The Recipe with Kenji and Deb - Take a Break with Home Cooking

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Deb and Kenji are taking a break this week. Please enjoy this classic episode from Home Cooking, our fellow Radiotopia show about food.****************************** According to our callers, a big part of Thanksgiving seems to be making food for your loved ones that you only kind of like yourself. But can we make these dishes a little better for the people cooking them?! We’re gonna try. Plus, Demi Adejuyigbe (@electrolemon), tells about his quarantine baking adventures.For recipes, transcripts, and more, visit homecooking.show/12.

We're excited to tell you about another great podcast called The Splendid Table. For almost 30 years, The Splendid Table has been bringing people together through the common language of food. Hosted every week by the James Beard award-winning writer, my friend, Francis Lam, they bring us fresh voices and surprising insights at the intersection of food, people, and culture. Everything from the local food scene in Los Angeles to the impact of TikTok on what we eat, to how to make a perfect hard-boiled egg. We've both been guests on the show, so you can start by checking out our episodes. You can find the Splendid Table in your favorite podcast app.

Hi, this is Audrey. I'm the executive producer of Radiotopia, and it's November, so it is approaching a very busy holiday food season. And so Deb and Kenji are actually taking a little break from the pod this week. So I just wanted to pop in to share an episode of a very special show from Radiotopia also about food. It's called Home Cooking. Home Cooking was a pandemic project from Samin Nasrat of the iconic salt-fat acid heat. And she also happens to be a really close personal friend of

Rishi Kesh Hirway, creator and host of Song Exploder, also from Radiotopia. And so during the pandemic, the two of them came together and they made this show where listeners would submit their food conundrums and Samin and Rishi would try to solve them. And honestly, Samin is mostly kind of trying to solve them and Rishi is mostly just trying to make Samin laugh, but it is delightful. You are going to love it. I'm going to share the first part of a two-parter about Thanksgiving, which is very relevant to us people in the United States right now. And I would venture to say that a lot of you out there might find Thanksgiving maybe a little stressful. I promise this episode will melt those worries away.

You will be begging for Thanksgiving because you might just cancel your Thanksgiving plans and stay home and binge home cooking. Please enjoy here's part one of a Thanksgiving special from home Cooking. Of all of the processed foods to bring to your Thanksgiving table, cranberry sauce is like the least processed. It's not filled with like 99 jellos. Yeah, you've got 99 jellos. I feel bad for you son.

I've got 99 jellos. Cranberry's not one. What is even happening? I'm Samin Nasrat. And I'm Rishi K. Sherwe. Cranberries not one. What is even happening? I'm Samin Nasrat. And I'm Rishi K. Sherwe. And we're home cooking.

This is episode 12 of our four part series and part one of a two part series within that four part series dedicated to Thanksgiving and how the heck we're gonna do all the Thanksgiving things this year. Wow, that was a lot of math. We're gonna talk about some of our own Thanksgiving recipes in part two, but for now, we've got a lot of questions to get through. So just like Thanksgiving dinner, let's get

into it way too early. Okay. I mean, like normally I eat dinner at 730. Thanksgiving dinner starts at like 330. Two. Yeah. Some people start at 11 a.m. Wow. Yeah. On Thanksgiving, there are no rules. There's no rules, except there are a lot of people who have a a.m. Wow. Yeah.

On Thanksgiving, there are no rules. There's no rules, except there are a lot of people who have a lot of rules. That's the thing. Yeah. But maybe one of the rules in your house is that you can start eating dinner at 11 a.m. Totally. My rule, unfortunately, I mean, this is the opposite of a rule, is that I end up cooking all day and tasting so much that by the time it's time to sit down, I'm like sick to my

stomach. Oh yeah. The actual act of eating on Thanksgiving is- Is punishment. Also, it's like day three of being on vacation. I've also eaten like seven layer dip. Yeah, exactly. So I've planned out our questions to follow roughly the order of a meal, I think. And so I want to start with an appetizer.

Or maybe this counts as a side, I'm not really sure. But this question comes from Anna. My question revolves around the classic green bean casserole. So I live in Brooklyn now, but originally from Wisconsin, and I don't think I've ever had a Thanksgiving at home where this hasn't been present. And it's delicious, but I always have the sense that it could be even more delicious and perhaps a little bit more wholesome.

So my understanding of how it's made, which is usually done by my mom or grandmother, is a can of cream of mushroom soup goes into what I assume are frozen green beans and probably some other stuff goes in there as well and then topped with fried onions and baked to crispy golden perfection. And although it is delicious, as I said, I always feel a little gross after eating it. So I'm wondering if you guys have any thoughts on how to make it more wholesome, more delicious and basically a reimagined look at green bean casserole. Thanks again. Oh, I love this question. Awesome.

For the record, I didn't grow up with Thanksgiving. I've never had green bean casserole. Actually, I haven't either. But I do have some recommendations of how I would sort of lighten it and modernize it. Absolutely. Okay. So what I would do is I would start with fresh green beans from the farmers market or grocery store and I would trim them.

I would lightly blanch them and set them aside. And then I would make a very thin bechamel sauce using flour and butter to make a roux. And the way you make it thinner or thicker is by controlling the amount of milk that you add to a roux. And the way you make it thinner or thicker is by controlling the amount of milk that you add to your roux. So I would add a little bit more milk than normal than like the recipe suggests. And I have a great recipe that we actually linked to last week. So we'll link to it again. You know, then I would think about all the other things that make cream of mushrooms soup tastes delicious. And so clearly there's mushrooms in there. So I would probably start with just like

some delicious sort of button mushrooms and saute them. Oh, you're going to sub out the whole cream of mushroom soup situation. I guess I just thought that for something like this, you'd need to have the mushroom soup as a part of it. Oh yeah, I think that that's a big part of what's making it too gloopy and too thick and too like rich and cloying for her and heavy. So I think you can leave all that out and then you just have a really nice homemade bechamel sauce that ends up being the total volume of this can of soup and the milk that you were adding. And then yeah, you can still add some soy sauce, you can add some black pepper, you

add your home cooked mushrooms and onions, You could add some like delicious, nice, fresh herbs right at the end, some parsley and thyme. And you can make your own instead of using like pre-made store bought French fried onions. You could make some slow cooked shallot rings that you fry in oil until they're golden and brown and put those on top and bake that in the oven and that's sort of like a lighter, more modern version. until they're golden and brown and put those on top and bake that in the oven.

