The Resilient Mind - Unexplained Pain? This Is What Your Brain Is Trying to Tell You - Dr. David Clarke

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Watch the full video interview on the new Resilient Mind YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/emUV9HKBkD8Is your chronic pain real, but doctors can't find a physical cause? You're not alone. Dr. David Clark, president of the Association for Treatment of Neuroplastic Symptoms, reveals how the brain can generate very real physical pain and illness as a response to stress, trauma, and repressed emotions. Discover how adverse childhood experiences and personality traits like perfectionism can lead to conditions like chronic back pain, migraines, and IBS. Most importantly, learn that because the brain creates these symptoms, it can also unlearn them. There is tremendous hope for healing.Learn More: https://www.symptomatic.me/Listen To Dr. Clarke on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/35raaEZd7RLhfk2jvirq1uListen To Dr Clarke on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/dk/podcast/the-story-behind-the-symptoms-with-david-clarke-md/id1795541258Take action and strengthen your mind with The Resilient Mind Journal. Get your free digital copy today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/Download_Journal Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Resilient Mind podcast. In this episode, you will be listening to Unexplained Pain with Dr. David Clark. This episode is also available in video. Watch it on YouTube by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy. Millions of people are affected. It's 20% of the adult population. It is 40% or 2 in 5 of people who go to visit a primary care doctor.

What is neuroplastic symptoms and how do they differ from those caused by injury or disease? Neuro refers to the nervous system and the brain, and plastic is actually a very hopeful medical jargon term because it means a capacity for change. These are conditions in which pain or illness is not produced by disease or injury. When you do address these issues, people can get better. even from severe long-lasting symptoms. There's a whole other category of causes of real pain or illness in the body, and that is that the brain can generate them, literally from head to toe. Today I'm super excited to be joined by Dr. David Clark,

president of the Association for Treatment of Neuoplastic Symptoms and non-for-profit dedicated to ending chronic pain epidemic. David Clark holds an MD from the University of Connecticut School of Medicine and his board certified in internal medicine and gastroenterology. His organization's mission is to advance their awareness, diagnosis, and treatment of stress-related and brain-generated medical condition. Welcome, Dr. Clark. Great to be with you. Thank you very much. We're excited to have you here. So what is neuroplastic symptoms?

and how do they differ from those caused by injury or disease? Well, neural refers to the nervous system and the brain, and plastic is actually a very hopeful medical jargon term because it means a capacity for change. And these are conditions in which pain or illness is not produced by disease or injury. Most people assume that if you've got pain or illness, there must be a disease or injury to explain it. That's actually how I was trained.

as a physician, you've got to find the damaged structure or the diseased organ to account for a patient's illness. But it turns out there's a whole other category of causes of real pain or illness in the body, and that is that the brain can generate them, literally from head to toe. And these are, you know, I have a number of synonyms, but my colleagues and I now like to call them neuroplastic symptoms, again, because it's hopeful. It shows that with appropriate diagnosis and treatment, these conditions can change. Fascinating. And how common are these conditions? Oh, millions of people are affected. It's 20% of the adult population. It is 40% or two in five of people who go to visit a primary care doctor. So they have pain or illness. They go to see a physician

and get diagnostic tests. They can't find anything wrong on the diagnostic test, which is actually the title of my first book on this subject. They can't find anything wrong. And then they don't know what to do. And they're not trained in how to uncover the stress, the trauma, other challenges in life, sometimes repressed emotions are involved. Many things that impact a person's resilience, for example, that are responsible for this. But very few healthcare professionals of any type have been trained how to uncover and address these issues. But when you do, people can get better, even from severe, long-lasting symptoms. And what is or what are the primary causes of neuroplastic pain? Well, there we're looking at stress in a person's life, and it can be almost anything bad

that can happen to a human being. And sometimes it's very simple. If you know the kinds of questions to ask, getting an exact chronology of the illness in many cases will tell you that there are stresses connected to it. One very simple example was a patient of mind that he only got his pain when he was driving to work. When he was driving home from work, he was fine. Same on the weekends. You see, you've already diagnosed him, somebody. You already know what's wrong with him, that it was a problem in his workplace. And that's what proved to be the case. And for him, just seeing that this connection existed was a huge relief for him.

