The Resilient Mind - Living A Life of Abundance - John Mackay

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

John Powell Mackey is an American entrepreneur and author. He is the co-founder of Whole Foods Market and was the CEO of the company from its inception in 1980 until his retirement in 2022.Take action and strengthen your mind with The Resilient Mind Journal. Get your free digital copy today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/Download_JournalDownload Mindset App for free and listen to 5000+ of the World's Greatest Motivational Speakers and Thought Leaders: https://bit.ly/mindsetxTheResilientMind Special thanks to Lewis Howes, subscribe to his channel here: https://www.youtube.com/c/lewishowesWatch the full interview on Lewis's page: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JcyPQPKqX0&t=1s Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Resilient Mind podcast. In this episode, you will be listening to Living a Life of Abundance with John McKay. Get access to the Resilient Mind Journal by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy. Why do you think so many people hate wealthy individuals? Because they're stuck in that, well, envy, but also stuck in that paradigm that if somebody has more, somebody has less rather than seeing that's not true. Business is creating value for other people and it's it's if you people don't understand history of where we were. For example, if you go back just

200 years ago, 200 years ago, 94% of everyone alive on this planet lived on less than $2 a day. Wow. 94% 85% lived on less than $1 a day. The average lifespan was 30. The illiteracy rate, 88% of the people alive on the planet couldn't read. That's 200 years ago. It has been science and capitalism that has lifted that up so that today the average lifespan is pushing 80 across this planet. Those numbers have reversed on the literacy. Now 90% of the people across the planet can read. The average lifespan has gone up and the average income, the abject poverty of people that make less than $2 a day, it's dropped to like 6%. Wow. It's, it'll be in. It'll be in. because as long as we continue to allow science and free markets and capitalism to lift people out of poverty,

people don't understand that. They don't know their history. They don't know where we were. When Renee and I started out, we were so poor that we moved out of the co-op and we moved into the store, which wasn't legal for us to live there. It wasn't zoned for that. We lived, it was an old house and we lived on the third floor of this house. It was an office. We didn't have a shower or bathtub or anything. Wow. We actually took showers in the Hobart dishwasher. Come on. Yeah.

Wow. We were young. That's awesome. It's awesome. It was an adventure. And we took $200 a month out of the business. So we were probably getting, you know, we're working 70, 80 hours a week. So we're making far less than a dollar an hour.

And, and. But we didn't, you know, it was fun. We were loving it. Yeah, it was an adventure. Exactly. And I remember when I, when we got, when we got, when we got, we got, we got, we We moved safer way to Whole Foods and the new store was successful. We started getting paid $800 each a month.

They're like, wow. And I was thinking, oh my God, I'm so rich. I'm rich. And I was getting by on a little moped. I said, I'm going to buy a car now. I want to buy a car. I bought this used RX7. And I felt so wealthy making $800 a month.

But then what happened is the business continued to grow. And I suppose I didn't really feel super. I felt wealthy when in 1992, 14 years after he started the business, Whole Foods did an IPO. We went public. And I, you know, I didn't have that many shares because I didn't have any money when we got started. But I had a little bit. And I did the math on the first day of the IPO and I was now worth $7 million. Really?

I thought, oh my God, I'm a millionaire. This is unbelievable. On paper, right? So I think that was the first time I became conscious of the fact that, wow, I'm, I'm, I probably don't ever have to, I'm going to keep working because I love it, but I probably don't have to if I didn't want to. Wow. And then, you know, and then the big change for me was in 2006 when I decided, I have enough. I'll never have to worry about money ever again.

I have enough, a generational wealth. And I just stopped taking any compensation then. Really? I've never taken any, I've never taken anything since then. As CEO, you stopped. Stop taking any money at all. And my stock, were you taking stock still or no? The stock options that I would have received were donate.

to the art our foundations wow I had enough and it's been that way ever since so there's a great story and I'm going to tell you in the audience that some will have heard it but it's such a great story so the two great writers um Kirk Vonnegut and Joseph Heller were invited to this billionaire hedge fund party and they're there around there and vonnegut always being a little bit of provocateur he's kind of needling Heller, because Heller wrote Catch 22. And he says, so Joe, this guy makes more money every day than you will make for all the books you've ever sold or ever will sell. He makes it every day. What do you think about that? Heller thinks about it. And he says, you know what?

