The Resilient Mind - Can Forgiveness Heal? A Conversation With a Cardiologist - Dr. Alan Rozanski

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

What if the key to a healthy heart had less to do with diet and exercise, and more to do with what you're carrying emotionally?Dr. Alan Rozanski is a world-renowned cardiologist and pioneering researcher who has spent decades uncovering the profound connection between the mind and the heart. His work reveals that chronic stress, resentment, and emotional pain don't just live in your head, they show up in your body, and they can quietly shape the health of your heart. In this powerful conversation, Dr. Rozanski explores why forgiveness may be one of the most underrated forms of medicine, how optimism and gratitude are linked to longevity, and why social connection and a sense of purpose are essential to lasting vitality. He also shares the six domains of health that contribute to overall well-being, and practical ways to begin teaching these principles to the next generation.This episode is a reminder that healing the heart is never just physical. Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for your body is to let go.Learn More from Dr. RozanskiWebsite: www.alanrozanski.comLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/alanrozanskiExplore tools from past guests of the podcast. Some links below are affiliate links, meaning we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you:💓 HeartMath: https://www.heartmath.com/resilient🧠 Muse: https://choosemuse.com/resilientmind🌿 Brain Ritual: https://www.brainritual.com/THERESILIENTMIND🌍 The Resilient Mind Podcast is a proud member of 1% for the Planet — building resilient minds and a resilient planet. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It was such a remarkable finding at the time. It was stunning to me. Looking back 1970s, there was three times of many people dying from heart disease compared to cancer. The data we have right now, so how does chronic stress currently affect our health? You can develop inflammation. You can develop abnormalities in the lining of vessels. And it can affect the brain too. We see that people under chronic stress can have enlargement of the myctalore or the fear center

and decrease in the hippocampus and in the prefrontal cortex. the body actually testifies to what is good for it or is not good for it. Have you seen cases where people might be undergoing like chronic stress or experiencing chronic stress, but they are just not aware of it? Living with depression untreated is one of the most toxic things to your health. Under chronic depression, the body seems to go, hey, why it does not tolerate depression? Why do you think people are not happy today? There's a U-shaped relationship.

people who have a moderate amount of stress are actually doing better than both ends of the spectrum. They do better than people have. It's a toxic stress, but also they do better than people who don't have stress. So if your vitality is down, that sense of feeling energetic is down, then you have to think about it. You have to see, wait a second. How can we better manage our time when we feel like 24 hours is not enough? Just to answer that question would be a whole podcast now. So welcome. Today I'm super excited to be joined by Dr. Rosanski.

We are going to be talking about the heart, how it connects to health, and look at it from a more holistic perspective so we can help develop a more stronger mind. Welcome to the show, Dr. Izanski. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. So you have spent decades in traditional cardiology before you shifted to what we call holistic model of heart health. Was there like a single defining moment that made you have that shift? Absolutely. it was one of those epiphanies, if you will.

This was back in the early 1980s we were studying. I'm a cardiologist, but also specializing cardiac imaging techniques. We put people under stress on the treadmill, and we look at the heart wall motion or the blood flow. And so one of the techniques is specifically that we have patients on a bicycle and we have them exercise. And the wall should be more vigorous with exercise. But if there's a blockage in one of the coronary arteries,

the wall starts to start, the war motion starts to slow down. That's how we diagnose heart disease. And we do it with exercise. But there was data coming out in the 1980s that people using ambulatory electric cardiograms during daily life activity were getting abnormalities in function indicating lack of blood supply while driving the car and doing household activities. And we didn't understand it. So I got the idea to study this under mental stress. And my goal was just to understand what, you know, affects the heart. I wasn't interested in mental stress. But we came up with a process. or look at patients with a subtracting zero sevens or four-digit number, something called the

worst troop task. And the third task was called, it wasn't a task, was just having patients speak about the stress in their lives. And lo and behold, as we started to do this, I remember the second patient we did, was a man about 59 years old, and he was talking about the fact that he was going to become an employee, he was going to lose his job. And as he did so, his wall motion, almost about a third of his heart, stopped moving while he was talking about this stress. It was such a remarkable finding at the time. It was stunning to me. And that was my aha moment to the mind-body relationship. So I began to study the effects of acute stress. And over time, that gravitated to the effects of chronic stress. And then that gravitated

