The Ramsey Show - You Dont Build Wealth By Ignoring Basic Financial Principles

Starting point is 00:00:00 This episode is filled with some of our best calls and advice. But unless you take what you hear and put it to work in your own life, you'll be stuck with the same money stress in 2026. So make a change and download every dollar today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit Union Studio. This is The Ramsey Show.

Starting point is 00:00:36 I'm Ken Coleman, Rachel Cruz joins me. And we're here for you. 8255-2-2-25-2-2-5-2-5 is the number to jump in, and we would love to coach you up today. We start off with Dan in Grand Rapids. Dan, how can we help you today? My wife and I are preparing to retire. As a matter of fact, her last day of work is tomorrow. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:00:59 The beginning of February, so 40 years of effort towards us. Dan, how are you? Dan, I got to ask you this. I mean, we men have to unite because we don't do this well. And we got Rachel here to help us on this before we dive in. What is the plan when she finishes the day tomorrow and she wraps it up and comes home? Do you got something planned? You know, we don't.

Starting point is 00:01:24 It actually came on pretty quick. We both had this date in February picked. And then her department dissolved and they said you can either take a buyout or you can transfer to another department. So this all happened for her in the last three weeks. Okay, but presumably she's excited about this? Oh, absolutely, yes. Dan, listen, I don't want to spend too much time on this. Rachel's here to back me up.

Starting point is 00:01:47 This is where you've got to step up. I mean, you've got to do something special. She comes home, maybe a little surprise. If she hates surprises, plan a little something. Yeah, a nice dinner, a gift, 40 years, babe. You're wrapping it up. We've got to celebrate it's my point. I don't want to, and I'm glad I said this, Dan, because you might have blown it had

Starting point is 00:02:05 and I brought this up. I appreciate that. She works from home, but I will bring some home and make it monumental. She works for a home. Okay. Rachel, what does he do in that situation? I feel like this is your category. Champagne.

Starting point is 00:02:17 Pop the bottle. There is. Neither one of us drink. Oh, man. We are striking out, Dan. The grape juice, sparkling grape juice. No, just do something special. All right.

Starting point is 00:02:29 So we've now helped you there. That's the help you didn't know you needed. Now, keep going. Plus your marriage, we got by. So we work very hard to get where we're at, and we're very comfortable with what we're planning for retirement. We're very comfortable with our financial advisor. But I have one concern that he's got me, a plan that he's got for me.

Starting point is 00:02:50 And we are going to put an addition on our house next spring. So we're planning to spend about $100 to $120,000 to do that. Now, my plan was just kind of take that off the top of our 401K and our savings. and make that do the addition. What he's suggesting, and he gave me, I guess, good reasons, is he's suggesting that I take out like a HELOC or a home equity loan to do this project. And he said, well, chunk it away pretty quick. But he said there's reasons for that.

Starting point is 00:03:21 First of all, I'll be paying a lower interest rate than he can make me. That's arguable. The second thing he said was it is definitely a tax write off. And the third thing was the fact that it'll save me 20, plus thousand dollars next year in taxes because of the tax bracket that he's aligning us with. And it just, it's very hard for me to think about going into debt immediately as I retire. Well, yeah, 100% because is he, where is he planning on having you guys pay off the HELOC? When he said you can throw a bunch of, like a bunch of money at it, is he thinking just a little bit every year so that you don't mess up the taxes and all of it?

Starting point is 00:03:59 Yeah, he's saying, well, chunk it away. And I don't know how relevant chunk it away is if it's a year or five years. but he said, we'll just make a monthly payment on it. And again, that it'll give us a tax advantage. It'll save us taxes and all this, which all kind of makes sense. But dang, I just got myself 40 years of work to get out of debt and retire. And then just thinking about going back to the debt just kind of scares me. Well, some financial advisors are so stupid. They don't even think about your values and what you want out of life.

Starting point is 00:04:25 And clearly, living a debt-free life has a price tag for you. You know, you can't put a price on it. but, you know, it's a value of yours that he's not putting into any consideration. And so as he goes around, but so, Michael, yeah, so no, I would not do this. I would 100% just cash flow it. And if the cash flow comes out of, I don't know if it's the 401K, if you guys have money elsewhere. But you have the ability to cash flow, right, Dan? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:52 We got a set amount that we're going into retirement with that we're comfortable with and it's going to last this long beyond our retirement. Yeah. And just thinking of taking 100 or 120 right off the top of that. that and doing the addition was my plan. Yes. Well, let's just put your plan. He offered a suggestion.

Starting point is 00:05:08 Yeah. I want to put your plan to the test, not his suggestion. We hate his suggestion. We hate it. So let's put your plan to the test. Let's assume that you didn't get this advice at all. Okay. Yes.

Starting point is 00:05:21 And you just went ahead and pulled the trigger on your plan. How do you feel emotionally about your plan? Any stress? No. I don't think so. Yeah. We have kind of intentionally, we have this 403B that we've been carrying for a long time, and I've been very aggressive with it.

Starting point is 00:05:40 And I took it from 20,000 to it's about 170 right now. So my thought was that is just some play money we've been actually not planning on that we've accumulated that would do this project for. What's the addition for? Well, we raised seven kids in our house, and it was fine with nine people, but now what we find is with adult children instead of nine people every day. day we have 29 people, you know, 10 times a year. So we want to double our kitchen and our living 50 square. How much, how much do you guys have in retirement total? Just about two million.

Starting point is 00:06:14 Okay. Golly. See, and he's going through all these hoops and stuff, about this and then and that. You guys have two million dollars. Do you know what I mean? And you want to take a hundred thousand of it. And if you go and burn that amount in the middle of the room, like you're not going to have any emotion towards it because it's such a small percentage of your net worth. So that's where the peace of mind of your value system overrides his snaking and maneuvering through where it's going to be not even that much money at the end of the day. Do you know what I'm saying? I agree. I mean, Dan, you answered your own question. I asked it that way just simply for you to hear yourself say, his plan gives me a little bit of heartburn, enough that the Pepsid AC's not working and you called us

Starting point is 00:06:54 today. Right? It did, yeah. I think I knew where you were going to take me, but I just kind of wanted to hear it. Yeah, and I appreciate that, and we're happy to be here for you. But you, sir, are the ultimate arbiter on this. Your body, your heart, your head. And, man, you're just like, man, if I can put this edition on, and I'm paying cash for it for my grandkids to be there. Yeah, and I would run the numbers too, because I am curious because he looks like the, the rates go up and down. Like, it really is very dependent upon what's going on.

Starting point is 00:07:21 No, don't run the rates at all. I don't want you to be tempted. No, no, it's not a temptation, but it's that versus what, you know what I mean? Like, that versus the taxes that you're going to pay on a hundred. Like, like what I'm saying is I think it ends up being closer to a wash than what you realize. I think that the guy, I think he's like nitpicking every little thing. I agree. To say, I'm making this number up.

Starting point is 00:07:39 I haven't done the calculations. But to save 10 great, whatever the thing is. And that's pennies to you guys. So I'm like, the peace of mind is worth that so much more. Yeah. Just listening to you describe everything he told you versus your plan. Yours is simple. Boom.

Starting point is 00:07:54 We're done. We're done. And I guess, do you all have my thing you said kind of makes sense. Do you have money elsewhere, Dan, where to his point, do you have money sitting in a high-yield savings or something where you wouldn't necessarily have to pay taxes if you use that cash? We have about a $40,000 savings account. And then 401K, I have a lump sum pension and a 403B. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha.

Starting point is 00:08:21 Nope, that's great. Yeah, no, I would not go borrow on my house to do an addition when I freaking have the money for it. Yeah. That's the bottom line. Trust your gut, Dan. There's a whole bunch of science on this that trusting the gut is not this mysterious thing. It's actually the brain sending physical signals to the body. And we feel it in our body.

Starting point is 00:08:41 That's a real thing. It has the same validity as the logic. Listen to your heart. Listen to your body. You were right. Thanks for calling. Tell the financial advisor, thanks, no thanks. The holidays are supposed to be joyful, but they can also be expensive.

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Starting point is 00:09:41 So stop stressing over your budget and start saving instead. Go to boostmobile.com slash Ramsey and unwrap the savings today. That's boostmobile.com slash Ramsey. Restrictions apply. See boostmobile.com slash Ramsey for details. Well, you know, some days we have a fabulous audience. Most days for the show, we have a fabulous audience. It comes to the lobby here at Ramsey Solutions.

Starting point is 00:10:16 And we can see these fine people looking through the glass. We go out and say hi and all that kind of stuff. And today it happens to be a birthday day. We've had two birthdays. And so we had young Millie. who was 28, and now we just met the fabulous Carol, who just turned 80 a couple days ago, and she's got the team out there, and notice the glasses.

Starting point is 00:10:37 She's got a sash. What do you call that? A sash? She's got a tiara, and she's got these fabulous glasses, James. She's hating this right now, I think. By the way, Carol looked as though she was in shock, James. She's very embarrassed by all the attention, And so one of the party that she's with loaned me their glasses.

Starting point is 00:10:57 So I wanted to say a special happy birthday to you, Carol. You look fabulous. You don't look a day over 50. And we're very blessed that you're here. And they're about to hit the town. You should meet them on Broadway. Actually, I'm going to ask James if I can take the rest of the show off. You look like you're ready to play Benny and the Jets or something right now.

Starting point is 00:11:18 Biddy and the Jets. So there you go. There you go. How about that? fun stuff. So, happy birthday again. So fun. So fun when people spend their special day with us. I know. We get anniversions. We get honeymoon sometimes. Yeah, we do. That's always the craziest one. I'm like, I can't believe you're here on your honeymoon. What are I'm doing here? The Ramsey Show question of the day is brought to you by Y Reefi. Why Refi offers a different approach to paying off your defaulted private student loans with a low fixed rate for less stress.

Starting point is 00:11:45 Go to Yrefi.com slash Ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y.com slash Ramsey. It may not be available in all. States. All right. Today's question comes from Aden in New Mexico. My wife is a contract business consultant and is also self-employed as an artist. When it comes to paperwork, she's very disorganized. It has gotten to the point where I have taken my tax documents to a tax preparer twice because I didn't want the IRS auditing me. I beg her every year to get her stuff together and to file on time, but it never happens, which leads to arguments. How do I get her to understand the seriousness of this situation. Oof.

Starting point is 00:12:24 That's tough. Well, it's taxes. I'm like, back, back to taxes. Yeah. But you've got to do it. Yeah. And that's what I was going to say. So this is a relationship issue.

Starting point is 00:12:33 But in this situation, it's not you coming to the to the table with a, hey, let me tell you about these baby steps. Let me tell you about this Ramsey plan. I'd like to get us on a budget. Like, this is the federal government. This is the law. Yeah. There's a wiggle room here.

Starting point is 00:12:48 So it seems like it needs to be a reality check. This isn't. to get her on board. Right. This is like, we will go to jail. This is the law. And I don't think I look good in orange, sweetheart. You know, or whatever you've got to say here.

Starting point is 00:13:02 This comes back to a relationship thing, but I hate to make it so simplistic. I want you to weigh in, but I think it is, hey, this is super serious. This isn't my opinion. We have to do this. Let's make this a lot less difficult by let's get all our stuff together and be on the same page. Yeah. And I think self-awareness is huge because she's a lot. an artist and I'm not pointing fingers but I do think there is a I think that's a fair

Starting point is 00:13:27 when you are an artist there is a little bit more of a free spirit within you right numbers is usually not your strength and vice versa people that are great with numbers are terrible usually at being creative so it's a again it is how you were wired and gifted and then I think it is a self-aware adult to say hey I have things and weaknesses in my life and in my personality I'm going to be an adult and I have to obey the law but also what systems can I put in place to help me in those weaknesses because I'm not naturally good at all of this, right? She's very disorganized, is what he said. So that would be more of the conversation of, hey, what can we do to help you? It's not to point the finger at you constantly. It is, hey, yeah,

Starting point is 00:14:10 this is the law. So it has to be done. So what systems can we put in place together? And as the husband, I'm here to help you. And I mean, he's like on his own. We're like, I'm just taking my tax documents and blah over here, which I get because he doesn't want to go to jail either. right? So he's kind of hedged his bet. Yeah, seriously. But I think it's, it is, hey, how can I help us help you put some systems into place? But there is a point that she has to be an adult, right? Like, you can, you can be on that. You can, you can carve a situation in a conversation in a certain way to a point. But there's also a point, Kim, with all of this, especially the law. But then other things of like, my wife just continues to spend more. There's just a point that, like, you're not

Starting point is 00:14:50 able to change that person. And they have to be the adult. and it's sad when they're not. But we see that a lot around here. It's a really tough situation. Thanks for sharing the question with us. Knoxville, Tennessee, the home of Rachel's alma mater. Sam is there. Sam, how can we help?

