The Rest Is Classified - 169. The Murder of Litvinenko: Poisoned in London (Ep 1)

Episode Date: June 21, 2026

A Russian security service officer murdered in London, with radioactive poison. But who gave the orders and why? Listen as David and Gordon begin their six-part investigation into the 2006 murder of former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko on the streets of London. ------------------- THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026 at The Rest Is Fest: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 4 September: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/the-rest-is-classified-live/⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Sign-up for our free newsletter where producer Becki takes you behind the scenes of the show: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mailchi.mp/goalhanger.com/tric-free-newsletter-sign⁠-up⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Join the Declassified Club to go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community. Just go to ⁠⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or join on Apple Podcasts. ------------------- Get a 10% discount on business PCs, printers and accessories using the code TRIC10. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://HP.com/CLASSIFIED⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information. T&C's apply. ------------------- Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified⁠ Video Editor: Joe Pettit Social Producer: Emma Jackson Assistant Producer: Alfie Rowe Producer: Becki Hills Head of History: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books. Join the Declassified Club at the rest isclassified.com. A Russian security service officer murdered in London with radioactive poison. But who gave the orders? And why? Well, welcome to The Rest is Classified. I'm David McCloskey.

And I'm Gordon Carrera. And this week, we are beginning. a new and very exciting series looking at one of the most dramatic spy stories, I think, of this century, the killing in 2006 in London of Alexander Lit Finenko. Now, Lin Finenko is a former Russian FSB security service officer, and he is murdered in a very shocking way, a way that I think shocked London, shocked the world. he is poisoned with polonium. And in this series, we are going to be looking at this story,

which I think will be a bit of a murder mystery in many ways, looking at who Litvinenko was really, why was he killed, how was he killed, the people behind it. And it's a story, Gordon, that I think lets us peel back the layers on modern Russia Vladimir Putin, friend of the show, of course, Vladimir Putin. Yeah. MI6 spy operations and some really dark corners of the underbelly of the modern Russian state. So it's got a little bit of everything.

It's also, Gordon, I think it's fair to say that the nexus of Russian spies, poison, and London, right in the middle of that diagram, you have Gordon Carrera, because this is a subject of intense interest for you. It is, yeah, definitely. It's a really interesting dramatic story with a tense murder story, kind of true crime, and all these layers of spy stories. But yeah, for me, people might remember this case, but I certainly do because I reported on it at the time. And if it's covered it, the aftermath, really, for a good decade afterwards, it's worth saying there's a lot more to it that I think people may have realized that people might know some of the broad outlines, this idea of radioactive poison. But I think what's interesting about this is that when you burrow deep into it in the way we're going to do, you can see these other layers, the layers of how the Russian criminal nexus with the security service operates, how that fits with Vladimir Putin, how London operates as a place in which Russians could have had at one point free reign to carry out their operations. and some real deep spy stuff between the MI6 and the Russians, where the two sides are very much working against each other. So I think there's a lot to the story, isn't there?

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I think it in many ways dovetails really nicely with the series we did last year at the pod with Mark Galiati, where we looked at the rise of Vladimir Putin, the man himself, the system that he, you know, inherits and then and then builds. So it's also a story about Putin's Russia in a lot of ways. And the, and, you know, I think in the case of Litvinenko, the kind of people who stood up against that system and who tried to make Russia different from what it had been and who, of course, I mean, you know, tragically, ultimately fail in their efforts to steer Russia in a different direction. Because, I mean, at the heart of this story is, to some degree,

a very personal animosity between Lippenka, the victim, and Vladimir Putin. And it does get to this bigger issue about how Putin operates, what kind of state Russia is, which all matter for today. This isn't just a history story in that way. But it also tells us how and why the Russian state kills its enemies abroad. And it's fair to say that a lot of people, not just Lipvignonko himself, who were going to meet. in this story, end up dead in the very least mysterious circumstances, and some certainly

a bit more mysterious than that, very suspicious, I think. It's also a story about the British state standing up, isn't it? Gordon, and just saying no, no to Russian influence. No to Russian money in the city. You know, we are not going to tolerate the murder of Russian dissidents and British citizens on British soil, right? So it's really a story about Britain's standing up strong against a malevolent Russia. Wouldn't you say, Gordon?

Or do I have it wrong? Is it actually the exact opposite of what I just said? Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. You've made your point. It does pain me somewhat. Actually, no, I'm not sure it does pain me. It perhaps doesn't even surprise me to say that this is the story about the British state struggling to work out. We're doing more than just struggling to work out how to deal with Russia, but actually...

