The Rest Is Classified - 164. Did the CIA Poison England's World Cup Goalkeeper? (Ep 1)

Episode Date: June 7, 2026

Why did Gordon Banks pull out of the 1970 World Cup quarter-final against West Germany? And was the CIA to blame? Listen as David and Gordon are joined by journalist Gabriel Gatehouse who has spent the past three years investigating whether the CIA poisoned England's star goalkeeper. ------------------- Read Gabriel's full investigation: https://observer.co.uk/news/national/article/did-the-cia-poison-englands-chance-of-being-1970-world-cup-champions ------------------- THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026 at The Rest Is Fest: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 4 September: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/the-rest-is-classified-live/⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Sign-up for our free newsletter where producer Becki takes you behind the scenes of the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mailchi.mp/goalhanger.com/tric-free-newsletter-sign⁠-up⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Join the Declassified Club to go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community. Just go to ⁠⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or join on Apple Podcasts. ------------------- Get a 10% discount on business PCs, printers and accessories using the code TRIC10. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://HP.com/CLASSIFIED⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information. T&C's apply. ------------------- Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified⁠ Video Editor: Joe Pettit Social Producer: Emma Jackson Assistant Producer: Alfie Rowe Producer: Becki Hills Head of History: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books. Join the declassified club at the rest is classified.com. Did the CIA sabotage England's chance of winning the football World Cup? And could devious American spies really have poisoned England legend Gordon Banks in 1970? Welcome to The Rest is Classified. I'm David McCloskey. And I'm Gordon Carrera. Serious allegations, David.

I read those lines under extreme duress, so send help if you're listening. We are, of course, on the cusp of the World Cup about to start in the United States of America. The ticketing process, Gordon, has been fair and just. Tickets are reasonably priced. It's easy to get to games if you want to go. And this time, we are looking at a spy story that raises some very, you know, very dark questions. Gordon, it may be the darkest spy story we've done on the podcast, right? No, I think that's right. Yeah, I think to me, this is like raises the possibility, which it could

break the transatlantic alliance, if true. Big if true. And we are going to look today at a story that examines what the CIA is really capable of. Could the CIA, the beloved CIA, have once sabotaged the dreams of one of its closest allies? Could it have done something, Gorda, that? that if brought to light, could wreck the entire special relationship, or is this just a conspiracy theory? This episode is brought you by HP. In intelligence work, it's rarely the obvious problem that causes failure. It's the overlooked detail or the flawed nobody quite solved.

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So, I mean, if anyone thought spying and sport didn't go together, we are going to look at that specific story, but we're also going to look at some broader questions about espionage, spying, taking place in football tournaments and things like Olympics. And there's a really interesting context and history to this. So it's the idea of spies being involved in sport is not as extraordinary as it may first seem to people. Here in Britain, David, we've just had a massive story in the last few weeks. I'm not sure if you've heard about it, but it's crossed us over on the rest is classified to our stable mates. The rest is football because of SpyGate. Have you heard of SpyGate, David? It might surprise you, Gordon, that I have not heard about SpyGate. So I think I am

going to need you to enlighten me on what it is? It is not quite Watergate, but it involves Southampton Football Club being expelled from a playoff to get into the Premier League because one of their staff was allegedly caught filming a training session for the team they were going to play Middlesbrough, but it was total amateur hour, David. I mean, the picture is the guy who was an intern, and you know about being an intern, but this intern was sent to stand behind a tree with his phone and snapped pictures of the training session for the for the rival team and of course got caught in it you can't do that no you're not supposed to do that why can you do that in american football i don't i don't see why not i guess i guess but are was he did he break into their facility

no well it's against the sense of fair play and decency in the rules it's frowned upon they all yeah yeah it's frowned upon they broke the rules and so they got kicked out the game which was worth hundreds of millions because they could have got promoted to the premier league where the riches are enormous. But it was not high-level spycraft. The CIA would have done it better, I think, it's fair to say. But I think over these next two episodes, we're going to look at a much more serious and, I think, intriguing allegation, which goes back to the World Cup of 1970 in Mexico, when England's legendary goalkeeper Gordon Banks will come back to him, fell ill. Now, there's a new podcast series called Foul Play from Audible, which explores this very question,

