The Ramsey Show - You Don’t Have To Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck!

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

💵 Sign-up for EveryDollar today - The simplest way to budget for your life! George Kamel & Ken Coleman answer your questions and discuss: "Should we buy a house or keep renting?" "I just lost my job, what should I do?" "What ever happened to haggling at car dealerships?" "I'm 60 and having nothing in retirement," "How can I find a more fulfilling job?" 📞 Have a question for the show? Call 888-825-5225 Weekdays from 2-5pm ET or click here! Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp Christian Healthcare Ministries NetSuite Zander Insurance Neighborly Next Steps ☂️Protect yourself with the right coverage—take our coverage quiz! 🏠 Find a Ramsey Trusted Real Estate Agent 📄 Need help with your taxes? See who we trust. Listen to more from Ramsey Network 🎙️ The Ramsey Show   🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 💰 George Kamel 💼 The Ken Coleman Show 📈 EntreLeadership Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life, win with your money, win in your work, and win in your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. It's your show, America. We're here to answer your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. It's your show, America. We're here to answer your questions. We're going to do it with some sass today because the sassiest co-host I have when I'm always privileged to co-host the Rangers show is George Campbell.

I've been called worse today, Ken, so thank you. Have you really? Yeah. Yeah, you got the snark. The snark and the sass. And so we have a lot of fun together and George is going to kind of lead off on the money questions. If you've got anything related to work, income, impact, feeling like you're getting passed over, what do I do, entrepreneurial ideas, side hustle ideas, anything about that bigger shovel, which is how we refer to as a way to increase your income, I'm here to help with that as well. So let's take those calls.

888-825-5225. And coming up later in the show, a fun new thing that we're going to try. George and I, fun little idea. Never been done before. Yeah, it's going to be great. It's going to have all of America talking. Might get a Pulitzer Prize for lucky. That's in the wrong category, George.

Okay, I'm doing great. Pulitzer is just for books, but thank you for being here. Lincoln is up first in Orlando, Florida. Lincoln, how can we help? Hey, yeah, my question is, my wife and I, we're going to be first-time homebuyers, but we're renting right now. We're trying to save up that down payment. I want to buy now.

She wants to wait. We have about $80,000 saved up, and we have about $50,000 in our 401k, and we save about $100,000 a year in net worth. So she wants to continue just to wait and just continue to build that nest egg, and I kind of want to jump into a house. So that's my question. What do we do? The great conundrum.

So you guys have no debt, the emergency fund, and there's this sort of discrepancy of should we be investing hard or should we be saving for this house? Exactly, yeah. Could you meet in the middle somewhere? Yeah, her middle is 50% of the house price that she's willing to buy, and I'm okay to do it now because I'm worried about house prices going up. So what's your total liquid down payment you have outside of emergency fund, non-retirement? $60,000. Okay. And what's the home price you're looking at? $300,000. And you've done the math on this to see, is this going to be about 25% of our take-home pay? Yeah, it'll be about 20%. Okay. And that's on a 15-year or 30?

15-year. Wow, way to go. What's your household income? Yeah. After tax, around $14,000 to $15,000 a month. Wonderful. Okay. So if you guys bought now, you're doing it the Ramsey way and doing it the smart way,

what's stopping you guys from continuing to invest once you're in this house? Nothing. I mean, we would just pay it off. Our goal is to pay off our house in four years. So that would be the goal. But she just has a fear that, you know, houses have unknown costs. So she doesn't want to do it.

Well, the unknown costs are known. I mean, it's maintenance, repairs, get a sinking fund. You guys have the emergency fund. You're not going to have a $60,000 surprise repair if you do this the right way. You're going to get this thing inspected and appraised and all of that. And so I think a lot of this, there's a different fear happening here, and I don't know what's behind that for your wife. Because I felt like it was all about she wanted a 50% down payment.

Did I hear that right? Yeah. Which has nothing to do with the fear of unknown expenses. Yeah, her parents bought, when she was growing up, they were really house poor. Ah, there it is. Ding, ding, ding. So she's thinking, so here's what you've got to do, I think, George. I think you have to sit down with your wife, Lincoln, and go, okay, let's run the numbers based on where we are right now with a 20% down payment.

And let's look at those numbers. And I'm talking like the real numbers. Show her in the budget, the whole nine yards, show her the whole budget with this current situation. And then I think you run the same numbers on a 50% down payment. So it's 30% more down and how that's going to lower your price. And you put that in the budget. And then you go to what George is saying, Lincoln, with the knowns and go, okay, well,

we're going to put aside this much anyway for house repairs or we've got an emergency fund. I think she needs to see them side by side, George. There's one thing for him to go, I want to do this. I think it's fine. She's got such a deep-seated fear there. I think the only way to get her on board, I'm curious to know what you think, George. There's one thing for him to go, I want to do this. I think it's fine. She's got such a deep-seated fear there. I think the only way to get her on board, I'm curious to know what you think, George. Lincoln, I want you to weigh in on this, is to show her those two budgets side by side because it's not that big of a savings monthly.

Am I right? Yes, I agree. And here's the thing, Lincoln, I'm thinking about. With the housing market going the way it's been, what she also needs to be thinking about is 50% a year from now might be a really bigger chunk because that home value might go up. And you can look at home prices last three, four years. It has skyrocketed. And we know that history is going to show us home prices will continue to go up over time. And so it's going to be a moving target.

And so we tell people the best time to buy a house is when you're financially ready. And you have checked every single box in the book today, my friend. And so you have Georgia's stamp of approval that you're doing this the right way. You're going to aggressively pay it off. How old are you two? I'm 24 and she's 27. Goodness, you guys are rock stars. You're crushing it. Thank you. And if you walk her through, here's the worst case scenario. Okay. What, what is she really worried about? If you dig into it, have her answer that question. Say, what, what are the repairs you're worried about? Okay. We're going to get a good roof

inspection. This roof is going to last 10 years. All right. Let's check the HVAC. All right. That's going to be 10 grand if we had to replace the HVAC. Those kinds of things, putting facts on paper will help get rid of that sort of scarcity mentality that she's grappled with for a long time now. So I did a little research, George. That quickly? This quickly. I like to do it. Now, this is a USA Today article. It's about two years old. This is just a quick examination here, Lincoln.

So we're going to go a lot deeper than this. But a quick search says that it might help to know that the average American spends $3,000 a year on home maintenance. There we go. Now that's again, let's, let's, let's. It's an average. It's an average. Some spend less, some more. So Lincoln, if you're armed with that kind of information and you sit down with her and go, Hey, look, here's the average, and we can go get some more updated information there, get two or three different quotes. But if you look at that number and you're able to show her that, I think that would go a long way, don't you? Yeah. Yeah, I do.

I think she's fear of the unknown. And I'm a little afraid, too, because when we do dive into those numbers and the details, I want to buy a smaller house and she wants to get a bigger one. She's like, well, if we just save more, we can get a better house. And then, you know, that's a whole other conversation. Yeah, but you guys are young. Let me tell you what Stacey and I did.

Stacey and I got what we thought was a fabulous little house for our first home. Wasn't a great house. Wasn't even close to the dream house. And it was fine for what we needed at the time. It got us in there. We got some equity. We rolled that in. We moved to another state.

Didn't get the dream house there. Got a better house. And so you guys are young and that's going to take care of itself. I guess I just want to focus on what George and I have been telling you, which is you've got to do a better job at casting vision around how this move is not going to result in her greatest fear coming true. That's all this is. This is less about money. This is more about understanding your wife's fears, appreciating them, and answering them. Yeah, and think about it this way.

You get a paid-for house four years from now. Great, that $300,000 house is now a $400,000 house. We can now upgrade, maybe even in cash, four years from now. You guys are in your early 30s at that point. You're doing great, man. And look, it's about $250 a month based on the average. And put that in your budget. Show her, hey, babe, we're going to put $250 a month away for home repairs.

On top of the emergency fund. On top, yeah. So that's safety on safety. Yeah, you just have to address that. I think she's going to be ready to go. But, hey, great young couple, George. Amazing. They're in great, great shape.

Good stuff. All right, don't move. More of your calls coming up. This is The Ramsey Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This is the season for Halloween. It's October. We're wearing costumes, and we're wearing masks.

So if you haven't started planning your costume yet, get on it. And while you're thinking about it, I want you to be honest. A lot of us hide ourselves. We hide our true selves behind costumes and masks all the time. We do this at work. We do this around our friends. We do this around our families. We even do this when we look at ourselves in the mirror. I know because I've been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding behind masks and costumes all the time, if you find yourself hiding from your true self, I want you to consider talking with a therapist.

Therapy is a place where you can be honest, where you can talk to somebody else and reflect and learn, and you can accept all the parts of yourself over time and start living an authentic life. Masks and costumes should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. And if you're considering therapy, try calling my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your therapist anywhere, so it's convenient for you and your schedule. Just fill out a short online survey and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist.

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888-825-5225 is the phone number to jump in. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. 888-825-5225. So I had a meeting this morning, George, around our new event called Total Money Makeover Weekend. This is May 10 and 11. And in just one weekend, what we're going to do in this event is give you the crash course on everything we teach about money. So you're going to hear brand new content from all of us Ramsey personalities on budgeting, beating debt, investing, and making more money.

I just went over my talk today. We're going to give you the formula to become rich. You found the secret. Yeah. No, I didn't find it. I've studied it. Does it involve work? It does.

I'm less interested now. I was really hoping for a shortcut here. I understand. It's not a TikTok video. It's a talk, but it's going to be great. It's like an arbitrage in Airbnb or something. You would think. But it does not involve any get-rich-quick scheme, but it's going to be great. It's arbitrage and Airbnb or something. You would think, but it does not involve any get-rich-quick scheme,

but it will get you rich. That's all I'm going to say. No schemes. It's going to be fun. We'll do Q&As throughout the time. I also saw something that I don't want to give it away, but Jade and I are going to be doing something fun that was inspired by the Ramsey show. Really? Yeah.

The American people want more of this. I thought we were going to do our little barbershop quartet. Me, you, Jade, and Deloney. I'm unaware of this, but I'm open. As long as I get to do the baritone part. Excuse me as I choke. Early bird tickets start at just $99, and they're going to go fast. We only have about 20, what is it, 25, 2600 seats?

2,400 is what the event center holds here at Ramsey. Thank you for bailing me out 2400 seats it's gonna sell out and it's a destination deal i mean you get to come to nashville i mean come on it's fantastic 99 bucks is the early bird ticket price if you want to get the best deal on tickets so get your tickets now at ramsey solutions.com slash events ramsey solutions.com slash events and in all seriousness seriousness, because we have to talk about these things, but it's really going to be fun. I think it's going to be a fun day.

If you've been to a Ramsey event, you know this is not a seminar, which sounds boring. This is something that you can bring your 17-year-old to or the 67-year-old to, and they're going to have a good time. I think that's true. I think that's true. And George is going to be doing balloon animals uh i'll be out there twisting before the event on friday night it's going to be a lot of fun inspired by a caller you and i took recently

one of our favorite calls all time uh kayla starts us off this segment in minneapolis Kayla, how can we help? Hi. Well, I kind of lost my job and I'm a mom of four and I'm just trying, I lost it in July and I'm trying to figure out how to, I'm starting to drain my accounts for mortgage and stuff. What happened? I was very finest. Well, they downsized. Yeah. What field are you in? They downsized in July. Pardon? What field are you in? I was a CCR.

I worked from home, actually. And I made very good money at doing it. What were you making? I was making about $40,000. What has kept you from replacing that $40,000 income between July and now? Oh, I've been trying. It's not easy. I'm kind of, I'm out in the middle of nowhere.

