The Resilient Mind - Why Fitting In Is the Opposite of Belonging - Brene Brown

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Brené Brown is an American professor, social worker, author, and podcast host. Brown is known for her work on shame, vulnerability, and leadership, and for her widely viewed 2010 TEDx talk. She has written six number-one New York Times bestselling books and hosted two podcasts on Spotify. Take action and strengthen your mind with The Resilient Mind Journal. Get your free digital copy today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/Download_JournalThis episode is brought to you in partnership with Lewis Howes for more inspiring videos: https://www.youtube.com/@lewishowes🌍 The Resilient Mind Podcast is a proud member of 1% for the Planet — building resilient minds and a resilient planet. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Resilient Mind podcast. In this episode, you will be listening to why fitting in is the opposite of belonging with Brennoe Brown. Get access to the Resilient Mind Journal by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy. The one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering.

Yeah. That's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think, think it was an eighth grade by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know. I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders, who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don't think it is what we think it is.

you know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis. Really? I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, 15 city tour, millions of fans around the world, and you still feel alone. Yeah, I can feel really lonely. Why? And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted.

Yes. Super private. And so I love that connection between me and an audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one, it's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them. But they're a hard topic sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself

above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself and sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me

believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes. We're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. We're all trying to figure it out. I don't get to copy anybody. And so it's hard.

Yeah. It's still hard. But here's a thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me. So even when I feel alone and I wonder like, who's my crew and who are my people, I belong to me for sure for the first time in my life, maybe. Yeah.

And I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in. Yeah. You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So it was the youngest. And I remember just wanted to fit in, just like you did in that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered, like I was a cool kid or whatever.

And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it was like, I didn't want to not say anything. I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong. So if I did stand up against them, then I means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear was being alone. Oh, yeah, because that's what teams and groups. deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone. The problem is there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing

a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be, what do I need to say, what do I need to wear, how do I need to act, and changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. it demands that we be who we are. Because if we fit in because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself

for other people. And that's not sustainable. Yeah, you start to lose yourself. You start to lose yourself exactly what you said. And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are. How do we find out who we are? That's the life's work, right?

That's freaking hard. Do you know who you are? Yeah, I do. Who are you? In what way? If someone just said, who are you, Bernay, what would you say? Brene Brown. Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan.

I don't know. I ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in. But I'm a complicated person. Are you? Yeah.

And so I think I know who I am. What makes you complicated? I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex. You're interesting. I hope so. Very interesting. Yeah, some days now. Very interesting.

You know, I think what makes me complex is, I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like I speak in part. I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted. I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, yes, ma'am, no ma'am. But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it.

Sure, sure. Yeah. So I think I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. Yeah. And so I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort.

Yeah. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull. Sure. And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined. Do you? I was going to say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, you're going to be this jock in college.

You're going to be like this alcoholic. You're going to be in the frats. Yeah. All my siblings said this to me. And I was like, no, I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings, $100 each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. Because I was like, I'm going to go against everything you think I'm going to be.

Yeah. I joined the school musical because they were like, you're just going to do sports. I sang. I play guitar. I salsa dance. I was like, I'm going to do everything different than what people would expect of a tall white man, right? That's awesome. I was like, I want to be different.

Yeah. And I think in that process, I was like trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what, you know, what was fun for me. Yeah. as opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think. You can lose yourself in the fitting in and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in. It's true.

Trying to go against it all here, yeah. Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, it's this thing that it's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that we're never free until we belong nowhere, we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all, which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like, why are you saying that, Dr. Angelo? You're pissing me off.

But then I realized really, and she says the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think that's the thing that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard. Yeah. I mean, that's a hard practice.

That's an everyday practice. Wow. Yeah, because I can be whoever you want me to be like that. You're like a chameleon, you said. Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like sometimes it's really funny because I always, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class.

and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too. Sure. But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person like. And it's so funny because we'll talk about sports, usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics, and he'll say,

what do you do? And I'll say, I study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, well, I'm going to play some angry birds. words, you know, and write that moment. Like, I can just, it's not that I know everything about everything. It's just... So you're saying most men don't want to chime in and learn more about that? No, that's usually, if I want to go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher.

What's you do? You're like, okay. But I think I can be anything. Yeah, you're adaptable. I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great. Because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable. Of course. But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting is to make sure you like me,

then that's when I betrayed myself. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone? High school. It's the whole journey. Yeah, it just sucked. It does suck.

And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school. And she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience. And it was so healing to watch. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president and, you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what you belong here, no matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home,

it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense? Because they feel safe coming back. No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to. And I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team.

But in my world growing up, you only did two things. you were a cheerleader or you were on the drill team, and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things. The newspaper. Oh, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, photographer of the yearbook. Yeah. But those things did not have a lot of value. Really? Not, no. Your parents didn't instill that it was something credible or worthwhile? No, it's just cool was the number one value. at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing.

You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And, you know, that just goes bad fast. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this? Oh yeah. We've talked about all of it. You have? Yeah. You've let it go. You've processed it all. Oh, yeah, because they, you know, they read my books as I write them and they're, you know, they're like, shit, this is exactly what every parent wants a child who grows up to be a she researcher. Right. But, no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents. Like, my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn't end when your kids leave.

Like, they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me, not being able to be vault. You know, we did not do vulnerability growing up. Really? No, no, no. Like, yeah. Like, our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready. You know, family trips.

You're in the car for five hours. That's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom. But the rest stop is on the other side of the highway. We're not pulling over. Like, suck it up. Hold it. Like, we were tough.

We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say, like, I got bigger scratches and that of my eyeball. You know, like, we were tough. And so, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability. We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done. Yeah. And so however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s.

You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know. Was he able to process that or no? No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball. Yeah. My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. Wow.

But she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic. So my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at her house growing up because it was the 50s. And she was divorced, you know. And so my mom became the head of the drill team and the, you know, the valedictorian. And so however hard it was for me growing up, having the, to try to outrun vulnerability. It was a million times harder on my parents.

And they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have, I think the hard part comes for people that I've interviewed my whole life where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently

as criticism of what they did, as opposed to my parents who lean in and say, Tell me more about that. I'm a funny story. We hear a funny story about my dad. It's great. So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so my husband's a pediatrician.

Okay. So like we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. Right. And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices. Like, Lewis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water. I'm going to have to take it from you. What is your choice?

So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice. Right. And so one night I was talking to Ellen, we were my dad's house in San Antonio. I was like, Ellie, you need to turn off Door of the Explorer. It's time to go to bed. She's like, mm-mm. And I said, Ellen, you have two choices.

You can get up and turn off the TV or I'm going to get it up and turn off for you. And if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, you're going to lose privileges to watch it tomorrow. And that's your choice. Oh, yeah, that's your choice. So, you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me and he's like, I'm damn. sis, what do you raise in a hostage negotiator? I was like, Dad,

and he's like, seriously, Renee, we had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. Yeah. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio, and he's watching Ellen, and he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degree in San Antonio, and he's sweating. He's like, Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up,

or I'm going to have to put it for you. And the second one's a dumb-ass choice. I was like, wow, you're so close. He's getting there. He's getting there. but my parents are amazing in that way that like they're learning and changing. So I think it's harder when parents say,

I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, no amends, take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker. And I think we see that a lot. Yeah, we do. Thank you for listening. Continue strengthening your mind by subscribing

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