The Ramsey Show - Financial Chaos Can Derail Your Future

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

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Music Music Music Music Music Music Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host Ken Coleman. Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author of the book, Paycheck to Purpose, is my co-host.

Thanks for joining us. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Marcus is in Oklahoma City. Hey Marcus, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey Dave, how are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? I'll just be quick and to the point. 2020-2021 I was working in a mortgage company. They closed their doors in 2022. I was making quite a bit. Now I'm a teacher. Didn't file my taxes for 2020 and 2021. Probably 80% of that was obviously commissioned. So I did, I know I need to file those now, obviously,

and I'm gonna owe quite a bit. I was just gonna see if I can maybe get some advice on how to go about doing that in the least harmful way. Ouch. Okay, here's the thing. Not paying taxes is not a criminal act. Not filing taxes is a criminal act. That's what's weird. We do not have a debtor's prison. They don't put people in jail for not paying their taxes, but they do put people in jail about $2,500 a year for failure to file. So that's the danger that you're in.

I'm more concerned about that than I am the payment plan. I don't think you're in trouble because 99% of the time that you're not some public figure, that you come and self-file. You catch up your filings. They're just all late You don't get into any criminal issues, but I want you to get it done now I don't want them to come find you okay. I want you to go to them like Immediately no later than the middle of January these documents need to be filed okay Yes, sir. You know that's the panic Then the second issue is how do we pay it? Well number one we've got to assess the damage and figure out from the actual

filings what you actually owe and then you know your worst-case scenario is you're selling some stuff and putting the KGB I mean the IRS on a payment plan. Okay. So, because I mean, if you were doing mortgage origination in 2020, you made some bank. Yes sir, yeah. Like what'd you make that year? Probably two, 250.

And you paid zero taxes? Yes sir. Did you save any? Yeah, yeah, I got about probably a hundred thousand saved. Oh good, okay. Because you're probably gonna have a hundred thousand our tax bill. Oh yeah. Okay. If you got two years of that you will. Yeah, easy. Yeah. So you're gonna give them what you got to limit it and then you're gonna work out the payments. What you've got to have is a real tax pro in your corner right now and if you'll go to ramsaysolutions.com

and click on the tax ELP for your area there in Oklahoma City, I know them, they're good people, they can sit down with you and help you first get the filings done and then secondly negotiate the payment plan and how much of this you got to throw at them to keep them off your bank account because we don't want to put in leans on everything after you file but also don't want them putting bracelets on you that connect because you didn't file so we need to get filed and and then we need to develop the how tough the path is that we've got to walk through do you own a home yes sir what's it worth about 500 what do you owe about 200 okay well and and what is your household income nowadays probably about 70 I have three jobs right

now so I'm a teacher I do some data entry at night and I do wait some tables on the weekends. You have any money other than the hundred? No. You have any money in retirement? You have money in retirement? I do. Okay. All right. I do not tell people to cash out retirement for to pay off debt I might to pay off the IRS to keep from selling your home you follow me? So that's what you've got to get into you've got to ascertain because let's just say this okay let's say it's a hundred and fifty and you throw a hundred down and you say okay we're gonna pay a twenty or we're gonna pay two thousand dollars a month for three years and we'll be out of debt that's okay but if it's a if it's 200 and you put a hundred

down and you're gonna be in debt for a decade you don't want that you need to you need to clean out something else the house or the retirement accounts and clean up the mess so the not filing and it's not the not filing they're not paying and they're not filing I hope it's not a ton more than the hundred. When you get there, it's gonna be something more than that. But you need to understand the size of the problem. The not knowing is a bigger stress inducer than knowing the details.

So you've got the cancer diagnosis, you just don't know what the treatment is yet. And you don't know whether it's terminal you know so that first thing they do is they scare you to death and you go around for about two months with our two weeks with no information and then they start going okay well here's the treatment plan oh you mean I'm not gonna die well that would have been handy information about a week ago you know and that's kind of what you're dealing with here is that same set of emotions so you know the get with the Tax Pro today

when you hang up open up RamseySolutions.com click on Tax Pro ELP at Oklahoma City and go sit down with them this week I don't give a crap if it's Christmas you know you need to give yourself a gift to get this monkey off your back. crap if it's Christmas. You know, you need to give yourself a gift to get this monkey off your back. Oh man, that's scary. Yeah, and I hope he has, he saved some money. I hope he also has some write-offs and records of that kind of stuff so that he can, you know, take us.

The better your records, the more you can limit this. Yes, that's exactly right. Write-offs and records. Tax Pro here is huge though. Do not try to figure this out on your own. No, and don't go ask the IRS what to do. Oh yeah. Good Lord. It's like asking a dog if it's hungry. You know, no, we don't do that. So, you know, where did you get your tax information? From the IRS. Oh my God, you're a fool.

You know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don't ask them. We don't ask the fox about the hen house. Hello. So yeah. Oh yeah, they're tasty. And by the way, don't ask them for grace either because they don't have any. This is get your tax pro to help you follow communication. You mean Grace Quill? I used to talk to Grace. Yeah, right. I used to talk to her weekly. She called me all the time.

It's like from Christmas Vacation. She died ten years ago. Yeah, they're just not going to be kind and a tax pro here is going to be your advocate and they know everything that they can do. They're worth it. So don't try to navigate this on your own. Yeah, and there's, and here's the last part of this. Okay. These commercials that are on cable TV.

Do you have $10,000 or more in tax debt? We can get it forgiven. We have ex-IRS agents working for us. Just give us five thousand dollars and we will promptly do nothing for the next twenty-four months. That's what that is. That's a complete freaking scam. There's a thing called the OIC, an offer in compromise that you can get your federal income taxes forgiven. About one percent of them are approved. You have to prove total paupership, meaning you don't have a house, you don't have a job, you don't have any potential income, and you

don't have any assets of any kind. And then they will forgive your debt after fooling with them for about two and a half years. Don't answer those stupid butt cable TV ads. Go get a tax pro and actually work a plan to get the mess cleaned up. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey you guys, I'm not a fan of the big banks and you probably already know which ones I mean. But I do like credit unions because they're non-profit organizations that focus on their members. And I'm proud to endorse Fair Winds Credit Union because they share the Ramsey mission of helping people get

out of debt and live generously. In fact, they design products to help keep you from going into debt in the first place. Fair Winds has been in business for over 75 years and they serve hundreds of thousands of members worldwide. You can feel secure because your deposits are federally insured by the NCUA up to $250,000. It's easy to join and Fairwinds partners with more than 5,000 credit union locations around the country so you can bank in person wherever you live. But if you prefer the online experience,

you can log on to Fairwinds and do anything you could do at a physical location. So go to fairwinds.org slash Ramsey to learn more and while you're there, look at the combined checking and savings account bundle they created just for Ramsey fans to help you take control of your finances that's fair winds FAIRWINDS.org slash Ramsey Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. O'Ri'mar is with us in Canada. Hey O'Ri'mar, how are you?

Good, how are you? Better than I deserve. How can we help? Well, I'm actually ecstatic to be on this phone call. I can't believe I'm talking to you guys but I'm calling from New Brunswick, Canada. I actually moved with my family and my two babies, three and four, from Toronto, escaping pretty much what was happening over there. A normal run down home was $2 million. We didn't want to get into a mortgage like that.

