The Ramsey Show - Quit Aiming Forever and Shoot Something Already!

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

📱Finish today's episode for free in the Ramsey Network app. Dave Ramsey & George Kamel answer your questions and discuss: "How do my parents transfer land over to me?" "Is it wise to go into debt for a graduate degree?" "AI told me this would be a good idea..." "Take out a HELOC to pay off my ex-wife?" Support Our Sponsors: Health Trust Financial: Discover Top Health Insurance Plans, All in One Place. Zander Insurance: Go to zander.com or call 800-356-4282 for a fast and easy quote today. BetterHelp: betterhelp.com/Delony to get 10% off your first month   NetSuite: Free KPI checklist, visit netsuite.com/Ramsey  Next Steps 📞 Have a question for the show? Call 888-825-5225 Weekdays from 2-5pm ET or click here! 💸Enter The Ramsey Cash Giveaway for a chance to win $10,000! 📚 Shop the $12 Sale to get life-changing tools to help you make real progress! 📄 Will an online will work for you? ❤️ Get $100 off tickets to Money & Marriage Getaway. 💵 Start your free budget today. Download the EveryDollar app! Listen to more from Ramsey Network 🎙️ The Ramsey Show   🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 💰 George Kamel 💼 The Ken Coleman Show 📈 EntreLeadership Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Campbell, number one best-selling author. Ramsey personality would be my co-host today. He's also the host of the super popular YouTube show, The George Campbell Show, with a K. Check it out on the Ramsey Networks. It's all there.

The phone number here is 888-825-5225. Dusty's in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hi, Dusty. How are you? Hey, Dave. I'm doing pretty good. Good. What's up?

I have a question on what I should do. I'm planning on building a house on my parents' land during the next year or two. And I want to know how to go about it. So I've been listening to your show for about four months now. And in that time, I've been fortunate enough, I've paid off about $26,000 in debt. Good for you. And I'll be debt-free right now in about the next three months. I should be completely debt-free.

And I want to know, should I – so I live next to my parents right now in a tiny house that I built last year. So my question is, should I save up for a down payment and get a construction loan to finance the house? I'm doing a barn dominium, one of the barn dough kits. Or should I just save up and try to pay it all out in cash and be able to do it, you know, over the next probably three years to be able to build the entire thing. I have been in construction for the past 13 years, so I'm pretty handy on that stuff. Cool. So you're single? No, no, I'm pretty handy on that stuff. Cool. So you're single? No, no, I'm married.

I'm married with one kid, and I got one on the way. Wow. In a tiny home? That's impressive. Yeah. Or crazy. I'm not sure which, but yeah. Okay.

Yeah, that's also a big factor. Now, my wife, it's not, I mean, it's about 500 square feet. Um, she, she wants us, she said she's okay in it, but she doesn't need a, you know, immediate big house or anything, but I don't know. I kind of feel a sense of urgency with the next kid coming on the way. Okay. So explain to me, um, the land is going to be retitled to you? So a couple years ago, I did a business on the land, and they had to do a quick claim deed just to put my name on it. So I don't know if that would— On the whole piece of land?

Yeah, yeah, on the whole piece. Okay, so your parents live on the land too? Yes. So you now own the property that they live on well see i'm not sure i mean the quick claim deed i'm added on to it but they're also still there i mean they're they still have their name on the land and my name is added to it also okay um and i'm guessing this is generational land um no yeah so was it your grandpa's no no my dad bought it now his plans are he wants to give each of his kids a portion of the land. It's split into five lots. He owns all five lots, and they're all tied into the same.

It's already platted and subdivided? Yes. Deed one of the lots to you then, exclusively you, without their name on it. Okay. Do not do this where your parents own the property the dirt under your barn dominium no or own a portion of the dirt no so okay the quit claim deed is probably either done poorly or wrong you guys need to look at that because if they they probably they i guess they put some percentage of an undivided interest or something into your name.

But that means you now own a portion of all those lots that are your brothers and sisters. Right. That was dumb. Okay. It's unclean, and when you do things that are unclean like that, because everybody's just going to get along, then they don't get along, then you're completely screwed. So let me ask you what happens if you get these tracts of land are how big? because everybody's just going to get along. Then they don't get along. Then you're completely screwed.

So let me ask you what happens if you get these tracts of land are how big? Five acres, you said? Two and a half. Two and a half. Okay, so you get two and a half acres completely in your name. You build a barn dominium on it, and three years later you decide to move to Kansas City. Can you sell it? You own it, but relationally, is everybody going to lose their freaking minds

yeah 100 yeah that's 100 i would not build on it then it's i mean it's where i grew up and i yeah i'm pretty i'm me and my wife are both hard sale i'm raising let me just tell you what you're a hundred percent gonna stay there if it goes toxic if it goes sideways if your brother gets into cocaine if your mother has dementia and shoots somebody all kinds of crap man i've been doing this 35 years nothing works like you think it's going to work. When stuff happens, you've got to have some autonomy, and you don't have any. It's as if you never left home and live in their basement. This is really bad.

I personally wouldn't do what you're doing, and I would advise you against it. Not because I think your parents are bad people. I don't. Or that you're bad people, or that you really don't think you're going to stay there. You really think you're going to stay there and you really might. But the truth is most people don't. The truth is 40 years from now, the chances of you being on that piece of dirt is almost zero.

That's the truth. People just don't. Life changes. Things come up. Different things occur in family situations. You don't want to be over there. I don't know what's in your future that's positive or negative that would push you away from that dirt, but you have no ability to leave it with the deal you're doing.

And that is just bad medicine. And if you're going to go forward, though, at least for God's sakes, get it in your name. Don't be building on something that's got your parents' name on the dirt. A hundred percent of that lot is in you and your wife's name. At least you've got the legal option of turning the property over if you need to, even though relationally you don't think you would ever want to. I get that you don't think that's going to happen, Dan, but what you don't get is you think you're doing six things that cause cancer. I'm a cancer doctor.

I've seen cancer for 35 years. You're doing all the stuff that causes cancer. And you're going to have cancer. And I don't know how to stop you from doing it. So that's the problem. And so I have to come at this from the negative because it's what you and I see every day, George. Yeah, these are handcuffs made of dirt. So is there an alternative here dave where he goes all right

i'm going to buy land elsewhere that that is mine and that i will build on that's what i would do that feels like the best alternative you know even if it's down the street i mean it's in the neighborhood but uh my kids live uh you know in a 30 minute radius from us i would be heartbroken if they moved to kansas city you know i'd be heartbroken if they moved to Kansas City. You know, I'd be heartbroken if they moved away with my grandkids. I don't want that. But I don't get to decide that. They get to decide that. And he's surrendering his autonomy.

He's surrendering his ability to make a decision for his family unit, no matter what happens. It's like it's chiseled in concrete. And he might be pouring six figures into something that he can't get back out he can't get it out that's frightening because he we want real estate to be an investment well it's going to go up in value but if you're unwilling to sell it under any circumstances because of the dirt handcuffs four siblings now that are upset about it that's oof the number of times i've gotten the call from Dusty, your wife, that says my husband and I built on his dad's property and we can't sell it.

I've gotten that call 50 times. Easy. And it's never a good call. So you guys do what you want to do. I'm going to try to talk you out of it. I doubt I did, though. This is the Ramsey Show. You've worked, saved, sacrificed, and been gazelle intense with your financial game plan.

