The Resilient Mind - How to Train Your Brain Like a Monk, using Neuroscience - Ariel Garten

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

Watch the full video interview on the new Resilient Mind YouTube channel: youtube.com/watch?v=ikGL4ou58esAriel Garten is a neuroscientist, artist, and tech entrepreneur best known as the founder of InteraXon, the company behind the widely popular Muse brain-sensing headband. As a former psychotherapist who trained in labs researching Parkinson's disease, she built a company that pioneered consumer neurotechnology. Garten is a global keynote speaker and thought leader who seamlessly blends science, innovation, and wellness. Today, she uses her extensive expertise to unpack the complexities of the mind and guide listeners toward better mental well-being.We’ve partnered with Muse to get our listeners 20% off with the code RESILIENTMIND. Access it here:https://choosemuse.com/resilientmindConnect With Ariel:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ariels_musings/?hl=enLinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/arielgarten X: https://x.com/ariel_garten?lang=enWebsite: https://choosemuse.com/Take action and strengthen your mind with The Resilient Mind Journal. Get your free digital copy today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/Download_Journal Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Resilient Mind Podcast. In this episode, you'll be listening to how to train your brain like a monk using neuroscience with Ariel Garden. This episode is also available in video. Watch it on YouTube by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy. You have the ability to change your mindset. You can and you will make real lasting change. What factors influence those different brain states?

Many, many factors that influence the brain states because their brains are very complex. One of the things we hear a lot is I can't meditate. Meditation gives you back time. If you're busy, meditate for 10 minutes. If you're incredibly busy, meditate for an hour. In a world right now where we have got lots of information, constant destruction. You can't hold attention on two things effectively simultaneously. What does news track exactly and how do you train your brain?

So you're actually hearing your brain activity while you meditate. It's totally amazing. For people who might have a diagnosis, so if I've got an anxiety disorder, does your system also help in those cases? What you can measure, you can change. So when we don't sleep, our emotional resilience significantly decreases. So many questions just popped into my head. Welcome to another episode of the Resilient Mind podcast. And today we are joined by Ariel Garten, the founder of News, who is a neuroscientist, psychotherapist, entrepreneur, and a thought leader. in the field of neurotechnology and meditation. Ariel, thank you for being here.

Oh, it's my joy and pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. So I don't you start off by hearing your story in terms of how you started Muse, what Muse is, and what was the experiences you had in the past that got you to this point? Yeah, so Muse is a brain-sensing headband that helps you improve your mental fitness.

It tracks your brain and gives you real-time feedback on your mind while you're meditating. It improves your sleep. It can track your sleep as effectively as a sleep lab. It can help you train your oxygen delivery to your brain. So it's a multimodal device that is incredibly helpful to teach you to track and train your brain. And I started in the process of building this back in 2000. So, oh my God, just about 25 years ago at this point, where I was a young neuroscience graduate working in a research lab with Dr. C. man. He's one of the inventors of the wearable computer. And he had an early brain computer interface system that we were using to translate people's brainwave activity into sound. And I realized that

that could be used to give you insight on your brain state. So me and my co-founders got together and started the very, very long journey of going from a clinical grade EEG in the lab to a slim, sleek device that, you know, anybody could wear just like an Apple Watcher a Fitbit that could track your EEG. And now we have even other technology inside of it in order to help you track and train your brain. And when we're talking about tracking and training our brain, because we hear about a lot of tools that help improve like your mental fitness, what does Muse track exactly and how do you train your brain? Awesome. So Muse tracks many things because we have various different forms of sensor technology. So the EEG electroencephalograph sensors are tracking your brain wave

activity so they can look at shifts in your brain state. So those are very useful for tracking your various brainwave frequencies, how much alpha, beta, theta you've got. And they're also useful to help you train meditation. So we have a beautiful experience that actually gives you real-time feedback on your brain while you're meditating so that you know when you're focused and when your mind is wandering. So it's tracking your brain during meditation and giving you guidance when you're in meditation to stay there. And when your mind is wandering,

it gives you guidance to help you come back to the meditation state. And then afterwards you can see your charts, graph scores, things that showed you moment to moment what your brain was doing. Fascinating. And so when we're looking at the brain activity of a person, let's say, who's experiencing anxiety or depression or they're worrying a lot, It's just a person who's calm.