And because we had the freedom of remote jobs, we decided, well, let's move. We wanted a more conservative place as well. So it's been amazing living here, but we purchased a house, $400,000 last year. Uh, it has been a year and a half. Um, and I feel like I'm on baby step number zero. We are reading the book and we're doing everything we can, but we had very bad advice with our mortgage. We went on a variable rate last year and I just, I feel hopeless.

I don't know how to even get through this. So we've done what we can and we got the book from the church. Um, total money makeover. We've been reading it, but with two little ones, it's been tough. And I just I don't know how to deal and cope with I guess paying the mortgage when we initially budgeted for $1,600 and we ended up at a fixed rate of actually we fixed the rate last week and we ended up at $3,200. So you have a $3,200 mortgage.

And what is your income? Uh, so my husband makes $85,000 a year and I recently started, uh, I worked, uh, with the same company actually. And I'm making $33,990. Uh, I'm not on payroll, but I am, I've been with them for 10 months and they are willing to put me on payroll. It's just I haven't come to that yet. Is $33,990 an hour or $33,900 a year? No, $33,990 monthly plus $85,000 a year that my husband earns,

which is, I believe it's $4,900 a month. So we're roughly around $8,000 to almost $9,000. You're about $8,500 a month take on pay and you have a $3,200 mortgage, which leaves $5,000 to pay the rest of your bills. Why can you not do that? I know, right? I, I, we feel the same, but unfortunately, since we got our home last year, we had a, I don't know why we came up with the bright idea that we wanted to finish the

basement that we had in this house because we wanted to rent it out. We said, well well maybe let's do like a side income and have someone be downstairs. So is it finished or not? It is. Okay, is somebody living down there? Finish it. Yeah, finally. Okay, and how much are they paying you? $1,200. Okay, and so that's another $1,200 on the $8,500. Now, what other bills have you got other than the $3,200? What other debt payments have you got? Insurance, I on a home credit line. How much is the payment on that?

A lot. It's like $900. 1100 more maybe because we've really got the high. Okay. 1100. All right. So that's 42, 4,300. Okay. And what else? Yeah. 20,000 on a credit card, which I don't know how he even came to that. Okay Orimar, stop. Here's what's going on, okay? Your brain is scrambled eggs on this money stuff.

Because you're all over the place just to talk to you, and that's where all your stress is coming from. So the numbers you've given me, because you haven't thrown me any numbers here that don't work, you've got $9,700 a month coming into this house counting the $1,200 rent. Okay? The only numbers you've given me are $3,200 and $1,100 going out. So when you just start... No, no, no, no, no, no, my turn. Just at the top of the page, write $9,700 and then write minus $3,200 minus $1,100, minus a little for insurance, minus some electricity and food, and then you're going to go, hey, where's all my dad gum money going? Because that's where I'm going right now. I can't

figure out why you're stressed out about this. You should have plenty of money so what that tells me is is you guys are very disorganized you're very chaotic it's chaotic talking to you I'm not being mean to you but that's the that's what's happening it's the stress is in the air I can feel it and honey you got to get this you guys got to get if you'll if when you push this down on the paper and transfer this financial stress into actual arithmetic, the stress will start to dissipate. Because you are not out of control here, unless you've left out entire segments in this conversation, which is possible. But you've got, there's something about writing it down that makes it come alive and makes

it get under control. So Orimar, it's kind of like, remember that time back in high school, Ken, when you have a problem, or you might do it as an adult, and you sit down with your friend who's going to help you with the problem and you tell them the whole problem, and by the time you actually put it into cogent words, you know the answer and it's not a problem anymore. Your friend doesn't have to say anything. They just got to look at you like you're an idiot, right? Or worse than that, you write it down. If you write yourself a report on what's going on, by the time your brain goes from jumble to verbal and then one more step from verbal to written, you have processed this information very thoroughly and the answer oftentimes will appear right in front of you. You're on the other end of that spectrum right now, Orimar, so you

guys need a budget. That's what you need. And your time is not being managed well, your kids are overrunning you, things are... I bet your house is a mess. And so, you know, the chaos is in the air. And when you get things orderly and straightened up, the calendar straight, the budget is straight, you're gonna get on top of this and you're gonna be able to run so fast, because you're really doing better than it feels like you're doing to you. Your numbers are not nearly as bad as your emotions are telling you they are.

Yeah, what I heard is someone who's being reactive instead of proactive. And the power in writing it down and creating this budget, Omar, what Dave's telling you is right. When you look at, just that exercise where he said, all right, let's start with what's coming in. You guys have got to write down what's going out. And when you begin to get intentional,

proactive versus reactive, you guys are letting every day come at you and I don't think you have a plan at all. And it's just overwhelming. Your emotions are managing this. Your emotions are managing this, not your logic. That's right. So get your critical thinking skills up on top of it.

Open up an Every Dollar app, get that thing going. You've got a total money makeover book, you and your husband sit down, turn the TV off, put the kids to bed, tell them to stay in bed. And we're gonna sit here and we're to read this book and we're going to freaking do these steps exactly. We're going to get these forms out of the back of the book even. I don't care if you do it longhand with a yellow pad, but when you get organized, you

will feel more in control. And the reason you feel that way is because you are more in control and it changes everything. Folks, when you jump on your EveryDollar app and do your budget for the first time, you say, this is how much is coming in and here's where I know it's going. And then there's this big pile of money left over. You're gonna go, what am I doing?

I'm spending like I'm in Congress. What am I doing? You're gonna have that moment where you feel like you got a raise. It's true. Every dollar allows you to see where you are, and then you can start making changes. But the problem is when you don't know where you are, and what we felt in her was this, I just

don't know where any of it's going, and I don't know, and I don't know. And here's what we know about just human psychology, when the scariest thing is the unknown. And so every dollar allows me to actually for the first time go, oh, that's where I'm spending money. Bad news is not nearly as scary as unknown. That is so true. The human brain reacts more aggressively and positively towards bad news than it does the unknown. You might have cancer.

It's going to be three weeks before you tell you. That's three weeks of hell. Yeah. And then they say, you got stage three, bring on the chemo. You're like, at least I know what it is. The devil I know, let's fight it. Here we go, game on.

But the unknown will drive you bananas. This is the Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey, it's that time of year, it's starting to get a little bit colder, it's getting a little bit dark earlier, and sometimes if you're like me, you just want to stay inside and get cozy. And for me, my perfect cozy night is me and all of my family piled under blankets, watching a movie, sitting by the fire, maybe even reading a book.

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to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Melissa is with us in Rochester, New York. Hi Melissa, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hi, good afternoon sir. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Sure, what's up? Sure sir, the reason why I'm calling in is because I'm having a couple of issues right now. I currently own the home that I live in. It is completely paid off.

However, that home is actually my mom's home. What was your mom's home? It's now yours. Yes, it was my mom's home. It is in my name now. It is paid off. However, it was originally my mom's home. She lost it. And so I helped her save the home and now it's in my name out of fear that she'll lose it again. However, sir, um, my mom has made infrastructure changes to the property, um, without, this was before I even had the home.

