The Reel Rejects - X-MEN 97 Spoiler Deep Dive w/ Series Writer: Gambit's Fate, Hidden Easter Egg, Wolverine & Cameos

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Welcome back, Reject Nation! In today's episode of "That's a Great Question with Coy Jandreau," we have an exclusive deep dive into "X-Men 97" with one of the main writers of the series, Charley Feldman - who was first brought on Beau Demayo. This spoiler-heavy interview covers everything from Gambit's death, Wolverine's journey, epic cameos, and hidden Easter eggs. Get ready for an in-depth exploration of the continuation of the beloved "X-Men: The Animated Series" on Disney+. We dive into Exclusive Easter eggs and behind-the-scenes secrets from "X-Men 97", Deep dive into character arcs and major comic moments, Discussion on themes of AI, politics, and society in "X-Men 97", The creative process and challenges of adapting iconic storylines, The inspiration behind "X-Men 97", How the writers room brought the series to life, Deleted scenes and why they didn't make the cut, The impact of "X-Men: The Animated Series" on the new show, The evolution of characters like Gambit, Rogue, Cyclops, and Wolverine, Insights into future episodes and potential storylines,  "X-Men 97" continues the story of the iconic "X-Men: The Animated Series," bringing back fan-favorite characters and storylines with a modern twist. The series features cameos from Spider-Man (Peter Parker) & Mary Jane Watson from the 90s cartoon, En Sabah Nur (Apocalypse), Iron Man, Captain America, Daredevil, Black Panther, Magik, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Phoenix, and more. The epic finale showcases a showdown between the X-Men and villains like Bastion & Mr. Sinister, leading to powerful storylines between Cyclops, Jean Grey, and Cable. Full Cast of Characters include Magneto, Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Storm, Beast, Gambit, Rogue Mr. Sinister, Jubilee, Bishop, Morph, Firestorm, En Sabah Nur (Apocalypse), & Bastion With Marvel Phase 5 introducing Deadpool & Wolverine (featuring the return of Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds) and the upcoming Fantastic Four movie, "X-Men 97" sets the stage for exciting new developments in the MCU. Get more exclusive content at:https://www.patreon.com/thereelrejects Support The Channel By Getting Some REEL REJECTS Aparrel! https://www.rejectnationshop.com/ Head Editor: https://www.instagram.com/praperhq/?hl=en Co-Editor: https://x.com/nerdchronic?lang=en Executive Producer: Greg Alba Executive Producer: Multihouse  Host: Coy Jandreau  Production Assistants: John Humphrey & Juliana Perez  POWERED BY @GFUEL Visit https://gfuel.ly/3wD5Ygo and use code REJECTNATION for 20% off select tubs!! Music In Video: Airport Lounge - Disco Ultralounge by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ Ask Us A QUESTION On CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/thereelrejects Follow TheReelRejects On FACEBOOK, TWITTER, & INSTAGRAM:  FB:  https://www.facebook.com/TheReelRejects/ INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/reelrejects/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thereelrejects Follow GREG ON INSTAGRAM & TWITTER: INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thegregalba/ TWITTER:  https://twitter.com/thegregalba Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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All between discoveries in Ensenada and even overnights in Cabo. You've never done Mexico like this. Book your Boulder Baja adventure from Los Angeles today. Come seek the Royal Caribbean. Itineraries vary by sale date. Ships Registry Bahamas. Citizens of the Reject Nation, this is, that's a great question with Coy Gondro. I'm your host, Coy Jondro, and I am here today with the one, the only, the Charlie Feldman,

and they're one of the most essential parts of one of the most important shows in my life, X-Men 97. I'm so excited that today, not only do we talk about an exclusive Easter egg that no one knows about yet, not only do we talk about deleted scenes that didn't make the cut, but we have a full spoiler conversation, deep diving into individual characters, in arcs, in comic moments. This is the type of conversation comic fans want to have, that cartoon fans want to have,

that fans of animation and translating things want to have. This conversation meant the world to me, and this is also thanks to Multihouse. We're here in the Preserve L.A. space, which is home to 6,500 trees and plants, and it is genuinely one of my favorite places to film anything creative

because it feels fulfilling. So this conversation meant a lot, and I'm so excited to dive in. Charlie was the first writer brought on to the show that was being run by Bo DeMayo and joining a few writers, this writer's room was tiny, want to give some love to J.B. as well. I've met him yet, but I'm going to J.B. I'll find you. And honestly, to find out how much every single member of this team loved X-Men means they didn't trick us because it was as good as it felt to love the X-Men through this show. So I just want to appreciate each and every one of the creative team on this. Without further ado, sitting down with Charlie Feldman, let's get into it.

here with Charlie Feldman, writer of X-Men 97, supervising producer of X-Men 97, and Friend of Me, IRL. I am so excited to be here with, that's a great question, talk to someone that I genuinely enjoy in regular life, who has made one of my favorite adaptations of one of the most important things to me in my life, the X-Men. How are you doing today? I kind of want to do a Paul Rudd, like, hey, look at us. Look at us. Who would have thought? Who'd have thought? Twelve years in the making, either side of the table. Talking X-Men. Of all things.

But we did before. Off camera. Well, not just on camera. I distinctly remember. It was you, me, and I forgot who else. I think Alicia Munro was, Malone. Malone. Yes.

Malone was hosting, and we were talking X-Men and what we would want to see, and we were both pitching on it. Yeah. Just to be here now. We were figuratively pitching on a show you've now written a season. Like literally pitched on. So full credit there. Pitching a show that you actually pitched on and then wrote for.

And I want to start with... Never escapes me, by the way. Like, this, the amount of people have been very kind to say any other reason, but luck, truly luck, a supreme amount of luck to be in this position. And I am always and forever humbled and grateful for it. It's, uh, now I'm jumping ahead. No, no, no. And I want people to understand how much you love X-Men because I think that's the thing

this show was able to translate through the panels. Like, I think the love is in every frame. And you loving X-Men is a parent. So I do want to say, how did you come across, what was your first foray into X-Mindom? It literally was X-Men the Animated Series. It was absolutely my first experience with it. I was already a huge fan of Batman the Animated Series. And then when X-Men came out, my brother and I religiously would Saturday mornings,

as we all did in the very cliche sense, we'd have the bowl and we'd eat. And I would be very upset if they didn't release it in the correct order because there so many to be continued. And I swear to God, the Falling Saga was every single weekend in an indifferent order. And I was so confused, but it was so compelling and so, and the funny thing is Batman the series didn't get me into Batman comics or comics in general, but X-Men did. And I'm not sure what it is about it, except for the fact that it felt like you were a part of a team and who, when they're younger, doesn't want to feel like there's something greater. Like Batman, Rich Man. He's doing all solving. He's over there. He's doing great. He's the

and I want to see what he does, but X-Men, you feel like, well, I will go through puberty eventually, and maybe my mutant power will manifest. And anyway, so I'm there sitting and watching it, and I picked up a comic book not too long after. My very best friend at the time, Ben, he had an older brother, and it's always the older brother that gives you the goods. He's like, which comic of the X-Men would you like? And I chose, I looked this up, because I wish I had this memory, but I don't. It was issued two. 28. It came out in 1994, and you'll remember it. Sabretooth is about, like, to go and claws out a white, white's background of the cover with Gene Gray underneath him, and the entire thing is

about reforming Sabretooth, which couldn't be more X-Men than trying to perform in any way. But I was so compelled by not only the cover art and just the dynamic look of it, but the characterization and Jubilee is really early on in the comic, and she, like I just seen in the cartoon, so I've got this connection, this through line between the show and the comics to know that, oh, this can be in so many different mediums

and have the same sort of compulsion of me to want to explore all of it. It was powerful. And now I'm on the back end of that, which is absurd. And the timing of that, I just want to speak to is, if memory serves,

that was two and a half years in the Jim Lee run, because that would have been 93. I don't think it was Jim Lee. But Jim Lee started X-Men 1 in 91, if I remember correctly, for that second title. Because it was uncanny X-Men in 62, and then in 91 he got his own title that was running Claremont Jim Lee. So it would have been two and a half years into that if it was issued 28. It was Argentinianza. I want to say Nisci.

Yeah, Nassjenza? Yes. So, yes, who was part of how Deadpool started, which is all 90s stuff. So that would have been in 93, 94, maybe. And you're writing stuff based around 97. So I just want to give some crazy synchronicity. That's crazy that the thing that inspired you to pick up your first comic is the era that you're modeling these characters after. Because I think that's really unique.

A lot of people discover a character like in the Stanley Steve Dicko era. They wouldn't be writing in that style today. Absolutely. And the virtue of the show and certainly the comics of the era, you're all building off what Claremont did, who's building off what Stanley did and Kirby did. So you're jumping into this story tradition that I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm. know this has been said several times by smarter people than I, but you're in sort of a storytelling tradition that is likened to mythology or folklore. It's this modern storytelling that is so plastic in what you can make of it.

You have to have these specific characters to make it specifically X-Men or specifically the Avengers, specifically the Justice League, but you're telling them in different permutations that reflect an era. And so when we were writing the show, certainly if it's got to be 97, well, it's got to reflect what was going on in 97 in the comics and in society, but also we can't leave modernity behind because that's how we're living and how we're thinking right now. And now we're getting into how we adapted and looked at the storytelling of it, but you're trying to keep all of these eras in mind. The traditional era, the story that you're, the stream you're stepping into that comes with all the story behind it.