And that's sort of like a lighter, more modern version. And you're still getting that casserole-y yumminess and that flour in the bechamel is still gonna bind it. And you're still having every bit of sort of all of those little flavors that make it green bean casserole, but it's not that processed taste. But you're just winging this. You have not actually had it.

No, but that's exactly how I would do it. Yeah. And I think it would totally work. Yeah, no, I like it. This is exciting. I mean, I like when you're riffing. I like the idea that it's like throwing a knife blindfolded. It's just exhilarating to witness.

I also suspect, I mean, I don't think that I'm like that creative. I suspect that if I Googled this and like we looked up like a New York Times or Bon Appetit or some other credible source for a recipe, it would basically step by step be exactly the same. But I really appreciate your wonders really making my ego feel really good right now. Okay, good. Let's keep going. It feels good because I feel like I get to impress you.

And this like, I've had a hard day. So today I'm going to feel really good about myself. Okay, good. I'm going to spin the wheel and now I'm going to take- Are you going to put in a wheel sound effect here? Like, brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr wheel of sides is cranberry sauce. We have a couple questions about cranberry sauce and I want to play both of them. Hit me. Hi y'all. This is Sean from Portland, Oregon with a cranberry conundrum. Conundrum?

So during the holidays growing up in my family, the cranberry sauce was kind of an afterthought, just like getting plopped on a plate out of a can last minute. As you can imagine, it wasn't my favorite. But I do know for some people the cranberry sauce is what brings the whole meal together and my wife is one of those people. I'm wondering if you have a delicious cranberry sauce recipe so I could help make my wife's holiday a little better. And who knows, maybe I'll join team cranberry sauce. Jared Ranere Team cranberry sauce, by the way, has never won a World Series. Rude. I'm so anti you right now,

because I feel like Team Cranberry Sauce is the only team to be on on Thanksgiving, and I will explain why shortly. So, like, any jokes anti Team Cranberry Sauce, I will not stand for. No, I'm just saying Team Cranberry Sauce. No, no, no, no. Like, not even making fun in a theoretical sports way is okay, okay?

All right, I'm gonna give you a little complication. Okay. Sean does not like the canned cranberry. Here's a question from Liz though. My name is Liz and something you need to know about me is that I am a trash goblin who really likes canned cranberry sauce. Trash goblin? My mother on the other hand really likes canned cranberry sauce. My mother, on the other hand, really likes homemade cranberry sauce with whole cranberries.

I was wondering if you guys had any recipes or ideas for homemade cranberry sauce that is more of the texture of canned cranberry sauce. Thank you. So here, I'm throwing you a needle to thread. cranberry sauce. Thank you. So here I'm throwing you a needle to thread. Can you come up with a solution that solves both Liz's desire for homemade cranberry sauce that feels like canned cranberry sauce while also giving Sean a delicious cranberry sauce recipe that is better than the cranberry sauce that left Sean wanting more from it?

Okay. Yes and no. The answer is basically water and sugar. I think we're going to need a few more words than that to really make sense. Water and sugar. Next. Next. Got it, everyone? Okay. So let's start with Sean. And then I'll use the answer to Sean's question to sort of answer, Liz. So for Sean, my preferred cranberry sauce is cranberry with quince. And that's just because quince is a really lovely fruit that I love working into things at this time of year. And I find that cranberry and quince

are a lovely pairing. For those people out there, definitely not me, but like say, you know, slightly less food savvy people. Could you explain what a quince is? Oh, sure. Not you. Not me. A quince is a fruit. It's a beautiful fruit that is related to an apple. It kind of looks like a lumpy misshapen precursor to an apple. It's also related to a rose. Wait, what?

Well, apples are related to roses. Wow, I didn't know that. You can't really eat quince raw because it's very tannic and it'll dry your mouth out. It's not pleasant to eat raw. So you have to cook it and you have to cook it with a lot of sugar or you have to like cook it in wine. It's really nice to cook with meats and braises and things like that. But traditionally it's cooked with a lot of sugar into jams, marmalades, or into fruit pastes. And it comes into season at this time of year in the

fall and it has a really delightful fragrance. And one of the things I like to do with it is put it in my cranberry sauce. I can't tell you why, it's a nice thing I like to do in the fall. And I have a recipe for it, I will link to it. It's also a classic Iranian ingredient. And so it's like a way for me to bring a Persian flavor to the Thanksgiving table. Guess what else I like to put in my cranberry sauce? A Persian mulberry. No, it's one of the ones that other people might think

is just a piece of trash. Oh, a bay leaf. Yeah. So you put quince in bay leaves. Yeah. So cranberries are very, very tart. So I like a really, really simple flavorings in my cranberry sauce. I think they take a fair amount of sugar, some water. You're basically making a jam when you make cranberry sauce. You're making a really simple jam. And so depending on how much sugar and how much water you use and how long you cook it,

you're just, that's gonna be what determines the texture of that jam and whether it becomes a jelly, whether it becomes super stiff, whether it's looser, thicker, sweeter, more acidic, all of that. So that's where the answer to this question is going for both of these question askers. And there are different things that we can do to control the texture and the taste.