There's like not very many jobs around where I'm at. Okay. And so that's what I'm starting. And I'm picking up all these little tiny jobs here and there, try to keep the mortgage paid. But I'm running out of finances. How much money are you making right now? Give us an idea of the last couple months, just a round figure. The last couple months, I've probably made $6,000.

Goodness. Okay, and so you're in a remote area correct yes okay and so the job you had before was a work from home and so you've been trying to get something like that where it doesn't matter where you live correct right but i've also been working at like like right now i'm working at a hotel and stuff just these little jobs just to help me keep going until I find something better. Here's my question, and I want to ask this. I'm trying to ask this with as much curiosity and no judgment here. Even though you're in a remote situation, is there not a Walmart, a Target, some type of big box store, something like that,

that is maybe 30 minutes, 45 minutes away, that is hiring? Like an hour and a half to two hours away is the closest Walmart, Target, anything. My goodness. And so you've been applying for jobs that are in your field with your experience that are remote but just not getting anything. Right. Okay. So I want to give you a snapshot really quick not to discourage you but i think we got a light of fire here the remote jobs in america right now are back to pre-pandemic levels i think

there's this notion for a lot of people that since the pandemic i can work remote and eventually something's going to pop but the actual amount of jobs that are available that are 100% remote have shrunk back to pre-2020, and that's a much smaller percentage. And so right now, you're going to have to make some really key decisions. And George, I want to bring you in here because this is, yes, this is a professional, and she's got to make some income. But right now, we want to keep the house do you have any other debt i have credit cards but i kind of had to let them go for now of course all right so i've got to pay the bills how much do you have in credit card debt

i have it's probably seven thousand ten thousand so you've just been living off of this to cover the bills or what? Or was this before? That's what I was doing for a little bit. Because it's just me. How old are the kids? For a little bit. 18, 16, 14, and 3. Wow.

So the three, you have no family or friends around that could help with the three-year-old? No. What are the 16 and three-year-old? No. What are the 16- and 18-year-old doing? Are they working? Are they in school? Yeah, they're working. They're going to school. Where are they working?

Where are they working? My oldest is working at a subway right now. He's working part-time. My middle son's doing grocery store, helping carry out groceries and do a till. And then my youngest is she's got a job at.

And what do those jobs pay? She's got a job at an ice cream shop. Like the grocery store, I think it's eight. Subway, he's making eleven something. And my daughter will be making like eight. What are you making per hour at the hotel?

Right now, I'm making 14. So I'm doing pretty well. How many hours are you getting? But not well enough. I'm only getting part-time, maybe 16 to 20 hours maximum a week. Okay, so what is keeping you from working another part-time job, making 14 or higher an hour, so that we're now equaling 40 hours a week? Trying to find a place that pays well enough to pay my mortgage. Well, but at this point, we can't be... Okay, what's well enough? What's that hourly rate that you need? Well, I need to be making about 16 at least an hour, We can't be, okay, what's well enough? What's that hourly rate that you need?

Well, I need to be making about $16 at least an hour, and I have to work 90-some hours to make that health payment. 90 hours a week? No, no, no, a month. Oh. I sat down and I calculated how many hours, whatever. But my point is. And I have to be making 16 an hour ideally for the kids, but I took this 14. I'm just filling in at the hotel.

Right, but here's the deal. Kayla, you don't have many options right now. You need to be working two or three jobs. This 90 hours a month is the wrong way of looking at this. You've got the wrong math. I'm just trying to be honest with you. You called for help and I'm going to talk to you like you were my sister. Okay. And I'm going to be like, sis, this is pretty simple. Working two part-time jobs, three part-time jobs. Believe me, they're there in Minneapolis. I mean, I know you're way out in the sticks, but they're there. And we're doing two and three jobs because 40 hours a week gives me, on a four-week month,

that gives me 160 hours. And you're running math on 90 at 16 an hour. And I'm going, forget the 90 hours at 16. My math is 40 hours a week at 14 in one job, 15, 12 at the other. Your answer to saving your house, Kayla, is working and working hard. Where there's a will, there's a way. And I don't want you to lose your house. You shouldn't have to.

Let's go. Let's get to work. Let's make some money. They are out there. Do whatever it takes. And if you've got to sell the house and move somewhere with all the kids to a better job economy, do that. This is your life. Act like it depends on it

because I'm telling you, it does. You need to get serious and fast. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey, when you go against what society thinks is, quote, normal, like avoiding debt, for example, it might seem weird at first, and that is totally okay. We want you to be weird if that means doing things intentionally, including how you spend your health care dollars. And one way to be intentional is with Christian

health care ministries. CHM isn't health insurance. They're a health cost-sharing ministry that's helped hundreds of thousands of families like yours take care of health care costs without sacrificing their freedom. Find out more and join at chministries.org slash budget. That's chministries.org slash budget. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. We are here for you this hour, taking your money questions, your work-related questions about that bigger shovel. I'm here to help on that.

888-825-5225 is the number. 888-825-5225 is the number. Let's go to DJ in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. DJ, how can we help? Howdy. So I'm kind of having some trouble wrapping my head around an issue where I'd like to start my own small equipment rental company, but I have a natural kind of aversion to debt. But I think that the amount that I'm going to need to start this company at the lowest level is going to be enough to where it might be worth getting into some

level of low-level debt. I found a 0% loan for the particular piece of equipment I want to buy, so I'm not sure where to go from here. How much? Tell us about the equipment and how much. All right. So you need the backstory because it's a good backstory. The company that I work for is extremely motivated to help their employees out. They like to have their employees be able to have the equipment they sell. So they sell their equipment at cost plus a small transaction fee on the new equipment. The amount is $30,000 for the piece of equipment that I want plus the attachments that I would need in order to make it marketable. Oh, you get the attachments with the $30,000? You get the attachments, you get the equipment, you get the warranty, and I'm also then allowed to be my own repairman.

All right, so what kind of a machine are we talking about? What does it do? It's about a 3,500-pound mini excavator with zero tail swing. A mini excavator, and are you going to rent that to people? Did I understand that right? Yes, sir. How much are you going to rent it for? I'm going to try to rent it at $350. That's kind of what I've found has been a comparable rate.

$350 an hour? $350 a day. $350 a day. Seems like a pretty good deal. Of course, I don't know much about mini excavators. They usually rent somewhere in that 350 to 400 range who are the people that are renting mini excavators so my goal is to go for kind of the homeowner demographic who says i don't want to pay someone four thousand dollars to do this i'm going to rent this machine for four hundred dollars and do it myself that's kind of my my demographic is i don't have enough money to be wasting it but i have enough money to be wasting it, but I have enough money to rent something. Okay. And a couple more questions here. You started off the call sounding like you were going to have multiple machines,

and now we're just talking about this one. So is this what you're going to start with? So this is what I'm starting with. Over time, I'm going to buy in cash, but just to get that beginning going, I'm thinking a loan would be better. How much cash do you have saved up? So right now, me and my wife are trying to buy a home, and we're also having a child, so it's kind of... This sounds like the worst time to do this. But answer the question really quick. How much money do you have saved up? So, sorry, I'm adding. I'd say about $7,500.

Okay. Yeah, $7,500. How many tons you said this thing is for the mini excavator? How many tons or how much did it weigh? Well, I'm looking on Facebook Marketplace

and I'm seeing a whole bunch of mini excavators running anywhere used from $5,000 to $13,000 to $15,000. Uh-oh. So why don't we just go buy a used one in cash to see if this business even has any merit to it? Exactly. So I've called a couple of local business owners over in the area that I used to work and they said that they tried to buy the used excavators, but what ended up happening was they would go through and have to put new bushings in

and put new pins in, and then the amount of work that it would take to make it marketable actually got them up above the cost of a new machine. If I'm the homeowner, I don't care if it's the shiniest, newest one. I want something that's getting the job done. Oh, I get that, but the cost of making it that would make it run well enough that people would be able to rent it at a reasonable cost. So we've hit a wall. We've hit a wall, DJ. You called us. You want to buy a home. You're having a kid. You're about to go $30,000 into debt in the middle of all of this to hope that you ROI. It's going to take

86 rentals at $350,000 just to break even on this. This is crazy risk, DJ. It's nuts. That's kind of why I really wanted to push towards buying the used. I just have a lot of fear about that because I've seen what those repair bills get me. No, no, no. You're missing the point, DJ. You're missing the point. You called us and you asked, you wanted to know our opinion.

I would not do this loan and I would not do this loan. This is crazy. I would not do this business. This is risky. You should wait. Have the child. Do you have any other debt? I've actually paid off the remainder of my debt. Great. Do you have an emergency fund?

I do. Is that the $7,500 or do you have stuff outside of that? I have a cash emergency fund set aside as well, but I tend to forget that that exists because I won't touch it unless I need to. I would not start a business at this stage. Even if you had the cash, I'd put the cash towards buying a home, wouldn't you, George? Well, and right now we got this baby on the way. We got to make sure that mom and baby get home safe and there's no medical bills to pay.

And this is a lot of responsibility. And so I'm waiting until we got the baby,'re in the new house then we can start this business with cash with cash start slow I would not even though you're getting a discount and it's this great opportunity this is how most stupid decisions start I don't think it's a great opportunity I'm not even trying to dash your dreams DJ but this is really why the reason I walk through who's the customer relative this This is highly speculative, and George ran the numbers. You've got to rent it how many times? 86 days.

86 days. Full-day rentals. You've got to rent it just to break even. Man, that is going to become a weight on your shoulders. Yeah, the only reason that I'm more pushed towards it is because I've talked to four people so far that do this, and they average about 10 rentals a month in the slow season. So it's not, you know, but I understand what you're saying. I appreciate it.

I would much prefer to buy it with the cash. Well, then do that. You are relying on four people who are giving you a story that's worked for them. There's no guarantees it's going to work for you, and they may be okay with debt. You're not. Why would you be okay now but not later? That's what weird to me you're like well in the future i want a cash flow but right now let's go borrow money and i just don't understand where future dj is getting

tripped up by present dj i just have such a fear of standing still that i i'll never do it if i don't what if you're scared i mean that fear of i do that I'll never do it if I don't. What if your fear... You know what I mean, that fear of standing still. I do. Yeah, but let me give you what you should be afraid of. You should be afraid of going backwards. This plan has a healthy dose of going backwards involved. I'd rather stand still and go backwards.

What about you, DJ? I'd say you're probably correct about that. Not probably. I'm rarely right. I've been married 25 years and I have three teenagers. I'm wrong all the time. At least that's what everybody says, George. But in this one rare situation, standing still or staying still or holding serve, you picked the metaphor, George, is a lot better. Why? Well, there's a lot of risk here. My brain just went to insurance and liability and starting the small business. What happens when this person destroys your equipment, gets hurt on your equipment because you didn't maintain it

properly? And that part worries me alone, on top of the fact you're trying to buy a house and have a baby. We're trying to do too much at once. And so for those reasons, I'm out. If this was Shark Tank, I would opt out of this investment. You really handled that well. I mean, when you started running through all that, I have a tad bit of anxiety for our friend. You need some Tums just thinking about it. You know what? Usually I have a little.

He's got some on the desk. There used to be a thing. I was going to pop a Tums right there. There's something about when there's big changes happening in life, it makes us want to go do something a little crazy. Buying a house, having a kid, and you go, now I've got to start the business. If I don't do it now, I'm never going to start it.