And that was definitely part of the challenge is to not affect the stream too much. Sure. Because I think people would have rebelled. I don't think they would have enjoyed it as much as they do if we were just a bad cover band. Yeah. It had to hit the right notes and be able to, oh, this is a new singer singing, but I love this song. So that's sort of the pressure on our backs was like, hey, don't make a sour note here. Now, the sequel reboot is one of the near impossible things to do correctly, but when done

correctly, it like Creed, I think is one of the great examples of modernizing, keeping the story going, but also it's a new audience. And I want to talk more about that as we get into the making of the show, but I got to go to a certain couple episode moments. Like Gambit is the thing that I think surprised every one. one to the scale of the blip in Marvel. And it doesn't happen often where the stakes feel real. And I remember the finale.

And by the way, I want to give some love to your whole team. Please. Every single person that I've known to have worked in the show has reached out in a way of thank you for what you're doing. And it's been this aura boris and me be like, no, thank you. And I've never felt such consistent gratitude from a creative team for our input and then back. And then all of it being like, but no, X-Men. So the whole team, while talking about them, I do want to get into how the show got made the process, but in the gambit of it all, I really have to know how early the decision was made to go, oh, no, no, he's staying dead.

And to make it that mid-season moment that left the rest of the season at such a high stake, because I was saying the finale, we thought, like, Nightcrawler might buy it. We thought, rogue, because of the stakes being so real, it actually made the stakes real for everyone else. And certainly you know what happens in comics. Right. Everyone dies. Especially, yeah, Nightcrawler specifically in that moment could have. So let me tell you, three years ago when I first started on X-Men 97 as a writer and a producer, I knew when that episode was coming, what was going to happen? It wasn't exactly as happened.

We did that in the room, figuring out exactly. how far we would go with Gambit. But when we made that very final decision, I had to carry that and meet people who would tell me, oh, gamut is my favorite X-Men. Like, Remy means something to me. The thief with the heart of gold. And I had to be like, yep, we all love him.

And we do. I mean, I think we gave him one of the greatest deaths scenes I've seen in a long time. I couldn't presume to put it at like Tony's death in the MCU, but I think it did because of the past that that character, the nostalgia he claims, but also just I hope we made you fall in love with them in the first four episodes. So even people who do not come with the history and the longing and the loving and the appreciation or the identifying with the character would be brought up to speak. And that's sort of how we approached all of it, was like, we didn't want to leave anyone behind in the narrative because then we're not being good entertainers and being good writers.

So to choose a character like Gamet that has so much affection was, I think, a master's stroke from Bo. And I think why Bo got the job in the first place is to have that devastation in the middle. And I know he's talked about before in interviews about the 9-11 of it all, how we all. thought we were safe in the 90s, in certain regards. And I don't know about certain quarters, privileged quarters. Hindsight's a hell of a thing. Truly that. But once this happened, you couldn't go back from.

We talk all the time in talking about the MCU where you've got canon events that cannot be changed. You've got the watcher looking down and confirming such nexus points. But truly, that is in our own history. That's what we can emotionally latch on. to. And certainly as writers, we want to make it feel as personal as possible. We are taking from personal things in our lives, things we've experienced, and the common history we all share. Otherwise, it's not going to make any sort of impact. So I credit to him to make that

the midpoint. Yeah. And then we have to pay that off. And it's all the sort of Danumont, the end result of that is the back half. And I'm so happy that people were willing to go, that fans were willing to go there with us. Because there was, when you're in the vacuum of writing such a thing, you as a fan inside the house, which everyone on the team ends, again, we need to stop cold this interview to just say top to bottom fans on this team, top to bottom, the best in the animation industry. I have just blissfully been in this, specifically in animation, since 2017 is when I broke in. My first staffing was the Owl House and what a fortuitous lucky show to be starting off with in a staffing.

So when I tell you, these are the best board artists, the best background artists, the best revisionist, color, working with Studio Mirror, doing the best on the back end of things, the best editors, and Michelle are incredible, the best directors, Emmett Yonamura and Chase Conley, led by Jake. It's, I think lots of things get called a dream team, but this really might have been a dream team and to collaborate with them because even more than live action, animation is a collaboration. Every single point, we certainly started off as writers, but board artists plus the hell out of everything. You describe an action sequence to the best of your ability. And then you put it in the hands of these board artists, and you get storm in the desert, making sand into glass.

You get, I'm very, very proud of episode three, very, very proud of Firemade Flesh. And to have written the astral plane scene and then seen what they did with it was transcendent. And the fact the first time I saw it in its full form was at the El Capitan. Like, I really did cry. That's so special.

Also, thank you for confirming. That was her turning that into glass. Yes. So many people have been arguing with me that it was her using her ice powers. And I was like, no, when sand is heated. And it's been, thank you. That's personal.

That's a personal way. Oh, no, I've stepped on aside, but it is the correct side. I am sorry. No, that is what you wrote, therefore correct. I love what reverence everyone clearly. had. And that shows in building Gambit back up. Yeah. And I think the best stories do that thing where you don't realize they've made you love someone even more right before they kill them.

Comics do it, movies do it. And I love that you guys did that with Gambit because not only is he perfect for this story, not only does that impact every member and especially give you some unique rogue moments, but it's also one of the most 90s characters, which allows the character of 97 to be important. Because I feel like 97 is in the title, and it's also a supporting character of the show, and I think Gambit is amongst the most 90s entities, especially in Wardrobe. But I honestly think the Gambit death

is up there with Tony Stark. It is up there with, I mean, Ben Parker is the only character I think actually stays dead. Because it used to be, we said like Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacey. And I love Spider-Gwen, but I'm glad it's not Gwen that's back, it's alternate universe quit. But Gambit, I've really appreciated this surge of

familiarity with this character that I never felt God is due in other mediums. When you guys made your roster, what was it like choosing which equalizers to play? Was it based on the story and thematic elements? Or did you guys go from a character standpoint and build your story? Chicken or egg? I can't speak for all Reinhers when they come into adaptations, especially of properties you deeply love.

But just like all fans out there, you have your favorites. Yeah. So whoever is at the helm of the thing, you're going to push your favorites to the front. Sure. So my, the most important part of my job as a writer is to certainly try to make the best story possible, but also to facilitate what the showrunner wants and is most important. So the most important characters for, oh, I think I can say, were Gene and Cyclops and certainly Magneto. That was certainly the focus. And then I come in and bring my die-hard love for Rogue. and I sort of threw my weight around.

It was just like, we need to make sure that rogue gets your due. We need to make sure also a big storm fan. Obviously, that's one of the reasons I was completely honored with writing a lot of her story and to write life, death was a huge privilege and one that I hope I lived up to a little. Oh, absolutely. Life death. I mean, you and I have talked life death. Yes, I know.

Life death is a story. It's probably, man, I want to be not hyperbolic. I want to make sure this is fair. Storm is in my top three, if not my favorite X-Men. And I would say Life-Death is a comic that I don't just recommend to Storm fans.

It's a comic that if someone says they don't like comics I offer up. So Life-Deaf is the unique, you know, convergence of favorite character and a favorite arc that is approachable to everyone. And Life-Death is actually my next question. I was wondering,

with your reverence of life-death, and with the amount of time you've now spent in it, not as a fan, did any of the elements that are so existential and so kind of personal to the reader, that's one of those books that I love that it's a reflection of you. Have any of those changed

because you've lived in it for longer? Okay, so I have to be careful here because, and I think this is every writer in every sort of medium. You, myself, I'm the keeper of what could have been, what once, what had to be, had to be cut for time, for content, for many other reasons. So I know things that were really, really important to me that were darlings that were killed. So I, but also at the end of day,

it doesn't matter. The enjoyment of it is so humbling and palpable from fans that it doesn't matter what I know and what I was hoping for. But a thing that I will say and we'll share behind the scenes a bit is something that was important to me when reading life death is I through my life struggle with depression and life death is about a lot of things but I certainly the romance as a part of it is about depression about a woman a goddess who you can see as someone who's somewhat of a storm a lot of people call overpowered which I understand because as an mega level that is sort of there is kind of the oh and O. Literally, there's no limit on that power.

Right. But what does that do to the very human heart within? I think there's this sense of I have to be everything to everyone. I have to, the pressure on that. This is something obviously I cannot speak to, and something that informed and should inform the character is the experience of blackness, that that's integral to her character. So much debate should be had of whether I'm,

should have had that responsibility, but I tried to honor that, read as much as I could, interview as much as I could. And here, specifically black women in talking about black excellence and what it means to them and the pressure it puts on them. I remember during the last election cycle, there's a thing like black women will save us. And then you have storm. Storm will save us. Storm will come in and be like, show us the forecast and sort of swoop in and save the day, and the pressure that gives to anyone, regardless of race, when you are at a very high level, the burnout of that, it's a different sort of depression, I think, where you have these expectations put on you, things that are part of your identity that are sort of conflated

with that. So you have your inner expectations, you've got the outer expectations of your team and the world. And as much as I could put that into life to have, I wanted to. I, I, we had her in bed, like that first panel in Lifethe, where it's like the sea of a white sheet. And that's how depression certainly feels to me, where it's just all bed all the time. You are in this greater, like, a desert of sheet. And the mirroring in the desert is beautiful, by the way.