So I like a pretty loose and pretty tart cranberry sauce for a couple reasons. One, I can see your eyes. I also like my tarts pretty loose. This is a children's show. They don't understand what I'm saying. One of the reasons I advocate for a pretty acidic or tart cranberry sauce is because on a typical Thanksgiving table, there's so much richness and saltiness. There's so much fat. There's so much just like starch. And on a typical Thanksgiving table, the only source of acidity is cranberry sauce. And so I really like that to be very bright, very acidic. I want every bite that I eat to have cranberry sauce on it because that's what wakes up my palate. That's what makes things really exciting. And I'm actually an advocate of other condiments on the table too. Like I like a little herby salsa verde with fried sage in it, because I want there to be more sources of acid

so that there are things perking up every bite that I eat. Because I think that that's why after just a few bites, often Thanksgiving can become like really heavy. And you're just like, I can't eat anymore. And you're like, I have to fall asleep. So. That makes so much sense now. Now I understand when I was growing up,

why I always loved, you know, we would combine American Thanksgiving with a full Indian dinner. And now I understand why I always loved having a little bit of spicy Indian pickle on the side. And I would mix that in with my stuffing. I bet back then, and really for a long time before I read your book, I used to think of these things in music terms. I used to think about them as bass and treble. Mm-hmm. And I would always be like,

oh, like this food is too bassy. It needs a little bit of treble. And I realize now the treble that I was looking for was acid. Mm-hmm. That's exactly it. Exactly it. So yeah, we'll link to my cranberry sauce recipe. The other thing I think a classic cranberry sauce often has is like a, you know like a strip or two of orange zest and even like the juice of half or a whole orange, like a little bit of that. You could even

put like a little piece of cinnamon stick in there if you wanted to or juniper berry. I'll link to a couple of recipes for you. It's a really simple thing to do. It's usually one of the very last things I make before I go to the table. It's not difficult at all. And frankly, like it's really inexpensive to also buy a can of cranberry sauce. So you can have both. And so how do you get the consistency

of the homemade cranberry sauce to appeal to feel right for the trash goblin? For the trash goblin, which I'm a trash goblin too. So I love that. I'm always go. For the trash goblin, which I'm a trash goblin too, so I love that. I'm always gobbling the trash. So you could, if you want, you can leave out quince or you can put it in. You don't have to do that step.

But what I would do is make some homemade cranberry sauce that appeases your mom and maybe make it a little bit more watery. And then you probably will want yours to be sweeter and have some amount that's less watery. Wait, you're suggesting two different batches of cranberry sauce? No, what I would do is make a larger batch and then take half of it out and then add some more sugar to half of it, and that'll be your batch, and add some more water. Wait, she's gonna add water for her mom to make it less like canned cranberry sauce? Correct. The one that will please her mom will be a little bit thinner, like a more sort of

preserve homemade texture. And then the one for herself will be a little bit stiffer and a little bit sweeter. And then she will take an immersion blender, a stick blender, if she has one. If not, she'll put the whole thing in a food processor or in a regular blender and zap it until it's quite smooth. And then the trick that's pretty fun if you want is you can take a can, an empty can from something from chickpeas or whatever you got. And you can spray it with some canola oil or some cooking spray and then pour that cranberry sauce in there and let it set in the fridge. And then you can like unmold it so you can have your own homemade cranberry sauce from a can. In the shape of a can.

In the shape of a little cylindrical glop. And then you glop it out. Exactly. I added the step of the oil. You probably don't even need to do that. That's great. Here's a question, Samin. So we've talked about this a little bit in the past.

My way of cooking. A lot of times I'll just take a thing that's supposed to be ready-made and then modify it and make it my own. And I'm wondering with that kind of approach, is there a way for somebody to work with canned cranberry sauce and improve it? You know, start with the canned cranberry sauce

and then zhuzh it up. Oh, totally. What would you do in that case? In that case, I would take the canned cranberry. I would heat it up with some water and I would acidify it. I think it tends to be pretty thick and pretty sweet. So maybe I would add some of my favorite ingredients, some bay leaf, you know, and then I would squeeze the juice of half of an orange, maybe use a vegetable peeler

to like throw in the zest of like two strips of orange zest in there, let that simmer for 20 minutes. And then if I felt so moved, I would add like a spice, whether that's a cardamom pod, two juniper berries. Or your cinnamon stick. Yeah. One of those, not all of them. Just to let it sort of like get a little something. Oh, another thing I think is sometimes nice in cranberry sauce is a little bit of those, not all of them, just to let it sort of like get a little something. Oh, another thing I think is sometimes nice in cranberry sauce is a little bit of heat, like a little bit of cayenne pepper or like a little bit of dried red chili, or I think chipotles are kind of nice. A little bit

of that smoky heat is nice in there too. So yeah, any of those things are kind of nice to add in there. CB. Wait, Samin, if you did not grow up eating Thanksgiving dinner, at what point did you become Team Cranberry Sauce? Literally the very first time, because I grew up eating very highly acidic food. Our palates are so acidic. There's yogurt and pickles and sour things in everything that we eat.

We believe in balance, you know, in every bite and every dish. And so I have a really highly acidic palette. So anytime I eat a meal that's not acidic, I'm very aware of it. And so Thanksgiving for me, like my first Thanksgiving when I was invited to a friend's house in college, to her friend's family's house, I was kind of in shock.

And what was that cranberry sauce? Was that a homemade one or was it from the can? I'm pretty sure it was homemade. Like per family was really avid home cooks. I got to experience a lot of really interesting things that I will never forget. And I'm still like obsessed with like there was Ambrosia salad. Uh-huh. Like, you know, something that is called a salad

but has marshmallows in it. Uh-huh. Yes, which was very exciting to me. Oh, in that case, I am so excited to play you this next question. I can't believe you brought up ambrosia salad spontaneously. But here's a question we got from Julio. I'm hoping you can help me out with this issue. My husband loves that sweet potato side that is topped with marshmallows.

And I think it is the grossest thing ever. Like marshmallows are candy. It's just, ugh, no. Is there a spin on this dish that does not involve marshmallows that you would suggest that would be a good replacement for that because ain't no way I'm cooking that in my kitchen this year. Thanks for the insight and for the fabulous podcast. I'm 100% with Julio. What is that?