What is happening in the brain during those different states? So there are many things happening in the brain in all states. And it's kind of like your neurons are an orchestra. And when somebody is experiencing a state of anxiety, their neurons are firing in particular patterns that tend to emit more high beta activity that indicate more anxious thinking, ruminative thinking. And if you're in a depressed state, sometimes we emit more activity in our default mode network. And if you are depressed, there's also differences that you can see in the frontal brain waves, the left brain waves versus the right brain waves in the prefrontal cortex.

So there is a number of different characteristics signatures of different states. So high beta is often related to anxiety thinking. High alpha is often related to a state of calm and focus. Where you're experiencing that high alpha and your brain can refer to different things. So when you close your eyes, you get something called the alpha block. And so there you see really high alpha activity from the back of your head. And as we think or we do anything, we have a overall composition of all of these brainwaves. As we shift states, we can shift into more of one brainwave being representative or

dominant in our brain activity. So, for example, as you're falling asleep, you go through alpha, and then when you're in deep sleep, our brain really comes together in a strong delta wave. So delta is incredibly slow activity. And when you're asleep, during deep sleep, your brain is all synchronized in this beautiful delta activity, which is possibly one of the reasons that deep sleep is so restorative for the brain, because the whole brain is really sinking on the same rhythm. And I'm wondering for going to those different brain activity states, what influences them the most? Is it experiences what's happening in our life? Or is it our thoughts if you're like ruminating on something that has happened in the past?

Is it a combination? What factors influence those different brain states? So there's many, many factors that influence the brain states because our brains are very complex. But overall, you can generalize and say that when you are an anxious ruminative, you're in VEDA, when you're more calm and relaxed, you're in a slower, more coherent brainwave state. So again, if we go back to the analogy of an orchestra, if the orchestra is not all playing at the same time in the same rhythm, it's going to sound really chaotic and complex. And that's also a representation of the chaotic complex activity involved in her brain at any

moment. But sometimes when you get into a particular state, like a flow state or a meditative state, you have more of the orchestra syncing together and all playing in the same rhythm and the same beat. So in meditation, for example, I see a significant increase in alpha activity in multiple parts of the brain, which is an indication that your brain is all now synchronizing into that very restful state. And I love that you mentioned that it helps with meditation because one of the things we hear a lot is, I can't meditate or maybe people feel like meditation is kind of over-prescribed for his lack of a better word for when they're going through difficult challenges. And so how does Muse help with that meditation? So this talked about the part that they get that feedback and then so exactly how does

that work, are they able to see that I'm out of the meditative state. I'm in the meditative state and then it tracks that. Yep. So you're actually hearing your brain activity while you meditate. It's totally amazing. So when you're in focused attention, you hear gentle, peaceful sounds. And if you maintain your focused attention, your meditation state, then you hear chirping of birds. But if your mind wanders onto a thought, which all of our minds do, you're going to hear the sound get louder and usually the sound of rain picks up. So this rain is a representation of your stormy mind. As soon as you hear the rain, it becomes your cue to bring your attention back off of that thought and onto your breath and to quiet the sounds. And it's really affected because it gets you to

really tangibly understand what your brain is doing. You can know like, oh, I was wandering and thought, okay. And then you're queued to come back to your meditation. And then you're reinforced by little bird chirps that literally give neurofeedback to your brain to say, yep, this is the right state. Stay there. You're doing it. You're doing it. And so you're both cognitively learning how to do this process, experientially doing it, and then having it reinforce your brain to know that this is right. And then afterwards you see what your brain was doing and you can see the progress that you're making. You see your graphs, you know, improve session after session, which becomes highly rewarding and really encourages people to build a solid and really effective meditation practice. And I'm wondering for people, let's say, I don't know if this applies, but for people who might have a diagnosis.

So if I've got an anxiety disorder or I've been diagnosed with depression or autism, does your system also? help in those cases or is it more in the wellness space? So we fall under the FDA category of a general wellness device where the guidance says that Muse can be helpful for those who are living with conditions like depression, anxiety, diabetes, cancer, et cetera. And anecdotally, we've heard from people in various conditions that it has significantly improved their quality of life and their ability to manage their symptoms. And actually, that even shows out from a research perspective.

So Mews is widely used by the Mayo Clinic, for example. They did a study demonstrating that using Mews improves the cancer care process by decreasing stress and anxiety and improving quality of life. They did other studies demonstrating that Mews even improves long COVID symptoms, that it can improve cognition and long COVID and decrease stress and anxiety. And then there's another study from them demonstrating that Mews improves fibromyalgia, improves quality of life for super busy doctors and reduces burnout and cognition. So over and over again, the research has been very positive in demonstrating the significant impact that Muse can have in your life with or without a chronic condition. That's exciting. That's actually really exciting.