I love that the sheets. I mean, like, that's how I interpret it. I love that enveloping whiteness was mirrored with the enveloping yellows and browns of the overwhelming. And, like, I thought that was such. beautiful visual metaphor to translate because the comic always felt hot like the comic to me when I read that book I feel a temperate change I always feel an overwhelm of like when you're in the desert you can't breathe yes and to me depression feels like someone sitting on your chest so I love

the desert setting and I thought what you guys did with that was oppressive heat and I love that it felt like that even in the bed which is a place of comfort generally yes so it's playing with the what's comfort versus what's oppression and I also feel like that's depression that's depression It's also what the story's about, what oppression is. I mean, that's the X-Men. But with life-death, I really love that you told a story that is so existential, and you used existential tropes and comic book tropes, but in new ways. And so I think that, you know, the killing your darlings,

I do think to adjust to any medium, you have to do that. But I think that that's going to get more people to read the comics. That's the most important thing to get people towards the comics. That is literally what got me in comments was the original. the Lee Wals, Larry Houston, they are, I can't believe I had the opportunity over Zoom and then in a repetitive, like I just fan-boying at them at the premiere just to be like, you don't understand. My life would be different. The trajectory of my life, comics are such a core of my being. And it wouldn't have, I don't know if it wouldn't have happened, but I think it wouldn't have happened without X-Men the Animated Series. So to maybe be that for it. an upcoming generation. God, we want to read these comics because there's only so much

we can do with 10 episodes. So please go to the Claremont era. Please go to the Bendis era, which is my favorite. Slept on comparatively. I mean, obviously, Claremont's God. But Benz's era. These are all gods.

I mean, I... The Morrison era is so weird and I love that you touched on it and gave people a little in, ease for extinctions. Like, oh, hey, and then it's scampered away. And I think that's what, and I want to get to that

when we get into the second half of this conversation, but I think that what X-Men did, and I love what you said at the top, that Batman is a character you watch, X-Men is a character you want to be. And I really feel like the X-Men comics are more approachable to people

that are outside of comics because you're in the story. And ironically, because we've talked about how this paralleled our old life. When we were at Screen Junkies, they, the creators of the X-Men show, came to one of our movie fights live. And I remember I defended, but I remember I defended Batman

the animated series as the best animated show of all time against X-Men. And I remember they had followed me on Twitter and unfollowed me. because I like fought so, and it hurt me so bad because I was like, it's just a game, I didn't mean to, but I will say, on the record, as much as that hurt, because of X-Men 97, I put this about Batman now.

Because of what you and the team has done. That's true. That's recency bias, and I love you and I appreciate it. Because I think Batman, the differences, they're both tense, but the difference is what this has done is it's allowed people to go. There's more story to tell. And I do feel like Batman the anime series absolutely open that door. but X-Men encourages that door.

Absolutely. Like, Batman will show you the door. You guys go through the door. And I really think Life Death's a great example of that. I also think Bastion's a great example of that. I want to talk about Bastion, because Bastion's a character I never thought it's he adapted. Bastion's a character I never thought would necessarily work adapted.

And Bastion's a character that, if written incorrectly, is like 5,000 characters instead of like one character. So Bastion, I want to know when you're articulating that kind of language, when you're playing a manipulator sociopath that has empathy because of his circumstance, not because of any of his choices. What was it like hearing the dialogue that had to walk that fine line for the first time delivered by Theo

James? Because that's one of my favorite vocal performances ever. What a great casting decision, right? And directed by Meredith, who led our entire... I mean, what a deep bench is our voice actors. You've got Lenore, who is now a dear friend, and I can't believe

I can text rogue, can I just say? I don't want to veer off from Bastion too much, but like, between Matthew and Holly and bringing Allison back in the way we did, and I'm going to, Ray and Jennifer, who is such a kind and just hearing the monologue in episode three, like, come out of her mouth was also a really emotional moment. But with Bastion, with Theo James, I was so impressed, because all my experience with him was White Lotus. I didn't know he had that in him. And especially how we were conceiving of Bastion's characterization was very much

like a little bit of like the throwback. He's got some jazz in them. He's got some jazz. But it's this understanding of an America that never was. Yeah. But is in the imaginations of people who want it to have been just a time of prosperity and he was sort of emblematic of that. And that's sort of what I was talking about with the trying to honor the comics as

much as we could, but also given what we're experiencing now, marrying the two in a way that doesn't break anything. I love that, yeah. And this is, I am going to get a little tangential here, but I would be remiss to say, like, when you and I have talked shit about previous X-Men adaptations, I've been thinking a lot about this. When they, there are bits and pieces of all the X-Men movies specifically that I love.

But where they, none of them have ever fully worked for me is in specific characters, the meant a lot to me, because we all have our favorites, that get broken. If you break what the essential part of a character is, I don't think the audience and the fan follows you. It's not the character anymore. There has to be a line in the sand where it's not the character, it's a what if. There has to be a line. Exactly.

But the stories are more malleable. The movies did this, and we've done this where obviously we're not adhering directly. We're mish-mashing things. We're retconning things a little bit. But we never, I hope, did that too much with the characters. I remember being a kid and watching a great performance by Anna Paquin, but what they did with Rogue broke the character for me. And not even just that they nerfed her powers,

but she just didn't have the joie de vivre. She didn't have that spunk that was so much a part of her character. They got the torment without the joy, without the charm. And when Bastion or any character in our first season, we just made sure to honor what these characters what their souls were, I like to think. So with Bastion, I do agree there is that nostalgia is toxic element because I do think there's something that we're living through right now

because of trauma where we look to the past as an escape as opposed to what it actually was. Like rose-colored glasses have never been more prevalent in the back of our heads. And it's really fascinating with a character like Bastion who not only represents the nostalgia for a bygone time, but also a bygone evolution. Like, he is trying to go back to... He was always an inaccuritism, too.

Because he's such well ahead of its time being Nimrod, being... He's always a futurist that thinks the past is better. It's this weird, like, nexus of retrofuturism and also, like, actual future that he's trying to mold in his own image very literally. And in being a government stooge is especially ironic. Because I've always thought the government did the best,

this is a little political. But the X-Men isn't. The non-political X-Men that I read, I always think it's interesting. that the government is working to hold back progress as much as possible, which I feel represents a country I live in. And I think that the character of Bastion represents that as a singular entity. And I always love that Bastion used the government and used policy to get his way while the X-Men used vigilanteism in a way to get progress. So when you're

writing that fine line between how do we make sure he stays offensive but also believable and not mustache twirling. Because when you've got characters that represent aggressive progress and you've got something that's trying to hinder it, how do you find that line between like, I'm the bad guy?

Because he didn't feel like you had some empathy for him, whether it was his mom, whether it was some of his dialogue. How did you find that in the dialogue before it became a performance? Well, the mom aspect is a grounding element and something I think is essential

to writing any good villain. You don't have to have a mom or a mom who dies, but or is hurt. But I do think having a little, shred of humanity in there is important, especially since he's sort of trying to speak for humanity, even though he is different. And the tragedy of a bastion to me is he's not able to recognize that he is different and that should be celebrated. He is very purposefully sort of a shadow mirror to our mutants who, it's happenstance. You are a mutant by virtue of your birth,

and you cannot change that. And Bastion has the exact same experience. He didn't choose to be this way. He exists this way. And that's so tragic that he's willing to hate himself, not willing. He hates himself. But he's not able to reckon with that in a way that lifts people up around him. Instead, it sort of like curdles into this black hole of,

I am going to change everything without even looking at myself. because for him, it's way easier to go on this campaign than go to therapy. But that's not a good television show, as we said, Bastion to therapy. We need to have him process all of this self-hatred in just such a way. And there has been some discussion. It's very interesting being on this side of the fan divide where I encourage deeply people having criticism, certainly, please assess it amongst yourselves and have theories. That's the fun of it.

Then you'll be on this side, and you'll recognize that they aren't seeing certain things that you have sort of set up, and they're seeing sometimes even better things. It's sort of taking art out of the hands of the artist that I think is really fun, where it is, we can say what our intent was, but it's not ours at a certain point. Like, this is a topic that I am going to shove in inorganically,

but is very fascinating to me about Morp and Wolverine. Bowes recently talked about confirmation about Morph expressing his feelings to Wolverine in that moment. But in talking to JP, who is an incredible voice actor, I love working with JP. He sees the opposite. Sees the opposite. And I think they're both right. That's what I love about interpretation of art. Art isn't meant to be linear or it's a word on a wall.