George, I want to bring back what I think is a really interesting wrestling match with millions of Americans. I want you to weigh in on it. I get what he's saying. He's young. He wants to get ahead. He wants to own something. He wants to be his own man, work

for himself. I get that urge. And he's going, I'm afraid of standing still. And he's forgetting about the risk of going backwards. What do you think about that wrestling match? That's a real wrestling match. Yeah, sometimes you're standing still because there's a cliff right in front of you. There's a precipice there.

And it's your body saying, listen, man, you're not safe right now. And so I'm going to pause on this whole deal. And we love small business. There's a right way to do it and the right time to do it. And both of those boxes are not checked for me. Hopefully you'll listen to us. We're on your side. By the way, George Campbell, not with just great financial advice, but dropping the word of the day. Use the word precipice sometime in the next week with your colleagues and watch them. Watch them look at you. Personal brand goes up just a notch. I make $10 words look cheap. Great word, George. This is the Ramsey Show.

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you need to make quick decisions. NetSuite's real-time insights and forecasting help you see into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you can spend less time looking backward and more time focusing on what's next. And speaking of what's next, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. It's free at netsuite.com slash Ramsey. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. Thrilled to have you with us.

I'm Ken Cole and George Campbell joins me. We're taking your phone calls about your money, your work. 888-825-5225. That's 888-825-5225. Now, George, you were telling me during the break you got a little something to show us here. You've pulled something that America needs to see and hear. I live on social media, as you know, and I get a lot of DMs from people sending me different videos and clips and reels and TikToks. And if one gets popped up enough, I go, we gotta put this on the show. Okay.

And this is one that genuinely made me belly laugh. But I don't know that I've seen you belly laugh. I don't have much of a belly. That's the problem. This is a fair point. So this is comedian Neil Brennan, known for his work, you know, co-producing, co-writing The Chappelle Show. Oh, sure.

A fantastic comedian, and he's got this clip about student loans, and I thought, we have to have Ken react to this. I've never seen it, folks. On The Ramsey Show. Okay. So let's play that. Let's roll. I realized early on that these student loans are basically small business loans, and the business is you, and you're maybe not such a great business. Look, if they call them small business loans,

no 18-year-old kid would ever get the loan because it's a bad idea for a business. If you had to go to the bank, to the small business desk, and ask, be like, yeah, I'm gonna need $150,000, they'd be like, all right, what's your business idea? All right, here's the idea. For the next four years, I'm going to get blackout drunk. But also, I'm going to get a degree in sociology. Yes. Just know that I did have a way to pay you guys back. I was going to

give you $80 a month for the next 240 years. Brilliant. You know, listen, there's not one thing in that clip that's incorrect. No lies were told. He's absolutely right. It is the biggest cash grab in the history of this country. And what I mean by that is the federal government should never be in the banking business, and you cannot call it anything other than that if you look at Fannie Mae and Sally Mae. And they are giving low-interest loans to the American people,

and they're guaranteeing them. And do you know who gets paid right away? The college and university. Yes. That tuition money goes right to their bank instantly. Instantaneous. It is a cash transaction. The higher education business is going to the bank on the backs of the American people

and the federal government is financing all of it. And not only financing it, guaranteeing it if they default. Because if they default, the taxpayers, we're on the hook for that. Yeah, there's no risk to salarymen. They don't go back to the school and say, dear, fill in the school. We'd like you to send $25,000 of that back because junior didn't finish. And what's worse is that this has caused colleges to raise tuition to unprecedented levels. Because they can.

Because we'll just take out more loans because we are that stupid. It is ridiculous. And by the way, look at the headlines. The sociology degree. So let's look at the headlines. You know, I was in New York last week, did a town hall for Fox Business, and the topic was education in America.

And the segment that I was on was about college education. Is the ROI there? And the answer to that question is increasingly no. This is not my opinion. For those of you that are getting really upset at me right now, oh, Ken, the liberal arts are just good. They teach our kids how to think. Let me tell you something. Companies by the score are removing the college degree requirement because the American companies are at a point where they're going, it doesn't matter anymore because they come out of

college and I got to train them for the job anyway. So the status symbol that has been attached to the diploma, the degree, George, it's not my opinion. This is a fact. It is lessening and lessening and lessening. The good news for the American people is it's leveling the playing field. And so I just want to practically say to our audience, we have a lot of new people coming in all the time. If I could give everybody listening, watching right now, two simple questions to determine whether or not you need to get a degree, thus potentially get a loan. Ask these two questions. Is the degree the only

way to get qualified to do what I want to do? Second question, is the degree the best way to get qualified to do what I want to do? If the answer is no, I've got great news, America. There's a trade school, a certificate program, an associate's degree that you can get for pennies on the dollar and find your path forward. George, this is the message that the Ramsey Show has got to beat over and over and over again, because we've been sold a lie that the degree is a guarantee for success, and it's garbage. It's absolute garbage. On top of that, the pressure we're putting on 16, 17-year-olds to go, hey, sign the dotted line for something you don't actually fully understand, which is six figures in student loan debt, to hope this is the thing you want to do for the rest of your life because the ROI

is counting on that. That four-year degree is going to pay the dividends and give you a better job and better salary than you would have gotten without it. That's all of the assumptions. And the committee makes a very good point by going, would you give, would you bet on an 18-year-old to that degree if you were a bank? And the answer is no. But you know why banks and people are given loans? Because they're guaranteed by the federal government. So there's no risk. The government's handing out money like it's candy.

And anyway, so great clip, George. He's absolutely right. By the way, I want to make a mention really quick. The Get Clear Assessment, which is a very popular tool that we sell at ramsaysolutions.com, I created it for this very issue. Parents, listen to me. If you've got a kid that's graduating high school, get the student version right now at ramsaysolutions.com. And it will, in 15 minutes, give them a snapshot of how they're wired. In other words, what they do best, that's their talent. What they enjoy doing, that's passion.

It could be turning to work they enjoy down the road. And then what motivates them? What results motivate them? You can, as an 18-year-old, have a general idea of direction. Use the Get Clear tool. If you're an adult, you're going, I need that. RamseySolutions.com, click on the Get Clear assessment. You can see both the adult version and the student version because this will help people, George, not make

a costly decision that they end up paying for for decades. Oh, yeah, it's holding them back. When I covered the stats now are astounding. How many people are delaying their dreams of home ownership and marriage and having kids and working a job they want to because of their student loan debt and the stats on how many people actually finish. I mean, you think about it, you're still going to carry that debt even if you don't graduate. So that's something that on top of the fact you better hope you get a degree that has marketplace value. What is the average length? Do you have a piece of data?

To pay off debt? Yeah. 20 years. So that's the average. To pay off student loan debt. That's absurd. Do you know what the average payment is? $400, around there.

So folks, that's unbelievable. The average payment in America is $400 a month. And the average length of time is 20 years. Do you think the ROI is there, America? Well, they've dangled forgiveness, Ken, so maybe that'll work out. No. By the way, we got hammered for saying that that wasn't going to happen, and we knew it was going to be challenged at Supreme Court level. Supreme Court ruled on it, as we said they would, and it's going

to keep being thrown out there as a football, but again, don't buy it. I'm not catching that football. You couldn't catch a football anyway. I'd have to hand it to you, and even then you might fumble. And that's what we call a soft toss, Ken, in the biz. But let me tell you what you don't fumble. The facts. You don't fumble the facts. I just put you on the spot. You were there, my friend.

That's pretty extraordinary. I don't want to skip over that. Here's the question. Do you want to have a $400 payment for 20 years? No. That's the question we ought to be asking. So, for instance, what if the federal government, when somebody applied for the student loan, because you can do it so easy now online,

what if there was this big flashing message that says, hey, warning, kind of like we do on cigarettes. You could have a $400 payment on average for the next 20 years. Do you want to sign up for this loan? What do you think the response would be? And I know I'm being facetious, but people would take a long, hard pause and probably go, all right, I'm going to back away right now. But instead, they make these loans so easy to get from the palm of your hand, you can go sign up for six figures of student loan debt. Nobody talks about how long the average payment, the payoff date is. That's extraordinary.

All we do is promise the kids you're going to have a great life if you work hard in school. That's what we tell them. So we go, hey, you get the loan, success is guaranteed, youngster. And so what do they do? Right? And then they go, I don't, I don't. You say, well, what about trade school? I don't want to get dirty. I don't want to wear a t-shirt and it'd be all greasy at the end of the day. And you got, you got plumbers making $300,000 a year. Electricians making $300,000 a year. Starting businesses. The American dream. Working for

themselves. Barbers. It doesn't have to be dirty jobs with Mike Rowe. No degree required. Remember those three words. That's the now and it's the next. And you're going to see that continue to increase in the job market in America. No degree required.

Wake up America. Great stuff George Campbell. Don't fumble the facts. Don't f No degree required. Wake up, America. Great stuff, George Campbell. Don't fumble the facts. Don't fumble the facts. There it is, folks. There it is. He picked it up again. That's a touchdown. I'll explain that on the break. That's an interception, actually. Thank you for being with us. This is the Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions,

this is the Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life, specifically with your money, in your work, and in your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the phone number. 888-825-5225. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. And we are here for you. George, take those money questions, and I'll weigh in.

And I'm here on any of those bigger shovel, more income questions. You want more income? Let's talk about it because that helps you get through the baby steps faster. And I'm here to help with that. George weighs in as well. Let's start this hour off with Allie in Tucson, Arizona. Allie, how can we help? Hi, can you hear me? I can. Loud and clear. George, can you hear? Absolutely. There you go. Perfect. So my question is about investing in retirement versus paying off the house quicker. We are a single income family. um, preference and preferences set to where 15% comes out of his paycheck every month or every week, um,

to his 401k. Um, for some reason that has not applied to the bonuses you get throughout the year. Um, and we're just now taking a look at that and wondering if we should make our own individual contribution to the 401k for the bonus amount, or if that money would be better used paying off the house.

Aha. Okay, what's his income? His base rate is about $95,000. Okay. The bonus last year ended up being a total of about 15 gross. 15 in bonuses? Yes. Okay. So about 110 in total compensation.

Yes. Has he checked with the HR team? I'm not sure if he has. We'll have to double check on that. That would be my first step is just to talk with them and say, hey, I know these bonuses are happening. I don't see the 15% coming out. Is there a way to apply that to the 401k, even if it's retroactively, and get some intel on that on their side?

Okay. And if you can apply it, then go for it. That's 15% of your household income, and any extra money beyond that 15%, I would apply toward the principal and the mortgage. And if you can't apply it for some reason, you can't do it in the 401k, you could do it in a Roth IRA and contribute to that. Okay. And the max this year is $7,000. Okay.

You'd recommend treating that bonus as just regular income and do the 15% rather than throwing it at the house. Yeah, because this bonus is part of his compensation plan, and so I'm just going to consider it just like the IRS would. This is your gross household income, and so I'm going to do 15% of the gross household income into retirement. Got it. Okay. How much extra money do you guys have to throw at the mortgage every month?

It varies. The last few months it's been around $2,000. Awesome. On top of your normal payment. Yes, there's a kink there. It is a rental property. Oh, but you guys aren't living in it? No, sir, we're not.

Are you renting, or do you have your own primary residence with a mortgage? We are renting. We have extremely subsidized rent through my husband's work. Okay. So you're renting very cheaply and you hung on to your property as a rental? Yeah, we actually purchased it last year. Oh, while you were renting? Yes. Okay. Yeah, I think it's a great. Oh, while you were renting? Yes.

Okay. Yeah, I think it's a great goal to have a paid-off rental. That thing will cash flow like nothing, nothing else. Yeah. We're intending for it to, whenever we do move to a more permanent situation, to sell it and use the equity towards our personal residence. But since we don't have anywhere here that we want to live and buy a house, we went for it with the rental. So that's wise. You guys have done it really well.