And he was then able to go to his supervisor and negotiate some changes in his workplace and bring the stress level down. And he felt much better after that. Other causes can be undiagnosed depression and anxiety disorder. post-traumatic stress, somebody who's been through a trauma, some kind of terrifying or horrifying event. A colleague of mine in Arizona told me a story about a patient who, a woman who'd been going from doctor to doctor for months and months trying to find an explanation for her symptoms. He was the one who found out that right before she became ill, she had been a hostage during the

robbery of a store. And for 40 minutes, she had a handgun pointed at her neck. by one of the robbers. And nobody else had uncovered this story. She didn't think to mention it to anybody, but it was very clearly related to her symptoms. But the biggest category that I haven't mentioned yet is adverse childhood experiences. People who went through some kind of adversity

might be an obvious, very bad one. My very first patient with this condition was sexually abused, for example, as a girl, but it can also be much more subtle. Another one of my patients, he only got praise from his parents when he did something better than his brothers and sisters could do it. And as a result, you know, since his brothers and sisters were very accomplished people, and he didn't, as a result of that, get much praise from his parents, he ended up growing up feeling like a failure. And that played out. well into his adult years and he was having physical symptoms at the age of 37. So that's a huge

category. A majority of my patients had experiences that they would never want for a child of their own that would make them sad or angry if they saw it happening to a child that they cared about. So that is a huge category but also can be successfully treated. Yeah, and I'm really excited to hear about the treatment options. As you're talking about early childhood experiences, one of the questions that popped into my mind was, how about if a person does not remember that childhood experience and it's a repressed memory, could it still cause your plastic pain? Yes, it is possible, but I have to say that the majority of my patients are able to remember enough of what they went through that I can draw some pretty firm conclusions about the impact. And, you know, we obviously,

we can't change what happened to a person when they were a child, but we can intervene successfully and address the long-term changes and impacts that people have had. And those fall into three categories, stressful personality traits like perfectionism or extreme self-criticism. It also can cause triggers in which a person has a person or an event or a situation in their life that is highly stressful for them because it's linked to the past. And then finally, a third very important outcome from childhood adversity are emotions, negative emotions that people don't realize that they have. These can be anger, fear, shame, grief, guilt that can be very powerful and yet not consciously recognized. So those are all areas that are able to be successfully addressed through treatment.

And I know one of the most commonly known, like also, books around the effects on stress on the body, is when the body says no by Dr. Gabberma. And so from my understanding from what you're saying is that, again, these childhood experiences or even experiences that are in adulthood, if they're not treated, if they're not processed well, can express themselves within their body, in this case, through pain. Yes, through pain and also through symptoms that are not pain, literally from head to toe. And there are, you know, well over a hundred of these, but some of the more common ones are migraines, ringing in the ears, dizziness, visual disturbances, facial pain, stiffness in the temporal mandibular

joints is another one, difficulty swallowing, pain in the spine, chest pain, abdominal, pelvic, genital, joint, all chronic pain sources that are very common in people with this. Irritable bowel syndrome, fibromyalgia, long COVID. chronic fatigue, functional neurologic disorders, certain kinds of rashes. The only common denominator in people with neuroplastic symptoms is that they tend to have more than one symptom at a time. They don't always, but the more symptoms they have, the more widespread they are in the body, the more different they are in their quality and nature. And if they have a tendency to move from place to place or to vary a lot from day to day, those are all strong clues that we're dealing

with a neuroplastic symptom. And so before we get into like some of the methodologies to treat it, how can people differentiate whether the pain they are feeling is due to an illness or a disease or it's neuroplastic? Yeah, great question. It's so important to first obviously visit your physician and get checked out with whatever diagnostic tests are appropriate to make sure there's not an organ disease or structural damage going on. But when you go into a primary care doctor's office, a GP's office, with a symptom, you have right off the bat walking through the door a 40% chance that it has a neuroplastic cause. Then when the doctor does the diagnostic tests and does not find an organ disease or structural damage to explain it, the probability of it being

neuroplastic goes much higher, probably 90%. If the symptoms have characteristics that are common in neuroplastic symptoms, such as moving around, or there being a lot of them, or they're not being consistent from day to day or consistent in what triggers them, the probability goes even higher. And then if you've got a lot of stresses in your life, both past and present, that makes it still more likely that a neuroplastic process is going on. And then finally, if we are able to address the stresses in your life, past or present, and we see that your symptoms are getting better, then we have even more evidence that we are on the right track. Another way that people can approach this if they're concerned about their own symptoms. On the website, symptomatic.me,

there's a 12-question quiz that takes less than three minutes. And the more questions to which you answer yes, the more likely it is that your symptoms are neuroplastic. Perfect. And that's really good to know that there's a tool that you've made available to the listeners so they can actually start seeing and taking the steps to determine the cause of their pain. Have you noticed any thought processes or emotional patterns that a person might have that increase the likelihood of someone suffering from neuroplastic pain? Yes, there are many personality traits that are very common in people with neuroplastic symptoms, and typically they have their origin in adversity during childhood.

