The Ramsey Show - To Build Wealth You Must First Change Your Behavior

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

💵 Sign-up for EveryDollar today - The simplest way to budget for your life! George Kamel & Dr. John Delony answer your questions and discuss: "Setting boundaries with friends and family," "What's the best way to invest my money?" "How can I pay off $460K of student loan debt?" "Setting kids up for success," Why you have to change your behavior if you want to win with money. 📞 Have a question for the show? Call 888-825-5225 Weekdays from 2-5pm ET or click here! Support Our Sponsors: Eight Sleep BetterHelp Zander Insurance Neighborly Next Steps ❤️ Money & Marriage Getaway is back! Get your tickets today! Listen to more from Ramsey Network 🎙️ The Ramsey Show   🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 💰 George Kamel 💼 The Ken Coleman Show 📈 EntreLeadership Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Девочка-пай Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, joined by bestselling author Dr. John Deloney, and we are here for you, America, taking your calls at 888-825-5225. You call in. We'll talk about your life, your money. We'll help you take the right next step and hopefully give you some hope. Baker kicks us off in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Baker, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Hey, how's it going, guys? Great. How are you? Hey, I'm doing well. Hey, quick question for you guys. I've been following the Ramsey Solutions now for a couple months, and I feel like I've made some pretty good progress on my debt.

And so now I just kind of feel like I'm at the age now where friends are getting married, I have bachelor parties, I have to travel a lot to visit family and friends and that sort of thing. And I feel like every time I put a good chunk of change towards my debt, I feel like something else pops up. And I just feel like for the rest of the year, I just have so many things that I have committed to and feel like I need to commit to. And it's kind of like I take, you know,

a step forward and then another step back. And it's like, it's just starting to kind of eat at me. And I just don't know how to necessarily go about that with family and friends. How old are you? I am 27, turning 28 soon. Okay. And you're single? No, I do have a girlfriend, and that's kind of why I started following the Ramsey Solutions,

because I'm like, I'd like to get engaged this year. She somehow wants to say yes to me. So, yeah, I just want to start setting up my life. All right, I want you to say yes to me. And so, yeah, I just want to start setting up my life. All right. I want you to practice something with me. Are you ready? We're gonna do this in front of all of America. Yeah. All right. Repeat after me. You have to say it exactly as I say it. Okay. Yep. You ready? No. All right. Your turn. No. All right, that's it. Ta-da. Nailed it. Nailed it.

Hey, this is the rest of your life. The rest of your life, other people are going to want you to be a part of special things. They're going to invite you to things. They're going to include you. They're going to demand that you be a part of the picture they've created for their own world.

And for the rest of your life, you're going to have to decide, what are my priorities? Is it getting married? Is it living a peaceful life? Or is it being the life of the party and showing up to every single thing, even though I can't afford it? I don't have time for it. I'm exhausted. I'm sick.

All those things. You're going to have to make that decision. If you learn that now before you get married, I'm telling you right now, the rest of your life is going to be so much more peaceful, but it is hard. There's not an easy way to do it. Yeah, no. And that's exactly where I've been at. You know, I feel like I make pretty good money, but I kind of just now realize I'm not taking any steps forward where I'm not overly struggling. But now, like you said, it's kind of one of those things where now i don't want to go spend that much money to go on a trip and commit to all this stuff or sometimes i'd rather

just stand tall stand tall and throw your head back throw your shoulders back and be like nope i'm not gonna make this one i love you guys i hope you'll have so much fun without me but i'm gonna have to sit this one out oh come on bro you suck you i know man i'm not gonna be able to do it george and i were just talking about this off air i mean george and i contrary to the the joke i'm always playing on air is one of my good friends we're secretly friends openly enemies very secretly friends we don't tell anybody but um both of us were just talking about how we thought when you got x dollars that all of your problems go away that you can just get the house that you want and the cars that you want and the things that you want and the trips that you want.

And it's just not true. And it sounds like you're experiencing some of that also. Like, I just thought when I got to be 27, I had a good job, that I could just go to these things. And you find yourself still having to make hard choices. And they want you to rent the tux and then buy the tickets. And then the Airbnb, we got to split. And that's going to be another $300.

And then all three friends are getting married this year. Cool, cool, cool. And Dan's cousin isn't even going to pitch in because Dan's cousin's an idiot. The whole thing, man. You just got to make some hard choices. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's exactly where I'm at. I mean, crap.

To go to a bachelor party, you got to fly. Then to go to a wedding, you got to fly. You got a couple of those a year. I mean, all my time is spent going and doing stuff for other people. And I love those people and I'm so happy. I'm like, they asked me to be a part of it, but yeah, like you said, now it's just a lot of my money goes towards these commitments where I want to be able to, you know, get engaged, have a wedding and get a house the next couple of years. But yeah, I need to make sacrifices. That's right. As we've often quoted on the show, you need to choose guilt over resentment

because what happens is you do all these things, you're going to resent your buddies because you're still in debt. You're trying to save up for the ring. You're making all their dreams come true. And I'd rather you choose guilt and go, man, I hate that I can't go, but this is what's best for me right now. And if they're really good friends, they're going to understand. I had friends that couldn't make it to my wedding and my festivities and the bachelor party. And I was like, totally cool, man. Doesn't change our friendship one bit. Can I tell you a morbid exercise?

Now, again, you got to understand that my family is kind of different than most families. My dad's homicide detect. We talk about death all the time. But I actually went through an exercise about six months ago, writing down for myself, this is just all for me, which one of my closest friend's parents' funerals would I attend? I was just trying to look at over the next 15 years, as we're all getting old, how many funerals would I go to,

would I leave, would I hop on a plane for? And A, it was way more than I thought, and all of that comes with a cost. And A, it was way more than I thought. And all of that comes with a cost. And B, it also was pretty clarifying because I was able to say, now I'm going to call in on this one. I'm going to send this guy a letter. I'm going to write him a note that tells him what his mom meant to me. But similar for you, man, a video of you texted to all your buddies while they're at a bachelor party and be like, I'm missing it. I can't believe y'all are having so much fun. I hope y'all have a blast. That's it. That's good. That's good. And George

mentioned this. It's actually not fair to your friends to resent them because they invited you and you didn't have enough courage to say no because you couldn't afford it. That's not cool. It's not their fault. So tell them no. And they get mad. That's fine. They're going to get the feelings hurt. That's fine. Go to the wedding or don't go to the wedding. Send a, send a funny card that you, I don't know. I'm just going to make up stuff now, but, um, yeah, you're gonna have to say no brother. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, Hey, seriously, that's all the info I need. So thanks guys. You guys have been like awesome last couple months and me and my brother have been listening to you guys and we definitely want to make our lives better because of you guys. And so I just can't say thanks enough for taking the time to talk to me.

Absolutely, man. I'm proud of you. That's a sign of maturity is saying no. It's not a sign that you're weak or that you do just grow up, be better, spend the money. Who cares? Put it on the credit card. That's a sign of weakness, and it's a sign of immaturity. So I'm proud of you for taking this step.

And as you look at your budget, it's okay to still enjoy life. We're not telling you you for taking this step. And, you know, as you look at your budget, it's okay to still enjoy life. We're not telling you can't do anything. But if you've got a priority to pay off debt, you've got to make sure you're setting that money aside to pay off the debt and then set the budget. Hey, I'm going to be able to go to one wedding this year. Which one is it going to be? All right, it's going to be my best, best, best friend.

But when that random guy you kind of knew, but he doesn't have as many friends, or he's asking you, you're going to ask him, be like, hey, dude, sorry, can't make it. Or at 27, you're starting to get invited to your buddy's second wedding and you can just send a note that's like that's cool i'll catch the next one i'll catch the next one uh i'll sit this one out i'll get number three you burnt yeah exactly there it is yeah um but george we can laugh about it. Telling people we love no is hard. Whether that's parents asking for money, whether that is brothers and sisters asking for, you know, I need you to come home and do this, you got to take care of this, or friends just saying we can be a part of our wedding celebration. When you have goals in mind, when you have dreams, they always come at a cost.

Well, John, you have a great article on how to set boundaries on the Ramsey Solutions website. So we'll make sure to drop that in the show notes. It's a great resource for people that step-by-step walks them through how to do this practically and with kindness, but also firmly for your own benefit. So that's a good segment there, John. I learned a lot there. Thank you for that. More calls coming up. 888-825-5225. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. People have been asking for it, John. Back by popular demand, the money and marriage getaway is back. It's happening this fall, October 24th through the 26th.

Join Dr. John Deloney and Rachel Cruz for a weekend away right here in Nashville, Tennessee, right at the Ramsey Solutions headquarters at our brand-new event center. You get two and a half days of teaching focused on communication, intimacy, and money. And let me tell you, this is the opposite of a boring marriage retreat, if there ever was one. It kind of gets off the rails. Mostly because John's involved. Rachel keeps it on the rails. John's goal is to get it off the rails, and that is worth the price of admission. Rachel kind of gets off the rails. Mostly because John's involved. Rachel keeps it on the rails. John's goal is to get it off the rails.

And that is worth the price of admission. Rachel never even gets on the rails. She's in a pretty nice car out in the parking lot. She's doing fine. She's doing fine. But this is a really great event. It was a special time last year. I got to speak at this event.

Don't know if they'll invite me back. 100% no chance. No chance. Okay. There it is. From the horse's mouth. Well, there's going to be lots of Q&A, lots of time to get your answers to real hard questions. And they bring levity to it all, which is so fun.

You and your spouse will walk away with the tools you need to build a deeper connection and win with money together. Platinum tickets already sold out. There's a few VIP tickets left, which include meet and greets with John and Rachel. So go get your tickets before they're gone. Tickets start at $799. That's per couple, and they make it an amazing experience. Tickets start at $799. That's per couple. And this is, they make it an amazing experience. Our live events team is world-class. Regardless if you enjoy John's talks, the live event itself is worth coming for. So go to ramseysolutions.com

slash events and lock in your tickets, start to plan your lodging, get it in the budget. We'd love to see you guys there in October. All right, let's go to the line. Samantha awaits in Dallas, Texas. What's going on, Samantha? Hi. My question is, I'm eight weeks pregnant, and I'm going to have a baby. Sorry, I'm so nervous. You're doing great. I'm going to have my third child mid-September.

And my husband and I, we've been working the baby steps. We have a $1,000 emergency fund. We've paid off about $15,000 in debt already. We've cash flowed emergencies and things like that. So we have been we have been, um, really at it. And, um, my question is, I know in the baby steps, we're supposed to, I guess when, when there's a pregnancy, we're supposed to stack up like cash and we're supposed to stop, um, the baby step two um but do we only pay the minimum payment or is it that we're supposed to pay you know we're able to pay a little bit over just because there is interest

on on these things so i think i'm just really nervous no about the interest continuing to build up and um no i understand and that's a hard thing when you look at that interest building up and you want to attack that debt, but man, there's this life change coming for the third time. And we want to make sure you're prepared for that first, because we don't want you to go further into debt. And what tends to happen is people are working on it at snowball. They're not saving for the kid. They have a thousand bucks. And then the medical bills start to hit, Or there's an unexpected thing that happens and mom and baby don't get to come home the next day. And that's the stuff that we want to make sure you're prepared for. And that's why I would say

minimum payments until baby and mom are home safe. And then what likely happens is you guys have a giant pile of cash to throw at the debt once you're home. Or in my house, I thought that a package of diapers would last me a good few weeks. I didn't realize babies poop 400 times a day. And so that got way, way more expensive than I was expecting. Okay. You're like, okay.