Off to a great start. All right, let's go to Raleigh, North Carolina. Julian is there. Julian, how can we help? Hello. Hello. We hear you loud and clear. What's going on? So I just graduated recently in May, and I ended school with about $270,000 in student debt, and I'd make $52,000 annually pre-tax, and I think I'm just looking for direction. What was your degree in? Computer science. Wow. What happened that caused you to go $270,000 in debt for the computer science degree? It took a fifth year.

And the school has, it's a public school, but it's basically private school tuition. Yeah. I didn't get any. Is it out of state? It is. Man. So what are you looking for? If we could snap our fingers today, what would we want as far as work?

As far as work? Yeah, your job. Let me ask it a different way. What are you looking, what's the path up the ladder for you making more money? What's that look like? What are you aiming for? I'm aiming to live comfortably and pay off these loans or at least make it so my co-signers, you know. Who's the co-signers? My uncle and my father. Oh, yikes. No, but let me re-ask one more time, Julian. What are we looking to do? Are you wanting to go into coding?

Do you want to go into cybersecurity? What is that computer science degree that you overpaid for? What are you looking to do? I know you're looking to be comfortable, but what is the professional path up the ladder? Name it. Software engineering. Okay. So what's keeping you from moving up right now?

Well, I'm afraid of the impact on my co-signers, and one of the solutions I sought was if you join the military and do 10 years, then you could have them forgiven or something like that. Yeah, but let's take the cosigners aside. Forget the cosigners. You need to be making six figures in software engineering ASAP, and you need to pay off the two cents. Or on a path. I want to be realistic. You should be in that 65-70 range pretty realistically. Have you done your homework on this? I guess not. What are you doing now for 52?

I work remote for a small company in Canada doing cybersecurity during the week. My friend, I don't think your sights are high enough. And I'm not, by the way, I'm not getting on you. I'm trying to push you a little bit julian like your path to software engineer let's go let's let's let's let's start working in raleigh north carolina is the research triangle how is it that you aren't on a pathway to making 70 75 six figures in one or two years as a software engineer i I think it's just effort. Am I right or am I wrong? I didn't know it was possible to do that that soon, I guess. It's absolutely possible.

You may have to pay your dues for 12 months, which you're already starting. I mean, at least you're in the technology field. But you need a ladder, a path forward. And you don't need to go to the military because all I heard was a guy who goes, well, I'll go 10 years and pay my penance, and then hopefully they wipe my loans away. No, go make really good money and do what's right and pay off the loan and take care of your uncle and your father who bet on you. It was a bad bet. They didn't need to do that, but you did it.

Hang on the line. Let's give him a copy of my number one bestseller, The Proximity Principle. You need to get around software designers in Raleigh. It's your second job, coffee, lunch. Find out what opportunities are there, how they got where they are. Get after it, young man. Opportunities come when I'm around the right people in the right places, and that's what you need.

This is The Ramsey Show. I've been doing this show for over 30 years and some of the saddest calls I've taken are from situations that are completely preventable. Yeah, and what's so hard is I feel like one of those, especially the ones that I'm like, oh, it's terrible, are people that call in and their spouse has passed away suddenly and they don't have life insurance. When you have to think through how am I going to pay my bills in the middle of all that grief, it's terrible. So life insurance is the one thing, especially as a mom with three little kids that I'm so big on for people to get because it's inexpensive. Zander is the place that Winston and I actually get all of our life insurance.

And it doesn't cost much because Zander shops among a gazillion different companies. It doesn't cost much. You just have to admit that someday you're not going to be here. You've got to say it out loud, and you've got to say, I'm going to say I love you to my family by taking care of them and taking the time to put this stuff in place. The cost of a stinking pizza. To get a free quote, call 800-356-4282. That's 800-356-4282, or go to zander.com.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show, where we help you win with your money, in your work, and in your relationships. 888-825-5225 is the number. 888-825-5225. I'm Ken Coleman. My colleague and good friend, George Campbell, joins me this hour.

And, George, I got to tell you. What's clumping your cat litter, Ken? What? Clumping my what? Your cat litter. That's an old saying. What's clumping my cat litter? That's an old saying among the Gen Xers.

I thought you'd appreciate that. That would irritate me. And I'm irritated. Well, what's irritating you? Whatever you say I got to tell you, it means Ken's irritated. I've got to tell you. I think we need more haggle. We don't have enough haggle in today's economy.

We've lost our haggle. We've lost the haggle. And this is not a minute issue. This is a massive issue. Let me explain. Do you know what I mean when I say haggle, George? 100%. I love the haggle.

I like to bargain. It's a kind of slang word for bargain. And have you ever traveled internationally, George? Yes. Have you been to one of these markets where they're selling goods? There's a lot of haggling going on. I mean, it's a normal deal. You show up, you smile, and you haggle. And no one's upset about it. Everybody gets the haggle. You're haggling, I'm haggling, we're all haggle and no one's upset about it everybody gets the haggle you're haggling i'm haggling we're all haggling i think we need more haggling united states and we don't have the haggle in one major area and it's got me a little upset i am in the middle of uh now research to buy

my second child a car he's turning 16 in april and here i am and i'm reminded of the experience that i had last year trying to haggle so let me let me give you the the kind of the the bad guy in this deal it's carmax i'm gonna throw him under the bus just like that i am i'll tell you why uh they started this nonsense 30 years ago did you know this they've been marketing the hey we're the no haggle guys they were the first ones to come out in the car industry that I know of, and they made it a national campaign slogan. It was, you come to CarMax, and we got the no haggle pricing. And I remember the first time hearing it going, how does that work?

I remember when they came out with it, George, I went to myself, I'd like to haggle still. And I remember going to CarMax going, is this really a thing? And boy, oh boy, is it. They weren't interested in haggling.. And I remember going to CarMax going, is this really a thing? And boy, oh boy, is it. They weren't interested in haggling. The price is the price. The price is the price. And the notion was, and they did a good job and they actually won with the messaging. They said, look, if you come to CarMax, you can buy your car. You don't have to worry about the slimy car salesman trying to work you over on price. But I can tell you that it's actually

hurt us. It's gone against us. It was brilliant strategy. You know why? Why? Now every car dealer in the world is no haggle. They just jumped on the no haggle train. And I don't like it because when I buy a car, as I did for my oldest son about a year and a half ago, I bought it from private sellers and there's haggling. You get the haggle back when you go private. You get the haggle back. And I think now I'm going to go a step further, George, and you're Mr. Save People Money. So I'm bringing you into this.

And that's why I got to tell you, I think we need haggling in every walk of life. I'd like to haggle over a cup of coffee. Tell you what, I like to go to a coffee shop and go, listen, I got my buddy George with her. We're going to have a cup of coffee, probably going to have more than a cup. We're probably in for multiple cups. Tell you what, I'd like to buy one, get one free on this first one because I'm probably going to buy one. Why can't I haggle over coffee, George? Well, I think, number one, America has a lot of, we have a lot of shame when it comes to social situations. I think we have fear. Well, think about, number one, America has a lot of, we have a lot of shame when it comes to social situations.

I think we have fear. Well, think about it. The tipping screens is another version of the, you know, the shame-based culture, which is, I feel like I got a tip, otherwise I'm going to get shamed. And the same thing with haggling. It's a very awkward, shameful thing, whereas in other cultures, it's encouraged. It's normal. Can you imagine going to the mall with Whitney, and you're getting a little something, and you walk into the purse purse store and you go, I'll tell you what, the ticket price on this purse is $150. I'll tell you what, would you take $120?

Every time my wife, Stacey, and you know Stacey well, she sells everything. She loves to haggle. Well, people haggle with her. I always hear on the phone. She goes, okay. You go to a yard sale. You know what everybody's doing? Haggling.

Facebook Marketplace. Haggle. people love to haggle the haggle is in a lot of places i think it's time in 2024 george and i'm going to make the proclamation today what say you america i think we need haggle everywhere i think we need to be haggling cars haggling a steak i want to go and go you got the tomahawk right there. You're charging $65. I tell you what, I'll give you $50 for it. That's a good deal on a tomahawk. Yeah, I'm making it up. I don't know what a tomahawk is. Well, it's 128 ounces. That's too much meat. I can't even look at that section.

Yeah, I'm with you though. What do you think, George? Why can we haggle in certain areas and we can't haggle in others? Well, some are, you know, they're standard businesses. I can't go to the grocery store necessarily and just go, hey, I think $2.50 is a lot for a head of lettuce. Would you do two? The 14-year-old working the register can't help me with that. And so I try to choose my battles. And there's places you can and can't haggle. That's just how it is. I don't make the rules. I think we, the people, could make the rules,

and I'm suggesting that we all start haggling a little bit more. Try the haggle. You never know what you'll get. What if we take that reverse shame and we go, and it's the poor 14-year-old kid at the coffee shop. He doesn't know. It's not my problem. Listen, I'd like to get two cups of coffee for one. What do you think, pal? And he's nervous.

What do you think, pal? He's not going to go for that. He's scared of getting fired over this. I think he's scared of telling me, the customer, no. I think we need a little more haggle. If we can do it, the customer, no. I think we need a little more haggle. If we can do it in the marketplace, George, I think we should be able to haggle with them all. Getting my kid a pair of shoes.

Hey, here's the deal. You're charging $119 for that. I was across the street at JD's. This is Foot Locker. Now, that's a legitimate version of haggling, which is price matching. But that's a haggle. That's haggling. So at Foot Locker, it's $20 cheaper.

You give me the Foot Locker price, I think they'd do it. And I always look for the price matching policy. I'll tell you. And I'll always take advantage of that. By the way, James in America, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. Alright? I love to frequent J.Crew. And I have decided, as of today, this very

moment, I'm going to go haggle for some clothes. What's the worst they can say? They look at me like i'm an alien that's not the first time that's ever happened there's a version that's classy of this you could go hey i'm not gonna ask for that shirt for half off but could you say hey you guys got any discounts you're running you got any promo codes you could apply so you're being that's a classic millennial cop that's not haggling you're asking if they have coupons. That's getting a discount. The same end result applies.

I want to say yes and I want to ask for the coupon and then I want to haggle. I want to haggle some more. I'm going to haggle with you just to get you to stop talking about the haggle. Can people haggle on your books, Ken, on the website? There we go. Now, see, this is a very good point. I respect the haggle. The answer is yes.

Ken's got a family to feed. When somebody buys something from Stacy that we sell, because we do this a lot in our neighborhood, people buy and sell it all the time. They're always, nobody buys the thing you sell at full price. Nobody does. And I'm just, I'm having a little fun with this, but I'm a little irritated because I think the car industry,

I think we the people need to stand up and start haggling. It's going to take some courage. So I have three tips. You ready, James? I wanted to give some practical takeaways. So here are the three how-tos of haggling. Are we ready? I should have given this to the guys to put on the screen because this is gold. George, three how-tos to haggling you can add or edit. You ready? Number one, be strong. Fair. You've got to go into this knowing that it's not normal. Maybe they're going to look at you like it's weird.

Maybe they're going to shut you down and reject you. You've got to be strong, number one. Number two, you've got to know your stuff. Do your homework. You've got to do your homework. You know, look, Foot Locker across the street. You've got to know your stuff. You've got to know more about that product than they do. You've got to know.

And then number three, you've got to have walk-away power. 100%. That's an important one. And you actually to know your stuff. You got to know more about that product than they do. You got to know. And then number three, you got to have walkaway power. 100%. That's an important one. And you actually have to walk away. Here's what I'm going to do. I tell you what, I'll buy the shirt. If you give it to me for this, I'll tell you what, I'm going to go across the street. Here's my number. Text me if you want me to buy that shirt. That's it. And you leave. The three how to's of Hagley. I think those are strong. And I've done all three of those. Has it worked? Yeah, because they can tell if you're going to buckle.

