to talk to. I love to read. I love to listen to. Marcus Buckingham is here. He is a researcher and New York Times bestselling author and founder of Strengths Revolution. So Marcus, thanks for being here.

It's my pleasure. Well, we chatted a little bit on the phone. I guess almost a year ago for my new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money, and I kind of picked your brain around psychology and the way we view money, everything from our childhood to our fears to our dreams, all of it. So I'm just kind of curious from you on a high level.

When you're in the world of psychology and when you're thinking of the way people function and the way they act, how has money played a role in people's lives in a positive way in our world today, in our culture? Well, obviously, it's a way to enable our dreams, isn't it? We all want to project into the future. That's part of the human condition.

It's probably what makes us different from the animals, is that we can project into the future and find meaning in that future. And we feel, in question, we better, healthier, more positive well-being, when we feel like we have some ability to control that future and actually create out of that future the dreams and the hoax and so forth that we want. Money's a part of that. We have to be able to understand, though, what role it plays. as a means to an end rather than an end in itself, as you well know.

Having piles and piles and growing piles of money and some sort of stockpile isn't really going to give your life any more meaning or purpose at all. We know the meaning comes from projections into a better future. And when we can do that through relationships, through our families, through the dreams we have for them, through our achievements and the dreams we have for those things we want to achieve, our lives have much more faultness to them.

And of course, money is a means to that end. When it slips over into something else, then we're into a whole other different ball of wax. But if we can see it as part of our arsenal, part of our tool set for creating a better future, it's incredibly psychologically healthy. Yeah, I love that. That's exactly what we talk about this show all the time

is that money is a tool to help you create a life that you love. So use it as that tool. Don't use it as the God that you're sitting there to worship. And, yeah, the means to the end. Because we do live in a culture, you know, and I even watch shows, you know, on Netflix or TV or something, and I'll just see these people, and you can tell they are just chasing after success and getting that next paycheck and money, money, money, money, and you

see their lives develop. And again, I'm thinking TV specifically, but I know real life and walking with people, and I'm like, man, it can negatively impact you in so many ways when that becomes the means to the end. So what have you seen with people psychologically, like the loss of relationships, maybe the loss of drive or dreams, when money negatively impacts them because they are so obsessed thinking that if they could just have X amount of money, that they'll be okay? Well, it's funny, there's an American musician called Grace Slick, who is a musician, but also I said something incredibly smart about wealth and money, saying that no matter how comfortable your bed is, sooner or a lady, you have to get out of it.

and so money enables you to have a comfy bed but if all you do is admire the bed you're going to have an incredibly stationary life and life for us for humans healthy life is motion we are moving through life we are taking the things that we have that we love and then we are expressing them through contribution through the relationships that we have and what we want to build from those relationships. And all of that is you've got to get out of bed to keep moving to do that. And when you do that, life gives it to you back, doesn't it? You express love, it comes back, it invigorates you. You express it again, it invigorates you.

It's like love and contribution are this infinite loop. and when you realize that it's an infinite loop and that money can be a part of the way in which you keep motion happening, which implies risk, which implies investment, it implies taking your talents and actually putting them into the world,

both meanings of the word, talent in that sense. If we don't, it's not neutral, Rachel. It's love unexpressed, contribution, will burn you up from the inside out and you'll become frustrated. You'll become impatient. You'll become quick to anger. You'll walk around.

We've all had that feeling. You start walking around and you're like you're in a brain fog. And you can't quite remember where your creativity went, where your quick-wittedness went. And where it went was your loves, your contribution to words unexpressed. You're sitting there guarding your wealth. guarding your money. You're not moving if you don't. Put something in the world, get a reaction. Put another thing in the world. Get a reaction. That's what healthy life and living is. Yeah, because it's almost like this like beacon, a mechanism, a living mechanism, right?

