The Reel Rejects - MEETING KINGPIN! Vincent D’Onofrio Gets Candid About Daredevil Born Again & His DARK Psychology!

Starting point is 00:00:00 In 2024, a woman walked into a boutique to buy a designer handbag. The price, $3,000. She bought it. The next day, the fashion house behind that bag was all over the news and not for positive reasons. She had to ask herself, did I just pay a premium for this label? How much is this bag actually worth? We wanted to know too, so join Chino, Melissa, and me as we talk with fashion industry expert K. Harris on the We-Finghammed. It You're Welcome podcast. Together, we'll call out things the fashion industry does right, and we'll

Starting point is 00:00:36 propose some alterations too. That's what we do on this show. We fix things. Companies in crisis, cultural tension points, if it needs fixing, we're on it. If you like this episode, you'll like them all. Catch this and other episodes of We Fixed It Your Welcome on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Charlie and I and a couple of the producers wanting to make a kick-ass daredevil show. And then we realized eventually that the writers that we were working with didn't have that in mind.

Starting point is 00:01:15 We as a group of creatives had meetings with the bosses. And because those guys are creatives, they joined us in this endeavor to turn things around. They back us 100% creatively. They give us complete freedom. They never have once told us to back off, ever. They just keep saying, make it better, make it better. Hi, ladies and gentlemen, today we are joined with the wonderful, the legend, Vincent Dinoffrio,

Starting point is 00:01:47 and couldn't be more excited. And Koi has, of course, met Vincent before, all the way back at Megacom. So I'm happy to just be part of this trifecta today with the three of you guys. And before we get started, I would really just want to think right up front. This happened because I got to meet Nacom, Washington, and I hung out with him in New York for about like an hour and a half. And it was really cool hearing, like, the praise that he was giving you for, like, your physical transformation. And because of him, I'm working out my legs every day now. Do you still, even when you're not shooting Daredevil, or do you find yourself still keeping up with a lot of the fitness and the con has taught you?

Starting point is 00:02:25 Oh, yeah. I mean, I still work out with him when I'm not doing the show. Oh, I didn't realize that. I didn't realize that. Yeah, he's great. And also, your assistant, Cecily, she's been absolutely amazing. I really appreciate the team that you have behind you. They've just made this such a smooth process.

Starting point is 00:02:42 So as we hop into this, we both really love season two a lot. Daredevil, I've said it for many years now, many, many years has been my favorite thing out of the MCU. So to watch season two after all these years be so successful, has been such a great experience. And one of the things that I was thinking about, just to kick this off, is how people often refer to Wilson Fisk and Kingpin sort of interchangeably.

Starting point is 00:03:07 But I'm curious on your end, how do you separate them as an actor? When you're playing him, is Kingpin a mask Wilson puts on? Is it like the truest version of him? Or is it something that only enters the room when Wilson feels threatened? I mean, it's a good question.

Starting point is 00:03:22 I think he, I think he, he is that for real. I think there are different levels of his temperament. But I think he's always that guy. You know, when I first started working on the character, I had to find the voice first because I didn't want to use my own voice. So it was that search for the voice.

Starting point is 00:03:51 The voice eventually came from like an emotion. place. I just went to my office one day and I started riffing on events that had happened in my life. And I hit a point that was really emotional and it kind of brought up this very kind of broken sadness kind of thing in me. And I had a couple of the lines in front of me. So I said some of the dialogue and I was like full of the emotion and it court sort of came out like what you're hearing these starting in the Netflix show. So I immediately kind of built the character off of that. And then, of course, the paintings and drawings from the artists that have drawn him. And then the script after that.

Starting point is 00:04:44 But he is always that. It comes from an emotional broken place. And then there's levels of how that affects his temperament. That is true. It does actually because when you were speaking of brought me back to that first time we ever saw him in season one where people often associate Kingpin more of like the tyrant, but there was such a loneliness in that first moment we saw him. So it was cool to be brought back to that. And actually it goes in great with what you were just wanted to ask first. Yeah, I want to talk about artists in a second because you have a mutual friend and David Mack and our comic world is so near and dear to my heart.

Starting point is 00:05:19 But zooming out to the storytelling, this mapping. of season one and two a born again, I find so fascinating because it feels like born again season was these two men hiding their other selves and throughout the course of the season, finding that other self as acceptable. And then season two to me was them accepting it fully and it actualizing them as Wilson is Kingpin and Matt is Daredevil. The last episode to me feels like a completion of almost a two-season arc in such a beautiful way that I think you can only tell in television, that that long-form format, how early was that idea between these two seasons to kind of be like a one-two punch to tell this giant narration?