Starting point is 00:15:07 Yes, I have a question for you regarding to my truck. Have a 2001 truck, and it just rolled out of warranty. I intend to keep the truck for a longer period of time, or at least I hope so, and was offered an extended warranty by the dealership. And so what I did is added up all of the cost of repairs that wouldn't have been covered or were covered by warranty that no longer would. And it came out to about $8,800 in the four years that I've owned the truck. So it hasn't been necessarily super reliable, very exciting.

Starting point is 00:15:50 expensive to repair. And as I intend on keeping the truck or want to keep the truck, I kind of want to explore my options. Should I buy this warranty for $5,600? Should I risk it continue driving the truck for another 100,000 miles without warranty? Or should I go out and get a new truck with a fresh warranty? What's your opinion and kind of just want to gauge a direction to go in? What's been the repairs? I mean, about 2,000 a year is what it ends up being. What has it been? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:22 It's really little stuff, to be honest with you. It's the motor in the tailgate. It's got one of these automatic tailgates. It was the air conditioning control module in the dash. It was a sensor in the, I guess, the parking sensor system. Yeah. It's what I'm concerned about. Go ahead.

Starting point is 00:16:42 Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, I mean, And, you know, as you kind of look through this from a math perspective, it's less than like 200 bucks a month is what it ends up being, which just feels expensive. Like if the stuff isn't being fixed, like that's one issue. But I'm not a big fan of extended warranties because I'm like, it's the things should work. And if not, I would rather it be in my court. Unless there's some crazy recall right now, Sam, and they're like, you know, giving you some

Starting point is 00:17:09 discounts on the extended warranty or whatever it may be. But I, we usually factor in cars. the sinking funds that we've set up, that if anything goes wrong with the cars, we use that sinking fund. So again, for yours, it's coming out to be around $200 a month. So I would probably just set some money aside. And then hopefully most of this gets fixed because, I mean, the fact that you keep going in and in for repairs is, that's frustrating. Yeah, no, you're right. And for me, it's not really a money issue. You know, the truck's paid off, right? The $200 a month is really negligible based on our income. It's more kind of a, I guess a psychological field. Do I keep throwing

Starting point is 00:17:52 money at a truck? No, that's a different question. That's where I came down. Yeah, that's a different question. So that's where I came down. I agree with everything Rachel said, I'm going to come down on this one and go, I'm the kind of guy. This is the way I'm wired, where I'm not going to keep dealing with this truck. I'm going to go, this thing's a lemon, or it's an issue with the manufacturer, and they just don't do a good job making the parts, and I'm just tired of this mess. For me, because in your situation, I would be in the same boat. Any mechanical work I got to do, I'm not stress out about it. I got the money set aside, whatever, whatever, whatever. But it's like, it's time. Time is money. You remember that old phrase? It's kind of true. It's a 2001, Sam, is that what you said?

Starting point is 00:18:31 Yeah, it's 2001 with 80,000 miles on it, and it's a hybrid. And I don't know if you kind of look into some of these hybrid issues, but if the hybrid motors or the battery, 21 or no 2001 i don't know they're making hybrids in oh one no it's a 21 21 yeah you kept saying oh one i was like man they were ahead of their game with that migraine in 2001 i couldn't spell hybrid in 20 000 okay so 2021 that makes way more sense i was like i'd get rid of it i'd sell it i'd sell it okay and that's somebody else's problem and i'd go get myself a truck that had a much higher rating that I'm not in the shop all the time. And again, it's just the nick.

Starting point is 00:19:13 These are like little paper cuts it feels like, what a nuisance, man. I'd be like, why would I buy your warranty? How about you make a better truck? That's what I'd have said to the dealer, but I can be sassy that way. But I feel like that's true. I know, absolutely. I got an idea. Why don't you make a better truck that I don't need all this warranty

Starting point is 00:19:31 because all the stuff seems like it's little piddly stuff. So you got the cash. I'd get rid of the nuisance. Let it be somebody else's. problem. You know, one of the first things I discovered working in the financial world is how absolutely devastating it is when the breadwinner of a family dies. And there's too little life insurance or none at all. Grieving families are suddenly left behind, scrambling to pay bills and trying to make ends meet. I also discovered that there are a lot of rip-offs in the life insurance

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Starting point is 00:21:02 Visit zander.com. For instant online quotes, or for a more personal touch, give them a call at 800-356-4282. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. Rachel Cruz is alongside, and we are here for you, AAA-825-2-25-2-25-3-2-25. Henry's up next in Tampa, Florida. Henry, how can we help? Hi, everybody.

Starting point is 00:21:42 Thank you so much for taking my call. How are you guys? Good. How are you today? I'm all right. Question for you. Quick and easy question. I mean, not easy question, but I have a lease that I purchased in the last year or two there,

Starting point is 00:21:58 but just heard about you guys. The lease is for the next two more years left on it there. I wondering if I should ever get out of it, pay out of the lease there to get some money, not necessarily the money back there, but pay a lease there, I mean, sell the car or get out of the lease to be able to pay some of my debt. Yeah, it's a great question. What are you paying a month? $1,500.

Starting point is 00:22:31 Oh. Oof. What kind of car is it? Mercedes GLE 350 Yeah That's pretty nice Very nice car Good taste Henry

Starting point is 00:22:41 You got some good taste Thank you very much But it's eating you alive And it's not worth it Yeah it's not worth We got to get it out of here right Okay Yeah I just

Starting point is 00:22:51 Is there a lot of Give us the terms Of where you are Walk us through the terms All right So if I were to Terminate my payoff right now be about $60,000 there to pay off there.

Starting point is 00:23:07 I've looked on, I've heard you guys talking about it. So I looked on Kelly Blue Buck, and it's about, you get 46, 46, $47,000 on it. And then, was that private sale? And I was that? Private sale. Yeah, so I'll say a little bit of private sale. So I would leave you with $13,000 that you would owe, right? Yes, yes.

Starting point is 00:23:29 And do you have any cash, Henry? Not much, no. Okay, what do you make a year? So I make about $250,000. Oh, that's good news. Yeah, that's great. So you would need another car, correct? Correct.

Starting point is 00:23:48 To be able, yeah, to replace it. Yeah, so we've got to replace it. So we got the $13,000 that you would then owe, and then we've got the cost of a replacement car. But with your income, you can get something decent if you really work on your budget, right? Yeah, that would be my goal, because two more years. of this.

Starting point is 00:24:04 I mean, that's a lot, right? It's a good amount. Yeah, for sure. So that's... I mean, I'm, according to you guys, I mean, I was just, this is the first time

Starting point is 00:24:14 I ever thought it was like that I'm broke, but I do all have a good amount of debt as well, too, over a million dollars debt. Okay, so tell, yeah, give me the rest of your financial picture. I'm just curious where you're at. So I, student loans, $180,000.

Starting point is 00:24:29 Mm-hmm. Credit card debt, about $70,000. and then mortgage is about 690,000. Okay. Who, Henry, you've been living the life, haven't you? Yes, me and my wife, not. So I guess let me rephrase that because I know you mentioned total income. My wife is making $100,000, so a total is $350.

Starting point is 00:24:52 Okay. So I'm $250. You guys have plenty of money. You just got to get under control. Yes. And, you know, and that's, The other thing, too, they're trying to go from that life to hearing about you guys and changing life completely. Totally.

Starting point is 00:25:07 I'm like, let's go hard. And my wife is like, what are you talking about there? So, you know, it's definitely different and hard there to actually talk to her about it as well, too, just the budget. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think Henry, too, just as a piece of advice, usually when, you know, when people are in your position, the one that kind of hears, okay, there's a different way we can do this. And you go in and tell your wife, we're going to stop shopping and stop eating out. She's probably like, what the?

Starting point is 00:25:33 Henry, what are you talking about? You've lost your mind. So I think approaching her in that aspect is the why. So I am curious, Henry, for you, what has caused you up to this point living the way you have with money, both of you, and then you hear us, which is very counter how you've been living.

Starting point is 00:25:51 What's been appealing about that? Like, what is it in you that's like, oh my gosh, I want that side of money, not what I've been doing? That idea of freedom. I'm like trying to talk with you, but I'm like holding my breath. And like the heaviness of just owing so much money, like the fact that I'm like, wait a second, I'd never thought about how much I owe and how much debt I'm in.

Starting point is 00:26:15 I've always been thinking about right now how much I owe for the month. Which is like when I calculated it all, after talking to you guys or listen to you guys, I was like, I owe a million dollars. Like what in the world? Yeah, yeah. And so and I'm like, I can't do this anymore, especially when the wife said, oh, I'd love to have a news on the kitchen. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Starting point is 00:26:34 We have no money for that. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, Henry, that's what I want you to communicate to her is I can't breathe. Like I, and we hear that a lot, Henry, that you're not the only one. It's this level of stress and anxiety and weight because you don't own your life. Somebody, these credit cards, right? Everything owns you.

Starting point is 00:26:54 And it's exhausting. To your point, we work hard. And I feel like I have no money, right? When I ask you how much money you have saved. Exactly. It's like, I don't have it. And we work so much hard. Like, over time sometimes too.

Starting point is 00:27:04 And I'm like, how do I am I having nothing at the end of the paycheck there? I'm like, is this what everyone does? I don't understand this. Right, exactly. So how much do you guys bring home a month? I was trying to do it with taxes and everything. But when you guys get paid, how much per month are you bringing in, both you and your wife? So I think I'm about 12,000 or 13,000.

Starting point is 00:27:24 And she is about 4,000. So I would say about 16, 17,000. 16,000. 16,000. Okay. And that's after taxes. Are you guys funding retirement? Yes.

Starting point is 00:27:36 Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a way, wait, wait, wait, wait. You make $350,000 a year. You do. Yes. No, no. Yes.

Starting point is 00:27:45 So total. Total. So, so I don't understand those take home numbers. What is your take home? Yours, just you? You know, just me about 16, 16,000. I'm sorry. 12,000 for me.

Starting point is 00:28:01 And you're off. If you asked about putting into retirement, yes, I've been putting in. Yeah, off of gross. So what's your gross? Your gross and her gross. Total gross is 350. Right. You're 250.

Starting point is 00:28:14 She's 100. And then after taxes, retirement, insurance, like after all of that, right? I just felt like her take home was really low off of a $100,000 dollar salary. Her take home only being $4,000. Yeah, that's true. low to me. So I just don't know if you know your numbers. And the reason I'm calling that out is part of this problem is you don't really know your numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Or she's having way too much withholding taken out. And at this point, you're brand new to us. Rachel, explain the

Starting point is 00:28:43 retirement should be paused and all of that right now to bring in as much as they can. Yeah, for sure. So, so, yeah, so Henry, the whole concepts you guys really need to dig in because if you're getting a big tax refund every year, that's money back in the paycheck. That may not be shown here. I would be pausing retirement. I'd be pausing everything. And you and your wife again sitting down and saying, hey, together, it's going to be really hard to do this without her. So I want Henry to be as honest and vulnerable with her tonight and just talk about how scared, I mean, how scared you are honestly. Can you be in the fall of me? I know. We can't. We'll coach you. We'll coach you. No, but it's probably should have had her on this call. Yeah. And to show her and

Starting point is 00:29:24 show her the realization. And the truth is, Henry, for your own mental sake, you can't, you guys can't keep doing this, right? I mean, you're, you're going to hit a breaking point eventually. And so for you guys, it's going to look different. And so I would sit down with her and just say, hey, here's where I want to go. Here's the goals I want to have. And you can kind of map them out ahead of time just to say, okay, you know, we have, gosh, yeah, almost a million dollars, not including the mortgage, but the credit cards, the student loan, all of it. mapping it out to say with our income and doing a budget and saying if we just cut everything. And Henry, to your point, this is going to be a 180 from the lifestyle you guys have been living.

Starting point is 00:30:04 You've been living kind of the high life and enjoying life. And it's going to, to get out of this, we always say you can wander your way into debt. You cannot wander your way out. And so there has to be an intentional plan. That's right. But gosh, I mean, in, you know, three or four years, you guys could have a completely different life, financially speaking. Oh, I think so. And you getting a side hustle, Henry?