I mean, it is wild that that's considered a vegetable. I had never even heard of this dish until we got this question. Then I looked, I was like, this is just some weird thing that his husband, you know, I don't know, some regional thing. And I looked and apparently this is a real thing. Sweet potatoes with marshmallows. Oh my God. It's a way a real thing. Wait, Rishi, please tell me that you experienced, I think it was now like four or five years ago, the

highly controversial state by state map of the defining dishes of Thanksgiving that was published by the New York Times a few years ago. No, I don't remember that. The New York Times quote unquote researched like what was the most popular side dish in each state and then published this like nationwide map of like the defining side dish per state. Okay. And so many states were deeply offended. By how they were represented? By how they were represented.

Oh my gosh. There were a lot of marshmallow ones. There were a lot of jello ones. One of the states got like a grape salad. Minnesota was like, you done us wrong. I like the idea that like the state wrote in. Experiencing this on the internet was amazing. So sweet potato marshmallows. Why do you have to have marshmallows in there?

I love sweet potatoes, but sweet is already in the name. It's already sweet. I feel like you can go as far as adding maple syrup. Or brown sugar. I really love it when sweet potatoes are caramelized and really brown on the outside, but still have like soft, delicious, creamy texture on the inside. Which means on a typical sort of my once a week way that I cook them, I either have them and just like cook them cut side down, or I cut them into coins that are maybe about

like three quarters of an inch or an inch thick. And then I flip them about halfway through cooking. So they get browned on both sides, but that way I have a nice thick piece that I can like bite into. So I would suggest doing that either like having them or cutting them into really nice, thick coins. And one of the fats that I really think pairs really nicely with sweet potatoes is coconut oil.

I really love the taste of coconut oil with root vegetables. I just think there's like a natural sort of sweetness to coconut oil that is so delicious with root vegetables. And then if I wanted to introduce that brown sugary thing, you know, to appease my husband, who doesn't exist. I would probably just like mix some brown sugar and butter and like sprinkle that on top. The other thing that would be kind of fun to do, I've done this before. This might be so interesting and special that like he forgets there's no marshmallows. You could make Hasselback sweet potatoes. Do you know what those are Rishi?

Um, is it named after you? Like when I were trying to get you to do this podcast and you give me a Hasselback sweet potatoes. Do you know what those are, Rishi? Is it named after you? Like whenever I try and get you to do this podcast and you give me a Hasselback? That's exactly it. No, they're so beautiful. They're like little potato porcupines. They're like little potato fans.

They're potato fans. I'm a potato fan. And the way you make them is really, I love how you make them. So you put your sweet potato down on your cutting board, your peeled sweet potato down on your cutting board, and you take two pencils or two chopsticks and you put one in front and one behind it

so that it doesn't roll around on your cutting board. And then you use a knife cutting across the width as if you were gonna cut it into coins. But what the pencils or the chopsticks do is they keep you from cutting all the way down. So really all you're doing is you're scoring the potato. Oh, you're cutting it into slices but only 90% of the way.

Exactly, you're cutting it into a fan. So the pencils keep you from going all the way through. Okay. You know, and I would cut them into coins that are maybe like a, I don't know, quarter inch thick. Okay. So at the end you can, you should be able to hold it up and it's a fan that's held together. It's a sweet potato cut into a fan of coins

that's held together. Okay. And then you do that with as many sweet potatoes will fit into your dish and then you put them all in your dish. And now in every single nook and cranny in between each coin slice, you can fit all sorts of deliciousness.

So you can fit butter and brown sugar. So if you want- Like a pad of butter in between each one of those nooks? Yes. So if you want, you can make like a brown sugary butter or a maple syrupy butter or a spiced butter or like a sagey maple syrupy butter or whatever combination of deliciousness that you want and stick little pieces of that in between or pour, you can melt it and pour that in between. And now you have this beautiful thing that you can roast and so it will be so dramatic once it

comes out of the oven. And because they're sliced, it will sort of be this kind of, you get both things. You get both the like the texture of chips, you know? And the bottom part is the texture of that soft, chewy, gooey piece of like whole roasted sweet potato. So you, you get the double experience out of the single sweet potato. That sounds great. I mean, that's a few different ways to make a sweet potato. And Julio, I hope one of those pleases your guy. I really hope so. Otherwise, I mean, unpleasable. Okay, with that, I'm going to play you this question from Katie. Hi, Rashan, my name is Katie. And for obvious reasons, I'm skipping the big family Thanksgiving

this year. But I'm kind of excited about it because I'm a vegetarian, and I get to kind of make my own vegetarian Thanksgiving this year with my roommate. Because normally, I'm sort of resigned to all of the various Thanksgiving sides that are kind of all the same texture and same blend ingredients. And so I was wondering if you guys had any ideas

for a vegetarian main that I could make for my little small Thanksgiving this year. I'm down for non-traditional, obviously no turkey, probably not Tofurky, so not into that. But yeah, I'm down to hear your ideas. Thanks guys. All right, I have an idea. I have an idea too, but I'm gonna let you go first as our resident veggie.

I have an idea that the last question sort of made me think of, but I certainly wouldn't know how to make it. Okay, you say the idea and I'll figure out how to make it. Okay, thinking about sort of the flavors of Thanksgiving and what would be like a special thing to cook and really delicious to eat. What would you think about a pumpkin ravioli?

Oh, I love this idea. With sage and brown butter sauce. I love this idea. If you really wanna go all out, you could make it into a lasagna too. Oh. Yeah, and make like a roasted squash lasagna with, yeah, all of those flavors and add like a ricotta layer, you know?

