The Recipe with Kenji and Deb - Burgers

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Deb has fifteen recipes for meatballs on Smitten Kitchen, and exactly one for a meat burger. That does not mean Deb lacks for opinions about burgers, oh no no — she goes head to head with Mr. Burger Lab himself, who has published dozens of burger recipes and guides. Kenji and Deb are in agreement about the one burger type that anyone can make at home just as well as a restaurant. Plus, a special announcement.Recipes Mentioned: Fake Shake Burger (Smitten Kitchen) The Burger Lab: The World's Best Burger for a Single Man (or Woman) (Serious Eats) Classic Smashed Burgers (Serious Eats) Oklahoma-Style Onion Burgers Recipe (Serious Eats) Mastering the Art of Burger Blending with Eight Cuts of Beef (Serious Eats) Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

If you're obsessed with food, then I have the podcast just for you. It's called The Sporkful and it's hosted by Dan Pashman, who's also the inventor of a new pasta shape called cascatelli. The Sporkful obsesses about food to learn more about people. Dan explores what is so special about a shallot, should you eat fast food on vacation, and is halal pork even possible? It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. Listen to The Sporkful wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's see how many things I can get canceled for in one episode by angry foodies. Like I don't like In-N-Out burgers. I think their fries are lame. I feel like that's probably the only thing we're gonna agree on in this episode is that their fries are underwhelming. The burgers are great.

I've only had ones that were extremely spongy and mediocre. Like there's no texture. Spongy? Yeah. Wait, how can you say there's, like the whole point of an In-N-Out burger is that there's texture. The edges of the buns are always like crisply toasted.

I'm talking about the burger patty itself. There's like half a head of iceberg lettuce in there. It's all crunch and texture. No, I feel like the actual burger patty. Deb, the fixings are a part of the burger experience. You can't separate one from the other. Yes, but they cannot fix a fundamentally mediocre burger. Wow.

Wow. If we're talking about fast food burgers, so look at In-N-Out, of course it's not gonna be as good as like a burger you make at home. It's not gonna be as good as next tier burger, but for the price and the fact that it's like fast food, you can't, I find it really hard to beat, I don't know. It's cheaper than McDonald's these days,

and it's much, much better than McDonald's. It's definitely better than McDonald's, we can agree with that. Although McDonald's quarter pounder with cheese is I think a top tier, top shelf burger. They reformulated it like a few years ago, so now it's made with fresh beef, and it's seared to

order and when you... What was the other option besides fresh beef? Frozen. All their other burgers are made with frozen burger patties but the quarter pounders are fresh beef and they're cooked to order unless you get them at an airport in which case they almost never are but they come out like kind of you know legitimately juicy they've got a nice crust on them they are seasoned well. There is that sort of nostalgic McDonald's like like, you know, every burger kind of tastes like ketchup and pickles thing going on. But I think a quarter pounder of cheese is a legitimately good burger. Anyhow, today we're talking about burgers and we're going to find out that Deb doesn't

really like burgers. I actually only like one kind of burger. Wow. And it doesn't even have cheese on it. I don't feel that the cheese adds to the experience. We're going to have some words today. I'm ready. From PRX's Radiotopia, this is the recipe with Kenji and Deb.

Where we help you discover your own perfect recipes. Kenji is the author of The Food Lab and The Wok and a columnist for The New York Times. And Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen. She's also the author of three best-selling cookbooks. We've been professional recipe developers for nearly two decades, and we've got the same basic goal, to make recipes that work for you and to make you excited to get into the kitchen. But we've got really different approaches, and on this show, we'll cook and talk about

each other's recipes, comparing notes to see what we can learn from each other. Today on the recipe we're talking about burgers. Kenji, do you know a lot about the history of a burger? I know a fair amount. I mean, I used to run a column called the Burger Lab in which we explored burger varieties, burger styles, and burger history. I do have a whole section of burger books on my library shelf. The interesting thing about burgers is that a bunch of people will claim to have invented

it. There was Charlie Nagreen, who was in Wisconsin, who supposedly invented the very first burger in 1885. But the way he invented it was taking a meatball and kind of smashing it down and putting it between two slices of bread, which I would say is not really a burger. That's a smashed meatball sandwich. That sounds like the perfect burger to me. Oh boy, I'm in so much trouble in this episode. And then there's a couple other people around, you know, at the end of the 19th century who claimed to have invented the burger, they were all sort of similarly non-burgerish items.