This was largely unhelpful. What's your household income and how much debt do you have? So I bring home, I protect about $4,000. And then my husband, his W-2 said he made $100,000 last year. But his income varies. He's hourly, an electrician. So like right now, he's working 60 60 hours he has overtime and it's great and we have more to throw at the deck and then there are some months where um he's you know

right at that 40 or 48 hour mark and so it's always different but um yeah so he last year he made 100 and it's continued to go up throughout the years. Wonderful. And then I make about $71,000. So you guys are bringing home, like, you're making $171,000 and bringing home probably close to $1,120,000? Yeah, well, I just started earning this. I've had this job for about six months. So my salary is new, but yes. And so we're throwing, I do the budget as if he's only working the

the 48 hours because that's usual and then if he just happens to work more um i mean all of that goes to debt how much more debt do you have um so have, I think I said 12,000 when I called in, but I went back and looked. So I have $7,000 left on our SUV. Um, and we should, if he keeps working the overtime with things in order, it should be paid off by next month. Um, so we should be done with that. And that's going to free up an extra $400 a month and then um i have about twelve thousand seven hundred in a credit card and then i have thirteen thousand dollars in a private uh student loan that i took out and then

about seven thousand dollars in federal student loan um but that's deferred because i just graduated so it's okay i just got the login so you've got about 40 grand in consumer debt yes okay well this is a solvable problem making 170 and you'll free up that suv payment but i would just i would just stock up cash and you're gonna be able to save up a good amount over you know six seven months of just saving and then baby and mom are home safe, and you guys attack that debt with, you know, the $20,000 you have sitting in that savings account. Okay. So you're going to make some progress on the back end. Yeah, go for it.

So I was able to stay home for a year with both kids, my first two. And then this would be the first one that I'm even considering putting in daycare just so that I can get back at it, work for a few months, and then come home. I don't know. I feel really uneasy about it. I don't know if you have any encouragement or advice on that. So you're going to probably continue to work and put all three in daycare? Oh, well, so I have my daughter really young, so she's already in grade school. Oh, great. And then our child, my second child, he's in daycare already, but he didn't start daycare until he was about a year and a half, close to two.

And so this would be the first that i'd be leaving in daycare so it's more the the emotional level of leaving the children and going to work versus the financial the baby yes because my son's already in daycare so it's more the new baby i just the thought of doing it freaks me out but then i'm also don't want to most of it is my day anyways which I know you guys would say it's our debt and my husband's super supportive he he doesn't look at it that way I think it's just me but I think I feel the two pieces of advice the two pieces of advice I could give you is number one you're going to get 5,000 different opinions the only two that matter

are you and your husband sitting down and making a choice for your home. The second one is, is it's really tempting to feel like whatever decision you make is forever. And it's just simply not. So if you want to try this out for, for, for a month, try it out for 30 days and figure out how you feel, how your baby's doing, how your finances are doing, how your husband's doing. Youall sit down and have that conversation and then go month by month for the first three or four months. No decision here is forever. Okay. And just give yourself a lot of grace, keep your hands open and just know that some of your family members are going to be like, oh my gosh, she's the worst mom ever. And then some of your friends are going to be like, oh my gosh, you really would consider not going back to this job.

You make so much money. You're so lucky. You just graduated. You got that degree and now you're staying at home. All of that's going to hit. It's what works for you and your family. And what works for me and my family is different than what works for my friend George and Whitney.

And so it's just different and everybody's got an opinion and none of them really matter except for you and your husbands. Thank you. Is that cool? Thank you. Yeah, that's perfect. I feel like I just needed to hear that maybe. No, you're good. You're good. None of these decisions are forever. So hold them really loosely and do what works best for each of you in different seasons. And maybe you go, hey, once we're out of debt, I want to stay home. That's right.

And that becomes the timeline. That's the thing you aim for. And there's no right or wrong ways to go about this. It's what's right or wrong for your family right now. And that can change. So thanks for the call. We're excited for you. Congrats on baby number three.

We are rooting for you. You're going to be fine no matter what. This is The Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This is the season for Halloween. It's October. We're wearing costumes and we're wearing masks. If you haven't started planning your costume yet, get on it. And while you're thinking about it, I want you to be honest. A lot of us hide ourselves. We hide our true selves behind costumes and masks all the time. We do this at work. We do this around our friends.

We do this around our families. We even do this when we look at ourselves in the mirror. I know because I've been there multiple times in my life, and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding behind masks and costumes all the time, if you find yourself hiding from your true self, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can be honest, where you can talk to somebody else and reflect and learn, and you can accept all the parts of yourself over time and start

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel, joined by Dr. John D'Loni. If you like this show, be sure to check out all the other shows on The Ramsey Network. I've got a YouTube channel that is doing wonderfully, John, and not to be outdone, but the Dr. John Deloney show recently has popped off. It is number three out of all the podcasts in the world right now on Apple Podcasts. Yeah, it's pretty wild to

see it up there, man. That's mind-blowing. It's pretty wild, that's for sure. You're just sitting right next to Joe Rogan right now on the charts, which is fantastic. So congrats to you and the hard-working team that pulled this off it's mostly the hard-working team but it's good man well your face is on it at least a fun time a lot of your faces actually it's a cool you guys updated the artwork yeah i woke up this morning with a text message from the guy who heads the network team and uh it's kind of hard to wrap your head around it yeah it's a cool achievement and it means people are getting helped.

And so I love that it keeps moving up the charts as more and more people listen. So go ahead and check it out wherever you listen to podcasts and share it with a friend. Let's get it to number one by the end of the weekend. How about that? Don joins us up next in Minneapolis. Don, welcome to the show. Hi.

How are you guys today? Doing well. How are you? Well, hopefully we'll get better after today. We got you, brother. What's up? Alright. I got no debt of nothing vehicles. I got two kids. I got them

through college. I'm going to be 67 here in about a week. And I'm looking at either semi-return or return but still going to work and i just want to know uh on these annuities i've been listening to you guys and i want to know where i can get a hold of these these investors i got around here and talk to in the banks everything just i don't know they don't bring it up if they don't have it or don't have no knowledge on it. I don't know.

What's your goal? What's your goal? Do you have a pile of money you want to invest or what? Yeah, I want to make my money make money instead of investing in something where somebody else is going to clean me out. So you're worried that a financial advisor is going to kind of trick you and take all your money? Well, I don't know about the financial part.

Two nights ago I listened to you guys, and there was a 50-year-old lady on there, and she trusted a guy, and he cleaned her out $600,000. Yeah, I was on the phone for that one. That was heartbreaking. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to get away from here. Around here, that's a lot of people. People don't work. They just want to take your mind.

Well, there's some good apples out there. There's some great, great folks out there. That's one of those outside of the bell curve situations that she worked with a friend, and the friend just absolutely didn't trust me bro just absolutely um didn't stab her in the back stabbed her in the face and yeah that just is that's not common is what i would say so i would not hold on and be fearful of of that and actually dave worked 30 years ago to create a plan just for people like you um so that they have somebody that they trust. Because it's scary, man. It's scary to trust somebody with your money.

You know what I mean? That's your legacy. That's your family tree that you're going to leave to your kids, right? Right, right. It's something to fall back on. I mean, you know, if something happens, you know, you can come home and you got cash. You don't have to worry about go borrowing money and everything.

Because I don't do that. Well, how much money do you have? Well, I figured it up here. I got about $460,000. In what? That's between checking and my CDs, and I got one annuity when I had for the kids. Okay. And that's all I have.

And so you're wanting to invest the majority of that to make you money instead of just sitting there in these accounts. Yeah. I'm only getting 1.5% and a half a percent on checking, and the CDs are only getting 1.5%. Oh, gosh. Dude. I mean, I'd move it all to a high-yield savings account today, and you'll do better. You'll get four or five.

You don't need a financial advisor for that. Right. Well, where should I go with that? Well, we don't have a trusted partner in that space, but I use one called Marcus by Goldman Sachs. I know Rachel uses one called Ally. And what you're looking for here is an FDIC insured or NCUA insured bank. That's for credit unions. And that's going to protect your money up to $250,000 per depositor per account. And my account actually came through my Smart Investor Pro. I asked him, I need a high-yield savings account that you trust, and he sent me a link, and that's the one I use. And so there's a number of them, and they're online, but, man, they're pretty magical.

I just got my tax statement for the year, and we did pretty well. We made some good money on the side there. Yeah, well, that's what I would like to do. Could you mail me something like that? We can get you a link. We can have our team send you. Mail me all $600,000 of your dollars, and I'll send you $20,000 or $30,000 back for sure. I'll get a link to our phone screen or eBoo, and she'll make sure to get that to you.

How does that sound? Yeah, that would be great and long term you need to invest this money because four or five percent is great for temporary savings but for long-term investing you know if you look at the track record of the s&p 500 which is just the 500 largest u.s companies in the stock market 10 to 12 percent is what it's been averaging over the long term now some years it's been down this year it's back up and so you don't want to look at it in tiny chunks. And so how much of this money do you need to live for your monthly expenses? Is this just extra money?

This is just extra. I still got my job. This year is just my backup plan for down the road if I totally retire, if I want to just sell everything, liquidate, and then move on and travel. Do you have any retirement accounts? Yeah, this here, then I got my pension at work. Okay, so does the pension cover your bills, or is that just part of what you're doing? Yeah, it would.

Great. So if this is just gravy money, you can just leave it alone in the stock market. And if you get in touch with a smart investor pro at ramseysolutions.com, they can guide you in choosing some great funds, recommending a bigger strategy, and they don't make any moves without you being involved. So they might make recommendations, but it's up to you. So whenever people call in and say, the financial advisor did this, they're not doing anything without you approving it and saying, this is what I want to do. You've got to stay in the driver's seat. And they also, I've been in some of those meetings with financial advisors when they

kind of pat me on the head and treat me like I'm a little bit dumb and a little bit young. I'm a little bit dumb. I'm pretty old now. But it's this sense of like, oh, sweet boy, we'll take care of it. And I hate that. I hate it. I earned this money. I want your help.