And we have, as a special guest, its presenter, a veteran journalist, and I have to say a friend of mine, Gabriel Gatehouse with us to explore this murky tale. Gabriel, welcome. Hello Gordon. Hello, David. Thank you very much for having me on. Gabriel, he's an old friend. Well, in fact, when I first started looking into this, some three years ago, I came to you,

Gordon, for help. Because I was like veteran journalist, very kind of you to say. But, you know, the world of spies and ex-CIA agents is really your domain, at least. as far as I understand it. And so, yeah, I sought you out in a little cafe in London, where you spilled precisely no beans. So I remember this very clearly. I think it was a Thai cafe and we had lunch there.

Yes, I think it was a Thai cafe in Clarkenwell. In Clark and well. And I remember you posited this theory with me. I was wearing a blue trench coat and carrying a copy of the Financial Times. Gordon also had a trench coat on. There's two guys, normal lunch, two guys in trench coats. I do remember you positing this theory with me, which we're going to explore. I remember going like, that's very interesting, Gabriel.

Yeah, whatever. Good luck with that. But yet, here we are three years later. And you have made a fascinating podcast series about it, which I have listened to. And I'd heartily recommend. And I mean, you've done a lot of work on conspiracy theories as well, a big Radio 4 series, a podcast series, and a book called The Coming Storm, which looked at Q and on all these. things. But I guess this is something different for you as well, isn't it? It's a bit of a departure.

I mean, look, should I tell you what the story is, first of all? I mean, so basically, the facts, the proven facts of the situation of this. 1970, the World Cup was held in Mexico. England with the defending champions having won in 66. They were kind of joint favorites to win alongside Brazil, who had an amazing team in 1970 with Pelle and Jaze. Jaze. and various other people. And it was kind of England versus Brazil was a big rivalry. Everyone thought they would meet in the final. That's the way it was going to pan out.

And England's goalkeeper, Gordon Banks, was considered, even by Pelle, to be the best goalkeeper in the world at the time. But just before the quarterfinal, Gordon Banks falls ill. He gets food poisoning, as you do in Mexico, right? I've been to Mexico. I don't know if you guys have been to Mexico, but you get ill there. It happens. He gets food poisoning. He can't play.

It's the quarter final against West. Germany. They put on a reserve goalie, Peter Benetti. He squanders a two-nil lead. The game end three to England crash out. And it's kind of the start of 60 years of her, this kind of dysfunctional relationship that England have with their national team, where we always think we ought to win, but we're always rubbish. David, does the phrase 60 years of her mean anything to you? Is that, is 66 the last time that we won it? Okay. Yeah. And it's been a long torturous, difficult journey as an England football fan since. So that's why this is a big deal.

But, you know, that's the facts. Tell us the theory, the claim that led you to this story and how it came about. Okay, so first off, I now know a little bit about football, but really I'm not much of a football fan, right? So I'm a fair weather, like, I'll watch a World Cup because I like a World Cup. but I don't support a league team or whatever I'm a very much a kind of second tier football supporter so but three years ago I was at an event and a guy comes up to me total stranger

and he says oh you're Gabriel Gait House aren't you you did that great podcast about conspiracy theories in America I was like thanks that's nice of you who are you he said oh my name's Ed and I've got a story for you and I was like oh god here we go this happens to me from time to time So it's like, all right, then, what is it? And he said, well, are you into football at all?

And I said, no, now, I'll stop you right there. I don't know anything about football. And he said, well, have you heard of Gordon Banks? And I was like, yeah, goalkeeper, right? Even I've heard of Gordon Banks, 1966. He goes, yeah, Gordon Banks are my granddad. So I'm like, oh, well, you know, congratulations. Well done.

Your granddad's a hero. Even I've heard of him, 1960s. And he's like, never mind about 1960s. Do you know about what happened in 1970? So I'm like, no, I did not know about what happened in 1970. So he tells me the whole story about favourites to win, Brazil, the rivals, granddad getting ill, crashing out. And he says, well, you know, granddad always used to say he thought something fishy went on.