She had made infrastructure changes and she didn't properly permit the house. So she's gone now a couple of years with having rooms that she created into the house that weren't permitted. And so now I'm in fear that I may be facing any type of legal issues or ramifications that can come out of a house being in my name and her doing things to the home before they were even in my name. And so now I'm trying to just save myself any issues and they come out of all of this and I want to just Undeed myself indeed my mom back on the property and just give her the property to take care of

How old is your mom my mom is seven years old, okay, what did she do to the house? She refinanced it no about the structural issues. What did she change? She added bedrooms to the property. So she did an addition. Yes. It changed the square footage of the house. Are they not within code? Well no, if you didn't permit you, you changed the square. She changed the footprint, right? Yes. So the actual outside she changed the footprint, right? Yes. So the actual outside structure of the home is the same. It was never changed. But what she did was she built up additional walls, creating bedrooms. Inside, inside the original footprint.

Inside the original footprint, correct? Yeah, that's why I'm asking. Well, they have no way of knowing what happened there. Right. Correct. So no, you don't have any liability. Nothing to worry about. There's nothing to worry about. There's nothing to worry about. There's nothing to worry about. Right. Nothing to worry about.

That's why I asked the code question. Did she rewire the house without getting an electrical permit? No. Did she replumb the house without getting a plumbing permit? Yes. Completely replumbed the whole house? Well she added a bathroom. She added one bathroom. Yeah. Okay. All right. Is it done? Is the construction done of reasonable quality? Yes, it is. I don't think you got a thing to worry about. Nothing at all.

I think you got a thing to worry about. It would have been better to permit it, but lots of people do that kind of stuff. I mean, that's a fairly normal practice. Yeah. Some, some municipalities are much more strict than others. I can't tell you that Rochester, New York is not like the toughest in the world or something. I don't know that. But in general, most people, it's inside the footprint. She didn't illegally do a trade other than adding a bath I

I really truly I don't think you get a thing to worry about and I wouldn't give her the house back she's gonna borrow against it well and here's what's gonna happen is she's gonna screw it up then she's gonna try and leave it to you and she dies and you got the message you're gonna get it back this thing's a boomerang yes and now my one fear right now is so the conditions of the house the roof needs to be replaced that's about $20,000 the driveway needs to be replaced fencing needs to be added because she hasn't is she living in it or are you we're both living in it right now what do you make a year? Right now I'm not working. I

decided to put myself back into school and I just graduated two months ago. How do you people eat? Where's the money? Well I have savings that I use up right now. I only have about 2,000 savings left. And you have a paid for houses all run down? Come again sir. It's you have a paid for house but it's all run down. Yes it's run down. And what are you getting ready to do for a career now? I'm getting ready to go into public safety law enforcement to be specific. And you'll be making what? I'll be making approximately sixty thousand dollars a year.

Okay. Well, I would not date it back to her. I would either sell it to an investor as is and you guys go about your merry way or I would sit there with a plan to gradually do the repairs that need to be done out of cash from your new job. Part of this is you want to get rid of the of all the negative things that your mom represents by getting rid of this house. Yes sir, because right now she rents out

that's where some of the income is coming in. She did additional bedrooms, she rents out the bedrooms and so that income she claims it all because that's technically her retirement since she doesn't work. I'm sorry the house is yours. How does she rent out your house and she collects the rent? Y'all are weird. Yes. It's only because it's all because the house was originally mine. I did save it from her. I didn't technically have any financial investment in it. How did you save it then?

I was able to, when she short-sell the house, I was able to purchase it for about $40,000. That's called a financial investment. Yes, and she has since then refunded me that money. Okay. You don't have boundaries. You know, I think you might be right, Melissa. I actually, I'm going to change my mind right here in the middle of this call. I think you deed it to her and let her have it and you go have a life. And when she passes away, you auction it off. Don't you ever move in it. Okay. And when she passes away you auction it off. Don't you ever move in it?

Okay, I think this house and all the chaos that occurs around your mother in this house Is all a huge negative spot for you and a clean fresh start in criminal justice system is a great thing for you Clean no chaos simple little one-bedroom apartment and you build up some cash again and you've come out even she gave you the money back that you used to save the short sale but you can just push all of this chaotic weirdness over to the side and not have to worry about it anymore and just I would yeah I would talk to a title company and I'd deed it out of your name into hers and you go move but But only if there's a clean break there. Yeah you have to you have to stay away. You rent your own place. You have to have your life

completely separate, completely clean, all the chaos stays over there on her side of the fence. Don't help with the roof. Anything around this mom figure is chaotic. I can smell it in the air. She's a character. Mom's a character and then you're sitting there trying to be a normal person in the middle of this character and that's why I called y'all weird. So I couldn't figure out how you own the house and she's collecting the rent but now I'm starting to understand. So yeah I think it is a good idea. Let's just get away from it but not because of the remodeling, because of the chaos around

your mom and this is never going to be, it's always going to be the weird part of your life until you give it a little bit of distance and a little bit of a boundary. All right, Casey's in St. Petersburg, Florida. Hi Casey, what's up? Hi, thank you for taking my call. Sure, how can I help? So I've just been listening to your show for about a month now and I understand a little bit about the baby steps and I actually just signed up for the financial peace course through my church. Wow, great.

To get started on that. Yeah. So my situation is that I am 41, single. I have $183,000 in student loan debt. You a doctor or a lawyer? Nurse practitioner. Oh, good. That's even better, okay.

So you're making what, 110? I'm making 135. 135, great, I love it. What other debts have you got? I have 8,000 in private student loan debt. Okay. 5,000 in a parent plus loan for my daughter. And I have, this is the really hard part to even say out loud, is I have $19,000 in credit

card debt from medical bills and other things. Okay. What we're going to do is just do what we do in Financial Peace University. You're gonna live on beans and rice, rice and beans. You make a wonderful income and as a nurse practitioner you can also pick up some side gigs called ER on the weekends and it pays really well. I want you working all the time. I want you spending no money, no restaurants, no eating out, no vacations, no life. And now we're making 150, 160.

We're gonna live on about 40, and we're gonna throw 100 at the student loan debt. And you're gonna be 100% debt free in around two years. But it's gonna be two years of hell, so get ready. It'll be worth it though, cause you'll be free. That's exactly how you're gonna attack this, with great focused intensity. Good question. I'm proud of you. Get at it. Holler if you need some more help.

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1749 Mallory Lane, Sweet 100 Brentwood, Tennessee 37027 Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us Hey guys, if you've been listening to show and you're enjoying it we could use your help Literally, I mean really we need your help. It changes everything if you will subscribe on YouTube or follow or whatever the method is on whatever podcast platform you're on or just tell people about the radio station you're listening to. Whatever it is let people

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stadium to tell you we're here like something or something like that. Excuse me, I got allergies, but the but yeah, you don't want to do that. And so we're not going to do that. We're not like that. So but you guys are our biggest champions to help us move this thing forward. We need to create a crusade in America and have a Renaissance in the art of living well, having the right career, the right mental health, the right ways of handling your money. I mean we

the people can do better. We don't need someone else to tell us how, but you hey we'll leave the charge if you'll help us it's that simple Kara is with us in Indianapolis hi Kara how are you I'm doing well how about yourself better than I deserve how can we help I currently have a job that works great for my family it's a good income I'm just not passionate about it I've only been there about four months and historically I stay with my job a long time. I was just offered my dream job this morning and I am nervous about discussing that transition with my current employer because I haven't been there very long. So how do I go about that?