You're just, you're moving versus just that hoarding mentality that some people have, whether it is their talents, whether it is their expression of emotion towards someone else or their money. Yeah, you don't just sit still. It's like a treadmill. You're going to end up going backwards. If you're not moving forward, that's such a good point. Now, as I've been focusing on people and why they handle money the way they do, their childhood has a massive part of that. So kind of talk to me about not even just money specific, but just in general, how you find people's childhood and the way they were brought up affects them today.

We do place a lot of emphasis on biography. And yet we also have, do you have brothers and sisters? Yes, older sister, younger brother. Okay. Are you different from them? Yes. I have an elder brother, a younger sister. I'm in the middle, too. So we are both the perfect middle child. I was going to say, middle children are the best.

We are a bad. Glad you are, too. As so defined by two middle children. Of course. Of course. We're credible. It's one of those funny things, isn't there, I ratio, where you look at your brother and your sister and you go, wow, I am really different from them in regards to my abilities, my talents, my passions, but also in terms of my success, the way which I move through life.

So one part of how we are in the world is clearly not actually a function of how you're raised. It's a function of your birthright. It's like you come into the world with a really unique combination of synapses, of chromosomes. you've got the same mom and dad, but you're really different than your brother, you're really different than your sister. And it's almost like, can I be like my sister? If I really wanted to be like my sister,

could I become like my sister? You're like, well, in some respects, you could admire certain parts of, but you're not going to become her. She's a weird, lovely, sorry, lovely, but weird combination of talents and strengths and weaknesses. And so to some extent, the way in which you are brought up doesn't affect that

because both of your siblings grew up in the same socioeconomic, and genetic environment. And yet, clearly the way in which your parents understand fear and risk, I think it's those two things, how do they talk, what are they frightened of? And then how does that affect the way

that they risk with themselves? So yes, you're bringing in your own genetic inheritance, but then you're looking, you're looking at mom and dad and going, what are you frightened of? And by the way, fear is a funny thing, right? Because we often go through life and people say, well, what would you do if you weren't afraid?

As though we should banish fear. Or some say, Machiavelli said this. I think Eckart Tolly said this, Marianne Williamson said this, that the opposite of love is fear. And so it's like, whoa, we should fight our fears and we should banish our fears or face our fears. But in fact, if you look at fear, fear's an interesting thing because if you listen to your fear,

If you let them in, don't fight them, don't banish them. Let them in. Fear is a really good sign to what you love. What you're frightened of is a sign to what you love. If I'm frightened of getting a difficult call from my brother about his health, it's because I love him. If I'm frightened of, maybe you sat down and you were frightened of writing your book, well, that's because you really, really want that book to be super helpful.

And so your fear isn't what causes all the problems in your life. It's what the fear changes into when you banish it. So the relationship, if you're frightened of somebody cheating on you, it turns into possessiveness. And the possessiveness is what harms the relationship. So in terms of my mom and dad, they weren't frightened of money. They let whatever they were frightened of, whether it was how happy we were as kids

or whether or not the business that my dad started would work, fear was, in a sense, part of the tool set that they had to go, oh, well, because I'm a little frightened at that, it means I will risk more, actually, because fear and love are kind of linked. When there's, you know, it's funny. You said to someone, well, what would you do if you weren't afraid? Well, wait a minute, if you aren't afraid, there's no love.

Yeah. You aren't fright. The path of fear is the path of love. So, with my mom and dad, certainly, they were frightened of some things. And because they were frightened of it, they went, you know what, we're going to bloody well double down on it. And I've got a bunch of different examples of that.

