The Ramsey Show - Big Incomes Don’t Cancel Out Bad Decisions

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Dave Ramsey and George Kamel answer your questions and discuss: "We're $500K in debt, can we afford new cars?” "My girlfriend will lose her pension if we get married" "How do we pay off $500k of medical debt?" "Is there a limited amount of wealth available?" "My husband keeps refusing to combine finances," "Should we usse our savings to pay off our student loans?" Living paycheck-to-paycheck on $600K a year. Next Steps: ✔️⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Help us make the show better. Please take this short survey.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📞 Have a question for the show? Call 888-825-5225 weekdays from 2–5 p.m. ET or⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠send us an email⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. 📈⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Are you on track with the Baby Steps? Get a free personalized plan.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🎟️ ⁠The Ramsey Show Live Tour: Get Your Tickets!⁠ 📚⁠Set and actually reach your goals with the NEW 2026 Ramsey Goal Planner! Hurry—they sell out every year!⁠ 🛡️ ⁠⁠⁠Get trusted insurance coverage that fits your budget.⁠ 💵⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Start your free budget today. Download the EveryDollar app!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Connect With Our Sponsors: Stop paying more and start shopping smarter at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALDI⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get 10% off your first month of⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ BetterHelp⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Boost Mobile⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to switch today! Learn more about⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Christian Healthcare Ministries⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get started today with⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Churchill Mortgage⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get 20% off when you join ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠DeleteMe⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Go to⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ FAIRWINDS Credit Union⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for an exclusive account bundle! Find top health insurance plans at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Health Trust Financial⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Use code RAMSEY to save 20% at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Mama Bear Legal Forms⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ NetSuite⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ today to learn more. For more information, go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠SimpliSafe⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Use promo code RAMSEY for 18% off at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Nokbox⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get started with ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YRefy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or call 844-2-RAMSEY. Visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Zander Insurance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for your free instant quote today!  Explore more from Ramsey Network: 💸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Ramsey Show Highlights⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🧠 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Dr. John Delony Show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🍸 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Smart Money Happy Hour⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💡 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Rachel Cruze Show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 💰 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠George Kamel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 🪑 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 📈 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠EntreLeadership⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brought to you by the Every Dollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. It's the Ramsey Show. We help people. Build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Camel, number one, bestselling author of the book Breaking Free from Broke, Ramsey Personality,

and, oh, various other things. He is co-host of the Smart Money Happy Hour, many other things around here. He's my co-host today. Open phones at AAA 8255-225. Katie is going to start us off in Akron, Ohio this hour. Hi, Katie. How are you? Hi, I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? Good. So my husband is a physician, so he's got a really good income, but he also has almost $500,000 in student loan debt. We've been married three years, so I kind of married into his debt. And as such, we're not sure if now is even an acceptable time to be considering buying a couple of new to us used cars. Right now, he works out of

of state and will for the foreseeable future. So he's gone 50% of the time, and I'm here with all the kids. Last week, two of our vehicles were broken down at the same time, so I had no transportation. So I was just, we're looking to spend maybe a total of $40,000 on a van and a sedan, and just don't know if we're still supposed to be driving clunkers because of that massive student loan debt. Are we attacking the massive student loan debt?

Um, probably not as fiercely as you would like, um, which has, uh, and not as seriously as I would like either. Um, because, because this is a second marriage for both of us, we've both had to kind of adjust our, um, financial views a little bit, a little give and take. Um, and so I'm more gung-ho than he is, but at the same time, we are still paying them off. Um, we've paid off 100,000 of them in the past, uh, two years. Yeah. What's he made? He makes $400,000 gross. So we're bringing home a little over $18,000 a month.

You should be bringing home more than that. Your taxes aren't that? It's about $19,000 after taxes and insurance. That's almost 50%. That's almost, you don't have a 50% tax or some kind of problems going on here. Is he investing through his retirement plan? Yes. But that's actually already been maxed out for the year.

So, yeah, I know. That's why you're taking home less as well. That's part of the equation. Yeah. Yeah. So if we pause investing, you could get back $20,000 in your patience. I mean, the question is not really cars, because based on the way you guys are currently living, you're trying to wander out of debt while continuing to do investing.

And while you have but do this, you make $400,000, you only paid off $100,000 in two years. I mean, and it's just awful. So, you know, there's no intensity at all inside. We do also have a lot of expenses that others may not have. With him working out of state, he has to maintain an apartment out of state. We have three, well, I have three step kids that live in a different state that he has to go out there to visit on a monthly basis. And so hotel rooms and travel for that.

Yeah, but truthfully, Katie, you told us you guys are not intent. you guys are not working our system okay i'm not mad at you but so i don't know why whether you buy a car matters i mean if you want to go buy a car by a car if you're going to keep working it this way but you're going to struggle as long as you continue to do this and so um you know it's um you guys are going to have to decide if you're going to lean into this debt thing and get rid of the debt if you're going to lean into it then stop the 401k and buy have one $10,000 car and get rid of these two pieces of crap that keep breaking down. But, you know, as long as y'all keep acting like people that make $400,000,

you're going to keep spending what you're spending, and you're going to justify it and rationalize it, and you're going to stay in debt. You're not going to get out. So, you know, it doesn't matter. You know, the $10,000 car doesn't matter. But what it does do, the question, what the question does do in your house, not with us, it doesn't affect us, but between the two of you, it causes you to say, okay, are we going to do this or not?

Are we going to keep limping through this? Because at this current rate, you're going to be in debt for 10 years. And that's just, you know, that's not a plan, you know, it's not a good plan. But, and if you're going to do that, then, yeah, sure, buy a car. I mean, it's not, buy, all the cars you want to buy, I don't care. I mean, it's not, it, because it doesn't, what you're doing is you're half but doing everything and that's just not going to the everything we teach anyway so um yeah you guys need to have a discussion about this okay we need to sit down and make the money we have behave better

and we need to behave better and um we need to get in very very intense because you are a broke doctor's wife you're married to a doctor who is broke broke poor broke poor poor poor people making 400 grand. That's what you are. So you guys got to decide if that's how you want to live or not. I don't want to live like that. Yeah, part of this is getting a line going, all right, how much can and should we be throwing at this debt? We want to be done in three years. Okay, that's 170 grand a year. We've got to be throwing at this. What does that take per month? Once you make it mathematical. And what must be true? Yeah, we got to cut some lifestyle. What has to be true of our lifestyle? What has to be true of the travel apartment? What has to be true about

this and true about that and you know and what's the the way we can for a short period of time what can we sacrifice and that's what you do and regardless of you make 40 grand or you make 400 grand maybe you can repair the cars for 5 grand instead of spending 40 and that buys you a few years who knows yeah but i think i think what this highlights is not a car issue what it highlights is the issue that you guys are the plan you're working you know is not not working not well and you're not on the same page. And you guys probably need to talk about what the flip we're going to do going forward. I mean, then that will answer your car question.

And do you even have $40,000 in cash to pay for this? Yeah, probably not. Open phones at AAA 825-5-225. Jump in. We'll talk about your life and your money. So, George, one of the things that happens, and it happened with me, I didn't have a choice because I went broke, but you can choose to take away all your options. You can choose to take away all your rationalizations.

You can choose to do this. And you have to kind of run a mental scenario. I always tell people like, okay, you have no money. What if you had to have $10,000 by Christmas to save the life of your child with a medical procedure. And you couldn't borrow it. What would you do? You'd find it. You'd find it. And all of a sudden all this, oh, I have to do this and I have to do that. And bull crap, we're getting $10,000. If you make it a priority, it happens. It's like it's life or death. Whatever you focus on, you'll see the result. All of a sudden, all this stuff we think we need when you are trying to

save the life, you know, when you put it in that kind of a mental gymnastic routine, then you know, then you're forced into looking at your life realistically. Yeah. Because dead isn't life or death, but you kind of have to make it that well in order to get out. It's not. It's not. But if you say, you know, if you act like that's how important this is, until it becomes important, you're not going to do it. That's the thing. As long as there's something else. That's any goal in life.

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And speaking of what's next, download the CFO's guide to AI and Machine Learning at netseweet.com slash Ramsey. It's free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. George Camel, Ramsey Personality is my co-host. Open phones at AAA 825-5-2-2-25. David is in Kansas City. Hi, David. Welcome to the Ramsey show.

Hello. Hi, what's up? Well, I am a divorced man. I'm 69. I have a relationship with a widow who's 68. She's in another state. We're talking and we like to get together. But I'm trying to be a righteous, God be man. I don't want to just live together. I want to get married. But if I get married to her, then she will lose her pension from her deceased husband, which is quite substantial. so what I was thinking is just having having a church wedding doing everything the same except not filing for a state license so I just wanted your thoughts on that what is the nature of the pension I'm confused why she loses it if she remarries that sounds more like alamone than a pension no no it's her her husband was a police officer for the state of new jersey which they have very very generous pensions and so uh it's

between three and four thousand dollars a month and she would lose that if she remarries and what most people do in these situations is they just live together they don't even think about it but i can't do that it's a deal breaker for me i would i would want to have some kind of ceremonies trying to be a righteous man yeah i'm trying to do the right thing but uh it's and this woman has had been to a lot. She's lost her mother, her sister, and her husband within a span of three years. And she's been insecure most of her life. And she's finally had financial security. And so for me to come and say, hey, well, you know, we're going to get married. What is your, what is your net worth? Well, I'm a chiropractor. So I make about 90,000 a year. But I get some social security, too.

my net worth is uh not much uh 20 20 000 right now i don't have anything saved i lost everything a couple years ago through divorce yeah okay and how long have you been seeing this like uh just we've been talking for several months okay have you met her oh yeah okay yeah that's what you said talking i don't know if you're talking on the phone like long distance No, I saw her. I saw her last year. I saw her. We met and we talked. And she's an old years ago was a, was a girlfriend in high school. So I know her from back then. I know all about her from back then. Okay. All right. Well, it's a difficult one. I'm not going to argue with you there. I'm with you, though. There's no question I'm not living with someone I'm not married to. I can't do that as a person of faith, okay, as a Christian. My book tells me not to do that. I don't do what the things the book tells me not to do because they don't prosper me

and they're not good for the people in my life and people around me and so forth. So I just try to, even though it doesn't make sense, sometimes I just do what the book says. And so I'm not doing that. It's not like a Pharisee. It just worked good for me, you know, so I'm a follower. There's a lot of people that do do that. They just live together. Yeah, I know.