I was knobbled, you know, he'd say. But Ed was like, wow, we never really took it that seriously. Gordon Banks died in 2019. But a few years later, Ed meets a guy who says, to him, do you want to know the real story of what happened to your granddad at the 1970 World Cup? And it's like, oh, for what? And the guy says, well, the real story is

your granddad was poisoned by the CIA in order to help Brazil win. So I was like, I mean, I basically had two simultaneous thoughts. My first thought was, again, classic conspiracy theory territory, right? It's got the CIA in it, some kind of slightly dubious

sort of motive. My second thought was if this is even just plausible enough to investigate, we might uncover some really interesting stuff about sports

and spying. So I said to Ed, look, send me an email, write down everything you know about this story and I'll look into it, thinking basically this will go nowhere. Three years later, Gordon, here I am. I have been down a series of incredibly deep rabbit holes.

And yeah, I mean, suffice it to say, when I started, I thought this is nonsense. Now, I think, bloody how this could have happened. All right, so I think before we get any deeper into the sourcing chain for this and why the CIA might have poisoned England's goalkeeper in the 1970 World Cup. We'll go down that rabbit hole. But I think first we should set up the victim here, Gordon Banks, who I think is, it's safe to say, is not a household name in the United States of America, but is on your fair islands.

But who is Gordon Banks? I mean, do you want me to go? Because I literally didn't know anything about Gordon Banks, except that he was the goalkeeper for the 1966 England team that won the World Cup, the one and only time we did win the World Cup. And that was literally all I knew about him. But Gordon, you're more into this stuff. Well, I am because I've got a tiny personal connection, right, which I can reveal now on it, which is I am named after Gordon Banks. Are you serious? Oh my God. So that is my personal. That's why I feel quite strongly about this allegation, the CIA might have poisoned the man

that I'm named after. Because the story is my parents both came to Britain in the same. 60s and they wanted to give their son a typically English name. And so Gordon Banks was playing in gold for England and had been. I was born in the 70s, but was still a famous figure. So they called me Gordon, not realizing that Gordon is actually a Scottish name. Gordon Banks, born in Sheffield, working class community. The mad story is his father moves to a village where he sets up some kind of illegal betting shop.

I mean, I was reading about this is all off the. you know, the deep registry that we use and the rest is classified, otherwise known as Wikipedia. I think there's some disagreement among the family as to whether it was illegal, strictly speaking, or just not quite legal, a betting shop. Not quite legal. Okay, but there's a betting shop involved. And then his poor, you know, Gordon Banks' brother gets mugged one day and dies. You know, it's like a kind of family.

It's a complicated family tragedy. Gordon Banks himself leaves school age 15 He becomes something which I'd never heard of Which is a bagger with a local coal merchant age 15 Which I assume means you load coal into bags But I think supposedly help build up his upper body strength Then he's spotted as a youth player And it works his way through teams like Chesterfield

Fine Team, Lester and Stoke And he starts the 1964 season Paid a massive £40 a week As his wage Which for a football as well wage. I mean, it shows you how little they were paid back then and how different, I think, football was in those days. But anyway, he then ends up being part of the famous England, 1966, World Cup winning side. And then, as we said, is still there for 1970. Famous for

this save against Brazil in the World Cup in the earlier stages, the greatest save in the world. I did watch that extensively in preparation for this. And it was very good. It was incredible. It made me think that I don't know how he got up after he made that safe because it looked like his body had come and torn into several pieces as he was diving for that ball. It was incredible. And I think Pelle, who provided the header, also didn't know how he kept it out. I mean, you can see he's just like, he's about to go, oh, and he's like, what the?

So, yeah. So we've set up Gordon Banks as a working class hero, and he's on his way to the 1970 World Cup. But Gabriel, something else happens. Yeah. on the way to the World Cup in 1970, involving a different player, Bobby Moore, another one of the kind of England legends, which is another crazy story. Do you want to just explain to us what happens? So this is a story that I knew nothing about but is quite famous in sort of footballing circles.