Well first of all, congratulations on getting offered your dream job. That's not just cruise past that. How did that come about? Well, I have a history in cardiothoracic surgical ICU nursing. And I'm now a nurse practitioner. And so I heard about the opening with the surgeon that I used to work with through a friend

and I reached out and they were really excited that I reached out and what will you be making at the new job? 120. And what do you make now? 122. Okay. Is there, but I'm guessing there's room for growth here with this new job? Yeah, yeah. Every year they're pretty consistent with making sure that they compensate you well. Yeah, okay. Well, first of all, congratulations. So my answer to this is always the same, and it's really simple. I want you to put yourself in your boss's position. And I want you to, in your mind, you just kind of role play that out. How would you want you to come say, hey, listen, I've only been here four months, but I got a past relationship with this surgeon, an opportunity was there, I reached out, it's my dream gig. I'm sorry to put you in this lurch and do this at this point, four months in,

but this is an opportunity that I have to take. I mean, that's your reasoning. You don't have to explain that away. But how would you say that in a way that is humble, filled with gratitude, certainly sensitive to the fact that, hey, you're leaving only four months in, but you don't owe them a certain amount of time. What you owe them is your best. And I don't think you'd ever be able to give them your best if this if you turn this opportunity down.

And so if you have that mindset, how would you want someone to handle it with you? That's the best way to go. Cause I know you're a person of character and a person of class. Did they pay you anything or pay moving expenses or a signing bonus or anything when you took this current job? No, it's a better schedule for my family. And, and the one you're in today. Oh

what we're seeing is are there any strings attached? The four-month old job do you have anything you owe them because they paid for you to move or they gave you a signing bonus and now you're gonna take the signing bonus and run? Nope. Okay, all right so you took a job, didn't cost them anything and okay, yeah. I'm with Ken, I think you just be sensitive to how would you want to be treated if you were them. If I'm them, I'm disappointed, but this great lady is gonna go, she got something that she likes better, she's gonna go do it, there's not a lot I can do about it, so I'm going to be classy about it and say, well,

I certainly understand. Um, you're going to, are we going to do a two week notice or what are we going to do here? And, um, you know, just be honorable and kind and tell the truth and just be, you know, I think you say out loud, I'm sorry. I did not take this job intending to do this. I, this fell in my lap and it's something I've always wanted to do, I'm sorry. I did not take this job intending to do this. This fell in my lap and it's something I've always wanted to do and I'm going to take it. But I do feel bad about the way this worked out and I'm sorry. Yeah, I do. Okay. I just wanted to, was there a more professional way to say that? But that sounds compassionate and professional.

Sometimes profession gets in the way of people stuff and and I love the way Dave said that I think he gave you a great perspective From the leaders perspective just be a good person and you are good person. So why you called? There's a sense of guilt I get this call a lot on the Ken Coleman show Dave and people feel guilty because they're good people But if you're not doing anything ethically wrong And you're not doing anything Illegal then guilt shouldn't enter the equation. So then it'd be a good person. You do.

You understand as a human that has good relational skills that you've greatly inconvenienced someone and actually cost them money. That is correct. Because you, you know, when we put somebody on at Ramsey, it costs us quite a bit of money to onboard somebody. Yeah. You know, and then,

and then replace it with more money. 90 days later, they're gone. It's a, it's a net loss for us. That's correct. But I also don't want them to stay here if they have their dream job. That's right. And further down the line though, I don't wanna be as an employer used.

You know, I'm gonna take this job and then keep looking. Correct. And all over the place. If I can get 10 cents more, I'm gonna jump. Now that is a lack in ethics. I agree. Job hoppers are very different than... That's not hopping. That's just speculating. That's wrong, ethically. But that's not what carers do.

No, no, no, no. Good job. Oakley's with us in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Oakley. Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, thank you so much Dave for having me on, I appreciate you guys. Sure, how can we help? Hey, so I just wanted some insight and wisdom from you guys on how a young couple like my wife and I could best attack the debt that we have,

become debt free with the situation that we're in, and ultimately pay off, again, everything that we have become debt free with a situation that we're in and ultimately pay off again everything that we have. How much debt do you have not counting your house? About a little under $50,000. Okay and what do you guys make? Collectively about $115,000-$120,000. Okay and so if you lived on 70 and made 120, that'd be 50 not counting taxes, you'd be out of debt in a year, you follow me? Yep.

We gotta count taxes so you're not gonna make it in a year. But that's the math. Yeah. That's the math. You got a good size shovel and a medium sized hole, this is very doable. Now what do we do? We get on a written budget on EveryDollar

and go to EveryDollar.com and sign up for slash budgeting and sign up for one of our free webinars on how to use the budgeting app to get things under control. When you and your wife sit down, you stop all investing, you take any money you've got that's not in retirement and you throw it at this debt. We're going to list the debts smallest to largest. We're going to attack them with a great intensity, a great vengeance. Like paint yourself blue and wear a kilt, right? I mean you're getting after it.

You know what I'm saying? And so you knock it in the head, you knock it in the head, you knock it in the head. We're not going on vacation, we're not eating out, we're going to take our lifestyle down to scorched earth and we're going to live on less than 70,000 so we can pay off 50 with a 120 income in around a year. And you can do that. What's your smallest debt? It would be my, actually it would be my student loans, about five grand. Okay, yeah, and so you're going to have that done in a little over a month. Boom, one done.

And you just keep doing it, just keep doing it, keep hitting it. Keep hitting it. Keep hitting it. Keep hitting it. And that's the process. So jump on everydollar.com slash budgeting and sign up for Rachel Cruz, Jay D'Warshaw, or George Campbell doing a webinar for free and get yourself into that Every Dollar app and get this thing going. You can do this. It's called the Death Snowball. List them smallest to largest and attack them in that order. Hey everybody, listen to this. Helix, who makes the best mattresses on planet Earth, actually throughout the universe, they've extended their Cyber Monday savings. They've extended their Cyber Monday savings. Listen, I've spent my whole life sleeping on mattresses, ones that were not great, and sleeping on a Helix mattress has transformed my rest.

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Hey, Josh, welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hey, Dave, thank you so much for taking my call. I just wanted to take a second and I appreciate all that you do. You've truly changed my life over the last few years and I just want to take a second to say thank you. Sure, what's up? Awesome, my question is how should I feel about a prenup? I know your stance on prenups and I know kind of, you know, extreme circumstances and I know kind of, um, you know, extreme circumstances. And I believe kind of like my circumstance is kind of

extreme on both ends. So a little bit about my background. I am currently 28. I followed the baby steps through and through currently on three B I make about 300,000 a year. And, uh, that's divided up into about 100K in retirement, 100K for a down payment, and, you know, 25 to 35,000 and just a bank account, checking account for an emergency fund. So my question, so I'm getting married in June to my wonderful fiance. Um, and her family is extremely wealthy. And although I do not, and her, her parents and grandparents are extremely wealthy. So, uh, they are, apparently I'm, I'm supposed to be signing a prenup, um,

obviously before the marriage and kind of, we're going to go over that. And my question to you is how should I feel about that as well as you know what to look for in a prenup like what I don't I don't necessarily know what questions to ask my lawyer and just one last thing is my income could be going from you know to 400 500 plus over the next two to three years annually so, that would be my question. Yeah. Well, how old is your fiance? She is, I am 28. She is 25. Does she have any money? No. And you didn't ask her for a prenup? I have not. So the prenup was for the potential inheritance?