And so the thing that I love about the SmartVestor is one of the cornerstones. By the way, Dave and the trusted team fire them all the time. If they're not doing it the right way, they're not going to carry Dave Ramsey's name on them, right? They're not going to carry the Ramsey Solutions stamp, the seal on there. But they have a heart of a teacher. What does that mean? We say that all the time. That means they're going to sit down and explain to you what they're doing and why they're doing it, and then get your input on why that is. My SmartVestor Pro taught me, walked me through, and said, here's what I'm

going to do. These are the guidelines. And then I was sitting by Dave. We were having a conversation and he said, yeah, I'm not doing X, Y, and Z. I called my smart investor pro and said, Hey man, uh, I don't want to do X, Y, and Z. And he goes, all right, cool. Right. So it was, it's a partnership. We're working together, but he's teaching me how this whole thing works. And I'm not in the dark in my own life. right right you know that's that's what i want think of it this way instead of handing your money to somebody who's driving the car a smart investor pro gets in the passenger side while you're driving and they're telling you where to go where to turn why you might want to go this way but you're still driving and it's scary at first but man over the long haul you

feel much more in control of your own life. Right, right. I hope that helps, Don. We'll make sure to get you those resources as well. I'll have Eboo pick back up, and we'll get you a link to the Ramsey Solutions site where you can get connected with a SmartVestor Pro, and we'll get you a link to one of those high-yield savings accounts so you can start moving money over there and have it. You'll make 3x what you're making right now. And that's a big piece of the puzzle.

Right now, we're at record savings rates for your general savings accounts. So if your bank is offering 0.01%, that sucks. Leave. Leave. So anything beyond your checking account money. They're ripping you off because they're making a huge amount of money on the gap between what they're offering you. Well, and the interest rates on debt right now is astronomical. Right. And so the banks are making great money, but they're not passing it on to the consumer. And one of the great things about some of these online high

yield savings accounts is they have less overhead. And so they're able to pass on more higher interest rates than your traditional brick and mortar bank. So I've got both. I think it's really wise to have a local bank that you can trust, a credit union, a community bank that you can walk into and talk to a human. But for storing savings, you can go with the high yield savings account. So great question, Don. I'm proud of you. You're doing really well. And I love that you're thinking really intentionally about what to do with this giant pile of money. It's a good problem to have. This is The Ramsey Show. One of the questions I get all the time is, which life insurance company should I use for my term life policy?

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has made the process easy and convenient. Call them at 800-356-4282 or visit zander.com for instant online quotes. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Mason joins us in Idaho. What's going on, Mason? Hey, how's it going?

Thanks for having me. Absolutely. How can we help today? I've got a question. I'm going through lineman school in the fall, and then after you get out of lineman school, you have a four-year apprentice, and you usually travel around to wherever they send you for four years. So most people just buy a fifth wheel and live out of that for four years.

So I was wondering, is it okay, since you're living out of four years, to get a loan on it and pay it off? Or should you buy a cheap one and then save up and pay cash for it next year? Do you know what show you're calling? Yeah. Yeah. What do you think we're going to say? Pay cash for it.

Ta-da! Why are you wanting to take out a loan? Or why do you feel like you have to? Just because of the price of those. Yeah. And I don't have enough to pay for the school cash. Remind me, can you not rent in your area? What was the purpose of living in the RV?

People usually don't do the rentals because you move around. You can move every, depends on who you're with, but every three to six to eight months or four years. So the cost to buy one over four years compared to renting in the house while always moving, that's kind of why people do it. And I would tell you, if you continue to do financial things based on what quote unquote most people are doing, you're going to remain broke.

I don't know anything about the lineman industry up in Idaho. I can tell you it sounds very similar to the oil fields in West Texas where I lived for a long time. And those guys seasonally make an astounding amount of money and they go buy $150,000 trucks and they buy big RVs and they end up with buying, putting this money into depreciating assets. They end up with nothing. And then they have to wait until the next bust is over and the next boom kicks up. So all I have to say is swim upstream on this one, man.

Scratch and claw. Get the crummiest camper that you can safely live in that you can buy with cash and just save it up. I promise you on the back end, it's going to be better. And everyone's going to make fun of you. We know what you're making, bro. What are you doing? Fine. Cool. I don't owe anybody any money. That's kind of how I do my life. And just swim upstream. And you're going to look up in five years and the thought of borrowing money on a depreciating asset is going to seem silly to you then even though i know it makes in your head it makes sense right now and the worst part mason is what's going to happen is two years from now you're going

to call us back and say what do i do i'm underwater on an rv and i can't sell it i owe 50 it's only worth 30 and i say that because we took that call this week. And I don't want that for you or your future. And so I'm going to find a different solution. Do you know how long these are going to be, the contracts, as you enter a new city? It depends because with your apprenticeship, you have to get certain hours in different fields. So you could stay with a company if they have enough hours in each field for a year or something. But if don't, you just get bumped to the next, you don't have a choice of where you go. You just get bumped to the next company. So you can get your certain hours in that certain work. I would just go for a, maybe a shorter term lease when you rent somewhere and go,

all right, I'm going to do six months. And after that, I might go month to month. If I think things might change rapidly, or I'm going to find someone else to take over my lease. These are all things that I've done. Go to some of these places that are so overbuilt with apartment complexes. And that might not be in all of your areas, but go to the front desk and say, I'm a lineman. I may be here three months. I may be here six months. I'll pay $150 extra a month to go month to month out the gate. I will always pay my bills. I'm going to be on time. I'm not going to cause a ruckus here. And they may just sign you up. And then you get to sleep in an actual bed, not in something with wheels on it.

Okay. That makes sense. But just stamp that on your soul. I don't borrow money. I'm just a guy who doesn't borrow money. And what that does is it forces you to figure out other options. And it's astounding how many other options there can be sometimes. Sometimes there's not.

Sometimes it's just I got to take five jobs and not sleep for the next three months. And it's awful. But often there are some solutions out there that are just contrary to what everyone else is doing. And that's the hardest thing to do. When all your buddies are going one way and you're like, I'm actually going to go over here. You could get an RV. It'll be so much cheaper. Yeah, except you're underwater on this depreciating asset, and you can't sell it when you want to get out of it.

So thanks for the call, man. I hope you take debt off the table, and you'll get real creative once you do that. Hunter is in Charleston, West Virginia. Hunter, welcome to The Ramsey Show. Howdy. How are you? Good. How are you doing? How can we help? I'm all right. I'm starting aviation school to become a pilot.

And as you probably can assume, that comes with a hefty price tag. And I know how much Dave is against taking out any type of debt, but I was wondering if that would be something he would consider worth doing or y'all would consider worth doing. I guess just as one time. No, I'm just kidding. Only for aviation school. How cool would that be if we were like, Hunter, you are the exception, man. You did it.

We've never met a pilot who got out of school with $150,000 in student loans and there was a downturn or one of the major airlines laid a bunch of people off. I can't remember that ever happening. So yeah, you're the guy. You're the guy, man. How much is this going to cost? I haven't totaled it all up completely, but it was looking like it would be around $100,000. Okay. Over how many years? Four. So four years, $100,000. How much money do you have right now?

Right now to put towards it, I only have about $20,000. Okay. So you have $20,000. It's a good start. Do you have any now? Right now, to put towards it, I only have about 20. Okay, so you have 20k. It's a good start. Do you have any debt? No. Wonderful. And what are you doing right now? Are you working? Right now, I work part-time at the UPS warehouse in my area. Part-time, what are you making? It's 21, 21 an hour. That's amazing amazing it's about 30k a year that's incredible people are always calling in and we're like hey you can go make 20 bucks an hour at your local ups and i'm like now what and there you are just doing the dang thing okay so what what would it look like to do this at the speed of cash how quickly could you save up another 30 and get started on

that two years and then work part-time while you're in school? It'd probably take a while because now I'm living on my own paying rent and bills, so that savings is slowly depreciating. You have a roommate? I did, but he just moved out. Okay. So you're paying the full rent on your own right now? Yeah. That's a bad plan. Let's get another roommate ASAP. Yeah.

I had roommates all the way up until I was married, and it's one of the reasons I was able to have margin to get out of debt and to save up for things. So I'd highly encourage you to just keep your expenses low. You're a young dude, a hard worker. How old are you, man? 23. Yeah. It feels like the rest of your life um

the difference between being 27 and starting something in 30 and starting something when you're in your 40s is it's it's a blink of an eye but i know that when you're 23 it feels like 27 is a hundred years away so i get like i remember that dude i remember that angst like i gotta go now and the people who were in their 30s and 40s would just smile and be like you're you're good man slow down um what about uh enlisting and letting the uh air force train you i've thought about that but i don't know if i'd be able to go away for six months with my family the way they are because you have to go around i'm thinking six months's like three months for uh with your family do you have you have a child no I have uh my

grandpa he's been sick lately okay and my mom would just stress too much if I was gone all right I'm sure she would she would get used to it but well yeah and and at some point it's it's not your job to make sure your mom's okay. That's her job, to get the support and resources that she needs to be okay and to help her father. That's a lot of weight on a 23-year-old. Here's the thing. You can create a world where there's always going to be excuses,

and this is just the easiest path forward. George and I, for a living, sit with people with their face covering up their their i mean their face in their hands because they're a hundred thousand dollars in the hole they have no job prospects the thing that was just the guaranteed thing is suddenly gone um we talked to somebody the other day with 200 grand in computer science everyone Everyone said, computer science, computer science, computer science. And now if you look at some of the AI stuff, man, coding is going to be different real, real quick. All I have to say is our number one thing we're going to tell you every time, save up the money, figure this out, take a couple of years extra, go slow, work all the way. Whatever you got to do, just don't owe people money.

It just makes everything different and safe on the back end. I'd go work full time for the next year, year and a half, and then that money can be used to start this pilot journey for the next few years and cashflow the rest, working part time. That's how we would do it, man. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. My thanks to co-host Dr. John Maloney, all the folks in the booth, and you, America, will be back before you know it. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm George Campbell, Ramsey personality, joined by my good friend, Dr. John Deloney. Open phones at 888-825-5225. You call in and we will tell you the truth and we'll give you our opinion, and it's free.

So take that all with a grain of salt. Ashley kicks us off in Salt Lake City. Ashley, welcome to the show. Perfect. Thank you. I'm glad to be talking to you guys today. You as well. What's going on? So one of the reasons my ex-husband left me was because I made more money than him. He struggled with the idea of me being the main financial provider in our family. Hey, Ashley.

So, yes. Can I cut you off really quick? Absolutely. My team always gets mad when I do this, but I can't let you walk around with this thought in your head one more minute. Your husband left you because he's really struggling with some things in his own life. It has nothing to do with you. Thank you. Thank you.

Do you believe me? I do. I do. There's not a thing you could have done to stay connected to a man that has wrapped his ego um with such a with such a shallow ribbon okay cool thank you yeah all right we're done carrying that brick we're gonna set that one down all right back to back to back to the original programming go yeah fast forward um i'm actually getting married in about two weeks um my my yeah my fiance is

going to school right now he works 40 hours a week so he can be on. My fiance is going to school right now. He works 40 hours a week so he can go to school debt-free on top of his schoolwork. And so once we get married, I have the ability to help pay for most of his school. But I don't want him to feel like I don't need him or he's not a contributor in our family. So I just was wondering if you have any advice on conversations I can have with him to make sure he feels safe and secure with us paying for his school together and to help him know that he is still a contributor in our family, even though he has to go to school right now. Are you carrying this around or is he leaning the way your ex did? He's not. So he's definitely different. When I talk to him about this, his concern is more of like he feels like I'm going backwards by helping him pay for his school because I've already paid for school.