Kurt, I have one thing he'll never have. And Kurt says, what's that? He says, I have enough. Wow. Wow. Wow. Why do you think so many people feel like they don't have enough? I think that that's that the ring of power, it's the hungry ghost, it's the ego. You can never have enough of what you don't really want. I mean, you think you want this. You think wealth will lead to happiness or if you're more famous, people will love. People will love.

you, if you have more power, you can get your way. These are very seductive things when what we really want is we want more love in our lives. We want more connection. And those other things are distractions from them. You can view them as tools if you understand what they are and they're not the master. And we think by having those things, we'll feel more loved. Yes. But you know what you oftentimes have if you have a lot more money is people envy.

you. You don't have more love. In fact, you have more people hate you because you're wealthy. If you have more fame, people want to be you and that you may, they may want your autograph and whatnot, but in general, a lot of people don't like you because, you know, you have more fame than they do. You're in this competitive relationship, whether you, you may not intend it, but that's how they oftentimes see you. Interesting. So what we want is if we want that more love, we want more connection with people, those things can be tools or they can be addictions. Most people get addicted. They can't get enough fame. They can't have enough money. They can't have enough power. You see it happen all the time. It's one of the things that you see in all the movies and

television shows is a billionaire that's trying to get another billion. I've seen, I've taught, I'm not going to name anybody. I've, I've known plenty of billionaires and I've, and I'm not, they're even close to one. And these guys, uh, they compare them. to each other, it's that Forbes list. And they might be worth five or six billion dollars in there, but they're not, they're comparing themselves to people that have, you know, 20 or 30 or 100 billion. But like, I got to get there. Yes, exactly. And they're not satisfied. They're not happy. They don't have enough. And I've, and think about how you have all these famous actors and celebrities. And they're constantly trying to get more celebrity, more fame. They date each other, not just fake,

Fake relationships. To get more fame. Yes, exactly. And it doesn't satisfy the soul. And what ends up happening like if you have so much money, you have to now have to have security guards because your kids might get kidnapped. Or you might, you know, you're not even free any longer. Now you have to have some bodyguards around you all the time.

Or if you get super famous, same thing. People are always asking you for autographs, asking you to sign this or do this. And you start to lose your freedom. And power is not any different. So those things past a certain point don't enrich our lives, but they trap us. And so I'm not better or more important than anyone else. I'm just on this different path. I'm waking up.

My job is not to become more famous or rich or more powerful. My job is to extend more love in the world and help other people to connect to their hearts and they extend more love. That's the game I'm playing now. And that's what my new business, love life's about, I might add, is to help people be the healthiest, kindest, most loving versions of themselves. If someone's watching and listening right now and they're saying, you know what, I really want to generate more financial freedom from my life. And if you could give them one piece of advice on creating financial freedom from your perspective, what would that be? Create more value for other people. And people don't understand that.

Money is, you get money by creating value for others, and then they trade with you. And so one of the challenges in business, I'm always putting to my team, it's like asking this question again and again and again and again, how do we create more value? What are we not giving our members or our customers that would enrich their lives and make them happier, make them more fulfilled? And so as long as you're thinking about and you're constantly improving your offering to create more value, then you're going to become wealthier. Those go together. And people separate those out and then they forget. Young people ask me this kind of question all the time.

And I said, well, how are you going to create more value for other people? Because that's where the money comes from. It's not about doing the bare minimum and doing the least amount. It's how can I add the most value to someone. And that never ends. Even when you're creating value, you're still asking the question, not going to create even more value. As long as you're focused,

and think about that, you're making other people's lives better and you're becoming wealthy doing it. That is a win, win, win game. Yes. You will create wealth by giving to others. That's what it's really about. You create value for others

and then they trade with you. If you're not willing to do that, well, then you're never going to have very much money. Some people hold themselves back because they have guilt about money. Have you ever felt that? Guilty about earning money? No.

Well, when you see people that have a lot less or struggle or friends, family, or society members? To be completely honest, this is something I struggled about when I was younger. And until I really saw that the wealth that I was creating was something because I was creating value for other people and I didn't have to feel guilty about it anymore. It was, it was.