It's not struggling. There wasn't a struggle, though, right? No, it wasn't a struggle. They basically didn't want to know. I mean, they didn't want to know what Russians were up to. There were other interests at stake, which will get to. And there were a lot of people in the British state who did their best to move on from the murder of Alexander Lipmianco, and just put it all behind us, pretend that it wasn't something extraordinary. I mean, this is the early 2000, an era when, you know, people worried about al-Qaeda and nuclear bombs and terrorism, and yet you have another state using radioactive material to kill people and endanger people's lives in London. And the British state's reaction, I think, is frankly, I think, quite shocking.

And a lot of the details that we're going to talk about may not have come to attention if it hadn't been, for instance, the campaigning of Alexander Lipnienko's widow, Marina, to get the truth out there. It's worth saying, we're going to have her as a guest for a bonus episode for members, so do join up. If you want to hear that, we'll also be hearing from some of the police officers who are directly involved in investigating this, to just understand just how significant this story was,

not just for individuals, but I think for Britain, as well as in the bigger spy wars with Russia. Well, the man himself, Alexander Littendenko, is the heart of this story. So maybe we start with him. So who is Alexander Lenthenko, Gordon? Where does he come from? So Alexander Lepvenienko born 4th December, 1962 in Varnage in southwestern Russia, then part of the Soviet Union, of course, Cold War Days. His parents, Walter and Nina divorce when he's young, and his childhood, I don't think, was very easy. He's moving around different parts of the family. From age 12, he's actually. living with his grandparents in a place called Nalchik, which is in the footholds of the

Caucasus Mountains. The Caucasus is close to Chechnya, which is one of the republics that made up the Soviet Union and plays a role in this story. He leaves school at 17, applies to go to university, doesn't get a place, so instead goes to military college. His grandfather had fought in the Second World War, so that might have been an influence. His college is a training centre for the interior ministry, so still in Soviet days, located in the city in North Ossetia, about 80 miles from Nalcich, where he's growing up. And he graduates in 1985 as a lieutenant, lieutenant. Sandy Hare, quite serious.

I don't know if you've seen the pictures of him when he's young. He's got a kind of both a serious and a kind of slightly innocent, boyish face, which I think maybe goes a bit to his personality, as we'll see. And then he serves in something called the Jajinsky division of the Interior Ministry between 1985 and 1988. I like this. his duty. So he's not really a spy at this point, but one of his jobs is protecting trains carrying gold bullion around the Soviet Union. So he's more at this point, more like a kind of upmarket

armed guard, you know, than a spy as such. Well, and then in 1988, he is recruited to join what was then still called the Committee for State Security, of course, the KGB. And I was struck here, why? I mean, it doesn't, up to this point, if he doesn't have a family history with the KGB, obviously he is inside Soviet officialdom, so I guess that kind of makes sense, but he's not up to this point, you know, he's not been an intelligence officer, and certainly the family pedigree doesn't suggest that this would be a place he would wind up, but he does. I mean, how did the KGB find him, and why? Well, I guess he's come through the interior ministry, so it's the next step up, if you're

ambitious is to go from the interior ministry into the KGB. And we should say the KGB at this point is big and it's not like CIA or MI6 because it includes a foreign intelligence arm, but it also includes a domestic arm and it also includes the equivalent of border guards and quite kind of junior officials, people who are more like soldiers. So I think he's in that world initially. But he's still going to join and get posted to KGB headquarters in Moscow. Worth saying a little bit about his personal life because he'd got married already to his first

wife, Natalia, when he was still a student. So very young, he has a son and a daughter. That relationship's going to fall apart as we see. But August 1991, he's in Moscow. Big moment for the Soviet Union. The KGB hardliners try a coup against Gorbachev, who's then leading the Soviet Union and is reforming it.

The coup fails. It peters out. the Soviet Union's going to collapse into its constituents' parts, including Russia. At this point, Litvinenko is assigned to a new division, which is the economic security and organized crime unit of what was the KGB but it's going to become known as the FSB, the domestic security service. And he's going to work in that department until 1994. This is an unsettled time in the Russian state, shall we say. Russia has or is descending into a kind of Wild West-style mafia capitalism.