Then there's Louis Lassen, 1900 in New Haven, Connecticut, opened a place called Louis' Lunch. That place is still operating now. It's in a different location. They picked up the restaurant and moved it. It's in a different location, but they still cook their burgers on the same device that they use to cook the original burgers, which is this vertical Cast iron griddle So it's like this vertical cage that you stick a piece of that you stick a burger patty into and there are flames that go

Up and down either side of it. So it's good gets kind of sideways However, it's served on two slices of toast And so I would also argue that is not a burger. And they're very militant about their toppings, that you can get onions on them. There's no ketchup. If you try and sneak ketchup into the restaurant, they will kick you out because they claim that there was no ketchup on the original hamburger. However, you can get cheese whiz on your burger, which was not invented until the 70s, I believe,

maybe the 60s. So I don't know how that all fits together, but it's an okay tasting sandwich. You can go and get it still. It's in New Haven, Connecticut. If you go there, I think it's the third generation of the family still owns it. The first time I went there, I was talking to, I believe it was Louis Lassen's granddaughter who said that they served the best burger in the world. And I said, how do you know that? And she said, because I haven't eaten another burger in over 40 years. That's cute.

Which I, again, I didn't quite follow the logic of, but anyhow, I personally would argue that the hamburger is not a hamburger without a proper burger bun. I would argue that the hamburger as we know it today was invented by White Castle. Interesting. So White Castle, Wichita, Kansas, 1921, they invented the soft squishy hamburger bun as a means of conveying a meat patty to your mouth. Were they always square? They were always square, yeah. The original White Castles were always square. So if you go to White Castle now, you'll find that they have each patty is square and it has five little holes poked out of it, like that looks like it was poked out with a straw and that so the original patties were just square the holes were added later

on by an enterprising employee who was probably not paid for this invention but they realized that oh if you poke a little hole out with a straw then the onion steam gets through the burger faster and it cooks faster so you can cut down your wait time on the burgers and so yeah White Castle invented the slider and I would argue invented the very first modern hamburger. When did McDonald's come along? I believe it was 1940. And McDonald's came along with the rise

of car culture in California. The whole idea of a drive-through and having this sort of like real rigid system where you can drive across the country and get the identical burger at every location was a McDonald's thing. McDonald's was started by the McDonald's brothers, but then Ray Croc who bought the concept from them and developed it into sort of the franchise. There was a movie about it with Michael Keaton, you know, it was called The Founder, came

out a few years ago. It was about how, you know, the cutthroat world of fast food restaurants. It was like the Wolf of Wall Street for hamburgers. So tell us about your ideal burger. Can we even call it a burger? Exactly. Well, I think as you might've noted, I only had one burger recipe on my site and it's the fake shack burger.

Which is a clone of a Shake Shack burger. Exactly, as close as I can get at home. In fact, honestly, it's often better because it's going be right like you Well, if you need it right away You're not waiting for the rest of your order to be ready before you get to eat it But yes on smittenkitchen.com you have a single burger recipe and it's a clone of an existing burger Exactly because can't you you're sitting down. I actually don't like most hamburgers

I have so many issues with burgers. Like, why are they so big? They aren't all so big. They are like the really thick ones at taverns. I don't understand that. Am I like a snake? Am I supposed to unhinge my jaw to like eat this? It doesn't make any sense.

They're too big. You're essentially saying that burgers that are too big, right? Yes. But not all burgers are too big. I think there was just several years in New York where every burger that was ever written up, I would go and try it and it was just ridiculous.

Like they were too thick. This is the post Daniel Balloud. Yes. But even like the Corner Bistro one, I found it to be too big. Corner Bistro is not a good burger. I will die on that hill. It's dry, it's under seasoned. I know George moats loves it. And he says, there's some magic

about getting it to go because the, when you wrap it up in paper and let it sit there, you know, it all melds together. But I've always found corner bistro to be pretty dry and like tragically dry and under seasoned. That's basically the way I feel about a lot of burgers that were super popular at the time. I mean, I mean, Cordon B's just been around forever, but I just, I didn't get the hype. And then one day I tried a Smashburger. Where was your first Smashburger? It might have been, I don't even remember. I don't think it was Shake Shack first, but I feel like after that I found that I really liked the Shake Shack one. I was gonna say that if you're in New York City, it's very

likely that your first Smashburger was Shake Shack, because I don't think they they weren't really a style, that wasn't say that if you're in New York City, it's very likely that your first Smash Burger was Shake Shack. Cause I don't think they weren't really a style, that wasn't really a style that existed in New York. Smash Burgers were sort of the original burger, you know, like how a lot of the places in the Midwest do it. Steak and Shake, which Shake Shack was modeled after, is a Midwest chain that is really known for their Smash Burgers.

But Smash Burgers are sort of the, yeah, were sort of the standard way to cook burgers. But for some reason, they never really made it to New York. So in New York in the, until Shake Shack opened in the, uh, in the late two thousands, most burgers in New York were either sort of fast food. You had a couple of like thinner places, but then a lot of them were these kind of, yeah, corner bistro restaurant pub style burgers that were thicker. Danielle Pletka Just ridiculous to eat with too much stuff on them and like not even just not classic enough to me. I just feel like it's really messy to eat like you pick it up and you take a bite and like it's great that it's juicy

but you can barely get your jaw around it and then it's like messy. When I tried Smash Burgers I was like this to me is the correct burger. I love the way you get those different edges to it. I love the way you get those sort of crispy bits. I like the way it's a little salted at the edges. There's texture. It doesn't have that even discs thing that a lot of fast food burgers does. And it doesn't have that overly thick, just too much

of everything that a lot of bistro and fancy restaurant burgers have. So for me, it was perfect. It was the beginning and end of burgers for me. And I do try burgers elsewhere, but I rarely, I always come back to the Smash Burger. Smash burgers are absolutely my favorite way to cook burgers and my favorite way to eat burgers.