I've got out of it. I've moved forward with my life. You know, I'm at a place where I'm financially good to go. And so I think he feels like we're backtracking by me helping pay for his school. So get one of your hair ties that you wear around your wrist. Yeah. And put it between your thumb and your forefinger. And then bend a piece of paper around it.

And then I want you to pull it back and show him this. Say, look look we're going backwards and then let go and watch how far that thing flies perfect when i quit my job in higher ed and i became uh as my 13 year old so eloquently puts dad you're just a youtuber um i had to step back i had to learn a new industry. We took a pay cut. Everything changed. And now we've been launched into a whole new world that we didn't even know existed. But it took a minute. It took a minute.

And I do love the idea of you saying the words over and over, ours, we, mine. I mean, ours, not mine. This is ours where we're going. And I can't wait to pull this rubber band back with you and then we're going to be launched into the stratosphere that's awesome if the tables were turned and he was helping you pay for school would you be okay with it uh yeah and i hope to because i want to go back and get a master's after he's done and so the tables will turn oh even better

just tell him hey we're just taking turns you go. And then it's gonna be my turn, sucker. Yeah. And the beautiful thing is when you actually combine finances once you're married, it's not really like you're paying for my schooling. It's we are paying for your schooling. And it doesn't matter where the money's coming from. My wife and I, when we see money in our bank account, it's like, well, this portion was yours. So technically you should do 30. We just go, cool. What do we need to cover? Great. We'll cover it. But I will say this, George. And Ashley, like we've talked about this in our house. My wife and I used to be very similar in our incomes, right? When she was at the university and I was at the university. And now it's not because she spends most time at home and doing her side businesses.

And so she does say like, man, when it comes in, it's so cool to see it because it's ours. And she feels free to spend it. Trust me. And it's like, man, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not contributing as much as fill in the blank. And that's just simply something that she works through on a weekly, monthly basis. And one day, Ashley, you might stay home with the kids and you won't be providing that income anymore. And you might be on the other side of this thing. And so I don't like the idea of putting any stock into, well, who's contributing financially and who's not. I just love the

teamwork of we're going to build wealth together and it's going to go faster and be more than we could have ever achieved on our own. And that's something that you have to learn and practice in marriage. But I think this guy sounds like he's got a good head on his shoulders and I wish you guys the best. I'm going to give you a little gift because the wedding's coming up, John, two weeks. And we weren't invited, but we're going to give you a gift anyway. Kind of bummed out about that, but that's fine. We'll still send a gift anyway. We're going to send you guys Financial Peace University

because I think it's some of the best, whether it's premarital, during the wedding, after the wedding, it's such a great way to get common vision, goals, language around this we talk when it comes to your money goals, and I hope it alleviates some of this tension that you're walking into. And a quick note to men out there. If you're married to a great woman who also works and she makes more money than you, take your ego and wad it up and use it as two-ply and flush it and be done with

it and think the lucky heavens that y'all have a combined income that allows y'all to have some flexibility and some mobility and some margin in your lives if you can't sleep because my wife's making more money than me go talk to a counselor asap because you're going to blow up a pretty amazing situation uh both in your marriage and in your kids lives it's just what is behind john is it partially just ego issues because if you make more you feel like you have more control both in your marriage and in your kids' lives. It's just absurd. What is behind it, John? Is it partially control issues? Just ego, ego, ego, ego. Because if you make more, you feel like you have more control.

It's insecurity and ego. It's just, I mean, it just comes down to, I should be, shut up. But at some point someone told you, hey, the more you make, the more you are as a person. I think our culture has done an evil, has cast an evil spell on us that we have distilled down you know you and i've talked about this what are you worth that answer is a number in our culture and that's a credit score your bank account ridiculous what are you what are you worth i'm worth this

much that's insane it's absurd the answer to the question what are you worth is always who loves you and who do you love period not how much money you make right and but that's what we've done and especially to a generation of young men that we've taken away every single thing that made them who they were and said you're bad and you're wrong now all they have is why make this much money and that's a very hollow, shallow metric. And so instead of being really excited that you married to a partner who's doing really well and y'all together are able to do some cool things, it becomes competitive, and it becomes a, well, I should be, and I'm the. Shut up. Shut up.

Be really eternally grateful for this situation. A, it might change over time. It might not. And B, my God, it might change over time. It might not. And B, my God, get rid of your ego. And if you are dating that person, this should be a giant red flag. If they talk that way or think that way, I'd have some heavy pause before taking another step in that relationship. Absolutely. A hundred percent. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell joined by Dr. John Deloney.

Open phones at 888-825-5225. It's time for our question of the day brought to you by Neighborly, your hub for home services. You can trust Neighborly's local service providers to repair, maintain, and improve your home. Just go to Neighborly.com slash Ramsey to find experts in your area and to schedule services today. What do we got today, John? All right. Today's question comes from Olivia, not Newton John, in the Ramsey Baby Steps community on Facebook. Olivia writes, at a recent visit to my bank, I mentioned that my employer pays my mileage. She said, I hope you're putting that on a credit card and getting cash back. I replied, I'm doing Dave Ramsey's plan and don't use credit. She was aghast and told me how

hard it was to rent an apartment, get a car, or buy a house. And I just heard George's voice in the back of my head with this new book. That's a scary voice to be in the back of your head, Olivia. She then told me how dangerous it is to use my debit card because fraud is so prevalent. This is the one that worries me. I work in some rough areas

where cards get skimmed often. What are some ways to protect myself using a debit card so I don't need the fancy credit card protection? Good times. This is my Super Bowl, John.

First of all, I'm sorry that you have to deal with bankers spewing mythology and telling you how hard life is without our debt products i know my my mom is a mythology professor and i think she communicates less mythology than this person did this banking transaction yes and i do debunk a lot of this in in my book i have a whole chapter on credit scores debunking why they're a scam and how to live without one. And I've got a whole chapter on credit cards and why debit cards are just as safe. And here's a few things to look into. One is the Electronic Fund Transfer Act, which protects your debit card against fraud.

The other is Visa and MasterCard. If you have that logo on your debit card, you are covered by their zero liability policy. So there's two things right there. Now, cards get skimmed all the time, whether it's credit or debit. No one knows when they're skimming a card. They're just finding card numbers, skimming them. So a few things you can do. Number one, when you use Apple Pay, it actually changes your card number to protect it. So that's one way to do it. You know, when you double tap on your phone, you can pay that way. Sometimes at the gas pump, you can do this. I've never done that, but I trust that you do that. John trusts that I do it. So you can have your card loaded up on Apple Pay and your number's

protected. And you can pay that way at the gas pump, at the grocery store. I do this all the time if they have the tap to pay option. The other thing you can do for online purchases that I love is use a service called privacy.com. They're not an advertiser, but it's a really cool tool where you can create virtual debit cards with spending limits, time limits, all kinds of things. And so that's what I do when I'm on a site. I just pop in a virtual debit card number tied to mine that's a completely different number. So if it gets skimmed, it's no skin off my back. It's going to sound like a privacy.com commercial, but I use the same thing. Here's what it does. You put your debit card in and let's say you're going to make an Amazon purchase. You type it in and you hit create and it creates an Amazon card and gives you a number and an expiration date and that three digit code on the back.

And you put that in the Amazon account. That way, Amazon never has your actual debit card, and you can limit the amount of money spent on it, and then you go to the next one, and if you want to buy some shoes from Nike.com, you create a Nike card. And you can even do a one-time use for some of these if you're just going to make one purchase. I think I've got 60 or 70 different cards open

for various purchases over the last four or five years, but it's really remarkable. And that way, nobody has your actual debit card and i'll tell you something else i did i did this when i traveled overseas um i actually went to my local bank and opened a second account underneath my current account and got a new debit card and in that debit card i had i put just x amount of dollars so that if somebody took it and skimmed the whole thing, it didn't wipe me out. And so I actually carry two debit cards from the same checking account in my wallet,

and when I'm in places where I feel like, I pull out the other one because it's only got a little bit of money in that account, and that way, it just lowers my risk. That's smart. And for international travel, another one we get, John, as well, the credit card, I can avoid these transaction fees when I'm traveling internationally.

Well, Charles Schwab actually makes a debit card tied to their investor checking account. It's completely free, and it has no fees. So no transaction fees, no foreign transaction fees. And so there's really just, I'm running into the, I'm at the point where there's less and less reasons to ever use a credit card because of how many new tools are out there. New technologies are out there and debit cards are now just as safe as your credit card, except the only thing I can't do is go into debt, which is something that you do to yourself when you're putting yourself in credit card debt. And so there's also another thing you can do, which is get ID theft protection. Our friends at Zander

provide that. It's like, you know, six bucks a month, 12 bucks a month to cover your whole family. And that will help cover you in case of fraud. They'll do all the restorative services to get you back and whole. So a lot of things you can do out there. And the only thing I wouldn't do is keep your credit card around and listen to what that banker has to say. By the way, that banker sells debit cards. So I don't know. It's like going to Burger King and having them be like, you can't eat food here. That's what this banker did. It's so strange. What a weird.

What a time to be alive. Thanks for the question, Olivia. Melanie is in Canada. Melanie, what's going on over there? Hey, thanks so much for taking my call we're worried about you guys right yeah that's exactly why uh i'm calling actually so i'm pretty new well me and my husband are pretty new to the ramsey baby step method so i wish i knew about this much sooner but here we are how old are you not sure if you're i am 41 okay My husband is 44. Yeah. We have five children. Not sure if you're familiar with what's going on in Canadian housing market right now. I know it's all astronomical and impossible. Yeah, as the great Gwen Stefani once said, it's B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

That's exactly it. So my husband and I, we built a house in 2021 in Alberta. And our plan was to pay for it in cash. We made some prior mistakes in the market. And the stock market didn't happen that way. So now we have a mortgage on our home, which we don't like at all. But here's the question. He wants to sell and just save our money,

save our money, save our money, and then just pay cash for a house when we're ready. I think that's a mistake right now, being in the housing market the way it is in Canada right now. I think we should just keep chugging along, and if we're on the same page as we are, we should have this done in about 10 years' time. And I've already spoken to the builder that

built our house. Our house is already worth $400,000 more now than it was in 2021. Wow. What's it worth now? Just over a million dollars. And what do you owe? Well, because the mortgage rates are quite high in Canada right now, we're paying about $30,000 a year just in mortgage rates, which is not even going towards the principal. So we probably own just around $550,000, I would say. Okay. And is this payment unmanageable as far as your take-home pay goes? Like what percentage of your after-tax income is getting eaten up by this?

Oh, no, we're fine with that. So my husband, he works in the oil industry, and he brings home just roughly, with overtime and everything, like before taxes, about $200,000. Okay. I bring home about $35,000 before taxes. Other than the house, that is pretty much our only debt. We do

have a car payment, 0% interest with $18,000 left on it. And in our savings, we have about $150,000. Whoa, that's a lot of savings. Why not pay off the car today? I brought that up with him when I started listening to you guys. And he said it's 0%. Hold on, but he doesn't get to be stressed about a mortgage debt, but not about a car debt. I like it. It makes me feel comfortable. It's because of the interest. He loves math. Yeah, he does. Actually, he's very good at math.