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Welcome to the Ramsey Show. Thanks, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's the Ramsey Show. Thanks, Dave. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's up? All right. So I just graduated from undergraduate college, debt-free. Woo!

And I am planning on going to graduate school in clinical psychology, but I'm going to have to go into debt and take student loans to pay for the degree. Is this a bad decision? Yes. Okay, so what should I do instead? That's a good question. You said you had to. Why are you going to grad school for critical psychology?

What's the goal? To be a practicing clinical psychologist in private practice. Okay, so you have to have a master's to do that. Right. Okay. And where did you get your undergrad? At the local public school, South Alabama. Okay.

And do they offer a master's? Not to my knowledge. They don't offer a master's um not to my knowledge they don't offer a master's i know other programs um near me offer a master's but um i think that the application deadline for that is too late so would you recommend me um taking a year off and applying to master's programs? Why did you, okay, you went through the undergrad and got a degree in psychology in undergrad, and you paid cash for it. That's right. And then why did you suddenly decide I have to go to a school I can't afford to do my grad work?

Because you could have gone to a school you could afford, but you chose not to, and now these deadlines have passed you. Why? Right. Well, I assumed, I guess, that I needed to get a doctorate degree in clinical psychology to practice. You don't. You have to have a master's.

Right. Master's will get you licensed in most states anyway. There may be a few that require a doctorate now. I don't know. What's it going to cost you? Well, it's quite a bit. It's $35,000 a year. And you've researched all the programs, even online ones,

and that's the best deal? No, that's not the best deal. You can get this degree for $20,000. That's the point. Have we done the research to see if we can find a more affordable option and then see what it would take to cash flow that? Okay. That's what I would do.

I've seen some programs that I thought were ridiculous. They were around like $70,000 or somewhat $50,000, and I didn't even consider those. Yeah, that's good. You did do a little shopping, but you can get this you can get this degree for half of what you're talking about okay and nobody cares where you went to school by the way all they care is did you pass your boards and can you help them right no one

ever went to a marriage counselor and said wait wait let me check the frame where'd you go to school nobody ever did that ever all they want to know is can dan guide me with his psychological training through this rough spot in my life i need a guide can he help me that's really what they want to know you want to be a healer good for you right you're a good person yeah and you, so if, I mean, you called to ask, I think number one, even, let's pretend you had $50,000 cash in your bank account. I would still tell you not to pay $35,000 for this. I'd still tell you to go get a better deal, a better deal. Because there's something about this particular critical psychology path at this particular location that romanced you. Or it was just the one option and that's now what I got to do.

Because we didn't look for more options. So, no, I would not go in debt. Because here's the thing. You got to get out. It's a two-year process to finish your master's, get licensed, pass your boards. And then you've got to get out and actually start making money. And in most states, you're going to have to put some hours under your belt before you can get licensed.

So it's going to be a while before you make any money to pay this, to get a return on investment into this degree. And even then, you're going to have to choose carefully how you choose to practice psychology because you can do it. Psychology, not as bad as sociology, but they both are very tough. You can get into some very underpaid situations with those. And, okay, now I make, you know, $26,000 a year after spending all this money as a school counselor. No.

No. Okay. a school counselor no no okay and then people come out with two hundred thousand dollars and you know you're not dan but people come out with two hundred thousand dollars and uh student loans because they did their graduate work at some school they shouldn't have and they end up in a school counselor role this is just don't do i'm begging you use some common sense or use some wisdom pay cash for it and pay pay less for it because it's going to be a while before you monetize it and that might mean taking a year off and working your tail off and getting a few side jobs it might or it might mean going and sitting down in the

you know so many schools they actually need students so oh the deadline passed oh kiss my butt i'm gonna go sit down with the guy who runs the administration office and go, hey, I got money. You want me in? And they're going, oh, look, an opening just occurred. Look at that. Look at that. We can squeeze in. Oh, that deadline thing.

Oh, you know, I mean, come on. Yeah, seriously. It's not like they have a line around the block at most of these schools to get into graduate work on psych. So, sorry. You're not getting into law school or med school here. This is psych. So, yeah, seriously, I think you go poke around, try to stay on the track. But if you end up taking six months off or you end up taking a year off, okay, then go pile up a bunch of money, and you have a little bit of a war chest to go at this.

Irwin is with us in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Irwin. How are you? Hi, Dave and George. I'm way better than I deserve. Thanks for having me on. Oh, good. We're glad to have you, sir.

What's up? So I've got a question for you here. I've got around $200,000 left on my mortgage, a 3% interest rate, and I have been absolutely laser focused on getting that paid off. And so the strategy that I've taken is I opened a high interest savings account, which gets me about 4.125%. And rather than paying any extra money on my mortgage, I've been putting it in that account. And I've got around $120,000 saved up in there right now. Your high yield savings account pays what?

About 4.125%. And your mortgage interest rate is what? 3%. Okay. So I had spoke with my financial advisor about that strategy, and I put it into ChatCPT, which seems to know everything. And both of them came back and said that that was a good strategy to put it in there. And then once I hit that $200,000, just pay it off in one lump sum

because I'm actually making more money on that interest than I would be if I just paid it off slowly as I went. I just wanted to ask you guys if you thought that was a good idea or not. You called the right place. I don't think it's a good idea. I'm going to disagree with AI and tell you that it's much wiser to pay off your mortgage. It's what I did, Erwin, personally. And we did our millionaire study.

Not one said, well, the money I would have put toward the mortgage, I invested instead, and that's how I became wealthy. We found that wealthy people actually pay off their mortgages 10 years on average. And so I would absolutely pay it off, and I wouldn't wait until you had $200,000 to do it. So, dude, 1% on $120,000 is $1,200. pay it off and i wouldn't wait till you had 200 000 to do it so dude one percent on 120 000 is twelve hundred dollars we don't have a 12 we don't have a twelve hundred dollar problem we have a two hundred thousand dollar problem you have fixed the two hundred thousand dollar problem because you're a genius and you're able to live on less than you make and save money

okay so you're saying as because what i've been doing is taking my bonus checks and putting them right in the net. I'm saying all of this gyration you're doing, fire your financial advisor and quit looking up crap on the internet to get advice for anything except whose birthday it is. Oh my gosh. No, no. Yeah. Pay cash as fast as you can, as hard as you can on this mortgage.

You're doing all these double backflips. You look like one of these Olympic divers, all for $1,200. And $1,200 in a spit against the measure of $200,000. Pay off the mortgage and start investing that payment you were making, and then come back and tell us it wasn't a good move. Oh, wait, wait. The $1,200 is income. It's taxable. So it's not $1,200. It's $800. You did all of this for less than $1,000.

AI ought to be ashamed of itself. But it's not that smart. This is The Ramsey Show. I've been doing this show for over 30 years, and some of the saddest calls I have taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible. People that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills. I'm going to eat next week. Yeah in the middle of all that grief like it's just it is it's terrible. So life insurance is the one thing especially as

a mom with three little kids that I'm like so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance. And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here. You got to say it out loud and you got to say I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of stinking pizza to get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282 or go to zander.com.