I know. They do. And it seems like it's okay, but you and I know that there's other issues. So then the only question, if you go to the church wedding and you don't file with the state is just it's not a no longer a theological or doctrinal or religious question it you've solved that the only question on the table is you are intentionally lying it's an integrity issue uh just to keep this in place and that that's a that's also a potential deal breaker i've got to work through that in my head if i'm in your shoes um i'm not saying you're doing that

but I'm you know this is basically a maneuver to manipulate and not tell these people you're married um and you are married and so that's deception you know there's no question about that and there's good reasons for it here but it is that who who gets back to who instituted marriage was marriage instituted by the government or was it instituted by the government or was it instituted by like no no it doesn't it doesn't you and I know when you go get married you're married okay and you know that the state of New Jersey did not want this pension going to her when she remarried, and you're not telling them is what you're doing. And so, you know, that, that, I've just got to work through that. I'm not accusing you of something bad here, but, um, but I, I, I can't get,

I'm 63, so you and I could be in the same boat someday. I'm not, but, uh, I'm not today, but I, I, I'm trying to relate and think through, um, uh, well, I'm not trying to game the, You know, the other thing is I would investigate if there are any things that you can file with the Pension Board for individual exceptions, like the particular nature of... I did hire an attorney. Yeah, I did hire an attorney. I looked into it and they said there's nothing much you can do. And it's just kind of crazy to me because the state is actually promoting, you know, a fornication lifestyle that's okay it's okay people they do with a lot of things i mean they

they do with a lot of things but they do with the tax code they do with a lot of other things so that's not that's not new that doesn't change your stance or my stance we have to do our thing regardless of what the stupid state does there's a lot of things that are legal that aren't right so well that's what i'm saying if i'm doing this right in my eyes before i'm going to have a ceremony okay then i mean i'm just talking it through with you you you you you you You're more than welcome to do whatever you want to do. I'm not saying you're a bad guy. I'm just talking it through with you.

If I'm in your shoes, I've got to work through the fact that I am intentionally deceiving the state. And is that okay? And I'll give you a parallel example in my life is that I hate so much so that just talking about it right now, my heart rate is changing. I hate the federal income tax. It is absolutely immoral, out of control, pitiful, the money. The money that I send to the federal government makes me want to throw up every time I think about it. I hate it. It's pitiful how bad they run this country.

And they keep milking me even more. Taking my money at the point of a gun. I hate it. But you know what? I pay 100% to the penny that I owe. I take every legal regulation and loophole they allow me to take, and I'm a student. of it, and I hire people with expensive checks that are students of it so that I can give them as little as possible with 100% of integrity. But I hate it. Did I mention that I hate it?

Did I bring that up? And so, you know, but it's not about them. It's about me. Am I doing the right thing? So if I'm in your shoes, I've got to get, I'm not going to accept your lawyer's answer. I'm going to get with this, get with these people. I'm going to talk to The governor, crap, call the governor, talk to him. I mean, talk to whoever runs the police commission in the state of New Jersey and say, look, this guy died on the job, and you're denying his widow the right to move forward with her life with this. It's ridiculous.

You're asking her to shack up at 69 years old, like she's some kind of 19-year-old that can't keep their pants on. This is ridiculous. And you guys need to give us an exception on this. I'm going to bust them. if I'm you. And I understand why they do it, by the way, but to keep somebody from,

keep the widows from being a target later with the juicy pension. But I'm not saying he's targeting her at all. If they get married, you know, he makes $90,000. That would effectively replace her income as long as they're married, but it still puts her at a precarious situation. She's not going to do that. She's just, she's been through hell and this money means a lot to her. Yeah.

And so I understand the predicament, and I'm not unsympathetic to it, but you asked. And so I've got to tell you, the way we answer questions on the show is what would we do if we woke up in your shoes, right? I mean, put your shoes on walking. I hope I'm not ever in those shoes. Those are difficult shoes. But the first thing I got to solve is for the doctrinal part, the faith issue. You've solved for that one. That one's done.

And then I'll fight the bureaucracy after that. Yeah. That's like a couple of kids getting married in their 20s or something, and they want to have a big, fabulous wedding. but they want to go ahead and get married. They want to go ahead and live together now. So they go to the church and they get married. And then six or eight months later, they have a wedding for all their friends. And that's okay because they're married.

That's, you know, financially, legally, spiritually all in line. It's in that kind of same bucket for me as far as that goes. But I don't care if you register it with a state. But I do care about deception in my life. I don't want to be the guy that's doing that. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, quick reality check. AI isn't just for sci-fi nerds and Silicon Valley tech bros anymore.

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Go get on a budget, lean into it, especially if you're married, do it for 90 days. And if you hate it, quit. But after, but what I've been doing this for 30 years. When I get people to do a budget for 30 days, they feel like they got a raise. It increases the quality and the depth of the communication in their marriage. They feel like they got traction towards their goals. They feel in control. Their anxiety goes down over money.

I mean, all because of a budget. Well, before you think there's like the boogeyman exists with your, money like where is it going and I don't want to look and then you just finally look and you go okay we can solve this problem now we actually looked at it well I mean like where's all our money going oh wait there it is it's going out to eat there you can't complain about feeling that way if you haven't actually done a budget try it worst thing can happen is you hate it because where you are sucks so you might as well change where you are it's the old political thing that's are you better off than you were four years ago try that with a budget are you better off than

you were 90 days ago when you had no clue what was happening with your money no you're still sitting there like a hamster and a wheel. Run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, get nowhere. Kim is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Kim. How are you? Hi, how are you? Better than I deserve.

How can we help? Yeah, so just my question is, my husband and I were missionaries, and we came back to the states to give birth and wound up having a medical emergency while we were out of state. So we had a state insurance, and we were visiting my husband. family. Well, I ended up giving birth to my son early, and he was in the NICU for a month. I was in the hospital two weeks leading up to that. And because you're out of state, even though we had emergency insurance from my coverage, it was still denied for everything.

And so right now we're facing somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 in medical debt. And we're in the snowball staging right now. Whoa, whoa, stop. Just stop a second. I got to catch back up. Yeah. Yeah. So you had, you had a baby that was in NICU, and you were a missionary overseas, but you came back to the states and you were under, you were under whose insurance, your husband's?

A state, just a normal state insurance. State. Yes. And because it was out of state, they wouldn't cover anything? Yeah. You know, we had the emergency insurance, so it should have been kept. What state is the insurance in? It was a Florida insurance.

Why did you not go to Florida to do the medical care? We were visiting my husband's family who lives in a different state. Oh, and there was a problem with the baby, and they took the baby and put it in NICU. Yeah. So it was an emergency, and you didn't have the option to go to Florida? Correct. I got you. Okay.

And Florida's state insurance does not have that. as a contingency for an emergency to save the life of a child? It does. Yeah, it does. For whatever reason, they're still denying all the coverage of it. We've appealed multiple times. Well, I think you need to get some professional representation then on that. Okay, yeah.

Because I'm not going to set up two missionary kids with a kid and NICU to take care of a half million dollars worth of medical. yeah because i'm guessing you're poorest church mice yeah i mean i never met rich missionaries okay yeah they don't they just hadn't run into them so you're not probably not sitting on a half million in your mutual fund i'm guessing no not at all right so i think you got to solve this by throwing this back onto the florida system and so what you need to do is you need to get in touch with your state senators and state representatives and with the governor's office in Florida and start hassling your politicians. Okay.

You remember the story where that Jesus told of the woman who would not be denied? She just kept knocking on the door, knocking on the door, knocking on the door, knocking on the door. Yeah, that's you. Yeah. because you don't have a half million dollars and you're not going to see a half million dollars anytime soon so you've got to solve this through uh political pressure and or legal pressure maybe an attorney um because that's that if they pick up their part what they're supposed to pick up

here it's going to change your whole life agreed yeah oh for sure for sure yeah have you talked to the administration at the hospital they don't even do yeah so they um they said that one Once the third, because I guess there's a rule with insurance companies that once you get three denials, it's like there's no possibility of getting it covered. So that they won't let us apply for the financial aid until we get that third denial from the insurance. Yeah, you're not going to get a third denial. You're going to get it covered. Yeah, exactly. You have to.

You have to. I've been really scared. Yeah, you have to. Yeah. I'm really scared to go through that third one. Don't worry about it. You don't have anything for them to take. Yeah.

So you're okay. Okay. They don't repo babies. so you're okay. How is your baby? How are they doing? He's doing amazing now. The Lord definitely healed him while he was in the NICU

and surprised all the doctors on how quickly he recovered. So are you going to be a little miracle? Are y'all out of the hospital or everything now? Is it all behind you? Yeah. Everything but the bill? Everything with the bill. Yeah.

So you're not at, are you in North Carolina still? Yeah, we're in North Carolina now. Just we're about to launch back out. to our country in a week that we serve in over in Southeast Asia. Okay, all right. You have a new hobby. Yeah. It's the state of Florida.

Okay. Really, I want you to become an expert on hassling politicians and insurance commissioners and getting an attorney. Are you serving with a missionary organization? Yes, we are. Okay. talk to the senior people in that organization and see if they have anybody on staff that does legal work and see if you can get an on-staff attorney to start hassling Florida okay yeah I know we don't

have that so well it would definitely be all on us let me try one more time okay you're serving with a missionary organization how many people serve in the mission field with this organization um around 300 okay probably some of the host churches the support churches then have an attorney who's hanging around that church goes to church there who would love to help a young missionary couple get rid of a half million dollar problem yeah that's definitely a great idea yeah and so let's talk to some of the senior pastors uh the uh church board members whatever we want to call the leadership, the deacons, the leadership team of those particular churches and say, hey, got a young missionary couple serving in Southeast Asia. We got a NICU problem. We need

some of the big boys to come in and help here. We need a legal SWAT team. And I think you can put, but that's your job, has put all that together rather than sit and watch this thing deteriorate before your eyes and, oh, it's third denial. And the third denial is the final denial. think it happened after that. Oh, bull. Channel your inner Dave. Bull. Persistence, be resourceful. Cause problems. That's what Dave's been doing for 30 years.

George. It's worked out. George. It's a spiritual gift. Squeaky wheel gets to grease, is all I'm saying. And Dave's been squeaky. You got to get squeaky to get this done. You just called me squeaky. You did. You've been called worse today. I'm going to be honest.