And I love a good Smash Burger. There's a lot of mediocre Smash Burgers out there, but there's some very good ones. Should we briefly describe what a Smash Burger is? Just in case there's anybody who doesn't know what they are right now. So smash burgers, you don't make a patty out of your beef. You take your ground beef, you make like a ball or a puck out of it and you place it on a hot griddle and then you smash it down.

And if you're doing it properly, you smash it down until the edges are almost like a micron thick, you know? So you get these like really crispy, lacy edges. It smears across the griddle. The griddle is ungreased, because you kind of want the patty to stick there until it's ready to release, and then you scrape it up. You could do it with a really sharp scraper.

At the restaurants that I've put Smash Burgers on the menu at, we use the Shake Shack technique, which is to use a razor scraper. So it's a razor blade. If you go to Home Depot and get a wallpaper remover, that's essentially the tool you're using to scrape the patties off the grill. Get it all up. I love it. I like to put the puck down, maybe wait 20 seconds and then smash it. I feel like you get extra edges that way. Another thing I love about smash burgers is that you can really make them well at home. As long as you don't mind smoking up your kitchen a bit. It's very reliable. You can make them as good at home as you can get them anywhere.

You do need like really high heat and you need a couple of specialized tools, I think. Like you need a real stiff spatula. Yes. I actually use flexible fish spatulas for almost everything. I love how thin they are. But you smash a burger with a slugging? No, I don't smash it with that. Oh, okay. I use that for picking it up.

No, I actually have one of those like meat pounders that sort of looks like a, I don't know, it looks like a weight. I don't think I've actually ever pounded meat with it. And I only have used it for like everything else from smashing certain cookies down to like smashing meatballs into something. I tend to use it for everything but what it was meant for. But I'll use that to squish it down. Okay.

And or a heavier spatula. But for lifting things, I feel like you can not go wrong with a flexible fish spatula because they really work for so many things. I find that I don't get enough leverage with this. Like it's a little bit too flexible. So I can't scrape up as much of the smashed edges as I want. I generally use a griddle and a trowel, like a mortaring trowel,

the kind that you would use to put spackle on your wall. I use that to smash my burger and then I use a razor scraper to get it up. I do have a griddle for my stove, but I usually use just a cast iron, my largest cast iron pan, which is 12 inches, and then I get it ripping hot. I like almost always advise people

not to use cast iron for smashed burgers. How come? Because cast iron is too which is 12 inches. And then I get it ripping hot. I like almost always advise people not to use cast iron for smash burgers. How come? Because cast iron is too nonstick. I want a really sticky surface. I'll use stainless steel because I want the burger to be able to like smash out to a really thin layer without pulling back on itself.

And I find when I use cast iron, the patty sticks to itself more than it sticks to the pan. I don't get that, like that real smooth sheath of crispy beef, which is what I want. But yeah, there's different, there are different fast smash. I don't feel like I've ever missed out on that, but I like using tools I already have.

So for me, it works perfectly. I feel like it's one of those great all purpose things. Like everybody should have a 12 inch cast iron skillet. I like the Wells. Some might contain the splattering, although you're basically gonna be wiping down everything when you're done. The mess is the biggest issue making a smash burger at home.

But the fact that you can get them to taste so good right out of the skillet and you don't need special equipment for it. You do wanna use the right beef for it. I don't know what your favorite is, but I always use an 80 20 for it. You want the fat because you want it to render out and help cook it and sizzle in the pan.

Well, it's also because the burgers are so thin, you know, like Shake Shack, they use four ounce patties. At restaurants I've opened, I use two ounce patties and I'll double up the burger. And other fast food places would generally go between two to three ounces of meat per patty. Because the idea with a Smash Burger is that you're kind of maximizing the amount of Maillard browning. And so it's really much more about the crust than it is about like a pink and juicy interior. You're not going to get much of a pink and juicy interior on a smashed patty unless you're doing a really big one. So I do the four ounce like Shake Shack does.

Okay. And I like that I get some crispy edges. Yeah, I get a little bit of that. And some of the edges are just from the flattening of kind of like this meatball shape. As you start it and then you're pushing it down. So I like, the edges for me are more at the edges around the sides and then the center is a little more classic burger, but still thin enough that it's not crazy to take a bite of it.