Starting point is 00:30:25 I would love that. Yeah, adding more income and all of that. So, you know, if you stay on the line, Henry, Christian is going to pick up, and we're going to give you a financial peace university for you and your wife to sit down together and go through it. It's our nine lesson course. And this gives you the basics. And so it can be, she can get mad at us, not you of delivering the information.

Starting point is 00:30:44 And Henry, I would say this. I think do what Rachel said as far as your approach to her, but I think you need to show her you mean business by you getting rid of that car. Yep. That will show her. You're not just talking. Get it out of here. You're making some sacrifice.

Starting point is 00:30:58 And then one of these days, you'll be driving one of those bad boys again, but it'll be cash. This is The Ramsey Show. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, the holidays are here, and the holidays are full of traditions. Some of these traditions we love, some of these traditions we just tolerate. In addition to the traditions, this time of year can also bring a lot of noise, pressure, and even loneliness.

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Starting point is 00:32:36 When it comes to your money, Ken, one of the largest purchases that majority of people make is their home. Yes. And when it comes to buying and selling your home, it can be very overwhelming, right? The whole housing market, the industry, when it comes to real estate, it can be really hard to tackle, especially alone.

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Starting point is 00:33:35 All right. Up next, we're going to Diego in Sacramento. Hey, Diego. Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you. Absolutely. My wife and I just, oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, my wife and I just had a baby and we've been having a discussion about opening a

Starting point is 00:33:51 college account for him at 529. And my wife's on the fight of saving as much as we can enough to pay for a whole college tuition. And I'm more on the side of maybe not doing that just because, you know, for me, when I went to school, I didn't have that. And I think it built a lot of character in myself. You know, my parents, they provided a place for me to sleep. You know, they didn't charge me any rent. And, you know, they provided food for me every day. So I felt like I was really blessed that in what they gave me, you know, and what they could. And I felt like, you know, it built some character. I mean, I worked through school and, and, you know, showed me, like, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:28 the value of money and how, you know, when I'm paying for it for school, it, you know, it just showed me the value. I just wanted to get your head as an opinion on whether maybe there's like a middle point between my wife and I or maybe you should just avoid it altogether or, yeah, saving all of it that we can and maybe that's a good thing. Well, I think this comes down to, Rachel, how big of a stressor this is for you guys when you talk about it. Are you both pretty adamant and it gets kind of tense?

Starting point is 00:34:58 and there's a lot of separation, or are you guys a couple of more conversations from going, okay, I see it your way. I mean, what's the real tension level now on this? Oh, super low. I mean, we're very good about, you know, communicating. We've never had a problem with that. So when you told her your point of view, did she agree with you and go, hmm, that's interesting?

Starting point is 00:35:20 Or does she go, eh, it's too old school and I want to help? No, yeah, she says, yeah, pretty much you're saying, yeah, like, she would prefer, you know, us having more, you know, a better means in our parents. She's saying, like, we should, we should afford them in our kids that we didn't have. So let me tell you, Diego, the way you're going about this and your heart and your thought process, I really love because I do think that our kids have to have grit. Our kids have to have a level of struggle. Our kids have to be able to know how to appreciate things, not be entitled, know how to work hard, right?

Starting point is 00:35:56 like all of these elements of who they're going to be, the character part of them, we all want as parents, right? Or at least I hope parents want that for their kids. And that's what you're wanting, right? And so what you're thinking is you're going to do it through the means of paying for their own college.

Starting point is 00:36:11 So where I would challenge you is, are there other places that they can learn those same character qualities and, and also be able to have their college paid for? Because, Zhega, my parents paid for my college, and I'll tell you, there was stipulations around it. And so we had to go to an in-state school. We had to graduate in four years. And that was kind of the main barriers.

Starting point is 00:36:37 So I remember thinking, you know, I went to go to Auburn University. And I remember dad being like, all right, well, calculate the tuition and the difference between a school in Tennessee, a public university in Tennessee minus the tuition of a school in Alabama, you pay the difference. And I looked and I was like, oh, no thanks. go vols i'll go and stay yeah and then it was all right well now i have to take 15 hours every semester while some of my friends were taking nine so you know because people will graduate a semester late or a year later and they kind of just like worked their way through i had to be on a you know what

Starting point is 00:37:10 mean like i i i had to have that schedule so i think it's a misnomer to generalize if your school is paid for you're not going to have hard work and grit i don't think that's true i think it's a way that you feel that Winston, my husband, you know, he had to work his way through, not the tuition part, but everything else. He had to figure, he had to have a job to pay rent and pay for food and all of that, right? So, but I, so I think that there are ways

Starting point is 00:37:34 to accomplish what you want for your kids, and it may look different. And I'll give you one more example. Now I'll be quiet. Like, Ken, jump in. But like, for us right now, Diego, we have a 9, 7, and 5-year-old. And Winston sold his lawnmower about three years ago,

Starting point is 00:37:49 and we have a lawn company. he mow our lawn. And he really, really struggled with our kids not growing up watching him mow the lawn. Because he had a lawn care business in college and he was like, I want my kids to see physical.

Starting point is 00:38:04 I want, you know, he was so hard on that, on himself on that. But then as we talked, he was like, but right now my time is better spent with them on Saturdays

Starting point is 00:38:13 than going and doing that. What are ways now that we almost have to manufacture a life where they don't get what they want? They're going to have to work and do things to get what they want. So does that make sense?

Starting point is 00:38:23 I just don't want to overgeneralize that if your college is paid for, you're going to be some spoiled entitled brat. Because let me tell you, there probably are some spoiled entitled brats whose college is paid for and isn't paid for, but it's more of the character of who they are.

Starting point is 00:38:36 And maybe it's revealed to that. And I'm glad you really segued nicely for me. You didn't even know it. I'm going to throw a different angle at you, Diego. Because on one hand, I love the fact that you're going, I don't owe my kids a college education, and I don't think you do.

Starting point is 00:38:49 but I'm not going to qualify this. I'm just going to say this. And this comes from experience. Diego, just because you worked your way through college and you took all the benefits that you obviously did, doesn't mean that your child or children are going to do the same as you. They aren't you, number one. They really aren't. They really aren't.

Starting point is 00:39:12 They will have some of your DNA, but they are not you. and they will have different experiences, they will have different environments growing up. And I think one of the challenges that we face, and I'm just being really vulnerable here, that I've had to learn as a father of three, is that the things that I did, the things that I learned, the way that I handled life is so unique to me. And I know I'm saying something that it's completely obvious, but I think we forget this. And I would just say that in this case, if you played this out the way that you desire, Let's say your wife just went, I love that, Diego, let's do that.

Starting point is 00:39:51 There's a really high, high probability that one or both or all of your kids, however many you have, won't deal with it the way that you dealt with it. And they may go, dad's out of his mind, the old coot. He's a goofball. And I'm going to go get a student loan because I can. And they get it done so effortlessly. And the very thing that you idealized and kind of thought, this is how I see it going, it would even break your heart.

Starting point is 00:40:17 And so to that end, I would say, if you can fund it, you should. As an option, and the 529 as we teach, I'll give it back to my partner here. It's very, it's flexible as to how you can use those funds for lots of qualifications because the world, here's the other thing. The world's changing. The world is changing so quickly right now. What will higher ed look like when these babies are to that age? You and I have zero clue what it's going to look like. I hope that perspective helps you.

Starting point is 00:40:49 I don't think it's as easy as you just going, this is how I want to be because that's how it was for me. And I get that. If anybody gets that, believe me, I actually talk like that sometimes. You know me well. I'm trying to be transparent. And I think that's true.

Starting point is 00:41:04 And I think, and again, I want to reiterate, Diego, the sentiment of what you're longing for your kids to have is so good. Like, that is so good. Absolutely. Because we want our kids to be able to do that. But I think that there is. I'm like there's different other, and there's so much between. And like have them pay for their car when they're 60, right?

Starting point is 00:41:24 I mean, like there's things you can implement. Have them try an instrument. A sport, a hobby. Let them fail. And they're going to. And the world's hard enough in general, right? I'm like, they're going to bump up against it. But I think you can create an environment within your home between now and 18 that creates,

Starting point is 00:41:43 you know, I knock on wood, I believe this and I hope it's true. No, not perfect kids, but kids that you are able to shape under your household. And you as a parent get to put some of those guardrails in place. And if you give them everything they want, are they going to be more spoiled? Sure. If they got to work and figure out and problem solve, then that's going to be good for them too. So I think there's ways you can do it. But thanks for the call, Diego.

Starting point is 00:42:06 Thanks for all the guys in the booth. Thank you, Ken Coleman. Thank you, America. We'll be back. There's no better time to start protecting your home than right now. This month only, my listeners can take 50% off any new SimpliSafe home security system during their last chance Black Friday sale. Do not miss this deal. I've recommended SimpliSafe for over 10 years, and it's simply the best security system you can get for your home. That's because SimpliSafe helps stop crimes before they start. Their AI cameras detect threats early, and then live agents stop them by specifically.

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Starting point is 00:43:50 Onside Rachel Cruz, I'm Ken Coleman. So excited to be with you today. And we want to coach you up. AAA 8255-225 Antoinette is joining us now in Fort Worth, Texas. Antoinette, how can we help? Well, I'm going to be 62 next month, and I don't have anything safe for retirement. and I want to become a first-time homeowner, and I don't know if that's stupid and ridiculous, or if it's possible.

Starting point is 00:44:18 Well, I don't think it's stupid or ridiculous. Let's focus on the possible part. Give us a picture of your financial situation, given that you have zero retirement or very little retirement. I have no retirement, and I have no money for a down payment, so I would have to go USDA or sent them with a zero down, and so that would make my payment. even higher. No, you don't have to do that. You don't have to do that. Do you have any debt? Yes, I have some, but not unmanageable, and I'm getting it paid off really quick. Okay, how much debt do you have? I think credit karma said I had about $8,000 or something like that.

Starting point is 00:44:56 I just paid off $600 worth of two of my account in the last month, so. Is the 8,000 credit cards or personal loans? What is it? Let's see, I paid off the personal loan. and so one of them is my car and the rest of them are credit cards. I've got, I think, four credit cards. How much is in your car? Do you owe on your car? Gosh, I can't remember.

Starting point is 00:45:22 I'm really bad with money. I mean, numbers. And so I just know that I just got it two months ago. And I had to trade in my other car because it was a 2019. It was convertible. And it didn't convert anymore. And mechanically, it was sound, but everything else on it was falling. part. So I had to get rid of it and I was upside down on it because last year it was worth

Starting point is 00:45:43 $17,000 and then this year it was worth $5,000 and so I was real upside down on it. And so I owe more on the, I had to get a minivan because I'm so popular. I can't have a little convertible. So I owe more on my minivan than really I should. So. Okay. And did you roll over the negative equity on the on the convertible? Yes. Into the minivan. Okay, so how much do you owe on the minivan? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:46:17 You don't know. Antoinette, you signed a loan. You don't know how much the total is. That's right. All right, all right. And she had to go to credit karma on the other thing. So one of our problems, Antoinna, is you don't have a firm grasp of your numbers. Yeah, she already said she's bad with them, but it's not okay.

Starting point is 00:46:32 I can't remember numbers. Oh, but it's not about that. It's about, do you have a file in your house somewhere where, we got the car information? Yes, but I'm a truck driver, so my house is like 2,000 miles away. Why do you need a minivan if you're driving a truck all the time? I go home sometimes. And you're popular, so you and the ladies are hopping in the minivan.

Starting point is 00:46:57 Okay, all right, I'm trying to catch up here. Okay. Because I'm trying to figure out, honestly, if we can sell the minivan. What year's the minivan? What year? Well, I had to go for a, let's see here, a two. thousand and 23, I think.

Starting point is 00:47:14 Okay. And with the negative, I mean, this could be $30,000, $40,000. I mean, so, okay, so Antoinette, I want to paint you a picture yesterday on the show.

Starting point is 00:47:23 We had a truck driver, Christopher. He paid off all of his debt, and he has hundreds, I mean, tens of thousands of dollars, day. I mean, he's just absolutely killing it, and he's a truck driver.

Starting point is 00:47:36 He was telling us he had a Subaru brand new. ended up selling it, had to take out a small loan because it had gone down and he was upside down a little bit. About an $8,000 Lexus. The Lexus gets hit. He gets a check from the insurance company for $9,000. He ends up buying a $2,000 car, takes the rest of that and throws it at the debt, right? So there's a way to do this.