And even that's interpretive. It's not, to me, supposed to be about even the creator to the end of the creation. I think the creation should live in the eye of a beholder, but not to the point where they have say that changes the creator's intent. I think they should both coexist. Authorship is certainly very important. We're going to personal places and we're taking from things that are very specific. and the more specific I think you are as a writer, the more universal it gets is a really strange,

like, I don't know if that's a contradiction or a paradox, probably not. English teachers amongst you can argue in the comments. Probably my husband will argue with me. But it is this thing where authorial intent is one thing and then it is open to interpretation and they're both to me correct. there has to be some level of, to keep the plot understandable,

it has to be clear what we're trying to do in some regards. But something like the motivation of a character, I love keeping that a little murky. Yeah. Because you have an artist like JP coming in and is seeing Morp saying, so if people don't know, Beau suggested that he is confessing his feelings, and JP is suggesting that Morph is seeing his friend,

his best friend in an incredibly vulnerable moment where his adamantium skeleton is ripped out of his body and he knows exactly what his buddy needs. Yeah. And he does love him and maybe there is some romance a part of it. I don't want to take out the sort of queer undertones of it, but it's also a friendship that is very, very deep and profound. And speaking of things that like we should not reach out and talk to. the other side of the fandom often,

but I have been stewing because there's an Easter egg that I loved putting in, that no one has clocked yet. What? Can I... It is not important... Bring it, I want to know what I missed. It is not important whatsoever.

This is the most geeky thing I will maybe say today. But the scene, I'm so glad everyone clocked the homeronisism in the shower seed, but it's a very specific reference, you guys. I'm a huge fan. All of Episode 3 is Emmett, the director,

and I, bringing our love of horror movies into this episode, into Inferno. And so it's a very specific scene that comes out of Nightmare and Elm Street 2, Freddy's Revenge. I know the scene, but I did not... Where Mark Patton is literally in the showers with Freddy's claw on his hand,

like Wolverine's claw. It's a shot for shot recreation, and no one's clocked it, which I get, you're not exactly thinking of, I'm not thinking nightmare when I'm watching X-Men, but now I am. But it is a very famously, so there's an incredible documentary called Scream Queens about this movie, how there are very, it's not even subtext, it's the text of being queer. So we are playing with that, and as writers were doing layers of that with Morp's character. We didn't really get very into it, but that scene specifically. This is my exclusive for you.

Please, that's amazing. I love knowing there's an Easter egg that that is obvious, that the entire internet. Like, when it's one that's like, oh, there's a QR code in seven frames, I'm not like, oh, thanks. But when it's something that is a frame-for-frame recreation of an iconic moment for an iconic moment reference, that's amazing. A lot of people didn't see the sequel to Neuridome Street, and I get that. I think that's fair. But like, this is your cue to go and watch that. Play it back.

We'll do a little side-by-side. That makes me so happy. Even the highs and lows. I love when it goes low. I love lowbrow horror as much as I love highbrow horror. Give me an 824 Ariassar and then give me some schlok. Yes, back to back to make them both better. Love it.

While we're on Easter eggs, and I love that there was one right off the top that was never caught or not seen yet, is there any moment that you personally added that was a comic reference that you remember as a kid loving and being shocked that you were able to give to others? Oh my God, I love this question. there are so many but I was given inferno which was incredible to me and let me just say

I this is another thing of where I know things and wanted things and some things couldn't happen we had 10 episodes and I found recently my pitch to like why Inferno should be a part one and a part two but it couldn't work with what had to happen it couldn't work

and it hurts me but it is what had to happen so truly three was a joy and a dream but also a complicated maneuver to get an entire just event in one and one and you're trying to honor what that was like i i hope people didn't mind too much because iliana resputein is not really a part of our team because new meetings are barely even reference anywhere and we have sunspots so it's not not reference but she's she's lost in in a In hell, in a demon realm, and you can't take the time to, like, she ages and becomes dark child.

And then, so having more, who is a bit of our cameo machine, like having morph honor that in a fight sequence was my doing. I know it's, that's when we get a little shaky with the timeline in series. Worth it, though, I think. Again, that's, that's artist intent versus reception. And actually, to your credit, this is my actual verbiage of question. I had a question for each episode, and I want you to know, my exact format for the question I was going to ask about Inferno was. with the Inferno app I can't believe how much

was covered in that feverish pace Inferno in the comics has its highs and lows but I really feel like you and the team knocked out of the park bringing the key elements to serve your stare to the forefront what was the process of adapting something so iconic to some fans

but also obscure enough to have you tread some ground you answered that without me asking it so for credit to what you did didn't even have to ask it so if that feels good as a comic fan and I'm taking the phone away no more notes no more questions

now we're just gonna talk I hit the point I wanted to hit yeah now it's No, it's real. Because I wanted to ask like a question per episode, but I really don't want, I think comics are serialized and they come out monthly. So you remember the emotional moments, not the serialized journey. So now that I've gotten the serialized journey out of the way, the emotional moments, I got to talk about the actual line, remember it, that you were able to re-implement after it was used in the episode moment in episode seven, when you landed not only one of your favorite characters saying it, But also, that was her getting the redemption she didn't get with Bastion.

That was her getting the redemption she didn't get, arguably, with Miss Marvel in the original show. That's her getting redemption for 15 years of rage. Yeah. And it's in one line of dialogue that's become iconic to the show. What was it like hearing that delivered in the episode, knowing the weight of it through you writing it, through the years of importance of it, through your love of rogue? Like, that oomph. I mean, Lenore,

give her the Emmy. Is there an Emmy for voice acting? I sure hope so, because it belongs to Lenore. Her emotional breakdown in Five at the end, like I remember when we're in the room we're talking about, we're sort of tracking where the characters are,

and I'll, I'll, I'll answer that. You've answered questions. I've even asked, please, by all means. We're tracking where Rogue is on Genosha during the party, and it's very deliberate that she's showing a lot of skin because she finally feels comfortable to be around Magneto and be able to touch Magneto, and it is just skin.

But to understand that as a writer, well, while she's fighting, she can't touch anybody. So that makes it extremely difficult to do any sort of help that needs to be done. We found ways, and she, obviously, as a character that we want to have a psychology you can track, she found ways, but she's not as effective as she would be if she was clothed. So when we got to the point where Gambit is, is he dead?

Is he alive? We realize, well, she'll know immediately more than anyone. She doesn't even need to check a pulse, and it's the final moment she's able to. And Lenore's breakdown came from some personal pain. She spoke about an interview with the death of, I believe, her niece. and that's what a good artist does is to take that pain and create something like that and you hear it and I think it's devastating

I think that's one of the reasons why episode five is our Emmy push and why it holds down the entire season as our centerpiece so then to hear her own that and let me shout out very clearly and with my full chest writing the episode with JV

with JV Valard who's a dear your friend and a great talent, we were able to, with, I love, I'm a big fan of the writer's room, I'm a big fan, not just our room, which was very, very, very small. I can get into that later, but I love different minds on, on storytelling for a variety of reasons, but both of us coming at tragedy, both of us coming at redemption, and to talk about it in a very, and even smaller than a writer's room way, like, okay, what line? should go here. How should we express it?

Was such a gift to work with J.B. And, yeah, I just really wanted another darling, rogue taking the memories from Gyrick. There was a scene where she sort of has to process Geyrick in her mind. There's a lot of scenes in the original series where when she absorbs powers, she gets them in her head. So you've got this sort of avatar of hatred against mutants in her own head. battling with trauma, battling with loss and mourning. And it was a conversation that just definitely had to be cut for time,

but it was really cool to see with Lenore's voice over it, because I don't know, it just, it's something that I think is really relatable. That's part of why I'm a rogue obsessive is because I find her so very relatable. And unfortunately, in all of our lives, we are going to go through a tragedy, hopefully not as a genocidal tragedy, but the loss of a loved one, I think, will touch everyone. And so we put that into rogue.

I mean, hopefully that was why it felt personal as well, was taking our experience of grief and lost love and put it into her decision-making. I do want to be clear that Gyrick is not in her head when she makes the decision to let. Right, that's her decision. That is her decision. And she's facilitating it, but, like, no one stops it.

Right. They're all a little complicit. A little bit. Of course, I understood. Yeah. I mean, that's sort of the push and pull of, you can't let me keep being a tangent machine. Oh, no. I'm enjoying because I'm talking about stuff that I didn't.

So I'm not going to stop you tangenting, but I did want to ask, and it might be related to this tangent, those moments that you had to move or the kill your darling's elements of like the Geiric example like to keep it on track because I think I said Miss Marvel a second ago I'm at Kamala Khan this morning

I met Captain Marvel she always had like you know some of the guilt of Miss Marvel when she was observing She was named Miss Marvel I wasn't incorrect I was just ready for the comments but I she was Ms. Marvel at the time yet achieved Captain Seths

there was no promotions at the time in the comic books she was becoming that character Carol Danvers is a character that's caused so much guilt for Rogue that I think causes a lot of her anger. I think guilt turns in anger very easily. And I think anger is a really useful way to externalize guilt narratively. So with the Gyrick decision, I do feel like that was the right thing to cut if you were

going to cut something. Absolutely. No question of that. My question would be, is there moments from the show that say you'd gotten 20 episodes? Are there any idealized storylines that you couldn't tell that you'd want to share with people because you know that they can't be shared? You know what I mean? Like, this is the extended cut. Oh, wow.

Would I? What I would give for an extended cut? You have, you all have no idea. So I am a fan of the filler episode, frankly. I think filler episodes can be really revealing about character and also just fun. I miss 22 episodes of seasons, like a lot. I think that's one of the great losses of streaming, and there's plenty. And when we can, we can spill a lot of ink.