Starting point is 00:05:59 Well, I mean, I appreciate what you're saying. It's a very kind of romantic view of it. It was really more about Charlie and I and a couple of the producers wanting to make a kick-ass daredevil show. And then we realized eventually that the writers that we were working with didn't have that in mind. And we as a group of creatives had meetings with the bosses. And because those guys are creatives, they joined us in this endeavor to turn things around. And one of the things about Marrabo, even to this day, something that happened yesterday when we're shooting the third season, these guys are Feige and Desposito. You know, they back us 100% creatively.

Starting point is 00:07:05 They give us complete freedom. They never have once told us to back off ever. They just keep saying, make it better, make it better. And as a team over at Daredebel, we just constantly worked on it. And so that's how that first season came out the way that it did. We were in a situation where we had sort of frank and what we had shot, reshoot some things, and start to make more Daredevil with the additional episodes that we had. And so then we got freed up so that when that season was finished, we felt obligated and all of us wanted to just make an incredible daredevil straight up season from scratch.

Starting point is 00:08:00 You know, and we had all of this now history from the mayorship and all of poor little daredevil's problems to like make a kick-ass season. And I think that's why the second season ended up to be, I think, I agree with you, pretty kick ass. And now in the third season, we have a whole new challenge ahead of us and we're working our butts off right now, like really, like intense. There's a lot, there's going to be a lot of action in the third season and emotional journeys as well. So, you know, I can back off and see that kind of romantic view, you know, but if you want me to be completely honest and completely get you a feeling of what happens in the background, that's the version that's really what played out. It's interesting to hear so directly because when you and I had done a Megacon panel, it was in 2023 and things were in flux. and we were very much not able to have discussions about the present at all because the present was like a big shrug. And so I guess the lemonade out of these lemons is there's an embracing of self that had to come.

Starting point is 00:09:21 Yeah. That I think translates even beyond the story because you guys had to be born again. Yeah, spot on. Yeah. Actually, I want to sidestep and say we did not want to ask any questions about season three. So we thank you for hyping up season three for us. Just that much more. The Marvel Snipes.

Starting point is 00:09:38 I'm like, this is safe. He has acknowledged it and the audience is happy. Yeah, because, wow. We are well into it and we are trying our hardest to make it different than the other two, but that the same super bear devil-esque. Well, the attention to detail that you guys have paid attention to on the evolution as we've been talking about, and you mentioned how a lot of this, the grounding with Wilson Fiss started with the voice. and I've heard you speak about the development of his voice quite a bit.

Starting point is 00:10:09 And it's like so synonymous with the character that people even sometimes love doing impressions of it. And it got me thinking about how in episode five of season two, we go back to the first time we actually met Wilson. And when you look at this version of Fisk compared to who he is now, how do you think his voice is actually changed? Not just technically, but psychologically as well. I think that he's carried his aura to being a king. And so he has a more articulate way of speaking. And he's also older. So there's an age to him now than there wasn't in the original Netflix series,

Starting point is 00:10:57 which I think was really fun to play. And I think, I think, think he has this kind of overall feel of he's not he hasn't been on the rise for a while he's been right there at the peak you know

Starting point is 00:11:15 and he's living that it has changed in I think in subtle some and then I think in extreme ways he's killing more than he ever killed before you know there's a lot of people going

Starting point is 00:11:31 down you know whether he's to either his own hands or other hands. So that's a taints in that's kind of awful one. It also taints Vanessa as well. So, you know, they, I think if you're talking about change, I think it's that. I want to zoom from the internal work to the external work. I'm a 50 to 70 comic a week reader.

Starting point is 00:11:56 It's my full-time job. And it is the biggest passion of had since I was two. Yeah. And seeing these characters come to life is so, unique as someone that used to hide their Spider-Man shirt and now it's the culture. And to me, there's so much of the art influenced on the external work you're doing. I see John Amita Sr. I see Ron Garnie.

Starting point is 00:12:14 I see the reverence in David Max's beautiful Kabuki art. Is there any bit of you that when you're studying the physicality in say like a fight choreography scene or if you're finding like an emotional through line, do you reference the art as a storyboard? Do you have like an anchor to any artist? Well, I have an anchor to David and to Bill. You know, like both of them have been a real influence. And, you know, so I would say in the Netflix series, definitely more so I was depending on the comics.

