The Resilient Mind - Why Loneliness Feels Different Today - Simon Sinek

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

Simon Sinek is a British-American author, speaker, and thought leader best known for his groundbreaking concept of the “Why” — the idea that people and organizations thrive when they understand the deeper purpose behind what they do. He rose to prominence with his TED Talk “How Great Leaders Inspire Action,” one of the most viewed of all time. Through his bestselling books like Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, and The Infinite Game, Sinek explores leadership, trust, and human connection in business and life. His work inspires individuals and companies worldwide to lead with empathy, purpose, and long-term vision.Take action and strengthen your mind with The Resilient Mind Journal. Get your free digital copy today: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Download Now⁠⁠This episode is brought to you in partnership with Steven Bartlett for more inspiring videos: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDiaryOfACEO🌍 The Resilient Mind Podcast is a proud member of 1% for the Planet — building resilient minds and a resilient planet. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to the Resilient Mind podcast. In this episode, you will be listening to Why Loneliness Feels Different Today with Simon Sinek. Get access to the Resilient Mind Journal by clicking the link in the show notes. Enjoy. When I say I feel lonely, and I think when people say they feel lonely, I think what it is is that, you know, we're social animals who want to feel included, but also feel like people see here and understand us. And I think my symptoms of loneliness are feeling misunderstood or like people don't get me. Or worse, I'm struggling to communicate or present myself in a way that people will get who I am. You've heard me say this.

You know, there's an entire section on the bookshop called self-help, and there's no section on the bookshop called Help Others. And what we're desperately needing more than anything is a help others industry. Like we do not teach people how to help each other. We do podcasts and write books about how you can find love and how you can build your business and how you can become a millionaire and how you can find the job that you love. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, and there's not enough about how can you help somebody else find love. How can you help somebody else, you know, find commercial success or we don't do that and we don't teach it. and those are the skills that are desperately needed for each of us to find mental fitness because we can't do it alone.

You know, when you find darkness, you, whatever, however you want to define your darkness, you know, you feel alone, you feel like nobody can help you. You feel like you have no agency. You feel like your lack of control. And the first thing that a lot of us should do is reach out to a friend and say, I'm struggling or I need help or I'm lonely or I'm depressed or I'm sad, whatever the feeling is. And that person, do your friends, do your colleagues, do your teachers, have the skills

to know how to hold space. So the first mistake people make is they try and fix. Don't try and fix. It's not a fixing thing, you know? It's like I had a bad day at the gym. Nothing to fix. You know, nothing to fix. But then do you know how to listen?

Do you know how to hold space? and I think one of the reasons more of us are struggling with mental fitness is because we ourselves lack the skills to help our friends who are struggling with mental fitness. And the more that we as a society are equipped to help each other, the more that there are other people there to help us. So, you know, if, and I have a rule with my friends, my rule is no crying alone.

My close friends all know this and we all obey it. Like I'll get a call from somebody who's a significant person in the world that people know who they are. And they'll call me and say, do you have a minute? And I'll be like, yeah, what's up? They're like, I think I need to cry. I'm like, go. What's on your mind? And they'll tell me what's on their mind and they will cry.

And that's my rule. My rule with my friends is no crying alone. Because if you're at the point of absolute frustration, exhaustion, whatever it is that you can't hold it in. I'd rather you call me or one of us and you do it with somebody. You should never cry alone. And so I'm really good when I'm in a place like this of calling somebody and telling them, because I don't want to go through this alone. And some of my friends do have the skills where they can say, how do you feel? Oh, this is how I feel.

That must be really frustrating. Yeah, it's really hard. Tell me more about that. Well, I'm sort of going through this and that. And they know how to hold space. That's all I need. I need to somebody to sit in the mud with me. Don't need them to fix me or clean me off or give me a towel.

I just need them to sit in the mud with me so I don't feel alone when I'm sitting in the mud. And I think it's our responsibility to be able to have that skills, that skill set to do it for our friends and the people we love are our colleagues. We don't teach listening. We don't teach difficult conversations.