But thank you for being weekly. I know it wasn't your decision, but thank you. Because I think water cooler conversation is the reason TV exists. I don't disagree. God, if we had that for Fallout. I mean, Fallout is incredible, but like... But it was not in the conversation two weeks later. X-Men's in the conversations two weeks after 10 weeks later.

I mean, it didn't hurt us any that it wasn't because we got like a big runway. But it's week 12 or 13 from release of X-Men. We're talking about it because of the format and because of the quality. I have every project I'm now on, that's what I'm pushing really hard. And it's like, this is the evidence. You guys, it works. And it's growing. The evidence is growing.

Anyway, extreme cut. With that said, 10 was all we could possibly get. And for instance, I too would have liked Jubilee to have her own episode in the Mojiverse and Life Dead be its own episode. It was a weird marriage. And I certainly did the best I could. We wrote the best we could. I would do more episodes that weren't tragic. A trip to the mall would be nice.

You know, it has to be there. It has to be tragic. It has to be melodramatic. It has to have stakes. But I think there is room for some of the filler episodes that have more fun in games with it. That said, the ones I remember the most from the series were not those ones. The ones I remember the gift, obviously, a high key rogue episode. So, yeah, if I had more episodes to do, there would just be a little bit more.

respite from the arc of the story that we needed to tell. We would have more diversions, which for, for writer, maybe that's a good reason we didn't have it. It was really focused. We were able to, like, really hone down on what was most important. You talk about Inferno, we had to be what's most important and essential to Inferno, but also to the storyline we're telling, places where they needed to be, emotional places where they needed to be, or Madeline needed to be where Gene needed to be emotionally, where Cyclops needed to be emotionally and setting up cable, setting up Nathan, and where he needed to be. So it all happened

for a reason, but yeah, having having room to breathe would have been lovely. I think it does speak to how well the show is paced that so much had to be, you know, removed from the narrative of the comic that this is like 60 issues in 10 episodes. Like if you actually look at the storylines. Maybe that's better for it. Maybe it's more fun the way. Maybe it would not have been the same if it was 22 episodes and then sometimes you get a more lock Christmas, which can be delightful, but also we like schlocky horror and A-24 horror. So there's also a generational thing where I feel like the TikTokification of society

has caused a different pace. We might have enjoyed a 22 episode season that the next generation might not have, and now we're appealing to both. And I think the show really does appeal to both. On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages, whether it's a voice call, message, or sending a password.

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MailChimp. When you want to grow your list size, pop up like it's hot, pop up like it's hot, pop up like it's hot. And when you gotta boost your revenue, pop up like it's hot, hey, pop up like it's hot, pop up like it's hot. Pick your favorite template, you can tailor to your brand. They're MailChimp-A-Rific, you're gonna be a fan. MailChimp your marketing with our new customizable pop-ups. But I want to talk about two more characters than get into some of the crew stuff

because I do think it's fascinating. And for the people that watch at home that are in the entertainment industry or want to be, it is very rare to actually get to talk to a writer that is coming off a successful show in this format in a way that is like the actual nitty-gritty of making shows

is so insane. So I want to talk about that after these two characters. But Wolverine, to me, is an incredible character that I think works really well in Wolverine titles and I think works really well as a supporting character in X-Men titles. I think one of the big things I've always had a problem with is I love the X-Men movies,

but I think they're really good mutant movies, and the X-Men movies we're going to get. I think we're coming to them. And I think a big part of that is dynamics in team. And I don't think of Wolverine as a team leader, because that is the opposite of Wolverine. Wolverine is literally a loner that is trying to figure out who he is, and he's kind of a guy who is reluctantly accepting that he's a team player on his terms. That's not a leader. So I think that was really well captured here.

I think that the way Wolverine was utilized was the essence of the character. When was the decision made to have the character who everyone identifies as the X-Man, the character that got the cliffhanger that was going to make you go, okay, I'll see you next season. Was that an intentional at the top? We need to use them as he's used correctly in the comics, but also we're going to do this thing that's going to make you in agony because you already have love for him. You don't have to build up Love for Wolverine.

It's there. Absolutely. And may I just say, I love your interpretation of that. I'm just as a friend. But, like, it's just so accurate to how Logan, the movie works so well because he is a loner and he's tasked with something that he ordinarily wouldn't do, which is, you know, save X-23. He should smell like a bar. You shouldn't follow him.

Like Cyclops should smell like Old Spice and he should smell like a bar. You don't follow the guy that you don't know if he eats the peanuts off the floor. And also, justice to short kings. Yes. I know this has been said many, many times, but I love me, a short King Wolverine representation. Absolutely no slight to you, Jackman. Would Marvel exist as it is without his being on his back to make sure that... His very broad, six foot three back. I'll say as big as the outback, literally. So absolutely no slight and I cannot wait for... Oh, Deadpool-Moverim. It's going to be phenomenal. It's going to be the joy, the stupid joy.

that I think we all deserve. The quarter century in the making element is the fact that Deadpool was 15 years ago in the worst X-Men movie. Yes. And the fact that Wolverine... It broke the character. That's the example that everyone should use. Because if you sew them work with the mouth's mouth shut,

and Wolverine is a weapon X program that needs to use Deadpool in that way, but then Deadpool isn't Deadpool. You haven't made a Wolverine in Deadpool movie. Absolutely. We are now getting a Deadpool and Wolverine movie, but it took a quarter century to get to like the characters. And that's the folklore. of our, you can, like, in an oral tradition, talk about these stories, but if you don't

recognize the character in the story, like, you can take them anywhere. You can put them on these, like, wild adventures, these fantastic adventures. You can take them back through time, but if the character themselves breaks and are unrecognizable, no one's following you on these adventures. Right. So that's why I think they had to do this movie, is because they broke it, and now this is them fixing it. And I... So grateful. To bring it back to us a little bit. That is a good segue into what we were allowed to use, what we weren't, and when we were allowed to choose in the storylines, but we weren't.

Characters we couldn't touch. We couldn't touch Cassandra Nova because Cassandra Nova has such an important part for this movie. I don't know what it is. I haven't seen the movie. But there are certain things that we sort of slid across the table and like, can we do this? Yeah. And they would push it back with like, yeah, like with the checkmark. Is there anyone else you can reveal that you couldn't,

use like without getting in trouble out of just curiosity okay I just had to ask because as a fan I'm a ask off camera I rejectation but I'm always curious the process of retooling once you find out you can't use a character is that an answer you can give I don't think much retooling had to be done from where from from the original document that we were working off of that that boated to to secure the job in the first place this pitch document I've definitely learned from is very very thorough, but they're story ideas. They're not the, the textures, the, what happens beat by beat, that's not, wasn't in the document, but certainly where the general shape of where we wanted to go was there. So I would say specifically the three-part finale was very late in the game.

Okay. So was it a glimmer in our eye? Yes. But it took a little bit to, I think, convince maybe even ourselves that we've earned something like the Advanchion being pulled out. I'm not sure exactly when that got approved one way or the other. It's so iconic and there's been two and a few years. Yeah, you said two and have three years. I don't blame you for being like, well, it was March of 2020. That said, I do think a lot of the iconic moments, we talked a few minutes ago about filler episodes that aren't in a year,

but the fact that there are iconic moments that means so much to comic fans, whether it's one that lands or one that doesn't land. I'm going to talk about onslaught in a second as my last comic-based question before we get to crew-based questions. I got to talk about Cyclops. I can't speak much about that. I don't want an answer. I have a question about the character.

Okay. Because I don't want, like, again, I want to watch season two. I'm the one journalist that wants zero scoops. I'm sorry again, Reject Nation. I want to watch this show. That said, before I get to onslaught, Cyclops is a character, I think, much like Wolverine, hasn't been given his due. Because of the time of heroes being incorrect for Cyclops is my hot take.

I think that Superman never had a chance in the time. that we got through to get superhero movies made. I don't think Superman could have existed in the way that I think we're about to get to. I think that Superman shouldn't be a character that we look to laterally. It should be someone we look up to. And I think that we weren't as a society ready

for that kind of character. And I think right now we need him more than ever. Likewise, I think Cyclops, right? Like there's an aspirational nature to these two Jewish guys writing through their oppression, a hero that represented them. And I think that society had to accept a lot of spandex before we got to the true

spandex. I think Cyclops likewise is a character that doesn't work until you accept a certain amount of strife makes you a better leader. I think that in this case, that pun was very intended. And a very gnarled family tree. In this case, strife

is literally a version of his son. Like strife being what he's gone through, but also like what his family has turned him into and still being noble and altruistic but fallible. And I don't think we've ever seen cyclops. I mean, one of your journey for for exactly that reason. It's every zigzag.

But we've only seen Cyclops as like 2D. And that's not James Marsden's fault. Like I think James Marsden knows exactly who Cyclops is. Genius. But he's never gotten to play him. No, because that character was one of the broken characters in the original run.

You only saw a Boy Scout, I guess. But really, he was just a wine machine. He just didn't like Wolfrey. Yes. You like my girlfriend too. I'm gonna go pout and shoot optic blasts sometimes. And like, there was no reason for Gene to love them to the level they did.