So you did feel guilty in the beginning a little bit. Well, yeah, I took on the values the culture has that if you have wealth, that maybe you stole it. Maybe you took too big a piece of somebody else's pie. And I had to get my own thinking squirt around that I wasn't stealing from anybody else. I wasn't a crook. I wasn't greedy. I wasn't stealing. I was creating value for people and they were exchanging with me. And so they were getting, they were getting better and I was getting better. And that's how the whole society advances. That's how progress is. Yeah. Wow. Now, the tricky thing there sometimes is,

It's sometimes we create, we give people what they want, but it's not good for them. That brings us into a whole other ethical plane, right? Give an example. Like if you make money and you build financial wealth, giving people what they want, but it's not good for them. What happens to you? Good question. I'm not sure I have the answer for that one. I have to think about it. But it, well, I would say it stains you a little bit. particularly social or maybe a little bit.

So, I mean, there's good examples. I mean, tobacco is the best example. People want tobacco. It apparently makes them feel good. But it destroys their health. And so if you're in that business, you're giving people what they want. They're trading with you voluntarily. But you're destroying their long-term health.

So that would be a business I would not want to be in. Yeah. But then you could say the same thing concur with junk food, for example. Of course, or alcohol or, you know, whatever. Yes. People are any kind of drug that is addicting, and people do want it, and they trade with you. By the way, there are ways, there are healthier pizzas up there. Sure, sure, yeah, yeah.

So that's the tricky thing. I think it's a fair question. You have to ask ethically, you know, my very first store, for example, was a vegetarian store, and it didn't sell coffee, and it didn't sell alcohol. And didn't sell sugar. And didn't sell meat. No cheese. No cheese?

Well, we did sell cheese. We were lacto-oval vegetarian. But we did almost no business because the market wasn't big enough. And when Whole Foods, when we moved from safer way to Whole Foods, merge with another company, another small business like ours, and started to sell meat, started to sell seafood, started to sell alcohol, coffee, and some sugar. the business took off. Wow. And so it was like, the tricky thing is that... Man, this is challenging.

You have to meet the market kind of where you find it. But then Whole Foods was always trying to urge people to... To help your option. You know, you know within yourself when it's appropriate, when it's not appropriate. And you have to come to terms with your own values and where you'll make exceptions. Yes.

And if those exceptions are justified. It's hard to be completely. completely pure in this one. And make money. Well, that's tried. To a certain extent, that's true. So, but you can, you know. There'll be a priest, right?

That's right. So this is a, this is some of, I wrestle with these questions all the time with, you know, I had the safer way than Whole Foods and, and, uh, it's, I have another saying that you should remember this one because it's a cliche, but it's very true. The perfect is the enemy of the good. Perfect is the enemy of good. Yes. You have to sometimes ask, is there more net good that comes from this? Because if you're perfect, but nobody does business with you, then you haven't done any good either. Yeah. And you have thousands of employees that you're helping their livelihoods and you wouldn't be able to serve and give jobs and opportunities in a happy place if you weren't able to sell these things.

One of the reasons business is judged all the time is because business is more pragmatic. It does, it makes compromises to, serve customers. Remember, we're trying to create value for customers and they're trading with us and exchanging. And they want things from us that may not be good for them. So I'm trying not to force my values on everyone else. If someone want, you know, I actually gave up alcohol two and a half years ago because of my Apple Watch. I was my, because I have an app called AutoSleep. And I noticed, I started to, I wanted to get better sleep. So I, when I got a good night sleep, I looked at everything it went into it and the first thing I discovered was exercise. You want to sleep well? Get a lot of exercise. That's going to give you deep sleep, longer sleep. The next thing I realized is that

if I eat too late, it interferes with my sleep. If I eat too much and eat too late, so for me, for me, I need to eat earlier and not as much at dinner. Lighter, lighter dinners. But the third thing was alcohol. Any time I had even one drink of alcohol, my deep sleep went to zero. I got none. And instead of getting like seven and a half hours of sleep, I got six hours of sleep. And the next day I didn't feel as good. So, and then I started, I did this experiment costly because, you know, I didn't, I kind of like drinking. It was fun to do with friends and stuff, conviviality. But the facts were clear.

If I want to sleep well, I'm not going to have any alcohol. I haven't had a drink since. Wow. And, but I reserved the right that someday I may sacrifice a good night's sleep. Sure. But so far, I'd rather have a good night's sleep than. Have a drink. What's going to impact your long-term health and your lifespan and your health span and your energy levels and your memory?