In fact, I feel like it's the, I do a single burger. I feel like that's an unpopular opinion. People love doubles, but I think it's the perfect serving size, like where it hits the spot. I found four ounces to be perfect. Even places where people do smaller patties, like if I go to In-N-Out, I generally get a single, even though people often get double doubles there.

But I find a double patty is often too much for me. But what I do like to do is make two really small patties, so like two two-ounce patties, quarter pound of beef total, and then stack them together with one slice of cheese in between. Only once, you do not put a slice of cheese between each burger. You could do it on top,

but generally I do one slice of cheese in between. Yeah, so the whole thing is kind of like glued together with cheese. There's this burger place, it's closed now, but it used to be in Ann Arbor called Blimpie Burger. Real old school place, they did smash burgers, but they would smash the crap out of them until they were almost like falling apart on the griddle. I talked to one of the grill cooks there about that process and his quote, which I love,

is like, yeah, our burgers are kind of held together with hope and American cheese. That sounds delicious, actually. Although, is this a safe place to tell you? I don't think there's ever, there's never gonna be a safe place for this. I don't really like cheese on my burgers. I don't like cheeseburgers. I really, I love the edges.

I love the crisp. I love the contrast. And I feel like the richness of the cheese muddles it. Wow. I know. What are your feelings on American cheese muddles it. Wow. I know. What are your feelings on American cheese? Love it, actually, I'm proud. You love it, okay.

I believe that cheese should properly melt and I don't mind it, I don't need some bougie cheese on a burger at all and I don't hate the taste of it, but I'm not choosing it. Wow. No, I find, especially for a smash burger, where if you're getting them real thin,

there's not much juiciness left in that patty, that the cheese is really sort of an essential texture element. Like for me, the gooeyness of American cheese and that tiny bit of tang and salt that it brings is a real essential part of the whole burger experience. Yeah, I never order burgers with cheese. I won't, again, I'm not anti-cheese.

I won't not eat it, but it doesn't, there's something about it. It doesn't add. I feel like it detracts from the texture. I won't not eat it, but it doesn't, there's something about it. It doesn't add. I feel like it detracts from the texture. I also like, and we're gonna get into topics, I like crunchy topics. I like the slice of onion. I love the iceberg.

I love the tomato. I want it a little bit salted. So I want that like hot, crispy edged, like craggy bit burger against those crunchy, almost salty acidity on the burger. I want that contrast. And then I do like a creamy kind of called shack sauce, but like a burger sauce, one of those things that's like the mixture of the ketchup, then the, you know, like a little bit of everything in there. So that's where I want the creaminess, but right against the burger, I like crisp things against it.

Interesting. I was going to ask you, the cousin of the Smash Burger, the Oklahoma Onion Burger, what's your experience with those? Where you do the griddle onions? So, an Oklahoma Onion Burger, you smash your burger with a big pile of very thinly shaved onions on top of it. So, you smash it all together so the onions are kind of embedded in the meat, and then you scrape it up and flip it over and the onions then cook underneath. So, you get onions that end up frying in the beef fat, but some of them are sort of embedded in the meat, and then you scrape it up and flip it over, and the onions then cook underneath. So you get, I mean, you get onions

that end up frying in the beef fat, but some of them are sort of caramelized, some of them are kind of just steamed, and then some of them are almost raw in the center, and then some of them are like really dark and crispy and craggly around the edges. Is that what George does at Hamburger America? Because I've had it there. It is, yes.

And it's very good. I do like it, but if we're talking classic burger, if somebody wants to make that, it sounds good, but to me it's a very specific thing, where it's just like, I do like it. But if we're talking classic burger, if somebody wants to make that, it sounds good. But to me, it's a very specific thing. We're just like, I guess if I were to have a second burger recipe, maybe it would be that. But in general, for me, a classic burger, smash burger, no cheese. So what is your ride and die burger?

Like the one you're going to make at home when you're craving a burger? Like, is it going to be a smash burger? It'll be a smash burger. Is it going to be? Okay. If I'm cooking and there's more than me here, if there's like a couple of people, it'll probably be a smash burger. If it's just myself, I have this recipe called, I called it the best burger for a single man or woman or non-binary.

You grind the meat yourself, you know, you can do it in a food processor or in a meat grinder, or you can chop it by hand. And then you, once it's ground, you don't really touch it again. You kind of like very loosely form it into a patty shape. And then you very carefully lift that up and lay it in a pan. So the meat is very loose and you put it in and you cook it in a pan. That's just big enough to hold the patty. Right.

So that's why it's like, it doesn't work if you do a ton of them. So you hold it in a cooking pan is just big enough to hold the patty. So as the fat renders out, it ends up kind of deep frying in its own fat. And because you packed it so loosely, it has all these really, really crispy, craggly edges. So it's more texture than you get out of a smash burger because it's not flat. It's like really craggly.