And when people are using Muse, are there any, what changes do you notice in the brain? That's a great question. So there's a very cool study from the Catholic University of Milan. And they had two groups of people, a control and the intervention. One group was meditating on their own with standard instruction. And the other group was meditating using muse. And what they found was after a month of 10 to 20 minutes of meditation per day, the meditation group, meditation alone group, decreased their stress and improved some of their

functioning. But the muse group actually showed measurable changes in the brain. So the Muse group also significantly decreased their stress, improve their cognitive function, and also showed characteristics of their brainwave activity that demonstrated their brain was in a more focused and calm state throughout the day, not just during their practice. And that is like really encouraging because I always think in terms of when we are meditating, we don't have a way of measuring it. Sometimes it's very subjective, but it sounds like with using neural feedback, you are able to, to have a little bit more concrete and objective measures of actually what's going on in your brain so you can know whether you're actually making progress or you're not making progress.

That's exactly it. Not only that, we teach you how to make progress. So, you know, just like a coach can give you feedback or, you know, Mir gives you feedback. Then you have a coach that says, hey, you know, do this now, do this now. And then you actually really improve. In a world right now where we have got lots of information, constant distraction, How has the current world influenced our ability to be focused and to attend to the things happening in our life? It's obviously become significantly more difficult to hold our attention on a single item because we have constant distractions. We have things on our phone. We have the desire for Facebook.

We have people we want to connect with images of things popping up on our phones and our screens constantly. I'm looking at how many tabs open, like 15 tabs open on my computer. And this kind of distraction is incredibly difficult to manage and has become even more difficult in our fast-paced world. You know, we have super brief news clips. News is always bombarding us. And so in this kind of environment, it becomes even more critical to learn to manage your attention.

And that's one of the key skills that you learn in meditation. You learn the ability to manage where your attention is going. And when a distraction comes your way, to not give in to. it. So with a meditation practice, you're constantly observing your mind, staying focused on your breath, on a single neutral thing. When a thought comes up, you then have the choice to follow that thought and stop meditating or let that thought go, let go of the distraction and come back to the task at hand. And it becomes incredibly useful in making you more effective and efficient in your day because you no longer pulled by distractions. It becomes incredibly useful in making deeper connections

with people because now you're actually listening to what they're saying and bringing your attention back to them rather than being distracted by the room around you. And it becomes really powerful as a tool to bring you into the present moment, into the tangible reality of your life and out of the constant stream of dizzying distraction. I'm going to make a statement and let me know if it's true. We feel overwhelmed because we do not have conscious control of our attention. What are your thoughts about that? it's in part true. I think when we do not have conscious control of our attention and we have a lot

of incoming information, then, of course, overwhelm is a natural experience that you're going to have. You can be in a situation where you have a lot of distracting information coming to you, but you manage your attention appropriately and then you don't become overwhelmed. There are, however, situations in which the information coming at you from multiple angles is all meaningful or, you know, feels meaningful and there are situations where we have just too much to handle. And then it's not simply a problem of our attention and our ability to manage it. It's a problem of too much coming our way that really needs and demands our attention and our inability to both prioritize it and manage the emotional impact of it and manage our ability to prioritize. No, no, it's important,

as well as managing our ability to respond and react to it appropriately. You know, there's times in life when somebody is sick and you need to get this thing done for work and your kid is crying and bugging you because they need something too. And like that leads to significant overwhelm. And tools like meditation, although simply being able to, you know, focus your attention on one thing, not the other, sounds like it's magical. You know, meditation can teach you how to at least turn down the noise. on the things that are not as pressing in the moment and manage the emotional impact of the stuff

in our lives and not make big emotional stories out of it, which can really help us manage overwhelm in situations where the stakes are really high and the stuff that's coming your way is truly difficult. And is there a way to increase our capacity to manage many things happening in our life? Is that something that can be trained or any tools we can use to increase our ability? did you do that? That's a great question. And, you know, any neuroscientist is going to tell you that you can't hold attention on two things effectively simultaneously. You know, people who say that they're multitasking really are just task switching and there's a loss of productivity that happens in that task switching. If you're somebody who, for example, has ADD, it's much more painful

to focus on just one thing than it is to task switch and bounce around and you really have to train yourself to stop task switching and make it feel safe and okay and capable and train your prefrontal cortex, train, you know, the muscle of your brain, to use an analogy, to focus in the moment. Are there ways that we can learn to become more effective at managing multiple streams of information? You know, the answer there is yes, and that is by learning to prioritize and learning to turn down the volume, disengage our attention from the things that don't matter as much, and then have the sufficient resource, because switching your attention is exhausting. It's exhausting for your brain. So you have to have sufficient resource, hydration, nutrition, sleep in order to be

able to really manage the complex task of managing multiple pieces of information in a short period of time. You've said that you can't change what you can't measure. What does that mean in the context of emotion and mental health? So what I actually said is what you can measure, you can change. Oh, the positive version of that. Exactly, exactly. Because there are definitely things we can't measure that we do change all the time, like our minds or our tastes.