I bet. I bet. Well, I'm with you. This is not a fire situation where you need to sell the house because the payment isn't what's killing you guys. And so if you said, hey, the payment is 50% of our take-home pay, I would say, yeah, you probably want to sell. But I'm in your boat. If you go sell, you're going to have to go buy a place that's $1.5 million three years from now.

Exactly. And then get a mortgage again or just wait 10 years to save up and pay cash for it. So I think just stay the road you're on and attack that mortgage with a vengeance once the car is paid off. I'd put $100,000 of that $150,000 on your mortgage and knock it down to $450,000 by the end of this weekend and have a paid off car. And you still have that emergency fund there. That's right.

With that $50,000. So that's what I would do, Melanie. I don't know that you can talk him into it. He can listen back to this call, but we're just a bunch of American chuckleheads over here. So best wishes to all of you in Canada. Goodness gracious. It sounds crazy over there, John. This is The Ramsey Show.

Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined joined by dr john deloney open phones at 888-825-5225 hey george yesterday uh we were you and i were cutting something for uh social um social team comes to us with these ideas for things and they're like hey we need y'all to do this and sometimes it's like that's great sometimes we're like oh geez but i don't know what's like cool and trending on tiktok they keep up yeah so that you don't have to exactly but uh they had us face each other across the table and do a dad joke competition that was some of the most fun you can have at work bro you did a joke and i don't know why it hit me so funny but but I laughed all day. I clearly broke at the table, but I laughed. You broke about every three jokes.

I know. I stayed strong. I like good jokes. You just stay strong. I don't think you have a soul. Well, for you, it was the direct eye contact that I made the whole time. I think that's what broke you.

But I need you to tell America the joke that got me the worst. The sponge joke? Yeah, it was a great joke, man. Okay, this one took you, it took some people a few seconds. So really think about it. I was washing the car with my son this weekend

and he said, Dad, can't you just use a sponge? I think that's such a great joke. The audience in the lobby, they're still ruminating on it. They got nothing. They don't think it's funny at all. It's great. That's why it's funny at all. It's great.

That's why it's a dad joke. It's meant for dads. That guy that looks like you got cloned out there just thumbs down to you. Your alt version of yourself, George, doesn't even like it. I didn't come up with this. They found it on the internet. It comes from the dad joke repository. I think it's a great joke.

I feel like there's a Where's Waldo, but it's a Where's George Campbell, and you're right next to me and I'm in the lobby. It's so strange. To be fair, I look like a few more of every guy that's ever worked at an Apple store and put them into one body. So, you know, familiar face. That is very true. Very helpful. Very excited to tell you about the latest iPhone 15 Pro.

And it does look like you shave with an electric razor with your eyes closed. All right, let's go to... There we are. Mike is in Richmond, Virginia. Mike, save us from ourselves. How can we help you? Hi, guys. Thanks for save us from ourselves. How can we help you? Hi, guys. Thanks for having me on.

Sure. I'm a pretty new listener to the Ramsey program. I'm really enjoying it so far. Welcome to our cult, Mike. At a moment about four or five months ago, about my finances, and something just hit me, and I just want to finances and just something just hit me and I I just want to change kind of how things are going um you know that I've been listening to about a month and I don't think I've heard anybody say they've had higher debt than I do so it's kind of embarrassing you might win the competition in the worst way bring it what is it

exactly but I'm in four460,000 of debt. Oh, that's not even close. Child's play. That is a lot of debt. That's an insane amount of debt, Mike. Let's be very clear. What kind of debt is this? But it's all student loans.

Every penny? And I was listening to, yeah. Are you a physician? What's that? What do you do for a living? Are you a physician? I'm a dentist, yeah. There you go.

Okay. So, yeah, I was listening to your book, Breaking Free from Broke, yesterday. And I was like the chapter on student loans. And I was like, yeah, this is like written about me. And, you know, when I was in high school, getting ready to go to college, my family didn't have a ton of money. So I was pretty much responsible for paying my own way. But I was 18.

I didn't really know what I was doing. I went to the bank, signed all these papers, and the next thing you know, go through undergrad, go through dental school, and hit with this huge tab. I did have a car note, but over the past month, I was just like, I got really aggressive with it. I paid 20K of that off in about a month.

So I guess my question is like, how do I, and I think I may know the answer, but how do I grasp this number? It's just so daunting. What do you take home every year, man? Last year, I made $275,000. Do you have your own practice, or are you a part of a group?

I'm an associate. My brother actually owns the practice. And I guess long-term, I would like to become a partner. Do you have to buy in for that, or is that going to be just a draw rate? Okay. Yeah, I do have to buy in for that or is that going to be just a draw rate? I do. Yeah, I do have to buy in. That's down the road. I like to clean this mess up first.

So if you got really aggressive, how much can you throw at this debt every year? So I'm planning. I mapped everything out. I'm planning about $10K a month. That's not enough. You can do more. Are you married? Do you have kids? I'm engaged. My fiance is also a physician, but she's in a residency program,

so she's only taken in about, I don't know, 50 to 60K. So that will change in a couple of years, but we don't share any finances yet. We, we will, but if you make in two 75, I would love you to figure out a way to live, um, in a one bedroom apartment and, and, um, on about, uh, $50,000 a year, $40,000 a year and get so insanely aggressive that people around you think you're bananas and ask your brother if you can come in on Sundays and do a Sunday practice for guys like me, who's on the road a lot. And it's hard for me to get into the dentist. Like just get out of your mind aggressive and tell your wife that, or your future wife, I want you to come into this

marriage without almost half a million dollars saddled around our brand new love and we haven't seen anybody um be successful without just getting radical about it and i did it too i didn't have this many my i only had i had six figures but i didn't have 460 but it was something about just burning all the ships and just being like dude we are scorched earth and coming up for air 18 months later and our whole life was different. But we sold our house. We sold everything, man.

Based on your lifestyle, nobody should know that you're a dentist that makes $275,000. Yeah. You should look like a broke guy who's an undergrad just trying to make it for the next three years.

If you do that, you're going to be so wealthy for the next 30 after that. Yeah, I do live in one bedroom apartment already, and I refuse to buy a house right now. Good, man. When are you getting married? I think I just need to, in April of 2025. So about a year from now.

About a year. Is she working? Yeah, she's in a residency program. Okay. So your income will drastically increase a year from now, not just your own, she's in a residency program. Okay. So your income will drastically increase a year from now, not just your own, but also with the dual income. All right. So that's going to speed this up.

What's her debt load going to be? Her debt load is a lot less than mine. I think it's about $200K of medical school. But she will make projected about $300,000 a year. And my income hopefully will continue to go up. It's gone up every year. So if you guys are making 600 grand and you've knocked yours down by 120 K a year from now, even a little more by the time the wedding happens, then you're looking at what, 340 and she's got 200. So you, you know, you'll have a huge chunk of debt, but you'll also have

an amazing income that you'll, you'll be, be both of you will be debt free two years into your marriage if you do this the right way yeah and so this is not a life sentence i feel like right now you're just looking at the mountain going oh my gosh this is 10 years of my life and we're saying dude this is two or three if you do it our way yeah are these broken out into a bunch of little loans? I have a private loan that's just one big sum and then my federal loans, yeah, they have like little

subcategories. Good. Some are 30K, 40K, and others are like 3K, 4K. The debt snowball is your best friend.

I want you to list them each out in an every dollar budget. I'm going to gift you every dollar premium so that this makes it even easier. It'll connect to your bank account, all that good stuff, and it'll create the debt snowball for you. You already bought it? That's awesome. We'll give you an extra one so that when it renews, you'll have a year to go.

Because this is a journey, man. Yeah. Is your take-home check about 17 a month yeah it's it's a bi-weekly okay um and it's about it ranges anywhere from seven to eight to nine it just depends on how big they am and kind of what i'm doing and so if you if you don't have a car payment and you live in a one-bedroom apartment, what are you spending $7,000 a month on? Well, that was kind of one I paid off my car, like, again, 20-something K in a couple months. But I just haven't been smart with my money because I didn't have this mindset.

I don't lie or BS it. Oh, you're like me, dude. Like, we're the same team, same team. I was just kind of me, dude. Same team, same team. I was just kind of free flow and I bought an engagement ring. We went to Cabo for a wedding. We stayed for a week. It's just kind of a dumb mess.

It was, and now it's all going to be different now. And in 24 months, 36 months, you're going to look up and you're going to be a free man with a household income of $600,000. Y'all are going to be so wealthy. And your brother's going to say, all right, it's time to sell the practice, buy the practice. And you're going to say, well, I'm going to need four more years because I'm paying cash for this thing.

I'm not going to take a huge loan out for it. That's amazing, man. You're on your way. You're on your way. Hang on the line. We're going to get you another year of every dollar premium on us, Mike. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Camel,

joined by Dr. John Deloney. The phone number is 888-825-5225. You call in, we'll talk about your life and your money. Lindsay is up next in Phoenix. Lindsay, welcome to the show. Thank you for taking my call. Absolutely. How can we help today? So I actually just have a question about my 18-year-old son who is currently a senior in high school and will be graduating in May. Fun. So he is working part-time at Target. He makes about $1,000 to $1,500 a month right now. He has $6,500 saved. He's wanting to buy a car. And so we're just trying to kind of help guide him. He's not wanting to go to college. He's looking at possibly doing an apprenticeship to be a heavy equipment operator is what he's interested in. So we're just kind of trying to guide him in like what he should do, how much

money he should be saving for his emergency how much money he should be saving for his emergency fund, what he should be saving for next. Just anyway, any advice on how to guide him as he moves forward? Yeah, I think all this starts with you and your husband and y'all coming up with some boundaries or some terms as to how much you'll support them with. Like in my house, I've told my son, I'll pay half, you pay half. And that could be a guitar, that could be a car, right? But not every family's in that situation, and that's great. I think it's y'all deciding, hey, we can put, I remember my dad told me he could put X number

hundreds of dollars. I knew that really was painful for him, but he was always stretching for me. So I think every family's different, but y'all sit down and say, okay, here's what we can help you with um okay i am all for if um a kid comes to mom and dad and says hey i know y'all had dreams of me going to college um i want to try something else and not go to college i i support that if my son came to me both me and my wife are college nerds

and we've been saving for college talking about college with their kids and if my son came to me, both me and my wife are college nerds, and we've been saving for college, talking about college with our kids. And if my son came to me and said, or my daughter came and said, hey, I don't want to do that. I actually want to go be a plumber. I actually want to go learn how to, I'm going to go be a lineman. I'd fully support that, but here's the condition. Okay. Where I've seen families get hung up is your son says, I'm not going to college.