George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host on the debt-free stage in the lobby of Ramsey Solutions. Dane is with us. Hi, Dane. How are you? Hi, Dave and George. How are you? Better than we deserve, brother. Welcome. Where do you live? Live in Sacramento, Dave. Oh, beautiful. Love Sacramento. Welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you paid? so uh two hundred and sixteen thousand seven hundred and sixty five thousand dollars and twenty one cents excellent and how long did this take it took eight years and four months wow and your range of income during that time sure so it started uh about to eighty thousand and then up to uh 128,000 cool what do you do for a living I'm in uh client

relations sales for a local government association in California. Okay. Well, that would put you in Sacramento for sure. Okay. Cool. Very cool. And the 217,000, what kind of debt was this? It was my house, Dave. Yeah. A guy in California owns his house paid for. That is really weird. Way to go, weirdo. I'm proud of you. Thank you. Excellent job. Uh, well, I actually had a few, uh, kind of life changes. So actually sold it recently. So, uh, that was kind of part of the journey, uh, selling the house. Ah, I got you. Okay. All right. Well, good for you, man. Congratulations. How's it feel to be

free? It feels amazing. It feels, uh, it feels free. free it feels amazing it feels uh it feels free you know you feel uh so relaxed and can do so many other things obviously coming out here to nashville to be a part of your show today and uh obviously being able to be more generous to whether the church or just everyday life and it's it's it's great so in the selling of the house you buy another one then later no No, not right now. You will someday? I think so. Very good.

Just kind of got to get through this process. Good for you, brother. Well done, man. All right. What happened eight years ago that put you on this journey? What was the moment that woke you up? What's your why? Why did you do this?

And what motivated you? How did you get connected to us? Sure. Yeah, no, it was actually in September of 2015. I was on a work trip and was traveling around and the show was on the radio station that I was listening to and I hadn't heard of the show at all. And I thought I was doing pretty well. I had paid off my credit card debt and student loan debt and just figured I was going to

have a 30-year mortgage to, you know, manage for the next 30 years. And I think, Dave, at the time you were yelling at someone to pay off their mortgage. And so I, you know, that took how important that is. And I listened to it and I started thinking about it and I was like, well, this would, you know, I can do this too. And obviously for the rest of 2015, I, you know, kind of wasn't serious about it. And then in 2016, it was game on. Okay. Very cool. What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is? You paid off your house. Boy, I mean, a few things. For me, the budget was key. Certainly having that financial plan, you know, telling your money where to go every month was important. Financial Peace University, my son's here as well, and their mom, Kristen, got me into an FBU class about five years ago. That was obviously key.

And so that was definitely want to thank her for that. And, you know, like a reason, right? A reason to change your family tree, right? And then a community of support was helpful as well. So I would listen to your guys' show and those times when I would kind of get down a little discouraged about the journey that I was on. And this is, you know, I've still got four or five years left and it would help. Wow. That's impressive. And, you know, the kids got a front row seat. Were they even born when you started the journey? They were, yes. Wow.

Yeah. And you went, was this part of legacy of just, I want my kids to grow up not knowing debt? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, just having them see to kind of go through that, the journey and the challenge and that they can be debt-free as well.

And they were actually very involved. We built kind of a debt chain at home and they would, you know, they would cut the links off of it when we'd pay off. Yeah, that's a core memory right there. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And just, you know,

one of the things I just wanted to say too is that we just, I know back then, you know, I said 2015 was when I first heard the message and I'm sure, you know, Dave and Georgia was the 10,000th time you guys had said that, but that day it reached me and changed my life. So thank you so much to you and the team for what you guys do. Well, and this day, your debt-free scream is reaching someone today.

So it does go full circle. The ripple effect. Does go full circle. You're paying it forward by celebrating this so openly. Congratulations. Very, very well done. Powerful, Dane. Very powerful.

Good stuff. So the why is the boys, and they got to watch the whole thing happen, and they'll never have debt because they've seen how dad acts. Certainly so. Yeah, it kind of came from my mom here as well, and they gave me the foundation of hard work and sacrificing for your goals uh my parents so it's you know obviously we all get somewhere with someone else and i try to do my part going forward yeah well congratulations brother very proud of you all right bring the boys up let's introduce them what are their names and ages sure so this is

right here he's nine and this is caden he's 11. All right very cool very cool well congratulations you guys you're heroes so proud of you so you say the key is the budget and what else? Certainly the FPU Financial Peace University and I think you know like I said having a reason. The community that was the other thing that's important plug it into something that is telling you to do it and that is supporting you rather than tearing you down because there's always some bozo in the background yelling not to do it too so um yeah you guys you you really worked your tail off and pulled this off i'm so proud of y'all way to go hero thank you so much yeah those young men have got a dad they can definitely look up to that's pretty cool stuff all right dane and caden and cohen ah here we go baby 217 000 paid off house and everything

in california did this in eight years and four months making 80 to 128 count it down let's hear a debt-free scream okay three two. We're debt free! Yeah! Mortgage free. Mortgage free in California. Those two things just don't go together. You don't hear that in a sentence very often. I thought it couldn't be done. It's impossible.

Wow. The things you and George teach are impossible. Until you do it oh wait then there's dane yeah i mean kind of messed it up yeah it's that whole well no one does that one so you can't say that anymore so we messed that up i'm curious dave doing this for 30 years now like he said you know has have things changed as you've been yelling at people to pay off their mortgage i'm getting accused of yelling a lot in this segment i've noticed i'm forceful with my opinions but i usually don't yell well not unless you someone needs a little slapping around that's rare these

days okay but are more and more people saying i'm going to hang on to the mortgage because of fear because of the market have you seen a trend over 30 years when it comes to mortgage payoff you know debt payoff in general there's always been somebody trying to find a shortcut. You know, I'm going to borrow money and instead of paying off my debt, I'm going to put it in a high yield savings or, you know, there's always some kind of angle. I'll get a hang lock. I'll get a second mortgage. Instead of just doing it, we human beings look for a scam. We for an angle we want to angle and we you know just do it stand around talk about it you know you could already had the garage swept while you were

discussing how to sweep it sweep the dadgum garage i mean come on that sounds like my dad right there right i mean you know you've been talking about this and trying to decide whether you're going to get a blower or a broom or what kind of broom get up just get started sweeping just sweep you know i mean everybody's got to try to find some thing where they figured out the universe well the universe has already figured it out god's figured it out he told you borrowers slave to the lender how long you won't be a slave stop it you know you got to get into it and so that that's what dane did he leaned into it and he knocked it out there's no angle that but it's human nature so yeah for 35 years i've been hearing people looking for an angle you know there's how can i keep this debt and still be

debt free my financial advisor told me it just took my broke my broke friend that i went to happy hour with seven beers and two joints later told me I should keep my mortgage. You know, well, of course he did. He's a moron. And then we did our millionaire study and it turns out millionaires actually pay off their mortgage in 10.2 years on average. The baby steppers pay it off

in seven years on average and Dane is right there in the middle. Yeah. Eight years, four months. Yeah, perfect. He's on a lot. Imagine seven years from now, eight years from now,

you could have no mortgage if you wanted to, if you so chose. But don't discuss how to sweep the garage. Just sweep the garage. Start sweeping. Extra payments. Quit talking about your dadgum theories.

Don't overcomplicate it. Aim, aim, aim, aim. You don't need strategies. Shoot something. Gosh. See, he does yell. This is the Ramsey Show. We have it on tape.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This the season for halloween it's october we're wearing costumes and we're wearing masks so if you haven't started planning your costume yet get on it and while you're thinking about it i want you to be honest a lot of us hide ourselves we hide our true selves behind costumes and masks all the time we do this at work we do this around work. We do this around our friends. We do this around our families. We even do this when we look at ourselves in the mirror. I know because I've been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding behind masks and costumes all the time, if you find yourself hiding from your true self, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can be honest, where you can talk to somebody else and reflect and learn, and you

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That's BetterHelp.com slash Deloney. George Campbell, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host. Karen is with us in Los Angeles. Hi, Karen. How are you? Hi, good. Thank you for taking my call. Sure. What's up? Well, I have some questions. Well, one question.