I mean, you know, having spoken to agency officers who served in Moscow and St. Petersburg over this time period, I mean, this was a time in Russia where people who served remember hearing a lot of gunfire in the streets regularly. There was a lot of gag land violence as the Russian state had severely weakened. At the same time, I guess you have something that is trying to be a free market that's taking off. People are trying to make money. You have businessmen who are essentially looting and taking over what had been Soviet state enterprises and violence, because again, the Russian state, scholars would debate whether it has truly collapsed, but it has gotten very, very weak. And violence as a result is being used to sort of settle business deals, both small and large, as that, as that is. that state control has collapsed.

I guess Lippenko is in the middle of this because he is part of the sort of former KGB unit that is looking at organized crime. Yeah, so he's right in the heart of this new Russia with all its tensions. He's doing things like investigating kidnapping. So he helps rescue a 19-year-old boy who'd been kidnapped and ransomed for a million dollars. He's also investigating the activities of something called the Tambov organized crime group, which is based in St. Petersburg. So the port city looks towards Europe up in the northern part, the European end of Russia.

And he's looking at evidence that the Tambov group was engaged in smuggling drugs from Afghanistan, via Uzbekistan, then to St. Petersburg, and then from the port getting shipped to Europe and beyond. And he becomes convinced that there was collusion between the Tambov group and Forden were KGB and security service officials. and who by chance is a senior official in St. Petersburg at this time and a former KGB officer, first appearance, Vladimir Putin. Putin had grown up in the city, served in Germany, and then comes back to Russia. At this point, he's left what was the KGB and the FSB. He's involved in politics in the city.

He's out, right? He's fully out of the KGB. No such thing as a former KGB officer. Do they have that phrase for CIA officers? I don't know. They definitely have it for the KGB. But that's the world that Litvin Yanker hasn't yet met Putin, but that he's investigating. And I guess what he's seeing is the way in which the security services are becoming

intertwined with this new chaotic economy and with organized crime. And that's going to be his specialism, investigating those links between the different sides. At the same time, you have this effectively a kind of merger between Russian organizations. crime and the, you know, former KGV now FSB, Litvinenko is trying to uproot the organized crime that has actually embedded itself in the organization that he serves. So you can see there's going to be a lot of, you know, a lot of tension in that relationship. Because he's idealistic. I think that's the one thing about him. He's quite idealistic. I think he, and he believes he can make a difference. He's also at this point going to meet another important character in our story. Marie. Marina. Marina's born Moscow, 1962. She does five years at university, but a real passion is ballroom dancing. And she does this professionally and competitively. She marries her dance partner, but that marriage ends around 1989. By 1993, she's no longer dancing competitively, but it's become a dance teacher. And it's interesting because at this point, two of

Marina's friends from her dancing days, a couple are getting demands for money. So extortion, threats of violence from a former business associate. They report this to the authorities. And Litvinenko comes in to investigate. And he takes it seriously. He offers to help them. He offers the protection. He seems really dedicated. It's that bit of his personality, which is quite idealistic, quite dedicated.

The couple invite him to dinner at Marina's flat to celebrate her birthday, June 1993. Litmanenko's marriage to Natalia is breaking down at this point. So he moves out. They divorced soon after. and then he and Marina get together and they will get married in October 1994. And earlier in that summer, their son, Anatoly, is born June 1994. So he's taken on a new family life as well in Moscow. And it's about at the same time in 1994 that Litvinenko is going to meet another key character in the story,

a man named Boris Beresovsky, who I also think it's sort of de rigour that any Russia intel story that takes place in the 1990s and early 2000s must include the character of Boris Berezovsky. Exactly. He is all over the place, and he's also somebody that you've met before. And you have visited his office, which I think we had maybe talked about

when we did our Anna Chapman episodes over a year ago. But you actually knew the man a little bit. Yeah, I wouldn't say I knew him that well, but I did visit him and meet him face to face in his office, and we'll come back to that, because actually that's going to form part of that story and what he was talking to me about at that point.

Really interesting, really important character, super smart, brooding, intense, ambitious, pugnacious, a plotter who is going to play a key role, as we'll see in the rise of Vladimir Putin, but will then become his enemy. Berzovsky had gone into business in the late 80s as the economy is being liberalised. He starts with a car dealership, then he moves into broadcasting, TV channels, airlines, oil industry. None of that makes sense, by the way. No, as a conglomerate. You wrote it all together like it somehow makes sense as this natural rise. But I think it's fair to say you buy what you can get hold of in these years in Russia.