The fact that there's so much conversation about mental health right now is not, of course, in part because we've just come through this crazy, thing called COVID and locked downs and exaggerated politics and, you know, and divisions in our countries and et cetera, et cetera. Social media, sure, you can pile that on if you want. But I think really what it is, the fact that there's such a loud conversation about mental health is a spotlight on the fact that we are, we do not know how to build deep meaningful

relationships. I think it is an indictment on our current state of affairs that not only do we not have the skills to be there for our friends, but the way we're reacting to it is by trying to seek resources to help me rather than teach me how to help my friends. I think we're going about it half-assed. I was really surprised when you gave the answer regarding when I said the symptoms that I've indicated to you that you are feeling lonely. I think even in my head, I was expecting it to sound more like an absence of other humans around you. And that's the whole distinction between being alone and being lonely. Your answer was about how you feel like you're not understood.

By who? Is this friends or is this the world? Or is it? I'm a middle-aged man who... hasn't been married. Not that I care about marriage, but I haven't even had like a 10-year relationship. And I'm realizing some of it is self-inflicted. You know, I chose a career path that made me pretty unda-datable. You know, I was on the road so much. It was difficult to have a relationship. But some of it is also managing the effects or the symptoms of ADHD, which wasn't a

thing when I was a kid, so I couldn't be diagnosed, which I'm glad for, quite frankly, because I had to learn to manage certain things myself, which became strengths as an adult. So not, not, not bitter about that. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 32. So pretty much in life, you know, like, and one of the things that I've, and I've learned how to manage it really well professionally. Like, I know how to manage my ADHD in a professional context really well. I'm only now learning some of the symptoms, how it affects personal relationships and how I show up in relationships that I didn't even realize. So my whole life, I'd be in relationships,

and women would tell me, you're so hard to read. And I was like, I'm an open book. What do you mean I'm so hard to read? I'll tell you anything you want to know. And what I've learned is people with ADHD, not all of them, but some of them do something called stonewalling,

which is an accident. It's not something conscious, where you're telling me something about your day, whatever it is, or about our relationship. And I have nothing to add. And so what in my face you see, nothing. And I've acknowledged, like, oh, this is fantastic and wonderful. This is great, but I have nothing substantive to add, so I just add nothing. And so the accidental effect is, did I say

something wrong? Did I offend him? Does he not agree? And so I know that about myself now. So I can say to somebody, if you're not getting the reaction that you need, if you need any reaction, just ask me for a reaction. How does that make you feel? Is that okay? I'm like, oh my God, that's fantastic. Right? And I'll give it to you. Or I'm really blunt and forward with questions. For example, I have a friend, she's an entrepreneur, she's a solopreneur, she offers services to people, and I think she's priced too low. And I was having this conversation with her. I said, what do you charge?

She told me the price, and I said, why do you charge that? That's how I asked the question. Why do you charge that? And she was telling me about this just a few, about a week ago. It was really funny. And in my mind, that's perfectly legitimate question. in her mind it was such an aggressive affront. Like, what do you mean?

Why do I charge that? And I'm like, you're worth more. Why do you charge that? You know? I said, well, how should I have asked that question? And I guess normal people would have said, oh my God, you're worth so much more than that. Why do you charge that?

You know? But I don't. I'm just like this. So I recognize that in a professional context, it's one thing. People can deal with questions like that, delivered like that in a meeting. But in a relationship, not so much.

And so, like, sitting in this space, I'm, like, going through all of these mistakes or things that I've done over the course of years. And I'm a little annoyed by myself, you know? Now, I know you don't want to live life in a rearview mirror, but, I mean, I can still take account. And I'm annoyed, you know? I wish I had these skills 10 years ago, you know? So I'm just sitting in a period in my life where I would just, you know, I would have liked to have had some of the experiences that I haven't had. yet. And, you know, my friends who are in fix-it mode, they're like, but think of it as an opportunity. Now you have these skills. Thank you. I know that. But allow me to mourn the past.

That's my loneliness. I'm just mourning. I'm a period of mourning. I have to say something. I can mourn loss, can't I? Like, if I lose a friend or a loved one, you know, allow me to just, like, mourn and then I'll move forwards. Like, I'm okay. I will move forwards, but allow me to mourn loss and that's all I'm doing is just allow me to mourn the loss and I'll be fine just hold space for me come and sit in the mud with me

ask me how I'm feeling ask me how I'm doing just let me vent just sit in the mud with me and you know again I think to your point I think we just live in a world where most people are ill-equipped

on how to be there for a friend who's struggling can you give I learned this term the other day which I love. I learned it from Lex Friedman. Can you give the steel man argument for your friends that are telling you to trying to offer advice in your morning process and trying to get you to be more future-orientated? The steel man argument, I mean, is can you give the argument for why

they're doing that and why it's a good thing? Emotions are good. It means you're human. Like I said, I believe in mental fitness, not mental health. You know, that it's like your body, you have to work out, you have to eat well, you have to sleep all the time. It's not something you do and then you're done. You know, we've used that analogy before you and I, which is what the infinite game is, which is it's like, it's like I want to be healthy. Okay, well, you're going to have to do it for the rest of your life.