I want to do an apprenticeship. And everyone kind of goes, okay. And mom and dad, and I don't mean this in a bad way. Mom and dad, go grieve that picture. Because everyone, like there's this picture of we're going to drop little Johnny off at college and it's going to be a thing. And he's not going to do that. And y'all are going to have to tell your friends. And I would say he's gotten that a little bit from other friends and family okay my

husband and I are super supportive of him doing a trade and we we have said 100 this is for him for his personality this is a great move love I want I want an ironclad plan leaving school leaving high school who are you going to apprentice with? With what? Where? When do you start? And what's the length of this apprenticeship in this program? And that way, everybody's on the same page, and it doesn't turn into August, and y'all are like, what are you doing? He's like, well, you know, and then all of a sudden, I want it mapped out before school is out this spring. And so, so far we've found out that it's like he has to have his diploma to apply. So he can't even apply until May. It's a three-year apprenticeship. It is paid, like, so he doesn't have to have a job.

He just has to have transportation. And he has a car that we currently own right now that he's driving that we have offered, like, once we sell it, we said that we'd give him half of that money that we can get for our car to go towards him buying his own car. That's excellent. And y'all may decide. We're going to try for six months. What was that? You and your husband may decide, hey, we've talked, son, and we're going to start off.

We're going to give you six months. You can stay at home. And then in month four on this date, we're going to have a lunch meeting and we're going to reevaluate how things are going. Okay. And you're going to pay us a way below market rate, but you got to pay something.

You got to have some skin in the game. And I want you to hear the two things I want you to hear me repeat over and over again is put everything on paper in writing. He's an adult. And I have no problem with kids, with mom and dad letting kids stay at home. Where I have a problem is they're not clear on when you're leaving, what it's going to cost, and then over time resentment builds. And it's not fair to any of y'all.

Okay. And maybe after six months. Moving forward as far as how much he should be saving for an emergency fund, like right now he doesn't have any bills. Yeah. So right now I would put $1,000. Right now the most important thing is he gets through school debt-free. He gets through this apprenticeship without owing anybody any money.

And you all have a bunch of balls up in the air, which is where is he going to live? Is he going to be able to do this locally? Is he going to have to leave town? Is he going to have to do something? It is local. Okay. It's about a half the air, which is where's he going to live? Is he going to be able to do this locally? Is he going to have to leave town? Is he going to have to do something? It is local. Okay. It's about a half hour away, which is great. So it is local.

He can stay here while he's doing it. Okay. But I think for him, for his transition to adulthood and for you and your husband's sanity, I think giving him a housing contract, kind of like you would get in an apartment complex. Here's what your lease looks like. Um, you can't be rolling here at three 30 in the morning with your apprentice buddies.

If you're going to live here, here's what this looks like. And it's free. And I also think it's good to put, here's how much money you're going to save over the longterm. We're going to reevaluate this lease in month four. And we may all decide, um,

at month six, it's going to be time for you to go and me and your mom get to do that and by the way you need to do that or at month six we're going to renew it but i like starting to transition that out and it just keeps everybody safe because your husband's going to be wondering when is this freaking 18 year old going to get out of my house but i don't want my wife to get mad and then then you're going to be saying, God, he, that guy's just coddling him. It's all on paper. Everybody's on the same page. Okay. The other thing you can do, Lindsay, is have him make a mock budget in every dollar and have him actually lay out, Hey, here's what car insurance is going to cost on this thing.

Here's what gas is going to cost. Here's what the utility bills will cost and have them put some skin in the game. Maybe that's, maybe that's money. And you say, Hey, we're going to take this money and put it away and you get it back when you leave the house as our gift to you. But we want to teach you how to have this give, save, spend mentality. I'm going to give a little, I'm going to spend a little, let him enjoy life. He's 18. We don't need to like force him into this version of adulthood, but I think it's great to start going, okay, make 1500. How do I budget this wisely while I make it? And what does his apprenticeship pay? Do you know?

They said that it starts at $24.47 an hour, and every six months he's eligible for advancement based on kind of like where he's at, what he's doing. That's just the basics of what I know right now. That is amazing. Well, you're doing a great job as a parent. And like John said, there's no right or wrong way. The key is to communicate that upfront. Clarity, clarity, clarity. That's important. And so what John's talking about is the 401 Dave plan, as he coined it, where he said, hey, we're going to save up half and whatever

you save, we're going to match. And so that's what they ended up doing. So if he saves five grand for a car, you guys can put in the other five, or like you said, we're going to sell the car and he gets half and that becomes his car budget. And if that means $8,000, we got to go find an $8,000 car. And guess what? He's going to be looking at some nicer cars than that going, man, I'm making some good money now, mom. I want to get a nicer car. And you go, not if you don't have the cash for it. And his buddies who are going to be in the apprentice program with him making 24 bucks an hour are all going to go out and get nice trucks. They're making like $50,000 at that point.

They're going to be like, bro, what are you doing? You're 18. You're making this kind of money. And he's just going to have to keep walking it. Again, and here's an important thing. He can move out. And he can go get his own place and do his own thing. And you're going to transition over the next six months from mom and dad, we tell you what to do,

to mom and dad, the adults who are going to influence you relationally. That's why I love sitting down and having these conversations. George, that's some great wisdom to say, okay, here's how much life costs. Here's insurance, cell phone. So right out the gate, it costs $450 just to exist. Then you put food, and then you put this, and you put this, and his eyes are going to come out of his head. It's like, man, I got $50,000?

He's like, not really. If he made a mock budget, what it really costs to go live on his own today, he's going to go, mom, thank you so much for letting me live here. Right. And then you're going to say, cool, here's the lease. You're going to be home by 1 a.m. And you can't have your cherry vape in the house anymore.

Whatever's going on there, right? I love it. Oh, that's fun. Lindsey, hang on the line. We're going to send you a copy of my book, Breaking Free from Broke. I think it's a great book for him to read. He can listen to the audio book as well. We'll send you that.

And that's going to be a great way to help him avoid some of the traps out there because the toxic money system comes at 18 year olds so hard. And it starts with the guy on the college campus who's trying to get you to sign up for the credit card with the pizza and the free t-shirt. And then you got to get your credit score up, man. So go get some debt. This is going to help them avoid debt. You guys have done a great job already. And I'm proud of you as parents. You guys are a great picture of what it looks like to have raised healthy kids into healthy adults. So thank you for that. That puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the books. Thank you to Dr. John Maloney, my co-host, all the folks in the booth. We got Eboo, we got Ben, James, Andrew, the whole gang's in there. And Judas is back there too. That's right. Everyone and their mom is in there running the show. That's how many people it takes.

Takes a village, y'all. We'll be back before you know it. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create amazing relationships. I'm Ramsey personality, George Campbell, joined by my colleague, Dr. John Deloney. The phone number to call is 888-825-5225. You call up, we'll talk about your life and your money. Angie kicks us off in Salt Lake City. Angie, what's going on? Hey, guys.

Thank you for having me on the show. I really am just in a place where I just really don't know what to do. Just a little bit of back history. My deadbeat ex spent more than a decade psychologically abusing my kids and I to the point that he alienated two of my children from me. Additionally, he refused to pay child support and his portion of children's medical expenses for that 10-plus years. Yet he's building himself a 4,000 square foot home.

He travels to other states to game with other gamers and he pays the best attorney in the state to repeatedly file unprovoked lawsuits against me. Yeah, it feels, it feels gross to say it all out loud, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's heavy. I'm so sorry. Yeah, he intentionally keeps assets out of his name so I have no way to collect. His parents have enabled him by paying for everything.

I've already spent large sums of money in the court system trying to get justice and many failures happened. I'm at a point now when my judgments need to be renewed and I need to go to trial to get additional judgments against him for more children's medical expenses and unpaid child support. I have already spent significant money in court costs and have suffered significant emotional damage from the loss of my relationships with the two children. So the last thing I want to do is spend more money on this problem. And I have trauma that prevents me from wanting to go back to court

to get the judgment. So making decisions has been really difficult when there's no good answers. So I have two questions. My question is twofold. How do I heal from the loss of a child that feels like a death, but they're still alive? And should I spend more money on this problem by hiring an attorney to go get the new judgment and renew the previous judgment?

Or should I try to represent myself to save the money? Or should I just walk away? Let's do the money part first, and then we'll talk about your kids at the end. How old are your kids now? One is 18, the other is 17, and the other is 16. Okay. And the reason I ask is if you're coming and you've got an 18-year-old, a 17-year-old,

and you're looking for back unpaid child support back when they were 10, 11, 12, that's going to be a long haul, right? That's going to be forensic accounting. That's going to be going through. It's just going to be a long, expensive process. Do I hate that for you? Yes. Go ahead.

So they are already certified to go to trial. I'm at the point where they have been certified, and I just have to make the decision to spend the north of $10,000 to go to trial to get them, you know, judgment. Where are you at financially right now? Yeah, do you have $10,000 to go to trial to get him, you know, judgment. Where are you at financially right now? Yeah, do you have $10,000? I do. Okay, what's $10,000 going to get you?

Spending the money on that. What's it going to get you? It's going to get me the knowledge that I didn't, like, you know, enable him to just get out of it that's not worth $10,000 to me like he gets it's like he gets away with it he's gotten away with it

that $10,000 isn't worth it to me if you're going to get $10,000 so that you can recover $50,000 in medical expenses that he didn't pay I'm all in I'm all in but what you're looking for, you're going to spend $10,000 on this elusive thing called justice. And for you, justice means

he pays what he should have paid. And it also means that you feel a certain way. I remember testifying in a court trial where somebody went to jail for a long time. And it was the scariest thing I've ever done in my life. Just getting sworn in. And when the person went to jail, I remember having a sick feeling in my stomach, even though it was right. I remember calling a friend of mine and she's a forensic psychologist, what she does. And I said, why do I feel so just bad? And she said, because even when somebody wins in something like this, nobody wins. These kids still lost their mom.