They're like privatizing industries, which had all been state controlled. And it's just like, yeah, I'll try and buy that. I'll get hold a bit of that. And I think that's what they're doing. These oligarchs, as they become known, are making huge fortunes by being aggressive in how they buy some of these companies. which have been state-owned. And he's going to become first among equal

of the oligarchs, Berosovsky, which also means that he's going to move into politics because that's what happens, is business and politics emerging, because that's where power lies. It's the nature of oligarchy. And that means he's going to have enemies, and enemies will want to kill him.

So the first time he really sees that, and we're going to come back because there's going to be a lot of plotting on people's lives, but Beresovsky's first plot there may be more, comes on the evening of June 7th, 1994, when he's getting into his Mercedes car to drive away from his office and a remote control bomb placed under the car explodes. His driver is killed, reportedly decapitated, sorry for the grisly detail,

but Beresowski himself is injured but survives. And it's front-page news in Russia. It's a big deal, big businessman, the arrival of car bombs as a way of settling business disputes. But the crucial thing is that a sandy-haired, serious-minded, 31-year-old FSB officer is assigned to investigate the assassination attempt. And that's Alexander Litvinenko. And Litvinenko is ordered also to spy on Berizovsky, isn't he? So this gives you a sense of maybe some of the tensions in the organization, which is trying to navigate this chaotic, really violent world of, you know, sort of post-Soviet Russia while also ostensibly trying to bring

perpetrators of these kinds of crimes to justice. But Lufnenko, it's sort of a fascinating element of the man that he's, you know, he's given this job, which has both go solve the crime, but also spy for us on the victim, who is a really important businessman. I guess it makes sense. If you're the FSB, you want to know what's Berezovsky up to. And, you know, you probably want leverage over this guy. Yeah. So Lipidienko is going to accompany Beresovsky on a trip to Switzerland, but using an FSB passport. But what's interesting is that Libbyenko will end up becoming closer to Beresovsky and in many ways more loyal to Beresovsky than he is to the FSB, the security service, his employers. Very interesting progression. There's a story where

a TV presenter on the channel Berasovsky owns is murdered. Police come to talk to Berizovsky. about it. Berzovsky gets a message to Litvinenko that they're coming and Litvinenko arrives and draws his gun and stops the police taking Beresovsky away because the fear is that this was somehow, the whole thing was a pretext to get hold of Beresovsky and maybe get rid of him and bump him off using the police, which gives you an idea of how much plotting and uncertainty there was in Russia at the time. But Beresovsky's result starts to feel indicted to this security service officer. Was Litvinenko being paid by Berzovsky at this point in time? No. I think there might be an element of friendship or loyalty,

but the signs are he really does just attach himself and the two men, very different power relations, start to become, I mean, friends is perhaps the wrong word. Allies, maybe that's a better way of putting it because they both have uses for each other, Beresovsky's. powerful, Lippenenko's in the FSB. And Berosovsky's power is going to grow because at one point it looks like Yeltsin's going to lose, who's the Yeltsin being the president of Russia at this time, might lose the 1996 election to a communist. So Yeltsin needs money. So he does a secret deal with the oligarchs where they're going to throw their money and influence behind his campaign. And in return, they're going to get a bigger stake in some of the industries. So even more economic power,

Beresovsky brokers this deal. And as a result, he's going to end. up becoming deputy head of the National Security Council in the wake of the election. So you can see Berizovsky is moving closer and closer to power, and Lipvinenko is to some extent with him in that journey. But then there is this very interesting interlude for Litvinenko because, and I think it really does cast a long shadow over this story for him personally, which is that he ends up going to Chechnya, where in 94, this absolutely brutal conflict break. out. Now, Chetchday, of course, had been bed one of the Soviet republics. It's largely Muslim. It'd

been seeking independence. And Litvinenko is sent there to work on counterterrorism. Yeah, and it's partly because he's, it's close to Nalchik where he grew up, so he knows the terrain. And so he's going to get asked to do interrogation, interviews of people. He's also at some point certainly going to be involved in combat operations. He's present at one siege, and he's going to see the violence that Russian forces use to subdue Chechen desires and fights for independence. I mean, the Russians are going to flatten Chechen cities. There's kind of a line. We talked about this, you know, when I was working on Syria at the agency, you can kind

of draw a line in many ways from the way the Russians acted in Chechnya to what they did in Syria, to what they are doing in Ukraine, where Russian counterinsurgency is basically just destroy everything. Yeah. Flatten the place. And that's what they're doing in Chechen. It's interesting because the experience there starts to change Litvinenko. There's one example where he's involved in interrogating a 17-year-old Chechen prisoner.