I think that's a great idea, absolutely. And we can link to all the different parts of both the lasagna and the pasta. I think that's a fantastic idea. I've definitely never had pumpkin or squash in a lasagna form. Oh yeah, it's one of my favorite ones. I mean, I've made it both where I cook the squash

and leave it in pieces, but I actually prefer pureeing it. I really like it where everything in that lasagna, or in the case of ravioli, where everything is really, really soft and it's just velvet upon velvet upon velvet and all of these different flavors and the pumpkin has brown butter in it, and there's a ricotta layer and there's a bechamel layer, and there's saginess. And one of the secret ingredients I like to put in it is there's a cookie in Northern Italy called amaretti cookies. So that's a traditional sort of ingredient

often in pumpkin raviolis. And so I'll sprinkle a little bit of like secret amaretti crumbs in there. And that adds a little like surprise flavor. And you know, obviously a ton of Parmesan cheese. It's super rich, it's super decadent, that's it's a thing I love making. So I think that's a great idea Rishi and I think it would be really fun and really satisfying and really gratifying. So yeah, I'm totally all for that. Okay, and what's your idea? My idea comes from

my friend Aaron. He made it for his partner and his best friend, maybe now 10 years ago. And it's always been like one of my favorite veggie mains at Thanksgiving. He took a smallish squash, like a kabocha. And I think it's important for this squash to be like a really flavorful squash. It's maybe not like a big pumpkin, but like get a nice sort of like heritage flavorful squash. A curry is another variety that I really like, K-U-R-I, but kabochas are really nice and sort of core it out like you're going to make a jack-o'-lantern and save the top, take the seeds out. and now you have this beautiful squash that you can stuff with all sorts of beautiful things. Basically, he stuffed the squash like as if it was going to be a turkey that he was going

to stuff with stuffing. So he made a really flavorful stuffing out of bread and cheese and vegetables like kale and onions and all sorts of other deliciousness and herbs and maybe prunes that he soaked in white wine. And I don't even remember. He just made like a super flavorful stuffing and then he stuffed the squash and made a roasted squash. And so then everybody got a slice of big, beautiful roasted squash and stuffing and he soaked the stuffing with like a really, really rich veggie stock so that it was really flavorful and moist. It didn't come out dry, you know? And then I think he kept, as he was roasting

the squash, he just kept like basting it over and over again with like butter and olive oil. So it got all beautiful and brown. And it was one of those things where at the table, you never felt like you were not getting something. You just felt so satisfied. And it was this like really beautiful, beautiful big glorious thing. That sounds so cool. Okay, now that we're in the world of main dishes, here's a question from Casey. Casey Snell So my partner and I have never cooked a turkey or the whole meal before. Usually we just like bring aside to a bigger gathering, but this year we'll be all in this together by staying apart or something else like that. But we feel pretty good about our cooking skills. We're just not sure how to time it all.

Like what can be prepped ahead and how far can you prep it without losing quality of taste and texture and all that. Like, can we cook some things at the same time as the turkey? Because all the 90 sitcoms lead me to believe that sucker's going to be in there for a while. And Nina in our oven is being a drunk lately. So whenever we heat it to about 300, we have to give it a chance to air out and set up the door open for a minute.

And then we get the heat back up and it's usually fine. And let's cook after that. But what if this happens while we're cooking the turkey since it's going to be a while? Should we just order from Bob Evans? Please help. Yes. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Casey, I'm so grateful for this question because I don't know how many years ago, but many years ago I spent an absurd amount of time writing many blog posts

with a week-long plan of how to plan all of your time for Thanksgiving. So I will dig up those blog posts. I mean, and that was for a person who was going to go really, really over the top and make every single thing from scratch. But really the way you figure this out is you work backwards from the moment you want to sit down at the table and then you just work backwards from there. And so you figure out, okay, how much time does it take to make this thing? And oh, that thing needs to be in the oven for this long and this thing needs to be in the oven for this long, but there can only be one of those things in the oven at a time.

So how do I juggle them? Yeah. Oh, wait, like, you know, so you just have to sort of make a map of your kitchen and of your time and what you want to have. And that's how you create your schedule. So what we'll do is we're going to dig up those blog posts and link to them. And then you're going to spend a little bit of time, maybe the Sunday before Thanksgiving, sort of making your plan.

Anytime I enter a kitchen, I think about what's the ultimate sort of constraint. And for Thanksgiving, the ultimate constraint for most people is oven space. And because most dishes on the Thanksgiving table need to spend at least some time in the oven, you know, like pie, turkey, stuffing, casseroles, all those like sweet potatoes, all those things have to get roasted and toasted and braised and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And at different heats and different times.

And yet somehow you want everything to be hot at the same time. Yeah. And you're like, how am I going to do this and keep this hot and this needs to be rested and this and this and this. And so trying to write a menu that works around that is going to be helpful.

Trying to choose dishes that will succeed at room temperature is going to be helpful. Like what? One of the things I really love to serve, I'll roast, say, Brussels sprouts and butternut squash or other squash in advance, and then toss it with vinegar and sugar and hot chilies in a sauce called agrodolce, which is just a dressing. And then it's sort of like a marinated room temperature roast vegetable salad. Or for example, like a pie,

pie is something I would get out of the way first thing in the morning on Thursday. But we haven't not yet addressed the other scary part of your question, which is that your oven freaks out when it gets over 300 degrees. And should you just go to Bob Evans? So like, I would say, can you call an oven repair person

because I am worried, this is an oven heavy day, an oven heavy week. And the fact that your oven is already finicky is concerning to me. If you can get your oven repaired, that would be helpful. Otherwise I might say, yes, you should probably order the turkey part of your meal from Bob Evans or somebody else and then maybe make the rest of it yourself so that you can relieve yourself from the stress of the meat. Because as Rishi pointed out, you do want to make sure that the meat is cooked properly, and that can be a pretty stressful part of cooking.

Yeah. So, I mean, you have no idea how many stupid things come into my head that I never actually say to you. Believe it or not, you are spared so many... I don't believe it. It's many. I don't believe it. It's true. I don't believe it. Like, for example, just now I was thinking about

how we would say to Casey that, yeah, making sure you're able to cook everything is of an essential nature. Oh no. I mean, it's not. But then you still found a way to say it, so guess what? I'm saying I didn't say it.

No, but you did say it. But I'm not taking any credit for it because it's say it. No, but you did say it. But I'm not taking any credit for it because it's so bad. No, but you just said it. As an example of the kind of thing I don't say to you. But you just said it to me. Okay, moving on. Oh, Casey.

Casey, I wish you the best of luck. You're going to be fine. Now that we're talking turkey. It's Rachel. And Siri. And we were wondering if you had any tips for adapting Samin's buttermilk chicken recipe for a turkey. Thanks.