And the hell of all they had to love each other. Exactly. It was like, we know we have to hit these things, but we're not going to write towards them. It was checking beats in the mutant movie. Yes. But this, I really feel like Cyclops is a character that can go Cyclops was right, or he can go Xavier's mentor. And I really love that you guys dance the line between Xavier is my hero and Magneto has some good ideas. What was it like dancing?

Again, I know you can't talk about the future and I don't want to hear the way it lands or, you know, I know there's like a five-year plan, a two-year plan, a three-year plan. but as of the end of this season, what was it like getting to the point where you've zigged and zagged to that level? Because there were times I thought you were going to go full on like I was going to see the red X over his eyes suit. I thought the last suit he might wear might be that.

Well, we want to keep you guessing because we know a vast majority who are watching our previous fans are comic book readers. So I think there has to be that bit of Mr. Rec because I think Mr. Rec creates delight. That's what every magician knows. So yeah, there's a little bit

of like teasing, a little bit of, not foreshadowed me because I'm not saying one way or the other if we're going to land any of these things we're shadowing. But to go back a second to what you were saying, I really love how you're framing Xavier and Magneto, because they're the backbone philosophy of all of the X-Men, every single incarnation, every cartoon, every movie. Honestly, that's what the movies got so right was, you know, not just the cast. but it's a dual between two philosophies on how to change the world. Either it's you do it through incremental change, you do it through modeling the best sort of behavior,

the best of ourselves, or do you do it by saying, well, people won't ever change because they never have historically, so kind of fuck them. Yeah. And we're gonna do our own thing on Janosha or Crocoa or any sort of separatist movement. And I hope people get that we're not saying, in totality, Magneto is right on all things,

because Magneto is not right on all things. Xavier's not right on all things. And I sort of see us in the position of where Scott is. I think Scott is not quite, yes, he's a student of Charles, one of the first students of Charles. So he has a lot of that in his core, and we brought him to, I think, siding more towards the end when he's talking to Bastion.

But he's us. He hasn't quite made a side. He's not the avatar of both these sorts of positions on social change. So he, just like us, we see the value of what a magnet can do, what a more aggressive approach, a take-to-the-streets approach, which I am someone who goes to protest.

I'm someone who tries to do more and advocate more and believes in peace and ceasefire and to just move the world. I just realized I think that's the last place we saw each other. Was the princess? I think it was, which is such a funny X-Men moment. I was like, wait a second. I think I literally saw you in the pandemic.

I'm at everyone. That's so funny. This last time I think I saw you was like, yeah, you're like the front at all time. Absolutely. I'm that busybody horrible thing that. I've got a lot of time while writing X-Men.

I'm that left-wing progressive cartoon that I've been made out to be in some corners of the internet. But that's such a funny last time to see you while talking about the X-Men. I do love that. Yeah, that's fitting. Because I think that's, as a fan on either side, if you're a fan who ends up writing or fan who's reading,

I think you have that expectation of you want. Here are a team who don't have to fight for good. They're oppressed on every side. and there are many mutants who cannot fit because their mutations are horrific. Yeah. Or they can't go out in public

like the Morlocks. Also, poor Leach. Oh, poor Leach. You vaporized his eyeballs. Not enough people are sad about Leach-driving, in my opinion. He's a child. And that I think was

what landed for me and to conclude the Cyclops thought. The active use of him as our eyeline was genius and making him not linear was genius because we aren't linear. And that's why I think I bring up the protest is they're active. Can I just say?

I think that makes him a good leader in a way that you can't have a Wolverine because I think Wolverine can often be a little, I'm like seeing the chart of like lawful neutral in my eye. But I think where people get Cyclops wrong is I don't think he's a by the book sort of guy. I think he has some similarities to how Captain America has recently been portrayed. Yes, finally. Finally. where, like, no, he's not just going to do any rule because it's the law of the land.

Right. Winter Soldier helped that character in the comic and the movie's so much. Absolutely. And I know I'm saying this, and on the other hand, we sort of dip back into older Captain America depictions when he's facing off against rogue. Some of that is our own enjoyment and her discussing the shield. But also, he has not always been that way. Right. So I see that in both these characters where it just can't be any law.

It has to be an actual, and you can get very philosophical, what is justice, what is goodness, but to sort of see like the best possible momentum for the most people, the best possible life for the most people, I think is what makes him a really good leader, what makes Storm a really good leader. I would love to see in the future Storm taking up the leadership role because she is such an incredible. person to do so, but that's, yeah. Seeing X-Bin Blue and Gold Forum, it all made me happy. So it means that's possible. And my last bit on season one, and I do want to talk about the behind-the-scenes

for a moment because I know we're running out of time, is OnSlaught, I believe, and I don't want to talk about the potential of Onslaught, but I do want to give you guys credit. I want to make sure I phrase this correctly. I am a medium, like comic book medium guy, like comics are my jam. I enjoyed what felt like a seed planted for Onslaught here more than. I have in the comics for the first time. So huge race. I just like, I don't want to know if it leads to anything, but I do want to say, if it does,

I think that conversation between the two of them where the tumultuousness of the sea was representing emotion and water itself being reflective and like the beautiful metaphors and allegories there between these two men who are diametrically opposed about a few things, but in love with each other and in love with their ideals in so many other ways, to me felt more like what I always wanted Onslaught to feel like whether or not it is visually going to represent that. To me, that

seed planted, I want to give credit to the whole season setting up, even if it doesn't deliver it, what I've always wanted Onslaught to feel like, so I just wanted to thank everyone. That, I'm taking that praise and putting where it's due to Anthony Sillity, who came in and helped

with the last three episodes and is also a writer in the second season. It was absolutely, God, thank you, that's also just so very kind, but Anthony was sort of the architect of where those, where that needed to be shaded in and the possibility of that, but also basing it on these men and their, none of the vision of life and how to approach it, but who they are as friends, as men, it's so tough being a writer sometimes because you want to, I could see. whole series where we're just talking about them and their origin story. So you're just trying to do with the allotment you have how to make sure that you have a foundation to give a shit. Because we have new people coming in and they don't know their background. They don't have the previous series or the comics to tell them like, this is why they're

friends. This is this is why it would really. really hurt to see this friend who has been, certainly some depictions of him have him be genocidal, but I never see Magneto that way. Magneto is a different sort of leader, a different sort of philosophy, but not a genocidal maniac. He's not a bastion. His origin wouldn't allow him to be. Exactly. It's very directly in a proposition of that very word. Absolutely. And there are so many amazing touches. Asher, one of our incredible editors, told me that the Newton brothers put in a sort of, I don't have the music terms, I wish I did, where there is a mourner's

cottage from the Jewish tradition in some of the score during Genoia, because of the specificity of Eric Ledger as a Jewish character and what he had witnessed. The timelines, I know, are a little funny now. That's going to have to be, like, no matter what we do going forward with these characters, it's such a part of their DNA. And I think it's beautiful. to put it in there in a way that's subtle, but also for people that are part of culture to hear and reflect on. Like, I might not recognize it, but they would,

and that's who should do. But it's so, I hope, shows the detail we try to put in there, but also it's connection to the world we live in. We live in a world that history repeats so frequently. It doesn't always, you know, to horribly paraphrase, it doesn't always,

it doesn't always repeat it, but it often rhymes. Yeah, I love that. expression. I actually just did a total tangent. I just did a Furiosa review and I kept stress, oh my God. I kept stressing about how much I loved that it's a prequel, but it acknowledges the world rhyming to reflect the old Mad Max's and the new and the whole way it builds the world is the concept of history rhyming. Because I think that's more accurate than repeats. And I think this really reflects that. I couldn't have said it better. It's it does

and it's sort of the Sisyphian nature of all superheroes, but certainly X-Men, we're just like, we're going to push for equality, we're going to push be recognized as beings who deserve love and respect and more than tolerance, and then Genosha gets destroyed or any sort of storyline where you get some advancements and then some setbacks.

I think that's really true to life, but you still try. So I hope that's where our show ends up with, even though it's not a series finale, it's a season finale where like the attempt to make things better is always worth it. No matter the stakes, no matter the likelihood of success, it's always worth it to try. And that's my, that's my pageant answer.

But I wanna say just one last thing about little things we snuck in there that I think are important to all adaptations personally is, Where I'm really proud of us is that we didn't look at any of superheroness, and we're like, that's kind of silly, isn't it? These costumes are kind of silly. This name is kind of silly and make jokes about that.

I think that's so tired. Yeah. That sort of lens of irony. You did the opposite. You made that leather joke. That's the one indulgence. But it's the inversion. But it's the inversion.

And that we're sort of like, we're pointing to it without doing too much about that. But I think that's one of the reasons people are taking to our show. Because we want to celebrate the full camp when it's taken seriously. And I will say a word that might be having to be muted by the editor. I'm sorry, an advanced editor. I love how Cognito was dressed because he is. Like, I think that's so important to have Magneto have that. That man's wearing his hair for a reason that way.

And that man is wearing long elbow covering gloves. That's the character in that era. Magneto on trial is serving. And I respect it. Absolutely. And well put, but we, I mean, we want to serve you with, with Goblin Queen and Death Bird certainly and Claremont was a kinky dude. He was a kinky dude. I called him a kinky wizard before and I stand by it.