It's not an event. And our mental health, our mental fitness is exactly the same, which is it's constant and it's ups and downs. And it's only a challenge or you need to start involving professionals if you get stuck. You know, like if you get stuck in sadness, you cannot get out of it. That's a different conversation. If you get stuck in depression and you cannot get out of it.

If you get stuck in loneliness and you cannot get out of it. And by the way, the thing that I love about human beings is we can have multiple conflicting feelings simultaneously. I am lonely and optimistic simultaneously. My optimism, you know, I pride myself on my optimism. My optimism has not diminished in the least. Optimism doesn't mean I can't sit in a dark tunnel. optimism means that I believe there's a light at the end of the tunnel even if that light is far away. I have an undying belief that the future is bright. This two will pass, right? It doesn't mean I enjoy it.

It doesn't mean I want to be here. And I can be excited and I can hang out with my friends and I can have an amazing time with my friends and then go home and still feel lonely. Like you can have simultaneous and conflicting feelings that's allowed. In fact, it's it's normal. But I cannot stress. I think that the way that I manage this differently than most, I don't usually talk about it on podcasts, but whatever. But the way I manage it, which is different than most, is I don't wait for the phone to ring. I call a friend and say, do you have a minute? Can I talk?

And if a friend is ill-equipped, if they start fixing, I'll interrupt the conversation and say, listen, I love you. This is not what I need right now. I love you, I love you. I'm going to get off the phone right now, okay? because when they go into fix-it mode, it actually makes me feel worse sometimes. The friends that are some of the best-equipped people

are folks in the military. You know, they know how to manage shit better than almost anybody I know. I've cried with more people in uniform than I've ever cried with people in suits. And the way that we talk to each other, like I have a friend who's a general. I've known him for a million years,

so it's been fun to watch his career. He's now a general. and when we say goodbye to each other, we say, I love you. And when we get on the phone with each other, if it's been a long gap, he'll say to me, hey, man, first of all, he calls me brother. Hey, brother, right? Which means something. Hey, brother, I really miss you.

And he says things that a lot of guys don't say to each other, you know? He talks to me like sometimes I talk to my female friends. It's full of emotion, it's full of honesty, and there's no machismo whatsoever. And yet he's a warrior. He's a combat veteran, you know? And he'll say, hey, man, I miss you. It's been a while. I go, yeah, I miss you too.

And then we'll get off the phone and he'll say, hey, I love you. I mean, I love you too. I talk to you soon. And though he will, I mean, he and there is a small group like him. You know, I would call him in my most, in my darkest times and I know he would call me. I have another friend and he's going through some shit and I'm honored that when I called him up and said, hey, I haven't talked to know, what you've been going through? You know, I just realized I haven't talked to him in a while.

And I went, hey, what are you going through? And he just let it all out. And I could hear the frustration. I could hear the pain. And I didn't try and fix it. I just encouraged him to keep talking. What else? Go on. Tell me more. What else? Oh, my God, that must, that's really, go on. Yeah. What else? And just sat in the mud with him. And it was an, it was an honor. I'll tell you, was an honor that he felt comfortable enough to do that because I guarantee it he like so many are really good at hiding it, faking it, suppressing it. He's a pro. In fact, I'm sure he is where he is partially because he's a pro. And, you know, if you have the skill set to hold space for someone, you will have an amazing sense of gratitude that your friends trusted you and

loved you enough that they would go there in front of you. And I think that's a standard that we should strive for. Like I said, we're also preoccupied with ourselves. You know? There's no greater honor. There's no great honor than being able to serve a friend in need. When I see, you know, a friend sees you sat in the mud, a friend sees me sat in the mud. Their ill-informed love reaction is to try and get me out the mud, right?