Starting point is 00:48:00 And even someone in your industry, we literally just talked to him. He did his debt free screen yesterday. Here's the thing, intimately. Okay, so the excuse that I am bad with numbers. can't be an excuse anymore. You are an adult, you are smart, you are capable, and we have to get this under control.

Starting point is 00:48:16 So the first thing I need you to do when we hang up is I need you to call the dealership or the credit, wherever you got the loan for the van, I want you to pull up the credit card again and know exactly, exactly which credit cards are out there and know exactly what you owe on them in companies.

Starting point is 00:48:34 I want you to write a list down and then take your phone and take a picture of it. So you have it documented, even if you're out and about, you have it documented. And then the plan is going to be, home ownership is going to be down the line, okay, for you. But I think the goal here is to get yourself out of debt. And Antoinette, I would, you're more than likely going to have to sell the minivan, okay? And you're going to get a beater, $2,000 car because I want you to be out of this debt so that you can start saving for retirement.

Starting point is 00:49:02 I don't want you driving, you know, have to be a truck driver for the rest of your life. I want you to be able to have a great retirement. And that's not going to be possible with the habits that you've been in, not only just financially, actually, but the way you're going about it and your attitude about it. You've got to make the turn. And it's going to be difficult and hard, but you need to get as much facts in front of you as possible, because you don't know what you don't know. Are you an independent contractor, in other words, work for yourself, or do you work for a company? I'm a company driver. I'm not kidding about having a bad memory, and I update all of my bills every other month.

Starting point is 00:49:41 I have a piece of paper that tells me I keep it on a book. I look at every one of them. I see how much interest up there charging me. I see how much my balance is. And then I tally up my total debt. I also look at credit karma a few times a week. I just have a bad memory, and had I known that you're going to be asking me this question, I would have had this stuff. You called a money show, my friend.

Starting point is 00:50:05 You know what do you mean? And so we're trying to help. We really are. And so my encouragement to you is that when there is something, a big, big, missing piece, and the car loan is that for me right now, that I need to, I need you to know what it is because I may need you to make a really quick decision to sell it because you know how much the payment is each month? Yes, the payment is $900.

Starting point is 00:50:33 $95. Okay, almost $1,000. How much money do you get paid once a month per month? What are you making? Probably about $7,500. Okay. And let me do a quick follow-up, Antoinette, because I didn't hear you. That's my fault. Did you say you're independent? And the reason I'm asking this, did you say you're an independent? No, she works for a company. Okay, do they have a 401K or some type of retirement program that you can be contributing to? Yes, but I thought, because what's the point of that? at my age. Because you have nothing. So we can run these numbers, but I mean, the baby steps as we teach them is $1,000 in savings just for basic emergencies. Baby step two is to pay off your debt, smallest to largest.

Starting point is 00:51:18 That's why Rachel leaned in there. We want to get the debt out of your life because we just learned that that could save us $900 a month. A $1,000 that could be going towards retirement. And so... Why would I want a $2,000 beater card? It's going to break down all the time. And $22,000, a beater car doesn't always break down all the time.

Starting point is 00:51:34 You can ask Christopher yesterday. He literally had a picture of his, and it runs great. And I'm talking to a person who's super popular, your own words. Have the ladies pick you up when you're not in the truck. I want to beat your car. I want to get all of my family together and take them places. I hear your heart in it. I want a Lamborghini.

Starting point is 00:51:49 I don't need to argue. I want to dunk a basketball. But some things are not going to happen because I'm 5 foot 8 and can't jump. You know, if I want to retire with dignity, I've got to start saving money and I can't save money if I'm in debt. Hey Antoin, I want you to keep listening to The Ramsey Show for real.

Starting point is 00:52:08 I want you to listen every single day for the next six months. Make that be your goal. Just as you're driving, listen to this show because I want this knowledge to soak in and this way of thinking

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Starting point is 00:54:03 The phone number is AAA-8-25-2-25-2-25-Tripple-8-25-5-2-25. Lindsay is going to join us now right here in our neck of the woods, Nashville, Tennessee. Lindsay, how can we help today? Hi, thank you for taking my question. I am writing in with a relationship money question, actually. So back in college, my parents loaned me about $18,000 to go to college. It was $15,000 in principal and $3,000 in interest to help me pay for college under the agreement that I would pay it off within three years of graduation. Fortunately, I was able to do that.

Starting point is 00:54:46 but after listening to many, many episodes of your guys' show, I feel a little bit, you know, taken advantage of. And my question is, is it worth expressing my feelings to my parents now, despite the loan being paid back, or do I just accept the lesson, don't borrow from family and try to do better with my own kids going forward? Okay. I'll start because I think I represent my colleague here. I don't know that we can answer that question without understanding why it is you think they

Starting point is 00:55:21 took advantage of you. Based on what you've laid out right now, it doesn't sound like they took advantage of you. What are we missing that makes you feel like they took advantage of you? Correct. So I knew the full amount when I signed for it. You know, they told me things like you can go get a loan from a bank. bank, but God forbid something happened while you're paying them back. You know, were your parents, we would be much more understanding of that situation should it present itself. And I guess it's

Starting point is 00:55:53 the whole charging interest thing that I guess doesn't sit right. Okay, another question. You've paid this all back, as I understand it, correct? Correct. When did you, when did the tension arise over the interest. In the middle of it, before you started paying it back, or after you got done with it? Paying the whole thing. More so after, yeah, more so after I got done with it.

Starting point is 00:56:20 How long after you got done with it? It was about a year after. What changed? What changed? So I'm digging here on purpose. Rachel, thank you for giving me a little leeway here. It's a fair question. It's a very fair question.

Starting point is 00:56:34 So let me explain it to the audience and to you one time, and then I want you to answer this. So you paid it back. You paid back the full $18,000 and about $3,000. And about $3,000.000.3 of it was interest. That's what I'm saying. So, okay. So you paid it all back. And a year after you paid it back, at some point, at some day, a year after you paid it back, this started to bother you. So that tells me something happened. What happened or dare I have? Who happened?

Starting point is 00:57:11 So I got married a year after, a little over a year after I graduated college, and my husband and I were talking about it. And he was shocked that they charged me interest and thought it was horrible that a parent would charge a child interest on a loan. And you believed him all of a sudden? Yes. Had it occurred to you before his comment? that that might be a horrible, despicable thing in someone else's eyes?

Starting point is 00:57:45 Be honest. Sure. It occurred to you. You're telling me at some point you were like, I appreciate what my parents are doing, but I think this is a little, this is a bit shady. Oh, no, no, no, no. Sorry.

Starting point is 00:57:57 I'm misunderstood your question. I know. I'm playing lawyer. I watch too many television shows. Here's my point. The husband said this and because of his understandable influence on you, and probably just, by his sheer reaction, which he's, by the way, has every right to his opinion. This totally

Starting point is 00:58:16 shifted everything. So I'm going to get out of the way and let Rachel weigh in, but I'm going to tell you my opinion now. I've gotten everything I need to know. Okay? So my opinion is it's too late and I don't think there was any tension or resentment at all until your hubs opened his mouth. He has every right to open his mouth. He has every right to opine on what your parents did. I don't like how he said it because I think he should have been wiser and more mature. And if he was on the phone, I'd tell him this. He has every right to his opinion, but he's now created some tension and resentment after the fact. And only from his point of view. And so for that reason, no, I don't think you should bring it up to your parents. And I think you need to figure out how to process

Starting point is 00:59:02 this. Maybe it's therapy. But to create tension now, to me, seems foolish. Yeah, I think I think what's hard for me, Lindsay, where it does not feel like they took advantage of you is because everything was up front. If you had called and we've had these calls of people called, they said, oh my gosh, we pulled my credit report after I got married to buy a house and I had a student loan on there. My parents took out a loan. I remember signing papers at 18, but they never told me, you know, that's deceitful. Parents that loan with strings attached that we'll give you this money maybe for a down payment on a house, but you guys have to live this close to us. We have to see the grant, you know, there's strings attached in relationships. It's kind of gross. Like this sounds like,

Starting point is 00:59:47 even though we're not for, you're exactly right, we are not for family members, loaning money, period. But the way they did it, Lindsay, it was, it sounded very clear, very upfront. And the reason they did it from what I hear is they did it from a situation that a, it's less risk with the loan being held to them. It was not a, hey, we're going to give you a deal. we're going to charge you. And now, if the $3,000 was unreasonable interest, right, if they're charging you 50% interest and they're taking advantage of you, that's gross and weird.

Starting point is 01:00:19 But did they do that? If they pulled the average interest rate and they just said, hey, and just do the loan with us. Because if something happens, their words, we can give you grace period. Like, it won't hurt you financially. That's a very good point. You know, that's the reason they did it. It wasn't a mathematical.

Starting point is 01:00:34 You're going to get a deal from us. We're going to give you this half off. So, Lindsay, I don't think they took advantage of you. I think you knew exactly what you were signing up for. And I think that the reason they did it was so that a bank wasn't involved, but it wasn't a financial deal on their end. It was just a, hey, here's this. Did they charge you the going rate on interest?

Starting point is 01:00:51 I mean, Rachel brings us a very good point here. Well, no. So it would have been about, what is that? 20%, maybe. It was $1,000 for every $5,000 that I borrowed from them. Okay. All right. Yeah, so that's a little bit, that's a little high.

Starting point is 01:01:09 Is your, are your parents super tight? Yes, very. Okay. So I actually, I'm glad you brought this up, Rachel. Sorry, I know I was diving in a little bit, not try truly interrupting because I don't like that. Go, Ken. Go. Okay.

Starting point is 01:01:24 Well, I personally wouldn't charge my kid interest. And then again, we don't loan our kids money. Right. Nor am I going to. Right. But I'm trying to put myself in this. Sure. Sure.

Starting point is 01:01:34 So remember the little classic? We tell you what we would do. Okay, we wouldn't do it, but if I'm sticking myself, I think it's a little tight. I think it's a little tight. Yeah, sure. But they didn't do anything. But take advantage as a really strong language. I don't like that language.

Starting point is 01:01:47 That feels like it was deceitful or something. I don't think they did. I am going to say, though, Lindsay, so I have another follow-up question. I can't wait for Rachel to get involved in this potentially. So the timeline for all of our viewers and listeners here, quick review, it was a year after you paid it off that hubs and you have the conversation, he gets upset and it affects year. How much time between that first moment where he makes the comment and this phone call today? How much time has passed? Years. We've been married for almost three years. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 01:02:16 That really concerns me. I was very intrigued by this. So here we are. Are you saying three years ago is when he first got alarmed and you started questioning this deal? Three years ago. Yes. So you've been sitting on this part three years? And the loan's been paid off for three years as well? Four. Loans been paid off for four. I got you. I got you. I got. I got. I'm sorry, I'm sewing the timeline here. So the question is, Rachel, doesn't that concern you? I'm very concerned.

Starting point is 01:02:41 Concerned, what do you mean that she's just resenting? This resentment is just boiling it up. And she's calling us, and I'm glad you called us. Yeah. Lindsey, I would really. Stop talking about it. I would. Get over it.

Starting point is 01:02:50 I would. I would. I think that, yes, they're probably cheap to a degree. Probably. Yeah, they're cheap. They're a big time cheap. But they didn't do anything deceitful. You knew exactly what you were signing up for.

Starting point is 01:03:02 And so I think it's one of those things that, again, And thankfully you have the money to pay them back and all of it. But the deal is like this is another reason, right, why we don't loan money. So I'm glad you've been watching the show, Lindsay, because you're exactly right. This is, I would do this because it does feel weird. And it's not only does it feel weird because you owe your parents money when we talk about that. But it's also weird in this situation when you look back and you're like, oh, gross. I don't like how that felt.

Starting point is 01:03:25 So like all of that is standard and justify. This is the Ramsey show. The last thing you need this holiday season is more stuff collect. dust or tech that keeps you glued to screens and up too late. You need better sleep. And that's what you'll get with Casper. Their mattresses are made for deep uninterrupted rest that keep you cool and comfortable. So you wake up feeling ready, not wrecked. Because rest is not a luxury, it's an investment. And the ROI is your well-being. So go to casper.com slash Ramsey and use promo code Ramsey for 25% off mattresses and 10% off everything else. You get free shipping too. That's

Starting point is 01:04:13 Casper.com slash Ramsey promo code Ramsey. Exclusions apply. All right, let's go to Jessica now, who joins us in Columbia, South Carolina. Jessica, how can we help? Yes. So my quick question is I was a victim of identity theft. I found out at 18 my mom had been using my Social Security number since I was two years ago. Found out at 18 when I went to go get a car, and they wouldn't even touch me with a

Starting point is 01:04:56 co-center with an 800 credit score. no money down found out I had $186,000 in credit card debt just a loan Wait, wait, say that again, Jessica, $100 and what? $186,000 in credit card debt. That your mom racked up? Yes.