And it's known as the Bogotar bracelet incident. So when I first had about this story that had something to do with a Colombian necktie, where a Colombian player got murdered after he scored an own goal. Believe it or not, in our Escobar series, we did go into detail on what a Colombian necktie is. Well, there we go. I knew if it's a friend of the pod, a friend of the show, Colombian necktie.

Columbian necktie is, yes, obligatory attire on this show. Okay, so Bobby Moore is the captain of the England team. He is, I think, probably the first, certainly the first English footballing celebrity. Like Bobby and Tina Moore were like the Posh and Becks of the swinging 60s. I don't know if Posh and Bex means anything to you, David? It does. I actually, those references have made it across the Atlantic to me.

Yeah, I'm following you. Okay. So Bobby Moore, he's a defender. He's the captain. And the tournament is being held in Mexico, which is at altitude. I mean, Mexico City is at like, I think, some half thousand feet. or something like that, which of course is a problem for sports people

because the air is thinner, basically. You need to acclimatize. So Alf Ramsey, who is the manager of the England team, decides what he's going to do is before the World Cup in Mexico, he's going to take the team to a place that's even higher than Mexico and get them to play a few friendlies there so that they can get used to the altitude. And the place he chooses is Colombia.

So the players all go out there and they get to their home. hotel waiting for their rooms to be made ready. And Bobby Moore and another player go into this hotel boutique, a jewelry shop. It specializes in emeralds. It's called Fuego Verde, green fire. They go in there, they have a look around. They may be thinking about getting something for their wives back home, but they don't see anything they like and they leave. And so they're back out in the lobby, sitting around waiting for their rooms to get ready, when suddenly the shop assistant from the boutique runs out and starts shouting in Spanish about a missing bracelet. And she runs up to the England players and she points her finger at Bobby Moore.

And the police are called and the players are made to turn out their pocket. They kind of look under the sofas. Nobody finds a bracelet. There's no bracelet. and the accusation just sort of goes away. England play their friendly against Colombia. They win. They then go on to Ecuador to play another friendly at an even higher altitude.

And then they're supposed to go on to Mexico to start the World Cup. But there's no direct flight. And so their flight takes them back via Bogota. They've got a couple of hours layover. And Alf Ramsey thinks, well, we'll just go and hang out in that same hotel for a bit just to keep the players occupied. And it's when they're there. that the police come to arrest Bobby Moore. Because mysteriously, a new witness has come forward to say that he stole this bracelet.

And so Bobby Moore was arrested. The rest of the squad have to go on to Mexico without their captain to start England's football campaign. And Bobby Moore spends four days in Bogotaar under house arrest. I mean, what do you think, David? I mean, that feels to me like a set up job. Is there any suggestion that the CIA was involved in this piece of the, of sabotaging the team? Or was this more? Well, who is responsible for this?

So, well, it's a mystery that has never been solved. So Bobby Moore always denied that he'd taken a bracelet. No bracelet was ever found. I actually did a deep dive at the National Archives in Q about this, because it turns out that the British government was very, very exercised when Bobby Moore got arrested. And there's a fat folder there marked secret not to be released until the year 2000. So, you know, for some reason, the government thought that these these communiquees and documents that were fluttering backwards and forwards between London and Bogota and Mexico City

were sensitive and needed to be kept secret. And I think part of the reason was politics, because what had happened was that Harold Wilson, who was the Prime Minister of the day at the time, had called an early general election in 1970 to coincide with the World Cup, basically. He had timed it to take place after the semi-finals and before the finals, kind of counting on a feel-good bounce in the polls, right? And so when Bobby Moore, the captain, is arrested, and it looks like England's going to have to play without him, you can see all these frantic cables going back.

backwards and forwards between Downing Street, embassies in Mexico City, in Bogota. Now, Bobby Moore is eventually released through some kind of skullduggery to do with contacts with the local Colombian intelligence chief. And he goes to Mexico and he does join the team just in time to start the World Cup. But in these government documents, I found references to a possible, quote, Latin American can plot against British football. They say British football for some reason, rather than English. I interviewed the diplomat, the British diplomat, who was the chaget d'affaire in Bogotar at the time.