You know, this is a... What's that guy, Chris Voss? Is that his name? Yeah. Great book on negotiation. Never split the difference. Never split the difference. And Rachel Cruz and I did a whole episode on Smart Money Happy Hour about negotiation, and I pretended like I was Rick the Boat Salesman.

It's one of my favorite episodes. My point is that she buckled, but that's the haggle. You can't haggle successfully if you don't use those three things. Be strong. Got to be okay with rejection. Number two, know your stuff. And number three, walk away. Make them think about it.

I love that. They may never call you back and get it, but. That's fine. A for effort. So there you go. Now, that's my opinion what do you say america speak up in the comments let us know however you're watching wherever you're watching you can email the show i don't care i want to know do you want more haggle in the american economy i say

yes you've got my vote i think we need more haggle especially in cars i'm tired of paying sticker price on cars don Don't do it. I don't pay full price for pizza or cars. That's my stance. You need to follow me on your YouTube channel, and I'll haggle in disguise. At the car dealer. We'll see if it works. All right, more of your calls coming up.

Haggle more, America. Welcome back, America. You're joining the Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman, and George Campbell joins me. 888-825-5225. Hey, the money and marriage getaway is back. I thought I'd bring this up since tomorrow's a big day, George. You got your roses?

You got the candy? You got the chocolate? What is Whitney's go-to? We have opted out of the consumerism holidays this year. Just opted out. Tell me more about this. I think America wants to know about this. We're getting pizza at home.

Picking up some pizzas. Yeah. Now, Stacey and I have opted out of the Valentine's Day mania for probably a decade because I'm tired of fighting for a table. I tell her i love her every day out on valentine's day before two days before maybe three days after kind of random i may stop by uh and get a get a little ribeye make it at home and put it on top the pizza on top of the pizza okay underrated move now america wants to know more from our money saving uh i've never tried it.

I'll have to report back. What other holidays, consumerism holidays, are you guys opting out? Almost all of them. I mean, outside of Thanksgiving dinner with family and Christmas dinner with family, we don't really do a whole lot of celebrating. Now, when you say opting out, no card for Whitney? Not really card people. Really? Yeah.

Man, we've we gotta find a way for you to send an accidental on purpose text to Stacy. To tell her that? You know what I mean? Drop the hint. You send it to her but as soon as it goes through you go oh sorry that was meant for Ken. And it was you going yeah we don't do the Valentine

cards anymore. Wow. Something like, you know what I mean? She's a big card person. Well I think it depends on the people. you know, if that's her, her love language. Yeah. But what do you do when you're, when your wife's a big card person and you're not, you do it anyways. That's her love language. That's what I do. That's what makes you a great husband. Yeah. But my wife is more into like, you know, treats and food and experience versus the flowers and the cards and all that. So I think you should make the pizza tomorrow as a romantic gesture. I think what's more romantic is getting a good pizza versus me attempting a gluten-free pizza at home.

I digress. I was supposed to be talking about our money and marriage event, and I got excited about Valentine's Day. James, are you a card person? Are you guys a card couple where you get each other Valentine's Day cards? Yeah, but we're usually diy kind of cards so i see you with a pair of little scissors and the construction paper well it's more it's more about the kids at this stage you know so it's kind of a you know it's all about the kids dad of the year right there this is something i want to know in the comment section are you people card

givers at valentine's day or do you just skip all the nonsense and do the pizza at home? I'll give you a life hack. I refuse to spend more than 99 cents on a card. Can you get a card in today's inflationary? They only sell 99-cent cards at Trader Joe's. That's where I go to get my cards. I like Trader Joe's. Hey, our Money and Marriage Getaway is back.

It's this fall, October 24, 25, and 26. Join Dr. John Deloney and Rachel Cruz for a weekend away in Nashville. Two and a half days of teaching on communication, intimacy, and money. A lot of Q&A, a lot of fun. And you and your spouse can get away and build your marriage. Platinum tickets already sold out. There's a few

VIP tickets left, which includes meet and greets with John and Rachel. Visit ramsaysolutions.com right now to get your ticket. They start at $799. That's a little bit above George's Rachel. Visit RamseySolutions.com right now to get your ticket. They start at $799. That's a little bit above George's budget. Visit RamseySolutions.com slash events, the money and marriage getaway. And I heard it was great last year, or this year, I should say. It was amazing. I did get to speak. I did a great budgeting talk at this previous one. I hope I get invited back. We'll see. But it is $79989 per couple which is a steal for a weekend marriage retreat right and we make sure it's worth your

while by the way that's a good time i feel i should be responsible and point out that this is a no haggle ticket price and haggle unfortunately uh the ramsey solution's not on board with my more hagglele clarion call today to help the American people. I'm a patriot. I feel like it's patriot level. Is this constitutional? Yeah.

Free speech. Haggling is free speech. Don't get me started. Steve is on the line in the Motor City, Detroit, Michigan, home of the Lions, who almost won the NFC Championship. Steve, how can we help? Hey, guys. I'm recently running into some medical issues that has my family

dipping into our emergency fund. I'm just kind of wondering how much do we bleed down that emergency fund before taking the next step, and what would the next step be as far as selling the house, selling the cars, dipping into retirement, and what the process would be like. Can you tell us a little bit more about your medical condition and is that going to affect you working going forward? Yes and no.

So it's actually been about two years. You guys really want to go down the rabbit hole. It's long COVID or post-COVID. So at this point, it's basically leaving me bed bound for most of the days. And there's no cure or no timeline of recovery at this point. I've seen people recover after two years, after three years, things like that. Are you married? I am married, yes. Is your spouse working? She is working, yes. What's the income of your spouse? She brings home after taxes and everything like that,

right around $2,200, $2,300 a month. And that's the only thing keeping the family afloat right now? Correct. So did you leave your job? Were you fired? Or what happened there? No. So I went on short-term disability because of the illness and everything like that. And that ran us through basically up until December of 23. And now the disability on that has ran out.

We're currently in the process for filing for Social Security disability, but reading everything, it sounds like it's going to be an uphill battle. How old are you two? I'm 35. She's 31. And how many kids? We've got one two-year-old. Okay. How much of a shortfall are you having based on her income? How much more money would you need to kind of not be living, you know, way below?

I mean, using a budget, we'd probably $500, $600 a month, and that would be very, very minimum. That would be break-even, just paycheck to paycheck, but you would be making it. Yeah, without having to spend that extra from our emergency fund, that kind of stuff. Well, that's not, I don't want to in any way minimize your situation, but $500 to $600 a month, that's extremely doable for your wife right now. She may be working a lot longer, but you can't. And if she's working a part-time job or she gets a better full-time job, we can get that $500 to $600 a month. Yeah, and I don't want to make excuses.

It's just, unfortunately, it's to the point where we have child care kind of during the day, and then when she comes home, she's a giant help with our child, who I'm i'm unfortunate to say i'm not fully able to take care of are you able to do any work from your a computer at home uh not consistently no like a phone call like this could wipe me out i mean even a digital job where you're not having to talk all day. No, screen time, things like that. It'd be very minimal, maybe an hour a day.

So what are you able to do all day? Very little. So it's called post-exertional malaise. But basically, the more that I do, the worse that I feel. So I could get up and I could do something all day long. Not a lot, but I could be up and moving around. But then it'd lay me in bed for the next week at a time. It's about a wild ride. It's very bizarre. I'm just staying on the money thing right now because this is about brainstorming and going,

how do we get more income in? And I understand the childcare issue because she needs to help when she gets home but friends and family I mean this is a rare situation you're surrounded by people who know your plight and they go hey we'll help out until bedtime yeah I mean we've got a great support system but it's to the point where I mean my mother's coming over and kind of taking care of my daughter during the day um we do have other family and friends who help out a lot, and we lean on them quite a bit. So I guess it might be a possibility to expand that.

Steve, it has to be. What are your other options? You have no other option. You can't burn your emergency fund. The goal is to use as little as possible from that fund. It's not sustainable. You can't go into debt and live off credit cards. It's just going to make the problem even worse.

So we have to figure out how to spend less and make more. That's the only way to get this $600 in margin. Yeah, and unfortunately right now, it is on your wife. And that stinks. But she can make more money, and that solves this problem it keeps you guys from burning through really important funds that's our reality right now so we got to work within that reality i'm so sorry this is happening steve this is the ramsey show welcome back america this is the ram Show, helping you win with your money in your work and in your relationships.

888-825-5225 is the phone number. We'd love to hear from you. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. And we're going to go to Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Tom is there. Tom, how can we help? Hi, guys.

Hey, yeah, I'm 60. I'll be 61 in June, zero in retirement. My wife and I bring in about $7,200 a month after taxes. That's clear. I have about $26,000 in debt right now between credit cards and personal loans and the tax bill is due the end of June. I have my budget out. Everything's done. My question is, in October,

when they are paid off, I would like to do a max out two Roth IRAs and then do my 401k at work. That still leaves me about $2,000 a month extra to invest. Where is the best place to put that so I get the most return on it for the next four and a half years, five years? What happens after five years? I would like to retire when I'm 65. Oh, boy. Well, I wish you could just announce that once you turn 65, you get to. Man. I would like to do that. I would love that for you turn 65, you get to. Man. I would like to do that. I would love that for you, Tom, but I don't know that the numbers will work out if you just stop working.

Yeah, we're going to get about, we'll get no less than $4,000 a month from Social Security. And I take into fact in 2034, it's supposed to go down 80%. So I have all those numbers crunched in there and everything. My thought is if I can get around $150,000 to $160,000, $175,000, I can take an extra $1,500 a month out of the investments, and that's at 8%, averaging 8%.

I know it's pretty aggressive. We have a Fidelity growth fund in it at work, which averages 8 to 12. So I've looked at that. So I've done some homework, but I'm just curious if there's anything other than the 401K where I'm going to get hit with taxes probably when I take that out. I'm going to max out the two Roth IRAs for my wife and I. You've got 401k through your employer. You have the IRA outside of an employer, and then you can also invest in a health savings account

if you have access to one of those through a high-deductible health plan. That's another spot you can invest. Okay. Is that taxable at the end of the year or whenever I take it out? Because that rolls over, right? You can roll that over. Yes, the HSA will roll over, and if you use it for qualified medical expenses, you can take it out tax-free. It'll grow tax-free. If you use it for something else, then after 65, it kind of turns into more like a traditional 401k, where it will become taxable income if it's not used for those medical expenses. So those are three options for you. Outside of that, there is a brokerage account that's not connected to retirement, non-retirement brokerage account that is taxable. So you'll have short-term capital gains, long-term capital gains. But I feel like right now we need to just focus on stacking,

getting out of this debt. Do you have a mortgage as well? No, our house is paid off. Good. So we have the $26,000 in consumer debt you said will be done by October. Yeah, I have a $5,000 tax bill. Our taxes are $4,500 a year, which is why I want to probably sell the house when I'm 65 and

downsize. Would you pay cash for the next house? Exactly, yes. Yes, would you pay cash for the next house? Exactly. Yes, absolutely. Yes. That's a good plan. The proceeds from this and get something smaller, hopefully maybe have another 50 or 60 left over from that. And then you do have catch-up contributions with the 401k and the IRA at your age. Right. So I would take advantage of all of that, max everything out once you get rid of the consumer debt and once you have a three to six month emergency fund. Right. Yeah. I have the

thousand. I'm not worried about the thousand. I have that. Well, you need more than that once you're out of debt. Yeah. Yeah. So you might not be investing till next year. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Okay. But that's the game plan. And you might need to work longer than 65. Pardon? You might need to work longer than 65, and I would plan on that. Yeah, I've done the numbers all the way up to 67, which is my max or my actual retirement date. So, yeah, I've looked at it. then that gets me like an extra four or 500 a month to my social security. Not that I want to rely on that because you never know. But yeah.