Starting point is 01:05:13 Oh, Jessica. How long ago was this? Oh, my word. I mean, all the way back to 2005, the most recent one was in 2021, which was right before I was 18. And I got it with an attorney, and we got my credit wiped, but what it left me with was zero credit history and horrible credit score.

Starting point is 01:05:33 Not even a six-year credit card will touch me now. I have a significant other. We're not married, but we have gone to plenty of financial advisors, and we have been told both that our best option is to get married, because, again, I can't get even a credit card in my name. I'm an authorized user on only one card, and I can't be an authorized user on a lot of other credit cards. Jessica, slow out. No, you're not, actually. This is going to be a great call for you because you're not stuck. But quick question here. And Rachel's going to give you some amazing guidance here, I promise you. But why are financial advisors telling you that the best thing to do is to get married? Because that feels like a financial reason, not a good reason to get married. So I want to dig into that first. What are we trying to accomplish? Yes, they always say sign if I can. And I don't have a car.

Starting point is 01:06:25 in my name. I can't get a car of my own. We share my partner's car. We moved up here to South Carolina from southwest Florida away from my grandmother and to live up here near my father. And I work from home, which isn't a big deal. But our biggest issue right now is we have one car. Okay. All right. Slow down. Slow down. So you're not you're not stuck. This is the theme of this call. All right. I'm just going to ask a quick question here. Rachel, I'll get out of your way. No, you're good. I want to ask a question here. Yes.

Starting point is 01:06:56 What do you do for a living and how much do you make? And I have a quick follow-up. So give me the real quick stats. What do you do and how much do you make? I'm currently a debt collector for Advance America. And I'm currently making about after commission, 18 to 19 an hour, 40 hours a week. All right. So if you could save up money for, let's say you could save up $10,000, I don't care how long it takes you,

Starting point is 01:07:20 could you buy a car without a credit card? Could you buy a car with $10,000 cash? Yes or no? Yeah, most definitely. I mean, there's plenty of good vehicles for that price. So I'm challenging some of your thinking here. Rachel's going to guide you here, but I want to challenge this idea that you're stuck

Starting point is 01:07:38 because you have no credit score and that you have to get married in order to have a car. You have a job, and you can go buy a $5,000 car, a $7,500 car. I just want to make sure you catch that. Definitely, most definitely. All right. I want to get out of the way, Rachel, because I know you got some questions, but my goodness.

Starting point is 01:07:57 I mean, the paradigm shift that you have to have, Jessica, is a pretty big one because everything you've been talking about so far on this call has to do with how do I live my life around having a great credit score. And actually, you call the Ramsey show and we're the opposite. We actually don't care about the credit score because primarily you use a credit score to go into more debt. And you're finding that out. When you're trying to go get a car loan, they won't give it to you because you have a bad credit score. You try to go deeper in the debt with a credit card. They won't give you a credit card because of that. So living debt-free, this is actually a gift, Jessica.

Starting point is 01:08:29 You don't even have the option. Most people listening right now could go apply for a credit card. You don't have the option. So see that as a blessing because I don't want an option for you, even if you had a great credit score. So how do we live life debt-free? Well, number one, starting out your biggest need is what you're saying is a car. I almost think your biggest need is maybe a new job. As a debt collector, that can't be a very fun job.

Starting point is 01:08:50 So I wouldn't, Ken to even talk about that. Yeah, you're limited there. I think you can do some really great work, Jessica, and I think you can work overtime. Do you have kids? Yes. I do not. Okay.

Starting point is 01:09:00 So Jessica, I would make a priority right now to say here, making a very detailed budget, I mean, exactly what you're, what you need in life for food, shelter, utilities, transportation. And that's about it. Like, I mean, we're just going on the basics here. Everything else is going to go to say, up for a car and maybe $5,000 is your goal, whatever it may be. Because you don't, do you have,

Starting point is 01:09:23 do you have any consumer debt in your name? No. No, it's all, okay, and you're fighting this whole $186,000, right? Well, we, we successfully sued the credit, you did, okay, beautiful. How much do you have in savings? Okay, yes. Do you have any savings? Currently, no, we just use our savings to move and, you know, get out of selfless Florida because the jobs there weren't any good. And we're currently trying, I'm trying to get back into college. I have one semester left to get my associates. But again, my mother messing with my identity has affected my tax forms to getting grants and loans. So that's another one we're working on.

Starting point is 01:10:01 Listen, listen, Jessica, you don't need a loan to get one more semester paid for. And I think your remaining semester of your associate's degree is secondary to what Rachel is saying, which is let's get some money saved, let's get on a budget, and let's buy a car. Because Jessica, we have people call this show all the time, and they're trying to get out of debt. And so when we talk about getting out of debt, for instance, we say you cut everything

Starting point is 01:10:23 and you work extra. And we have people very normal, I mean, in a very normal rhythm on this show that are making an extra $1,200 above their income on side hustles. So let's just make it a goal for you, and especially since you don't have kids, be like, hey, evenings,

Starting point is 01:10:41 I'm working, like whether you're waiting tables. I mean, you are doing something. And let's just go crazy. And let's say you earn an extra, let's go two grand a month. I know that sounds crazy, Jessica, but seriously, like what if you worked your butt off, earned an extra 2,000?

Starting point is 01:10:55 That means sitting right now, where we are in the calendar, by July, August, you could have a car, by, depending on how much that one semester costs you, between now and December, after you have a car, another couple of months of working extra, you could have saved, you know, $6, $8,000 for your tuition.

Starting point is 01:11:17 So that's like, that's literally between now and the end of the calendar year, Jessica. So like it is possible. You just have to make some really big goals and you have to, not that you're playing victim to this by any means, but don't be leaning on the credit industry to get you out. Jessica, you can get you out. We're fed our whole lives that credit is what matters. I mean, again, we moved up here with the intent.

Starting point is 01:11:40 to buy a home and we found out quickly that I couldn't be on it. I guess that's really what dedicated to most. And you don't need to buy a home with someone you're not married to either, Jessica. Or get married or get married at the advice of a financial advisor so you can get a car. All right. Now, listen, listen to this. I just found, this is in the Columbia, South Carolina area, okay? I just found a 2009 Toyota Camry, 182,000 miles, which on a Camry might as well be a new car. Okay, that car can go for $4.82. Oh, I know. All right. Listen to this. $3,700 they want for this car. You walk up there with $3,200 and $100 bills and say, guys, this is what I'm going to pay you for this car. They'll give it to you so fast, your head will spend. No credit. Do you hear me? yes I do I've had plenty of I mean my first car was in 05 civic I mean I don't have any so I want to know for you because we've thrown out a couple of things whether it's cars or

Starting point is 01:12:39 college or not buying a house with someone you're not married to and you're a rebuttal to us this whole call has been oh I know oh I know but why why are you then still dabbling in this idea like I can't get a credit card I can't get a car loan I can't get a student loan because you're saying you know but you're still giving it an option why no I think it's just more Again, I mean, we, I mean, my whole family is, I mean, obviously they're not, you know, they got their own troubles. But the whole thing is, you know, to have great credit and to not have this naked stuff dragging behind you. And even though I got my credit history wiped, you know, everything nowadays, they want to pull some type of credit. Even buy your pay.

Starting point is 01:13:17 No, they don't. If you pay cash. Buy now, pay later is horrible, Jessica. Like, that's what I'm saying. You're not hearing. You don't need to worry about those stuff. You don't know. I know.

Starting point is 01:13:25 No, you stop saying you know. It's more so the. the availability but you only need it Jessica you really only need it to go into debt and that's what we're telling you is pay cash just pay cash for everything and you don't have to worry about it and if some cell phone company

Starting point is 01:13:40 pulls up your credit report you can just show them to the police report and be fine like you you can get away with other things but you have to be convicted about this Jessica you're going to keep getting pulled I feel like you're getting pulled into it even though you're saying I know so you need to stand firm pay cash for anything it is possible

Starting point is 01:13:55 Jessica you can do this and keep things separate from the boyfriend right now and live your life, get yourself a car, save up for the semester, get your college degree, and right off into the sunset, and then maybe get married because you love him, not because of his credit score. She's been hypnotized. Stop staring at the sun. Hey guys, it's open enrollment time for health insurance. And if you have ever felt overwhelmed, trying to figure out your health care costs, you are not alone. For a lot of families, health care is one of the biggest line items in the budget. it and it gets more confusing every year. But you don't have to settle. Christian Healthcare Ministries

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Starting point is 01:15:22 But CHM lets you join anytime. So go to chmistries.org slash budget to check them out. That's CHMinstries. dot org slash budget. Rachel, the all new every dollar is here. And folks, it is truly way more than just our world-class budgeting app. I've been talking about this on the show.

Starting point is 01:15:52 I got a meeting with the team and I said, show me all the, just take me in the thing. Give me a tour. And it's amazing. It's literally like a digital version of us on the show for those who call in. The first 15 minutes of answering the questions that the team provides you in this app, they're going to help you find thousands of dollars immediately in savings. We're seeing this in an average of people who use it. You can start every dollar for free by going the app store or Google Play.

Starting point is 01:16:22 Tons of advanced features, it's not just budgeting. Now, that's amazing. But the fact that you've got a digital coach, mentor, accountability partner, whatever you want to call it, all those facets are in there. Fantastic. So you've got to go check it out and give it a world. It's free. And I'm going to tell you, you're going to love it.

Starting point is 01:16:38 Donna is up next in West Virginia. Donna, how can we help? Hi, Ken and Rachel. I love all the personalities, but Ken, I'm really glad you're there today. I love the way you spend a tale. You really make me chuckle. And I love your story from a few weeks ago about the welfare chicken. I grew up on a farm and can relate to that.

Starting point is 01:16:59 Thank you. Yes. What a fan. The welfare chicken. I hope you didn't get in trouble for telling them to sell the chicken. I think I was on there with you during that. get in trouble, and I had forgotten about that, Donna, so thank you. That's really fun. Thank you. Your sweet lady. By the way, I have to ask, where in West Virginia are you?

Starting point is 01:17:17 Oh, geez, Romney. Do you know that town? I think I've heard of it. Do you know Point Pleasant by any chance? That's way far away. We're in the panhandle between Winchester, Virginia and Cumberland, Maryland. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. I was born in that little teeny town of Point Pleasant West Virginia. Five thousand people. I've been there. Well, I'm going to tell you, not many people have. Yeah, that's right. It's across the state. All right, Donna.

Starting point is 01:17:42 My sister from another mister here in West Virginia, how can we help today? Well, I'm 69, and my husband is almost 71, and we started our careers in the 70s, and at that time, people were saying, oh, you're so lucky, you have a pension, you'll have Social Security, you don't have to worry about retirement. So we didn't. And we don't fine now with our pension and our socialization. security, but we haven't saved a lot of money. And we had to put my mother in a nursing home last year, an extended care nursing home, and it really scared me and shocked me at the cost per month for that stay. And what my question is today, and I've been having friends tell me, you know, you need to sign your house over to your kids to save it from being taken and

Starting point is 01:18:32 and all of this. And I know Dave says that you shouldn't do that. I haven't heard him talk a lot about that, but I have heard him say that. And I was just wondering what the pros and cons are to that. And if there's no pros, what can we do? Or is there something we can do to save our house? Well, let's go back a step. What are we afraid that's going to happen that would even allow allow us to consider that advice. What are you afraid it's going to happen? Oh, for the signing your house over? Yeah. Oh, well, there's, I guess, a lot of things. I mean, I've been listening to the store, I shoot, show long enough that I know if you have kids, if anything happens to your kids,

Starting point is 01:19:21 then that can, if they're in an accident or anything like that. Yeah, but you're talking about your house. I'm talking about my house, yes. My house that my husband and I own. Sure. And you're worried you're going to lose it to who or why? Oh, Medicare. I mean, if you can't pay, if you go into a nursing home. Oh, Medicaid is going to look at.