Recently, my husband passed away. Oh, I'm sorry. When did he pass? He passed June 15th. Oh, just the other day. Okay. Wow. Yeah, just a minute ago. Oh, my. How long were you all married? 24 years.

How old was he? 55 years old. Wow. What happened? He was, you know, it started with COVID, but what happened was he had a heart attack and he died in his sleep. I'm so sorry. How are you doing? Thank you so much.

It's a roller coaster. I have my good days and I have my bad days. But I feel very grateful in so many ways because he did die in his sleep, and I kept telling him that he was in need of a doctor, and I kept pushing and pushing, and he wouldn't listen to me. And so I knew something was going to happen. So I was expecting it. And so that's a weird thing to say.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. So you're doing okay, though? I'm trying. I'm worried about my kids. Okay. How old are your kids? 23 and 17. Are they living at the house with you? Yes, they live at the house, and we've been staying very close, but in two weeks, I go back to work my work has been very very generous with my time and um but in two weeks i go back to work and so they're on their own a lot so um well the 23 year old needs to get to work i guess well she's in school full time. Oh, okay, good. She's back in school? Yeah.

Well, not yet. She took the summer off. He died right when summer school was happening, and she just dropped out, which was okay. I understood. Sure. But my son kept going, and today's his last day, so we're going to take a little vacation. We're going to go away for vacation for a week, and then when I get back, I'm going right to work. Good for you. What do you make at work? How much money? About 80,000.

Okay. So how are you set up financially? Are you okay? Well, um, we had life insurance and so I'm financially secure now. We were a mess. But as soon as the life insurance was in progress, I started listening to your show, and I took all the steps that you promote. Wow. And so I paid off every bill we had, and we had a ton of bills. I mean, we had $80,000 worth of debt, and we don't own a home. We lost our home. And I had $40,000 worth of IRS bills.

And all that's paid? It's all paid. How much life insurance did you get? $1.5 million good okay so the problem is i didn't pay off i didn't know what to do about i had leased a car and i didn't know what to do you don't talk about leased cars very often but you're you're not positive about them and i know that they're not a good value yeah i'm positive we don't do them but you did it it's okay so you just call here's what you

do just call who's the who's the lease with uh bmw just call bmw and tell them you need the early buyout which is early buyout yeah which is like the. I want to pay the car off. I need the early buyout. I want my title. Okay. That's what I wanted to know. And it's like if you had a loan, you're obviously not going to pay the interest for all the years remaining. You're just going to pay the payoff on the principal balance, right? Yes.

And that's what you're asking for. It's the same thing. Okay. So that's the smartest thing is to early buy out and then keep the car. Yeah. I love the car. You don't hate the car, right? Oh, I love the car.

It's so awesome. But I know that it's a bad investment, and I thought you were going to tell me to keep it for the three years. No. I didn't know what you were going to say. Pay it off and keep it. You've got the money. You're okay. How much money will you have left over once all that's done? Um, 1.4 something, something, something. Yeah. Where's that money kept right now? Um, I put it in Vanguard and in my retirement account as much as I could at work. So it's invested? Yes. Okay. And Fidelity. Okay. Not Fidelity. I think

I opened a Chase account. I don't know. I spread it around a little bit because I was confused and I needed to get it FDIC insured. Sure. Well, I would recommend you get connected with a smart investor pro. You can find one at ramseysolutions.com. I want to make sure this money does grow for you and that it can help you, you know, replace that income and grows at a good rate for you. And we start talking about buying a house out of it at some point, not necessarily today, but at some point. In the meantime, yeah, just get the lease paid off and you'll be heading in the right direction.

And Karen, anything you need, you holler at us. We'll help you any way we can, okay? It hasn't even been two months. Wow. Goodness gracious. She's on it it she's game on well she jumped right at it uh i probably didn't have a choice on some of it joseph's in dallas hey joseph what's up hi how you guys doing better than i deserve how can i help

um so i just had a question uh how do i convince my wife to pay off our or her student loan and the rest of our debt and do it like as efficiently as possible what caused you to want to do it um well i just don't like debt but we've ended up racking up we chose to rack up uh more debt out of here like we have some credit card debt. And so something changed, and you decided to get intense and get out of debt. When was that? Well, I just never liked it. No, that's not true. You went into debt.

You're ready to do something drastic. What happened the other day, two weeks ago, five months ago? Something happened, and you went, I want to get out of debt. Maybe you start listening to this show. I don't know. What happened to get out of debt. Maybe you start listening to this show. I don't know. What happened? I guess, yeah, I did start listening to your show. Like, my high school, one of my high school teachers had mentioned you guys years ago,

and I was like, okay, like, that's cool, but I didn't have any debt then either, so it was like I was just going through life. So you waited to get some to go, all right, now I'll start listening to this show. Yeah, pretty much. Like, it only took us 10 months to rack up our debt that we have now and um how much do you have i think about 41 000 debt the reason george are asking you the same question reason george and i are asking you the same question of how what got you fired up because something happened that you got new information that made you so excited that you were willing to sacrifice and get very intense

and get out of debt. That was not there before. And that's what happens with your wife. It's exactly the same thing. You expect her to just wake up one morning and suddenly out of the blue feel exactly like you when you didn't used to feel this way but now something happened and you got new information you thought gosh it'd be worth it to sacrifice and when i look at this when i step back and look at it scares the crap out of me we went this far in debt in just 10 months we got to stop that we got to turn the car around we got to go back and get off the interstate the other direction. And we've got to repent. We have to do a 180. And, you know, and that's what does it for her. It's not, honey, we've got to do this because I'm smart and I figured it out.

No, it's here's – this is terrifying me that we went this far in. Let's look at this. And I get really not terrified. I get excited when i talk about getting out of it let's talk about how our life would look if we got out of it what would we do if we didn't have any debt how much wealth could we build and where could we travel and what kind of generosity could we do and let's dream with her into the future ask her what she would want to do if we were debt free and give her a reason to be excited about it other than you just did some math. She needs her own catalyst to get this journey started.

And then we need to show her that there's a new Joseph. You've got to actually change some habits. It might be you selling some stuff, getting rid of an old subscription where she goes, oh, my gosh, you really want to do this, don't you? And I think that's part of it. It's got to be more than just words. It's got to be action with that. Absolutely.

Financial Peace University is the best way. If you just wanted a silver bullet, Financial Peace gives you the language. Yeah, we'll do that. Helps you dream together. We'll give you the class to go through. You and your wife go through Financial Peace on us. And if you can get her to go to the class, I'll convince her. You won't have to.

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for good. Simply search Ramsey Network in the App Store or Google Play. If you're listening on a podcast, just click the link in the show notes to download our free Ramsey Network app today. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show. We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. George Camel, number one bestselling author, Ramsey personality, and host of The George Camel Show. He's my co-host today. Thank you for joining us. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Gina's in New York City. Hi, Gina. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Better than I deserve. What's up? So about five years ago, we lost our house. We lost about a half a million dollars in a failed business.