So basically his boss, the ambassador, had left and he was left in charge. His name, Gordon, was Keith Morris. I don't know if you've ever come across a Keith Morris when you were at the BBC. Yeah, cameraman. It's Keith's dad. Yes. Oh, wow. That's a good fact. So Gordon and I used to work at the BBC. We used to work with his cameraman called Keith Morris. I was with Keith in Crimea when Putin annexed it. And when I found out about this diplomat, the 90-year-old diplomat who was involved in this story, I was like,

this name is really familiar. And can you believe it? It's Keith's dad. That is weird. Anyway, so he said that, even though at the time he thought this was far-fetched, he said that what people were talking about was, as he called it, a put-up job by Brazil. That's what people suspected, that Brazil was somehow involved in trying to destabilise the England team. And I think this really is the point that we probably ought to talk about motive. I mean, maybe one of you two want to pick up on this, because that for me was one of the most implausible aspect of this is like, why the hell would the Americans care who wins the World Cup? I mean, 1970, are they into soccer? I don't think they're into soccer really. No, no, not. Exactly.

Do they even know about, like, you know, so for me, this was one of the big kind of stumbling blocks initially. Like, why? Well, the Americans may not be into soccer or football, but the CIA is into Latin American dictatorships at this time. I think that's fair to say. Big into Latin American dictatorships. That, I guess, is the link, isn't it? I mean, I do think even if you look at the Bobby Moore saga, what it tells you, the fact that the Prime Minister in Britain had called an election timed with the World Cup and was worried about the impact of the football and Bobby Moore's arrest on it tells you football and politics and public opinion go together. You know, politicians can see the benefits of success in sporting tournaments, but particularly, I think,

in some countries, the World Cup. That's the point, isn't it? and a little sidebar on that. So Harold Wilson was leading in the polls by about, he was seven points ahead in the Gallup poll when England kicked off in their quarterfinal against West Germany. And then England lost, they crash out, the election is held four days later, and guess what?

Harold Wilson lost. So politics and football. So basically the suggestion was that Brazil, somehow was interested in a World Cup win, politically, right, not just in sporting terms, and that somehow there was some kind of Brazilian involvement in trying to destabilise the England team in this kind of this Bogodar bracelet incident. Now, it is true that the Brazilian military dictatorship, which came to power in 1964, with a little help from you guys, David,

just a little bit of help. No, no, never do such things in Latin America, offended by the insiduation. So it's amazing recording. If you go to the website of the National Security Archive, which is in Washington, D.C., they've got a great tape of Lyndon Johnson telling his CIA director and various other people to basically use their imaginations and do whatever it takes to help these military guys in what they need to do. So look, 1964, the Brazilian dictatorship comes to power with a little bit of help from the Americans. By 1970, they're becoming pretty repressive, right?

So they're dissidents, left wingers are being disappeared, tortured, in some cases, killed. But they're big football fans, though. Oh, my God, are they big football fans, right? If you thought the English... A junta, a junta loves football. A junta loves football,

but like all of Brazil loves football. As one guy put it to me in the podcast, you know, in Brazil, in Brazil, football is literally a religion, right? It's, it is absolutely massive. And if you think about the timeline, so Brazil won the World Cup in 1958 under democracy. In 1962, again, they won under democracy. Then the dictatorship comes to power in 1964.

two years later in 1966, they do terribly. They're knocked out after the first round and, of course, England win. So by 1970, opposition to the dictatorship is growing and there's this kind of narrative from the opposition that Brazil only wins under democracy, right? In the same, it's such, it's amazing because it's a mirror image of Harold Wilson. He said, you know, England only win under Labour. So, like, everyone is using politics, I mean, is using football,

for their political ends. And it is a documented fact that General Medici, who was in 1970, the dictator, was obsessed with winning the World Cup, right? He personally intervened to have the national team coach replaced. He's on the phone to the dressing room after every match. He's like meddling in tactics. He's basically given up running the country. He's just running the football team.