Starting point is 01:19:45 They're going to be looking at your, okay. Now we're caught up. Sorry. We weren't 100% sure. Yeah. And the reason we say that is because a little bit, it feels like you're hiding assets when you just sign it over. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:19:56 And that's what I wonder. I mean, I don't. I know. So, yeah, not a great, not a great thing. because you're basically lying to the government that you don't have an asset when you really do. So, okay, do you have long-term care insurance, Donna? We do, but I got it. It's been probably before I realized the cost, my father-in-law went into just an assistant living,

Starting point is 01:20:16 and his was about $3,500, $4,000 a month. So when we got our long-term care, it was very expensive anyway because I have some health issues, so it was high. Sure. And ours is only $3,000 a month. Okay. my mom's came up and it was 14,500 a month and I'm like, I was just in shock that it was that expensive. Well, okay, so a couple of things to think about that we don't know yet because how old are you guys?

Starting point is 01:20:43 I'm 69. My husband's 71. So a lot of different things. Number one, you don't know if you guys are going to need a nursing home anyways. Number two, if you did get to a point of a nursing home, you know, there are things you can do. can sell the house and use that to fund if you need to. There's also, what are you guys doing with your pension and all of that? What do you have coming in? Per month, you mean what we have? We have, it's like $9,942.

Starting point is 01:21:17 Okay. So, I mean, it's decent. And we did just start two years ago. We have started putting some away. We both bought. I bought us and my husband a spouse. still working a little bit. Okay. And I made enough money to be able to max out both a Roth for me and a spousal Roth for my husband. I did that when we got, we got one of your pros. Good. Great.

Starting point is 01:21:43 And he said to get one. We got him in April and he said, oh, hurry up and get a Roth before April 15th. For the taxes. Yeah, that's right. So we did that. And then when we finally sat down with him, we had enough money saved to do another one for 2025. So what do you have total? What do you guys have total? We have 32,000 in Ross right now. And then we were playing around just during the years, and we have about 50 that our financial advisor is rolling over, about 50,000, that he's rolling over into IRAs now that we're still in with the companies that we retired. Okay.

Starting point is 01:22:26 So just below 100,000. then what is your house worth? About $400,000. Okay. Yeah, so it would be one of these things. If you guys did get into that situation, whether it's the insurance, some savings, you know, whatever you can put together to get into a nursing home. And I'll be honest on it, this sounds horrible, but there is a stat that once you enter

Starting point is 01:22:50 into a nursing home, on average, there's not that long of a stay usually. sometimes it is sometimes it's not either so it is kind of one of the last steps that family members will take if they're not able to care for you know their family member and and so that would be kind of that that last step if you will so if i was in your shoes i may ask about upping the long-term care i'm just curious what other options are out there for you guys um i would be looking at that because that's going to be very helpful type of insurance for you all if the time comes that you need in-house care nursing home, all of it. And you guys also are sitting on a great asset. And you know what I mean? If something were to happen to either you or your husband and you did get to a point that you guys didn't have the money to cash flow it and yet there was a nursing home that you knew they needed to be in, you know, him or yourself, there's always the possibility of selling the house, you know,

Starting point is 01:23:46 and figuring out what to do there. So, Don, I'm going to give you something. Rachel made a great point. I looked it up. The average length of stay in a nursing home is 485 days. Now, of course, this varies, but averages do play out. So you're looking at about, you know, a year, three, four months. So, you know, it's horrible. But that's the reality. And we're talking about that. So, you know, between the pension and everything, I mean, Rachel, you make a very good point.

Starting point is 01:24:12 It's not like you've got to fund this crazy amount for five years. Yeah. So I think you guys are doing everything you can. How much longer do you think you're going to work? As long as I can. love it. Okay. Do you work full-time? No, no. I do occasionally. I'm a teacher, and sometimes I'll take a long-term sub job, and sometimes right now I'm just doing day-to-day, and I've... I'll bet the kids love when Donna shows up to be the sub. You seem like a really nice sub. I hope so. I hope

Starting point is 01:24:47 they do. They always say they do, but you know. Well, that's good, and what about your husband? Is he officially done working or still working? Yes. No, he's officially done. He's a golfer. He's You fall into the golf. I love it. Good for him. Well, at least there's a little bit of a foreshadowing of watching your mom and how expensive it has been for your mom or your dad that you guys can start planning. But if that time we come, how would be able to cash flow that?

Starting point is 01:25:11 So thanks for the call, Donna. Do we know if people can search welfare chickens on Spotify or YouTube and find that rant? Do we know? I don't know. I'm sure. You can try. Well, they can't. Oh, you all missed it.

Starting point is 01:25:23 It was really great. Donna said so. Welcome back to the Ramsey show in the Fair Winds Credit Union Studio alongside Rachel Cruz. I'm Ken Coleman. Thanks for being with us. We're here for you. AAA 825-225 is the phone number. Let's go to Caitlin, who joins us in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Starting point is 01:25:58 Caitlin, how can we help? Hi, good afternoon. I'm a recent college graduate from West Virginia University, and I will start paying student loan debt come January. and I want to know what is the best and effective way to go about that. How much student loans do you have? They will be around $26,000. And is it multiple loans? Yes.

Starting point is 01:26:27 Okay, so what's the smallest amount? The smallest amount, I believe, is about $5,000. Okay. All right, so is that the only debt you have? Yes, that's the only debt I have. All right. Rachel Walker through the baby steps. Are you working?

Starting point is 01:26:46 Yes, ma'am. I work a full-time job. Great. How much do you make a month? How much do you bring in? About a month, maybe $15,800 a month. A month. Okay.

Starting point is 01:27:00 What are you doing? I work at a boutique. A boutique. What kind of boutique? A women's boutique, just a locally owned. Like a spa? No, like a clothing store. No, it's clothing.

Starting point is 01:27:16 Oh. Sorry, a little slow on that. Didn't know what I did. Well, there's lots of different boutiques. There's like boutique hotels. Fair. Boutique spas. Sorry.

Starting point is 01:27:26 Fair. None of this matters. Why do you, I have a question on your income. Yeah. That's not a lot. For a college grad, that is way below what your expectations were, I'm guessing. Yes or no? Yes.

Starting point is 01:27:38 So I've had this job for about two years. I worked this job throughout college, and that is the job I'm still currently at. Okay, what did you get your degree in? Business and marketing. So what do you want to do? And I'm not going to put you under pressure here on a show live, but give me a general idea. It doesn't have to be a company and a title, but describe the work that you went to school for that you would love to have if I could just wave my pencil in the air and give it to you. Well, the work I would be interested in is going into law school. Okay. So we went for business and market.

Starting point is 01:28:15 and we're like, this is not what I want to do, but I'm just going to finish it. And then somewhere along the way we discovered, I want to be a lawyer and a specific type of lawyer? Corporate law, sir. Corporate law. Okay, so a tie-in to the business and marketing? Yes. Okay, what's law school going to cost you? Law school is probably going to cost me around probably $100,000.

Starting point is 01:28:41 And where are you going? I have not yet made my decision, but I'll be taking the LFSA. Okay, great. I want to make a quick commercial and I'll hand it to Rachel and but you got to get your, two things. Number one, you need to get your income up. Right. You should be making, you should be making double. I don't even care what you're doing. Yeah. At this point, you need a target of $40,000 to $50,000. Let's just put it out there. I don't limit you to that, but you just need to get out there and find something because more cash, the better. Now, and Rachel will tell you what to do with that cash. But I just want to make a point on the

Starting point is 01:29:13 L-Sat. Years ago, I interviewed a law school expert on this and this is a fact, by the way, there are certain schools you're going to have to do your homework on this but you can figure it out easily that based on your LSAT score rachel if you get a high enough LSAT score they will give you a full ride and the reason is these aren't the prolific ones let me just go ahead and tell you this isn't Harvard yeah it's not the big time schools these are the schools who nobody wants to go to their law school so therefore they're trying to get people into their law school because they want lawyers out there and they will give full ride so these are going to be smaller schools schools, not as well known, but they have

Starting point is 01:29:50 legit law schools. And let me just make my pitch on this. Nobody cares where you got your law degree from. And so the tradeoff is, Caitlin, you have to pay for the LSAT. And if you need to take the LSAT five times, take it. If we're aiming for,

Starting point is 01:30:06 and we feel like the tutors will tell you, we can get you to the score, which gets you a free ride. So that's my commercial. Yeah, it's worth investing, you know, five, six grand or, like, like, Honestly, when you think about it, with tutors and everything. And I don't know what the current LSAC cost is.

Starting point is 01:30:23 To get a $100,000 degree for free. So that's what you need more money for. Yes. Plus we got to pay off these loans. So Rachel, tell her how we pay off these loans. And that needs to be your way to law school, Caitlin. I really want you to see that because you're going to be $126,000 in debt if you don't. So we want to really work hard to avoid all those student loans.

Starting point is 01:30:45 Yeah. So it's getting your income up, Caitlin. And so, I mean, I really hate to say it, but I mean, I would probably be looking for another job. I think it was a great thing to get you through college. But now that you're a college grad, you know, you made that investment for a reason. And so now we need to go ROI it. And we need to go, you know, get a job, like Ken said, making $40, $50,000 a year. And I would limit all my expenses.

Starting point is 01:31:07 I would live on nothing. And I would make it a goal to get this paid off in 18 months, 16 months, 14 months, you know. And so, I really think you can. And if you, do you have rent? Are you living at home? What's your living status? I live at home. Okay.

Starting point is 01:31:23 Okay. So no rent. So I would take full advantage and make a really, really aggressive goal of getting this paid off. And then at the same time, be looking at the LSAT stuff and make that also a part-time job. So I don't know if it's a, I don't know right now if it's a full-time job that you go and find, you know, a receptionist. I mean, anything. Like just go and answer phones. I mean, do something. or if you do the boutique during the day and you wait tables at night and you're doing a two day, you know, two job a day kind of thing to double this income.

Starting point is 01:31:55 But this income needs to be doubled, Caitlin. You're a college grad. And I think that you have you have things to offer. And again, it's kind of back to this college degree conversation that you got your degree for a reason to go and create a career. And so taking that knowledge and going and doing that and upping this income is going to be your number one. Because Caitlin, here's the deal. You are young enough and this debt is small enough that you can pay this off in a year. But you've got to make more income where you're putting $2,000 a month away.

Starting point is 01:32:26 So like Rachel said, what must be true for me to be able to sock $2,500 a month away at the $26,000 loan? Knock that out. And get it out of the way before the interest starts hurting you. Okay? Because I know people that have your amount of loan debt and they're paying. it for 15, 20 years because they're never catching up because of the interest payment. So you want to get this out of your life. And I just, I'm telling you, if you trust me and you do your research, you can go to law school for free or for a very reduced amount that you can cash flow. And

Starting point is 01:33:01 most people don't know that. And please do that because you're going to just be so much more at peace. So there's your homework assignment. Pretty straightforward, but you got to hustle. Yep. So thanks for the call. You know, Rachel, that is, I love when we get that call and I'll be honest I've not interviewed people in other lanes but I I would almost bet you there's other professional lanes like that that where certain schools are going you know like med schools are going we want to get people in here and the sticker price on a Vanderbilt which is in the shadow of our campus here yeah versus a small school totally yes and it's an it's an ego play to go to it is someone's like hey where are you going to law school and it's a yeah Harvard law

Starting point is 01:33:45 That maybe, yeah, or you're going to one that no one's ever heard of. And you've got to have some humility to it. Yeah. But you're doing it in a wise way. You know what I mean? And so there's something so smart about it. Your clients aren't going to go, hey, I've heard rumors that you got your law degree from Greenbrier State. I mean, you think about vet school, law school, med school, I bet George Camel, when he took his dogs into the vet, he didn't say, let me see your degree before.

Starting point is 01:34:07 He said, save my dogs. That was all last week. That poor guy. That poor guy and his dogs. It's like a soap pop around here, folks. We don't have time to cover it. We'll have him cover it, George, if he hosts here in the next week. Hey, do you ever feel like you're doing everything right with money but still stuck?

Starting point is 01:34:34 I was you. In debt, running hard but taking three steps forward and two steps back. Turns out, it's not the numbers. It's the fact that changing our ways with money is emotional. That's why I wrote my brand new book, what no one tells you about money, to help you push past what's really been sabotaging your progress so you can finally win.

Starting point is 01:34:52 You can pre-order now and score over $100 and free bonus items. But only if you order by January 5th, go to ramsysolutions.com slash store today. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman and Rachel Cruz joins me.

Starting point is 01:35:20 And we are here for you. The phone number to jump in is AAA 8255-225. We want to help you win in your relationships, in your work, and in your money. And speaking of winning with your money, you know, a lot of people right now, Rachel, are watching. What is the Fed?