Of course. Well-intentioned. I don't knock it. well-intention. How do I get out the mud? The reason I ask that question is because I know there's someone listening to this right now who is sat in the mud. In many respects in my life, I'm sat in the mud. The thing we're all looking for is we want empathy in the fact that we're sat in the mud, of course, but we're desperate for a way out of the mud, right? That's understandable. Where does the plan come from? How do we get out of the mud? So I, if it were

prescription, you and I wouldn't have to work anymore. On the subject matter of loneliness, because it's easier to focus on. Right. So I think in large part, like any cooperative effort, like any relationship, and a friendship is a relationship, right? Having colleagues is a relationship. In some part, it's, it's co-created, right? You know, you want to show up in any kind of relationship, professional or personal, and make it a co-creation. And, you know, I think when somebody first calls you, I don't think they're looking for solutions. They're looking for companionship and catharsis. They're just looking not to feel, like, overwhelmed. And at some point,

you can either ask, can I offer some pointers or you're not ready for that? yet. No, I'm not ready for that yet. Versus, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Or the person will ask themselves, you know, what do you think? What do you think? How do I, like, what do I do I do? Like, what do I don't want to do it? Like, I know what to do. I just need to do this. And the person can just say, I'll do it with you and just offer, again, companionship. Most of us, believe it or not, have more knowledge about how to get out of it than we think because we've dispensed the advice in the past probably

you know I think most of us have a sense like it's again I think part of part of it is allowing ourselves to feel the feels you know I think if I suppress the feelings they would last longer but allowing myself to feel the feels I know as part of the solution you know it's

like if you try and suppress feelings it makes, it just, it's not good. Yeah. You know what I mean? They're signals, they're signals. They're just, that's all they are. And maybe they're telling you other things. Like maybe all of my loneliness is telling me is like, Simon, you idiot, just get some sleep.

Maybe that's all it's telling me. Maybe I'm feeling lonely is because I'm just freaking exhausted. Turns out I've been sleeping better and turns out I feel better. You know, maybe I've been eating crap. You know, maybe I'm full of friggin' sugar and fat. The social expectations play a role. I am this age and I should be this by now. Oh, I think we have to say yes, right?

And like, the midlife crisis is a known thing. And you sort of expect, you know, you hit middle life and you're like, all right, you're going to start evaluating everything. You know, you're receding hairline, your sagging body. You know, you're, you know, a new comedian's joke about it. We joke about it. But I think the new thing is the quarter-life crisis. You know, the number of friends that I have that are in their mid-20s

or like barely pushing 30, and they are suffering all the things that somebody in their mid-life would suffer, and their evaluation is different. It's not like, oh, my God, I'm closer to the day I'm going to die than the day I was born. It's not that. It's more like, oh, my God, I'm at this age, and I haven't achieved all the things I said I was going to achieve,

or I'm just getting started or I'm... And I think now the quarter life crisis is like a real thing. And unfortunately older generations scuff at it. You know?

But I think it's based... That is very much societal expectation. Like, I'm supposed to be here. Like, the number of young people I know who I say, you're entry level. Don't worry if you're running the place yet. Just even if this is a bad job,

if it's toxic, get out. But there's very few jobs that are super toxic, you know? If you just have a bad boss, like stick with this and learn. Like, the learning you're going to get from a bad, like my first boss was a bad boss. And I was there for a year and a half,

and it was one of the best educations I got. And by the way, the camaraderie that I built my team because we all shared the same bad boss, it was amazing, right? So I learned teamwork. I learned having each other's back. I learned people taking care of each other. We learned how to manage

and how not to do things. I didn't just abandon it because my boss was bad. My point is, is when I say stuff like that, to young people, they immediately interpret that as the worst advice ever because I'm wasting time. Or take a gap here, I can't, I'm wasting time. Like, wasting time from what? Like, what race are you?

Who are you comparing yourself to? What standard? Like, you know, I won't achieve the thing by, by what? Like, what imaginary scale are we working on here? You know? But there is this very clear imaginary scale by which younger, people, young people are pegging their life against.

And the only thing I can offer is my own experience. And I know it's the worst thing to do because when you're in it, you're in it. Nobody can think that far ahead. And it's fun to think about, right? Because I remember when I was young in my career and things were just starting

to move, there was one guy I used to go to for advice who was very much more successful than me, really buttoned up, really sort of, you know, operations oriented. And he would constantly give me advice that either he was basically either telling me I was an idiot or made me feel like an idiot by all the things I wasn't doing or wasn't doing right or should be doing or could be doing. But it never felt right to me. And he would say stupid things to me.