You've been reading the comments again, hadn't you? George, I told you quit reading the comments. It's the only enjoyment I get out of the words. life, Dave. The trolls. You know I don't try to please the masses, because I'm well aware the M is silent. This is the Ramsey show. I used to think home security was just about having an alarm go off when someone breaks in. But by that point, the damage is already done. That's why I trust SimplySafe. They've completely changed the game with a smarter, proactive approach. Their active guard, outdoor protection doesn't wait for the

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is to go to getting unstuck is to visit the website. Go to yrefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Justin in Minnesota. Many people think that for a person to become wealthy, other people must lose wealth because it's a limited pie that is sliced up unequally. I think wealth can be created through innovation, for example, and therefore not limited. What is your opinion of this? Well, Justin, you would be correct. This is a great philosophical. The pie theory is someone that is ignorant of basic economics. The size of the economy shrinks. That's called recession. grows grows too fast and too much it's called inflation the economy is constantly growing in size

the number of dollars moving around the economy today is way different than it was in 1776 darling so this idea that we've simply been swapping of the size of slices of the pie around since 1776 we would all still be living in log cabins shooting muskets that's dumb okay obviously the economy the size of it changes so you don't if someone that believes that by taking by getting money that someone else is being taken from automatically is a fixed pie theory and it just shows ignorance of economics it's so simple a good way to explain I love rabbi lapin's picture it's one of my favorites of all times on this he said the economy and he's an orthodox jewish rabbi wrote a wonderful book called thou shall prosper about prosperity he said

And he addresses this exact issue. He says, the economy is not a pie where if you get a bigger slice, someone else gets a smaller slice. The economy is more like a candle. When you light it, it doesn't take away from yours. It just adds light. And so the economy, because money moves just exactly like that, you can show several examples on how money actually grows. So, Justin, you're right. Innovation isn't a good example of that.

And so money is literally created and no one is the lesser for it. Now, if there were only two people on the planet, when I took, when George took some of my money, I would have less, he would have more. If we both placed a bet and I was right and Dave gives me his money, he lost, I win. That's where that would make sense. Exactly. But the stock market is different. If an Apple share goes up in value because the company is worth more and they make. great products, nobody lost in that scenario. It's because they sold more of those little iPhone

things. Hello. And that's why Apple has, you know, more money than Egypt, literally. And so it's pretty crazy. Yeah, but that's it. And so it's economies are created. And you can also, another place to look at that, Egypt made it come to mind, but not picking on Egypt. That's just a joke, but it's also happens to be statistically true. But the, if you go to a, a country that is underdeveloped, that has a weak economy. What is the difference in that and a what we call a developed country where it has a strong and booming economy? It's not that one of them was issued a larger pie by God. It's that the booming economy grew by innovation, by industriousness, by service, by whatever it is they're doing.

and it causes the dollars or the currency and the GDP will expand the GDP the gross domestic product which is the total of all goods and services sold in an economy and so and that's why some of these comparisons by some of these wealthy quality people are the people like they're arguing back during obamacare they're arguing about well Norway has free health care well Norway's economy is the size of atlantis it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's even in the same ballpark. It's like tricycles go slower than motorcycles too, honey. So, I mean, it's like, no kidding. It's a different thing. They don't even belong in the same sentence. Again, just shows the sheer freaking ignorance of people on basic economic stuff.

Well, Norway has free health care. Well, so does Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I mean, no, it doesn't. But I mean, good God. That doesn't even show up, y'all. I mean, come on. So it's the same kind of thing that goes on and but it always comes back to the underlying emotion is hope versus hopelessness is scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality the people that the Justin that that are coming at you with this they're they have e-or as their spirit animal it's like oh it's bad it's always going to be bad it's always been bad the little man can't get ahead because the big guys taking all the pie and there's perpetual freaking whining it's unbelievable instead of getting up throwing your shoulders back leave the cave kill something and drag it home shut up so it's basically

i'm broke because other people are rich well because i because i refuse to actually look at the real problem which is the guy in my mirror you know it's like i'm going to blame duncan donuts because i have a belly because i can't stay away from their donuts it's not dunkin donuts it's not dunkin donuts it's not Dave's fault. He eats too many freaking donuts. That's Dave's fault. You know, there's a reason I don't look like Mr. Universe, and it's not Dunkin' Donuts fault. Depends what universe. Or, well, well, that's true, but crispy cream either, by the way. So we'll just be a multiple. It's their fault for making addictive products. You know, it's their fault. They made an addictive product. All that sugar just made me want to stand over there every time the hot light comes on. Oh, my God. Am I a victim of this?

No. Okay. So, me too, boys and girls. Me too. too, but you need to decide who you're going to blame in this because it's the difference between scarcity mentality and abundance mentality. It's the difference between fixed pie and candles. It's the difference between hopelessness and hope. It's the difference between Victor and victim. And all of these things line up, and those things make you, are the things that are going to make you successful or not successful, not the fact that someone got yours so you can't get

it out of the little fixed. pie. I think I need a cheesecake now. I think I'm getting hungry thinking about all this. Oh, there's a lot of food in this, all these analogies. Well, the extension of this is should billionaires exist. I've seen this come about. Well, billionaires just should not exist, Dave. Apparently, once you hit 99 million, that's it. You're fine. You're a good person. Once you hit billionaire, apparently you become a terrible, awful human being. Is it true? I thought it was millionaire. But I mean, I've changed the game. Yeah, it's like wealth is evil. No, it's not. people are stupid wealth is not evil well money is just like a brick you can build a hospital

with it or you can throw it to a window the brick doesn't care but when you put it in the hands of a human being you discover whether that human being is a moron or not you discover whether they're a jerk or not you discover whether they're a sweet giving generous person or not when you hand people money it doesn't it doesn't cause them to become something it reveals who they already are. Well, money runned my children. No, darling, your children were already idiots. You handed the money and proved it. He just lit some, that fire added some gasoline on it. That's not. I mean, it's not it. That's just ridiculous. So this idea that, you know, somehow wealth is evil. Well, I mean, the Bible says that money is the root of all evil. See, that's what happens if you get

your theology off a TikTok. The Bible does not say that. It says the love. of money is the root of all evil, which is an indication not of anything about money or amounts of money. It's an indication of the character of the individual that touched it. So if you're going to practice dadgum Christian doctrine, actually learn it before you open your mouth. God, this stuff is so aggravating to me. And so this idea that somehow someone has done something wrong in America because they went and helped a lot of people and made a lot of money in the process. No one was pissed off when I sold a $12 book called Financial Peace out of the back of my car and I sold 10 of them and I was starving to death. When I sold 10 million of them, somehow people got pissed off. Now you're

greedy, Dave. Now I'm greedy and I take advantage of poor people. Oh my God. See, this is the problem if you ever read comments. If you read the comments after articles, you know why some species kill their young. So, oh my gosh. Open phones here. That's how that wraps that little rants up. Sorry to wind you up. I just wound them up and I let them loose. You shouldn't have given me caffeine. and a good subject. And a good subject. There we go. I'll get you a donut for the next hour.

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Thank you for joining us, America. The phone numbers, AAA, 825-5-2-2-25. Patrick is in Boston. Hey, Patrick, how are you? I'm doing great, sir. It's a pleasure to speak with you. You too. What's up?

Well, sir, two years ago, I got divorced, and the house was kind of left in limbo, didn't sell it. I couldn't buy my ex-wife out of the house. she couldn't buy me out. So the deal was that I basically stay in the house until either I sell it or our son comes of age. And I'm kind of stuck between whether I should sell the house now because it does have some equity in it. Or if I stay in the house, I owe her half of the proceeds of the sale. And I'm just not sure whether I want to be giving her all of those, all that equity that I'm putting into the house at this point. Yeah, every repair you do, she gets half of, every payment you pay, she gets half of.

This is not a good deal for you. Yeah, and it's something I've been thinking about for a little while, and there's plenty of equity in the house to give her right now. I would sell it. All right. The sooner you sell, the less damage you're doing by paying more of her share. That or refinance it and buy her out. Can you refinance and get a mortgage and pay out her house?

half uh it's possible i you know since rates went up i haven't really looked into that very deeply but that's certainly a possibility do you want to stay there yeah what's the do you want the house uh to be honest no i i don't want to stay here i'm not from new england originally and i would like to leave so that's also something i've been thinking about but that's fairly easy then it becomes a no-brainer i would do it as soon as possible and if uh you you need a guy you can trust, a gal you can trust, you can go to ramsysolutions.com slash agent, and those are the folks in your area who we trust, who we vet, to help you with these transactions.

Ron is in Indianapolis. Hey, Ron, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. Sure, what's up? A quick background, I'm 74 years old, active, refused to quit working. I've got about four streams of income coming in. But I'm late to the party.

I do have a paid for rental house. I've got a $38,000 in a heat lock on my primary residence. And I've only got $22,000 in my IRA. I've got about $1,800 in savings. So I have $4,100 in a credit card besides the heat lock. The credit card will be paid off in September. What do you make? I make between $58 and $6,000 a month.

Okay. All right. Well, I would plow through the credit card and the HELOC and build your emergency fund of three to six months of expenses and then start investing for retirement. Okay, so that was one of my questions. I should pay off the HELOC and not do investing and HELOC. No.

You should get rid of the HELC on the credit card first, as fast as you can. I mean, really, really, really fast. like living on beans and rice fast well i'm hoping i'll have that paid off by september the credit card and then i'm i'm hoping to uh i was thinking i should build my emergency fund after the helix done after the helix what's the balance on the helix just 20 grand wasn't it 38 300 yeah and you're making you know you're making 70 or 80 000 a year i would knock that thing out like it was a credit card.

Okay. And then you'd be 100% debt-free, house and everything, right? Yes. Yeah, and then you build your emergency fund, and then you start investing into retirement. That's exactly what I would do in that situation. And time is of the essence. I mean, you're 74.

I want to see you retire with dignity one day when you can't work. I know you're choosing to work right now, which is cool, but one day, you know, you might not be able to, and I want to see you with no payments. Yeah, that heat like being gone. It's a big deal here. It's a really big deal. George is in San Diego.

Hey, George, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, how are you doing? Hey, how can we help? Hey, so I'm just looking over my finances the other day, and let me see a speaker. And me and my wife, we just got to a point where we're making $100,000 a year after taxes. And we have no money really to do anything. It feels like we only have a couple of bills, a couple of hard costs, and then all of our fixed costs, like, you know, living, gas, groceries, et cetera, pretty much take up everything. And I'm wondering what would you, how do I look at this?