over time to looking at what are all the factors that might affect the heart besides just the physical factors we would look like, at look at like exercise and diet and so forth. So that's how I got going. Wow, that is fascinating. And so you're one of the first people to show that mental strength can literally cause, if I can use the word, silent ischemia. What has that told us about the biology of emotion,

not just something that might be seen as being metaphorical, but also physiological? Well, you know, it's kind of interesting because at that time, I was focusing on acute stress, And it was compatible with data that we've seen that during heart attacks, even during world-class soccer matches and so forth, there are some people who will develop heart attacks and so forth. Fortunately, that doesn't happen the most people. And I emphasize that the data we saw were people with advanced heart disease.

We would give those tests to normal people that wouldn't occur. So I'm not sure I taught as much more than that, which was much more important, was when I began to look at the effects of chronic stress and other factors. And the data we have right now, so how does chronic stress currently affect our health? So it's very important here to distinguish between, let's say, good stress and bad or chronic stress. And it's, you know, I think we've created, because of the medical findings in terms of what stress can do to the heart, I haven't looked at the flip side in terms of the good things that

managing stress does for us. But in short, if you have stress that we would call toxic, which might be. Stress you can't control with a lot of emotional reactivity to the stress. If it's unabating stress, for example, this can affect the metabolism of your body. You can have the development of insulin resistance. You can develop inflammation. You can develop abnormalities in the lining of vessels. There's data showing that it can affect actually immunological factors to the bone marrow,

which eventually cause the development of atherosclerosis. So there's an increased risk of arthroscopis. And it can affect the brain too. We see that people under chronic stress can have enlargement of the myctola or the fear center and decrease in the hippocampus and in the prefrontal cortex. That's been shown both in animal models of stress and looking people, you know, looking at MRI studies of the brain. So it's a real factor when it's chronic and when it's underbating stress. And have you seen cases where people might be undergoing?

like chronic stress or experiencing chronic stress, but they are just not aware of it, because maybe they are just go, go, go in their life. I think that's very common. You know, we get, we get acclimated to our situations, and you could argue, we're living in a society today where it's all too sped up and we tolerate more stress than we should. You know, I think that you could make that case. And how might someone become aware whether they are living in toxic stress? Well, there are a number of ways you can become aware. First of all, stress can have bodily effects. You can have tension so you can feel pain in your chest or arm. That's often why patients come to us for stress testing and we'll, you know, do the testing to rule out heart disease. But we, you know, very often the somatic factors would do to stress. So you have to look at that. You might feel lightheaded and things like that. Or you might feel fatigue. Or you might just feel.

illitable. I mean, there's many different ways in which you can feel the effects of chronic stress. So in your experience, talking about stress, and I know some of the things that we've covered here is about past experiences, especially in our relationships. And the common thing that sometimes comes up is that the power of forgiveness or the difficulty in being able to forgive what might have happened in the past. Does forgiveness impact? cardiac outcomes, and is there any scientific evidence to support this? Well, that's a very interesting question. When you look at the data, when we look at what has it been studied, there are certain

factors which have been studied tremendously, such as chronic stress we just mentioned, and that could be either perceived stress or it could be stressed that situational, like unemployment, for example, or marital stress or things like that. We look at optimism versus pessimism. That's a mindset that has been studied. There's newer data with gratitude and so forth. There is some data in terms of the ability to forgive, in terms of forgiveness trait. People have a tendency to be able to either let go or the people hold on.

And the data there isn't as strong as with other things just because it hasn't been studied. But there is data that show that people, for example, who, score low on forgiveness, actually have higher heart rate and blood pressure reactivity, like when you're exposed to a stress, the blood pressure and heart rate may go higher. So there's some tantalizing data there that is probably not so good. But you can also argue just psychologically, you know, in terms of quality of life, a person who can let go, I say a difference between, let's say, a Teflon personality and a Velcro personality, are you able to let go?