in terms of us as kids. But for them, it was like, don't be frightened of money. Don't be frightened of fear. Fear shows you what you love, and therefore you actually risk more in those parts of your life where you feel that twinge of fear. Now, you're not stupid about it, but you use the psychology of your fear to guide

where actually most of your passions lie. And then from that, you go, okay, then I'm not going to trip. So for me, I'm not going to trip myself up. My fears aren't bad. I'm not a danger to myself. Things I'm frightened of, go invest. Because the only person you're betting on here, Marcus, is yourself. And that's what, certainly for me, that's what I took from my mom and dad's own personal

relationship to their own fears. All right. One of my favorite packages to ever show up on my door is my tuft and needle mattress. I've got a couple now. And seriously, I love this mattress. You guys know exactly how. is when you're juggling the demands of mom and wife and work and friend and so many other things good sleep is a must and i've never slept better tough to needle is the best rated mattress on

amazon with over 100 000 five-star reviews so try it out you can get a mattress starting as low as three 99 plus it ships free and you can keep it up to 100 nights risk-free so if i'm wrong just send it back go to tn dot com to get started that's It's t.com. Well, I love the way you speak on that because I was even talking to Dr. Chip Dodd, and he talked about how fear just actually shows you what you need, too, that you're in need. What is it that you need in that moment to help you overcome that? And so many people are so scared to even have that need.

So fear becomes negative, and it's not. So I love even that perspective you bring around because I think it's so smart. Because, again, I feel like we grow up and we hear these terms, yeah, just don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I'm like, no, fear's a part of life. How you handle it is, and the outcome of that is what's in. and what's crucial. So that's so good. It's part of what your book can help with because one of the ways in which fear manifests is in the realm of money. And what you're really trying to do, I think,

in your work is say to be healthy in life, you can't ignore money. Money is a very important part of the way in which you live out your life. The fear that you feel is a relationship that should be examined. And to some extent, to some extent, what you're saying in your work is change. your relationship to fear and you'll change your relationship to money. That is a really interesting thread to pull on. How do we change our relationship to fear so that we don't banish it or fight it? We let it in so that it can help us channel to what we love or as doctors, we're saying, channel to what you need.

But fear is like pain for the psyche, right? Pain for the body isn't bad. In fact, if you have analgesia and you can't feel pain, that is a really dangerous physiological condition. Pain shows us where we need to focus our attention so we can be healthy. Fear is pain for the psyche. So it helps you know what you need, what you love, where you can risk. Who is the true essence of you?

Like, the fears of your brother and sister are different than your fears. And your fears will change and morph through the course of your life with kids and so forth. But your fears are yours. And so if you change your relationship to those fears, bring them in, then you will change the relationship to money because it won't be something that can harm you. It's not a villain. It's part of the, you know, it's part of the team who's going to help you manifest the biggest and most beautiful version of you. Absolutely. And almost money is like this magnifying glass into other areas of your life.

So people that think that there's a fear of money, that may be true, but what is deeper than that, right? Like, it's not just the money fear. It's fear of so much else. Rejection, whatever it is, it's underneath that. And getting to that part is so, so crucial to be able to unpack that. And so fear for you, I know we kind of had this discussion when we were talking about a year ago. But talk about what fear even does, like, biologically, to us as humans, to the brain, like all that. I think it's just so fascinating because when we let this overcome us, specifically in the realm of money, too,

it can be paralyzing. And so that fear, fear in so many different aspects of life, obviously it pops up. But talk about a little bit more like the psychology, the biology of fear. Well, the point of fear is a very useful emotion fear. Fear is designed to help us respond to threat, right? So if we start to feel frightened, there are certain physiological changes that occur in our body. Our whole body fills with cortisol, our, blood pressure rises, a heartbeats faster.

And what's happening to us is we are getting primed for action. And what fear does, in terms of the way that the brain functions, is it is a narrowing function. That's what fear is for. It pushes everything else aside and just goes, that's a bandit that's jumped out from behind that tree, or it's a bear. Anyway, I better focus, push everything out,

and focus on do I run for my life or do I stand and fight? And so everything, it's a narrowing function. And from a biological standpoint, an evolutionary biological standpoint, it's really useful. Those people who feel no fear, they often didn't live long enough to pass on their genes and being able to make those kind of instantaneous decisions very, very useful. The problem with fear, of course, if you let it run like that,

is that you can't create in fear. to be creative, to be generous, to be kind-hearted, to be innovative, to be collaborative, all the things that are part of super healthy living, either at work or at home or in society, all of those things don't work well when you're narrowed. They work well. In fact, there's a lot of research that suggests this is what positive emotions are for. Positive emotions are for broadening and building. So you broaden, you open, you let in, and the bringing in of new input, new people, new context, new ideas, turns into the raw material that you need to make new things, to be creative, be collaborative, be productive.