How do I look at this? Because what I think of, you know, we're making $100,000, about $8,000 a month when you average it all up. And we're still not able to, it feels like we're still kind of living paycheck to paycheck. Is that normal or is there, what should I be looking at here to? Well, you're, you've got an idea in your head, but you're not doing a written plan. If you worked for a company and your job was to manage the division of your company that brought in $100,000 a year and part of your job was you had a P&L responsibility, meaning you had to budget that division, they would fire you because you haven't written a thing down. This is all in your head. and so you need a detailed written budget that you and your spouse both agree to and then you

need to stick to it then you'll figure out where the money's going and figure out what the problem is there's no outside forces here that are conspiring against you so how much are how much is your house payment well right now so we just moved out of the place we were currently living at a couple of weeks ago. We're staying at my wife's moms for three months. Why? And right now, because we were, we got put in a weird situation. We rented from a sub-lease landlord and then three months. Okay, so what are you going to do for housing? Well, for right now, we're staying here. We're paying 500 bucks a month. I know, but you're not going to stay there long. No, we want to be out of here three months maximum. Okay, what are you going to do at the

end of three months. Right now, where we're searching pretty much every day on Zillow. For a purchase or a rental? Rental. Okay. And what do you think your rental is going to run? Right now, I mean, for what we're looking for, I mean, everything that we see is going to be in the $3,500 at a bare minimum to $4,000 range.

You can't do that on $8,000. That's half of your take on that. You can't, you cannot have a rent payment that's half. of your take-home pay. It's not sustainable. What's a healthy percentage? 25%. Two grand. I don't think you could, yeah. So we were paying, we were paying 25.

We had a one-bedroom, 600 square foot, you know, really small place. Here's the thing. You have $100,000 to work with. The math doesn't change just because you live in an expensive area. you know you still are constrained by that you still are going to be broke your whole life and struggling and stressed out if you take a rental payment that's 50% of your take-home pay you've got to get it down towards that 25% mark if you can't then that means you can't afford to live in the area you're looking in you move further out increase the income george go to every dollar

dot com list out that income list out every single expense and you'll figure out real quick where it's all going and what you need to do it's not sustainable you do you don't Don't get a pass on math because you live in San Diego. This is the Ramsey Show. Hold on, folks. Don't panic. Buying a home in today's market doesn't have to be complicated, but it does take more than hope and a quick Internet search.

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lasting wealth. Go to Churchillmortgage.com today to begin a better mortgage experience. Churchillmortgage.com. This is a paid advertisement, an MLSID 1591, and MLS Consumer Access.org, Equal Housing Lender. George Camel Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Bill is with us in San Diego. Hi, Bill. How are you? Bill? Hello, Bill. Hey, how are you? How can we help? I'm good. How are you? Good. How can we help today, sir? All right, so my wife and I combined, we make about $500,000 to $600,000 a year. But we still somehow are able to save as much as I believe they should save. So, you know, so that's my problem.

I mean, our monthly expenses are about $30,000 a month and, you know, then add taxes to that. So we pretty much even out every year. And I believe when we make $5,000 to $600,000 a year, we should be able to save one. I would agree. I think the $30,000 a month expense is your clue. How much of that is debt payments? Well, it's on two properties. One is primary residence and one is an investment property.

And the debt payments on the mortgage are added to about $12,000 a month. Yeah. Why do you need $18,000 a month to run your household? Well, about $8,000 to $9,000 go through charity for a good cause. And then the rest, like I'll say, about $10,000 is for groceries, utilities, for the car payment, and a little bit for, you know, towards a... Why do you have car payments when you make $600,000 a year? Say that again?

Why would you have a car payment when you make $600,000 a year? Well, one of the car is paid off, or the other one, it's a lease. So we made about $750 a month for that one. We have a bigger family, five people, so, you know, it's a relatively bigger SUV. Well, which you could have written a check and purchased and should have instead of leasing and renting your car for $700 a month. Okay. So, yeah, you're giving away $100,000 a year in that $30,000 a month budget.

You said $8,000 to $10,000. So there's where $100,000 of it goes, right? Yeah, easy. Yeah. It could be more than that, $100, $120, yeah. Mm-hmm, okay. And, you know, and you've got a car payment. Yes.

Which we would not have. And what do you guys do for a living? I own a business, and my wife, works with a with a company she makes about $100,000 and the rest of my income and I own a service business. That's a service-based business. Okay. All right. The way you're discussing this, the language you're using is very general. It's not precise about the numbers, which tells me you're kind of just throwing this over there and just shocked that it disappeared. So um if i woke up in your shoes you've got a level of disgust so this is not okay is what you're saying

we make this kind of money we shouldn't have no money we shouldn't have a car payment when we make 600 grand we should just bought the car um then what i would do is simply do a detailed budget with your spouse and come into agreement of what we want to give what we want to save and what we want to spend and what we want to spend it on. And every month before the month begins, every dollar has an assignment exactly. But it kind of feels like, Bill, I went through a period of time in my life where I thought I could out-earn my stupidity, my lack of organization, my lack of detail, and you can't.

If you had a person working in your business that was managing a section of your business as poorly as you are managing your finances, you would fire them, for incompetence. And so you've got to kind of treat it that way from an emotional standpoint and do a detailed budget. And it's funny, Dave, as people make more, especially people who are good at making money, like Bill's good at making money, you're good at making money. You think you can just solve the problem by, well, I'll just make more money. As long as we don't overdraft, we're doing okay. But when you do that budget, you realize if this was a business, you go, we are wasting a lot of money in this business. We could be doing a lot better if we cut the spending, get out of this

debt. We might need to sell this investment property. It's not a blessing right now. Might need to downshift some of our giving a little bit until we get back on track. So that's the kinds of things the levers you'd be pulling. If this was a business, you need to treat your household the same way. Yeah. Every, you know, you need to detail it out and then stick to it. And both of you, you and your wife, have an agreement. You're both looking at it. You're not bringing it and slapping it down on the table and declaring, I have done a budget. You people will live on it. That won't work. No, you get your wife.

involved in the disgust. It's not okay that we make this much money and we have no money. It's not okay that we make this much money and we don't invest. So generosity is awesome. Investing is amazing. Enjoying money. Yes, you should. All three things. But very, very, very, very, very, very, very intentional. And right now you're not intentional. You're kind of throwing a bail of dollars over the fence and then coming back to see what's left later and after the family devours it. And so it may be you downshift your giving. Your giving is pretty heavy. I'm not against generosity in any form. I tell folks to do it all the time. But if you're doing zero investing and you're giving 20%, you may need to adjust that, at least temporarily. But I think you got some lifestyle issues. And I think you guys just kind of walk around

do whatever you want because you make enough money and i think if you'll just actually pay attention and say no we're not doing that no that's crazy that that's a that's a we're spending what on that yeah yeah and you start actually telling the money what to do you'll very naturally uh tighten this up a little bit dane is in houston texas hi dane how are you hey i'm doing good mr ranger how about yourself better than i deserve what's up all right so me and my wife I'm the only one that works out of the family. We've got two kids. Only debt we have is our house.

We owe about $141,000 on it. And we were going to continue paying towards the house and paying it off sooner. But we were wondering, should we sell the house and move farther in wind away from Galveston Bay, so our insurance ain't so expensive. My flood insurance is about $3,000 a year. Homeowners with fires about $2,000, and my windstorm is around $1,500. Should we sell the house that we have a 2.7% interest on and move farther in for a more expensive house with a higher interest rate or stay? Well, in a sense, you have a high interest rate now because you have a hurricane tax.

That's true. In a sense, because of the location of the property. Yes, sir. You know, it's causing you pain. which is because you ask the question. I mean, the only thing wrong with moving is that you're not going to get this same rate next time. Well, whoopi-d-do-pi, when rates come down, you can refinance. We marry the house.

We date the rate. So rates are temporary. Yes, sir. And if you're going to pay this thing off in the next few years, if it's at 140 and you go, we're going to aggressively get this thing down to zero in the next five years, the interest rate's not going to matter that much. Right. Yeah, we planned on paying the house off that we're in now within the next five to ten years. Yeah, and if you bought one in the similar price range, you could do the same thing, but you didn't have all the insurance cost.

Right. So I wouldn't go just upgrade in house and get a way more expensive house and get a way bigger mortgage just to get out of this tax and insurance situation. It's not necessary. Yeah, buy a similar price range. If your payment goes up a little, so what? But I'd buy similar price range and make the move. Here's the way – the best way to handle this sometimes is look out 10 years, 20 years, and say, where do I want to be?

Okay, if you have this house paid for 20 years from now, what is that insurance cost going to do? It's going to go up every year. Yes, sir. Or it's even going to be worse. It's going to be like Florida. It's going to be hard to get at all. Right.

And the house is going to go on up in value. There's no question about that. But you live in this constant, you're in a storm zone, is what it amounts to. So 10 years from now, if you move inland and you pay it off, You're going to have more normal taxes, more normal insurance, and you're going to see an appreciation just as well. So where do you want to live 10 years from today with a paid-for house? That'll answer your question.

This is The Ramsey Show. Thank you for joining us, America. George Camel, Ramsey, Personality, number one bestselling author of the book, Breaking Free from Broke, is my co-host today. Stacey's in Houston. Hi, Stacy. How are you? Hi, Dave.

How are you doing? Better than I deserve. What's up? He's good. So I just had a question. We are in Baby Step 2 right now. I just came across your website and your YouTube channel and everything. And so we are in Baby Step 2.

However, I had a huge question about my vehicle. I have my husband, he owns his work hard, but we are paying on my vehicle. And we're wondering, just based off everything that I've seen with your videos, we're wondering if we should get rid of that car, like if we should somehow get rid of the one that I have. Well, welcome to the tribe. Hi. Yeah. So it's been tied around there and it's not been fun lately, huh? No, it has not been fun. Definitely not. I feel like we've been married for five years now, going to six. And we always struggled with money. And so actually, we did download your every dollar app. And through that app, we have noticed that the big mistake that we're making

is that we're spending more than what he makes. And so we were actually able to see how much money he actually makes in a month. And it's like, well, you know, we're broke because we want to be broke. So we're really tying everything down. We're both on board. And so I feel like this is the best way that I can. You're both on board. I heard that, right? Yes, definitely. Yes, we are. You started out with I download the thing, and then you went to later on in the conversation, we did the app together. So it does sound like you're both on board. I'm good with that, okay?