Like, I won't get out of bed for X amount of thousands of dollars. I'm like, I do stuff for free all the time. You know? And if I didn't have my sense of purpose and cause, if I didn't have my North Star, my why, my vision to guide me, I would have listened to him. And it would have been to my detriment. Because he was very finite-minded and it was very sort of like, hit this target, hit this target. And thank goodness I ignored all the advice.

And flash forward, my career has completely eclipsed his. It just took longer. And that's the point is, the point is, is that the reason people are, don't follow my ideas. The people, the reason people reject my books is because they want my advice or they want my perspective

to work this year. And I, and you've heard, I've used this analogy all the time. Like, I will tell you how to get into shape. I will tell, you have to exercise 20 minutes a day, every day. You have to eat healthy and you can have, you can only have sugar in days that start with S.

You know? I like what Mark Hyman says, which is, you know, treat sugar like a recreational drug, you know? And if you do these things, 100%, you will be in shape and you will be healthy. 100%. Nobody wants that book. Right? But the problem is you have to do it. And somebody will say, well, when will I be in shape? And the answer is, I don't know. A hundred percent it works. I don't know when. And when I discovered the why, and I first articulated the why, and this is also important, it wasn't just the why, I also discovered Emmett Rogers' work

on the Law of Diffusion of Innovations which I did write about also in Start with Y. That combination of starting with Y and following the law of diffusion, I realized that 100% it was going to work. By starting with Y, I was going to attract early adopters

and early adopters would make the tipping point. I didn't know when. I just knew it would work and I just stuck with it. And I disconnected myself from any arbitrary time-based achievement,

which freaks people out, especially if you're on a quarterly or annual financial schedule. But I disconnected. I knew it would work, and I just stuck with it. Turns out it worked. Some of it worked quicker than I expected. Some of it worked slower than I expected. But it worked.

And young people, myself included when I was their age, I'm not saying I had some, like, I was 100% the same. It had to be a discovery for me. and that discovery didn't come to my early 30s. So my 20s were me being that person going, you're an idiot, I can't waste time. But there's something magical

about being on the path and just sticking, just being disciplined and just sticking to... And a funny thing is, as we're talking about this, I don't think of myself as a disciplined person. I'm actually very undisciplined. Like, I don't have an exercise regime. Like, I go in and out.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And I'm just not a very very... disciplined person and I have so much I have so much respect for people who are super disciplined when they commit themselves to something they do it and they're just really good at sticking to the plan I'm useless at sticking to the plan right and but I'm realizing now the only discipline I had was I trusted in these two theories starting with why and law of diffusion so apply that to the topic of someone who is let's say 35 years old yeah 36

years old, 37 years old. Yeah. And they are, they're lonely. Yeah. I can't tell how many friends I've got and how many conversations I have to the point that I'm considering writing a book and going on the process of research, who are saying to me right now that they are single, they are lonely, their biological clock is ticking.

And the pressure of them trying to find someone is so intense that it's causing them to maybe become less capable of finding someone. Yeah. So I'm trying to figure out what those people that are listening need to help them get out of that. Look, there are people who are better equipped to answer these questions than me. We can breath. But, you know, I can wax philosophical. Like so many things, you know, and I'll use another military analogy, right?

Which is these wonderful human beings who volunteer to wear that uniform are willing, many of them are willing to risk their lives to save the life of someone they don't even like. but they love, right? Or they trust. And what people neglect or forget is that that deep, intense trust that they have for each other does not show up when they arrive on the battlefield. They've been building it and the organizations for whom they work know how to build that trust, that the trust exists by the time they get into combat. And this is when I talk about command and control.

You know, like I talk about asking people and getting feedback and all these things, but the reality is, is command and control also is a real thing. So, you know, if you're a Marine and you show up in combat, they talk about that as managing chaos. That's, they refer to combat as managing chaos. Sounds a lot like an entrepreneurial venture. That is managing chaos, right? And there are times where you have to be command and control. But the problem is, is you can't be command and control before you've earned somebody's trust. So when you're back at home, you're building trust, building trust, building trust, building trust, building, trust, building trust, so that when we are in chaos and I yell in order at you, I don't have time to ask you your feelings. I don't want your feedback. I don't need your ideas. I need you to do as I'm telling you right now. And you have to trust that I'm making the best decision that I can. I'm not going to put your life recklessly at risk. And I even may make a mistake. And people will die because of my mistakes, my mistakes, and that's still okay. But you can't do command and control all the time. It's episodic. And it's earned. And so, So when COVID struck and we first went into lockdown, I went into command and control.