But it also, the corollary to that is if you can measure it, it makes it much easier to change it because you can see what's going on. You know, you use the example of a mirror. We could just be walking around in our lives and having no idea what our hair, for a vein example. You know, no idea what our hair looks like or what's on our face. Then you look in a mirror and you're like, oh, that's what's going on. Okay, let me smooth it out on this side. Let me wash the face. Maybe put on some lipstick. And, you know, in a very short period of time, by measuring, by being shown, by seeing what was previously hidden, we can then make a conscious effort to change it and then see the results and know that, hey, I've done something, I see the results, I see the change, and then you

become motivated to continue that change. Because change is complicated. You know, change is not just doing something once, change is doing something and then maintaining that something new, you know, maintaining that habit. And that takes constant reinforcement. And so tools that give you measurement, feedback, guidance are the things that really help you make real lasting change. And what do you think are some common mental roadblocks that people face that allow them to build their mental capacity or their resilience? So one roadblock that people commonly face in being able to build their resilience or their capacity is not being properly nutrition and not sleeping enough. So when we don't sleep,

our emotional resilience significantly decreases. So you know what a child is like when they miss their nap? They're cranky and unreasonable. Us adults, too, we just hide it better. And so if you really want to increase your resilience, your emotional self-management, your cognitive capacity, sleep is key. And we can talk about how Muse helps with sleep in a little bit. Another important key to another important roadblock that sometimes gets in the way,

is our own mentality about change. I know for myself for many years, I thought that changing my mentality would be scary because it meant I'd be losing a part of myself. I also believed that changing my mentality or changing anything about me would be scary or bad or hard because the fact that I felt like I needed to change it meant that there must have been something wrong and I didn't want to look at the fact that something might be wrong. I just wanted to hide from it. So, you know, both of those were limiting beliefs that really kept me from being able to make easy, rapid change. There was another lingering belief that, you know, my parents loved me so much as I was that maybe I shouldn't change. So, you know, there's a kind of funny way to put it, but, you know, there was a,

there's a little feeling of, you know, maybe if I'm different, I won't be loved in the same way. Very, very, like, small, deep, seated feelings. So, you know, many of us have these, weird, not weird, but illogical once you bring them to light, deep-seated fears around change. And if we'll be accepted if we change, will we be the same person? How will we function? Will we be just as good? Will we be better? Is it okay that I wasn't good before? And so sometimes if you're trying to make change and it's not sticking, it can really help to look at your underlying beliefs and see if they are keeping you from being able to enact bigger changes in your life. And so how did you become, first you became aware of the beliefs, but how did you

switch your beliefs? Lots of work. So that, you know, points to another thing that keeps people from changing, which is you can have an insight about yourself, what needs to be better or improve, but then you actually have to stick with that change and make the thing a new habit and do it over and over and over again. So in, you know, the example of exercising more often, that's more tangible and you can put it in your calendar and you have to remember to exercise and people see you do it and you're doing this, you know, physical thing, okay, now I'm exercising once a day. You start 10 minutes on the bike and you work up from there. With making mental change, it's much less obvious and much harder, but actually requires the same level of tenacity.

So you might begin with a, you know, recognizing that you have a broken, belief like, I don't deserve to make money. You just pulled one out of thin air. Then you have the opportunity once you've uncovered that belief to look at, is that true or not? And if you discover that it's not true, that you do have the ability to make money, you then have to constantly rewire your conditioning around this. And anytime a trigger around money comes up, you might feel like, oh, the old narrative is triggered. And then you actively have to bring in the new narrative. that you're working to change. Yes, I am worthy of making money.

And here's the evidence about it. And here's what I'm doing about it. So just like going to the gym or eating well or any of these habits that we take on, the habit of mental change is something that you need to practice and practice regularly. And it requires a skill of self-observation, being able to notice your thoughts and notice your intentions, and then the skill of choosing a different way, making a different path. both of which are key skills that you learn during meditation. You learn to observe your thinking in your mind.