You hold out to things. The more we're able to let go, we don't have your resentments and other things living in our mental furniture. So for that reason alone, it's good to work on things like for goodness. And I think one of the things just kind of thinking about how to develop a more resilient mind, there are different domains that we can look at. And I know a big component is like education changing your mindset, but from your experience, it's more than that.

and you've created what is called the six domains of health. What are those and how can we start applying them in our lives? So this goes back to the very early part of my career when I started to look at the effects of chronic stress. And I came to the realization, wow, I have this opportunity having come from an academic background and having these tools available through imaging and through all the other things

and also being aware of what everybody else was doing, to say we can be very objective in terms of what is healthy and unhealthy. You know, I may come up with ideas, and anyone can come up with, you know, a formulation. This is healthy, unhealthy. But I became thirsty, but what does the body say is healthy or unhealthy? The body actually testifies to what is good for it or is not good for it. In other words, those things which promote longevity, which decrease the risk of chronic disease, which protect your physiology, are healthy.

And those things would shorten lifespan and cause disease unhealthy. So no one will argue that smoking is unhealthy for you. It shortened lifespan, cause cancer, heart disease, and so forth. No one will argue today that exercise in general is healthy for you. Same with a nutritious diet. Same with getting healthy sleep. That's in the physical domain. So he said, well, what are these other domains?

What are those things that objectively promote longevity and better health? Well, in the cognitive area, we have very strong data that optimists live longer, they have less heart disease, and pessimists the opposite. We have increasing data in terms of gratitude being the same. So we have this cognitive area that is a true health domain. In the emotional area, living with depression untreated is one of the most toxic things to your health. Under chronic depression, the body essentially goes haywire. You develop the same kind of stress response. You see with chronic stress, the amygdala and larger,

the prefrontal cortex shortens, small, you know, be shrinks. You'll develop visceral obesity. You'll develop inflammation. You'll develop insulin resistance. The body seems to go haywire. It does not tolerate depression for any long period of time.

On the other hand, people who are happy tend to live longer. That data is also quite clear now. So you have this domain now of the emotional domain. So you have physical, cognitive, and you have emotional. What about the social domain? Well, we've known since the late 1970s, class at work began back then, that people who have a stronger social network,

even in terms of size, or people who have more stable or happy social relationships also live longer, and they have better physiology. And the opposite is true. Loneliness is a toxic factor in terms of our health. More recently, recently studied has been the issue of sense of life purpose.

And that's only about 15 years old in terms of hard data. I mean, there's data that goes back to biblical times in terms of theorists saying about the importance of living a purpose for life. But I'm talking in terms of in the medical world, we've had scales that we can apply patients. And lo and behold, dimple with a strong sense of purpose, also live longer, have less heart disease. This has been showing meta-analytical study. And then finally, the stress area is very fascinating because we've talked about chronic stress. But it turns out there's a U-shaped relationship in terms of your well-being and stress that people who have a moderate amount of stress are actually doing better than both ends of

the spectrum. They do better than people have, let's say, toxic stress, but also they do better than people who don't have stress. Generally, without stress, it doesn't come with, see, life in terms of pursuing goals and in terms of pursuing meaning comes with challenge, with stress. And that's good stress. Good stress, you know, challenges we undertake that we overcome, builds our self-esteem, our optimism, our confidence. It is a indicator of good health. So we have to understand that upside of stress. But those are your six domains of health. And it's all from studying how the body reacts in these particular different domains. Talking about stress, how can we differentiate between moderate slash good stress and toxic stress?

It's a subjective measure. What is toxic to another person, let's say public speaking, maybe a piece of cake to somebody else. So, you know, the best judge of that is how do you personally feel? Are you feeling a sense of tension? Are you feeling a sense of anxiety? Are you feeling in your mind, a sense of peace of mind or mind? you feel very torn. All these are factors in terms of how stress is affecting you.

And you mentioned that the benefits of people that are happier, people that are optimistic, also living longer. Why do you think people are not happy today? I don't know that people are more unhappy today. There's a perception that we have more stress today than in yesterday year. But is that true? I mean, 40, 50 years ago, you had to worry about, you know, getting tuberculosis. People in the 1970s were dying with heart disease threefold more than they are today. Looking back in 1970s, there was three times of many people dying from heart disease compared to cancer. Now it's almost neck and neck. We brought down the age-adjusted mortality rate by 70%. What we do have today is different forms of stress.