Starting point is 00:12:53 And then just for like posture and just that kind of feel, like what you were just saying. thing, actually. So, but these days, it's, we, we've had this story now that we have to tell that's become, you know, it's our show is what it is, and it's a story. And that's influencing a lot of what I do these days. The intense posture that he has and the way that he means experience his emotion and stuff always reaches back. to what we did in the Netflix series. There were times I remember when I killed Eurek,

Starting point is 00:13:42 it was a very emotional thing. He was freaking out on top of him while he was choking. It's sort of like crying and had this kind of incredible, intense brutality combined when he was choking him out. it's that kind of emotional brain that that I've kind of run with when it comes to him

Starting point is 00:14:07 who comes to a kingpin for all these years now I think that influences a lot that's sorry I think that's influenced a lot by the art and also the way he was drawn in the feel of this kind of mystique that he has it's a very dangerous

Starting point is 00:14:26 mystique I think I don't think I could have ever created a character on my own without these great artists and writers before me for sure

Starting point is 00:14:42 you know there's no way so I constantly looking back at their art, I have it all over in my study and yes it's still a great influence

Starting point is 00:14:55 as a comic fan to translate Because when Kingpin walks the room, it's more terrifying than anyone in a suit or anyone like scorpion or rhino. There's a regality. And it translates from your reverence for it. It's beautiful. Oh, cool. Well, with the comic influences, there was this thing I really noticed in these past couple seasons that I talked about with some friends is how, at least on our end, it feels like we see Wilson laugh more. and even in the finale

Starting point is 00:15:26 before the big violence explodes there's that playful boo moment and it's terrifying because it feels like humor and rage seem to come from the same place within him what do you think Wilson Fiske actually finds funny and what do you think like his sense of humor

Starting point is 00:15:42 is telling about him? It's hard to call it humor though but I think he just thinks that most people are prophetic and he plays with them like he would have puppet and I think the only one that he doesn't do that with those stared devils

Starting point is 00:15:58 but I think everybody else including parent age and anybody else that tries to obstruct what he's trying to do he considered a toy that like a cat would bat around yeah and I the things you know all those little

Starting point is 00:16:17 things that come in between the stuff when we're fighting and stuff that's all kind of improvised that's never lifting down or anything. Let's try one like this, or let's try one like that. Or this could be really kind of cool and funny, simultaneously. You know, like the boo thing I thought would be

Starting point is 00:16:33 not only funny, but I thought it would be kind of cool. It was a perfect opportunity. The door opens, boo, and then it's punt him. It's like, you know, it's just a simple thing. But, you know, we take chances like that. You know, they're not like incredible big chances or not going to ruin the show or anything. But we hope that we have little nuances that help.

Starting point is 00:16:55 Because, you know, sometimes a little breath in between a bunch of violence when we're depicting it on the show is a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. That boo actually doesn't even feel out of character for where Wilson's at at that moment of time. So it is like a cool, dark sense of humor. Yeah. And also it lends this thing to the show because we are a more grounded kind of superhero show. it also tells the audience, you know, we do sometimes wink, you know, wink at the audience.

Starting point is 00:17:28 Yeah. Those winks can be a lot of fun. Yeah. You were speaking about the level of Matt Murdoch here. The thing that's been on my mind for a long time, this is a question, if there's any question I actually really wanted to inquire about, I'm like, this is the one, is that there's so much emphasis put on Matt Murdoch's relationship with God. Like there's guilt, mercy, judgment, punishment.

Starting point is 00:17:51 And as someone who has interesting relationships with Catholicism growing up, it's something I've always been compelled by. And Wilson, he feels like the shadow side of that for Matt in some ways. He doesn't ask for judgment, though. He definitely delivers it. And I'm curious, when you play him, do you think Wilson Fisk has any relationship with God? Does he believe in something above him?

Starting point is 00:18:13 Or is control the closest thing he has to faith? So yeah, you know, the thing you have to remember, and this is kind of heavy, so I'll just say this briefly, that in my studies throughout my career, I have come in touch with people that have done heinous crimes through other, through law enforcement and have helped you do it, retired law enforcement and stuff. stuff like that. And you realize that a lot of these people that belong where they are in prison, they have a different moral foundation than we do. You know, it's anybody that has any law enforcement person that has had to take a situation under control or somebody that would have to actually wound somebody that could have turned out to be favored or. You know, these are not the kind of people we're talking about. We're talking about people that are doing it to gain control over somebody

Starting point is 00:19:23 and then not try and save them, kill them after they have to control. Where law enforcement is supposed to do the opposite. Control the situation and then try to save a life if you have to, even if it's criminal. But killers, people that commit these hand as crimes are not like that. It's a different moral foundation. within that moral foundation, believe it or not, they can believe in God, God. Or have some kind of moral, what they think is a moral kind of compass.