You're not just subject to the thoughts that are like driving you through life. You can actually see them. And then you learn to say, hey, I don't need to think of this thought right now. I can take my brain somewhere else. And what are your personal daily rituals or non-negotiable habits that you now practice? Awesome. So obviously meditation is one of them. I do a meditation in the morning and in the evening.

I've mentioned sleep many times because it really is from somebody who studies the brain a lot. It really is a non-negotiable. You want to be sleeping whatever the right amount of time is for you, but it's usually at least seven hours a night. And for those that say, oh, I can get by on four hours, it's like probably lying to yourself and also probably doing mental damage to yourself in the long run. There's higher instances of age-related cognitive decline with people who sleep poorly. So, you know, sleep is key.

And that's why one of the big tools that we've built in Muse is a tool that actually tracks your sleep as effectively as a sleep lab. It's an EEG, just like they use in a sleep lab. And we have tools with bio and neurofeedback, like the digital sleeping pill, that help you actually fall asleep. And if you wake up in the night, help you fall back asleep. And that's been demonstrated to improve sleep quality by 20%. And then the other practice that I have that is started recently is doing our muse mental strength sessions. So we talked a lot about eugen brainwaves, but the newest muse device is the Athena device also has another technology inside of it called FNIRS that tracks the blood flow to your brain and actually gives you exercises and neurofeedback to help you increase the blood flow and the oxygen delivery to your brain. So that's another key practice that helps you strengthen your prefrontal cortex, strengthen your attention, your ability to inhibit, and your ability to self-regulate.

So many questions just popped into my head. But really quickly, did you say digital sleep pill? I did. What is that? I don't think I've ever heard that before. Okay. So we have two generations of mews. We have the muse two, which helps you with meditation training and track some cognitive metrics.

And then we have the Muse S. Athena device. And that comes with the meditation and brain training, as well as sleep tracking and sleep intervention. So since Muse is a clinical grade EEG system, the same thing that they use in a sleep lab, we are actually able to track sleep far more effectively than a wrist tracker or ring tracker because it's actually tracking the thing that they use in research labs. And in fact, Muse is now widely used for at home sleep research by people like Stanford. And we've created this amazing program that can help you fall asleep if you have difficulty sleeping. And what you're doing is you're listening to audio like a story or a soundscape. And as Muse begins to detect your shift from wakefulness into N1, which is the first stage of sleep, it starts to adjust the audio in such a way that it actually walks your brain into sleep. And it's super effective people who start using it, keep using it because they love it. It really, really helps sleep. And then if you wear the muse throughout the night and you wake up in the middle of the night,

muse can automatically bring in the same intervention that helped you fall asleep the first time to guide you gently back to sleep. Fascinating. Fascinating. Thank you. It really is. It's been unbelievable to create and to bring to the world and then to have, you know, tested and used in so many studies.

It's been amazing. You mentioned strengthening the prefrontal cortex. If we're to picture a person who's been training their brain, they have a strong prefrontal cortex, they're sleeping while, they're eating, well, what will that look like? Or what are the emotions the person who will be feeling? The reason I'm asking is to kind of paint a picture around what that would look like for people. Sure.

So the prefrontal cortex is the part of our brain right at the front on your forehead. And it's the part responsible for our planning, our attention, our inhibition. So keeping you from doing stupid things. Teenagers and young people have less developed prefrontal cortices. And as they develop, their prefrontal cortex develops, as does their ability to inhibit and not do things that are not good for them. So as we age, our prefrontal cortex thins. So as we grow and develop, your prefrontal cortex develops.

and becomes this beautiful part of your brain that allows you to think and plan and organize and attend and inhibit. And then once we start to enter into older adulthood, our prefrontal cortex begins to thin, just like much of our body starts to degrade in its capabilities. In a very cool study, it actually demonstrates that people who are long-term meditators can maintain the thickness of their prefrontal cortex even as the age. And why is this important? Well, our prefrontal cortex, aside from all those other amazing things I just mentioned, is the part of our brain that is responsible for our metacognition, the ability to sort of rise above and see, kind of we think about that as our wisdom.