I even made an announcement to my team like, hey, listen, I know we have a culture where there's a lot of feedback. And if you're not, if there's feelings hurt, like we have that mechanism. And I want to hear all that stuff, but I can't hear it for another two weeks. Save it up. If I'm a bit of a, if I'm a bit blunt in a meeting, tell me in two weeks. I just, I don't have the bandwidth right now because what we're doing is survival. And it worked fine. That command and control because I built up the trust. It worked fine. The problem is leaders who believe they can be in command and control all the time, right? So the reason I'm telling you this is you're asking two different questions, one which is more difficult,

which is we need to build these skills when we're healthy and in a good state of mind so that when we're in the mud, we ourselves have some equipment and some tools, and our friends that we're going to call have some equipment and some tools, right? You're asking, with no equipment and no tools and I'm sitting in mud, how do I get out? That is an entirely different conversation that I'm probably the least equipped to answer. There are professionals who are much better equipped to answer that. And what I'm saying is, is,

so that we don't find ourselves in that situation. Right now, with big smiles on our face, how's your day? Great, I'm great. Things are great. When are you taking that listening class? When are you going to practice mindfulness and meditation.

And have you, have you tried meditation? Yeah, yeah. My girlfriend's like a yoga meditation. Okay, so you're forced to do it. Yes, exactly. Got it. I've taken away from it. Right. Okay, so if anyone has ever practiced meditation, you sit still and you focus on one thing. When they say clear your mind, that's not true.

You don't clear your mind. That's impossible. But you do focus on one thing. It could be your breath. It could be your mantra. It could be a dot on the one. it could be a sound, it doesn't matter. The point is you focus on one thing. And when you get distracted or you have another thought, like, ooh, did I leave the oven on? What you do is you label that a thought and you push it out of your mind and you say, I'll deal with that later. And you go back to focusing on the one thing. And there are tremendous benefits to the self of being present and calm and

clear-headed by practicing meditation. But that is not the sole purpose of meditation just so you can be present. In fact, I believe that you are not present until someone else says you are. Right? So the reason you practice meditation is so that when you're sitting with a friend and they're telling you about their good day or their bad day, you are focused on one thing and one thing only, what they're telling you, as opposed to waiting for your turn to speak. And you may have thoughts and you say, that's a thought, I'm going to label that and deal with that later. And you remain so focused. And there's a bang in the background, but your eyes don't leave your friend because you're so present.

At the end of the conversation, they will say to you, thank you for listening. They will say, thank you for being present. They'll say, thank you, I feel heard. Congratulations, you were present. Congratulations, all that meditation was worth it now. The practice of meditation, though it has benefits to yourself, the reason to practice meditation is as a service to others. the ADHD point that you raised, and you've talked a lot about exactly that, which is being able to sit and listen and hear, how did you, because it's almost sounded like

you'd self-diagnosed that as being a, playing a part in your historic relationship challenges. How do you know what I mean? Because if you make that sort of self-diagnosis and then you build a plan around that and it's the wrong self-diagnosis, you know, you end up in another unfortunate place, if that makes sense.

So if I'd self-diagnose myself based on that experience with my parents, I could have been aiming at the wrong target. So it's about, this question's about self-awareness. How does one develop the self-awareness? Is it feedback? I think there's a difference between

introspection and awareness with accountability versus victimization, versus victimhood, right? By the sound of it, you didn't say my parents did this to me. No. Not useful.