Prior to that, we were always really good with our finances. But since then, we've been renting, and we don't have a savings. We don't have a retirement. We don't have anything. All we have is a property that my father-in-law gifted us that's worth about 1.6 million, no mortgage, and we don't know how to move forward. Do we mortgage that and do something else with it? Do we continue renting? Our expenses really is just, we cover what we make, what we spend. So we're just not sure what the best decision would be.

We're kind of afraid to move. I'm sorry. That's devastating. So really, during the last five years, since all this happened, you've really not made any progress? Right. Why? So we put two kids through state college. We didn't have them incur any debt.

We covered their college. I have another son that's going to college next year. My other son's in the Navy because he didn't go to college. We were paying for half his wedding, the reception only. So it's just been like, and then everything just seems to be getting more and more expensive so what we're making maybe where there was a little left to be um i make 42 000 a year my husband makes 115 000 a year well um Well, the thing is you're not made any progress during the five years since the horrible event.

Okay. So typically what happens is, you know, after there's a forest fire, things start to grow back. And nothing's growing back here because you're continuing to spend everything you make, and you make $150,000. And so, you know, you can't continue to do what you're doing. That's the answer to your question. You've got to, you know, you've got to get to a position that you say, the thing we learn from the failed business and the lost home and our heart being

broken and our emotions being gutted the thing we learn is we don't borrow money the thing we learn is is that we're going to live on less than we make and this is what sharon and i went through i mean not only we were 28 you're not 28 but um you know it gutted us emotionally we couldn't you know uh we were numb uh we were uh well i walked around for a year blaming everybody else i was a victim um and then i discovered that i was a victim of my own stupidity that i signed up for the trip i got to take and uh that was a harsh discovery. And that began healing. I said, okay, I'm going to take responsibility. And the responsibility is, is I don't borrow money anymore. And the responsibility is, is I'm going to be on a

budget. And the responsibility is we're going to be tithing at our church. And the responsibility is Sharon and I are going to be in agreement on every dollar that leaves this place before it leaves. And we're freaking hardcore about it and we're going to live on less than we make and if that means looking at a kid and saying no we're going to look at a kid and say no if that means looking at a relative and saying no or a friend we're going to say no because i got one goal here me and sharon are never going back to this mess again and that was kind of the way we did it um it was a long time ago but you can tell by the emotion in my voice i remember it so i know how you feel you're you're kind of weak in the knees

but um you know you guys have really got to look at what we've gone through an extreme thing and the way to recover from an extreme thing is extreme discipline. Does that make any sense? Yeah, I agree with that. And I don't think what you've done, I mean, paying for a kid's wedding is not evil. Paying for their college is not evil. You know, you haven't done anything that's evil here. That's not the point.

But you just did it like it didn't matter and as if this other stuff hadn't happened and did it anyway and and left you and your husband broke and still broken you're still scared you're still terrified as if this was as if this happened a month ago instead of five years ago. Right. And I want you guys, I want to see some emotional healing and financial healing for you and your husband. Your kids will be, they'll make it. They'll be all right. Lots of kids' parents have gone broke and they turned out okay. What shrapnel is left from this thing? Do you guys have any debt you're still trying to pay off?

Minimal. We didn't really have debt. So we have like, you know, we have three cars, two are paid off. One I owe about $25,000 on. I have about $5,000 on an American Express and $8,000 on a different credit card with zero interest. But that's it. Can I tell you, Gina, the way you're talking, that's it. It's you gina you're the way you're talking that's it it's minimal that freaks me out and i think you need that level of intensity to never go back to this spot again right and so before we cover kids college and pay for a wedding we got to clean up our debt because you guys have nothing in savings you told me we got to put our own mask on first here

you're still you're still spending more than 150k right you gotta stop it so um and i understand but i'm telling you that you can't keep doing the same thing over and over again expect the different results so uh um the land the 1.6 million that's a curious thing off to the side of this story he just handed you the keys to this? Well, he owns, my husband's first generation, so he owns a few properties and he gave one to each of his kids. That's the one that we got. It's a six family building. We don't take anything from it. Why? Because it's rent stabilized, so it doesn't make a ton of money as it is, and we just let it kind of accumulate. My father-in-law is still alive, so obviously he still takes from it

and that was included in the 150 so it's not really yours though emotionally in the sense that if you wanted to sell it that would cause a problem well he says we can if we want to take a loan out on it our problem is alone i don't want to say i said sell it right yeah sell it and buy you a house i i don't know that i would need to buy a house that cost that much and i don't want to cost that much i just don't want to own this like you're you call me up're completely broke, broken and emotionally wounded, and over here to the side you have a paid for $1.6 million property. You're making $10,000 a year from it.

These two things are incongruent. It's incongruent to your story, but it makes me think that you don't really have the relational option to sell it. I don't think your father-in-law is going to go along with you selling it he's going to have a fit and then go buy you a six hundred thousand dollar house and put some money in some mutual funds or buy another piece of real estate that you own that actually makes a good rate of return because this thing sucks on the rate of return what does the future hold for business Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 different answers.

Economic growth or a recession. Business taxes will go up or down. AI will help us work or it will replace us all. But there's no such thing as a crystal ball. That's why more than 40,000 businesses have future-proofed themselves with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud enterprise resource planning system. Ramsey Solutions uses NetSuite, and you should too. Whether your company's earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities. With one unified business management suite,

there's only one source of truth for the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. NetSuite's real-time insights and forecasting help you see into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can spend less time looking backward and more time focusing on what's next. And speaking of what's next, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. It's free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. expenses in real time so you always know what's happening with your money. Talk about a weight lifted off your shoulders. Start feeling in control of your money again. Download the EveryDollar app today for free. George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Today's question of the day is brought to you by WhyRefi. If private student loan debt is taking away from your peace of mind you don't see any

way out well you need why refi why refi refinances defaulted private student loans that other places won't touch and gives you a low fixed rate loan that's customized to you, built for you. Go to yrefi.com slash Ramsey today. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Michael in Ohio. How do you reconcile paying off debt prior to funding college? We started on our journey to freedom from debt last year, and our son will be attending college within the next two years. My focus has been earmarking cash specifically for his college tuition and expenses, with early debt payoff as a secondary priority based on the timeframe of when that cash is needed. What's your advice to parents with a more imminent timeline to college? Imminent. So intense. Okay, so we're talking within the next two years, son is attending college.

They've got some consumer debt. They're trying to help pay for junior's college. What say you, Dave? Why this order? Because baby step two is pay off your consumer debt. Baby step five is save for kids college. Well, this is not really saving for kids college. This is almost budgeting.

Because this is a current budget line item because it's here cash flowing and so what it's doing is it's whatever we're paying out of our pocket for the kids college because it's upon us it's imminent to use his word um because of that it's a budget item it's not really a baby step and so what that does then by mathematical necessity is it reduces the amount of money you put towards your debt because you have this expense line in your budget it's going to slow down your debt but that's not because college is more important it's because college is on top of you now having said all of that michael in ohio in Ohio, Junior is going to community college for the first two years because he's got a mom and dad that are broke.

He's not going to Harvard. Hello? The number one reason people go into student loan debt is not to get an education it's because they chose to go to a college they couldn't afford the university of tennessee at knoxville an in-state school for a tennessee resident is right now $14,000. Vanderbilt, here in Nashville, is $75,000. If you have extra money and you want your child to go to Vanderbilt, that's fine.