What do you enjoy doing, Tom? Let's just fast forward and let's just assume you're bored out of your mind a year into retirement and you're like, man, I got to get out and do something. What would you do? What do you enjoy? I already, and this is another bonus on that, I did start, I've started two companies during the time frame from I was 18 through now. I've started two companies and sold them. We've done very well. We've been blessed. The problem was, and I'm going to, I'm going to say this.

My dad passed away when he was six months away from retiring. And, um, he, uh, I had a heart attack four years ago. So I was like, I'm going to live like it's my last because you just don't know. And I think that's where I fell into a trap of some of the other stuff. So I have actually about three months ago, started a small company, small business, uh, to take care of me if I'm bored. Uh, my wife and I love to golf. And so we have that also, that's an entertainment thing. But as far as making extra money, I started a small candle company, local. I'm already in some retail shops looking at doing an Etsy thing.

Not looking at blowing it up anything huge, but there is some extra cash flow. It is financing itself right now. I'm reinvesting everything. I've only put about $600 of my own in it to get it started. So I do have some things there. Well, that's good you know and you know why i asked that question yeah i have a plan and uh yeah i just uh that was my one fear was being bored out of my mind uh because you're gonna need to go off a golf course

so many times before you're like okay and that's my point you can slow down enjoy life do those things but fully retiring uh in your, if you're supplementing some of your basics like gas and groceries and utilities in that paid off house, working for yourself or somebody else, that's supplementing because you are way behind on actual retirement and George is right. That's not going to add up that quickly. So having a fallback plan right now is really smart. And I would say to you that we need to change the way we talk about this in America. This idea of retiring doesn't mean just waking up and just fotsing around all day doing hobbies. There is a way to work. I think we should continue to work on some level, not necessarily because we have to, but because we want to.

And I think that we've got a lot of people that are George Boomers that are moving into retirement, and we're watching people come back. Because they're like, I want to do something. And in this case, Tom, the right do something could really help you out on those basic expenses for a while. Tom, can I ask, as a case study, what causes someone to not invest a dime until 61 years old? Well, I think, you know, I fell back on that one where my dad, like I said, he was six months away from retiring. And I hate to say this.

My motto was money is only something you need if you don't die tomorrow. And that was my thing. And we just two, three years ago, we took 17 golf trips down to Virginia. So you've just been YOLOing your entire adult life. It's kind of that Tim McGraw song. Live like you're dying. Living like you're dying. Skydiving, Rocky Mountain climbing.

Wow. 3.7 seconds on a bowling, four-man tree. Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden it hit me like, oh, crap. Yeah. I've got to do something here. There's a lesson to be learned there.

Enjoy life, but also ask yourself the question, hey, how am I going to retire one day? I would find something that you enjoy doing because I think it's- I enjoy the candles. I've had good reception. Not a lot of margin in those candles, though, are there, Tom? More than you think. Really? More than you think.

But you've got to move a lot of candles. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. I buy a candle like two times a year. I'm about 85% profit margin on a candle. Okay, I've got to tell you, I'm very surprised by that. I'm going to do some research on candles, George. I think we're in the wrong.

85%? Mine are soy, all natural. I have a great place that I can go pick up all my materials myself. I don't have to pay for shipping or anything, so everything is real close. Thomas, figure it out. Huh? Guy is going to candle make his way right into retirement. Light one up for Tom, shall we?

This is The Ramsey Show. Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is The Ramsey Show. It's where we help you win in your life, specifically with your money, in your work, and in your relationships. The phone number to jump in is 888-825-5225. 888-825-5225. I'm sitting next to the incomparable George Campbell. I thought you were going to say incompetent. No, no, you've been great today. 225. I'm sitting next to the incomparable George Campbell. I thought you were going to say incompetent.

No, no, you've been great today. Pretty wild how close those two words are. It's only a thin slice between the two sometimes. And boy, do I know. I know, because it's live, man. And you never know what's going to happen, folks. It's one of the great joys of doing live broadcasting. I'm Ken Coleman. I'll be your host this hour, George Campbell co-hosting with me. Let's get to David now in Orlando, Florida. David,

how can we help today? I'm just kind of getting into it. I started listening to you guys a few months ago, and I'm trying to pay off a little bit of personal debt that I have, but I am unsure of kind of the best way of doing it. I've read through the steps and I'm working on paying down roughly 20,000 in personal debt and have some maybe 5,000 school loans. And then I have 20,000 vehicles. So I'm just trying to figure out like, I don't know. So it's a new concept of not just kind of, alright, make more money so you can survive. And that was

always my answer was I'll just make more money and everything will survive. Out earn the stupidity. I'm glad you're here, man. Welcome to our crazy crew. By the way, you're not alone, David. No shame in your game here. We've all been there. So what's your income? Before taxes, maybe $320 a year.

Whoa. Fantastic. What do you do? Work with computers and cybersecurity. Nice. See, I'm trying to tell people. We had a guy earlier in cybersecurity making $50, and we're like, what are you doing, man? David, really quick question.

How much was your education, and what did you get? I think total, it would be probably $60,000 or $70,000. Would you believe we had a young guy that was how much in debt? $270,000 in student loans for a computer science degree, now making $50,000. Can you believe that, David? In cybersecurity. That's what he told us. Schools. Different schools, different prices. Exactly. I said, I got a bachelor's in computer information systems.

Well, David, congrats on the big shovel. Yeah, that helps a ton. My goodness. So now it just takes, we got to go, how little can we live on to throw the rest of the debt? And that's where a budget comes into play. Have you actually done a budget laying out your income minus expenses? Some, but probably not a great one. As I said, in my household, we kind of split everything. So half of what I make goes into all of the house. Are you married? All of the house things. Yeah.

Okay. So what's the total household income? Is your spouse working outside the home? Yes. She brings in, before taxes, like $150. Wow, my goodness. So you're telling me you guys are making $470 gross income. Somewhere in that ballpark.

And you're in $45,000 of consumer debt? Yes. And that's the, I guess, as soon as we split it, I think of like my personal consumer debt. I said, outside of that, we just have the house and then her car and then whatever personal debt she has, but she doesn't have any school loans. So any credit cards and so forth. I would encourage you, this is an aside aside but to combine finances completely and attack these debts together with both of your incomes okay what's stopping you guys from doing that right now um i think we we learned that the the system really worked well when we started doing this way i said early on in the marriage it was one person makes

more and it felt like they weren't paying their part in and they're like all right each person pays in their part that goes toward all the figuring stuff yeah i used to do that when i had a roommate but when i got married that wasn't going to fly with my wife because if my wife stays home i don't go well you're not bringing any income that means you don't get to eat out this month you know and so i think it it creates a weird tension in a marriage that doesn't need to exist whose idea was this yours or hers are you both equally for the separating of the finances oh we're i think we're both equally for it i think i said this was before maybe the the high point of our um earning and it was it would fluctuate one person making $60, $70,

and then it was like, all right, well, you have to put in your portion for the people who's bigger, forwarder, married, and all that. It never seemed to equate out. Then it was like, all right, whatever half of what you make goes into the family pot. It pays for vacations. It pays for pay bills, child activities, all of that stuff. It's just, George is suggesting this for a reason that we're unified, but I can tell when he made that suggestion, it was like me saying you should eat kale for three meals a day for

three straight months. You were like, okay, thanks, George. I don't think you're going to do that. I just think it's going to speed up the process and it's going to create a better marriage, both and. And so I agree. What's going to speed up the process and it's going to create a better marriage. Both and. Okay. And so I agree. What's your wife's car loan? I think she has maybe $20,000 left on it. Okay.

So you're $65,000 all in on consumer debt in this household, right? Yes. You make $470,000. Let's say you bring home $250,000 plus. That's about 55% take home with that income. Okay. Is that fair? That seems fair.

That's about 21 grand a month. If you guys aren't investing, or even if you are, that should be 21 to 25 grand a month you're taking home. Okay. So the question is, can we live off of five grand and000 and throw $20,000 at the debt and be done in three months? Probably. I can't imagine that we couldn't. And that's where the budget, instead of a probably, the budget says, yes, if you follow this math and process, which you do in cybersecurity, there's a lot of processes and you're a process guy, you will be out of debt in three or four months completely. Not just your debt, her debt too. And then you're going to free up all of those payments that can now go toward

investing and spending and enjoying life. Okay. So I'm going to gift you our every dollar premium budget to help you lay this out. And you're going to list income at the top, both of your incomes, every single paycheck gets its own line item. Below that is going to be every single one of your expenses from food, utility, shelter, transportation, insurance, whatever it is. And for the next three or four months, you're going to hunker down and go, how little can we live on to get by to throw the rest of the debt? And I'm telling you, if you do that for four months, you guys will be debt free. Okay. No, that sounds great. And you're going to list out your debts from smallest to largest balance.

Even if it's three different student loans making up to 5K, split it all out, pay them off smallest to largest balance, ignore the interest rates. This is about momentum and progress. And I'm telling you, man, call us back if it doesn't work because I will be shocked if you don't call back three months from now saying, dude, we're debt-free, it worked. Yeah. No, that sounds good. David, we're going to challenge you to sit down and have a new conversation,

a different conversation about how George challenged you, and I agree with him, to combine your finances and what that's going to do, not just for your financial prowess and the ability to multiply things, but also just for your marriage. Couples that do this together, that do money together, they have better lives because you're either growing apart or you're growing together. And I found people with separate finances, they tend to grow apart. And I'm not okay with that. Yeah. And I think they are apart from day one. It's just a different life. I got my life and expenditures and you got yours. And oh, by the way, we've got this little pot we're contributing to. Listen, couples that Venmo each other, y'all good, bro? Yeah. Y'all good? I don't know. What is happening?

Feels like my fantasy football league. We all put $100 in at the start of the season and, you know, hey. That's not the kind of fantasy I want to live. Well played, George Campbell. Folks, he's going to be here for the rest of the show. You don't want to miss more of those quips. This is the Ramsey Show.

Welcome back, America. You're joining the conversation about your life. We do it with you. Here on The Ramsey Show, I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. The phone number is 888-825-5225. Time for our question of the day. It's sponsored by Neighborly, your hub for home services.

There are some things around the house you can handle yourself i can't but maybe you can uh but electrical problems probably aren't on the list you know what you do george when you have electrical problems what do you do you contact mr electric naturally i don't mess with that stuff you're not going to call mr plumbing youumbing. You're going to call Mr. Electric. For a licensed professional with upfront pricing near you. By the way, I'd try the hackle. I don't know if it'll work. They might not like it, but I'd try it. Find Mr. Electric online at neighborly.com slash Ramsey. Today's question comes from Angela in Utah.

I keep hearing about 78% of people in the U.S. living paycheck to paycheck, and I am wondering if we are these people. We do not have debt, we paid off the house, have our one-year emergency fund, paid cash for college for our son, and have IRAs. We try to live a modest lifestyle, but we need our paychecks to fund it. Does this mean we live paycheck to paycheck? Do we need to be very wealthy to not need income at all to not be paycheck to paycheck? Well, good news, Angela, you're doing great. You are not in the bucket of what we would call paycheck to paycheck. And here's how I know that. The idea of paycheck to paycheck, this can mean

a lot of things depending on who you ask. But my definition is if you cover your just necessary bills and have nothing left over, you are paycheck to paycheck. But you guys clearly have a lot of money left over. You're able to fund retirement. You're able to save up the emergency fund. You're able to pay cash for college. And so that would by definition mean you're not paycheck to paycheck. Now, yes, you need income to keep up your current lifestyle and make it sustainable and cover bills. That's normal. But the idea is if one paycheck went missing, you guys would still be okay. You have your emergency fund. You've got your bills taken care of.