These are personality traits that developed in reaction to the child. childhood adversity as a way for the child to cope. And many children who are in an environment that they're struggling with, they don't have that many options for how to deal with that. So many of them will try to be the best little kids they can be. They will try to be perfect. And if they fall short of being perfect, they will be very critical of themselves. And they will be very focused on the needs of other people in that environment, trying to solve those problems in the family or provide support for people that are struggling in the family. And so as adults, they're very often the same way.

They are perfectionists sometimes. They're very self-critical sometimes. They put a lot of pressure on themselves to take care of everybody else in their world. But they struggle to put themselves on the list of people they take care of. They struggle to take time for their own joy. You ask them, you know, what do you do for fun? and they're not typically coming up with very much that they do, and they're living as if on a treadmill that they never step off. And sooner or later, the body is going to protest. You also

mentioned emotions. That's very important as well. Many of my patients, for example, have tremendous amounts of anger about how they were treated as children, but they learned very well as kids how to take that anger and suppress it. So even as adults, they may have a lot of anger over something and just not be consciously aware of it. I often think of them as being like dormant volcanoes on the outside with, you know, boiling liquid magma on the inside. And that, you know, having that in your life, it absolutely affects your resilience until you find it and begin to understand it. And as you're speaking, that I can even

relate in my own life experience in terms of some of the cultural expectations that we have in terms of like, okay, when you're a child, you're expected to act in these specific ways. You're expected to take care of the people around you, and it's almost like there's no other option. And I think

in some ways we think that it's something that is only positive, but we don't like, we might not realize that they might also be, you know, might also negatively impact us. And you might not be aware of how it's impacted in us until we have, again, those pain responses within our body. Yeah, I think of these symptoms as a form of communication, that the mind is trying to tell

us something, and it isn't able to penetrate to our conscious awareness. And so it communicates with us in the only other way that it can by creating symptoms in the body as a way of waving a flag and saying, you know, please pay attention to this. And of course, you know, as human beings, if we've got a symptom in our body, we're not thinking about what the mind is trying to tell us. We're thinking about the body. What in the world is going on in there? What disease do I have? What structural damage do I have? Why can't the doctor find what's going on? And it's only when we help people shift their attention, take it from the body up to the mind and start thinking about, you know, what might be going on. You know, for example, did you learn as a child that it's your job to take care of everybody else and you're still doing that as an adult?

And you never get any time for yourself. That is a very common reason for physical symptoms. but people only realize it when they know that it's a possibility. And for those listening, and I'm also thinking for myself, how can we start shifting those patterns of becoming aware of that? So we can start taking some steps to address these symptoms that our body's telling us that there's something going on? Well, as soon as you begin to look into the possibility

that your symptoms could be neuroplastic, and you start thinking about the stresses, you can start noticing when are your symptoms flaring up, when are your symptoms worse, and what is going on in your life at those times when the symptoms are flaring up? Can you make a connection between the ups and downs of your symptoms and the ups and downs of any particular stress in your life? Because if you can find that kind of chronological link, that's going to tell you a lot about what the causes are. Another area that I try to get my patients to understand is, you know, what did they learn about themselves as children that isn't true?