Starting point is 00:19:59 But it's not what we know. It's a different moral foundation. It's not made out of goodness. It's made out of narcissism and whatever kinks they've developed over the world. So in that way, I think he would be a spiritual person. He would not be a Catholic because it would just remind him too much of there.

Starting point is 00:20:27 Yeah. And so he would find some kind of spiritual thing. Yeah. But it hasn't been acted upon in our show ever. And I can't remember a comic that talked about his, of being religion at all. There's not much directly.

Starting point is 00:20:49 There's some immortality concepts that are robbed because there's like the tablets and those things and that's the closest and that's more mystic. And that's, I was wondering the same. And speaking of mystic, you and I have this amazing conversation at Megacom because I'm such a big fan and it was the first time you spoke to it and I'm still very grateful. You told us how much you wanted to play Swamp Thing. And it was at the time the brand new announced DCU was just kicking off. And I've been wondering ever since the mysticism.

Starting point is 00:21:15 and the legends and all of the elements of Swamp Thing to me are this ability to weave the tapestry of storytelling itself into other things. What is it about Alec that calls to you specifically since it's such a broad story? It's almost storytelling itself. I didn't really read them, I think, until I was in my 30s, early 30s. And I was just taken by the narration. You know, it's so emotional in the storytelling through this man who's so. broken heart eating and just left out in the cold.

Starting point is 00:21:50 You know, it's just so moving the whole thing. I was always moved by swantham. I think that's the main attraction. I also think that, you know, I'm really well versed in that kind of stuff. I could create a swamp thing that nobody would expect. You know, I could take it off the page and make it to another kind of kind of character. I know that I could have done it a bunch of times with other characters in my career,

Starting point is 00:22:18 and I would just, it would be a feast to be able to be a swamp thing. And I think it, you know, it would be great if they gave me a shot. They won't. But it would be, I think it'd be smarter than the Jim Ler shot, but that they won't. I kind of work there.

Starting point is 00:22:39 I'm going to send as many emails as I can. I'm in their HBO show. I'm their comic correspondent. So James is getting another email. I'm sure he's gotten a couple, but now I've got video. Yeah, no, I just think that I think I've proven in my career that I can be pretty passionate about the things that I get involved in the productions. And I think I always do my job properly with service the story the best I am. And, yeah, I think I would do the sentence for something like that.

Starting point is 00:23:09 But it's interesting. I immediately thought of the cell. What's that? I immediately thought of the cell and your, you're, you're. commitment into that world or the, to me, the visuals and the elements of the cell, but on a more spiritual level and the dedication and investment to me, as soon as you set it on stage, I was like, well, that makes sense. Like, it was a very like, oh, of course. And then the musicality of Swamping in his sorrow, the pain of Wilson translates to the pain of Alec to me

Starting point is 00:23:33 in a very interestingly above ground way. Yeah. I think one of the things that's always turn me on when I've seen comic films that are made from the comics. One of the things that turn me on the best is when they're either the director or the actors in it are personalizing in some way this story that comes, but the origin is a comic. But they're taking it, they're taking the story and they're taking it to this kind of cinematic level. And the characterizations are so unique, but somehow tonally and kind of visually fit the original but also is different in the way. I think those are the ones that turn me on the most.

Starting point is 00:24:20 Those kind of, when they're made like that, comic movies. When they try to do it completely exactly like the comics, I find that less inventive. But it has to remind you in like a, in your soul that of the comic, the original comic. And if you can do that and create something that's kind of something nobody ever thought of, it's basically like another artist coming in and drawing Spider-Man or Batman. You know, and I love that because they're the greatest ones, the greatest graphic artists that draw their own type of characters.

Starting point is 00:25:00 They don't lose that soul of the original character. But yet you're looking at something completely reme. I love that. In that same vein, I completely agree because the magic of comics to me is that you're sharing almost two souls. Like I love movies and television, but it's many directors, writers, grips. There's, there's so many names. And to me, an artist and a writer bearing their soul in a comic is so much closer to like the source. There's something so unique.