But you do not go in student loan debt to go to vanderbilt versus go to the university of tennessee and you can't convince me it's better because i went to the university of tennessee and people that went to vanderbilt worked for me ouch sick burn so there's that so college selection is what's important it's the number one thing because people they here's what. It's the number one thing because people, here's the irony of it. We talked about this in Borrowed Future in the documentary. The irony is that people are stupid about education. That's an irony. We're dumb about education, if you think about it.

We don't shop for the price. So what we want is we want Junior to go to college. We want him to get an education we want him to get a degree in something that's useful not left-handed puppetry or german polka history you'll end up a barista okay so and two hundred thousand dollars in debt and you got it from a name brand college that all your friends think is fancy so you're a fancy barista hello two nose rings so there we go and i want to know what junior's buy-in is in this college process hello that's number two isn't it feels entitled to it i'm i'm thinking junior signing up for scholarships as hard as old dad is working here

to save money because it's imminent love that word i think junior needs to realize it's imminent and he needs to be doing three essays a night registering for free money called scholarships oh and junior needs to plan to work while he's in school it's not child abuse it's really not little snowflake will make it they'll be okay on the data shows 15 to 20 hours a week part-time job you have a higher gpa than those who don't work so he'll be okay you'll actually be smarter he'll actually be smarter he'll develop this interesting thing called work ethic while he's there i want him to be able to study and play beer pong that's what you're saying actually you don't realize it if you've it's a well-rounded education day it's rounded a little little little round white ball yeah i

got you george i was i saw what you did there thank you and um so yeah we're we're we don't get a degree in beer pong we're gonna work uh oh by the way it's interesting when i'm speaking to adult audiences 5 000 people in the audience and i say if you went to college how many you went to college? And people raise their hands like most of the audience, right? How many of you worked while you were in college? Almost everybody in the room raised their hand. The number of people that went to college and worked zero hours while they were in college is almost zero. So junior's going to be working. Junior's going to be getting scholarships. We're going to choose a college that is inexpensive and in the area because we don't have any money. And he's going to graduate and go be successful because he understands that the reason for an education is it's not a magic bullet that makes you successful.

It puts tools in the belt of someone that knows how to work hard, be honest, apply themselves in the marketplace, and those tools help you to be successful. But no one ever became successful because of their degree. They became successful because of hard work, moxie, confidence, being competent in the marketplace, and kicking butt and taking names. That's how you become successful. I had a guy working here one time. He came in my office and he said, you know, he had more degrees than a thermometer. And he said, you know, people that have as many degrees as I have when they work for big companies, they make a lot more than I make here. And I said, yeah, but you work for a small business. He said, yeah, I know. I said, well, that's, you know,

the rules of small business are different. Your raise is effective when you are. I couldn't care less about your dadgum degrees. All I care is can you do something with them that brings money into this place, and I'll share some with you. Hello, that's how this works. So make yourself of value, boys and girls. That is what makes you valuable. It is not the fact that you went to college somewhere and therefore the society owes you an income

because you have a degree. Society doesn't owe you squat, and you will find that out as soon as you walk out there because it will spit in your face. And then you'll be going, I sure hope Biden will help me. He's asleep in the basement. You're not going to get any help.

So not coming. Not coming, boys and girls. So that's the rant there, Michael. You're doing a good thing put it in the budget i'm not disagreeing with you but then don't tell me oh well my son told me he's going to this school see that's the thing 17 year old didn't tell me anything at my house i told them stuff but they didn't tell me stuff i solicited their input and told them what we were going to do. You're paying for it. There's rules. And you've said, Dave, here's the rules. You have to graduate in four years with this four-year degree. And it's interesting. I told my kids, I said,

here's the syllabus. That's the list of classes you take in order to graduate. And so if you take all of these classes and you pass them all, you know what they give you? A degree. Wow. It's magical. And you know, if you take all these classes and you pass them all in four years, you know what you get? A degree. If you do it in three years, you know what you get? The exact same degree.

You know what you do if you do it in eight years? A degree. The exact same degree. So take the freaking classes. Show up. What are you doing? I mean, we're laying out on top of the dorm getting a suntan it's spring you're killing me and you missed the class that it took to graduate

well the average student that's right the average anything you don't want to be you don't want to be average we're not signing up for average. Golly. 57% of the people that start college do not graduate. That's scary. That means 43%. Nationally, we have a graduation rate of 43%. If you got a 57% do graduate. I got that backwards. A 43% dropout rate.

If you got a 57% on a test at any one of those colleges, they would call it an F. But they walk around acting like they did something, graduating 57% of the people. That means 43% of you leave without the degree and with the student loan. Don't do this. It was a lie. You were sold a lie. That's why they brag about acceptance rate, Dave, not the graduation rate. Mm-hmm.

Pay cash. They ought to brag about the job rate after we left the school and got the degree. That's the thing you ought to be bragging about. This is the Ramsey Show. Hey, folks. Dave here. If you haven't booked your cabin on the Live Like No One Else cruise, now's the time because it's 90 something percent

sold out you do not want to miss joining me the ramsey personalities and amazing guest entertainers for the ultimate debt-free celebration we'll be sailing the caribbean march 22nd through the 29th 2025 stopping at the incredible turks and caicos Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, and the Bahamas. Hurry to secure your spot with a $600 deposit today at ramseysolutions.com slash cruise. George Campbell Ramsey personality is my co-host today. Nine years ago, we got word that a friend of a friend, a young church planter at that time was 30 years old, that he had a small congregation that had kicked off and was booming, but had just kind of gotten the whole thing going up in Indiana. And we got word that his pregnant wife had been murdered in their home and reached out, got in touch, and began a friendship over

the years. And now Davey Blackburn is with us today. He's continued to be a friend and has a brand new book out called Nothing is Wasted, A True Story of Hope, Forgiveness, and Finding Purpose in Pain. Welcome back, my friend. Yeah, thank you, Dave. This is an honor. Thank you, George. Absolutely. Nine years later, this ends up as a book. Yeah. Wow.

That's got to be simultaneously fulfilling to talk through the ministry and what has happened out of this tragedy, this disaster, and also, God, just draining. I mean, I'm talking about this all the time, even though it's nine years ago. Yeah, it is. But it's also very cathartic, you know, especially to see how many people are healing because of it. Yeah. You know, every time we go and share the message, you find out that pain's the common denominator of life. Whether they've gone through this degree of pain, everyone has dealt with pain.

It's kind of the thing that equalizes the playing field for us as humans. And then also. I skirted over it, but take a second and tell the, you know, the thumbnail version of the thing that equalizes the playing field for us as humans and then also i skirted over it but take a second and tell the the you know the thumbnail version of the story you're 30 years old your wife's pregnant you got a little baby you went to the gym if i remember left for the gym on a tuesday morning three men were on a random crime spree in indianapolis broke into the home three doors down from me saw me leave for the gym that morning and decided to break into our home and amanda got caught up in

that. We had a 15 month old at the time and she was 13 weeks pregnant with our second. And she was shot three times. And when I came home, I found her and she was still breathing very laboriously, but unconscious. And when we got her to the hospital, the doctors revealed to me that she had three bullet wounds. That prognosis was very grim. And how long did she live after that? About 24 hours later, she was pronounced officially deceased. Okay. Yeah.