So I'm proud of you. That's a big step. You are making some big, I mean, because what happened was, is you went, oh, this sucks. And then you started, then when he put it all on the app, the numbers start talking to you, and you went, oh, that's wrong, and that's wrong, and we got to fix that, and that's wrong. And look at this car. No wonder we can't breathe. And so it's the number started talking to.

you and here's the great news you're listening so i predict amazing things for your all's next 12 months it's going to be very very hard but for the first time in your lives you're going to be on a path towards not only not being broke but being wealthy i'm real proud of you guys we want to help you guys any way we can so what do you owe on the car so right now we owe um 28355 have you looked up what it's worth it is worth No, I have not actually. Okay. Go to Kelly Bluebook, KBB.com.

It's probably the most accurate. You can also look at Edmonds for car values. Those are two good places to get values. They put out two types of values on there. Trade-in, which is wholesale, what a dealer would give you for it, which obviously they're going to make a profit on that number. And then private sale, which is if you put it in traders or something like that or Craigslist or whatever, and you sold it yourself.

to an individual to individual, and that's more of a closer to a retail number. The third number is retail, which you can't get because you're not a dealer. But you're probably private sale numbers, what you're looking at. What kind of car is it? What is it? It's a 2003 Volkswagen, Tijuana, small CB. Okay. All right.

Nice car. All right. And what's your household income? it is um well it kind of depends right now he's making um right now he's making about i mean worst case a week it's 1,881 but it's looking more like 2,394 it depends his hours are different so if he gets OT he gets a couple grand a week yes he does okay so he's talking about six figures at So he's making $70, $80,000 a year depending on overtime? Yes.

I mean, up to $100, but probably not getting $2K every week. Okay. Okay. That's take home, though, isn't it? Yes, this is take home. Okay, that's good news. What other debt do you have? So we have, let's see, so we have the, we have one credit card that has 867 on it.

We have a loan, our AC busted. We had to redo the unit, and that right now the balance. is 2015. We owe my dad 10,630, the car payment in the house. Okay. That'll do it. If I woke up in your shoes, like, yes, I would sell this car. Right. You're right. It's the one thing on the list that just screams at me in your numbers, like it did at you when you wrote it down, right? Yes, sir. That's one of the only things you can sort of undo in this mess. Yeah, the rest of it, you're going to have to claw through and live on beans and rice rice and beans you've heard that already on the website didn't take you long to get to that

number and scorched earth we don't eat out unless we're working in that restaurant we don't see the inside of it we're not going on vacation he's picking up all the OT he can you're selling so much stuff the kids think they're next and you're going to get this mess cleaned up yeah and here's the beautiful part with the numbers you just gave me if he can get more overtime rather than less and you sell this car you're dead free in a year Yeah, actually, I was going down the numbers, and we went at it like a gazelle running from the hunter. I mean, we put God above everything else as well, and that really spoke to us, and we've been, you know, studying the Proverbs scripture that you mentioned in the video with the baby steps.

And so we're looking at paying two of these loans or two of these debts. We're paying these off by the beginning of November. Yeah. So, yeah, this is great. And then the loan that we have with my dad, and, you know, everything is great there with the family. But we do need to pay this back, obviously. Yeah. He says to take our time, but we need to get it off our time. No, I want it out of my life.

It's weighing on you more than that. Because you've already breathed in the air of what it's going to feel like to have no payments. You can already get your head around those emotions right now, and now you want it. I can hear it. You're doing great. You're going to kill it. This is awesome. Yeah, I sell the car. Yeah. Because the car, listen, you get you into the car later. whatever you want. But if you'll drive like no one else and you'll live like no one else later, you can live like no one else and you'll get the drive like no one else. That's right. Stacey, I'm going to

send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. It comes with three months of every dollar premium so you can connect it to your bank. You can track all of your expenses with smart tracking. It'll make it real easy for you guys to do this journey. And I hope the book's an encouragement to you, but you guys are already there. I mean, the fact, the way she's talking, this debt might as well already be paid off. It is so interesting, George, that over the 30 plus years of doing this, I talked to somebody making $200,000 a year, and they got $40,000 worth of debt. They don't think they can do it. And I talked to somebody with $100,000 with a debt that makes $60,000 a year, and they think they can do it.

And they actually do. And they're the ones that actually do it. And so she's got, her numbers are excellent. But what's much better than her numbers is her language. It's revealing her heart. And where they are, we are doing this. She's been diving in. She's studying the stuff already.

I mean, she's brand new to Ramsey stuff. and she's already spouting that like she knows it all. Well, there's two pieces that were encouraging. Number one, she looked in that financial mirror. They actually did the budget and they went, oh, crap, we're spending more than we make. That makes sense. That's how we got here. We got to do something about that.

And the other one was the language of just belief that it wasn't someone else's fault. It's not all their fault, but it's their responsibility to pick up the pieces and clean up this mess. And she had the willingness to go, yeah, this is on us. You know, that's a good point, George. What are you going to do when you have an oh, crap moment? what is your first response is it to blame others to get angry to whine or do you go all right let's get the budget out let's see what we're working with here and she finally got to that point most people never get there yeah or it takes 20 years of marriage sometimes when you have

a moment like that you freeze from just fear or being stuck or whatever and other people they go into attack mode she's like I got to find this out I got to work this I got to get this got it, and this is what you said to do. Do we need to do this? And all she wanted was, one little clarification on the car, but she's already game on, you know? And she found that like the little kernel of hope and just hung on to it, and it's starting to grow. And she's seeing this light at the end of the tunnel.

That's the best part. Yeah. Proverbs says, when desire comes, it is the tree of life. Yeah. Wow. It's powerful. Not much stopping you there. Once you get that desire, it's powerful.

It'll carry you. What are you going to do when you have an old crap moment? What's your next step? I don't start gathering information, fix the problem. Gather information, fix the problem. I don't care what the moment, what area of your life the moment is in. It could be money. It could be something else.

What are you going to do? Got to gather information. I've got to fix the problem because the information I had before brought me to this old crap moment. I got to stop using that same information. This is the Ramsey show. You know, I'm going to be able to

George Camel, Ramsey, Personality, is my co-host. Gordon is in Seattle, Washington. Hi, Gordon. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, Dave. Yeah, thank you for taking my call, and I appreciate all that you teach. Thank you. Just wanted, yeah, just wanted to give advice on some problems,

well, not problems, but decisions are going to make. So I'm on these steps. to being ready to liquidate my after-tax investment account, clean out my savings besides the $1,000 baby emergency fund to attack some personal loans. My question to you is, would it be worth it to take a loan out of my 401K just to clear out all the personal loans

since the interest on the 401K loan is essentially paid to myself? No. How much debt do you have? Personal loans about 22,000, and then steering loans about 30,000. Okay, and how much are all these after-tax investments going to create when you liquidate them? Only about 6,000 and another 6 or 7 in savings. Okay. So it brings your debt down to 40 if you do that. From 52, yeah.

So you've got $40,000 in debt. What's your household income? Right around $155 before tax. Good. Okay. All right. The problem with the 401K loan is several. One is, yes, you do pay yourself back the interest,

but you unplug that portion of the investment from the mutual funds that would have been earning you 12 this year, maybe even more percent. So maybe you would have made 15, but you paid yourself five, instead. Bad idea. Number one. Number two, when you leave the company, and you will leave the company, when you die, when you get a better job, or when they fire you, you will leave the company, okay? And if that loan is still in place at that time, it becomes due in full. If you do not pay it off in 60 days, it's considered an early withdrawal with all the taxes and penalties. So that leaves you very, very vulnerable. It's a really bad loan. And so, and you've still got $40,000 to pay off

regardless of what we do, making $155, which you ought to do in what, like a year? Yes, if I really tell you. Yeah, if you do, if you get on beans and rice, rice and beans, and you tear into it, it sounds like you've studied our stuff and you're doing, you know, you're cleaning out everything, you're leaving $1,000, you're going to stop adding to the 401K. Yes, I would do that. but we never tell people to borrow on a 401k ever. I don't even offer the borrowing option to our team. Couldn't do it if you wanted to here, which is good.

Stop people from doing stupid. It's not available. Just not available. Just because I'm not going to participate in you doing something stupid. It's as simple. So the – but no, I – that's the problems with it is you're going to get – you just leave yourself very, very vulnerable as opposed to a regular loan, so to speak. I mean, if you went and got just another loan at the bank for $40,000 and paid you. off and cleaned them up, but you've got one big loan instead at 5%. You know, that would be okay because you don't have all these other problems.

You didn't unplug an investment that might have made you 12 or 15, and you didn't leave yourself open to penalties and taxes in the event you leave that particular position. So, because other, I mean, let's pretend somebody came along offered you double income. You got to think about not taking that because you got these stupid handcuffs that you've created. Yeah, that's what people do. They go, oh, I was going to take that better job. But then I had borrowed on my 401 and I was going to get hammered. So, yeah, that's what you don't want to do, Gordon.

This is gone in less than a year. I mean, if you make 155 after taxes, let's call it 110, you can live off 60 and pay off 50 in a year. And so it's a $40,000 debt. And you're probably going to add to your income and you're probably going to find some other stuff to sell. Maybe it's 14 months. Maybe it's 15 months. Maybe it's nine months. I don't know, but it's somewhere in that range.

It's not a five. It's not a five-year issue. Yeah. And I wouldn't put all of this other stuff at risk for that. And so, no, I've never told anybody to do that. And, folks, it's a good idea to just, aside from Gordon's question, let's just sidebar a second, George. The thing that we have figured out at Ramsey that a lot of people in the financial world are now acknowledging because we've made such a big footprint in the space. But most of the people, when I was growing up in the financial world, we thought all this was a math problem.

It's all about the math. Well, I was, hey, the interest is higher here. Why wouldn't I do this with lower interest? All I got to do is fix the math, and I'm going to be okay. And what I've discovered in 35 years of doing this is it's not a math problem. It's a me problem. It's 80% personal finances, 80% behavior and 20% head knowledge. Now, why does that matter? Well, if you fix the math and you don't fix the behavior, you're going to be right back in the soup. that's why debt consolidation doesn't work.

That's why we call it a con. Because you move all your debt from one place over to another into one big loan. In this case, he's using a 401K to do it. Now, in his case, it doesn't apply because he is actually changing. He's, he has changed what he's doing. He's cleaning out these savings accounts. He's thinking about this. He's doing a budget.