I think you have to demo that one. I have a video of it. It's you get to. If you go to my YouTube channel, there's a video. There's also a recipe on Serious Eats for free and on my Patreon for free. But you flip it over and then I put really thinly sliced onions on top, directly on top of the patty,

and then a slice of cheese on top of that and let that all kind of melt together. And so the cheese melts over the onions and the onions soften a little bit and kind of the burger steam. And then you put it on a patty and you put it in a bun. I do pickles and special sauce and that's it. Do you always do onion then cheese? Not always. Just for that one? Just for that one. I don't see that very often, except for when you, that Oklahoma style

burger you mentioned, that sounds really good. I want to see that. That's right. That one would be, well, that one would end up with onions, burger, then cheese. What kind of meat are you grinding? I mean, obviously beef, but like, how do you know which piece of, which four ounce piece of beef? Years ago on Serious Eats, I did this whole, I did like a series of taste tests.

We called them burger varietals, where we took all the different cuts of the steer and ground them and then tasted them individually. So the sort of ultimate burger blend that I came up with there is a mix of chuck short rib and oxtail. Oh no, sorry, sirloin, sirloin brisket and oxtail. Interesting, I was gonna say,

I was thinking like ribeye and short rib, but yeah. I mean, rib eye is great on its own, but it's not, I think it's better as a steak. So sirloin brisket has a sort of minerally bright flavor to it. Sirloin is a sort of like neutral base that just provides good texture. And then the oxtail is like really rich, really fatty, has like a really intense, it's, oxtails are like the flavor of short ribs, uh, times 10. That said, like oxtails are really a pain in the butt to bone out. You don't get much meat out of them.

And I just do that when you're having your single guy burger. Yeah. So, so generally, like if I'm going to do it just on my own, the simplest way is just straight up Chuck, which is balanced on its own. But I might do a mix of short ribs and brisket. If I was going to start blending, making like a, you know, a cuvée, a beef cuvée. and brisket if I was gonna start blending, making like a, you know, a cuvee, a beef cuvee. What do you think people get wrong the most

when they make burgers at home? For me, I would say, I think we're salting it at the wrong time. I'm definitely of the don't salt the meat, just salt the outside of the burger as you're cooking it. I feel like it makes a huge difference. You could probably explain it chemically. I can just tell you it tastes better. It's also like a textural thing that if you salt your meat before forming the patties

or before grinding the meat, you end up making like a sauce that like the salt will dissolve from the proteins. And so that when they, when you're actually forming the patties, they, the proteins bind together and you end up with something that's like a little sort of rubbery or unbouncier. I just did a video actually on my YouTube channel for that, that burger that I was just talking about. There's a video where demonstrated this by like hurling burger patties against a tray

and showing you that like when you pre-salt your meat before you make the patties, it kind of bounce off like a rubber ball. Whereas if you salt only the outside of the burger, they like smash and splatter. It makes a real big difference texturally, whether you salt at the beginning or just before cooking. What else do you think people get wrong when they make them at home?

People are convinced that you need to add stuff to your burgers, add chopped onion. Like Julia Child even has like breadcrumbs and egg and chopped onions and chopped parsley. That's the meatball. That's a meatball sandwich or a meatloaf sandwich. Yeah, exactly. Like for me, a burger should be just ground beef,

seasoned and cooked. And anything else in there kind of alters the texture and alters the flavor. For me, like a classic burger is just ground beef. I think in general people just like futzing with the meat too much is you feel like you have to do a lot but really like the less you touch it the less you do to it the hotter you cook it the better it's gonna be. When we come back from the break we're gonna talk about burger buns, toppings

and sauces. How do you feel about the fact that so many burger buns these days, Chains and restaurants, they're a little sweet. You know, like the brioche, the potato buns. These are not, it's not just about the, you know, the fat in them. Yeah. I mean, I think that was sort of a, you know, like a Martin's potato buns thing. Martin's is the company out of Pennsylvania that supplies Shake Shack with all their buns. I think they have a pretty sweet bun. They became pretty popular. I feel like a McDonald's bun, which has been around for a long time,

is also pretty sweet. Yeah, we always put sugar and white bread in America anyway. We do, yeah, yeah. I honestly don't mind it too much. I even sometimes like making burgers on like a Hawaiian roll, which is even intentionally even sweeter. I find sweetness works pretty well in a burger. Are you familiar with the Luther burger?

No. A Luther burger is a burger that's served on a griddled glazed donut instead of a bun. No, stop. I think it's really good. Well, I can't yuck it because I haven't tried it and I do love donuts. I just, I don't want this. People put bacon on the burgers and bacon is often paired with sugar also. There's sweet things like ketchup is sweet for eight year olds. No, I like ketchup on my burger too. Burger sauces also are almost inevitably have some amount of sugar in them also. I don't think it's unusual to have a sweetness.