It is important to the X-Men. I mean, people are like, oh, there's like there's too much perversion in pop culture. I'm like, no, no, there is, we need to acknowledge everyone having a draw. And I think the Hellfire Club is a great example of a hell of a place I'd visit. This Met Gala, well, it's sort of why, why are queer people so into the X-Men? Well, because look at how they dress acts talk. Yes, it's, it's, it's. every single, and also their outsider status and also the fight that all queer people will hopefully not have to one day, but like, it's all an aspect of that. But yes, I have to say behind the scenes, we have called him either Dad Nito or Daddy Nito.

That is a thing that happened, and we should lose our jobs by the basis of that. But I can't regret it too much because it's true. I would be absolutely remiss not to ask a question that really affected me as a comic fan and a movie fan. Like, in my work, I talk about comics and movies and shared universes have become what they are because of Marvel, in my opinion. Like, the MCU has allowed this to be what it is.

And you guys did that again, in my opinion, in the same way that the Avengers did in 2012. That spinning Avengers shot, to me, is the moment I knew society had changed to be one of us. Like, the nerds won in that moment. You guys did it in the finale where it went, oh, you think you know cameos? You think you don't care.

And it literally zoomed out to this macro that didn't feel even like the MCU. It felt like I was reading a comic. It felt like I was turning a page, seeing a panel, and going, they're all here. And I, one, thank you, two, want to know what was it like finding out you could use those characters. Three, and the personal one, Peter Mary Jane. They're together again. Does this take place in a timeline that allows that to be the ending of the original show? because technically this takes place

97 show ended in 98. Is she still falling? Is she missing? I have questions. I can't answer. Sorry. Okay, let's talk cameos. And I've already forgotten the initial order

because my ADHD did not track the ones of the two to the three. You lost me at the two. We've got a new question. The one was thank you, the three you can't answer. So the two is... Hey, excellent. What was the assembly of,

we can use this character? Oh my God, this is exciting as a fan. Like I said before, we would sort of slide across the table. Who can we use? who's off limits in the greater universe. Marvel was very supportive in bringing the entirety of what the MCU

can bring now that they own all of that. So we're allowed to acknowledge like this is so much larger than it's ever been specifically on the original show. I mean, even the original show had Captain America had Spider-Man.

Spider-Man. So this is not, it's not off from the original by any means. I don't think Reed was in X-Ben and I don't think, right? So that allows this. I think Daredevil was. Daredevil wasn't.

So that makes the Silver Surfer Show canon. That makes, in the universe. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're a little siloed. We're our own. I see this as a pilot for everything animated. It would be great. I mean, I vividly remember when you and I were talking on screen junkies,

you know very well that House of M is my very, very favorite events in all of comics, I think. And it couldn't exist without like all the work that came before because it because it subverts with that depth of knowledge. But, like, you had said once, and I'll never forget it, like, that's how you bring the mutants in to the MCU is like... M of House, I've been calling it for years. Yes, and it would work so well. I have no idea of what they're doing.

That was one of the first meetings I had with Brad was talking about my love of House of M and how much I really... Like, Wanda Vision sort of makes it seem like, I don't know if they could actually really do it because WandaVision, which is amazing, there's some... I would have done it personally. I would have used that scene where the wave goes out and I would have had that be something that mirrored the blip and had that be the moment that allows the chaos energy

of the X gene to activate. So therefore her making the mental choice to push out would have caused the entire world to activate their X genes, allowing the Miss Marvel moment to be the first mutant to allow the chronology to be like we're 15 years in, why are we just discovering the X gene? And that would allow Scarlet to be the one

that does the M of House. She's the one that says, yes, more mutants. But an inversion of it. So comic fans get to go, oh, she un-no-born mutinced, but the timeline, yes, more mutants.

But that allows Kamala to not be like, why is this suddenly happening now? And I would make the blip part of that, like, we changed our DNA. Brad Winderbombeam, are you listening? You know, I always hope he is. I love that guy.

I met him once, and he is so nerdy. He really knows his stuff, too. I was at a party, and Peyton Reed introduced me to Brad Winderbomb, And I was like, this feels pretty cool. And then the three of us proceeded to just yell about Modoc at each other. And it was like one of the things where I was like, this only happens in the back of the back of the comic store,

but you guys actually are controlling Modoc. So Brad Wonderbaum running the animation side now, the TV side in general, what were the conversations with him like, especially regarding these cameos? It sounds like they were very receptive, very open to it. Yeah.

I mean, because I wanted to feel, yes, we are not a part of the greater MCU canon, but it still should feel like it's a part of things because we're introducing them to an entirely new, audience, of course, not entirely new, but like a new era. Yeah. So it would behooved us to make sure that they were, you would see people you recognize

in the greater MCU. And we had a good mechanism to do that in Morph and also in the finale when it was a world event. And I love all forms of Marvel where we have like sort of defenders level or like a ground level super heroes and also like where the world stakes that it is. I think you need to have a good balance of that because if it's all like world stakes, I think you can be like, oh, the world.

Well, if everything's an Avengers level of it, nothing is. Absolutely. Do you have to assemble the Avengers? They shouldn't just be hanging out. Like, I think it should feel like they talk about this with great death tolls. Like it becomes too much for your brain. Just like the stars in the galaxy,

too much for your brain to comprehend. It becomes a statistic where it's like one person is a tragedy sort of thing. Now we're getting into it. But that's more existential question. But I think in the pop culture side, Marvel is smart to do Marvel Television, Marvel Animation, Marvel Studios. They just recently rebranded having three tiers amongst their brand.

I think it's smart that Marvel animation could, I'm not saying you know or don't know, but I think it's smart that they could have this be the beginning of bringing those characters back in that format because that scene allowed it or didn't. It just acknowledged it. And that's what felt like Avengers to me. Like, if they'd never done another movie again, I would have been heartbroken, but I got to see it. Yeah. So I think it was really beautiful.

You guys gave comic fans a moment that we wouldn't have ever seen from our, childhoods that hopefully goes places, but if it doesn't, I still got to live with those characters again. It makes me so happy and grateful that you took that out of it. 100%. Like this show has been consistently childhood, uh, rekindling, life affirming, and it's childlike wonder never felt childish. And you guys didn't make a show that turned animation into a genre. You made sure it was a medium. And that's so important to me. I'm speechless. Thank you. that is so, because when you're in it, when you've got your nose to it,

you don't see the full Monet of it, like you've got the dots. I guess that's a different painter. Anyway, art history is more than this mona is a sarah. The brushes. Anyway, you're not seeing the full picture, but all you know is like, okay, what would piss me off as a fan?

I don't want to piss that fan within me. So you want to make sure, because, I don't know, you are in this world so long. Yeah. You know what you're excited to see. And you start from that place, like, what would just blow your mind? And then you ask Marvel, can we do this?

And they're sometimes like this and sometimes like, ah, we've got other ideas. But when you win, when you win that discussion, it feels like what I hope it feels like at home where I can't believe they're doing this. I couldn't believe we got to do it. I couldn't believe I got to write Inferno. I couldn't believe we got to kill gamut in the way we did. I can't believe we... I love you.

You have three years of trauma about saying it. So you're like, I have to whisper it even now because I know it's been out there for seven or eight weeks, but... It's still very painful. I think Jake is our number one gambit fan on the team, and his face was always during pitches. We're just like... And this is what happened.

And he made it as the leader of the entire art team. Like, he has to think of all the horrible ways it could happen. So poor Jake, but yeah, anyway. That's a good way to bring in the crew side. I do want to talk for a couple of minutes about making a show such as this, because we've talked a lot about what you've seen on screen, but I think behind the scenes is also incredible. That could be a part two, a second hour, but just for a few minutes.

Speaking of Jake, we're sending our, we wish he could be here with us. Man is just working. The hustle is never ending. The hustle is never ending. We're in season two, and I should clarify, I only worked on the first season. I only worked for the first season. Sure, we talked about what would happen in the second season. but the work continues and is in phenomenal hands.

Anthony is writing on the second season and there's more writers on the team. It's hard to explain, but the first season was very small in our writers' room. It was technically on paper a two-person writer's room. It was Bo and myself writing the show. And also going to records and also going to pitches on boards and also, but it

was very clear, very early, that it was a three person because J.B., even though a writer assistant, I consider and is and was just clearly the third writer in the room and was staff writer eventually with episode seven and then going forward. And then Anthony came later and is an incredible addition to that. But when it was just the smallest of small rooms, there was a lot of pressure. And to keep the continuity of what we were doing, all the plates spinning, and make sure that nothing is losing from our attention, not the records, not the boards, not, that was an unintentional rhyme. So it was definitely, I am a full believer in the largest room possible.

I think even though I'm grateful that we've had compliments about the writing on the show, first of all, the foundation was already built up to like the, 30th level of the skyscraper. So we're on, there's Claremont, there's Bendis, there's Morrison, like, there's some decades of work. There's decades of work, and I hate to be repetitive,

but this show would not work if all the work wasn't already kind of done. But we felt that in the show, and that I think is really, like, doesn't always translate, but it didn't feel like that was just you acknowledging it felt like honoring. Like, there's a line.