Bye. Bye. Bye. What an amazing question, perfectly timed, because today in the New York Times, my buttermilk turkey recipe is being published. And so we're actually publishing three different variations. There is this whole spatchcocked turkey. There's a breast for people who are not going to gather in a large group. And also we're republishing the original chicken so that hopefully there's a version for everyone. And could you just explain, just a quick reminder, if they're not familiar with this famous recipe

of yours, what the deal is? Yeah, you take a chicken, you put it in like a gallon size zipper plastic bag, you dump two cups of buttermilk on it and put some salt in there and let it sit overnight. And then you take the chicken out, scrape off as much buttermilk as you can and roast it in the oven. Do you have to like shake it up once you put it in the bag? Yeah, you kind of just like move it around. The buttermilk and the salt turn into this really beautiful

brine and because buttermilk has natural sugars and acids in it and also water, it acts like an incredible brine that both tenderizes the meat, the sugars help create this beautiful golden brown skin and you know, this sugars help create this beautiful golden brown skin. And this is not something I invented by any means. I came to it because I was trying to adapt the yogurt marinated chicken that I saw my mom making for Persian kebabs, but yogurt was too expensive in the restaurant where

I worked to use. So I was like, oh, maybe it would work with buttermilk for our, because we had a beautiful wood fired spit and I loved spit roasting chicken. And then as soon as I started doing it with buttermilk, I remembered, oh gosh, in the American South, like grandmas have been doing this, you know, for hundreds of years where they marinate their chicken overnight in buttermilk before deep frying it. Yeah. And so this would work for a turkey too. People for the last few years have been asking me, will it work for a turkey? And I was really hesitant to just say yes, cause I wasn't sure if the skin would get too dark

or what the cooking time would be, if it would be different or if the salt amount was right. So I spent a few, I have been cooking a lot of turkey over the last few months to get the marinating time right and the salt amount right. And I decided to spatchcock it, which means to cut out the backbone, which dramatically cuts down the cooking time, which I think will be a wonderful gift to everyone this holiday. And it results in a really beautiful bird with just like an incredibly lacquered skin. It's so simple.

And unlike other brined birds, what it means is because you cut out that bone, it kind of folds in half and you just slip it into two gallon plastic bag and it takes up way less room in the fridge. You know, you don't have to like make this complicated brine. You just put buttermilk and salt on the turkey, leave it in the fridge for two days, pull it out,

bring it to room temperature, roast it until it's done and call it a day. And it's so tender and juicy. It's so tasty. And yeah, the recipe is online and in print today. Here's a question for you. As I imagine you've had to deal with this later, since turkey leftovers are such a big part of the post Thanksgiving eating. Honestly, the entire reason I care about turkey is for the leftovers. And how does the buttermilk turkey translate to leftovers?

Oh, the best. So good. To me, better because I feel like buttermilk leads to juicier turkey, which leads to juicier leftovers. I can imagine that because I know, as you were talking about the yogurt marinated Iranian chicken, of course, that made me think of

the same kind of thing in Indian cooking. And that's a food that tastes great as a leftover. So tasty. What size turkey did you develop this recipe for? I tested this one with several different size turkeys from eight to 14 pounds. But if you end up using a turkey that's larger, it will absolutely work. You just have to adjust the cooking time to make sure you get to the appropriate temperature, which is 150 degrees in the breast and 165 degrees in the leg. And if you notice that the skin is getting too dark, you can

just cover it with a piece of foil until it gets to the right temperature. An eight pound turkey though is still a lot of turkey. It is. And usually the calculation for like when you're shopping is you buy a pound per person. Well, that leads me to this question from Polly. And it's a sentiment that we got from a lot of listeners who wrote into us. Like many people this year,

I will not be traveling home to visit family for Thanksgiving. Any advice on how to downsize the Thanksgiving meal, but still make it special? Thanks. So for example, this special turkey recipe that you've made, eight pounds of turkey, if you're serving eight people, but you're just by yourself, how do you make this work and still get to have that kind of deliciousness? Well, you said that you did a version of the

recipe with just turkey breast? KS Yeah, so I made a version that's just with the breast, which honestly, if breast is not for you, you could also just buy the leg and brine the leg. At the grocery store where I shop, year round, you can buy just the breast or the leg, like in the meat case. You don't even have to go to the butcher counter and ask the butcher to cut it up for you. I suspect that at most grocery stores that have a butcher counter this year, they will happily be carving turkeys into smaller pieces, into halves and into individual parts for people.

Because I don't think, I think a lot of people will be wanting just parts. Yeah. I think you can go in on meals with neighbors. And you know, as far as I understand it, and you know, we had Dr. Uncle Sumesh Hirway, PhD in earlier episode to tell us about some of the science, but as long as you're very careful, it's really the mucus membranes that are how we pass COVID from one another. And so food and food containers, as long as they're kept dry and clean, is not a way to transmit COVID from person to person. So a cooked turkey

or even a raw turkey, if neighbors were to buy and split up turkey, I think that's one way to be able to sort of get those flavors and get those tastes. And also I think it's a tough year. It's a different year. This is going to be a year that we look back on at the end of our lives and remember always as just a year that was different. And it's OK if this meal is different. I don't think anybody's meal is going to look normal. Yeah. The whole year has an asterisk. So your Thanksgiving can too.

Yeah. And so if you don't have turkey, you don't have everything, it's OK. Honestly, I have to say, I prefer chicken anyway. And frankly, like, my favorite things on the table have nothing to do with meat. Yeah, I just want stuffing, mashed potatoes, and gravy. I feel like you're eating a pretty butter heavy meal, buddy. I am, exactly. You're like a little stick of butter.

You're like a stick of butter with a goatee. Oh my God. Can someone carve Rishi out of butter, please? And this brings us to dessert. Already? I don't even have a stomach ache. We've already covered turkey. And so I think this is a perfect time to take a little break. And then when we come back, let's get into some pie talk with our friend Demiha Dijuwebe. Yeah. So joining us now is comedian, director, screenwriter Demiha Dijuwebe.