So in a sense, in this sense, fear is the antithesis of productive and healthy living if you just let it do its thing. And its thing is narrow. focus and get narrow. Not that that's bad. You can't go, don't ever fear, because that's silly. But what you can do is what we were just saying before, which is go in,

but fear does that to you. And in terms of money, of course, what that means is if you're just going, ah, and you're just focus on what that money lack thereof or the fact that you've untended it in some way, you're not really sure what's going on, that's a threat and it narrows your focus, which, I don't know, on some occasions, that might be quite good to pick up the phone and call the bank person and go,

okay, that's fine. Having said that, if that's the way you go through life, you can't be creative, be collaborative, being innovative, all the stuff that relates to you actually creating a dent in the world that's valuable. So it's like this juxtaposition of don't fight fear and say it's bad. Instead, if you're going to use it, use its narrowing function to help you figure out what you love and what you're passionate about, what you care deeply about. Use it to do something really useful.

Yeah. It just lead you to the center of you, which it can do. So good. I know when you said that, again, it's been about a year, but when you said that on the phone, I was like, oh my gosh,

that is so brilliant because it is. And when you think about it in that way, you're like, yeah, the narrowing focus, yeah, it allows me to be super motivated and I can fix it right there, right? Do what I can to control this aspect and get it done. But if you live your entire life like that, you've narrowed it so deep.

Yeah, your creativity, your generosity, everything just isn't available because literally your brain won't even allow you to do it because of that narrowing because of the fear. But what it does well at in terms of narrowing is it will narrow you to what you love. It will narrow your focus to what you care deeply about. That's a useful thing to know because the world that we live in is so busy. Look at your life, right? You've got work that you're doing. You've got all sorts of relationships that are outside of your...

your house that are really important. You've got three kids that will take it. Your life is a transactional life. Just stuff hits you all the time. So in the context of that, what use is fear? Well, actually, fear can help you stop the wind whipping by your ears all the time and go, wait a minute. What is super important to me? One good place to look would be the things I'm frightened of. Okay, let's look there. And so in a sense, you're using the narrowing power of fear. to reveal you. Yeah. That's good.

So good. And to prioritize your life, right? So you don't look back in 20 years and be like, oh my gosh. So yeah, using that fear as a tool to prioritize what's important. That's, yeah, that's good. That's so, so good. Well, Marcus, thank you so much for coming on. And just chatting about all of this thing.

It's fascinating. I love what you have to say. I love the work that you do. So where can people find you? Well, Marcusbukyam.com is a pretty good place. Marcuspangan.com. And then I'm on Instagram. I like Instagram better than anything else.

It's just faster and easier. The only other place, by the way, I run this Research Institute, the ADP Research Institute. So we do these big global studies of the world of work, psychology, resilience, strengths, engagement. So if anybody who's listening is into data,

some might not be. If you are, go to ADPRI.org and you can see some stuff there that's really rigorous global studies of the world of work. So good. So great.

Well, Marcus, thanks again. and I so appreciate your time. My pleasure, guys. Thanks. One of my favorite things about my job is getting to talk to people smarter than me. So honestly, when I get to, like, sit down with someone like that and just hear from them, it's so, so good. So I'm glad you guys got to hear that conversation because it's just so, so fascinating. And one of the things we focused on in that interview, which I was so glad we did, was the fear around money.

Because fear, it is such an important thing to realize, not just in life, but also with your money. I mean, one of my greatest fears, truth be told, I freaking hate storms. I hate storm so much. Even as I'm recording this podcast, tomorrow they're saying that there's going to possibly be some tornadoes in the Nashville area because of a hurricane that's making landfall. And I am just not happy about it. I have like a physical reaction. I freaking hate storms so much.