And the prefrontal cortex is also responsible for downregulating our anxiety symptoms. So our prefrontal cortex is kind of like the parent, the wise one, the one who can sort of look around and see. okay, everything's fine. And our amygdala, the part of our brain that is responsible for our flight and fight response, the part of our brain that creates sensations of anxiety and fear thoughts, it's kind of like the child. And as we develop our prefrontal cortex and as we have a long-term meditation practice, the prefrontal cortex is actually better able to regulate the amygdala. So the prefrontal cortex is better able to say like, hey, amygdala, calm down, everything's fine. We can chill out. And so that's the prefrontal cortex is actually. And so that's,

That's why people who are long-term meditators often look like people who are calm, collected, wise, insightful, and all those positive characteristics. And you touched on impulse control. Could impulse control be improved through meditation? Absolutely. Yes? That's one of the main outcomes of meditation is impulse control. Because you sit down and you might feel the sensation of like, oh my God, I got to get up.

This is like, I can't sit here. I can't sit in silence. But you're meditating. So your job is to notice that you've got a bunch of sensations. And instead of diving into those sensations and like making a bigger deal about them, we just say, nope, it's okay. Sensations, I see you exist. It's fine.

We're just going to sit here. You are literally learning to control those impulses and to not give into them. And you're learning to control the impulses both in your body and in your mind. So, you know, you have a thought come up like, oh, it's a beautiful day. You know, I wonder what Sally's doing. And then you say, hey, thought, we're not going to go there. We're going to come back to the task at hand. And so you're controlling your impulsive thinking.

And so when you're able to do that, you are able to really take control and direct your life in a new way and not be that person who's just like antsy and jumping from thing to thing or jumping, you know, grabbing for the cookies when you shouldn't. or like flopping on the couch when you should be exercising because it's just easier to flop on the couch. You're actually somebody who can notice the signals that your body is telling you and then make an informed decision about is this actually what's best for me and then choose a better path. What advice would you give to someone who wants to start taking the first step but feels that they are too busy to even start meditating? That is a very common feeling. So thank you for raising that. There's all sorts of, you know, wise old adages.

If you're busy, meditate for 10 minutes. If you're incredibly busy, meditate for an hour. There obviously sort of silly things to say, but the idea of that is that meditation gives you back time. Because in our lives, as we move about frantically, as we task switch, we waste a lot of time. We're really inefficient. And what meditation allows you to do is to be more in control of your mental space

and your priorities. So you're not wasting that time. You're not being distracted by Facebook or whatever it is. And so if you feel like you don't have time to meditate, there's always five minutes in the day. Choose five minutes for me, because I'm busy mom with a work life. It's the minutes in the morning before the kids wake up and the minutes in the evening after they've gone to bed, after the kitchen is cleaned, after all the stuff is done. I always have five minutes before I fall asleep. And if you start with that, begin your practice step by step, you will see the impact that it makes in your life.

life. And then just like people who exercise regularly and like love it and don't want to live without it because you're hooked, bit by bit meditation will become that for you. What excites you the most about the future of mental health tech and what concerns you? Ooh. I mean, when I look at the future of mental health in general, what excites me the most is one, the destigmatization. So the ability that we can deal with mental illness like a regular physical illness and not stigmatize it. Two, the shift. in our understanding as a society that people get depressed, people get anxious, you know, these are experiences that we all have, and that there are ways that you can manage it and change it. We're starting to understand the physiology of anxiety and depression and change that.

We're starting to understand the mindsets associated with that and how you make mindset shifts. So when I look at and I apply all of that technology, you know, technology is an amazing way to be able to deliver these insights without having to spend an hour with a psychotherapist twice a week, which is still a great thing to do. Former psychotherapist here, you know, still highly recommend psychotherapy and in-person coaching. But the internet and apps allow us to readily connect with therapists on our phones, you know, and little computers in our pocket, allow reminders for habit change to be automated in apps

and programs. So, you know, we are both creating tools that help you gain insight, that help you make change, and then help you reinforce and make lasting change in order to improve mental health. For the listeners that want to learn more about you, connect with you, or learn more about Muse and maybe purchase one, where can they find that information? You can go to choose muse.com, C-H-O-O-O-S-E-M-E-D-com, choose muse. And you can also find us on all of the socials at Choose Muse. Perfect.

If there's one key takeaway, you'll talk the listeners live here with, what is that? That you have the ability to change your mindset. I'm sure everybody tuning in knows that and that's why you're tuning in. Know that it can take time and it can take work. And by taking the steps of listening to information like this and then actually applying it to your life, actually going and plying the ideas in your daily life, you can make real, you can and you will make real lasting change. Thank you, Ariel. I appreciate your insight and your expertise and for taking the time today to share your message with us. Oh, it's my joy and pleasure. Thank you.

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