So again, like when you're dealing with these stories and you're kind of trying to sift truth from fiction, fantasy, conspiracy theory. You've got to hold on to what's true. It's true that the Brazilian dictatorship was absolutely obsessed with winning this. So then my question was, okay, well, it's a bit of a leap from there to go, well, the CIA then help them do it. It is. It is a little bit.

Right, exactly. So I thought, well, I've got to find some documentary evidence that proves that at least the CIA was cognizant of the power of foot. and that they were, you know, A, was the CIA worried about the, um, the popularity of the Brazilian dictatorship and B, were they, were they sort of thinking about football as a, as a way of potentially ameliorating it, you know. So obviously, David, I wrote to the CIA. I said, Dear CIA, please would you provide me. I didn't, I didn't go, dear CIA, did you poison Gordon Banks in 1970? Because I thought they might just go, uh, no. They might laugh at you. They might laugh at me. So I, so I wrote to them and I said, um,

Please provide me with any and all documents that you have relating to the 1970 World Cup. And you will be pleased to hear, David, that they wrote back to me pretty promptly. I was really surprised at how quickly they wrote back to me with a little envelope embossed with the CIA logo that plopped through my letterbox a mere month or so later, saying, Dear Gabriel, we have received your request and we shall process it in due course. was the last I heard of them. This was several years. Did you hear me? That was it. But they did say, they did helpfully point me to the CIA's electronic reading room where there's a whole bunch of... That's helpful.

Yes, thank you. I did know about it already. But anyway, thank you for the reminder. So I had a little dig through the already declassified files. And what I did find in there was a declassified memo dated, I think early 1971, so less than a year after the World Cup, where a CIA officer specifically says that the dictator, General Medici, is becoming relatively popular and that the regime is kind of stabilizing in part because, and I quote, he successfully managed to associate himself with Brazil's victory at the World Cup's hockey games in Mexico. So that's the put-up job by Brazil. to Bobby Moore. But let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to see what happens

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Well, welcome back. The scene is room 1208 at the, Guadalajara Hilton in Mexico on the 11th of June, 1970, and the room is shared by three members of England's World Cup squad, Bobby Charlton, Keith Newton, and of course, Gordon Banks. And I guess Gordon, what has happened up to this point for Team England in the 1970 World Cup? Well, a brief football recap. England actually, you had the save of the century by Gordon Banks, but England's still lost actually in an early game against Brazil. But they've still progressed through.

And crucially, England have just beaten Czechoslovakia, which means they are through to the quarterfinals. So defending champions, and they're through to the quarter final. And so this is, you know, you're now through to the business end of the tournament, David. This is where, you know, this is where the pressure really mounts. This is where England are going to be in a couple of weeks in this current World Cup, you know, as we progress through to our glorious victory 60 years on. By the way, is that likely? What is Team England's chances?

This happens every four years. Every four years. It's like, this time we're really going to do it. This is our year. And then, oh, God, no, we're really rubbish, aren't we? Yeah, I'm afraid so. So, Gabriel, maybe you should tell us, give us, you know, what's going on in this room. So, you know, they've won their group games. They threw now to this big game. And what happens at the Guadalajara Hilton? What do we know about what happens? happens that leads to Gordon Banks calling you. So as you laid out Gordon, they've just won their third and final group match and they're going through to the knockout stages. And according to the notes of the team doctor, a guy called Neil Phillips, the players inquire of Alf Ramsey, the manager, whether they might have a quote, quiet drink in one of the rooms. right? So, like, you know, I, when I approached this story,

I was, I honestly was as keen to knock it down as I was to stand it up, because, you know, the only way it works is if it's actually credible. So you've got a stress test. So immediately, I was like, okay, footballers, 1970s,

a quiet drink, really? I mean, you know, so I kind of zeroed in on this quiet drink that ended up taking place in room 1208 of the Guadalajara Hilton. Guadalajara is where England played their group matches, the room in question by three players, including Gordon Banks. I love the fact that they're sharing rooms. It's like they're bunking up three to a room. Yeah, does that happen? I don't think that happens anymore, right? They're not putting them

three to a room at a Hilton. That's how it is on the rest is classified, by the way. Gordon and I, what we do live shows, we just get, we get one room. Very good. Okay, so there's this quiet drink. And I'm sort of trying to triangulate here between, you know, witnesses and the written testimony of people. Like most of the people are dead, right? So it's really hard to investigate this. But we've got the doctor's notes. We've got Gordon Banks' autobiography and what he told his family.