They still lost their dad. Their dad's still a scumbag. It's still been 10 years of kids being used as weapons for a man's image. You see what I'm saying? Like nobody's going to win. And so I know it's like I'm going to clench my fist. I'm going to get this thing called justice. And dude, I'm all about justice. To the end of time, I'm about it,

but if you end up doing $10,000 just so he didn't quote-unquote get away with it, I'm telling you there's going to be a hollow victory on the other side of that. If you got $10,000 and that was an investment in getting the money that you needed to pay your bills because this man owes you that money, the court said he owed you that money then honey i'll be with you all the way yeah i think the difficulty too is knowing like collection i haven't collected

on the past ones so it just it feels like uh like a meaningless effort well if if you can walk into court and say hey uh there was a judgment against him and for the last 12 years he hasn't paid a penny then heck yeah go get your money don't let that scumbag skate on what his responsibilities were but if it's just i want to spend ten thousand dollars so he gets what's coming to him the as you've said and i'm just going off $10,000 so he gets what's coming to him, as you've said, and I'm just going off your words, the chances of him getting what's coming, because of the way he spends money and the way he hires attorneys,

that chance is very small. Yeah. And the worst part is that still won't undo the fact that he's destroyed the relationship that you had with these two kids. Yeah, tell me about that. Well, yeah, so he, you know, it started off right after the divorce that he would, you know, say things like, oh, you know, the reason we're not together as a family is because mommy won't forgive daddy. Well, what he forgot to tell them is that daddy abused me and the kids physically and

psychologically yeah so it wasn't about you know that but did those kids talk to you anymore um i recently the court finally um gave me the ability to communicate with them and they felt forced to communicate with me so i get like so here's what I want you to do. I want you to, you're, you're putting an investment in a 20 year game. You, you want to be close and have a deep relationship with them when they're 35 and they've been poisoned during some really formative years. So what are you going to do? I want you to write them a letter every week for the next 10 years so that they have a shoebox full of proof that mom never gave up on us. And one day they're going to sit down and say, what happened? And then you can not bad mouth, that man sucked. It's the truth. That man hurt me bad. Right? That's a

totally different story. I want you to sit down with your attorney that you have right now. And I want you to lay this out and say, I need you to help me best spend my money. What's the right thing to do? And if you don't have an attorney, I want you to reach out to a local law school and ask one of their clinics if they'll take your case for a reduced or free rate. Law school clinics are amazing places to start. This is The Ramsey Show. If you're enjoying it, please share it. That's the one thing we ask of you. The show is free and sharing it is free. Hitting the like button, also free. And, you know, leave a review. Hit the

follow button. All of that helps us and helps us reach more people, helps the algorithm love us. And that's the key. We just want to spread this message to more people and give them hope in a world that is chaotic and noisy. Appreciate you guys doing that. We've got a fun event coming up May 10th and 11th with the entire gang, all the Ramsey personalities, including John and I and Dave, Rachel, Ken, Jade. We're going to be speaking at our Total Money Makeover weekend. It's a brand new event, May 10th and 11th, right here in Nashville, up the hill from the Ramsey Solutions headquarters at our new event center. And in just one weekend, you're going to get the crash course on everything we teach about

money with brand new content. Of course, we're going to be talking about budgeting and beating debt, investing, but we're going to go even deeper than we have before. There's going to be live Q&A throughout the weekend, so bring your questions and this event's going to be fun. We've got some fun things planned, some fun surprises, and early bird tickets start at just $99 for a limited time. So if you want to join us, get your tickets now. The event center seats about 2,400, so this thing will sell out. Get your tickets now, ramsaysolutions.com slash events. All right, let's go to the phones.

Paul joins us in Phoenix up next. Paul, what's going on? Hey, how you doing? Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Okay, my father got COVID about two and a half years ago. Went in the hospital, came out of the hospital about 98 pounds. Came home, and I had nurses here, and finally figured out that it was hospice, and they told me they were palliative care.

So I told them to get out of my house. Wait, why? palliative care. So I told him to get out of my house. And my father's up for more. Well, because the bus stopped by one day and asked me if I was junior. And I said, yes. And they handed me a bottle of liquid morphine and liquid lorazepam. And I read on this inslip of the morphine, it says, hey, do not give this with any benzodiazepines. It may cause death or shallow breathing. So I took that advice and told them to get out of my house. And my father, he's up to 150 now. He walks.

He goes to the bathroom by himself. And I still got my dad. So, and it's, you know, the doses that they wanted me to give him were phenomenal. I mean, it was unbelievable how much they wanted me to give him of this stuff. I did all the research, and it said, you know, this is to make him comfortable for death. And I wasn't going to let him kill my dad. So it's a great turn. You don't really hear success stories from these deals from COVID. And I totally believe that it was that.

I'm glad he's doing okay. How can we help, man? Yeah, he's doing great. It's kind of hard to follow that call that you had right before because, wow, I'm praying for her. Anyways, my problem is, okay, so he's got a couple of, I had to give up pretty much everything uh and um to take care of him um so i'm this full-time uh well i'm this full-time everything actually um are you working right now

no i can't there's no way i could it's's, it's escaping me off top of my mind and I, I hate that it is. Um, but there's a program where the government will pay, will pay you to take care of a family member. Are you a part of that? Yeah, no, I went, well, I, I, yeah, I checked it out, did the research on it. Um, basically, um, what it would do. Um, and I and i just did this you know not a week ago i didn't hear i didn't know about it but um they would pay you um for four days or three or four days a week um for i think it's 12 to 13 that's 13 to 14 hour or um dollars an hour um and it's just seemed like they were because it's not what are you making now

you're making zero right and that's correct i just did this so i still have a um i can um go ahead and do it um it just felt like it was so much money that they were the government was taking because it's it's not them that does it, it's these third-party companies. Okay. So basically, it's like a... So get to your question, man. How can we help you, brother? Question is, okay,

he's got a couple of bank accounts, and I don't... I'm trying to figure out some way I can add to it, not just watch it kind of dissipate. How much is in there? There's one that's got about $250. There's one that's got about $150. Yeah.

I mean, the only way to get money, dude, is to go get a job. Is your dad at a place now where he's out of the woods? You said he's doing great and he's gained weight and he can get around on his own to where you can start going to get a job? No, no, no, no, no. I mean, correct. He walks with a stroller or a walker. I'm sorry. He walks with a walker.

He still has his TLPD and some after effects of the COVID. So, no, he can't, I mean, what I say is getting around, you just, he can get around, but not, I mean, get around to like take his dog to the backyard. Um, but is the plan to just drain this 400 grand to sustain both of your lives? No, that's, that's, that's, that's my, that's why I'm calling you guys because no, that's not what I want to do. I recently bought a house in a suburb of where we were.

And now I just... Can you afford the house that you bought? Yes. Well, this is how I did it. I did it and then I paid it. I did it, and then I paid cash, and the money that I get from the old house will replenish the money that we paid for this, and maybe $10,000 or $20,000 on top of that. That will be profit. So you're living in the new house now with him? Yes, yes, sir. And you still have the old house? Yes, and three other rentals.

Okay. Are these cash flowing? Who's managing these? I am. I have been for the last five or six years. Okay. Is your name on the deeds of these? No, I'm the beneficiary. the, he's got a living will. Okay. Is it to the point where you need a durable power of attorney for him to take care of his financial matters? Well, I already do take care of everything. But if your name is not on these accounts.

Do you legally do that? That's right. Your name's got to be on the accounts. Have you all gone down to the bank together and put your name on the checking accounts and put your name on the retirement accounts, put your name on the house deeds? Yeah, everything's on. My name is on all the house deeds. I have the same name as him. So sometimes the checks that I have to send out, I can just send out and there's no problem. All right. Well, the solution to your problem, unfortunately, is a mess

that millions of people find themselves in, which is I need to be a caretaker, but I've also got to get income. And so I don't see a path out of just taking that $400,000 and dwindling it down to zero over time without you finding a way

to bring more money in. And that could be figuring out a work from home situation. That could be you being a part of that government program that you clearly don't want to be a part of a government program. Dude, I'm with you. I totally get it. Yeah. Okay.

And as a taxpayer who wants a smaller government, I don't mind part of my tax dollars going to people who are taking care of their family members with special needs one of my best friends on planet earth has a very similar situation and he is incapacitated and thank god his family can take care of him so i'm all for that um but you can't just sit at home he was do what that's where that's where he was he was think that you know incap incapacitated when I got him home from the hospital. Sure, but here's the thing. At the end of the day, there's not a magic wand over this. You're going to have to figure out a way to go earn some money.

And there's just not another path. And so you have to be able to say, okay, I've believed that this can't happen, and this can't happen, and this can't happen. I want you to revisit all of those cannot happens. Could he stay by himself for six hours a day? Could he stay by himself for three hours a day? Like what? Be very specific.

And then bro, you got to go to work and you've been going to work for the last few years taking care of him. That's noble and that's good. You got to get some jobs. You got to go figure that part out. Otherwise, the money's going to be gone. It's just going to be gone. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm George Campbell, joined by Dr. John Deloney.

Open phones at 888-825-5225. Tony's up next in Tucson, Arizona. Tony, what's going on? Hi, how are you? Thank you for taking my call. Absolutely. Oh, here with a bit of a dilemma on what should I do? I've been listening for a while and haven't really heard a similar situation, or45,000 in an equity loan. And I have two mort.5 in 401k and about 45 to 50 in bonds. And so my dilemma is that over the last year or so, I've been trying to hit it as hard as I can and as fast as I can to pay some of the debt. But I've only done about 25, so I'm remaining about $90,000. So I've done around $25,000, $30,000 already that I've been able to pay. How long did that take?

It took me about a year and a half. What's your income? Between my wife and I, we're about $140,000. Okay. Why did it take a year and a half to pay down $25,000 if you're making $140,000? Probably just not paying it as aggressively as I should, I'm assuming. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have enough money in retirement, and you could pay off this debt today. But my bigger worry is that you don't change your behavior and your lifestyle,

and so you might be back in the situation, and you're not spending less than you make. Well, that's hopefully what I'm pushing for because I'm hoping that once I see that there's no debt there, being very aggressive and not creating any more of that debt. Well, you don't have to hope if you just decide, hey, we're done with debt. We've played with debt our whole adult life. It's led us here. We could have had $5 million. Instead, we got $1.5 million, and we still have debt laying around.

And if you get serious now, you're going to be debt-free and keep on stacking that money for the next few years as you continue working. Do you guys plan on continuing to work up until your mid-60s? That's the plan, yes. Yes. Okay. So what's left on the primary mortgage? The left on the primary is $125,000

and about $80,000 on the rental. Oh, so that's all. You said there was $45,000 in an equity loan? You said there was $90,000 left of consumer debt? Well, $90,000 includes $45,000 of the equity loan and then the rest credit card and then the two mortgages. Goodness gracious. So part of my dilemma was reaching the 59 and a half and saying, okay, now I think I can take money out because of the tax implications out of 401k before

and paying all penalties and all that. But now I'm kind of over that one. And that's been my dilemma. Do I just keep pushing hard to pay down and push harder? Well, let's play this out. Let's say you dipped into your one and a half million and your bonds and you paid off all debt, the equity loan, the credit cards, the primary mortgage, the rental, that would cost you about 300 grand out of 1.5, correct? Correct. So you're down to 1.2. And if you left that money alone, based on math and the history of the stock market, your money would double every seven years if you got a 10% return average over that time span. So you'd have $2.4 million at 67 years old. That's a pretty good deal, right? I could live with that.

Okay. And that's if you guys continue to work and you continue to invest. So that would be my plan, but my bigger worry, again, is that you go back into debt because you go, we cleaned up some debt, let's go get some more. You know what I mean? So this is like, you're like leapfrogging thanks to this wonderful retirement account, which you've done a great job investing in,

but my bigger worry is your consumer behavior hasn't changed. You need to draw a line in the sand before you guys pay this all off and say, we are done with debt, we're taking debt off the table, no more. And would it be okay that, like, let's say that I just did everything except the primary and then just work on the primary mortgage?

I mean, would that be okay? Yeah, I would attack it aggressively. I would recommend just paying it all off. You can do it in any order and as as fast or as slow as you want to um you like bringing up your payments would really help you guys build wealth for these last few years as you do catch up contributions and retirement accounts and all of this stuff yeah you like debt why do you like it so much i don't know it just i guess it just it just kind of kind of worked its way in no you made a bunch of choices you don't know. I guess it just kind of worked its way in.