And the toddler was in the house. Yeah. He was in his crib the entire time, untouched, unharmed. So our world turned upside down and you went from a picture perfect little life so to speak to uh the opposite end of the spectrum in one morning at the gym right right so what was the next step out of all the grief when did you kind of go hey i need to share this message and nothing is wasted ministries began yeah well there was a long process right you know now looking back on it my counselor told me we want god to heal us in poof, but

he normally heals us in process. And so I had to go through a long healing journey. But being a pastor, I was immediately beginning to share the story. And unfortunately, because our story was such a national media story, I was also thrust in front of a couple of national television media outlets. And so I started sharing that story. Now, looking back on it, it was cathartic and helpful to begin to share that story because that's part of your healing to externalize the things that have gone on in your life and to be able to find where God is in that story. But I really had no choice. I had to

begin sharing that with my congregation. And as I did, I found that people with their own pain stepped forward and they were finding healing in the midst of whatever they were going through too. Wow. It's powerful. I don't care who you are or where you studied or how you grew up. You're 30 years old. Your wife gets shot three times and they leave the baby in the crib. That's got to change your relationship with God.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It got to be a little anger. There was a lot of anger. There was a lot of rage. There was a lot of confusion because my, my idea as a believer was as long as I'm following after God and I'm in the middle of his will, then everything's going to go well for me.

You know, I'll be healthy, wealthy and wise. Right. But then you find out, well, Benjamin Franklin's the one that said that. Scripture doesn't say that, right? And so then you look into scripture and you go, wow, actually the people who follow Jesus the closest, they had a lot of very tragic endings to their life. And so what it began to do is reorient for me who God really is, that his promises are actually a lot sweeter than the real shallow promises that I was holding onto. And that in the midst of difficulty, trauma, tragedy in our life, he is walking with us. And so I found that, you know, Elizabeth Elliot says there'll be situations that we go through that there's no explanation for why it happened, but God brings us something even greater and that's incarnation. He's walking with us. And so in the midst of wrestling with God,

the really deep, dark, despairing questions that I had to bring to God, he really showed up in profound ways that made it undeniable that he's not just real, but he also cares. He's a loving father and he wants to journey this valley with me. I seem to remember, and I may be wrong, you can correct me, that the phrase nothing wasted came pretty quick in the story, that nothing is wasted. Talk about where that came from, because that's the title of the book. Yeah. Well, while we were in the hospital, we were waiting on test results to come back. And I put on Pandora radio station at the foot of Amanda's bed, Elevation Worship. I knew she would want to listen to Elevation Worship if she could hear anything.

And Pandora is randomized. You don't get to choose what comes up, right? But the first song that came up was the song, Nothing is Wasted. And that was the first moment where we felt, I was sitting there with her sister, and we looked at each other. No words were necessary. We knew that God was stepping into that moment and he was bringing what scripture calls a peace that passes all understanding. And this is what we felt like he said. He said, this is not going to end the way that you want it to, but I promise you, I'm not going to waste this. And then later that week, as we were preparing for her funeral celebration of life service,

it reminded us of what she was doing as a business endeavor. She was refinishing furniture. She was going to all these antique shows all over Indianapolis. And she had asked me to go pick up furniture like I was American pickers off the side of the road that people had thrown out. And I remember looking at her the first time I did this and going, what are you going to do with this dresser? This is garbage. Nobody is going to buy this. And she said, Davey, trust me, give me a little time.

And I'm going to turn this into something beautiful. And she would over and over and over. And that week after she passed away, I felt like the Holy spirit said, Davey, trust me, give me a little time. And I'm going to turn this into something beautiful. And that's the cover of the book is Is the furniture being refinished? We actually got to, as a team, creatively direct that. And that's her sister that is modeling for that and refinishing that furniture. Very cool. So you eventually were able to forgive the guys, the men that did the murder. They were convicted finally.

They were convicted seven years later. It took seven years for it to go to trial. And I came out originally saying I've chosen to forgive because I was a pastor. I'd preached messages on forgiveness. I knew the right thing to do and the right thing to say, but now I was confronted with this for the first time in this kind of a gravity.

And so I knew that forgiveness was a decision, but I didn't feel like forgiving. And a couple of things helped me on that journey. You know, the first thing that really helped me on that journey is realizing that unforgiveness was going to destroy me and it was going to destroy the people that I love. You know, it's like, it's like a cancer that just rocks. Your toddler will pick up on it every time you walk in the room. If you don't let God transform your pain, you'll transfer it onto other people. Oh, there's a line. And so I didn't want that to happen. So forgiveness was more for me. Releasing that bitterness

is, you know, and trusting God that he's the better Avenger, that he's going to, he's going to ultimately make this right. No matter what happens here on earth, he's the one that settles accounts. And then I also remembered the way that I heard the gospel was a very unconventional way. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, Gardendale First Baptist. I went to this Easter play there and the pastor comes out and he said, Jesus was murdered for my sin and for your sin. So at eight years old, that's how I heard the gospel. Jesus was murdered for my sin and for your sin. Then at 30 years old, my wife is murdered.

Well, in that moment at that Easter play, the scene starts back up and Jesus on the cross says, Father, forgive them for they don't know what they're doing. And God drew me back to that moment and said, hey, are you willing to be a conduit of forgiveness the same way that Jesus offered forgiveness to you? Wow. It's powerful. The book is Nothing is Wasted by our friend Davey Blackburn.

A true story of hope, forgiveness, and finding purpose in pain. It's got a wonderful ministry helping people that have been through all kinds of trauma that's in 200 churches across America. Be sure and check all of that out. You can find him at Davey Blackburn and learn all you need to know. Nothing is wasted because it's not. Love you, my friend. Yeah, thanks for stopping by.

Proud of you for telling this story. Thank you, guys. This is The Ramsey Show. Folks, changing your family tree takes more than rice and beans and side hustles. It's also about transferring the big financial risks off your family by having the right kinds of coverage in place. That's why my team created the Coverage Checkup Quiz. It only takes about five minutes to find out what types of insurance you need and don't need to protect your finances.

Make this quiz one of your regular checkups, starting right now at ramseysolutions.com slash checkup. That's ramseysolutions.com slash check up. George Camel Ramsey personality is my co-host. He also is my co-cruiser. He and the other Ramsey personalities and my wife, Sharon, will be spending seven days on the high seas with you. If you get one of the last few remaining cabins. We're going to be on an almost brand-new Holland America high-end,

very nice ship, and we will be going to Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas. No one will be on the ship except Ramsey people, so you're stuck with other people trying to get out of debt. Boy, can you imagine bringing someone that did not like us onto that cruise and sticking them on there for seven days? That would be hell for them. That's a good revenge plot right there.

Because we've got, like, you know, we've got events and speaking. We will be the only entertainment on there. Well, and the people we're bringing with us, which includes. Free cruise. I'm buying. And they show up, and they go, oh, my gosh. See what you did. Yeah.

Stephen Curtis Chapman will be with us, a Dove Award winner, cruise i'm buying and they show up and they go oh my gosh see what you did yeah steven curtis chapman will be with us a dove award winner multi uh grammy award winner uh steven i was with him the other night and he told the story he got inducted into the grand old opry the other day one of the first christian artists to ever get inducted he was very emotional about that don't blame him a bit that's quite an honor he'll be with us dina carter country music star will be with us remember strawberry wine she'll be with us. Dina Carter, country music star, will be with us. Remember Strawberry Wine? She'll be with us. And a bunch of other folks, including Manit Chauhan from the Food Channel,

will be doing a little food demonstration. We'll all be doing different speaking. Deloney, he'll be helping your mental health on the high seas and so forth. So I think Coleman's going to help you with seasickness, actually. Is that his specialty now? That's his specialty. No, I'm kidding. Handing out Dramamine.