And we've got this player, Alex Stepney, who was the second reserve goalkeeper for the England team and who was also sharing a room with Gordon Banks on the fateful day that he got ill. So the timeline, as far as I understand it, is that they beat Czechslovak in the final group game. They have the quote, quiet drinks in the room. And at some point after that, Gordon Banks says he begins to feel unwell. Now, there is a slight discrepancy in the timeline here because the doctor says the quiet drinks happen on the Thursday. Gordon Banks says there were drinks on a Friday, at which point he says he's had in a bottle of beer. and in his autobiography he writes,

I don't know if the bottle of beer I was handed was open or not when I got it, but what I do know is that about half an hour later, I started to feel very unwell indeed. And it's interesting, isn't it, that they've been quite careful about what they were eating and drinking on the trip. And they've been told to be quite careful, haven't they? Which I assume is more to do with, you know, stomach problems in Mexico than it is to do with poisoning.

But there'd been a lot of kind of warnings to them about it. Absolutely. All the players were given a little rule book. They were told what they could and couldn't do. And a lot of it was about food. So this team doctor was very conscientious. He did a lot of prep. He got all of the England team's food flown out from the UK. He sort of contracts this frozen food company, Findus, which to Brits of a certain generation is kind of redolent of crispy pancakes and fish fingers.

So they fly out all the food to Mexico. He flies out 15,000 bottles of molten mineral water, which he cools in batches in the bathtub of his hotel room with ice in it. So they are in like no street food, no room service, no ice in the drinks, no salad, all of this stuff. They've been given very, very clear instructions. And this is not because they're afraid the CIA might poison them, right? This is, this is, this is Mexico. This is like, let's not get stomach bugs in Mexico. Because Mexico, wonderful country is famous for this, right?

They even have their own type of tummy bug. It's called Montezuma's Revenge, right? And I don't know about you guys, but the first time I went to Mexico in 1995, I got very ill indeed. And I don't think the CIA was out to get me. I was 18 and on holiday. Maybe. So I, obviously, the most obvious explanation, for why Gordon Banks got ill is it just got ill.

It's Mexico, right? I was thinking like even with being careful, even with all the food being flown out, you know, you slip up. You have a bit of a salad that's been washed in tap water. You have a bit of ice in the drink, whatever, whatever, whatever. So that was my, I was trying to sort of stress test that and see, could we find any other suggestions that,

that something else unto Ward happened. We should say he got very ill. He did. I mean, the account I think Alex Stepney has is when I got into the room, I could hear him, Gordon Banks, in the toilet. You don't want to describe it. I think this is what he told you, isn't it? But you know what I mean.

You could hear everything. And I shouted to him. I said, Gordon, are you all right? I mean, we kind of know what they're talking about there. But it's bad enough that it can't play. He can't play. I mean, he essentially can't stand up. So by the morning of the Sunday, which is the day of the quarterfinal, he can't stand up.

And he is basically, he takes to his bed and he watches the match on TV. Funny enough, he falls asleep after the first half, at which point England are 2-0 up. And then he's woken up by Alex Stepney, the reserve goalkeeper. who comes into the room after it's all over. And Gordon's like, how much did we win by? And Alex is like, no, mate, we lost. We lost. So, you know, the thing is that they, obviously they took precautions.

There's this question mark over a bottle of beer, which Gordon Banks himself sort of identified as the culprit. But, you know, as I said, like the obvious explanation for this is you you just get ill. So for me, short of finding a memo where the CIA orders this dastedly deed to be done, which I always knew we wouldn't find, because David, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not the way it works.