Pickled relish is sweet. There's all kinds of sweet things that go well on a burger, I think. That's in particular why I like the contrast of, I love slices go well on a burger, I think. And that's in particular why I like the contrast. I love slices of pickle on a burger. I like one decently salted burger. That's where I want the contrast because the bun is often gonna be sweet and I wanna make sure that the whole thing

doesn't become sweet. What is the ideal burger bun for you? I really don't mind Martin's, although there's been several conversations about their political donations over the last several years and there's a lot of alternatives So another potato roll at or Hawaiian roll works well, too I don't terribly mind a brioche roll depending if it's good and not too heavy

I don't know that I've always preferred a sweet bun, but I've gotten used to it over the years So now it tastes good to me or that's the way I think is as long as the other ingredients are adjusted. And for me, I wouldn't want another very sweet topping on there. It depends on the type of burger. So if it's like a bigger, thicker burger, then you know, you need a kind of heftier bun. But I prefer a more slender, you know, two to four ounce burger. And for me, yeah, like the crappier and the whiter it is, the better, you know, it's like a wonder bread bun is perfectly fine for me, you know, or the supermarket brand burger bun. I feel like the bun, you want it to kind of just

hold the burger there, but almost turn to nothing in your mouth for me, like nothing but a little bit of sweetness and maybe like a little sort of mushiness. How important is the absorbency of the bun? Because I'm thinking of this thing with a burger, like a really good burger, we always, a good burger is juicy, right?

And so if it's juicy, when you bite into it, it's going to- Squish out some of that juice behind you. Squish out some of that juice. Do we want the burger bun to catch it all, or do we want it running off? I feel like real burger fiends love the messiness, and I hate the messiness running down my arm.

For me, like a burger bun, if it's falling apart, that's okay as long as it like is falling apart by the last bite. If my last bite of burger is just like a piece of bun that's like saturated in beef fat and barely holding together, that's fine. What I don't want is a burger bun that's gonna fall apart before.

Like I don't wanna pick up a burger bun and have like the back half of the burger bun, bottom bun fall off and like toppings spill out. There needs to be enough arch support to hold the toppings in place on the burger bun, bottom bun fall off and like topping spill out. There needs to be enough arch support to hold the toppings in place on the burger. How do you prepare your buns? So for me, it's like you can toast them, you can griddle them in butter or you could steam them.

Steaming, interesting. I like to just griddle them in some butter in the pan. Since I'm making a smash burger, I already have the pan out. I usually start with a pad of butter in the pan, very carefully brown them. I keep the hinge intact. I usually start with a pad of butter in the pan, very carefully brown them. I keep the hinge intact. I don't know if I'm supposed to, but I keep the

burger, if it comes with a hinge. If it comes hinged, yeah. If it comes hinged, I keep it hinged. I do not unhinge it. So yeah, so I usually do two at a time. I'm usually making burgers for the four of us. So I'm making four burgers. So I'll do two at a time in my 12 inch skillet,

right as I'm heating it up, I'll put a pad of butter and do two at a time. So 12 inch skillet, right as I'm heating it up, I'll put a pat of butter and do two at a time. So I love that buttery taste and the little crisp. And you gotta have everything ready to go too. You gotta have that burger bun toasted, all your toppings ready. You cannot wait till the burger's ready to get those things ready.

Yes, burger patties cannot sit around and wait. And sizzling right out of the pan. Sometimes like at cafeterias or like even at backyard barbecues, like when there's no sort of, people are kind of milling around and just waiting on stuff. You know, you had that uncle who would cook burger patties and you'd cook like a bunch of them and then they'd stick them on a plate and then you just have to come and like

retrieve your burger patty and stick it onto a bun and then add a slice of cold cheese. It's just like, it's just not a fun way to eat burgers. Yeah, I know, I agree. Your burger, all the toppings, the patty, the bun should be toasted and ready to go Everything should be ready to go before you get the actual burger patty because you want it to be hot Have you never steamed a burger bun? No, I haven't so I see really put it over a steamer like in a steamer basket

So like the classic way is if you're making a slider, right? Where you're where you have like a bed of onions and you have the beef on top of it You place the bat you place the patties directly on top of the meat and onions on the griddle. If you've been to White Manor in Jersey, right across the river, so the way they do it there, they put onions down, they put their meat down, they put the onions, and then you put the top bun down on top of the patty and then the bottom bun down on top of the top bun, and then all that onion steam and beef steam kind of goes up, you know, wafts up and saturates

the buns so they get really soft. And you pick the whole stack up, you know, wafts up and saturates the buns so they get really soft. And you pick the whole stack up, you take the bottom bun off, put it underneath the spatula and then squeeze it out and kind of like slide it out and you end up with an assembled burger. But that's sort of the classic way to do it, to do a slider.