Did they learn that, for example, were they made to feel like they weren't measuring up or they were second-rate human beings or that they were worthless? And where did those ideas come from? how were they made to feel this way about themselves? And can they recognize that it absolutely isn't true? And that in fact, for most people, the opposite is the truth, that if you came through a lot of adversity as a child, you should think of yourself as someone who perhaps parachuted into a jungle as a toddler and had to find their way out.

through no fault of their own, they were in a difficult or toxic situation. And they had to, through their own heroic perseverance, make their way out of that jungle. And they should take pride in having done that. And if they can take that pride, they are beginning to build a foundation for self-esteem. They can stop being so perfectionist. They can reduce their level of self-criticism. they can feel more worthy of taking time for their own joy. A lot of dominoes start to fall in a positive direction,

and your resilience is going to be much better if you can recognize these things about yourself. I love that perspective shift. Even now I'm starting to smile. Parachuting into the jungle as a toddler, and then being able to make it through, makes you feel very, like you can get through a lot of things. if you can go through that. And so what are some of the most effective tools or techniques

that you use to overcome or to treat neuroplastic pain? Yeah, I think first of all, just recognizing, you know, where this is coming from and beginning to shift your attention to the issues in your life. That's a very valuable first step. Another one that's extremely important for a lot of my patients is to set aside regular time for their own joy. Too many of my patients just don't do that nearly enough. And it turns out to be an essential human skill, to be able to regularly put aside time that you just tell the rest of the world to go away and you start doing trial and error to find things that you absolutely love to do. What we're looking for here is the equivalent of a four-year-old child playing with finger paints, you know, where they

get various colors and they've got it on their hands and they're smearing it all over the piece of paper. And when they're doing that, they're not worried about how many pictures per hour they're producing. They don't care about the quality of the work. They don't care who sees it. They just know they're having fun. And as soon as it stops being fun, they put it away and they go and do something else. As human beings, every one of us needs that. It is an essential human skill to be able to do that on a regular basis. And if you don't, sooner or later, your body is going to complain.

Myself, I played on up to three soccer teams at a time for over 20 years. That was my personal stress reduction. After being kind and compassionate to my patients all week, it was great to go out there and kick something. I never thought soccer could be used as a nice stress reliever, but it does make sense. Yeah, my teammates and I, we just had so much fun. And for the people that are listening and don't feel like they have enough time, maybe they are working too much or they've got people to take care of and they don't think that they can set aside that our time to do what they enjoy, what recommendations or advice

would you have for them? Yeah, even just a little bit. And I have to acknowledge that, you know, there are many people who have so many obligations, you know, through no fault of their own, they just have them, that it's very, very challenging to put aside the time for themselves. And, you know, I love it if a person can put aside an afternoon a week, but it's not realistic for everybody. But if you can even set aside a little bit, you know, one hour even, where just everything else goes away. And ideally, you'd get a little bit of help with your other responsibilities so that you can take this hour for yourself and then do some experimenting with what's going to be the most joyful for you during that hour. Because, you know, you can't be your best

at fulfilling all your other obligations if you're physically ill. And if this one hour of joy a week is enough to bring some of those physical symptoms down and increase your resilience, it's going to be well worth it to everybody else. I always think of the analogy that you're like a car you can drive as often as you want, but if you don't stop to put some gas, eventually you're going to run out of gas. That is a very good analogy, yes. And what's going on in the body is kind of like the little light on your dashboard that says there's a problem in the engine. And if you are focused on the light on your dashboard and trying to fix that light, it's like trying to fix the symptom in your body. You are neglecting the engine of where this is really coming from, which is, the mind that is generating this. It's the mind that means the attention, not the indicator light that might be your back pain, for example. The mind is very powerful. And I know you have

worked with countless patients suffering from chronic pain. Can you share a success story of someone who transformed their life by addressing the neuropastic causes of their pain? Yes, I can share 7,000 success stories and we will still be here tomorrow morning. But in my book, they can't find anything wrong. The very first story, I chose this because it was so dramatic for this woman. She was admitted to the hospital overnight because of an attack of severe dizziness and vomiting. And I was asked to see her and she said something to me. I have never heard from any other patient. Thank you for coming, doctor, but don't waste your time with me. Go and see you be better off going to see your other patients. And I said, why would you say that? I'm here to help you. And she said, it's not necessary. I have had these attacks for 15 years.

And about half of them are so bad that I have to be in the hospital for them. And she lived in a town where there was a famous. University with an excellent hospital, she had been hospitalized there 60 times in 15 years. She had seen all of their specialists and a psychiatrist, and nobody knew what was wrong with her. And it turned out that less than an hour later, not only did we know what was wrong, we had cured her. And what was wrong was that she had an abusive mother, verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, not physically or sexually abusive. And this mother had been doing this to her since she was three or four years old and was still doing it.