Starting point is 01:35:35 going to do. We've seen the interest rates on mortgages come down a little bit off of a several year high. And everybody's going, do I buy? Do I sell right now? What do I do? And we've got some great advice for them. Yeah. And even in the this showed kin, I feel like we've had a lot of home questions even about like, hey, what's my next step? Well, the goal is to make your home and homeownership a blessing, not a burden. And so if you are in a place where you're like, okay, I'm thinking about selling. I'm thinking about buying. Maybe I'm a first-time home buyer.

Starting point is 01:36:06 You know, having that 5% down payment is crucial. A 15-year fixed-rate mortgage is what we recommend. And for your payments, we know more than 25% of your take-home pay. It's kind of always been our formula for decades, regardless of what the housing market is doing. That just keeps your household budget in a good spot. But finding a house and specifically finding an agent that you trust who's really incredible and of high caliber in this area is really important.

Starting point is 01:36:31 So the Ramsey Trusted program really is really zing. the only way to find an agent that you can trust to keep you on track with what we teach here at Ramsey. And they're going to get the best offer on your house or is going to help you find the right house. We send you to some of the top agents in your area who we trust and you get to review their stats. You get to interview them and decide which one you want to work for because we have multiple and different markets across the country. Ramsey trusted agents have years of experience and will help you make wise decisions when it comes to pricing, the marketing, or in choosing the right offer as well, if you're getting multiple offers.

Starting point is 01:37:03 So to find a Ramsey trusted real estate agent for free, go to ramsysolutions.com slash agent. And again, use this resource, you guys, because this is home buying. For majority of people, it's the largest investment you make in your personal finance, your personal finances. So do it well and do it right with an agent that we trust

Starting point is 01:37:21 so that you can trust as well. So ramsysolutions.com slash agents. Yeah, good stuff. All right, let's get back to the phones. Kansas City is where we're going to go. And Jerry's there. Jerry, how can we help? Yes.

Starting point is 01:37:32 My question relates to the national public data breach. And what sort of steps should I be taking to kind of make sure my Social Security isn't used to open a line of credit with that? Or what kind of things I expect to do? Yeah. I mean, there's a couple things, Jerry. You know, number one, you can just freeze your credit. If you're not currently in debt or using debts, you can do that. That's a line of protection.

Starting point is 01:37:59 But having identity theft insurance is really, really, really key. It's really inexpensive. And so I would recommend going to zander.com. Zander's who we use. They actually, that's one of the benefits here at Ramsey Solutions is every team member gets identity theft as part of working here. That's how much we believe in it. Because stuff like this is going to happen more and more.

Starting point is 01:38:18 So, yeah, honestly, I would go to, yeah, zander.com and check out their identity theft protection. And I would get a policy on you. I'd get a policy of every person in your household, honestly, too, because even kids were seeing identity theft, you know, happening within kids as well and people running up stuff on their credit and I mean, it's just, it is wild.

Starting point is 01:38:37 So I would do that. There's a number here on our screen that you can call as well, Jerry. It's 800-356-4-2-8-2. 356-4-2-8-2. And yeah, that's what I would do personally, Jerry. And then, I mean, that's as much offense as I know to do, Ken, on this.

Starting point is 01:38:58 Unless something does happen, then you do have to take action. but if you have identity theft protection, they go in and do a lot for you. So just to kind of catch people up who may not know the story here, and Jerry, I'm glad you bring this up. Just kind of let people know, because you need to know, it is widely reported that hackers may have stolen the social security numbers of every American. That's me, Rachel. That's all of you. And so there is a notorious hacking group that has claimed to have stolen a ton of information. And so this is being reported across a lot of news networks and you can find this story.

Starting point is 01:39:35 It happened, what, two weeks ago? Yeah, just last week, actually. Or last week, okay. Yeah, so that's what you can do. This is how you kind of check. So do that freeze. Just exactly what Rachel said until you can check everything and then go get protected with Xander. Zander Insurance, Zander.com, 800, 356, 4286, 4286, 4282 Xander.com.

Starting point is 01:39:58 and they do a great job. We get an email every month tells us we're good or what might be something we need to check into. And that protection is... And there's other services like delete me and other places too that are incredible for online scammers as well. So identity theft protection. Again, you guys, it protects your identity,

Starting point is 01:40:16 Social Security, all that. But then you think about how much our information, not necessarily social security number, but just your address, your phone number. I mean, all this. I'm getting blown up political, all the political stuff. And I'm like, where did my number get sold to? Like, what list is, you know, is this too?

Starting point is 01:40:30 So there's full on companies that help people get their information off, but it's going to be, I mean, that's part of the curse of 2024 and technology. Because, I mean, I don't know about you can, but I do. I plug in my information on stuff. So whether it's, you know, you're shipping something, you know, or buying something, whatever it is. It's just your, I mean, it feels like I'm putting in my information a lot on websites. And by the way, and just in the overabundance of giving you all information, the three credit bureaus that Rachel's talking about, Again, Experian, Equifax and TransUnion, it's a free deal, call them or do it online. You can put a freeze on your credit.

Starting point is 01:41:07 And that will... And pull your report once a year, you guys, regardless of whether it's a data breach or not. Make sure you pull your... And you can do that for free once a year. So use each of those companies and, yeah, get three reports three times a year. All right. Let's go to John now in Los Angeles. John, how can we help?

Starting point is 01:41:26 Hey, you there. How's it going, guys? Good. How are you? Pretty good. How can we help? So, yeah, so I've been in college pretty much all my life. I'm about 33.

Starting point is 01:41:38 We'll be graduating with a PhD next year. My wife just graduated, so she started working. So it's the first time we really have a real income and a shovel. So we have $100,000 in debt, no retirement savings. And we kind of want to look into buying a house. next year when I graduate. No. So we're not really sure.

Starting point is 01:42:01 No, John, no. No, John, we're interrupting because you're not catching. No, no, no, no. Okay, John, what are y'all going to be making? Household income together combined? So right now, today combined, we make $170. Okay. When I start working, it should be $2.30.

Starting point is 01:42:20 Great. When I finished my postdoc, because I still need a little bit more, it should be about $2.80 in about three years. Three years. Okay. But in the next four months, six months, what will it be? Still 170 while I'm finishing out my PhD. And when will it bump up to 230?

Starting point is 01:42:38 How long? When I find a job probably next summer. So probably... A year. 12 months. Okay. Next year. Is the debt all student loans?

Starting point is 01:42:49 It's 60,000 in student loans, 40,000 in car loans. Oh. Okay. What's the car breakdown? What do you own each car? It is 17 and 23,000. Okay. Both pay off in about four years.

Starting point is 01:43:06 Yeah. Okay. How are you guys, you guys currently are making 170 though, right? Is what you said. Yeah, so take home is $10,000 a month. Okay. And basic necessities is between 3,000 and 4,000.

Starting point is 01:43:21 Okay. So there's a lot of room there to tackle it. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah. No, you guys have a great income, which I'm so thankful for, and it will continue to go up.

Starting point is 01:43:28 Yeah, I think my goal, John, for you guys, if I was you between now and next summer, is I would be working on these car loans, and you may rent some numbers and see, what could you sell the $17 for, the $17,000 one? They would both break even. So I was just looking at it. Okay.

Starting point is 01:43:47 And we owe pretty much exactly what can trade in. Okay, okay. You know, I mean, to jumpstart this, I mean, you're not overly heavy in cars by any means. from our, you know, math when it comes to when we look at car debt versus income. But I would make it a goal, yeah, John, to be cash flowing the rest of your school. I would make it a goal to start paying off that smallest debt. So even if it's a small student loan, more before the car, you know, just start working that

Starting point is 01:44:17 debt snowball, working the smallest debt to the largest debt, and then be saving an emergency fund, and then I would save for a down payment on a home. But I'm really encouraged, though, because your numbers, you guys can make some significant progress really fast if you stay focused and you guys have a plan. So tonight lay out a timeline between now and the next three years and have some data points to say, yep, we want the car paid off here. We want this student loan paid off here. And you kind of map it out to know that you guys will get to saving to a down payment ASAP,

Starting point is 01:44:47 which is where I want you guys. Thanks for the call. Thanks for the call, John. We'll be back. This is The Ransy Show. Listen up, guys, because I've got a big question for you. Where will you be with your money at the end of 2026? Will you be better off?

Starting point is 01:45:10 Worse? Or exactly the same? Believe it or not, you get to choose. Look, I know there's a lot going on that can make you feel powerless over your money, but I want you to hear me. You're more in control than you think. You can turn your finances around. So let me help you out.

Starting point is 01:45:27 Start your year off with me and Dave Ramsey at our free every dollar live stream event on January 8th. We're cutting through all the lies and all the money. the chaos out there that's keeping you stuck. So you have the clarity you need to finally get ahead. And you could even win $2,000 just for signing up. Listen, another year is going to pass anyway. So decide that this is the year you're going to take that control of your life and your money. Go sign up for the free live stream at every dollar.com slash live stream. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. Rachel Cruz joins me. I'm Ken Coleman and you are listening and watching The Ramsey Show. So excited that you are with us, Triple.

Starting point is 01:46:15 8255-225 is the number. Stephanie is joining us now in Los Angeles. Stephanie, how can we help? Hi. Happy birthday, Rachel. Yay. Oh, thanks, Stephanie. I appreciate that.

Starting point is 01:46:29 You're welcome. Okay, so I am a single mother of two girls. I've been a single mom for a long time now, and I own a business. I'm a professional organizer, and I actually like coach families on how to like keep their lives together. Well, I just am really struggling financially. I ended up having to get a full-time job.

Starting point is 01:46:56 I, long story short, my savings just got drained when I put employees on payroll out here in California. It's super expensive. And anyway, so I just, I don't know the first thing about, like, good budgeting. I did not grow up. My parents, like, saw bankruptcy three times. and I'm just trying to set up a future for my children, and I just want to get out of debt. So I need some advice, and I want to sell my car, and, yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:25 Yeah. Okay, I got a quick question for Rachel dives in, because she can walk through this, but I'm just curious. How does a person who is really good at teaching other people to be organized not figure out how to do a budget? I'm not saying that in a judgmental way. I'm just curious where you think the disconnect is there. No. So I know how to stick with a budget. What happened was I was going, a custody battle came up in the middle of everything.

Starting point is 01:47:52 And then my dad got early on to Alzheimer's. This was all like in a short period of time. And it just threw me for a loop. And a lot of my money went into custody. And then I ended up taking out an EIDL loan, which I've never been like a credit card person, a loan person. I actually kind of got talked into getting a business credit card for my business and then because I was paying everything cash before that.

Starting point is 01:48:24 And the custody battle happened. I put the whole custody battle on my business credit card because I was like desperate. And so yeah, this is where I met. And I never coached anyone on finances. I coached neurodivergent families how to like set up systems in their home to keep their homes like functional and how to like live purpose in their home and yeah so but right now I just I'm just in over my head as far as what what you do my because yeah economy is not that great what are you making in your day job so my full-time job I make 1908 an hour there is it's a

Starting point is 01:49:06 sales job. I do like interior design. And so we do get commission on designs, but I've yet to reach that commission because their whole bonus structure is just, it doesn't make any sense. You have to sell at least $80,000 between installs or whatever. I don't know. So I've never reached that. And then my organizing job, I have three contractors.

Starting point is 01:49:31 So I bring in right now, it's not really good. I bring in about maybe 2,000 a month with that. So it's, but it's just so slow right now. And I just, yeah, I was making pretty good money. And now over the last couple years, it just hasn't been that great. Yeah. And then you throw in things like a custody battle in the midst of it. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 01:49:55 Yeah. Oh, yeah. I pay for everything for my kids. Like I don't get any help. I pay for the cars, insurance, everything. Wow. Yeah. Well, let me just say, you know, when it comes to your kids, when it comes to your health, like we are all about fighting the fight, right? I'm like, it is you want to, you want to do it,

Starting point is 01:50:13 you know, because those are the important things in life. So that's, I want to free you and, you know, not pile on any level of shame. Give yourself a lot of grace. So, okay, so how much debt, Stephanie, do you have? Do you know? Yes. So I have my $20,000 EIDL loan. That's start payments will start coming out in October. Okay. I owe almost 9,000 on a credit card. Okay. And then my car is, I owe about 13,500 on that.

Starting point is 01:50:47 And then here's like the really hard part for me. I got behind on taxes. I just got paralyzed with fear, by the way. But I just, I got behind on taxes three years. Those are just finishing up being filed. so I don't know what I owe on that yet. Okay. So I'm waiting on that.