And so I've realized, though, dealing with fear that you have to focus on facts, right? When you have all the emotion wrapped up, sometimes you don't have the facts of life. and when you actually have facts, that is what's so, so crucial. So when it comes to fear in any part of your life, but specifically with your money, there are three things that you can do to deal with it. Name it, focus on the truth, and reach out for help. So name it, what is it? What is the thing that is bothering you that is making you fearful towards money?

Is it that you can get paralyzed if you think, oh, wow, I mean, what if, you know, we lose a job and we're not going to have enough money to pay the bills next month? What if it is, what if one of my kids gets sick? Are we going to be able to afford it? What if it's, we want to move and actually like kind of live in our dream city, but we're just so scared that we're not going to afford it and we don't know what to do. Like, whatever that thing is, what is that fear? Or I'm going to end up like my parents one day. Whatever that fear is, you have to be able to name it.

Clearly state, this is what is absolutely freaking me out right now when it comes to money. Name it. And then you need to focus on the truth. gather facts. It's amazing how much our emotions can take over. But when you can focus on, okay, here's the truth of the situation. The truth is we actually do have money to relocate and we're going to be okay because we have no debt and an emergency fund. We can actually make this jump and it's going to be okay. Focus on the truth. Look to see, okay, yeah, if we do lose a paycheck, we legitimately will not be able to pay our bills. So we're going to have to do something different.

We're going to have to work a plan where we get out of debt and we don't have these bills and we're going to get an emergency fund in place. We're going to have to do something about it. But figure out that truth. Naming that truth is so, so crucial. And then reach out for help. That is one thing fear does. The healthy fear says, hey, I need help.

I'm in need. So raise your hands and say, hey, I need help. That is not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to go and talk to someone. It's not a bad thing to say, you know what? I'm actually going to read a book about money because I don't know what I'm doing, and I need someone to help guide me in this.

That's okay. Help is not a bad thing. It does not show weakness. It actually shows a lot of strength and a lot of wisdom because guess what? We all need help in life. None of us have this superpower where we're going to be okay in every area of our life. No, there are things that we are not good at in life and we need help. And for you, it might be with money. You might say, wow, I am so bad at overspending. I need help. I need more accountability in my life. I need someone to come around me. Like whatever it is, you guys, reach out for help. So again, when that fear rises up in you, name it. You have to be able to say, this is exactly what I'm afraid of, and then focus on the truth.

Find the truth of the situation, because that's going to take the emotion out, and it's going to give you facts. And then lastly, again, reach out for help. Find someone in your life or a program or a book. I don't care what it is. Find the help that you need to get you through that fear and actually give you something tangible to work with.

Now, something a lot of people are worried about is what would happen to my family, if something happened to me. This is something that I hear a lot of people say, and you know what? Life insurance, term life insurance, is going to be the best thing possible to help make sure that your family is taking care of

if something happens to you. Winston and I, we have term life insurance. We actually just upped it a little while ago because we had another kid and we realized, hmm, it'd be nice, or I did. I was like, listen, it'd be nice just to have a little bit more. Because it just gives you that security, kind of that cushion to know

if something were happening to Winston, me and the kids were going to be okay. If something were to happen to me, Winston and the kids are going to be okay. Term life insurance, you guys, it's so freaking inexpensive. Like, I still am blown away when I get the prices. I'm like, what? It's crazy. And so what you want to do is use Xander insurance because what they do is they shop so many companies and they give you the best rate possible. Where, again, some companies, they just give you one rate because it's their rate. No, Zander shops them all. So make sure you get 10 to 12 times your annual income. And that's it. It's all you got to do. It's so easy. So just go to zander.com, put in your information. I promise. It is so simple. And it will give you such peace of mind to know

that, hey, my family's going to be taken care of no matter what on the financial side. All right. Next is a question that I got from my Facebook community. It's so fine on social that I get to see so many questions come up. And this podcast, I get to answer some of them. So this is from Sarah. And she asks, me and my husband, we're saving $60 a month with both of us working full-time, less working overtime. My husband recently had a stroke on June 22nd, which made him unable to read and swallow. How do we make sure that our bank account doesn't go into the negative? Do we pay our bills until we end up on the street? Do we invest it? Oh my gosh, Sarah. Oh, this is so, that's so heartbreaking. I'm so, I'm so sorry. Medical stuff, it's just, it's absolutely, it's traumatizing.