So that's how I see it, Kent. What do you think? I agree with you. That concept just is that we have zero money until we get paid next time, and you are not in that situation. I mean, a one-year emergency fund, I mean, you got cash for your son, the IRAs. She doesn't tell us, but I guarantee you when you see a person that's got a one-year emergency fund, I can tell you their IRAs are chock full. And they probably have a bunker

just in case something goes down. In Utah, nonetheless. Good point. So yeah, I mean, the way I look at it, when we do a zero-based budget, income minus expenses equals zero. So when my wife and I sit down to budget, every dollar is accounted for. There's not just money sitting around because we've put it all in its proper place. Maybe that's investing in retirement and 401ks. Maybe that's putting it away in the high-yield savings account or spending. But it doesn't mean that we have no money. We've just allocated every dollar intentionally. Yeah. And where are you on the emergency prepping? Where are you on the scale to you don't care at all to you've got a bunker? I'm in the don't care at all. And here's my thing. Find a friend who's got the bunker and set up an arrangement. So like John Deloney, that's my buddy. Yeah. Something goes down,

I'm going to John's cabin in the woods. It's going to be awkward when he doesn't let you in. That's the hope is that they actually let me in. I am on the not doing anything at all because I believe that there's just no matter of if they want to, whoever they is wants to cook you with the drones and all the things. Yeah, they'll find you. I'm just heading to the beach. Well, I'm ready for the good Lord to take me at that point. You know what I mean?

Why stick around in a post-apocalyptic. I don't want to be there. Left behind tribulation universe. I'm going to go out, get myself a good margarita, sit on the beach, sand between the toes, and when it all ends, I'm going to watch it happen. It's going to be great. Drink your Gumby Slumber and take a long slumber. Well, this is a great suggestion.

There we go. Great suggestion. All right. There's your segment on emergency prepping from Ken and George. We really don't care. So not the show for that topic. Julie is waiting for us in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Julie, how can we help? Hey, thanks so much for taking my call.

What we're looking for is a solution to reduce our workload. My husband currently works full-time and we have investment properties as well. Okay. Tell us more about his job. What does he do and how much does he make? He does maintenance type work and he makes approximately 52K per year. Okay. And are the rental properties paid for? They are paid except for 250000. And how many properties? Yeah. 15 properties, 18 doors. Okay.

And how many are paid off? I would say 60% to 65% of them. And do you work outside the home? No, I manage the properties properties what kind of revenue what are you guys paying yourself if anything at all from these rentals yeah well um i would say on average we're bringing in about 6,500 um profit on the yes 6,500 a month profit and then are you guys paying yourself out of that, or are you just putting that money back into maybe a fund or something that takes care of expenses? What are you doing with the $6,500 a month? Yeah. So up until recently, we were not

having that much income because we've just paid some off recently. So it generally just rolls over in the checking account or we have it in a savings account as well. And what are you wanting to do? What's your question? We just work a lot. My husband works 40 hours a week and goes to work and then almost two to three times a week he needs to go out and make a repair we work a lot of saturdays when there's turnover with cleaning and things like that it's hard to find people who want to do that kind of work that are reliable um so are you wanting to have him quit his full-time job well that's my question. I don't know if that's a wise decision. You know, we have medical benefits to his full-time job. Well, and the revenue,

your take-home pay from these rental properties, will it increase if he's working on this full-time? What would that do? Yes. We paid about $65,000 last year for someone to do repairs that my husband would then be doing. And he's capable of doing every single one of those repairs? It was just a time issue? Yes. It's just a time restriction. What's your equity on these? So I know you've got, I think you said 16 properties and you owe $250,000 total across all of those. Right. So of the ones that are paid off, what's your equity? Oh, probably around the same.

What do you mean the same? What do you mean the same? $250,000? Yes, probably closer to 400K. So 15 properties total are only worth 650K? I'd say 15 properties total are worth about a million. Okay. Well, you owe 250, which means you have 750 in equity. Right. Okay. You see where we're going? And the reason I'm asking this question, Julie, is because if he would prefer to walk away from the current maintenance

job and the only thing keeping him there is benefits, then you want to get to a place where you're self-insured, right? And the only way to get self-insured is to look at, can we cash in some of these properties, pay off the 250? So George is doing the math for you. So that's why I'm asking that question, because I want George to kind of weigh in. I personally would start unloading some properties, remove the debt, and then look at what's the plan to get him. Yeah. Because I've got friends who do this, Julie, full-time. They're in the rental investment property business.

They are paying thousands a month in health insurance because they have to go get private health care out in the marketplace versus through an employer. And it's a huge cost that could make this not worth. The juice may not be worth the squeeze here is what I'm trying to say. And so where I'm going, Julie, is do we cut back on how many properties we own to where because this is about time. This phone call is about, we're working our property management company, and they take a cut and it lowers your take-home pay, but it alleviates the time on Saturdays and all

of this stuff that you're, you know, that you called in about. We got about 40 seconds. What are you thinking, Julie, about what we said? The other thing I did want to mention is we have the means to pay these off now. Do you have the cash? I have the cash. I could pay them off. Do it.

You know what that's going to do? Increase your cash flow. Yeah. I'd look at a property manager. It's going to reduce your risk. And then you can afford to do the property management, take the cut, and still be fine. But you guys are trying to reduce your amount of time working on these things. So you got to weigh it. You know, how much is it costing us financially to manage all these

properties ourselves? That's, this is a simple formula. You guys just need to cut back somewhere, pay more somewhere else. But I'm proud of you. This is a great situation to be in. This is The Ramsey Show. Welcome back, America. We're talking about you with you. This is the Ramsey Show, helping you win in your money, in your work, and in your relationships. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. And we're here for you this hour. 888-825-5225.

888-825-5225.-888- 825-5225. Let's go to Birmingham, Alabama, not too far south of us here in the Nashville area, and Ryan awaits. Ryan, how can we help? Hey, quick question for you guys. I am 24 years old, and I work in the

sawmill supply industry, and I'm a salesman. The what supply? I'm sorry, the what? I work in the sawmill supply industry, and I'm a salesman. The what supply? I'm sorry, the what? I work in the sawmill supply industry. Sawmill, I apologize. Okay. You're good. And I make around $45,000 a year. I have no benefits. I make no commission on any sales. And I do deliveries to kind of supplement what I do at, at the shop there. And I ended up working a lot of overtime and being on salary, I don't get paid for that overtime. And, um, I think last year through about November through October through December,

I worked 76 hours of overtime and, um, I didn't see a penny for it. And I have talked to my boss, and it's kind of a hard situation because my wife's cousin is married to my boss, and we go to church with them. We're very good friends with them. And I had a conversation about it telling him that I wasn't really exactly happy with working that amount of overtime and not getting paid for it. And he looked at me and he told me, you know, I completely understand if I was in your shoes, I feel the same way.

And then the next day proceeds to send me out to a – and I worked about 30 hours of overtime that weekend. And I asked to have off Monday, the day off, and he told me that that wouldn't work. How should I go about handling that, you know, from the work life and the, I guess, family life, social life situation? I'm just really confused about how to handle it okay so you need to handle it the way that you would want somebody to handle it with you so you put you put yourself in his shoes and you've already been really up front um yes i i'm gonna i'm gonna reserve my real feelings about this guy because he's married to your wife's cousin i could care less about the married connection. So I'm going to reserve what I really think about the guy and just tell you that you need to start looking today, period. And when you find something that is something that you

enjoy, maybe sales, you're good at sales, You got something that the compensation is matched up to your effort and there's no lid on you. You are in a situation where there is a lid on you. You have very respectfully, it sounds like, raised your objections and he kind of said, I understand I'd be the same way if I'm you, but sucks to be you. I need you to go out this weekend and I'm not giving you money off. I mean, it's just tone deaf. So that's about all I'm going to say. I already went past the line. I said I wasn't going to say anything.

I couldn't help myself. But here's the deal. You find something else that's better, that gives you a ladder. So better in the now and better in the next is our goal. Does that make sense? And then once we find that, we accept that job, and we get that deal done. Then we walk into him, and you treat him with class, even though I don't think he's been classy to you. I think you go in, and you just treat him like, hey, man, listen,

I appreciate what you've done for me. You gave me an opportunity to work here. I appreciate it. I found a better opportunity for me and my future, and so I'm turning in my resignation. And you wave to him at church, and everything's fine. That's right. You act like it never happened.

But I feel like there's something beyond. I don't think you're staying here because of the relationship. Are you worried that you can't find something better, or that you don't know what that next thing is? Basically, what happened was, me and my wife, I actually moved here about three months before I got married. I'm originally from Ohio. I went to school down in Florida. That's where me and my wife met. She's from Florida and we moved here. So we're about 10 hours from both of our families. We kind of

like to be closer. But just right now, I'm just afraid of, you know, I won't be able to find anything. There it is. If I were to quit, yeah. But let's think that fear is unsubstantiated. 100%. To give you a big word. Let's play that fear out, Ryan. Okay. Fear I'm not going to be able to find anything.

Okay. So we look. Not being able to find anything, just more of like something that would compare. My wife does have a job, and we make together about 85,000 years. So we're not by any means struggling. What do you want to do? Right. And I would, and I eventually would love to, um, well, before I went to college, my brother and I, we had a, a decent lawn care business when I lived back in Ohio. And, um, I would love to get back into that and doing, you know, general property

maintenance, that kind of thing. I'm good at it. I know what I'm doing. And it was just, my fear is, um, you know, my wife and I want to start to have kids. I would love for her not to have to work, but right now she has to. And I can't really plan my, I can't plan my weeks out or anything because usually these trips I go on, I know the day of if I'm going and if I'm going to be gone for three days at a time. And it's just, it's just a struggle because also my boss's father, who actually owns the company I work for, we have financed our house through him. And he said he'd be willing to buy it back, but we're just tied in a lot of different ways. And I don't know how to handle it. Well, I just told you how to handle it. And the finance thing, I mean, he wants to get paid back.

So if you handle yourself like a turd, maybe he changes the terms. Maybe he tries to mess up, but you're not going to handle yourself that way. If you went up and said, hey, we're going to move. We need to sell the property. What happens next? He actually said whenever we want to sell the property, he would buy it back from us for how much ever is owed. Well, then for how much is owed? Wait, did he give you that?

I don't understand that. No, sorry. It was a mortgage. We had a mortgage through him, basically. He was acting as our bank. So he gets the mortgage back with 0% interest? Right. We're paying about 5% interest right now.

So he said whatever we have not paid off of our mortgage, that's what he will buy the house back for. That's what I'm saying. That feels like a crummy deal for you guys. You lose all of your equity? It's an awful deal. Exactly. Exactly. This sounds like a scam. Yeah. And a part of what I'm going through right now is, the reason that the mortgage is so high, the house was bought for about $150, but he tied into that mortgage the loan to remodel that house.

And a lot of it was they did surface work, but our plumbing is bad, our duct work is bad, all that kind of stuff. And we just got quoted $17,000 to fix all that. And I don't know if I want to spend $17,000 into a house. You got used, dude. You got played, and it sucks, and it's a stupid tax that you might have to pay at the end of this. But I'm getting out of this whole situation. I would get out. Stop getting tied with family and weird boss situations. I mean, Ryan, you got a bad deal and there's no fixing this bad deal.