in terms of the spee of life, in terms of living in an internet information age. And now with AI, right, there's a new sense of what is that going to do to life and so forth? So stress has changed over time. I don't know that people are more unhappy. You know, I don't know that we have any such data. I just think the stress has changed over time. And what tools have you found to help us, beta, address? stress. So since it's subjective, right, if I'm finding one thing stressful, what can I do to

be like maybe my friend or my sibling who's able to handle it much better? Well, that is a very global question. I mean, there's so many things that go into all of these things. I would tell you that I believe these six domains of health are a roadmap because what happens is when you, they're each an entry point. So you would want to break it down. What can we do in terms of our mindsets and in terms about mental vitality to improve that. What can I do in terms of my sense of emotional well-being? What's going on in terms of my social life? The index, the best index now that we're talking, it comes to me of subjectively in terms of how you're doing is your sense of vitality. And by vitality, I actually have a medical definition for that. That is a,

vitality is this inner sense, a pleasurable inner sense of feeling energetic. I feel energetic. I feel, and it comes with a sense of agency. People have a strong. sense of vitality want to do things because we're built soul-wise to pursue a sense of meaning and so forth. So if your vitality is down, if that sense of feeling energetic is down, then you have to think about it. You have to see, wait a second. Is it because my thinking is off? Maybe I'm being unduly pessimistic. Maybe I'm worrying too much. Are I feeling lonely? Or maybe I'm spinning my wheels in terms of my work. Maybe it's an issue in time match. That's a big domain, I call time management of health domain, because I think it's really related to many

aspects of our health. So there's many features here in terms of what affects your well-being, and it's a very positive message because if you enter into improving one of these areas, you can create a virtuous cycle when you start to improve others. And you mentioned something interesting about time management, because it being like a factor that you consider as part of health and then go to it. Going back to what you're talking about, the speed of information that we are getting, how can we better manage our time when we feel like 24 hours is not enough to process and go through all the information that we are now exposed to?

Just answering that question would be a whole podcast now. I'll tell you, there's a couple of things that come to mind. I remember when I was 13 years old, walking to the library in those days, people still went to a library back then. I guess I'm dating myself, but I can remember feeling I was just 13 years old. There's so much to do. And I was only 13 years old. So that's a mindset, actually, that I think is very prevalent in society today. But how do you address that?

There's many ways to do that, technical and otherwise. One of the most profound things today is, I think, using what I call the 80-20-year-old, a very famous principle that was developed by this Italian individual in 1800s, where he looked at things like 80% of the land was owned by 20% of the people. And it became over time a principle that 80% of the things that really will bring you success come from 20% of the things you do. 80% of the sales come from 20% of the people in a workforce. So what happens is when we approach our job, we approach our work. And I had to learn this principle. This was something very difficult to me. I used to make these very elaborate to-do lists.

And somehow I had the sense that somehow, some way, someday I would have to, you know, get these things done. You know, and I remember taking this course by, what was the name of it? I think it was called getting things done. Anyway, it was about this whole system for how to get all these things done. But over time it came to realize, wait a second, prioritize the most important things you have to do for the next day. And don't make that list too long. For me, it's five to seven things. And just live in that five to seven.

Now, if you get that done during the day, you know, then we look at your list and look what else is of a priority. But what happens is that if you start to do this over time and you live with this as a little bit of, of mindset, you're actually filtering out the bottom 80%. It gets to the point you never have to do it because you're always living in that vital few of the things you do. And it has been a game changer for me in my life to have adopted that and see how it works. So I do have, I use a certain computer program where I have all the things that I would think about doing because, you know, I don't want it in my head, you know, but I might forget something. And then I have three columns that can sort it by levels of priority, but they check off.

The bottom one is, the last column is just for today. And that's what I just live within that, you know. And so many things that are on that list, just you never get to. And eventually I just delete them. And you develop what I call a priority consciousness. Let me look in priorities. I think that is one of the profound principles of time management. I can go through others, but that is one of the profound ones.

I think as I'm like listening to you, I'm thinking about my unlimited to-do lists. So I'm like, now I have an excuse to eliminate some things there. But I also think as I'm hearing about that priority consciousness, it can potential address people feeling so overwhelmed. Oh, absolutely. It is probably the biggest single principle to help people dealing with overwhelming. And so thank you for that, because in my head I'm like, I need to use this and review. visit that. And I want to go back to when you're talking about that sense of purpose, because one of

the works that I follow quite a bit is Simon Seneca, his work on starting with wife or companies and then thinking how that might apply for us in our individual life. And so what is it about purpose that might get a person to be healthier or to live long? Great question. It is the makeup of a human being. We have a basic psychological need. to live with a sense of meaning and purpose in our life. That's just the way we're constructed. We're constructed with two eyes, you know, two ears. We have a need to eat, to sleep.