No, you made a bunch of choices. You don't like saying no, do you? Yeah, that's true. What did you use the equity loan for? To fix up the home that we're in, the primary home. Do you have an emergency fund? I think I have about $6,000 in cash. You're the brokest millionaire that I know. Like you're a straight-up broke millionaire.

You have all this money. You guys make so much money. You live. So you're America. Congratulations. You have an amazing family, an amazing income, and you just spend insanely. Yeah, that's kind of what it looks like here's george said i'll say it a little bit more direct than george because he's nicer than me that's true you're gonna have to act like an adult for the rest of your life or you're gonna have saved up

a couple of million bucks you're gonna pay this debt off and you're gonna be broke because then you're gonna be like well we need a bigger house and let's keep this one as a rental and let's get a this and then let's do a slap it up flip it and reverse it and who let the dogs out you're gonna have so many other new stupid loans like you don't have to be a grown-up and just say hey we got our house this is our home this is where we're going to live we're going to keep working we're going to be millionaires come what may we're going to have some money to take care of ourselves so we don't have to borrow money from our kids or they're not going to have to come to our rescue. And we're going to go out a couple times a week and we're going to live good lives.

But the days of us just being reckless children with our money is over. Yeah. Now, just a bit of a twist. Would it be best if I took the money out of 401k and pay at least everything except the primary or sell the rental and use the equity to pay everything except the primary? What's this rental cash flowing? Uh, 1500 a month. And that's with the mortgage payment still on it?

Yes. Like what, is that your net profit? No, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's 600, 600 a month. That's your net profit right now? Yes. Like what? Is that your net profit? No, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's 600, 600 a month. That's your net profit right now? Yes. And that will increase to what if you pay off the rental today? It would, it would be 1500. Wow. That's pretty sweet. Yeah. Pay that off. That $600 gives me GAS, man. Like how much would you have to save up for a broken air

conditioner or a roof or the new sink? Cause your tenant busted, like. Like, how much would you have to save up for a broken air conditioner or a roof or a new sink because your tenant busted? Like, dude, you got to. You guys have a lot of risk in your life. Yeah, I do. You can undo this. But again, you've got to change your behavior. And so your new mantra needs to be, do we have the money right now? And that's a very hard thing to change at 59 and a half.

Because if you answered that correctly, you guys would be $0 in debt. Hey, the repair, we can't do that right now. We need to save up. Good news, we make $140,000. Bad news, we only have $6,000 saved because we've been squandering it every month. So this is a big life change to make, Tony. You're calling, which tells me you're at least partially ready for it. Yeah, yeah, I've partially ready for it. Yeah, yeah.

I've been ready to pull the trigger, but I've just been having such a great dilemma as to which way to do it, you know? Well, right now you need to do things in order, which is no investing until the debt's paid off and until you have a six-month emergency fund. Okay. And you can, again, leapfrog all of that and go, all right, I'm paying off all the debt today. All the mortgages are gone. Now we've freed up all these payments. This thing's cash flowing amazingly. We've freed up the mortgage.

Now we can use that to invest and max out retirement accounts and pay for everything in cash. And that's what I would do in your shoes if you can draw that line in the sand. And I'm not sure you're quite there. I also think you're going to have to take your wife out to dinner. You and your wife are going to have to do this together. Yeah, is your wife on board with all this? I'm not sure you're quite there. I also think you're going to have to take your wife out to dinner. You and your wife are going to have to do this together. Yeah, is your wife on board with all this? My wife. Well, she's a little bit

less on board than I am, let me tell you. Well, she's not calling in stressed about this, which tells me you've got some selling to do. Yeah, but I think sitting down at the table over dinner and saying, hey, as a family, Tony from Tucson, the family, we don't borrow money anymore. It's over. We're free. We finally cut the chains. We're done. We don't borrow money anymore. I want to be free in my last 20 or 30 years.

This is The Ramsey Show. Our scripture of the day, Matthew 10, 14. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Jordan Peterson said, you are not obligated to associate with people who are making your life worse. Hmm.

A lot of wisdom there. That's not what James Child tells me when he books us together, Jordan. Oh, wow. My feelings would be hurt if I had any left, John. That's right. You make my life better, George. You make my dreams come true.

Now you got weird. The great Hall and Oates said that. Now you got weird. It's a bonus quote for you guys. All right, let's go to the phones. Dana joins us up next in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Dana, what's going on? Hi.

So my husband actually just finished your book. Yes. He absolutely loved it. You married a great man. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So he's actually going to, he started reading John Deloney's book for anxiety now. So he's like all invested in that. But my question is, so my husband and I have been going back and forth. We do talk very freely about finances. Um, so that's not a concern at all, but we're trying to pay off my car by the end of this year. Um, we're both 26 years old and this is like such a goal for us. But the last few years we have been

really trying, um, to work really hard. We have, um have both full-time jobs and we bought a house in 2020 and we've been remodeling our entire house basically with like all cashflow. We have taken out no loans or anything for that. Good. But I guess like our biggest thing is just trying to figure out how to pay off by the end of this year while still trying to live like a youthful life because we've been putting that kind of on hold to try and get like our house and all of that kind of situated first. So what total debt do you have left? Is it just the car or is there more? So it's just the car and our mortgage. We have no other like credit card

debt or any other debt whatsoever no student loans any of that how would you like articulate for me what a youthful life is what is that well so we got married in 2020 and um we just kind of put like our life on hold a little bit we didn didn't really do much. You bought a house and you're remodeling the entire thing. How is that putting your life on hold? Well, we never got to go on our honeymoon. We haven't gone on a vacation, just the two of us, since 2018. You can't afford one. Y'all have car payments.

I mean, we make a decent income. But you're broke! what do you guys make so collectively we make 125 000 a year wonderful what's left on the car loan so i have 20 000 on my car loan i just got it last year i don't see why you guys can't pay off this car loan this year and go on a vacation. Easy, easy, easy. What am I missing? Okay. Is your mortgage like ginormous? No, it's like $1,400 a month. Okay. So where's all the other money going other than this home remodel project? So we have about $32,000 in investing and then $32,000 in savings. What do you mean investing? Like in Roth IRAs and I have a 401k through work.

Okay. So non-retirement, what do you guys have that you could liquidate or sell? So probably about like $32,000. That's your in savings right now? Yeah. Why not pay off the car today? Yeah. You still have $12,000 left over and then add a little more.

I'm really stressed about that. Why? Because I grew up in a home where like there were no savings and that really like stresses me out to think that like it could be so low. Why do you think you're any better off owing $20,000 to a lender? That would stress me out. Here's what you're doing. You're purchasing this safety and making somebody else wealthy.

You're buying insurance on your fear and the insurance is your car note while you have the cash to pay it off. It's an illusion. Do you get what I'm saying? What's your car payment? Yeah. It is $450 a month. Okay, so play it out. You pay off this car today. You have $12,000 in savings, and you add that $450 to whatever else you were throwing, and you restock the savings account within a few months. Now you guys are completely debt-free from consumer debt. You have a fully funded emergency fund.

Now we can save up and go on the vacation and invest 15% of our incomes. You're going on a rad vacation. Okay. If your plan worked, you'd be on vacation by now. And we're just showing you a different way that you could snap your fingers and be debt-free and still have money

left over you yeah dude your annual plan your annual goal to pay off your car could be today the bigger problem is you need to figure out where all this money's going you guys get to get on an every dollar budget and go we make 125 000 how do we we not able to save up a thousand or 2000 bucks a month? So another thing is that we pretty much pay for a lot of our healthcare out of pocket because we, I don't have a job where I get my healthcare through there. So I pay for it out of pocket, which is very significant every month. Um, and my husband is diabetic. So we, you know, put a decent amount every year into like at least 10 to 15,000 probably into healthcare every year. Do you all run that through an HSA? A health savings account?

Do you have a high deductible healthcare plan that has an HSA attached to it, a health savings account? No, we don't have a health savings account. We both have like a $2,000 deductible. Okay. Well, long term, it may be best for you guys to have an employer that subsidizes the health care if you want to alleviate that. Yeah. Because you can go from paying $10,000 or $15,000 to a few hundred a month. What does he make with his family?

So he makes, so I mostly make like most of the money. That's what I thought. So he works, yeah. I've never heard someone say I work for my family, they pay me $100,000. It's like I make $13 an hour as a grown man working for my family. Yeah. So he makes like probably close to like $19 an hour as a grown man working for my family. Yeah, so he makes probably close to $19 an hour. Would he make more if he was out there in the private marketplace doing the same thing?

I feel like the carpentry world isn't the best for a lot of income, though. Oh, boy. Well, I must run into a different kind of carpentry worker because they make more than $19 an hour. My son busted our handrail on our stairs and the carpenter came over and he basically was like, I can get this done, but I'm going to have to have one of your children. Yeah, they do well.

They do real well. Here's a hard conversation that a lot of young couples have. They have a dream for what their world is going to look like. You're going to do this job and I'm going to do this job. Sometimes we go to college. Sometimes we do apprenticeships. Sometimes we get there and then the life

we want to have can't be supported by the jobs that we wanted also. So we have to make a decision. Either we're going to tone down. We're just going to be a family doesn't do vacations we go to koas we love them we're campers that's what we do right or honey i want to do an 18 month 24 month transition where you go work for a builder that has a health care plan

that maybe still pays you 19 an hour but it's a net gain for our family because we have ten thousand dollars in medical expenses every year just off the top and that's just what that's just what a man's got to do he's got to go provide for his family right right right uncomfortable yes yeah but i think y'all can do that a quick google search just showed me the median salary for carpenters right now 51 to 60 grand which means a lot make more than that a lot make some make less than that but he should be making closer to 24 to 35 an hour at this stage i agree absolutely and that's where i'm like if he can go get a five dollar an hour

raise that could change your life right but again you guys can be debt free with an emergency fund really quickly today you've got to get control of the money you have before you go out trying to make more of it right and we have been using um a buddy app for the last year or so where we log literally all of our purchases so we were able to see like where all of our money goes what was that called a app? It's called the buddy app. Yeah, you literally log all of your purchases into categories. I mean, logging is one thing, but actually creating a plan and tracking it is different. That's what EveryDollar does. I'm going to gift you that one, and let me know how it goes for you. So hang on the line.

Eboo will gift you EveryDollar Premium to help you guys take control of your money. But he's got to be involved in this budget. You guys have to get on a plan together long term. And that plan is the baby steps if you want to do it right. That puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the books. Thank you to Dr. John Deloney, to Ibu, to Ben, to James, to Josh, to Andrew, and to you, America. Thank you for listening. We'll be back before you know it. Hey folks, Dave here. You want to hear even more life-changing content from Ramsey? Download the Ramsey Network app so you can catch all your favorite shows all in one place, like the Ramsey Show, Smart Money Happy Hour, and the Dr. John Deloney Show.

You'll get real talk about life, relationships, money, and your career. Plus, the app lets you browse by topic, like debt, business, or selling your home. Get the content you want whenever and wherever you want to listen. Download the Ramsey Network app today.