Get out of it now. Now, I want to go back to the other issue of the fear. George has a great, great perception there. Listen, if you want to get into lawn care, you're not making a ton of money right now. You're making $45 a year, I think I wrote down. Is that right? Right. Yeah, that's correct.

Dude, you could go make $45 a year for somebody who needs somebody who's a hustler and who will get out there and do a lot of the work and self-managing properties. I believe you can go from $45 to $45 right now with not too much effort in Birmingham. But more importantly, I would look to get into the lawn care business, property management business now. Here's why. Someone's going to pay you to learn how to do it for yourself one day. I don't think this is a big stretch, but listen, instead of sitting around thinking about it and stewing about what would happen when you leave, start thinking about what you want your life to look like. You need to cut ties with these people. I think it's manipulative that you're in a

manipulative, unhealthy, weird situation. And you need to be thinking about what you and your wife want to do, who you want to be, where you want to do it, how you want to do it. Take some ownership of your life. I think you've got to be moving into the area you want to be in the future, but have someone else pay you to learn how to do it. With a path to $55,000, $65,000, $75,000, $100,000.

Let's go. Let's start looking today. When you hang up, you need to start looking. I already have been. I've already started down that process. I've got a lot of connections in the town where I live, and I've handed out cards and everything.

So I know it's doable. I just would hate for, because, you know, my father-in-law is a very successful businessman, and I'm just trying to be as good as I can at what I do. You are, Ryan. No, you're terrified to offend somebody, and you've got to stop. I want to bring it back to George for the remaining 30, 40 seconds here on what he needs to do on this house situation.

Take it away. You need to figure out what the terms are that you sign to, if there are any, and get out of this deal as unscathed as possible and get your equity back. I don't like this deal where he gets it for whatever's left from the mortgage versus the market value. So you need to figure all that out, do do your homework so that you guys get out of this thing with as much money as possible. Man, that sucks.

Golly, that makes me angry. Time to man up, Ryan, and not worry about what everybody else is going to think or say about what you are supposed to do with your life. You're a good dude. Own it and make some action happen quickly. This is the Ramsey Show. Welcome back to The Ramsey Show. I'm Ken Coleman. George Campbell joins me. Our scripture of the day comes from Isaiah 6, 8. Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send? And who will go for us? And I said, here am I, send me.

Our quote from Thomas Edison, if we did all the things we are really capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves. I feel like that's got a sports reference for you, George. I don't think Thomas Edison was a big sports guy. No, but I'm applying it. Oh. He's saying, if we did all the things we're really capable of doing, we would astound ourselves. And this is my encouragement and pitch to get you out on the pickleball court with me.

I know you're a little reluctant to do any kind of sport. I feel like over 30, you're asking for a torn ACL on the pickleball court. No, no. I've been playing for months, and I'm fine. These hammies don't move like they used to, Ken. I'll tell you that much. I've played golf with you. What are the chances that we play pickleball?

After seeing me play golf, I'm surprised you ever want to see me do anything athletic. Well, I think it's a lot less work. It's a lot less motion. You just keep it in here. You know, it's not this big, long swing. True story, James. I played golf with George one time on a Ramsey personality retreat. And I don't want to exaggerate here, but

you swung at the ball on one tee I think six times and never hit the ball. It was the funniest thing I'd ever seen in my life. Everybody was laughing because I was just hitting air or dirt consistently. I was on the ground. I was sitting on the ground beside myself watching because you were really trying. And you weren't swinging hard. That's the other

thing. It wasn't because you were really going after it. You were like an old woman missing it. Yeah. But I appreciate that you went out there and did it. But to be fair, I also destroyed you in mini golf one time. That is such a rumor. There was no destroying. You snuck up on me because I wasn't taking it seriously.

All right. Hey, bring Ken to the skate park and see how he does on a skateboard. There we go. I'll out-skate you any day. I will admit that I wouldn't be able to stay on the skateboard more than a second and a half. That's an extreme sport, Ken. No, I couldn't do it. I have no ability on a skateboard.

So there you go. It's all right. We stick to behind the desk because it's a safe place for us. It's a safe place. On the mic's a good place. How about Harold joining us in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? Harold, how can we help? Hey, guys.

I'm a little nervous, so I apologize. Well, listen, you just heard the two of us talking to each other. How could you possibly be nervous talking to us? It's because, well, George and Ken, by the way, thank you for taking my call. You're doing great. Yeah, thank you. George, just want to tell you that your book has changed my life around a lot. How about that? I'll be honest, man. I got one more chapter to, uh, finish up, which is tonight, but, uh, I'm a newbie. I started listening to the show three weeks ago by a friend who kept

telling me like, you got to listen to Dave Ramsey. I'm like, who's this guy he's talking about? And, um, he started plugging in and sent to this day I'll listen to all your episodes back in November just to keep me going and going and going. But my question is, um, I am in $31,000 in debt, uh, 20,000, uh, in school loans and, uh, 10,000 is in my, uh, you know, credit cards and stuff. But, um, I think I make good money for, you know, last, last year I grossed out about 110,000 dollars. Um, I have a goal, uh, and my why is my kids, my kids and my, my girlfriend.

Um, but my goal is, uh, I want to clear my debt off just because I want to be able to take my family on a vacation. I've never got to experience that as a kid, but I want to take my daughter to a Disney world. That's a great why.

Changing the family tree, getting to have an amazing experience. Tell him how he does it, George. Well, we're going to help you break these chains, man. You're going to never see debt again after we're done with you. You make $110,000, you're $31,000 in debt. So there's a simple math equation here, and it's how little can we live off of, and how quickly can we pay off the debt with the margin we create? Correct, yeah. And not to cut No, good. Within these three weeks, I paid off two credit cards, you know. Wow. And like I said, I also forgot to include was I have two personal loans, which are roughly about $5,000.

One of them, I only the old 1200. And I just, I feel like if I pay that personal loan, that will save me a lot more money to keep going after more of my credit cards. But yes, I'm sorry not to cut you off, but I just wanted to- No, that's helpful. Well, I found the people who actually pay off debt, they follow the debt snowball method.

And what you're wanting to do is, hey, let's free up the bigger payment. Let's do it this way. But we found that you're going to knock out these debts so quickly that it's not really going to make a mathematical difference, but it will make a psychological and emotional difference when you knock out another two, three credit cards in the next month because of that momentum that you've created. And so you're going to free up the payments either way and make it 110. How quickly do you think you'll be able to pay off this $31,000 plus the personal loans with some intensity? I'm hungry. I'll be honest. Not a boy. Eight months? Great answer.

I'm hungry. My goal, I'm not going to lie, I told myself six to 12 months, but I'm trying to attack it as soon as possible. You got any savings? I do. I actually have about my emergency fund of $1,000 that I put to the side, but I also have an extra about $5,000 as well. Dude, that's amazing. So how many, if you list out your debt smallest to largest, how many can you knock out with that $5,000 sitting in savings? I can knock out, I want to say, two credit cards and a personal loan. That's amazing. And that's going to free up a whole bunch of payments,

which you're going to apply to the next debt and the next debt. So I fully believe this debt's gone in six months. Pause all investing. Just go scorched earth. I mean, cover food, utility, shelter, transportation, take care of the kids. But outside of you're just working man yeah and i'm not gonna lie i've been with my girlfriend for seven years and uh i want to put a ring as well this year so that's probably another reason why i want to go to disney world just propose to her and surprise her oh i love this she's uh i got engaged at disney world did you yeah i didn't know that you don't know the story

following the footsteps of greatness harold with harold over here telling you it's she will tell that story for the rest of your life it's a great move but you got to pay all this stuff off i mean like when this phone calls over george is he not cutting knocking out those three debts five grand boom let's go yeah i will i will and then i do have one last question all right real quick because we got you got to get to it fast. We got about two minutes, Harold. Yeah, with the Financial Peace University, I was thinking about buying it tonight to actually take, like, I don't know, I guess once I start something, I don't want to stop.

So, like, I'm so focused into this right now. Like, I was thinking about investing in the Financial Peace University to probably help me more to, like, keep me going and going and going. Well, save the hundred bucks. We'll gift it to you. Boom. I don't know if that's what you were angling for, but I'm in a good mood today and I like you, Harold.

Bada bing, bada boom. And while we're at it, I'm going to send you a copy of the book, Breaking Free from Broke, so you can get someone else's journey started. Oh my God. Thank you. How about that?

I appreciate that. You just made my day. Yeah, I'll sign it for you and personalize it as well. So I'll get with the team, hang on the line. Austin will get you hooked up with Financial Peace University, and I'll send you a signed copy of the book since you're an inspiration to me, man. I love a guy who just decided one day, Ken, woke up and said, enough is enough. I worked too hard to feel this broke. I'm done with debt. I'm done with games. I want to leave a different kind of legacy for my family. Done with the chains. I got kids. I got a girlfriend that I want to marry and

start a life with. What am I doing still playing around with debt? And can we just highlight the fact that he's got a great motivator in the form of a vision that he really wants. He wants to take his daughter, take the girlfriend to Disney, you know, the magical, you know, the greatest place on earth, where they call it, everything. And that is pulling him forward like a magnet to knock this debt out. Harold, you did great. I know you're nervous, but, man, you're just crushing it. And Financial Peace University is George's pre-wedding gift. I love that.

It's a good way to look at it. And I will tell you, my friend, call up the Disney wedding department. Tell them, look, I want to do something custom. Here's what I have to spend. What can I do? That's what I did back in the day. You tell them the budget. Yeah.

Now, I'm sure times have changed. Do you think it's still going to cost a nickel and a bushel of raspberries to make this happen? Let me tell you something. I had five gifts delivered throughout the day at different times. Now, I'm sure times have changed. Do you think it's still going to cost a nickel and a bushel of raspberries to make this happen? I had five gifts delivered throughout the day at different times. Stacey thought I was in Virginia. I was there with a Disney staffer behind the scenes. Her father was leading her to different places throughout the park. And she got five different gifts with a note saying, I'm sorry I couldn't be with you today.

It was all a setup. I didn't know you were such a romantic. We ended up right below the castle. Tinkerbell flies over. I pop out from behind a sign. Bada bing, bada boom. Bada bing, bada boom. Put a ring on it. 25 years later, the magic is still there.

Congratulations. The magic is still there. George Campbell, great show. James Childs, our fearless leader in the crew. Thank you, guys, and thank you, America. This is your show. This Childs, our fearless leader in the crew. Thank you, guys, and thank you, America. This is your show. This is The Ramsey Show. Hey guys, I'm Rachel. And I'm George.

And you've probably heard our voices before on The Ramsey Show. And do we have a surprise for you. Yep, we have our surprise for you? Yep. We have our very own show, Smart Money Happy Hour, where we talk about pop culture, current events, and of course, money. George, it's a great show. And what else do we talk about? So much, Rachel.

Not enough. And yet too much. We talk about guilt tipping because tipping is out of control and I won't stand for it anymore, which is why I'm sitting. I'm glad you're taking such a stand. And we also talk about something else I'm passionate about, Disney adults. Oh, George. Why is it a thing? Listen, some adults still find the magic.

Sure. We also talk about toxic money traits and girl math. And if you don't know what those are, you have to listen to the podcast. Yeah, there's a lot there, you guys. It's pretty fun. We keep you relevant, is what I'm trying to say. We help you out. So pull up a chair to the happy hour you wish your friends were having. We promise you won't

regret it. And if you don't have friends, we'll be your friends. We will. We're great friends. So make sure to check it out on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or the Ramsey Network app.