These are biological needs, and these are needs that we're aware of. But we have basic psychological needs, which are true needs. I mean, this has been written about many people, Maslow was famous for his pyramid of self-actualization. Carol Rapp who's talked about these. She talks about six basics. psychological needs. The famous book by, you know, Mansearch for Purpose by Victor Frankel, he talked about the people who survived the Holocaust, where people who found a sense of meaning

and the experience. So we're built for this need to actualize a sense of purpose. And when we do, it feeds our vitality. It feeds that sense of feeling energetic and so forth. And the data, Again, the body testifies to this. When we live with a strong sense of purpose, we actually physiologically function better. We're happier. We have more dynamic social relationships because we're full of that sense of vitality. So that's why it's an important area to feed. You know, the thing that I think is interesting that comes to mind as we talk about this is,

how do you get at your sense of purpose? That's probably the question you're asking. Yeah. That's what you're asking. So there are various tools for that. One I call using what I call tuning fork moments. What are tuning fork moments? You know, tuning fork is like you press it and something's resonating.

So there are times in a life where we're doing something where when we're doing it, we feel gee, I really like this. I could be doing this forever. Time stops. You have a sense of this feels like me. Well, if you take those moments and you can think about them, either going back in your life or just paying attention, let's say over a period of months, and try to pay attention to what is it. You can analyze the pattern and say, hey, wait a second. Maybe I'm in this desk job as an accountant or so forth, but it's not feeding that creative side of me that I always wanted to do. Maybe I wanted

to write. Maybe I wanted to paint or something like that. Now, the interesting thing about that is that in today's world, you know, where you have to make a living and so forth, you could argue easily that we, I don't, I don't have time for feeding those tuning fork moments. Hopefully, you would gravitate toward a job that might feed your tuning fork moments, but let's say you didn't. But you could always put 15 minutes or 30 minutes on your plate per week. Let's say, take the writing example, for example. You could write 30 minutes every Sunday, right? I mean, we could find a short period of time. When you put things on the plate, on the playing field, they say, then things can happen. But if it's never on the playing field, nothing happens.

So if you're, if it's on the thing and you have this identity that every Sunday I'm a writer for 30 minutes, you're paying attention to opportunities and things begin to happen. And the world is replete of examples of people who've succeeded by doing that. So that's a big tool to use in terms of of that. There's one other tool that I think is really profound. And this really comes back to the time management question you had from a different perspective. There's classic work done by a person named Stephen Covey. He's no longer alive, but he was a, he was famous for the books. He wrote one was called the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Yeah. So he popularized a time management scheme there. He didn't invent it, but he popularized it, in which he

He talked about time in terms of importance and urgency. And he said, based on that, you can have like a two-by-two table, if you can imagine it. Or if you could show it under a screen, you know, in terms of time being, quadrant one would be things which are important and urgent. Quadrant two would be important, but they're not urgent. Quadrant three would be they're urgent and not important. And quadrant four would be what he calls a quantitative waste. It's neither urgent nor important. Okay.

What we're always drawn toward it is the urgent. Now, when it's urgent and important, that's fine. But very often we're drawn to things that are urgent, but not important. All the phone calls. If you have your phone on notifications and you don't silence it, you may be called to a lot of things on that. A lot of things you have to do in your job are things that you deem are not important, but they're urgent because your boss expects it or things like that.

Well, Covey, when he wrote this book, he said, quadrant two was the quadrant of greatness. It was those things that are important and life, but not urgent. They don't call economists. We have to be mindful. What I say as a physician is, unfortunately, much of what we have to do in terms of health is important but not urgent. Like, you know, getting out and exercising. Or, you know, working on making a better home environment in terms of food. And in terms of food, let's prepare salads ahead of time and so forth.