I so hope so, and that we achieve that, because we and we'd be foolish not to we make it our own and do what we can but the writing was already there from the source material and sometimes you need to get out of the source material's way and other times

to correct it to the medium of a TV show of a film you need to make certain changes but honestly a lot of the time you do not as a fan I don't always like to see or a remix I want the full thing or I don't feel satisfied so

So, anyway, so part of being in a very small writer's room, also you only have, I think we worked as a great team, things that I could do, some things Bo could do, and, and J.B. could do, and Anthony could do, the more backgrounds, the diversity of thought and, and talents, that's, you make a good X-Men, you make a good writing team. It's not that dissimilar. You want people to be a well-balanced team, and I hope that. that we were even in the smallest of rooms, but it always is better when there's more people. I mean, you and Bo starting out, I want to know when it got to the point, because I've never been in a writer's room, that you get those like aha moments. Like there's a few lines of dialogue that like,

the line where Magneto does like an M&M bar and uses metal as metal, like M-E-D-D-L-E and M-E-T-A-L. I literally like yelp to my reaction because I was like, that is genius wordplay. what point when you're going through a script do you start adding those comic lines or is it something where like you've got some stuff in your back pocket like weather your mind mind your weather like where do you in making these stories does that come from a conversation does that come from like

I've always wanted to hear this is that come from where do those moments come from both absolutely both you're rereading comics oh my god can I just say I will never get over any point in my career that I can just talk to Marl and be like, I would like these are shoes and they just send it to you. Anything in the back catalog, literally we could pull up to, and we didn't go fully like super.

That's another thing of building on the Giants is we're doing pretty big things. Like we're pulling from pretty big runs. So Inferno maybe is niche to some, but not to comic book readers. Absissa might be the most deep cut I was able to pull out to justify her existence in the Mojo universe.

But that's part of the fun, is the research and be like, I want to pull this, I want Cynister to say that. This is for work. This is for work. I will never get over it. I sometimes get to do game adaptations and developments and I get free codes and I'll never get over it. It makes me so happy. Like, yes, I could afford it, but it's a free code.

And I will play the whole thing. And the joy of knowing that hour you spend reading comics is for work is so much more of relief than like, I've got to hurry back to work. I have to read comics. It's my job's stupid, man. I have the luckiest most wonderful job in the world. Yes, it gets stressful. well, yes, sometimes you feel overworked, but like, also shut up.

Like, I get to do the dreams of many, many people, and I really never forget that. So, yes, so part of it is pulling from the comics and feeling directly from the comics. A lot of Inferno was, like, line for line, the elevator scene was the Disney version of what we could do with the elevator scene. There's some Inferno stuff. I was like, are they going to adapt Inferno? How? And then in the episode, I was like, I see how they made this work.

Just, you know? Because there's some, even her outfit. I love how it still felt like her, but I was like, Disney would not let them draw that character. You know, the underboob situation, iconic. I've seen cosplayers make that work, but the aerodynamic physics of it. The aerodynamics of the loincloth. It is chaos magic, to be honest.

And also, like, the way her, like, little, like a bikini area hangs is also chaos magic. That does not work in nature, but that's the magic of the medium. Absolutely. But you can't do that in live action. My final question actually ties into that. The board artists and the work with the animation side, right? Like, I've never worked on animation ever. When you're planning out a show and you've got your visuals and then they've got their visuals,

when you're doing this back and forth on something like 10 episodes, what's the workflow? Like, do you guys see like the loose animatics and then you tweak? Do you guys see like an early storyboard? Like, how does it the actual nitty-gritty of I picture Magneto looking like this, talking back to Xavier like this? Like, what's that actual process? So we're seeing everything from Amelia Vidal's incredible design. work and agreeing like, oh, it should be, certain characters should look this way or this isn't working on camera.

The producers, higher than us, the executive producers, like Victoria Lonza was there at the time, like have a lot of input. So we're every single level a collaboration, more so, as I said, than even live action. It is, we write as best we can, and then they plus it to the fucking moon to Asteroid M. They are plusing it more than we, and making. us look incredible. I feel like 70% of any praise of the writing really is 70% that should go to the board artists. So we are seeing rough boards. We are seeing eventually animatics. These are sometimes, should I explain what animatics are? There's sort of like a black and white

rough of boards are moving at that point. So it is sort of a rough idea of where the action should be, what the choreography, especially this more than any show. an animated show I've ever worked on has a lot of fight choreography as it should. Yeah. So you're really seeing it evolve. The Capcom influence was amazing. It was so fulfilling to see the move not just in a way that felt like the X-Men, but also it felt like my X-Men.

Like it felt like when Cyclops moved well and was actually Cyclops, I was like, it did the show did everything it needs to do. And then it did more. Well, we try. I mean, we were amusing ourselves as well. So we... That final, like, when he did his full and I was like, I think he got away with it. How'd they get away with it?

the first boards I saw, can I just say? Getting out of the Capcom just a second was the fall of Cyclops from the Blackbird to the ground. Oh yeah. With the laser blast. And I just sat back and I'm like, this is the coolest show all ever work on. I think that it was Jake's idea to do

that specifically, but it's just... I still have that feeling, even though I know what was coming in a lot of ways. And lots of things change. Once it gets to the studio mirror side of things, and also not being past the first season, iron Marvel curtain goes down.

And there were some things that I didn't see until the very, like, until you saw. So to see it in that way, it was just like, oh my God, it's even better than I remember it. It's even better than I imagined it. It's such a credit to the greater team. And that is, I don't know,

it's very, you know, pinko socialist of me. But like, I prefer it that way. I prefer what everyone, you hire the best people possible and then you get out of their way in a very like Steve jobs sort of way and it makes all the difference in the world. I want to give love to that to everyone we've been lucky enough to toss to Chase, Emmy, Jake. It's been such an honor to really make sure the love we felt for the show. I wanted to and got to directly thank you guys because what you did was like I said childhood and adulthood and adulthood and affirming and the love you showed these characters

has meant the world to me and you're actually right in front of me. So the love you've shown these characters that translated thank you i knew how much you love the x-men i knew how much they meant to you but i'd never seen a show capture that in these beautiful colors both in narrative and physical colors so it was a love letter to the x-men without feeling like it was a a piece of fan art or a cover band it felt like the band doing the hits without sacrificing their actual artistry thank you so much for this show thank you for saying that corin thank you for the work you do i I feel, I mean, being brought up in the same sort of soup you did in the gigasphere of journalism and critique and essay writing about this, it's so important to have you guys doing the recaps.

It's, it enhances the experience. I will never forget being a weed, Charlie, reading Ain't it Cool Loos or the comment section of AV Club. The discussion is crucial, and you guys lead the discussion in such a profound and deeply thought that way, you and you're, you're, just everyone, you're, it's, but we do, we watch you guys. That's so surreal. That's so, it's so, it gets sent to me too. And every time I'm like, I've already watched them. It's so funny because when you are doing what we do, you're literally like, there's a lens,

there's a couple lights and there's your buddy. And it's like, I'm, if that camera wasn't there, a crazy person. Like, it is such a weird surrealistic. One of us. One of us. It's so, like, I'm going to talk about this show while it's on and then talk a review. But the inmates have run the asylum here. If the nerds won, the inmates won.

Like, we've done it. That's what happened on the other side of here. It's like, okay, what will you do? I made this dumb joke before, but like, it was the dog that caught the blackbird here. Like, okay, you've been talking shit all your life about different ex-ped editation. How did you write the X-Men? What would you do? And so this is our answer.

And I'm, it's profoundly, it doesn't, I haven't, I'm too self-hating myself to feel like I, It has not permeated me that this show is done as well as I think it has. It is the only 100% show out of the biggest studio in the world right now. And that is thanks to you, Bo, J. Emmy, Chase, all loving it. Everyone on the boards, it's because of that. Like, that 100% is deserved. So I will not let you swipe that off.

No shoulder wiping. That is well deserved. And I'm so honored you guys watched what we have done and that everyone took the time. So thank you for the time to share in this love. I love the work you guys. do. And it's a pleasure. It's fan culture. And that is where I think a lot of us have found community in a way that we so desperately crave as human beings. Community is important. It's art to be my X-Men. We're allowed to hate things together, love things together, and everything

in between. I can't think of a better place to end it. I am so appreciative of knowing you now for 12 years, which in LA is like 60. And for our love of X-Men translating into these two very unique positions where we got to work together again but our different side. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's just, this is great. So thank you for all you did for X-Men. I hope you guys enjoyed this video. Do all the YouTube things. Hit that comment. Let me know which things surprised you about this interview. If there were any

moments that I failed at asking about, if there's anything that you were like, oh, I didn't realize that it happened. Please, I want this comment section to also be a conversation. I love the back of the comic store, having those nitty-gritty, weird conversations over characters. And we went through a lot of the nitty-gritty. So have a conversation below respectfully. And I'm going to jump in the comments

a lot on this one. So please jump down there. Also hit that like. Share this video because that's how we get to keep making them. And as ever, that is my name on a talk show board and that will never not be the most insane thing to me as someone who's wanted to do this his whole life. And that's because of you

guys watching this show. So as much as if he prays on X-Men 97 and Will for the rest of my life, thank you, dear viewer, for letting that exist in 3D for me to feel like there's an audience for the insanity of stuff like this and that's you. So thank you. We will talk to you very soon much love reject nation have a great one go hug your family it's on mugs too

it is on mugs and john's shirt it's crazy