Also true. Everything. Absolutely. You're going to become more conscious. You're going to become more loving. It's probably hard to wake up with less sleep and be more forgiving and loving when you're exhausted. If you feel bad, it's harder to be loving and forgiving. You get, you're more impatient. You're more snappish.

Wow. That's interesting. So you've had to, I guess, would you say you've had to make certain compromises over the years or would they not be called compromises? I mean, these are really good questions. I'm trying to bring it for you, John. So, again, I don't think there's a right answer. There's the right answer for you, wherever you're at. And if you're going to feel terrible about something, don't do it.

It's not worth it. And so people will... It's not. People will... But people have to draw that line. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that... Because I, you know, I've been a vegan for 21 years and people are always apologizing.

And, you know, sorry I mean to eat at this dinner. I always say that, listen, I don't, you eat whatever you feels appropriate for you. I'm not going to judge you because you eat differently than I do. And that, you know, so our judgments are the problem. And if you're going to judge yourself. I said that about alcohol with people, too. I'll be out with people who are drinking and it's like, I'm not going to judge you, but I'm not going to be out all night while people are drinking.

Also, I'll leave eventually. I'll tell you a funny story on the alcohol because my wife, she doesn't drink. She's never drank anything. alcohol in her life. And I used to ask her, I said, Deborah, how come you don't, you don't ever want to hang out with my friends? You know, and she said, well, John, it's because your friends all drink. And, you know, you guys think you're getting funnier, but actually, you're getting stupider. It's boring. Yes. It is. After a period of time, it becomes boring. And she says, you don't notice it because you're right along with them. But when I stopped drinking,

I started hanging out with them. I had to come home one night. And I said, you know, you're right. It's true. All my friends, they think they're funny and clever, but they're stupid. And when they're drinking. Yeah, after two drinks, the person I'm talking with usually doesn't become funnier. No. It becomes more exhausting and like, okay, they're like, it's just too much. So it's like, if you've got to have dinner and someone's having a couple glasses I want, cool.

But at that point, all right, let's leave. Let's go home. I've gotten to your place. It took me a long time. In fact, I wish I'd stop drinking many, many years ago. It was part of my family all drank. I think it was in culture, culture. Yeah.

So I, in the book, I get into some detail about my wife. And from the very first day I met her on a blind date, I had a little voice tell me that she was more conscious than me. And my ego freaked out about that. I said, no way, I'm older. I've had more experience in this way. And then as the first date were on, it became increasingly clear. I'd never been with anybody that was this conscious before, this loving. Well, she didn't drink, so that was a towel right there.

That's right. I didn't drink that night either. And so when it up, you know, we got together and although I can tell you, the story in the book is very much worth reading. I call it the woman in the dream because I had had repeated dream about her. And I, you know, the thing that she has taught me about love, she has a saying that I practice or try to practice. And it's very powerful. She says, John, don't overcomplicate this. It's not as complicated as you think it is.

It's really simple. Just love everyone all the time. Wow. What about people that wrong you or hurt you? Don't differentiate those people. Just love them too. Just love everybody. But don't you have to create boundaries sometimes with people?

Yeah, sure you do. That doesn't mean you don't love them. I mean, people make this mistake that if you're, they think love, if you're love, you're weak, people are going to take advantage of you. You've got to be tough and hard, and somehow they're, they're not. whether love is this, is this, it's been, love is powerful, love is strong. You can, you can be very powerful and strong, fully masculine, fully powerful and loving, and nobody has to take advantage of you. You do draw your boundaries.

Like, no, I don't think that would be appropriate. I mean, people ask me for favors all the time. And I just very lovingly and kindly say, yeah, no, I don't think I can be able to do that. I'm sorry. I mean, you still stay in your heart. It's about where your consciousness is at. It's not, as my wife has said many times, he said, you know, John, you can just, you can be kind to people. You can be loving to people while being firm and saying no.

It's not a weakness to, to say, it's not a weakness to say, you're not saying no or drawing boundaries does not mean you're not being in your heart or being right. Right, yeah. You can still be loving and strong. Yes. Yeah. In fact, if you're not strong, I question how loving you really are. Thank you for tuning in. Continue strengthening your mind by listening to our other episodes.