There's nothing that goes on in terms of alarm valves in your body if you don't do resistance training. But over the course of a lifetime, that will make a big difference in terms of whether you're somebody who's frail or has a lot of vigor when you're 80 years old. The problem, very often with health, is that problem. You have to be intentional about it because it's not urgent. And it's also true for many of the other things we want to pursue in life in terms of meaningful goals, those life goals that we would, those would be goals we would regret that if we never did them, but they're not calling upon us now. So we have to be intentional. And the trick, the trick, the magical potion for dealing with that is to have minimal standards, to actually take time out

and think about your life and say, you know, let's look at the short term and the long term. And I know the long term is never going to be urgent to me because it's a long term. It's not now. But how can I develop minimal standards where I put some of that into my life right now? And for someone who's like listening to this, hearing those six domains of health is like, okay, I'm overwhelmed and I want a place to start. Which area would you recommend they start? Or is it something that is dependent on the person themselves? Absolutely dependent on the person.

Because let's say you're lonely. You'd start with that. You can look at what's, a good place to start is what's, what do you think, now is drawing down your vitality. Because the place to get to is vitality. Because once you have vitality, you have more energy to deal with different things. So you would start with, okay, these six domains, which one is drawing down my vitality now? And it could be as simple as you're not getting enough sleep.

Or you're eating a diet, which is dragging you down. People don't pay enough attention to how what they eat affects them. And if they do, they may be surprised. or you're just not getting any exercise in exercises. Such a potent way of increasing your vitality. I'll tell you, I tend to go to a gym. The minute I walk in a gym, I feel energetic, you know. And I can't recall a time I went to the gym and regretted afterwards having gone,

you know, because I know it builds my sense of vitality. People have to, in the own lives, figure out what are the things that are my energy boosters and start with that first, you know, make sure your energy's up. And do these domains of health apply to both adults and children? Because I'm thinking if I'm a parent listening to this, and I want to ensure that my kids are also healthy and vital when they grow up, is it the same idea or do I need to adapt them in any way for my kids? It's such an important question.

So children are, we're teaching our children, right? and we're teaching them through more than anything our behaviors. We model things more than anything we would say to them. And the things we're discussing right now are not things that are taught in school. I remember I took algebra geometry, world history. I took pretty sophisticated classes, actually. But it's not built to teach you how to deal with a lot of these things, how to build a great social life, for example.

It's not you're not doing that. So I think that that's something that a parent bequeaths to a child if they're intentional about it. You want to teach your children healthy mindsets. You want to teach them about gratitude, for example. Well, how are you going to do that? Well, what if you take out, you know, before maybe the weekend meal to say once a week, you know, let's all review this past week and discuss one or two things we were grateful for. How powerful can that be with your children?

That's incredibly powerful. But what happens is we just get so busy and we're living life reactively in terms of, you know, all the things we have to do. And we're so focused on a societal basis in terms of our external achievements and what we have to do. And we don't do it. We just, you know, it's quadrant two. It's something important but not urgent. So, again, we don't attend to it, but we should. We really should.

You know, we should, everybody should have a few mindsets that they want to bequeath to their children. and then figure out tools for how to do that through steps of action, because kids will respond more not to what you say to them, but what you do. And for anyone who wants to learn more about your work, your domains, where can they find you? Okay. So, first of all, I have a website under my name, Alan Wisniewski.com, and on it you'll find a lot of blogs which deal with each of the Sikhs domains of health. podcasts such as this one will

they'll all on my website as well and we've initiated the newsletter as well and I'm also very active on LinkedIn so people want to connect with me there if they're also active on LinkedIn I'd be happy to do that and you know we have a lot of fun on LinkedIn so those are two ways to find

and if there's one thing you want people to live this episode with what would it be I would emphasize that issue of what is health. And to understand that health is not just the absence of disease, the way we sometimes think of it.

So you have to ask you what is health. Health is that sense of vitality. It is that sense of feeling energetic. And use that as a vital sign. If my energy is down, let me look at the six domains as a roadmap and ask myself, if there's something in terms of what I'm thinking about, am I lonely, am I not succeeding in my goals, am I overwhelmed in terms of my time usage?

Or do I need to perk up, you know, some stress management tools, which we could, we discussed a few of them, but there's many more. And that's what I want people to think about, you know, my energy. How can I improve it? Use it as a vital sign. Thank you so much for your perspective, your expertise and your time, Dr. Rizanke, in terms of sharing with us all your knowledge. Really appreciate it.

It's been a pleasure to be here. Thank you for listening. Continue strengthening your mind by subscribing and listening to our other episodes.