Starting point is 00:25:26 And with you playing a character that is so synonymous to the power of comic books, to me, the kingpin represents this, this ability to flow in and out of Spider-Man and Daredevil and TV and film. He works in so many mediums. When you see other adaptations like Spider-Verse or, you know, the Daredevil with Ben Affleck, when you play the video game, the PS5 game, is there a part of you that connects to the Wilson in those formats, like an Echo or like a remix to a favorite song? Or like, how does it feel as someone portraying him to see other versions of that that

Starting point is 00:26:00 you've lived in? Yeah, I love it. I mean, we didn't react Sony thing that he did the, the animation. the voice he did the I loved that any anybody Michael Clark Duncan's Kingpin I love that I watched I love that movie I know a lot of people didn't like it but I thought it was cool but I like comics yeah yeah no it's completely enjoyable to watch other people

Starting point is 00:26:28 do similar stuff or take what was the origin story that I had and go in their direction with you know it's like a great kind of Cool. Yeah. I love hearing about the process that you've done with this character because it's interesting when I hear you and other interviews speak about, you know, of course, drawing from comic material, but then some personal experiences. And one of the things that can be synonymous with Kingpin, of course, can be his size.

Starting point is 00:26:55 And I heard you speak not long ago about, and I completely relate with this, actually, is the personal childhood wounds of being bullied overweight and learning how to overcome that and learning to fight back. And Fiscus size is usually framed as power. Like he enters a room communicates danger. But I'm curious, how do you interpret that physicality from the inside? Is his size purely a source of strength to him? Or is there an insecurity underneath it that he's turned into armor?

Starting point is 00:27:27 We're hitting on a little bit in season three. Oh. Yeah. So I have to be careful what I talk about. But there is a thought. That when he was young, his side and his neighbor is what led him into the dark side. Yeah. We're exploring that as a fragment of the third season, very small little interjection.

Starting point is 00:28:06 Well, fuck. That sounds like that. I'm excited to explore that. Yeah, that's something I very much like, and I heard you speaking on them. Like, oh, I get that feeling. I understand it. So I'm looking forward to how that's explored. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:20 And my last question, that's a safe one. It's more about giving my friends some flowers. I've known Justin and Aaron for years in real life. And I love those guys. I love those two guys, man. Yeah. And I actually met them through Lou Pucci, who is cool to see you reunite with from the Thumb Sucker days. Also, another lovely guy, Lou.

Starting point is 00:28:39 Yeah. No, when Justin, Aaron and I are on a set together, we just have an absolute blast. You know, we've spent a lot of time together on this, on third season. We just had a particular thing to do that was very hard. And we pulled it off, I think. These guys are so smart. They're so in creative on set. We're so open.

Starting point is 00:29:09 and open-minded and, you know, I can't say enough about those two directors. Yeah. I'm so proud of them and I was so happy after a full season of hearing Adam it being Lou in a Cage. So I just wanted to get some love to those guys. And it's been an absolute honor, man. I love to hear that you're as big of a comic fan as it comes across, seeing you play Thor before Chris Hemsworth was an honor back in the day.

Starting point is 00:29:33 And now you are absolutely kingpin man. So it's wonderful to see a comic fan get to play in the sandbox. we all dreamed of his kids. And I'm going to make some swamp thing calls as much as I can. Yeah. And if I can just say that before we head out, you've been a part of my life since I was born. You know, like from men in black, my mom introduced me to law and order criminal intent when it was airing the cell. You brought up earlier.

Starting point is 00:29:57 Like you've just been part of it. And one of the things I loved about senior career so much is that you've, a lot of people by this point, they might fade. and you just seem to get more into the zeitgeist and you continue to experiment and it's been just so awesome to see your career get even more blossoming as the years have gone on. So thank you for your direction. You know, one of the things about talking to guys like you

Starting point is 00:30:23 and meeting people at, like, you know, is, I don't really reflect a lot back on my career You know, I kind of move forward always. I feel like my creative side is still unfinished in a lot of ways, and I'm still trying to figure it out and get it right. And so that keeps me pretty busy. And then I have children and a wife and a life. And when I do things like you just said,

Starting point is 00:31:04 and when I hear things from the fans that are similar in the way, it makes me look back at my career. And it makes me look back at everything that everybody's taught me and everything I've learned and everything I've tried to execute. And it's a really, really nice thing. So I appreciate you saying that very much. Well, thank you. Thank you for the generosity of your time.

Starting point is 00:31:34 and everything you've contributed to do. And thank you, Nekam and Cecilie one more time. You'd be well today. Thank you. Can't wait for season three. Can't wait for season three. Thanks so much for your time. And your work, man. Never doing a boring performance means a lot to us

Starting point is 00:31:46 because we had to watch a lot of stuff. So when it actually is investable, it means a lot to us. Well, that's good. I appreciate that. Awesome. Thank you, guys. Thank you, man.

The Reel Rejects - MEETING KINGPIN! Vincent D’Onofrio Gets Candid About Daredevil Born Again & His DARK Psychology!

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