There's a restaurant in Portland called Canard, which makes, they make steamed hamburgers. And the way they do there is they actually like, they'll fully assemble their burgers first, so they cook their burgers on a little flat top. They'll fully assemble them, and then they stick them into a steamer, the whole thing steamed so that all of it kind of gets really

soft and squishy and delicious. There's a place in Detroit, it's a, one of the classic slider spots in Detroit. They'll do that same thing with the meat and the onions and the burger, and the buns stacked on top. And then they have a towel that they drape over like a flat top full of stacked burgers so that the towel kind of traps in that onion steam. At home, I have what I call my onion towel.

Oh, really? Because you do it once. Yeah. You don't want to use that towel for anything else. You do it once and the onion will, and the towel will smell like onion forever. If you wanted to do this technique at home, you need a dedicated onion towel. I've never tried it, but now I want to go back to White Manna. It's been years.

I haven't been forever. White Manna is great. White Blank as a burger restaurant name, those all stem from White Castle. So White Castle, the reason they named themselves that was because the book The Jungle had recently come out. And in that book, he talks about how workers in a meatpacking facility in Chicago would fall into the meat grinders and they would just get ground into the burgers. And so people had this really negative view of ground meat and that it was dirty and unsafe.

White Castle called themselves White Castle because they wanted people to associate their restaurant with cleanliness and security. All their walls were white so that you could see any, there was no messiness at all. It was all gleaming and clean. And it worked really well. And so after that, a whole bunch of places started calling themselves white blank. And then what are your ideal toppings? I know about some burger purists that don't like a lot of toppings, but I actually, I

love a few. I love the lettuce. I love the lettuce, I love the tomato, I love the thin-shaped onions, I love pickles if they have them. I want all of the crunchy, acidic, cold stuff. So for me, it depends on the type of burger, but I am sort of a purist where if it's like a really good, well-seared patty and I know that there's gonna be like

a lot of good beef flavor in there. First of all, I do bottomings, not toppings. I stack everything on my bottom bun and then put the burger on top of that. I find it... Why? It holds together better. Like the top bun doesn't slide around. The meat kind of holds the toppings in place. I find that when you bite into it... That's so weird. When you bite into it. So I also eat my burgers upside down. I don't know if you pick them

up and you rotate your hands and so they flip over as you eat. Just put your toppings on right side up and eat the burger right side up. You could, but it just falls apart that way, I find. Anyway, pickles and onions are my base. If I'm gonna have anything. Raw or griddled onions? Raw onions and pickles. If I go to In-N-Out, I get onions two ways, so raw and griddled.

I get my onion griddled whole, so I take one slice of onion, like a disc of onion, and then have them cook that on the flat Top just sauteed onions versus sauteed onions. Yeah Yeah I think that's preferable if you're gonna griddle them too because otherwise they get a little too soft and caramelized tasting and I'm not looking for the sweetness Caramelized onions can be good on a burger. It's like pickles and onions are my minimum and then sometimes Yeah, sometimes I like lettuce like shredded iceberg is great on a burger

Oh, I actually prefer a sheet or two. Really? Like In-N-Out does like a half head of lettuce on there and I think that's really good. I love shredders and again, if I'm doing it, I would put it underneath the patty so that you get like that vinaigrette of beef juices that season. So you are pro lettuce and onion. How do you feel about tomato? Again, it depends on the type of burger.

So if it's like a big fat juicy burger, then I want like a big fat juicy tomato, you know, like a summer tomato. But I'm also okay with a sorta not great supermarket tomato or like a slice of Roma tomato when it's off season and when the burger, you know, when it becomes more of like an acidic crunchy element. Yeah, as long as it's not mealy.

It can be firm and a little like not, it can be not as juicy as I like a tomato to be a fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity, fruity,. Yeah, so like a little bit of pickle juice,

a little bit of mayo, mustard, ketchup, little cayenne or hot sauce. Sometimes I do grated onions in there and a little touch of sugar. McDonald's, their Big Mac sauce, which I really like, is a mayo and mustard base, which I think is also really good. I want mayo with a little bit of other flavors in there

and I want it to be kind of tangy and a little bit sweet. Baltimore jarred mayos are sweet. The regular mayo itself is very good. It's like nice and acidic and sort of bright tasting, but there's flavored ones. So there's one that's flavored with hot Jardinera that's like actually spicy and tangy, has like big chunks of pickled vegetables and stuff in it.

There's a dill pickle one that is like very seriously dilly. Nice. Also it's like a tartar sauce, but like really intense. And then there's one with mustard, like a mustard mayo thing that's like. Okay. I see mustard. Yeah, they're all real good. For mustard mayo, I don't mind it, but for me, it really has to be like a Dijon mustard.

