The Resilient Mind - Courage Over Comfort: How to Step Into Your Power - Brene Brown

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Brené Brown is a research professor, bestselling author, and renowned speaker known for her work on vulnerability, courage, shame, and empathy. With over two decades of research, she has authored multiple New York Times bestsellers, including Daring Greatly and The Gifts of Imperfection, and her TED Talk on vulnerability is one of the most-watched in history. Through her books, podcast (Unlocking Us), and leadership teachings, she inspires individuals and organizations to lead with authenticity and resilience.Take action and strengthen your mind with The Resilient Mind Journal. Get your free digital copy today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Download Now⁠⁠Special thanks to Lewis Howes, subscribe to his channel here: https://www.youtube.com/c/lewishowesWatch the full interview on Lewis's page: https://youtu.be/TbsRU-crgsc?si=a7m0Auk1XFBVMGln Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Resilient Mind podcast. In this episode, you will be listening to Courage Over Comfort, how to step into your power with Brenna E. Brown. Get access to the Resilient Mind Journal by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy. I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering.

Yeah. That's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was an eighth grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don't think it is what we think it is. You know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis.

Really? Yeah, I can feel really lonely. Why? And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted. Yes. Super private. And so I love that connection between me and audio.

but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one, it's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone

and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself. And sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance.

I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me. believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes. We're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. We're all trying to figure it out. I don't get to copy anybody. And so it's hard.

Yeah. It's still hard. But here's a thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me. So even when I feel alone and I wonder like who's my crew and who are my people, I belong to me for sure for the first time in my life maybe. I was so shocked to learn in the research

that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking who do I need to be, what do I need to say, what do I need to wear, how do I need to act, and changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are.

Because if we fit in, if we fit in because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself for other people. And that's not sustainable. Yeah, you start to lose yourself. You start to lose yourself exactly what you said. And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are.

What makes me complex is I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like, I speak in public. I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted. I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, yes, ma'am, no ma'am. But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it.

Sure, sure. Yeah. So I think I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people. but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. Yeah. And so I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort.

Yeah. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull. Sure. And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined. You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in. It's true.

It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard. I mean, it's this thing that. it's a quote that is Braving the Wilderness is all about this

starts with this quote from Maya Angelou that we're never free until we belong nowhere we belong everywhere which is nowhere which is no place at all which I thought was a terrible quote for many years and I was like why are you saying that Dr. Angelo you're pissing me off but then I realized really the and she says the

cost is high but the reward is great And I think that's the thing that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard. Yeah. I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice. Wow.

Yeah, because I can be whoever you want me to be like that. You're like a chameleon, you said. Oh, I can be totally like a chamelea. Like sometimes it's really funny because I always, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class, and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too.

Sure. But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person like, And it's so funny because we'll talk about sports, usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics, and he'll say, what do you do? And I'll say, study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh, well, I'm going to play some angry birds, you know, and right that moment. Like, I can just, it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just, but I think I can be anything. Yeah, you're adaptable.

I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great. Because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable. Of course. But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here, no matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense?

Because they feel safe coming back. No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to. Yeah. And I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a church. or you were on the drill team and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things. The newspaper. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Photographer of the yearbook. Yeah. But those things did not have a lot of value.

Really? No. Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile. No, it's just cool was the number one value at home. cool, lots of friends, popular. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And, you know, that just goes bad fast.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the miracle of my parents. Like my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like, they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me, not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up. Really?

No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like, our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready, you know, family trips. You're in the car for five hours. That's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom. But the rest stop is on the other side of the highway. We're not pulling over.

Like, suck it up, hold it. Like, we were tough. we were tough. Like we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say like, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball. You know, like, yeah, like, we were tough. And so, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability.

We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done. And so however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, His dad died when he was 16, you know. Was he able to process that or no? No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball.

My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at her house growing up. Because it was the 50s, and she was divorced. You know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team and the, you know, the valedictorian. And so however hard it was for me growing up having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. Yeah.

And they didn't, they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have, I think the hard part comes for people that I've interviewed my whole life where the people, parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did, as opposed to my parents who lean in and say, tell me more about that. I have a funny story. We hear a funny story about my dad?