The patient is now 50 years old. Mother is in her 70s and the mother is still mistreating her in the same way. And I was able to show her that her attacks of illness, the dizziness and the vomiting, were all connected to her interactions with her mother, sometimes direct, sometimes indirect, but always connected. And as soon as she saw that, I can still remember she looked up at the ceiling and said, oh my God, I can't believe it. and just helping her to see this connection, bringing that into conscious awareness, in her case was enough to cure her on the spot. When I went to see her the next day, she had already been sent home from the hospital because she had no further problems.

And she called me a year later when she was back in town to say she'd gone the entire year with no further attacks. Amazing. And is this like an example of the picture? pain relief psychology you talk about? Yes. Yes. Pain relief psychology or sometimes neuroplastic psychology is all about uncovering the stress

that is responsible for the patient's illness and help them to understand it and overcome it. And when they do this, very real symptoms that can be every bit as severe as those caused by organ disease or structural damage can be relieved. Usually not in an hour like that one patient. I wish I could cure everybody like that. But some people need years of psychotherapy to achieve the same outcome. So there is a range of how quickly people get better. But one of my patients, he had 55 years of abdominal pain that was completely relieved in about a month.

So, you know, these techniques are very powerful. And there's very good research now, controlled clinical trials that show the same thing. The Boulder back pain study, for example, done in Boulder, Colorado, they had 50 patients with back pain in their lumbar spine, averaging 10 years of pain. And they got just four weeks of neuroplastic psychics. and their pain improved by 75% this after 10 years. And then they followed them up for another 11 months and their pain didn't come back. They stayed 75% improved.

Just a remarkable outcome. Even the researchers were shocked. And those kinds of results are now being confirmed at research centers across North America. Halifax, Harvard, Detroit, UCLA, they're all finding the same thing when this new form of psychology is used. And do we know what's happening in the brain? Like when they go through this treatment, like what changes happen in the brain in the body to cause that pain to either disappear or to be reduced significantly?

Yes, you're absolutely right. These symptoms are not, quote, unquote, in people's head. They are real. They have a real physical underpinning to them. We know, for example, that if you injure your back, if you have a structural injury, there's a certain part of the brain that becomes active in response to that, what we call acute pain. But if the pain persists, as it does in a fraction of people who injure their back, if it becomes chronic, meaning that it goes on for longer than two or three months, then the part of the brain that it is, is active is completely different. And it's in an area of the brain that has to do with emotions and with the making of meaning and with language, a completely different part of the brain. And there are a number of studies now using magnetic resonance imaging of the brain that show that people with these neuroplastic symptoms have physical changes in the circuits in their brain. The Boulder Back Pain study, they also did MRI scans.

of the brain, and they found that there were anatomic changes from before they got the neuroplastic psychology to after they got the neuroplastic psychology. The talk therapy alone was actually physically changing the brain neuroanatomy. Fascinating. That is really amazing. And I think for a lot of people encouraging, knowing that there is treatment out there that can help them regain their health and reduce the pain that they are feeling. Yeah, we have a bibliography on Symptomatic.me with over 200 references that people can check this out. Each one of the references has a paragraph or so of explanation to show what the study found. And we are going to be adding all those links as well to the show notes. So if you are thinking and you're listening

and you want to visit Dr. Clark's website, you'll have access to that in the show notes as well. One of the questions that I always think about is for some of our parents that are listening with children and they don't want to just build their own mental resilience, but they want to parent in a way that will help their children also grow up to be resilient individuals. What advice can you give those parents so that they're able to raise their children so that they can minimize their chances of suffering from neuroplastic pain? Yeah, this was something. I've always been grateful to my patience for is that by listening to their stories of how they

were raised, it actually changed how I raised my own two boys. And one of the things that I found, especially when children become adolescents, is that when they are going outside of the home, they are often confronted in various ways with their own shortcomings. And all of us have shortcomings, especially when we're teenagers. But when they go out of the home, they are hearing about this from their peers in their class, from their teachers, from administrators, from their coaches. If they're involved in the arts, it's going to be from those instructors. They are constantly going to be confronted with ways in which they are not measuring up in some way. If they then come home and they are further confronted with ways in which they are not measuring up, then they get no

relief from it. You know, it's the whole world that is telling them things about themselves that are not positive, and that affects a person's long-term resilience. So my wife and I tried to have our home be more of an oasis of support. And I'm speaking of this primarily when my boy. were adolescents, to try to be a place where we would notice if they did something well and let them know that we had noticed. We wouldn't be jumping up and down and saying, exaggerating what we thought about it, but we would want to be letting them know that we were aware that they had done something