He writes for the new Amber Ruffin show. He was a co-host of the podcasts Punch Up the Jam and Gilmore Guys. He also tried to kill me. I don't think you can just drop that in. It was a game. I think he did kill me, actually. In a game. Online. On Zoom. He makes hilarious videos and songs and as it turns out, baked goods. Well, the baked goods aren't hilarious, but they probably are delicious. I don't know, maybe they're hilarious, let's see.

Okay, let's find out. Hey Demi, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I have been watching on Instagram as this entire quarantine period, you have been baking so many delicious looking things. Yes. And as an aside, I have not gotten to eat any of them,

but they look delicious. I was supposed to bring Rishi four apple turnovers that I made last night, and then work got away from me and I didn't have time. And I was very excited for him to have been able to have said he'd tasted them by the time we recorded this, but I have to take them over afterwards. I've been supposed to send Demi a banana bread since February.

I mean, I've been supposed to send— Oh, probably Demi too. I was like, whoa, I didn't know about this. Like, Demi gets one before me? I'll take it. Well, Demi, I'm going to send you a banana bread tomorrow, but I've been supposed to send Rishi a banana bread since February. Still have not. So don't worry. She's also supposed to buy me

some dark chocolate Almond Joys, never got those. He's keeping a list. Oh yeah. There's a long list. Oh wow. Okay, I've been to your apartment Demi for parties and there've often been great snacks. Sometimes I've brought cookies,

but I didn't realize that you are a baker yourself. Is that something that's been new since quarantine? Yeah, that's definitely something that really started in quarantine. Just before quarantine, friends would come over and we'd make cookies and my roommate, Gabe, would always insist that we make them spicy and just like throw some cayenne in there.

So we started experimenting with like cookie recipes and whatnot. And then I was sort of like, well, I'd like to bake other things. And it kind of spiraled and spiraled. And now it's just like, I have a pressed collection of loose pages from a notebook that are just different recipes. And like, it just gets like it starts with cookies and then gets to like pumpkin pie entirely from scratch. But where do you like when you decide you want to make pumpkin pie, where do you get the recipe from?

Just Googling blank recipe and being like, this one works, let's go. You just look one up and you just commit and you go with it. There is no trial and error, there's no checking for quality. I'm like, this looks good. Sometimes I'll end up on like one of those baking blogs

where they tell like a long story and have a lot of photographs. And I'll be like, just, okay, we go to the bottom and I look at it. I don't need to. You're like, I don't care about this story. Exactly. I'm like, I don't even need to hear about like, you know, what we go to the bottom and I look at it. I don't need to. You're like, I don't care about this story. Exactly. I'm like, I don't even need to hear about like,

you know, what's really best for this is this brain of thing. I'm like, if it's good, it'll work, let's go. Well, this pumpkin pie is specifically why we wanted to talk to you for this episode, our first of two Thanksgiving episodes. What made you decide you wanted to make pumpkin pie? So my friends and I decided we wanted to watch over the garden wall.

And my friend Celia, it's like her sort of holiday fall tradition. It's like, oh, it's officially fall now that we've watched over the garden wall. And she offhandedly mentioned like, oh, I wish we could have pumpkin pie. And as soon as anyone mentions any baked good now, I'm just like, could I make it?

Could I make it? Yeah, I can make it. And I had a graham cracker pie crust, but then I was also like, well, you know what, I've never made a pie before. And I've also never made like a pie crust before. And I hear that that's a whole thing unto itself. So I was like, well, maybe I'll make that from scratch. And then I was like, okay, and I can get the pumpkin pie filling. And then I was like, well, no, can I make the pumpkin filling from scratch too? And so I looked up a recipe and they're like, yeah, just get a pumpkin and cut it in half and do all this stuff. And I was like, like, yeah, just get a pumpkin and cut it in half

and do all this stuff. And I was like, oh, okay, this is a whole thing. All right, I'm in. Wow. How many days did it take you? Oh, just the one. Wow, you did the whole thing in one day with a pumpkin? I did it while we were watching.

I was just like, I'm in my kitchen. I got the screen over here and the TV's in front of me and I'll just make the pie and not disturb anyone. It was really fun. Wow. How did it turn out? I think it turned out great. And how do you feel about pumpkin pie otherwise?

Is that a food that you have a lot of attachment to? Not really. I actually don't, but I don't hate it. And eating this one, I felt the same way, being like, it's not, it's like, it's pumpkin pie for sure. Other people seem to like it. I delivered leftovers to friends and they were like, it's not, it's like, it's pumpkin pie for sure. Other people seem to like it. I delivered leftovers to friends and they were like, this is good. So I'm like, okay, I'm confident that I did it right.

Can we talk about the crust? Yes. Okay. So first of all, what was the fat in the crust? Was it all butter or was there other stuff in it? It was butter. I saw a recipe that I could use shortening for, but I read something about butter just tasting better. I was like, well, I've got both, but I read something about butter just tasting better.

And I was like, well, I've got both, so I'll just... It does taste better. All right, well, there we go. Mm-hmm. You seem like you're, like, the perfect level of baking experience to enter the pie making, because it sounds like you've been baking and have a comfort with baking, yet you're not, like, so much of a geek

and, like, so sort of in it that you haven't like built a fear because a lot of for me like I had built a real fear of pie crust because I had heard all of this lore there's a lot of lore around pie crust if you add too much water if you overwork it it'll get tough it won't it'll get too chewy and so to me it's you had a kind of beautiful amount of blissful ignorance and so that probably helped you because you didn't enter it fearfully and you just were like, yeah, I wanted the butter. The butter tasted good.

Welcome to Home Cooking where my co-host Samin calls our guests ignorant in a nice way. Yeah, I love to be called ignorant in a nice way for once. I do feel like with baking it is this thing where I'm like, hey, someone wrote the recipe, I'll just follow the recipe. It's like, there's no fear to it for me. I was intimidated by pastries for a while and then I tried making an apple turnover

and I was like, oh, this turned out good. So I'll just keep going. I feel like the way you're describing your approach to making baked goods and making this pie, it feels like how I think of the way you approach all the things you make, like music and videos and things like that. Good ignorance?