It can't be like a ballpark mustard. There's a very certain specific, like I want that more piercing, a ballpark mustard. There's a very certain specific, like I want that more piercing, clean, maybe like slightly whiny flavor profile versus the ballpark yellow paint flavor. in your life that you love that kind of goes against all of your preferences, but you still just for some reason love it. I will say if I'm hungry enough, like if I'm, you know, if you're like book tour, I agree with traveling all day and you've absolutely not eaten and it's 8pm and you could like murder anything for food, that would be probably the time that I would tolerate the thicker, juicier burger from a bistro that I normally don't like. You and I both love these smash burgers. We use griddles inside. Although you can put a cast iron pan on a, there are

definitely pans that you can cook. Or you can have a flat top grill, which are so popular. Those block stone grills are amazing. You can just place a griddle on directly on a charcoal or gas grill and cook on it. I think, I think that is the best way to cook burgers outside. I was saying, yes, you can make smash burgers outside, but I was gonna say as we head into the summer months and the summer holidays, most people in America are going to put a preformed grill burger patty on a grill in a backyard

and probably cook the daylights out of it. It's like the taste of summer, it's the smell of summer. It is, and for some people there's this nostalgia to that kind of like overcooked burger off the backyard grill. But if there was any, I wanna like impart some advice about like how you think we could maybe improve it for people who are, who wanna make it

a little bit better this summer. First of all, make your patty a little bit wider than your burger bun because it's gonna shrink. Thin, so not super thick. And then I cook it about 90% on one side, on the first side. Put it on the grill and just leave it there on the first side until it's almost all the way cooked

through and then the second side just cook a little bit because I find you actually get a lot more browning and a lot more flavor if you just let it cook on that first side than you would if you flip it over and you get kind of mediocre browning on two sides. I cook it unilaterally, you know, just cook it almost all the way through on one side and then just let that second side cook just until it's not pink anywhere.

And then that way you get not overcooked meat, you know? So you get like a really nice crust on one side and then you get sort of nice juicy meat on the other side. Yeah, that would be my advice. Cook your burgers, let them sit for a really long time and then only cook the second side a little bit. And salt them as you're cooking them and not before. Salt them just before cooking. Yeah, don't salt the meat before forming the patties. And don't let grandpa overcook them. I'm the one who's walking by like, I think that's

done. I think it's already dead. It's like, stop killing it again. It's really, you really have to like decide who's going to do the grilling or that's like, stop killing it again. It's really, you really have to like decide who's gonna do the grilling or that's how it is in our family. ["The Gourmet Show"] Kenji, can you waffle a burger? Yeah. I feel like you could waffle a burger bun

and you could waffle a burger patty and you could stick it all together and then you'd have a waffled burger. Yeah. Okay. I also think like a burger patty stuck in between stick it all together and then you'd have a waffle burger. I also think like a burger patty stuck in between two waffles would be really delicious. You know, I really balked at the donut, but I feel like there's something about the waffle

that I feel like I could work with it. All right, can you taco a burger? I don't know why you would. Oh my goodness, the other day I was at a restaurant in Moab in Utah, a burger place called Milt's and I had a burger. My daughter is not a big burger fan, but she wanted a taco. And so she ordered two ground beef tacos

and the ground beef tacos were literally a burger patty that had been cooked the same way as the other burgers and then cut in half, like a half moon, you know, and then stuck into a tortilla with lettuce and pico de gallo. I think you can successfully taco a burger if you do it smartly. So does a burger leftover? I personally do not want to eat a leftover burger, but I guess you could.

I would eat it cold. I wouldn't reheat it, but no, burgers are not good leftover. Can you cook it in a pan with butter? Yeah, I wouldn't, but you could. Can you get a cheeseburger out of children's clothing? Beef fat is real hard to get out of clothing because it's got such a high melting temperature. Beef fat is one of those splatters that once it gets into your clothing,

it kind of leaves a permanent little oiled spot. It's not fun at all. I think I've said this before, I try to use dish soap to get it out. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, like dawn, but don't always know if it's gonna work until it's often too late to fix it. So we have some news for you about the recipe.

And that is that this is our second to last episode for now. We're going to be back with a mailbag episode in two weeks. But then after that, we are going to be taking a little break. The break is for a good reason. It's not because we hate each other or because we don't love doing the show. Or because I don't put cheese on my burgers. Sorry.

It's because Deb and I are both working on new cookbooks. Yay. The development process for cookbooks can be hard to predict. So we're not sure when we're going to be back. But we are full of surprises, so we might pop back in here out of the blue. We might pop in for some guest episodes or from some special episodes. At some point, we will be back full time.

We can tell you that while we're gone, our fellow Radiotopians Rishikesh Hirway and Simeen Nasrat are going to be back with their amazing show, Home Cooking, late summer, so be sure to subscribe to their show as well. The recipe is created and co-hosted by Deb Perlman and Kenji Lopez-Alt. Our producers are Jocelyn Gonzalez, Perry Gregory, and Pedro Rafael Rosado of PRX Productions. Yuri Lasordo is the managing producer. Emmanuel Johnson is the audience engagement manager.

And the executive producer for Radiotopia is Audrey Martavich. Thanks for listening. The recipe with Kenji and Deb is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator-owned, listener-supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at radiotopia.fm.