Like, it's terrible. So for you guys, what I would focus on, number one, is did you have insurance, does he have disability insurance? Like, where are you on the insurance side? Is there anything can you take out disability and have any income coming in that way? Because if he's unable to read, if he's unable to swallow, he's probably not going to be able to work, is what I'm assuming. I don't know if there's anything creative y'all can do to get him to work, but I, I mean, that's going to be a tough road. And especially since it just happened recently, take a breather. Like just, you know, I wouldn't push anything right now. But on your side, yeah, you guys need to focus on your four walls. Food, shelter, utilities, transportation.

And since it's a completely different shift, really, in your life, you guys may want to look at, hey, look at those four walls and say, is there anything that we can change here that's not going to completely uproot us and completely, you know, shake us to our core? But look at your house or look at your living situation and say, okay, is there anything we can do that maybe we can go live in a cheaper part of town? Is there anything to kind of self in that blow financially of what you can do? Because it's really tough, yeah, if he's not going to be able to work. and it's heartbreaking. So again, look into the insurance. Number two, focus on those four walls, and then number three is you have to budget diligently. So those four walls go up top and then everything else and cut anything you can at this point. You are in complete survival mode. And the fact that you guys were both working full-time and overtime and only saving $60 a month, that makes me a little

nervous. I don't know where your lifestyle is at that point. Like, is there, I don't know if there's a better job that maybe you can get out there. Maybe it's not your dream job. It's not even in the field that you love, but for a time being to bring in that cash and bring in that money and do what you can do. But again, that insurance is going to be huge. Covering your essentials is going to be next and then budgeting out everything else. And, you know, times like this too, when big things happen in life, sadly more on the negative side, I would just pause and try not to make any major, major financial decisions. Again, if the housing thing is up there and you're like, hey, we got to just cut the rent or we've got to cut the mortgage and do something lower just to survive,

then do that because you're in stressful mode right now. But anything else, I would just pause and not make big financial decisions until you guys kind of get this groove going of what you need. But the deal is there is income that has to be brought in for you guys to survive. And so whether that's through disability or through work, yeah, to make it work, it's going to be crucial. But also, Sarah, the fact that you're asking these questions and you're aware gives me such hope. I mean, I've heard so many stories from people with all different situations that seem

absolutely dire. And it's like, how are they going to do it? And they do. Like, and it's going to be up to you guys. It's going to be up to you to say, you know what, we're going to, we're going to completely charge forward and actually end up better than where we were. Like, there's a mindset shift that you have to have to say, you know what, I'm not going to live in the hopelessness. I'm going to live in the hopefulness and have the reality of what's going on, but actually trege forward through this extremely, extremely painful time, but actually become stronger on the other end. And I really believe that you can, Sarah, because I've heard so many stories like this that, man, you think, how are they going to do it? And they do it. And it's amazing. But they have to believe, and you have to have hope that

it can change. Well, you guys, thank you so much for listening to this episode. Thanks again to Marcus for coming on and sharing all of his wisdom. And thanks to you guys for submitting questions on social media. We are looking out for those and love to answer them here on this podcast. And my book, Know Your yourself know your money it's on pre-order so you can get a copy and get the free audio book, e-book, and a free video lesson for me at rachelcruise.com if you order before January 5th. And if you've not subscribed to this podcast, make sure you do that, hit that subscribe button. And if the spirit leads, you can leave a review. All right, as always, make sure you take control of your money and create a life you love.

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