You can hear Gordon's really focused, right? So this is not, this particular part of the discussion does not apply to Gordon, okay? Because I think he's beyond that. He's willing to make the sacrifices. But a lot of people that have called me over the years that want to do a debt consolidation on. I want to move my debt over here. First thing is, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, the Bible says,

and they say, I paid off my debt. With the debt consolidation. No, you didn't. You moved it. You put it in the junk drawer. You didn't pay it off. But what that tells me is, is you took the pressure off of yourself and it's now okay. Because I paid it off.

No, you didn't. You moved it. and you still got the problem in your mirror. This person is still not handling money. This person is still spending money like they're in Congress. They're not on a written plan. This person in the mirror is still impulsive. This person in the mirror is still not working with their spouse.

They're still not thinking long term. They're still doing a bunch of other stupid stuff. And so the debt's going to grow back. And we know from the debt consolidation industry that 88% of you, That's nine out of ten that take out a debt consolidation loan. Your debt grows back after you move it. So you end up with twice as much debt because you don't change the behavior's habits, character issues that caused it in the first place.

Yeah, and these are all shortcuts at the end of the day. And it feels like you did something when you take a shortcut. But the problem is, like you said, you're going to be right back where you started. When people do these 401K loans or the HELOC or whatever the move is, they actually end up in the same place they were a year from now. Because the same person. And you've got to transform if you want to see different results. Yeah. And so, you know, the same thing happens with your marriage. Okay. How many times you know somebody, and I know people, because, again, you go through enough life, you see this. But I know people

who are in a marriage and they have a certain set of behavior problems in their relationship. They get divorced and go marry a new person with the exact same set of issues. And they didn't fix their own issues so they do they just do it again because they thought that they thought the problem was that person and it wasn't it was the issues that were not addressed the core things you go with you and so yeah you the problem is you take you with you when you do all this stuff and me too I'm the same thing so the beautiful thing that happened when Sharon and I went broke was we didn't have a choice we had to change we didn't have even food electricity was cut off we had to change we had to We had to address the ridiculousness of our decision-making paradigms, our ridiculous set of assumptions, our stupid intellectualizing, rationalizing, ridiculous financial concepts with my intellect that absolutely caused me to lose everything because I'm an idiot.

You know, I had to face all that. I didn't have a choice. You ran out of shortcuts. There was not, I was, everything was gone. I just left with this mirror, you know, and I'm stuck with me. and I'm like, God, you are a problem. But the beautiful thing about something that dramatic and traumatic is you come away from it, change. You don't have a choice. When you guys are just kind of everything's okay and nothing's smacking the crap out of you to get your attention,

you don't have to face it. And so our job here is to keep you from having those extreme experiences and instead letting you choose to face it rather than all your choices are taken away. Yeah. be the preventative medicine. That's why this whole thing works, guys. That's why this Ramsey stuff works, is we have figured out the guy in your mirror,

the gal in your mirror is the problem. That's the bad news. The good news is they're the solution. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, guys, Rachel Cruz here with a big announcement. The Ramsey Show live is going on tour. This is your chance to no longer just listen on your daily commute. But be in the room where life change happens.

We're removing the wall between caller and audience so you can take part in money confessions, hot takes, and more. Plus, you'll hear live callers get answers to their pressing questions. I'll be in Chicago on September 30th, alongside George Camel and Ken Coleman. Then George, Jade Warshaw and Dr. John Deloney will be in Orlando on October 2nd. Tickets start at $39 and are limited to just 300 seats in each city, so don't wait. especially if you want one of the 50 VIP tickets that includes a meet and greet, the best seats in the house, and more. It'll be a night full of hope, community, and the kind of energy you can only get in person. Get your tickets today at ramsysolutions.com slash the Ramsey Show Live, or just click the link in the show notes.

Brought to you by the Every Dollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show. We help people. Build well, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Camel Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones at AAA-825. 5-2-2-5. That's AAA. 825-5-2-2-2-5. Caleb is with us in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hi, Caleb. How are you? Better than a center like myself deserves, Dave. How about yourself? About the same, brother. What's up? Well, my wife and I are 25 years old. We've been married for

three years now, owned a home for the last year, and we are $581,000 in debt. Including the house. Including the house. How much of that's house? $360. Okay. And so you've got $170 and personal? $220, $5181 total, $360 on the house, $160 in federal student loans, $34 on two cars,

and $27,000 in a personal loan from our plastic surgery that we did with our credit cards. Okay. What do you guys make? What's your household? income? This year we're at 176,000 and salary before a bonus for me. So she makes 83. I make about 93. What are your careers? She's a physical therapist and I'm a regulatory compliance person in clinical research. Gotcha. Okay. You're 25 years old and you got almost a $200,000 household income. Yeah. I've been pushing hard to get us rough and eligible before we turn

30. That's a goal of mine. Yeah. I don't know that you need to worry about that considering the dad-gum mess you've made, but yeah. Yeah, I've definitely made a big one. Yeah. So how can we help? Well, I have an offer right now to buy my truck out for $4,000 over what I owe on it. Mm-hmm. Should I apply that $4,000 to a couple of the small federal student loans that we have at

0% interest or throw it at the $27,000 personal loan at 13%. What are you going to drive after your truck's gone? We have a little $3,000 beater car. One car? One car? We have two cars. I'm sorry, three cards, we owe on two. Okay. So we have a third little beater car that I can get around the time with. Okay. That works. And then your next...

So what's he apply to the surplus too, George? Well, that would go to your next smallest debt. So when you look at the balances of everything, if you split everything out, individual cards, individual student loans, what is the next smallest balance? We have a couple of federal student loans that are worth $1,000 a piece. Knock them out. There's a couple of those. Okay. Okay. Interest rate is not your problem. Lack of systems and processes. and efficient use of your money is your problem. Okay, okay.

So we're going to get on a budget. We're going to live on beans and rice, rice and beans. You're going to act like you're a college student again and live on nothing. We're not going out to eat. We're not going on vacation. We're going to take this fabulous income you have and clean up this fabulous mess you've made. Are you guys investing right now at all?

Well, that's another question that I have. I would like to take advantage of the match that my new company has No, you're broke. Don't take advantage of a match? You're broke. Okay. You're deeply in debt. You need to clean up this mess.

You can't serve two masters. You can't house to fight it against itself will fall. When you're trying to invest out of the one hand and pay off debt out of the other hand, neither one are done well. Okay. You'll be in debt for 20 years while you invested 3%. Neither are going to get you very far. You need to get really, really, really angry and scared about this debt.

That's kind of where I am up. Yeah, and the two of you looking at it going, yelling at it, you're going down, right? I mean, you've got to get that kind of thing going, and we're going to slice and dice to nothing. And the bad news is you've got a lot of debt and a big mess. The good news is you're both very bright people, and both of you have studied and learned processes and systems. your academic life and I've applied them in your career life. So systems that create predictable outcomes are your life. So if you will apply the system that we put in place to get you out of debt so that you become very, very wealthy within a decade, you will be able to use this fabulous income

you have and clean up this mess in a lightning speed. You'll be amazed at how fast you clean it up. with that being said dave who can i look to to find a financial mentor because both of our sets of parents are not going to need a mentor you need a budget okay we got the plan we're the mentors you're not dumb you're not dumb you're just trying to fit you just need a system okay apply the we're going to show you the baby steps you're new to all this ramsie stuff apparently right yeah i got the thousand dollar done but yeah that's then we're going to work off the debt snowball listing our debts smallest to largest, pay minimum payments on everything, stop all investing, take lifestyle down to scorch earth, and squeeze every stinking dime out of your life and throw it

at that smallest debt until it's gone. When that one's gone, get the next one. When that one's gone, get the next one. And what happens is your behavior gets more and more intense because hope is increased each time you have these traction points. And you're going to get just so fired up and singularly focused that you won't even feel like you're sacrificing but your friends are going to think you've joined a cult understood that's how that's how this works it's a behavior mechanism we're managing behavior because you've got the mathematics in front

of you you can see i can see 200,000 dollar income including bonuses and i can see 200,000 dollars in debt with the car gone okay not counting the house how fast am i going to do that well i'm going to do that in about 14 to 18 months and we're not even 27 yet and we're not even 27 yet and debt for free. And if you're debt-free making $200, you know how much you can invest then, dude? Dad-Gum. A lot. I mean, debt-free but the house, you know, I mean, the math on that, you're going to be so stinking wealthy. It's unbelievable. But I've got to get the impediment out of the way. I got to get the blockage cleared before we can get the patient healthy so that he can run the dad-gum triathlon. Okay. That's what we're after here. And I'm going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from

Broke, Caleb. I wrote it with you in mind. A 25-year-old who's going, I feel like the system's rigged against me. I make all this money. I don't know where it's going. And I feel like it's everyone else's problem. And if the next president could fix it and inflation could calm down. And then I go, hold on, let's hold up the mirror and let's look at Caleb. What can Caleb do with a $200,000 income that he's giving away to lenders every month?

There we go. There we go. I will do it. And in fact, Caleb, get in touch with our team. Because you're old, George. Yes. Well, I'm going to put Caleb on my YouTube channel and show everyone that it can be done. Okay. How's that?

How's that? So we'll get your email, Caleb, and I'll send you a comment. copy my book, Breaking Free from Broke, and if you're willing to let me be your mentor in front of a few hundred thousand folks, we can help a lot of people and show them by doing an actual budget what it's going to take for Caleb to get out of this mess. You're going to be like the before and after on the biggest loser. You might lose a George Camel in the process. That's not much. Really? I mean, that's just like, that's like not eating donuts for three days. Not even impressive. Dave could lose that tomorrow. Hey, hey! You could. It's all I'm saying. He's got the

discipline. Golly. Wow. All right. Hang on, Caleb. I think George is your mentor. I'm not sure. He's not so sure. But yeah. I'm just wondering what I've signed you up for here, buddy. Well, the Caleb's out there. They fell for all the money traps. They went down the path. Everyone told them to go down. Take out all the student loans you can get. Get a nice car payment. You work too hard. You deserve it. Get a big mortgage. I mean, he's the poster child for what's happened with the American dream. It's turned into the American nightmare. It's land of the free home of the broke out there. And then what do I do? Who do I turn to? Neither one of my parents knew anything about it. My best, my high school counselor told me to go,

$160,000 in debt. My friends are all broke. They don't know. There we go. We'll show you the way, man. Hang on the line. We'll help you out. George, the youngest mentor.