Yeah, it's great. So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so choice, my husband's a pediatrician. So, like, we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices. like Lewis you have two choices you can either hand me the water I'm going to have to take it from you what is your choice so that if you

decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it it's not my fault that was your choice right and so one night I was talking to Ellen we were my dad's house in San Antonio and I was like Ellie you need to turn off door to Explorer it's time to go to bed and she's like mm-mm and I said Ellen you have two choices you can get up and turn off

the TV or I'm going to get it up and turn off for you and if I have to get up and you know turn off the TV you're going to lose privileges to watch it tomorrow. And that's your choice. Yeah, that's your choice. So do you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me and he's like, ah, damn, sis, what are you raising

a hostage negotiator? I was like, dad, and he's like, seriously, Renee, we had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. Yeah. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio and he's watching Ellen, and he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio. And he's sweating.

He's like, Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up or I'm going to have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumb-ass choice. So I was like, wow, you're so close. You're getting there. You're getting there. But my parents are amazing in that way that, like, they're learning and changing. So I think it's harder when parents say, I'm done.

What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change. Take it or leave it. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker. Wow. And I think we see that a lot. Yeah, we deal.

I believe this with my whole heart. I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have. Yeah. I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done,

better or that I could learn from that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield. Yeah. You know, I mean, a great example is the work you're doing around men in vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers in the hundreds, if not thousands of fathers I've interviewed that said I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable. Yeah.

I put him down. I made fun of them. I hit him. every time he was vulnerable. And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding giving yourself permission to not have been, I'm not perfect. Like, you know, like I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician.

Our kids will be in therapy. You're right. And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is there's only two kind of kids you raise, kids who will. ask for help when they need it are kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets, is to raise a kid who will ask for help. Yeah, I never asked for help. Yeah. I was always suffering inside.

Yeah, right. And I always felt shameful, guilty. And I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports or outside of sports, because that's all I knew. I'll tell you a story about a guy that I interviewed, one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all women to men was a guy who said, I said, was a guy who I said, was. What is shame for you? And he used the P-U-S-S-Y word, which is like just synonymous with shame in male culture, right? Yeah. And he said, I'll never forget the day that changed my life.

He said, I was at football practice. I was a freshman in high school. And he said, the coach yelled, get on the line. And I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage in case people don't know. I know you know, but he asked me to make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with them now. Exactly. And he said, I was afraid to get on the line because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other.

And so I must have had fear on my face because my coach looked at me and said, don't be a P-U-S-S-Y, get on the line. And he said, that's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage. And he said, and I just plowed over the guy across from me. And then he said, then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me. Yeah. He said, that's what I did with my fear.

50% of the readers who are daring greatly are men. And the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Wise men. I can, I hope. I can flip it for you on a dime. Yeah. So it used to take me when men would say, this is how the call would go.

hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk. We thought it was great. Are you available? And I'd say, sure, what do you want me to talk about? And they'd say anything but vulnerability and shame. And I would say... Why?

So what do you want me to talk about if I don't talk about vulnerable? And they'd say, courage. And then I would say, okay, then I would try to spend like a half an hour explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage. Yeah. Because all men want to be brave. Isn't vulnerability courage? Vulnerability is courage.

Is it vulnerability power? Yes, I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing. It's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in or that you've ever even witnessed that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question because I know the answer is no. Because I've asked it thousands and thousands.

I've stood in front of Navy SEALs. and special forces military personnel and said, give me an example. I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability. And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said, we're going to think about it and get with you.

And I said, oh my God, I said, do it. I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field that doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave. If you know how it's going to turn out,

it's not courage. And so in that moment, people go, shit. But I want to be brave and I don't want to be vulnerable. And I'm like, therein lies, the great dilemma of our time. Right, right. Yeah. No one wants to be uncomfortable. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave.

And it just doesn't work like that. I mean, when I ask people, what is vulnerability? People would say initiating sex with my wife, sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra. And knowing he's probably not going to make the orchestra at all. Getting fired. Starting my own business. Saying I love you first in a relationship. Trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage.

I mean, like, vulnerability is. it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway because it's the brave thing to do. And so the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak. And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. And so men do two things in the face of shame. Pissed off or shut down. Put on a mask. Put on a mask.

Yeah. And so what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations, give hard feedback, receive hard feedback. Excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage. Like my motto is we say it here all the time,

choose courage over comfort because you can't have both. And if you think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave. Thank you for tuning in. Continue strengthening your mind by listening to our other episodes. Download the Resilient Mind Journal by clicking the link in the show notes.