No, no. There was also a decent amount of document destruction that happened at the Central Intelligence Agency around this time period. So I think for many reasons you're unlikely to find... Unlakely to find the smoking gun. The smoking gun. Yeah, it's not there. So really my, once I'd sort of established the motive helping Brazil was kind of more or less plausible because of what we knew about what was going on in Brazil at the time and because of that memo that I'd found in the archive. Oh, and by the way, did you know that NASA was helping the Brazilian team to train? So the English, to prepare for the altitude, go to Colombia and get embroiled in this scandal about a bracelet.

the Brazilians just get NASA to help them and they get the guy he's called what's his name Kenneth? Hold on his name is Kenneth Cooper and he is the inventor of aerobics he invented aerobics

but in 1969 he was working for the US Air Force and he'd been seconded to NASA to devise the fitness program for the Apollo astronauts Oh wow But on the side he was helping the Brazilian

team to prepare for training at altitude. And they got the Brazilian fitness trainer over to the States where they hosted him at NASA facilities. So it's like, okay. Does sound like the Brazilians, dare I say, might have been preparing slightly better than the English team with their quiet beers. With their quiet beers the night before the game. I mean, look, absolutely.

Were the English arrogant and ill-prepared? Absolutely they were. They really were. But that does not mean that the CIA did it. I love you, Gordon. You are my most credulous listener. But Gabriel, how do you? So tell us how you got from bottle of beer to the CIA may have had a role in poisoning Gordon Banks.

The CIA may have a role of poisoning Gordon Banks was the story I heard, right? So I was trying to stand it up or knock it down, basically. basically. It's stand it up insofar as one can ever stand up things like this, an intelligence operation that is designed to be secret, if indeed it happened. So I started with the motive, and we looked at Brazil, and, okay, let's call that a tick. Let's call that a possible motive. Then, you know, if you're a detective, you've got two other boxes to tick, right? Motive, means, and opportunity. So when you're talking about someone getting sick, you think about means. right? Did the CIA

have the means to poison someone in the way that Gordon Banks got ill? In other words, David, and maybe you can answer this question, if it doesn't relate to sources and methods, did the CIA

or does the CIA regularly give people a little bout of food poisoning in order to get them out of the way? Not regularly. Oh. And never no. So they do do it. They do do it. We talked about this, Gordon and I, on, it was sort of a detour in a series that we did last year on the CIA's experiments with mind control and LSD back in the 1950s and

1960s where the CIA's office of, well, it became the Office of Technical Service at the time. It was called the Technical Services Division did work on poisons. Absolutely. So there is precedent for the CIA to embed poison in operations. I would say it tended to be focused at, you know, sort of enemy countries and not, you know, friendly goalkeepers. But there is history. Can I just say, David, I might clip this up and put it in my series because you are the first ex-CIA officer to tell me on the record that the CIA had. in the past meddled in a little bit of dodgy tummyism. No way. Did you mean to do that, David? How could I be the first?

This is an established record of what the agency has done and that we've talked about it on this part. I mean, specifically dodgy tummies, though? Specifically dodgy tummies? Yeah. Is that a... What does that mean? No, I think we'll probably get into this a bit more in the next episode, but I mean, we're... Some of the poisons we're talking about were like exotic shelf. fish toxins.

You know, it was not exactly, it was designed for murder, not for sort of dodgy tummies, I would say. So I think you're backtracking, David. I can see you backtracking. I can see you looking at that retirement contract that you have with the CIA going, oh, shit, I know. Fucked up here. Now, I think this might be a good place to stop this first episode, partly so David can consult his lawyers. Always a good idea what I'm done with.

The rest is classified episodes. Send it to the lawyers. Because when we come back for the next episode, we'll dive deeper into what the real evidence is for this, into this issue of the CIA's use of poisons, and the evidence of spying and interfering in sporting tournaments. And of course, just a reminder. You don't have to wait for that next episode. You can get it right now by going to join the Declassified Club at the Rest is Classified.com, where you'll get early access to episodes. You'll get access to our newsletter.

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