But that's victimization. It's the same thing. I can't have a relationship because my parents fucked me. Because they didn't give me an effective model and they didn't love me enough and they didn't hug me enough. And so the reason I can't have relationships

is because of my parents. Disempowering. It's disempowering. It's also victimhood, right? Whereas, okay, well, the cards that I would, was dealt. I got a lot of good cards for some things. And in some places, meh, maybe I got to work a little harder on this one. So the cards that I was dealt from family, I hold no grudge. I'm not

angry at them. They didn't have the tools. It's okay. And I don't curse them for it. They didn't have the tools. But I'm going to have to learn the tools. You know, other people learn it from their parents. I'm going to have to learn it from other sources. And I could say the same thing about listening skills. You know, some parents are really good at holding space for their kids, and those kids will learn how to hold space with their friends because it was modeled by their parents. And some parents don't have the tools to hold space for their kids, or maybe they work in really, really horrible jobs, and so they come home and they're short-tempered. And so, you know, there's a chain of causation there. And the kids aren't learning those skills. They're going to have

to learn it from somewhere else. That's why I say we have to teach it at work. We have to teach these skills at work, or in universities, because we cannot take for granted that people are learning these skills at home or with their friends. What if I just smell, though? Like, and I totally fucking miss the target. And I just stink. Like, I have really bad body odour, but I thought, you know what, what it is, is I'm just too picky. So I'm trying to figure out how we become more self-aware as to what the real issue is. Now, you, it sounded like you'd spoken to some of your exes or something. I have great relationships with many of my exes and

there's one ex I have in particular where we broke up, we got back together, we broke up properly and she hated me for a while I probably blamed her for the breakup. I'm sure we blamed each other and at some point we sort of like calmed down and we went out

for dinner and we sat at the bar, I even remember the restaurant, we sat at the bar and we literally dissected the relationship. And we didn't do it with accusation. What we did was, we didn't sit down and say, you did this, you did this, you did this. Which is how we were for the previous, you know, whatever, six months in our minds.

We sat down and said, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I did this, I did this, and I did this. And sometimes the other person affirmed, yeah, you did that, you know. But we showed up with accountability rather than accusation. And at the end of dinner, we hug each other with immense gratitude because it is so rare that you get to sit down with an X and not only take accountability for the things that you screwed up, but learn about other things you screwed up and learn about how you were received,

even if you thought you were doing things right. And in everything else, if you have a failed business venture, you sit down and you have a hot wash. You sit down and you sort of like go back and see what went wrong so you don't make the same mistakes. You do that in almost every respect of our lives professionally. but very rarely do you ever get the opportunity personally because usually the two people don't want to talk to each other anymore

right but we sat down and by the way there was no expectation that a friendship was going to come out of this we just sort of like I don't know why we showed up but we both did and we would both admit that it was one of the greatest things we could ever have done because we got to find out how we were in the relationship which usually you never find out where you are so to go back to your point I think feedback is the thing you know you know the only common factor

in all our failed relationships is us. You know, you could, you know, it's their fault only lasts for a period. At some point, there's some accountability to be had. And if you don't know what it is, there's something to be said for picking up the phone and calling an ex. And I don't mean the one that just ended up, like, a week ago,

but like give it some time, like calling an old ex and say, I know you're probably surprised at here for me. And by the way, you know, it's been a long time, I know. And the reason I'm calling is because I'm really taking myself on. And first of all, I probably owe you a bunch of apologies for how I showed up in the relationship, but I really want to learn how I showed up. Are you willing to have a conversation and just give me some point of view that I don't have? Do you know if I did that with my ex, right?

Yeah. I don't believe there's anything that they would say that would surprise me. However, I do think they'd say things that I've never acknowledged. Does that make sense? At my core, I think I'd go, yeah, now you said it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So that's a real, so then it gives you a space. Look, you can't screw up that relationship,

it's screwed up. So in that space, you can be like, yeah, I did that. And you're not risking anything. Even the most introspective people in the world don't have total objectivity on themselves and can't see all the angles. You don't have to agree with things. the thing, you know, which is just because somebody says something doesn't mean that it's true.

The way, the way we, when we do 360 degrees feedback sessions in our company, for example, the council we offer is, you know, you have to listen to what the person is saying. The only thing you're allowed to say in response is thank you, because they're giving you a gift by giving you this feedback. They would rather not give you, because it's easier for them not to give it to you. So just say thank you. Don't argue. Don't give excuses. Don't explain. Just say thank you. And you don't have to agree with it. You can ignore it. However, we say, if you have an emotional response to it, like anger, it's probably true. Did you have an emotional response? To some of it, sure, of course. And if you disagree, you just, you say, you listen to it and you go, no, that's not

true. Right? But if you have an emotional response to something where you start getting agitated or angry or wanting to defend yourself, that nerve that they touched, hmm. That nerve that they touched, maybe there's a there there. Thank you for listening. Continue strengthening your mind by subscribing and listening to our other episodes.