That's your Nicky. I like that. The youngest mentor is your new book. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, guys. I'm so excited to tell you that our new 2026 Ramsey goal planner is available right now. This isn't just your average planner.

It's your personal guide to setting clear goals and building habits that stick. So get ready for all new monthly content from your favorite Ramsey personalities, tactical goal setting trackers, and upgrades that make this our most durable planner yet. Last year, we sold out, so don't miss out. Order your 2026 Ramsey Goal Planner for 4997 today at Ramsey Solutions.com slash store. George Camel Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. If you're thinking about buying a home or selling a home in this weird real estate market,

you definitely need a high-quality, high-octane real estate agent in your corner. If you want to know who we have vetted, who we coach and spend time with to make sure they do it the Ramsey way and that they are real high producers, like not somebody just got their license last week, but happens to be your friend. Oh, yuck. No, let's get an absolute pro that sells 30 to 300 houses a year. Go to Ramsey trusted real estate agents. Ramsey Solutions.com slash agent is how you'll find for free. the Ramsey trusted agents in your area, and then you can select from among them who best

to help you with your next real estate transaction. Kim is with us. Kim is in Cincinnati. Whoops, whoops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops, oops. What am I doing? Where is she? There's Kim. Kim is in Cincinnati. Hi, Kim. How are you? Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. Dave, this one's mainly for you. You have adult children. My husband and I are, um, it's that time over coming to update or will potentially change some things to payable on death, et cetera. And we have two young adult growing children and one party thinks that to

sleep everything to the children, they'll be fine. They'll know how to handle it. They'll make a decision. One is a little concerned that that might be a little too much. Number one and number two, um, even though they're living, you know, pretty frugal lives, if they're not doing some of the. basic steps that we took to get us where we are, I just don't know if that would be in their best interest.

So kind of wanted to, and then you had a call a couple months ago. It was either with Ken or John where it was about, you know, parents trying to control adult children. That is not the case. I actually want to set them up for the best case scenario and have this be a blessing to them. So I wanted to know your thoughts. More money in anyone's life causes them to be more of what they are, good and bad. Disorganized person becomes chaotic and completely disorganized.

A generous person becomes generous. And it's very visible. An angry person becomes more angry. A depressed person becomes more. more depressed. A kind person and gentle person becomes kinder and more gentle. A, uh, and so on. And so on.

I just didn't, I just didn't, yes, thank you. But I just didn't know of popping a couple million into a 30 year old hands. There's nothing wrong with that if they have the character to carry it is what I'm saying. But if they're exhibiting problems, if they're, um, you know, they're prone to overspending. And you plop a couple million in their hands, they're going to overspend. Sure. Yeah, it's not so much that, but just for example, like, they're not even putting, they're putting very, very low percent into retirement for themselves.

Why? So, because that's what they're choosing to do. I don't, and they've seen us, and they saw how we had nothing for several, several years, and how finally our behavior has finally paid off. I mean, we never thought we would get to. where we were, but by following the steps and working hard. Whatever it is that they're doing right, they will do more of it. Whatever it is that they're doing wrong, they will do more of it when you leave them money. And so if they're doing more wrong than right, you are not

blessing them by leaving them a couple million dollars because you're going to cause them to magnify the bad behavior. If it's minor bad behavior, if your husband thinks that, oh, leaving them a couple million dollars they'll suddenly become smart and they were dumb no they won't they'll become dumber no that isn't the case they're very they have good heads on their shoulder how old are they right now 30 30 29 and 30 and you guys are i think it's mid 50s okay and you're not going to die tomorrow right no but if we would both die you know we need to change some things so that it doesn't all go through will and and all that we want to have some payable on death account. Um, we've explained to them, you know, that the rock doesn't, they can keep that

and that can be transferable on death versus a traditional how they would have to pull that out. I believe it's within 10 years and be taxed on that things like that. They know the basics. They don't know our total net worth. Um, but like I said, just the example, I think, and I don't, I don't expect everybody to do the side hustles and to work as many hours as I do, but when like the basic thing of not even putting 10 or 15% back for yourself, those little things, because I have learned and I have exhibited how that can change your life.

It made you a multimillionaire. Yes. Okay, so is that the, you brought that up twice, is that the only thing they're doing that you think is irresponsible? Yeah, pretty much because I don't, like, even their emergency funds, they don't even have them in a high-ield savings account, just little things like that. and I feel like I've said all I can say without, you know. Oh, you probably, yeah, you probably have, yeah.

Right. So their emergency fund is where? Just in a regular savings account. And let me preface, too. They both have no debt other than their very modest homes. Okay. So they're following the basic principles that way. It's just they're missing the chance for compounding and for growth

by not just being a little bit more disciplined. Both of them? Yes, sir. in different ways but yes sir and I don't want to sound like if we sit down and say okay we like to have a talk

that it sounds like I'm trying to control their everyday life and budget or it be a threat we're not leaving you everything if you don't change your ways because I just don't think I will be able to deliver that well in a way that they're going to interpret

this is really I mean I know they know I care and we love them we're very close but I don't want to do anything. And so I obviously want to leave a larger portion to charity than my husband does. And also we have it set up where now that a portion... Is there any strain between you and their married partners, the in-laws? Well, I don't think so.

we voice asked them to to communicate openly with us so that things you know don't go on set and then grow and cause hurt and we have grants and then I don't know how many you know how much to specify goes to the grand versus the parent okay so are you asking me what I would do I think just because you have adult children if you think I'm kind of on the right track do you feel like that my I think your concerns are valid but not enough of a concern I didn't hear anything here that gave me such pause that I would not leave the kids the money oh I'm not saying not leave them money I'm not saying all of it all of it I don't need to leave it to charity well we're going to be part of it to charity anyway yeah do whatever you want to that's fine

I don't have any desire to do that the um uh uh in terms of in your situation, I don't hear anything that says that they have invalidated their right to manage millions of dollars. It's not optimal what they're doing, but it's not misbehavior. Yeah, I mean, they're at the 90, 95% implementation, and the other 5% is driving you crazy, is what I'm hearing, because the 5% matters, and it's done you good, and I appreciate that. I'm glad for you. And if they live a long life, they could inherit this at 60. So we just don't know. There's too many variables here. But I, and it won't be a million, and it will be several million if it goes that long because of compounding.

So, you know, I think for today I'm going to set the will up and leave the vast majority of it to the kids. If you want to earmark some for charity, that's fine. But I'm not, they haven't invalidated their right to manage money in anything you told me. And I don't see any kind of confrontational thing being. I'm with you. I agree with you on that, Kim, that it probably wouldn't be profitable. I try to have a talk about all that. I think I simply would just leave it to them. I'm going to side with your husband on this. But you do whatever you want to do. It's your money. It's okay.

They're not entitled to it, morally, ethically, or legally. It's whatever you choose to do. This is The Ramsey Show. You spend hours researching before making a major purchase like a home or car, but it's also a good idea to put in the work searching for the right insurance coverage. To protect your biggest assets, I recommend using Ramsey trusted pros. Whether you're looking for car, home, or any other type of insurance, Ramsey trusted providers have been coached and vetted to serve you like we would.

Find what you need at ramsysolutions.com slash insurance. George Camel, Ramsey Personality is my co-host today in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage. Luke and Kate are with us. guys, how are you? Good, how are you? Better than we deserve. Welcome to Nashville. Where do you guys live? We're from Asheville, North Carolina. Oh, love Asheville. What a great town. Very cool. Well, welcome all the way over. And how much debt have you paid off? $176,000. All right. How long did that take? 24 months. Whoa. And your range of income during that time? We started at $165, and then when my husband, Luke,

finished school. We ended at about 275. Cool. Cool. What do you guys do for a living? I'm a technical product manager. And I'm a physician's assistant with an allergy and immunology practice. Wow. Wow. That PA school, huh? Okay. Good for you. Great career choices. Amazing. Very well done. Wonderful. Income. What kind of debt was the 176? P.A. school? It was all student loans. I had about 130 for myself and then she had about 45. Wow. Okay. So you're coming out of school. you say okay the income's getting ready to jack we already make 165 but we're getting ready to jack this and but we got a mess what made you decide to do all this stuff 24 months ago and get real serious about it

well it was kind of the the shocking revelation that hey i got to find a job to pay all this back i mean i think we i decided to go to pa school and i didn't really know what the numbers were going to look like at the end and so when we got to the end it was like holy cow and you know the amount put a lot of weight on our shoulders it was hard to you know kind of do the things that we wanted to do without feeling guilty yeah so we wanted to get out of that situation okay very cool is anything in particular happened 24 months ago that said game on we we're about to have our first daughter oh all right bringing a kid into the world do you want to kind of go in with a fresh slate and give them the best opportunity they can have

Yeah, they, that's like a tuning fork. It causes everything to get into and you go, oh, oh, wait a minute, adult time, game on. Yeah, very cool. And how'd you find us? I actually used to work with someone who claimed her and her husband's success was because of Dave Ramsey. And it was like, who's this Dave Ramsey person? So I went home and bought your book, read it in 24 hours, and then went to my husband and said, you have to read this book.

It makes so much sense. and we should think about kind of getting on the debt-free journey. Wow. And so you read, both of you read Total Money Makeover? So when she comes with you a book, and you just finished school, look, and she's handing you a book. I mean, what do you say? I mean, like, enough books. Well, so we didn't get the book when I finished school.

We were kind of listeners, but, you know, maybe Dave Light for several years. Yeah, yeah, we really enjoyed the show, but we decided to take it serious when. when we got out of school completely. When the baby's on the way and she reads the book, hands it to you. You're like, yes, ma'am, yes ma'am. Yep. Wow.

Very cool. Good for y'all. How old's the baby now? She's a little under two, and we're expecting our second in the next month. Yay. She's a little bit. Yes, thank you.

Fun, fun, fun. Good for y'all. What a cool journey. Yeah, very good. Most people it takes, we found the average is 20 years to pay off their student loans. And you guys just buckled down.

You have this great income, and you said, we're going to knock it out in two. Was that a specific goal or did you have a longer time horizon and you beat it? I think we knew our income was extraordinary for the location that we lived in and just kind of our professions. And we wanted to take advantage of the opportunities that we were given and get it done as quickly as possible so we can invest for the future. Yeah. We were actually able to do it a little bit quicker than we expected. Kate was laid off from a tech company at one point and she was provided a generous severance package.