well. And when they did something not so well, mostly they already knew that they had not done it well, and they didn't need us to be piling onto them and telling them that they had done this, that, or the other in a poor way. But this was difficult for both my wife and myself, because, you know, we're both, you know, detail-oriented people. And you definitely want your doctor to be a detail-oriented person. But when it comes to children, you know, constantly noticing every time they might be doing something better, nobody's going to like that for very long. If I came into your home and I followed you around, Simba, and I pointed out every time you fell short, it would not be very long before you kicked me out your front door. And, you know, children are pretty much the same way.

So, you know, if it was a big transgression, I would definitely have to let them know that I had noticed that. I had noticed that too. But mostly I tried to let those things slide and have our home be a place where they were always going to get support. One example of this is my younger son, the state of his room. He had his own bedroom and it was a disaster. You know, you could barely open his door because of all the junk that was on the floor behind the door. And if you did open the door wide enough to be able to stick your head in, you would not be able to see the carpet on his floor because it was covered with junk. And a lot of parents wouldn't put up with that.

But, you know, I just decided this is his personal space. If he wants to live as a pig would, then I'm going to not say, anything. I'm just going to let him live that way because the rest of his life, he was doing quite well. And so I just held my tongue. But it, you know, we all as parents, we want our kids to do better. We want to encourage them to do better. We want every time we notice that they're not doing something as well as we think they should. There's a strong impulse for us to point that out because we want our kids to be the best that they can be. But every time we do that, it is inevitably accompanied by a message that you have fallen short. And that's going to impact a person's resilience if it's done too much. One last point I want to make about this is that the more positive you are towards your kids and the more resilience you give them as a result, it's going to give them strength when they have opportunities. to do things that are dangerous, stupid, illegal, or all three. Because teenagers, when they're

outside of our view, they're going to have those opportunities. And what's going to make them say no? They have to be strong in themselves. And they have to feel like, you know, this would really disappoint my mom and dad if I did this. And my mom and dad are very positive in support. supportive to me all the time, and I care about them as a result of that, I'm going to say no to this opportunity. Amazing. For those people that want to learn more about your work, your organization, where can they find you, where can they find resources so that they can learn more about this topic? Yeah, it's a good time to be asking because we've just completed a major revision of our website, symptomatic.me and we are on social media at hashtag symptomatic.me as well. So it's very easy to

remember, much easier than the multiple syllables of our corporate name. So that's why we went with symptomatic.mee. And we've got lots and lots of resources. We have courses. We have books. We have a new podcast. It's called The Story Behind the Symptoms where I interview. people who have suffered from this condition and get very deep into the psychosocial realities that brought those symptoms into their bodies. We have an annual conference, which is recorded, and people can watch the presentations from previous years, but September 28th to the 30th of 2025 in Boulder, Colorado is when we are having our next one. It's sold out last year, in 24 when we did it.

And the evaluation scores were off the charts. There's a number called a net recommendation score. 50 on that measure is supposed to be or is very good. 60 is world class. That conference got an 80 on that score. So if people have an interest in this and they're available at the end of September, it's going to be a remarkable event. And before we wrap up, what's one key message you'd like to live with anyone struggling with chronic pain or neuroplastic symptoms?

Yeah, we're talking here about not about pain that's from organ disease or structural abnormality. I want to be clear on that. But a majority of pain is not from those things. And a lot of pain that is from organ disease or structural damage has a strong contribution from neuroplastic symptoms. And so what all of that means is that there is tremendous hope. One of my patients was ill for 79 years, was successfully treated. Another patient I was asked to see on her 70th day in the hospital for unexplained abdominal pain.

She was getting morphine around the clock in massive doses. She was successfully treated as well. So even people who have tried everything and for whom there seems to be no hope, there is hope. Thank you, Dr. Clark. This was super amazing and I'm super excited to have had you here to share your message, to inspire our listeners to know that there is hope and understand a lot more about the neuroplastic symptoms and neuroplastic pain. Thank you so much, Simba, for sharing these ideas with your audience. You're going to be having a tremendous impact and I'm eternally grateful. Thank you for tuning in. Continue strengthening your

mind by listening to our other episodes.