The prenup is for the potential inheritance. I have not had a sit-down discussion with it. When did the prenup discussion come up? After you were engaged? It was after we were engaged. Yes, but I kind of had an idea like I mean they are I don't know the specifics on their net worth, but they are Extremely extremely wealthy. Yeah, okay, so All right, I you know the only way I know how to answer a question is what would I do if I woke up in your? shoes, okay so When my children were married my net worth was in excess of $100 million already

at that point, and none of them signed a prenup. And we didn't ask them to. None of my in-laws signed a prenup, and we didn't ask them to. Now I have my estate plan set up to where certain things are controlled only by Ramsey Blood and trusts, so you can't get to them in the event of a divorce. Thing number one. Thing number two, I'm just not that guy, so I'm not worried about it. This is God's money. I'm managing it. I figure he can take care of it. I understand their concern. it. I understand their concern if you were, you know, if you're making 30,000 bucks a year or something, it would be more of a concern, but it's, you know,

it's frankly, it's a little bothersome if I'm in your shoes. Not enough to cancel the whole thing, but it's troubling that these people, obviously they want to protect what they built and make sure it goes to their kids. Let me ask you, here's another thing I would want to find out and I don't know. In most states, the divorce stuff we've been involved in on the financial side an amount of inheritance

generally in the event of a divorce goes to the person that inherited the money they don't split it in most states so if you inherit your mama's house and you get a divorce you get your mama's house you don't split it with your ex in most states okay now I don't know Missouri law and I'm not a lawyer. But I've experienced that in, you know, being called in in the middle of divorce situations where we're helping negotiate and all that. I've experienced that to be the facts that the judge or the statutes award that that way. So I would learn about that in Missouri. Number one,

they may have that protection built into the law is what I'm saying. And then you've just got to decide how much you care about this issue because I don't think... and what this issue means, what does it mean to your relationship, what does it mean to the family you are marrying because you're marrying her and her family. And so, you know, it's really low class that this came up after you made a contract to get married they bring up oh but by the way after you've done a contract to get married called getting engaged we're gonna add

something to the terms of the contract after you've already signed it that's low-class I'm curious Josh, what does your fiance think? How does she feel about this? Is she completely in line with the parents or does it make her feel weird? What's going on here? To be honest, I mean she's you know, she's the oldest of four daughters total and they're awesome families, super down-to-earth people but they you know they've not you know never really had to work or you know you're not answering my question and you're being really nice because you're a classy dude I'm going

somewhere with this how does she feel about it when it came up what was her comment on this deal she I mean she understands she understands it I mean she what I was getting at is she just doesn't really have, like, she doesn't know. So she's okay with it. My point is it wasn't a head tilt or a red flag or yellow flag. It was just like, oh, okay. Is that what I'm hearing? She does what she's told. Exactly. Okay. That helps. She listens to her parents. Yeah, she listens to her parents. Well, that makes this relationally a little bit more difficult. Had she had the same feeling, the yucky feeling you had, I assume you have a yucky feeling about it? Or am I making the wrong assumption?

Well, I just like go back to what you guys feel about prenups and it is an extreme situation, but like I don't, you know. It doesn't feel good. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. Like do I need to do anything on my end? What else is going to come up after you're married that they tell her what to do? Well, the one other thing was, exactly, yeah, the one other thing is apparently they're,

so the family are in development, so they're big into real estate and they build houses and have a lot of land. Another thing is apparently they're gonna be building us a house and putting it in a trust to where we don't have a payment. Apparently. Yeah this has all been decided. Apparently? Wait a minute this is my freaking house there's no apparently. I'm involved in the decision. I think this ought to be premarital counseling. I bring it up with your Flares now. I think the two of you need to sit down with a pre marriage counseling and you're getting married in June This is um, this family has

Problems with leaving and cleaving. Yeah, that's right. This is the Ramsey show You know I love when I get to talk about this each year during the holidays. As in years past, this December, Xander is donating 25% of all ID theft protection sales to Team Rubicon, an amazing veteran-led disaster relief organization that brings assistance across the country after major disasters and storms. These guys do incredible work on the ground helping those in immediate need and have a

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bases covered. To check it out, go to ramsysolutions.com slash checkup. That's ramsysolutions.com slash checkup. Thanks for joining us America. Ken Coleman Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Open phones at triple 8 8 2 5 5 2 2 5. George is in Sarasota Florida. Hi George welcome to the Ramsey Show. Hello gentlemen thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So, um, moved with my family to Florida two years ago, left my business in Washington state and it's been there in Tacoma, Washington for about five years. And I, in the last couple of years, trying to, um, you know, work remotely, managing the

business. It was a struggle. Uh, we bought a piece of property here. We're planning to build and, uh, you know, a month ago, the business burned down basically completely. And now I'm trying to figure out what to do next. Uh, as far as, um, maybe, you know, we saved up about $120,000 plus the land is worth about a hundred. And we are thinking either to start something new, like the business that I was doing there, which is auto wrecking,

um, on the smaller scale, or for me to just get a job being more stable sell the land and buy a house which is what my wife wants us to do and we have three little kids five three and eight months old I assume you had good insurance I had no insurance business was struggling and yeah. So you just lost it for me to pay. I lost it. Yeah. Pretty much. Some stuff survived. I would say like 90% was lost. So, so what's the land worth? Because you owned the real estate, right?

I did not own the real estate. It was, um, my landlord had the insurance for the building. So, but the land I purchased here, we were planning to build on, it's worth about a hundred thousand and we have 120,000 in savings. Yes. Okay. What would you do right now if you could just snap your fingers with the skill set you have knowing your industry that

would pay you the most? What would that be? There are a couple options. I have maybe gone into consulting for a company, out of company, or I honestly like work for myself my whole life, 36. And I don't know. So do you have trade skills? I do have trade skills. What are those? I do have trade skills. I used to work in a body shop as a tech, as a repairing cars. And I can get back into that.

What was the actual business? You said it was auto wrecking? Yes. What's that mean? So that's recycling. A junkyard? It's like a junkyard. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I was doing more of like indoor auto-wrecking which was parting cars out, selling used auto parts. Okay. So you would buy a total car, part it out, sell off the scrap, and sell off the parts? Correct. Indoors. And when you were in Tacoma and you all live there and the business was flourishing what did you make what was your best year profit taxable profit about a hundred fifty okay alright um what is it what does it take to set that up well so you lost up there you lost tools and some inventory in the fire.