And rather than using that to do other things, we just put all that towards her debt. And she had a job within a week or two after the... Wow. Now, severance package turns into a signing bonus for the next job. That was very helpful. Yeah, it's all free money then, game on. It took a lot of discipline, though. Instead of vacations and upgrading the car, you went, we've got to pay off these student loans.

Yep. Good for y'all. How's it feel? So good. Amazing. Was it worth it? Was it worth it? Was it worth it?

Absolutely. All right. What do you tell people? the secret to getting out of debt is? Perseverance and determination, and it's not just about the journey, or it's not just about the destination, it's about the journey, how you get there, and your character changes as a part of it and lasts a little bit longer than just paying off the debt. So it's really rewarding. There's a piece of this where you overcame $176,000 in debt in two years. And so now it's like,

what can't we overcome? In life, not even finances. And there's something about the debt-free journey that's inspiring and it usually begets more transformation and uh you guys are a perfect example of that yeah we definitely feel that way we try to tell all of our friends and family uh to listen to the show and also smart money happy hour for my friends who uh aren't as big of fans of just like listening to straight financial content thank you there we go something for everyone george just for no you're not straight financial content we're a gateway drug we're a gateway drug to the ramsie show that's right that's so fun well thank you guys for being here and telling your story people have said there were drugs

involved and i always wondered sometimes a mocktail uh way to go you guys we're so proud of you excellent i mean what an incredible situation how old are you two 33 and my wife turned 30 today oh happy birthday all right thank you that's very cool day's going to sing to you on air not a bit not a chance they'll do talk radio for a reason but yeah this is great i mean what an Incredible. This incredible income and no payments, you're going to be able to do anything you want to do from this point. Man, absolutely awesome. Very, very well done. What's the next thing you guys are going to do? What's the fun thing, the expensive thing? Well, it's stork mode until we have the baby. And then I think we're just going to continue to invest money appropriately and that way we're ready for whatever comes next. You'll be ready. Yeah, definitely. Well done. We've got the live and give box for you. That includes.

The Baby Steps Millionaire's book. You'll be there in a minute if you're not already there. Total Money Makeover book that started the whole thing for you guys and a Babystack and a Financial Peace University membership. You can use those or you can give them away. You can do whatever you want. They're our gift to you to say thanks for coming all the way over from Asheville, North Carolina, to do your debt-free scream.

You two are inspiring. Very well done, heroes. Excellent job. You took control of your life. You could have done a lot of stupid butt things with this. Instead, you really dialed in, hammered at home, and change your family tree for these two kiddos. Very, very well done.

Good stuff. Good stuff. All right, it's Luke and Kate. Asheville, North Carolina, $176,000 paid off in 24 months, making $165 to $275. Count it down. Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one, we're debt-free. Yeah.

Oh, wow, whoop, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, look, who, man, oh, man. That's excellent. Very good stuff. Those are two great career fields, too. The opposite of what we were talking about earlier. I'm going to be broke and live my passion. Both of them have, I mean, PA is a great track in the medical world.

That's a great track to get on. And the physician's assistant process and product manager, in the technical space, I mean, it's just, you can see, definitely ROI. Proofs in the pudding here, they make $2.75 and no payments in the world at 30 and 34. It's just mind-boggling how much more you can give, how much more you can invest after 24 months of sacrifice. You know, I haven't added it up, but if you invested $100,000 a year, how fast would you be a millionaire? Probably six and a half, roughly, I'm guessing. I mean, 10 years would be a million dollars if you had no compounding interest.

benefit so uh he's stuck it in a mattress if you yeah put it put it in a fruit jar you'd have that but that's how fast these i mean these guys are going to they're going to be millionaires when they're 37 or less something like that if they and that's if they live on 175 000 a year that'll do you know i mean with no payments you see the power of this it's that puts you in an incredible incredible situation so beautifully done guys that was fabulously done very good that's inspiring This is what happens. So, you know, it's funny. You can live your life that way.

And you've got to admit, that's not normal. That's weird. They're weird people in such a great way. Or you can go be normal. But who the flip wants to be normal? Oh, my God. That's horrible. Nobody wants to be normal.

One out of three people making six figures paycheck to paycheck. Normal. We get those costs. Make 200 grand. We're broke. Normals. Awful. This is The Ramsey Show.

Our Scripture of the day, 1 Peter 410, each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God's grace in its various forms. Steve Martin said, thankfully, perseverance is a great substitute for talent. There we go. Emily is with us in Tucson. Hi, Emily. Welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I am blessed to be here. Thank you. Good to have you. How can we help? So, a very long story short, I have been unemployed now for over a month. I have been applying like crazy for jobs around my area. Nobody is calling me back. I've had a few interviews, and they decided to go with other people for positions, which is great for them.

Like, I'm blessed for them. The problem is that I am now behind on my card payment and credit card payments, and I feel like my hope is gone. I'm just, I'm struggling to hold on to the hope that God will get me through this. Scary. I'm sorry. Thank you. Okay.

The first thing we need to do is you've got to get the, wolf away from the door and by that I mean the the immediate needs need to be covered okay you can do that with door dash you can do that by applying at Walmart or Target and you'll get hired today and go down there make $20 an hour and start working your tail end off and you can make enough to pay for food lights and water in your car payment if your credit cards get behind it's not the other world but I want you to take care of you know a place to live water and electric and food and transportation okay and you can make that much money at a not great job but you just go get it real quick okay we're not doing that

for long that's not your permanent assignment but it's to get this immediate pressure off okay okay so and you can get those jobs by the end of the day Yes, sir. Yeah. Go to five pizza places, Target, Costco, Walmart, whatever, and tell them you can start work tomorrow. And they're paying $20 an hour right now, all of them, and they'll start you almost immediately. Okay? So, wash your face, put your makeup on, brush your teeth, smile, go down there and be your best Emily,

and land you a whole bunch of stuff by the end of tomorrow. I want you to have three jobs. Okay. and that'll help because you can get a thousand bucks a week coming in doing that stuff now that's not your permanent solution but that gets this terrifying this terror off your doorstep because this is terrifying it is you know a lot of my friends have you know husbands and family that they can rely on and it's just me I don't you're enough you're enough you can do it you're enough you're sharp enough you can do it i trust you i think you can okay and and again

so that's the first step now if you've got a thousand dollars a month coming in i mean a thousand a week coming in and you are working 40 hours at miscellaneous jobs that you don't want to do for the rest of your life now we got to start talking about a career job now the job that you lost what were you making um i was making 20 an hour I'm sorry. I'm not great at math, so I'm not sure how much that was in a year. Okay. What were you doing? It's about 40 grand. I was a front desk receptionist. And why did you lose the job?

The job was dissolved. Okay. Okay. And you're how old? I will be 30 in November. Okay. And do you have a degree? Unfortunately, I do not. That's okay. so for 10 years of your life you've been a front desk receptionist no I I've the first six years of me working in the just working in the field I worked in

daycare I've been a call center supervisor and I've also worked property management so I've kind of been all over the place okay so what I want you to do also a first thing is get some money coming in to get rid of this terror you got that part right Yes, sir. Then I want you to start thinking about what 40-year-old Emily is going to be doing that pays $80,000 a year or more. What is it you're going to be doing that gives you a great life that you love doing? Now, I'm going to send you some tools of Ken Coleman's to help you do that. The find the work you're wired to-do book has in it.

the get clear assessment that will help you get clear on your gifts, talents, passions, and what to aim those at in a career. Does that make sense? Yes, sir. This is my gift to you. It costs you nothing, okay? Thank you so much. You take the assessment, and then you sit with that, sit with some friends, sit with a parent,

if you have functional parents, and say, this is what this report's telling me. Does that line up with what you know about me? Then I want you to start laying out a strategy that says, I want to be X. I want a new dream. I'm going to be one of those things. And if that means you've got to go take a class or get a certificate or whatever to go be one of those things, I don't care. Go take a class while you're working these other things. And then I'm also going to send you Ken's book, The Proximity Principle, because you've just been running around applying at places trying to get a

job you weren't really trying to go do something big with your life you were just trying to get some money coming in so you weren't hungry right and you weren't you weren't uh thinking about where you just ran in there heard they were hiring and ran in there and filled out an application you and 15,000 other people filled out the same application and the proximity principle teaches you how to go get a job that you love in a career field that is directed by you and taking you to a place that's going to be different. So you're going to be a very fulfilled, wealthy, 40-year-old if you do what I'm teaching you to do. Thank you so much.

I just want to be a blessing to others, and I'm just, I don't want to keep droning. I want to be able to be a blessing someday to somebody. Well, that's the interesting thing about the marketplace is when you do a really good job helping people, they give you certificates of appreciation with president's faces on them. When you are a blessing to people in the capitalistic system that we have, you make money. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's a great trade that we have out here. So it turns out that if I sell somebody a book for $26 or whatever we sell these books for these days,

and it helps them get out of thousands of dollars in debt, makes them into a millionaire, they were blessed, and I got $26 bucks. Do that a couple million times. It'll work out for you. You know, help a couple million people. I got several million dollars as a result. It worked out, and they all got help, too. See, isn't it a wonderful trade?

You get to be a blessing, and the natural result is you get blessed. So you're going to be fine, and you're going to be fine. It doesn't have to be that you somehow diminish in order for, you. you to be of good, be doing good. Yeah. And one other thing, Emily, if the car is worth a whole bunch, let's say you know, you got a $10,000 loan, but the car's worth $20,

it'd be wise to just sell that thing, get out from under the payment and go buy you a cheaper car because you need some breathing room right now. Yeah, if you've got some room in it. Yeah, depending on the situation. If you're underwater, it's not going to make sense. Yeah, that's exactly right. But, man, I want to just get you some margin.

Go get some income coming in right now from any old body. it doesn't matter but a quote 40 hour a week day job making the same thing you make a target you know that's not there's no there's no future in that so let's go figure out what we're going to be and go that direction you hang on christian will pick up we'll get you uh get you those books out and we'll start helping you and if you need some more help you call us back we're here to help you you're going to be fine you got the right spirit the right heart um but don't just throw your application in a pile of jobs that nobody wants but you'll take anyway because you're scared. That's not your best life. It's not your best destiny. You're

worth more than that. Thanks for calling in, Emily. You holler if you need some help. We're here for you. We think you're awesome. You're going to be okay. That puts this hour of the Ramsey show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace. And that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace for ice Jesus. Thank you.