Starting point is 01:51:07 So those are my debts. Okay. And you're making $2,000 for your organization business. I know you're making $19 an hour for what you're doing, but how much will you bring home a month with that full-time job? So each check is about $1,200 and some change after insurance and all of that. And you get two checks a month? Each every two week, correct, yeah.

Starting point is 01:51:29 Okay, okay. So it's a little less than $5,000. and have you been able to map out? Are you able to pay your bills, Stephanie, meaning your mortgage, food, lights? So I don't even have a mortgage. So my rent, I'm actually in a great situation as far as that goes. I live in a two-bedroom apartment.

Starting point is 01:51:49 It's $1,200. I've, like, refused to move because I'm so, like, nervous. I wanted to get my, you know, finances in order first. So $1,200 for rent. Yeah. And then $4.00. for my car payment and then of course utilities and all that stuff. How much is your car worth?

Starting point is 01:52:10 Do you know? I'm not exactly sure. I did look on like what other people are selling my car, my type of car for. And I saw anywhere from 15 to 19. Okay. So here's what I would suggest. I feel like for you, Stephanie, a good win would be just a quick win to feel some level of traction.

Starting point is 01:52:32 because you're going to start to make some changes, right, when it comes to your money and those changes are going to be uncomfortable because you've never done this before. But the fact that you're not underwater on your car, I mean, man, if you could get, if you could get $19,000 or something for it and go get a crappy $6,000 car, that takes $13,000 of debt. That's gone, just gone. And then looking at your credit card attacking that next. and then the loan after that, the $20,000 loan. Now, when your taxes come back, Stephanie, if you can't pay them by the tax deadline, go get a personal loan from the bank.

Starting point is 01:53:12 I would rather you have a personal loan than owing the IRS, okay? So that will be a step. Okay. And what you're going to do is pay off the smallest debt to the largest debt. And, and again, the car, I think, would give you some traction.

Starting point is 01:53:24 Do you have any savings? No, my putting employees on payroll just drained my savings. I had about... Okay, so you have nothing. Okay. So you may want to re-look to... I wish we had more time with you. I would re-look maybe the structure of your company. I just, I don't know if it's...

Starting point is 01:53:41 For sure. Like, it may be a thing, Stephanie, that you just say, yeah, that you close it down for now. I mean, like, is there something, you know, is there a way to just take that burden off? You're just carrying a lot. Yeah. And I'm just trying to relieve some margin for you. So I do not have any place. employees on payroll anymore.

Starting point is 01:54:02 It's all contractor jobs. I just, yeah, I just contract. But to be honest, I am thinking about just going back to, because it is stressful. Like owning a business,

Starting point is 01:54:13 I've had it since 2016. It's really, it's a great business. We were like all around California as far as like our reputation and stuff. But I just, I'm so stressed about it. So I am thinking about stepping back

Starting point is 01:54:29 and just work. full-time and, you know, maybe taking on jobs by myself for like extra income. But as far as selling my car, that was actually what the reason why I called you. I wanted to see if you thought that that was a good idea. I probably would honestly. I mean, that would be such a relief, not to have that car payment every month. Yeah. What is the payment?

Starting point is 01:54:50 Yeah. What's the car payment? 404. I mean, listen. $400. Stephanie, how much would you love a $400 raise per month? I would love to just like. take that 400 and put it into like the rest of my debt and just get your record on.

Starting point is 01:55:06 No, that's right. If you stay on the line, Kelly and Austin are going to pick up. We want to give you Financial Peace University. It's our nine lesson course. Stephanie and every dollar premium. It's our budgeting app. And then also I'll have them connect you with a financial coach in your area because I know as a single mom, you're juggling a lot.

Starting point is 01:55:22 And I think sitting down with someone who has the heart of a teacher who can walk through really specific numbers and scenarios. And it may only just take one session, but it's better. than a, you know, a seven-minute, you know, chat that we were able to have here on the show. But we want to connect you with some of that stuff, Stephanie, because you're on the right track. You're like right there, and you've got to just start making those steps, and you're going to feel a lot of traction. So we're excited for you. And on the line.

Starting point is 01:55:45 We're going to take care of you. Thank you for calling. This is The Ramsey Show. Buying and selling a home is a big deal. and you want an expert in your corner fighting for you to get the right deal at the right price. That's why we only recommend Ramsey trusted real estate agents. They're hand-picked pros who know their stuff, listen to your needs, and have your back from the first call all the way to closing day.

Starting point is 01:56:17 To find a Ramsey trusted agent near you, visit Ramsey Solutions.com slash agent. Ramsey Solutions.com slash agent. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. Rachel Cruz is with me in studio this hour. 885-2-2-25-3-8-8-25-5-2-2-2-5-2-2-5-2-1. Our scripture of the day comes from Titus 2 versus 7 through 8. And everything set them an example by doing what is good in your teaching, show integrity, seriousness,

Starting point is 01:57:01 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us. And our quote of the day from Les Paul, don't say you can't until you prove you can't. All right. How about that? There you go. There it is.

Starting point is 01:57:21 Thomas is joining us in Asheville, North Carolina. Thomas, how can we help? Hi, thank you guys so much for taking my call. Sure. What's up? So my father has planned a vacation for this summer for the whole family. I'm married. We have two children. My brother's married. He has three children. He gave us a little bit of heads up on it, basically just asking when the kids would be going back to school, and then he planned this trip for the end of summer.

Starting point is 01:57:53 We're right in the middle of Baby Step 2, should be debt-free by, looks like, November. He's paid for the location and, like, lodging and everything. But my main concern, I work like 70, 75 hours a week. Wow. And I don't have any paid time off. So my main concern is missing that income while we're on this trip. So I was kind of hoping to get you guys advice on that. So before dad comes to you with this vacation idea, what was the plan?

Starting point is 01:58:30 What were you and your wife thinking about summer? No vacation? Yeah, I mean, we've been busting it just trying to do everything. being paid off. It's gazelle intense. Yeah. So I'm going to oversimplify it because I think this is the key issue. You weren't going to go on a vacation. And we agree with that. You guys are going hard. Man, you're working 70, 75 hours a week. That's impressive. And you weren't planning to anyway. Now, dad's asking you to do it. Wait, that's what I'm not to jump in. Did he ask or did he tell you guys? Well, did he say, well, that's an interesting part of it. It was a little bit of both.

Starting point is 01:59:05 You know, like my brother has children. Our children have never met their cousins. He's kind of really loving the whole grandpa role and kind of wants everybody to get together. They're getting a little up there in age, so he kind of looked at it as an opportunity to get the whole family together one last time and have all the grandkids in one place because my brother lives a thousand miles away from where I live. I would, so I think, well, I'll tell you what. I'll ask one other question. I want Rachel to see what she says here. is he paying for everything or just the lodging,

Starting point is 01:59:40 meaning you guys would have to pay for the travel to get there plus meals? Food, he's handling food and lodging because I'll be doing most of the cooking. That's kind of how it's always worked out as he buys the food and I prepare it. But we, I mean, we'll basically just be responsible for gas to and from. So it's not so much the expense of the trip, but the missed income. That's right. How many days will you guys be gone? Six or seven, depending on when we travel back.

Starting point is 02:00:12 All right. The only other question I have is, can you, man, you're already working 70 to 75 hours. I want you to have a vacation. Yeah, but they weren't planning on it anyway. I know. So this is not so much like an opinion. It's advice. And I think I would do what you believe is right to do.

Starting point is 02:00:32 and I think I know the answer to that. I don't think you want to go, Thomas, right? I don't think you do either. I really do. I really want my kids to meet their cousins, and I really want, you know, my parents the opportunity to have all their grandkids in one place because they're, you know,

Starting point is 02:00:48 both two, five, six, and seven, and they've never all been in one place at the same time. But... But, I mean, I'm just... I'm concerned about... But what a week of it... Hold on. I'm going to be devil's half-kick. Hold on. Hold on.

Starting point is 02:01:01 Be devil's half a kid. I want him to finish that something. Okay, go. Go, Thomas. Sorry, cut you off. We've been working really hard, and I'm just kind of, I guess, very apprehensive

Starting point is 02:01:14 about what that month's budget will look like with, you know, several hundred dollars missing from it. And I don't want that to take away from what the experience is supposed to be if I'm there, you know, worried about that. So have you added up how much money you will

Starting point is 02:01:32 lose out on being there? Probably about $1,100 or so, and that's not counting the gas to and from. Sure, sure. And how much debt do you guys have left? We've got about $13,000 left. Okay. What would it do to your budget? Would it stress you out without the $1100?

Starting point is 02:01:57 Would that make it super tight? Not particularly. We still have to factor in like we haven't, you know, the kids back to school stuff is going to be that month and the month prior to that in August. So we'll kind of just. I mean, here's, okay, Thomas, you got to do what you got to do. Here's my, here's my devil's advocate. What would you do? To be with, and again, this is if you want to, Thomas. If you feel guilty, if there's some weird emotional thing, if Dr. John Deloney was in here and is asking you, like, psychology questions of family stuff right like if it was just a healthy situation i think giving up $1,100 to be with family for one week because it doesn't happen it's not like this is a yearly tradition would be worth it for a family situation like that and everything is paid for not they're making you pay for everything that's one thing you can't afford to go everything is paid for and maybe

Starting point is 02:02:55 you go half the time maybe you and your wife say hey we're going to go for four days and There's something about living life still. And this isn't taking you guys deeper into debt. It may, it may slow it down for three weeks, the debt snowball. I agree. But there's something about the situation feels, the situation just feels so unique that it's not going to happen. And for $1,100, a pardon would say, oh, my gosh, like, go be with your family. I agree with that if that's what's going on.

Starting point is 02:03:28 And if that's what Thomas wants to do. I don't know if Thomas wants to do it. Let's ask him. Thomas? We definitely want to. No, I forget the want to. No, here's what I'm asking. You're working 70 to 75 hours a week.

Starting point is 02:03:40 Is that to pay off the debt faster or is that to make insmeat and the $1,100 is going to make things super tight? And it makes me feel like that's the case when you're talking about school supplies and $1,100. No, hold on. Let's let me answer. Well, no, I mean, if I was working 40 hours a week, all our. basic, our budget could sustain on that.

Starting point is 02:04:04 The extra work is just the gazelle intensity. Because we're putting about anywhere from an extra probably 1,500 or so for a month on the day. So back to Rachel's point. It's a month behind. $1,100 not making that. It's not going to make life tight. It's just going to slow the snowball down. That's right.

Starting point is 02:04:23 Yeah. Then I would, I agree with Rachel now that I have the facts. Wow. You didn't let me. I was trying to get the facts from time. Life raft and kinsid, sure, Rachel. No, I actually agree. I just needed to get to that point, though.

Starting point is 02:04:36 That's good. That's good. I couldn't tell emotionally if he was, what's the 1100 doing in this case? I think because the kids have never seen each other before, dad and mom are getting older, all the things you already said very well. Thomas, I'm okay with that. And honestly, Thomas take four days of a paid-for vacation as a gift of a little bit of rest, too, right? I mean, y'all have been working like crazy, which is amazing. It's exactly so proud of you.

Starting point is 02:05:01 But this is a unique thing and I agree with you. I would say go. You've only got one shot around this globe and I would do the family vacation, knowing that the $1,100, you're not going to have that. The subtraction of that is not going to make things tight to where you can't enjoy the vacation. And I also want to point out, Thomas, I would like to vacation with you because I'm all for buying the food and you cook it for me. I would like to point that out, Rachel. This guy's great to vacation with. It sounds great.

Starting point is 02:05:27 Hey, Thomas is coming. Great. Let's go get the brisket, you know? Thomas, here you go. How do you feel now? You feel like this is the right move? You're going to do it? You got to talk to the wife.

Starting point is 02:05:38 What's the story? Yeah, I'm going to talk to her about it. I think there's a mentality shift that needs to take place because I've been, we've been doing this since August. Yeah. I think it's a memory. And I don't want you to lose momentum either. So just see this as like a quick pause, a breather, paid for a vacation, and then you're back at it. But I think the scope of family and cousins and all of that,

Starting point is 02:06:03 there's something really special there that I would hate for you guys to miss that out because you wanted to pay off debt one month later. That's right. And I'd make the old man cook one meal for him. Yeah. Maybe go half the time. All right. Good hour.

Starting point is 02:06:14 Rachel Cruz. Thank you, James Childs and our team. Thank you, America. This is The Ramsey Show.

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