What's it take to set the business up and get it running, not counting the land and the building? It would take some tools, some equipment. Yeah, like 50 grand, 40 grand? Like probably around there yeah. Yeah okay what I would do if I were in your shoes is I would take some side gig hustles, hustle and grind to make a living and I would go rent a warehouse somewhere and I would would sell your land now if you sell the land you got 220,000 bucks right correct okay and we take 50 out of that and now

now I've got a hundred and seventy to put down on a house okay okay and I'm gonna start the business in a rental property, not owned a piece of real estate. This time I'm going to put insurance on it. And you know how to make $150,000 a year parking out cars on the inside. Inside of a warehouse, right? Yes. And you can get to doing, you can turn a profit within 90 days of doing that, can't you? Yeah. Yeah. I figured you could. Because that's a quick turn business. You have the access to the supply of the totaled vehicles and do you have a distribution for the parts?

Part them out? You know how to get them sold right quick? Because you weren't doing that on a local basis, you're doing that on a national basis. National and international, yeah, we're selling them. Yeah, the parting parting out is a it's an internet function right? Yes, correct. Yeah, okay. This is not like some good old boy in Sarasota wanders in and buys a transmission from you. You're parting this sucker out, you're sending a every little piece all over the dead-gum world out of this thing and you know exactly what them you know that you know the cars in

your gut without even asking that have parts that are in high demand so you know what to buy. That's correct. Yeah, because the parts on that particular vehicle will sell, the parts on the other vehicle won't sell so I don't screw with it, right? That's 100%. Yeah, you got, this is his skills.

It is, the issue that I wanna address real quick is the relationship issue your wife wants you to get us What she's calling a stable job that means a salary and so you've got a plate. You've got to think through that What is her concern? What's her big concern because I agree with Dave you can absolutely do that I would be working in some trades and and I'd ease into it a little bit based on what's happened, but I want to know what she's so worried about. She's worried about me being home and having less stress because I had to leave. Well, we decided to leave to Florida and I had to work leave to florida and i had to work from home why did you move to florida it was uh just something we wanted to do like bullcrap why did you move to florida

okay so there is a little bit of politics my it's closer to my wife's family okay and uh better for our kids there you go okay that's fair yeah that's a good that's a good answer. Yeah. All right. Now, yes, so I'm with Ken. You know, you can start that you can do the parting out on the side at first until you get it up and running, but you can make more doing this than you can any trade job or any side hustle. Agreed? Yes. This is the way you make your family the most money is reopen this business and run it. But don't get in the real estate business, be in the

part business. Rent the dad gum warehouse from somebody. Let them deal with the real estate like you did before. This time carry insurance on your stuff for God sakes. But other than that, yeah, and so you can drop 50K there you can set a hundred and seventy aside for a house start talking about when we're Going to buy the house Actually, the truth is that you may want to rent for two years and establish a really good income as a self-employed person to qualify For a decent mortgage out of this particular business But you're not you know you got to get that business really rocking for two years To be able to use that money

To qualify for the mortgage because you're gonna have two years of self-employed income to prove it out Otherwise, you're gonna be making 60 or 80 doing a trade and that's the base of the house you're gonna buy So if I'm you guys if I can get my wife on board, I'm gonna say let's get a rental and have a two-year plan I'm gonna work my tail end off We're gonna get this to get this business up and running and then I'm going to quit the side job and run the business full time. I'm going to come home at 5 o'clock and I'm going to hire staff and people working for me so I don't have to be gone all the time. We run a business during a normal business hours and we grow it and we're going to make

250 because we're going to staff up and we're going to 250 because we're gonna staff up and we're gonna run, you know, hire some marketing people, some tech people, as well as some people to do the actual wrench turning and let's get this thing up and going and three years from now you ought to be making serious money. That's, that and buy a house with 170 down or 150 down, keep 20 as your emergency fund. But yeah, you're, you know, considering you had no insurance and considering you didn't have a good plan before, you've got a know, considering you had no insurance and considering you didn't have a good plan before, you've got a lot of good options in front of you.

He really does. In great financial shape, minus the insurance issue. Yep, exactly. And if you'd have the insurance, you'd have another 50 ahead or whatever it is or more. Yeah, that's, that's, phew. Lesson learned. Lesson learned. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey guys, George Camel here. Let's be real. If I had a dollar for every time Ramsey Solutions gave away free money, I'd probably be rich enough to give out my own cash prizes.

And here's another one for you. We're giving away $20,000 at the Take Control of Your Money livestream on January 23rd. I don't know about you, but I'm definitely signing up for this event. Plus, my friends Dave Ramsey, Jade Warshaw, and Rachel Cruz will be there too. We'll be talking about how you can make real progress on your money goals. Maybe you're wanting to knock out some debt.

Maybe you're ready to start saving for a house. Maybe you want to build for the future. Or maybe you just want to stop cringing every time you need to buy eggs. This livestream is for you. It's your time to ask us whatever you want about money. It'll be kind of like a New Year's party, money pep talk and a live Q&A all rolled into one amazing event. Plus, if we're lucky, a little comedy on the side.

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Open phones at 888-825-5225. Ben then is in new york i've been welcome to the ramsey show higher you don't great man what's up uh... i'm currently living with my parents i'm twenty nine uh... my containing for several years now and i'm trying to figure out if i am ready to uh... by house in the fighting for two you know get my own place at this point. Okay, how much do you have saved? 100k. Okay. What keeps you from leaving there and buying a house? Well, I was mostly just trying to reach a certain, I was trying to reach that goal of 100k.

Well, I was mostly just trying to reach a certain, I was trying to reach that goal of a hundred hundred K say, you got a hundred K, you got a hundred K. I mean, common sense tells me you could go buy a house in Albany with a hundred K. You're 29 years old. How much do you make? About 70 75. Cool. All right. I would definitely do it. Like this week you think you think that's a good idea? Cause I didn't want to rent with the thing. I didn't want to be throwing out money. Dude, impulsive is not on your list of things to do.

We don't have to worry about you being impulsive. You're 29, you live at home. You're not impulsive. Time to go. Yes. Go get you a house. Get you a life. Yeah, for sure. No, I like it. I love it, man. How much do you make again? 70. What do you do? 70. I work in accounting. Okay. You are risk-averse, aren't you? Man, you're just... Hey, um... It's time, man. Go out in the sun. See the sunshine.

You are a numbers dude. I love you nerd I'm a numbers nerd too man so I'm right there with you Ben you've been crunching numbers and crunching numbers and crunching numbers and the problem with those numbers nerds is and you're you're one-on-one so I'm owning it with you we can get paralysis of the analysis and you have a bad case sure get a house get a life. Go, go, go do something. Go have some fun, man. Go, you know, and tell your mama you love her and you'll see her in five months. I mean, she's going to be glad to get rid of you, I promise. I don't think she is, actually. Well, I think that's part of the problem. He's an easy guy to live with. He's not a problem. He's not

like he's having parties in the basement or something. We're seeing more and more of this and I'm not picking on Ben, but I do want to say this. Ben, go buy a house. There's two things that are going on. Number one, he's got the analysis paralysis situation, but he also, along with the fear of change, is how comfortable he is at mom's house. And that can just keep you, you, cause you can justify staying by using the numbers. And I think it got to be realistic. How much of this is, I'm just afraid to kind of go out and start adulting. That wasn't even a term 10 years ago. And I hate saying it.