There we go. That's good. He's the Dramamine guy. Yeah, I'm looking at the lineup. It's just amazing how many friends we get to bring on board. Yeah. Magicians, comedians, songwriters. I don't know why there's any seats left for anybody else with all the people we're bringing. That's true.

We're bringing a crew. Yeah, it's a crew. So everybody wanted to help on this. It's kind of amazing. So there we go. All right, the Live Like No One Else crews, because if you're not on Baby Step 4 or beyond, you shouldn't come. We tell people not to be going on vacation and all that kind of stuff while you're in debt. And we're. All right. The live like no one else cruise, because if you're not on Baby Step 4 or beyond, you shouldn't come.

We tell people not to be going on vacation and all that kind of stuff while you're in debt. And we're not hypocrites. You shouldn't even buy our cruise. So we want you to come and celebrate, though. If you've gotten 4 and beyond, it's a good way to do it. There's a few cabins left. And you know what's left after that, George? What's that?

FOMO. Ooh. Catch the next one if it ever happens. Who knows? I wouldn't count on it. Ramseysolutions.com slash cruise. Yep, we're doing it. And fun on the high seas.

Jacob is in Spokane, Washington. Jacob, what's up in your world? Hey, not much. How's it going over there? Better than I deserve, man. How can we help? Good. Hey, just want to say i love you guys and uh i've been listening to you since 2007 when my my teacher showed us

your program so and now he's my financial advisor wow back in high school yeah you went through the high school curriculum cool almost 20 years ago cool how can we help? So I just finalized the divorce and I owe her $150,000, which is her half of the equity of the house. And I have 70,000 saved up. And it looks like a HELOC might be the only way I can go because I owe her the rest of the money by the end of August, basically. So I know I'm a little bit behind, but we had kind of made plans to make payments up until the end of August, basically. So I know I'm a little bit behind, but we had kind of made plans to make payments

up until the end of the divorce. So she changed it over and said that she wanted to buy a house. So, yeah, I was just wondering if there's any other options other than HELOC. Okay, what's the balance on the first mortgage? $110. What's the value of the home? About $43030, 440.

What's the interest rate on the first? 2.25. Okay. So you would borrow 80 on a HELOC, and you make what? 130. Okay. All right, so I don't tell people to borrow money, but you're already in debt. You're in debt to your ex-wife, and we're going to change that to another kind of debt called a HELOC.

And so you're not borrowing money, you're changing the money. You're changing the type of debt. You follow me? Yep. And so, yeah, that's what I would do. The only other thing I can think of, Jacob, is why are you keeping the house? It's in a great school district for my kids. Are you keeping the kids?

I love the house. We're doing 50-50, but, yeah, I want to keep them in the school district and just want to keep them from having to move back and forth. One's four and a half and one is like five months. Neither one of them care. You're the only one that cares. Well, I also don't think I can sell a house and get the money in time. Is the divorce final?

Yes. It's finalized and then I just made sure that I could get the loan. And then as I'm going through it, I'm like, I just decided to call you guys and just see if there's any other options that I could look into. You're under a time crunch, but here's what I would do. I wouldn't just go, well, I'm just going to stay in the house forever. What you could do is do the HELOC, then list the house. When it sells, you immediately pay off the HELOC

and take whatever's left as your new down payment. Yeah. Here's the thing. You could keep the house if you want, but most of the time in 30 years of financial counseling with folks that they're in this situation, they keep the house for all the wrong reasons. And when you tell me you're keeping a house for a four-year-old and a five-month-old, that's the wrong reason because they don't care. They truly don't care. You're just being emotional in the middle of this horrible catastrophe called a divorce. And I don't blame you for that because your heart's broken and you want to try to be a good dad and all that kind of stuff. But you just want to, you know, I'm not

sure keeping the house is a smart thing to do, but if you want to get a heat lock just to get her off your back that's fine um but honestly where you are five years from now should be a completely different world than where you are today and it's sure it probably is going to involve a different house because your next wife probably doesn't want to live in the house where your ex or her ex your ex-wife used to live in the same bedroom so just doubt it i just doubt it i just that's just humans been dealing with them a long time it helps to move on in that way to get rid of the physical and place you had a 12 year old and 14 year old and they had friends that were deep and you've been there for 15 years and a lot of ties in the community that's fine but a five-month-old does not have any feelings except food and wet diapers these are the feelings they have and um you know we've got babies and the grandbabies in the family right

now and they need two things a dry butt and a full belly and that's pretty much what they need and most humans that's that's about all they need. Yeah. That's it. Most adults, that's a good day. Good day. But, I mean, honestly, I'm picking on you, Jacob. You're going through a hard time. But it's okay to sell this house. It doesn't make you a bad dad. And I'm challenging the decision-making paradigm you're using to make the decision.

But it's okay to take out a HELOC, and it's okay to keep the house, and it's okay to work it through with the numbers you've got so that's what you wanted to know and you always get more than you want to know when you call here that's how it works folks so because i'm really here to help you not just help you do what you want to do there's a difference and it's free so you gave them more than they even paid for on top of that that's impressive you got a lot for that price. Well, all of you listening to the show on the YouTube or the podcast, the show's about to end. The last 40 minutes of the show is now on the Ramsey Network app. The Ramsey Network app is

completely free. It does not cost you a dime. You can listen to the whole show or watch the whole show on the Ramsey Network app. But the last 40 minutes of the show, as of this week, we are moving over to the Ramsey Network app for a lot of different reasons. But change is about the only thing you can count on around technology, and so it's changing. Those of you that listen on radio, on talk radio, you're going to keep getting exactly whatever your city's been getting not changing a thing there so we continue to do the show but uh again if you want the last 40 minutes of the show the thing to do is go to the app store or google play download the ramsey network app there's a lot of cool stuff there including you can email us and we'll be answering some questions from the app you can search all of the calls. We've got them logged back for several years, and we built an algorithm in there.

And so you can search a call by a certain subject, find three or four times we've answered on that subject and listen to it. Like maybe should I get a HELOC when I'm getting a divorce? That could come up. You know, it's like it's come up before, I promise. So you're going to get the same little speech. And so you can get stuff answered and you don't have to wait through you know sit through five hours worth of listening just to

get the answer you're looking for but the whole thing is there all uh all the segments are there every day on the ramsey network app including the last segment that begins in just a few moments and uh again if you're on the Ramsey Network app. But the podcast world and the YouTube world, the show is ending for you now. And we really appreciate you being with us. I was so glued into the app, I didn't pay attention, Dave. I just searched horse.

Don't recommend searching horse in the Ramsey Network app. Did you come up? Find out for yourself. Yeah, I'm right there, Dave. Thanks, team. Thanks for putting that in there Go check it out Ramsey Network app In the App Store

Google Play George Mistake Unbelievable Big mistake This is the Ramsey Show Hey, you're still here? What are you doing? You do know that the rest of today's show is playing right now over on the Ramsey Network app, right?

All you got to do to finish the episode is search Ramsey Network in the App Store, Google Play Store, or just click the link in the show notes to download the app for free. Yep, you heard me right, for free. Then right there on the home screen, you can watch the rest of today's show. Bada bing, bada boom. All right, I'm getting out of here. Enjoy. We'll see you on the app.