No, that the difficulty, you're not intimidated by the difficulty level, that actually you get excited by the challenge of doing something you've never done before. Whereas other people might be like, oh, well, I can't do that. Well, that's me, is I'm like,

let me admire myself in all of the nuances and details and overwhelm myself with like how difficult this thing could possibly be and then I will not even attempt it for 22 years until I've learned every possible thing. That's my thing. Whereas you're, you have a much wiser though. It sounds like an insult. It is actually a compliment.

Okay. Let me just say. Demi, I love how much of your baking is motivated by your friends. I feel like one of the reasons I've gotten so into baking through quarantine is that it is a very nice way to make a thing that is not for me and then just deliver it to a friend as like a, just like a here's a fun thing for me to do. I made baked goods for my coworkers just as like, oh, I'm so excited to be working with you and like I'm going to deliver it to them tonight also. Your coworkers on the Amber Ruffin Show.

Yes. Nice. That's so nice. This is a nice way for me to have a reason to deliver things. And also it's just like every so often I'll post the things on Instagram and someone will just be like, oh my God, what is this?

And I'll like start talking with them and I'll be like, let me bake you something. And I'm just like, pick a thing because then it's a fun, it's just a fun thing for me to like get to learn how to bake more things by taking requests from those friends and being like, oh, well I would never eat oatmeal raisin cookies, but I'd love to make them for you to eat.

Wow, do you have a sense maybe, or like a list of the number of people who've gotten baked goods from you before me? I do. I wanna say it's in the hundreds now, but it could be the two hundreds, I don't know. I'm going alphabetical, Rishi. You're still on the Gs.

Yeah. I have a lot of G friends, I don't know how it happened. Oh, I understand why you have a lot of G friends. Why? It know how it happened. Oh, I understand why you have a lot of G friends. Why? It's because they all want you to be their B friend. Oh, boy. Oh, I'm leaving. Oh, I can't believe it took us 17 minutes to get here.

To get Demi to want to leave. I know he stayed for you calling him ignorant, but B friend, G friend. That crossed the line. Yeah. Okay, so your pumpkin pie ambivalence aside, what's the thing that you've loved the most that you made? Yeah, what's your favorite baked success?

I really love the apple turnovers I've been making. I think the thing I've made the most is these lemon cakes that every so often, there was a day when I just was like bored and had so many lemons and I was like, all right, I'm just gonna make like seven lemon cakes. And then I delivered them to friends and people seem to really like them. So I like making those.

Those were all the bee friends, Rishi. Oh yeah, that was, yeah. Those were the bees. The Apple turnovers, do you make the pastry dough yourself? I have not. That was partially because I was just afraid of pastry stuff. But after making this pie and it turning out fine, I'm like, well, next time I make it, I definitely want to just make the sheets myself.

You totally should. And a really nice trick, like you should look for a recipe for cream cheese pastry because cream cheese doughs are really quite easy to make and they come together really well and they have a really nice texture and that's a really sort of common dough for a turnover. Try it out. The only thing I've made with cream cheese so far,

I made these orange cream cheese glaze cinnamon rolls, mostly off of a dare. Do you have any interest in baking cookbooks or is it really like you just are so into this like this like process of the google and the notebook? I like baking cookbooks but I've realized this thing so I made sour cream and onion biscuits for the first time the other day. Oh yeah I saw those on your instagram too and they looked amazing. Interesting you didn't heart eyes those I would have sent you some. Well, because I got the message.

Rishi, all you had to do was do one more and I would have been like, well, I'll bring you some. If you wanna make me some of those biscuits, that would be an amazing Thanksgiving. Okay, you got it. I'll deliver these turnovers today and then I'll deliver some biscuits to you before Thanksgiving.

This is incredible. You got it. All you gotta do is ask. Everybody follow Demi on Instagram, send him your wish list. Send him the heart eyes. Uh, uh. Uh.

Uh. So I made those and it was off of this recipe on Bon Appetit and it was like the first time I had used a recipe that was like specific and not just sort of someone submitting a recipe somewhere. And I realized that it was like, oh, okay, this is made with such attention to how you have to make it. And I was like, oh, I might actually screw this up.

I think I'm not as confident here. So I was sort of just enjoying being like, if I Google a thing, what will pop up? But then I also do wanna get good enough that I'm confident following like an expert's recipes. I don't wanna project or impose, but I am inspired to send you a big stack of cookbooks. Please, I will bake you anything from those cookbooks.

And then Rishi, I'll get to you after I do this. This was so great. Thank you so much for doing it. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. We're going to promote your baking career. Cookbook deal coming soon. Yay.

It'll be 12 recipes, all from Google. You can follow Demi on Twitter and Instagram at Electro Lemon. If you're really nice and send emojis at his baked goods, he may or may not decide to make some for you. An update by the way, he dropped off my apple turnovers and I already ate one and it was delicious. Crap, now I really do have to send that banana bread. You definitely do. Wow, you really do.

That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. We make this podcast with the help of Margaret Miller, Zach McNeese, Gary Lee, and Casey Deal. And Mamie Reingold makes our artwork. We're a proud member of Radiotopia, a collective of fiercely independent podcasts. You can learn more about all of the Radiotopia shows at radiotopia.fm. Let us know if you have any cooking related questions.

Just record a voice memo and send it to us at alittlehomecooking at gmail.com. If you hear this episode the day that it comes out and you have Thanksgiving questions, we might still be able to answer them. Otherwise, I don't know, send us your questions for the things you make in December. Holiday cookie box. In the meantime, our website is homecooking.show and you can find all the recipes and transcripts for all of our episodes there.

You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram, ChowSameen. And I'm at Rishi Hereway. Stay healthy, eat well, and take care of each other. We'll be back with more Thanksgiving in part two of our two-part series from the episode... You know what I'm saying. We'll be back in two weeks. Until then, I'm Samin. And I'm Rishi. And we'll be home cooking.