I'm a little embarrassed that I even uttered it, but I mean, it's time for a lot of great callback. A great callback. But yeah, I just think we got too many young 20-somethings that are just terrified of change. And we got to call that out. No, let me just tell you. When you're out there and on the wire and there's no net, it is terrifying. It's also exhilarating. It's also what makes you a man or makes you a woman, my son. Yeah. So yeah. Hey, you know, yes, Ben, you should go buy a house. And we're not picking on you, but you did open a can of worms.

So we'll deal with it for a second. Here's the thing. Moms and dads, you're not doing your kiddos favors when you leave them in the nest too long. A eagle that stays in the nest too long, a eagle that stays in the nest too long becomes known as a turkey and Ben, I didn't just call you a turkey. I'm talking about a concept here. Okay.

So Ben, you're, you're free from this. You w we love you. We're happy for you. Glad you got a hundred K you need to buy a house in the next month and you need to move immediately for your sake. And it's good. It's good. You know, we're there but so

our oldest when she came out of school easy kid oh yeah Denise to this day she's just a pleasant easy person and and she moved back to our she's the only one that moved back to our house after college and she was waiting on a roommate situation to develop so she could go get the first rental property, right? And so she was living there for about two months and we said, okay, that's probably enough. And she's like, what? I'm like, you know, you got it.

You got to get this done because not because we don't like you. She was not in our way. She's like Ben. She could have lived there and we wouldn't have noticed. She was not in our way. She's like bent. She could have lived there and we wouldn't have noticed. She'd been there until she was 29. We wouldn't have noticed. But we're like, no, you are missing out on life when you're 22, 23, 25 years old and you live in your mom's basement. You're missing out on life. And so you need to go be somebody. And it breaks our heart because we love you. We like having you around, but it's not about us.

It's about you and your development as a person. Your emotional, your psychological, your spiritual development, your financial development. You become a different person when you buy your own eggs and pay your own light bill and fold your own clothes. Or don't, but they're your clothes. Yeah. And that just changes.

There's a little thing happens there a little different thing Again Ben for God's sakes. We're not picking on you. Okay, we're not you called up your nice young man We appreciate you none of this is aimed at you But I'm just telling you folks moms and dads you are stunting their growth hundred percent Reminds me that movie with Matthew McConaughey failure to launch horrible movie I don't know I think my Matthew Matthew great rom-com. Matthew's done some really good work in his life

and that is not on the list. This is exciting folks, Dave Ramsey with a strong opinion on a rom-com. I never thought I'd see the day. This is great. Well, I mean, come on, if your co-star is Terry Bradshaw, I'm just saying. You're right, the quality of the script writing was low,

I'll give you that. But when Stacey wants to see it, I say okay. Yeah, well yeah, there is that. I'm blaming it on her. Yeah, I would. I'm blaming it on you. But we're all right. Joe is in Louisville, Kentucky. Hi, Joe. What's up? Hi, thanks for having me guys. How are you? Better than we deserve. How can we help? Good. So just quick background. Now last year I had, I left the job that I was at for about 15 years. Since then I've been struggling to, you know, find a job to make what I need to make to pay the bills.

And I'm primarily using job boards and they just seem to not be going anywhere. That's horrible. Yeah. resources out there, I guess. What were you making? I was making about $130,000 a year. Doing what? It was commissioned, so it kind of went up and down. Sales and management. Okay, and why did you walk out the door

without having anything to go to? Well, they had a new ownership come through and one of the first changes they made was pay for the regional managers so I ended up with on the pace for about 70k after they took over. Okay so they cut your pay in half and you said you should stick it. Okay I got that. Yeah. So have you been working? Yeah, I've been working. I'm currently making right now about 55k a year. So do you know how to sell? Yes, I can sell. What were you selling before when you're making 130? It's furniture. Wholesale or to customers? I mean, or to consumers?

To customers. I'm sorry? Yeah, to customers. So, retail to customers. Okay, I gotcha. Wow. I gotta tell ya, my mom sold furniture, was a manager of a large furniture chain for 35 years, and if you can make that kind of money in furniture, those margins aren't that high.

You've got a lot of options in front of you right now, a lot, and you've gotta stop job boarding, and you've gotta start having coffee with people that you know, civic clubs, churches, you know people, and look, you can sell anything. You're not a guy who's stuck in an industry. In other words, you aren't just effective in the furniture industry. You know a product, you know a service,

not only can you sell it, Joe product, you know a service, not only can you sell it Joe, but you led a team of people. Medical device sales you can make two and a quarter. Easy, easy. So I've looked at some medical like sales jobs, I just feel like you know I don't feel like it's you know I'm qualified I guess for it. Do you know, I'm qualified, I guess, for it. Do you just apply anyways? Yes. There aren't doctors making the sales.

There are sales people making sales to doctors. Yeah. I got a friend who's a former college football player. I'm not knocking football players. He's advising surgeons on orthopedic devices in the operating room. Not because he's a genius, because they trained him on the devices. Dave's right, you don't need anything other than a willingness to learn and basic intelligence,

and you have both of those in droves. Hey, we're gonna send you Ken's book from Paycheck to Purpose. I want you to go on his website and learn his, oh, no, also we're gonna send you proximity principles. That's what he needs. These are the number one, because that's what you do instead of job boards. it'll help you do what you're supposed to do

yeah hey Dave Ramsey here dr. John Delaney and I are coming to a city near you on the money and relationships tour you the audience will vote to choose the topics we talk about things that impact your life like investing in your future money stress in marriage and more we're coming to Louisville, Durham, Atlanta, Kansas City, Fort Worth, and Phoenix in April and May 2025. Tickets are at their lowest price right now. Grab yours at ramsysolutions.com slash tour. Today's question of the day is brought to you by WhyRefi.

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go to why refi dot com slash ramsey today that's the letter why r e f y dot slash Ramsey, might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Andre in Indiana. I'm being managed out of my job at my current employer. When I realized what was happening, I got ahead of it and have turned in my resignation, so I won't have a termination on my employment record. I have several interviews lined up and I'm not worried about finding another position. My question is, how should I approach obtaining a letter of reference from my current employer

should I need it? Well, you're going to approach it now before you leave the building. Number one. Number two, you're going to approach it with some gratitude and humility and just say, hey, I appreciate this opportunity to be here and I would love if you feel comfortable being a reference for me and give me a reference letter upon request. Are you comfortable with that? It's just a man to man conversation or man to woman conversation and that's about all

you can do there. Hopefully you've left well. We don't know what the situation here is, but I'm such a proponent for people leaving well. Even if you feel like you're not supposed to be there anymore, even if you feel like you've got some tension, you feel like maybe it wasn supposed to be there anymore, even if you feel like you've got some tension, you feel like maybe it wasn't the best situation for you, leaving well and not burning that bridge is always the right way to go because you have to assume that any future employer is going to call your past employer.

And so, humility and gratitude in class would be the three ingredients in the ask. And by the way, with every remaining second you have at that place before you leave, act with class. Yeah, smile, act with class, do everything. So most employers, Andre, do not give references on formers because of the liability. And so we don't. If someone calls here, the only thing we'll confirm is that they worked here between this date and that date. And that's the only thing we'll tell you. We won't say whether they're awesome or not.

I didn't realize that. That's good for me to know. I did not, I've heard of that. I didn't know that was... Because we don't want to get sued. Because we referred them or told somebody, you know, this guy's, he wasn't good. And then you turn around, you get all this other stuff on you. So yeah, we just, and that's not that unusual in the employment market we've learned when we're trying to check references. It's tough to get people to actually give you a reference. I want to sidestep Ken.

I want you to coach for a second here and I want to join you in it. Let's pretend that Andre, I'm going to make up something for Andre. I don't know anything about him, so this is all pretend. Let's pretend he's 26 and this is his second job and he says, I'm being managed out of my job. Now if you were working at Ramsey we don't manage people out of a job. We do manage them if they're not competent. We're going to talk to you about it and help you work on your

competence. We do manage you and talk to you about it and help you work on your competence. We do manage you and talk to you about it and create uncomfortable conversations if you're not handling your relationships with others inside the building well, if you're being a twerp. Okay, and so being the potential employer of someone in this situation, I wouldn't take the position I'm being managed out.

Yeah. Unless you've got a pure political situation going on. I mean, just because someone tells you to suck it up, buttercup, and get better, that is not being managed out. That's correct. So if I were coaching Andre, I would ask a lot of detailed questions.

What does that actually mean? And to the best of my ability, be able to discern, well, you're not being managed out or maybe you are. Now, what it's gonna look like in this case, if we're assuming what he's saying, is that someone is basically being, or making you as uncomfortable as possible, not in a way of leading you for growth

and having an uncomfortable conversation with your growth in mind, but actually being a turd to you to get you to quit because they don't want to fire you. Does that happen? It does. But in this case- That's bad leadership.

That's bad leadership. So I would be asking enough questions to find out what's really going on. And to to your point if they are holding you to a standard that they hired you to keep, you aren't being managed out. You're being held accountable for what they're paying you for. So I would be diving into what's really going on and then coaching from there. And in many cases, and I'm going to say this. Just because you're uncomfortable. That's right right doesn't mean you're being managed out that's correct or held to a standard right and so what we got to determine we're seeing this a lot with the younger generation accountability is really really hard we had we had one a while back that just couldn't seem to get to work on time wander in an hour

late and we say you know well you're creating stress by yeah that's kind of like what we do here we create stress for you need to be here on time if that's stressful just suck it up I mean that's a I know I'm sorry about your anxiety get your butt to work on time okay this is what we do and so and that's about how it would sound I mean we might be a little kinder than that but you know it's a pretty simple thing. We open the building at a certain time and you need to be here by then. Yeah, you have to reframe that. It's not creating stress, right? They say that. I'm not creating stress, but it's like anyone that ever told me I'm not

perfect in the apple of my mother's eye now is managing me out. That's just a bunch of crap. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay, so now there's two possibilities. You're being that, I'm not saying that Andre is, but be careful when you're using a phrase like I'm being managed out. You are taking the position of victim and you might not be the victim. That's right.

That's what I'm saying. You might be the victim. You might be a bunch of political junk and they're moving the chess pieces around trying to knock you over and get you out because they don't want you there and they don't have the backbone to just fire you. You know the metaphor I would use here Dave is are you being coached or are you being mistreated?

There you go. And a coach, and I usually return to sports because I grew up playing sports. Discomfort does not mean you're being mistreated. Yeah, you know I watch these NFL training camps. These are millionaires and the coach is pulling them off the field and they are coaching them up. They're getting out those little Microsoft pads on the sideline and they're showing these young quarterbacks that are franchise quarterbacks.

Here's what you did wrong on this interception. That's not mistreating that kid. That is coaching that kid on what they expect of them because they're paying them millions of dollars a year. And the same metaphor holds true in the workplace. Is your leader coaching you or are they mistreating you? Yeah, that's true. There's a wide gap.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Exactly what I'm saying because we spend a lot of time and money to hire you and get you in here. That's right. And so we're not going to manage anybody out. Yeah, it costs you more to replace them. Exactly. We're gonna try to help you make it. That's exactly right. But that may involve discomfort. It should. It usually doing something you've never done before or something you suck at and you got to get better is discomfort. It's not comfortable. It's outside your comfort zone. A quarterback feels really uncomfortable when he runs off the

field after throwing an interception because there's 75,000 people that are mad at him and his head coach. But guess what? That's the price of admission. That is the ticket to the B and me. Yeah. So step it up. Yeah. So again, I think that's a good clarification. Are you being coached? And if you are expect discomfort because that's what called growth. That's right. And you're moving up and in, if you're being mistreated, then you're being managed out. But either one of those could fall under this phrase. I'm not, I don't like the phrase is what I'm saying. It feels very victim. I felt the same thing when I saw it, you know?

Yeah, but it could be that he's just, he might be the victim of some toxic politics. It very well could. Being mistreated. That happens all the time. There's no question they're bad leaders. Because spineless leaders will do stuff like that that's passive aggressive rather than just fire somebody.

That's right. So you don't have that trouble here. We're gonna tell you this is what we're doing. If it doesn't work, we're gonna tell you it didn't work. We're not scared. We're not afraid. And we're not mean. And we're not unkind. So hey guys, for all of you listening to the show on YouTube or the podcast, it's about to end. You can get the entire show, including the next segment, on the Ramsey Network app which is free download it in the App Store or Google Play you've got the full video or audio podcast

production either one of the whole thing but certainly the last segment every day so click in the show notes and check it out we'd love to have you join us Ramsey Network app in the App Store the whole thing's free we're not charging a thing for this this is the Ramsey Show. What up, what up? It's Dr. John Delaney from the Dr. John Delaney Show with some amazing news. The latest episode of United States of Anxiety is available right now, exclusively on the Ramsey Network app. This docuseries follows real people from my show as they embark on a 90-day journey to transform their lives and I personally walk alongside them every step of the way.

Okay, now here's a sneak peek of what the new episode is all about. And don't forget to click the link in the show notes to download the app. What's up, Kelsey? So I've lived with crippling anxiety for as long as I can remember. How do I stop it from constantly coming up in different areas of my life? What does crippling anxiety mean? Paint me a picture of that. All right, so you're ready to jump in? I'm ready to jump in.

So we're going to check in with Kelsey, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. I cannot even function because I'm just crying. My mom left us when I was four. I truly felt like for a while I had no family. She's experiencing things that really hurt a long time ago. Tell me about this boy. He triggers me a lot. Scared of losing Paul, scared of doing the wrong thing, scared of not being enough. It just feels like it would be exhausting to be Kelsey. It is. Whenever somebody's playing whack-a-mole

with their anxiety, when it just keeps moving, that tells me the underlying system's not OK. How do I get my inner child out of this relationship? Because I feel like she's running the show. One of two people that's supposed to never leave took off. I was just... I was just burdened. You're burdened, that's supposed to never leave took off. I was just... I was just burdened. You're burdened, that's right.

To the one person who should carry it. All of it. Did you ever tell that little girl that it wasn't her fault? I don't know what to do. You either have to choose to let this guy love you, or you gotta choose to let this guy go.