And he realizes all the pupils in that boy's class had taken up arms. And he begins to compare the Chechen defense of their country with the actions of Russians in the Second World War defending their country against an invader. So it's starting to, it's starting to, change his mindset to maybe these people are fighting for freedom. So he's he's, he's idealistic, almost naive and more open to different ideas about the Russian state. Partly, he's developing this sympathy, I think, with with Chechnya. But soon he's going to be back in Moscow from this interlude, and there he's going to directly confront Vladimir Putin in a dramatic encounter

which will define his life and death. Oh, there's our cliffhanger. Let's take a break. And we come back, we'll see how this encounter plays out. So welcome back. By the summer of 1997, Lipvinenko's returned from Chechnya back to the FSB, back to Moscow, and he's in a new team in the Ljubljanka, the famous headquarters of the Russian security services, KGB in the old days, now the FSB. And it's a team for the investigation and prevention of organized crime, known as URPO. But, David, are they preventing organized crime or are they part of it?

That is the question. The answer is yes, right? They're both preventing it and then more broadly, the FSB is also part of it. And Litvinenko, I find this fascinating about him, Gordon, is that he's distressed by this. He seems surprised that the FSB is embroiled not just in maybe mundane corruption, but much more serious things. like kidnapping, carrying out violent vendettas for both politicians and criminals. It's involved in some cases, most likely in murder. And so Littgenenko, this kind of idealistic, somewhat naive guy who's supposed to be stopping

all of us as part of his work with Erbo is actually seeing it take place on his watch and it's being conducted by his colleagues. Yeah, and he's outraged by it. And then the next thing that happens, now he's in this unit, he's asked to look into assassinating no less than Boris Berezovsky, the guy he got close to. I mean, which is wild, you know, that there is a discussion about this, although in true intelligence, you know, service style, the request is given verbally. It's not like a piece of paper going, please assassinate, you know, the deputy head of the National Security Council. But that gives you a sense of what people in this organisation were doing. They were fulfilling vendettas and dealing with political agendas and using murder and criminals to do it.

It's pretty crazy stuff. And Beresovsky certainly has a lot of enemies. He's just negotiated a peace deal with the Chechen rebels. Hardliners see that as a sellout. He's obviously a powerful figure. But Livvignonko, this is the guy he'd got to know, protecting a few years earlier. So he's shocked. and he goes and tells Beresowski about the plot, late 97, early 98.

And again, he's not being paid at this point by Beresovsky. Is that right? Not as far as we know. It's sort of hard to believe, I have to say, just because he very much, if you just, you know, look at this on the face of it, it very much seems like he's one of Beresovsky's agents inside the FSB. but I guess maybe he's friends with the man and as a result because of that friendship is trying to protect him is what you're saying.

Yeah, I think there's an element of friendship and there's an element in which they do see themselves as allies against the corrupt hardliners of the FSB. So Livenenko is motivated by this idealism and Berzovsky is also actually at this point thinking I want to clear out some of these old KGB hardliners and trying to do it. So you can see that they've got an alliance

And this is going to draw them even closer together because Litvinenko and others in the FSB want to be whistleblowers about the corruption. They're nervous. They make a video of their allegations. It's filmed by one of Berezovsky's TV presenters at Beresovsky's dacha. You're looking pained at the idea of doing that. I mean, it's a risky move. It seems like a bad idea. Yeah. Yeah. I guess only at retrospect, perhaps. But at the time, it must have been seen as a risky move in any respect. Yeah, I think a lot of what we're going to see him do in this period, in retrospect, looks mad. But at the time, at the time, I think there was still this view that Russia was on a path to perhaps cleaning up some of this problem, and that that was possible. Now, in hindsight, we know it didn't happen. But at that time, I guess they think it is possible. So he, Litvinenko and Berzovsky go to the head of the FSB, a man called Kovalev and the FSB, of course, bosses and others are really unhappy. that Libyenko has told Beretsovsky about the plot. It's like, what are you doing?

And why are you making these allegations about corruption? That's kind of what we do. And they're saying, you've got to withdraw this. So he's now coming into tension and into these clashes with his bosses. He'll talk about getting beaten up in the street, harassed, bugged. Litvinco's beaten up in the street. Yeah, so he's beaten up by some, I think, some youths on the street. And he takes it as possibly having been arranged by his enemies in the FSB.

But I think, you know, can't be sure about that. And he thinks he's bugged. He gets harassed at work. All this stuff's happening. So it's getting spicy. But President Yeltsin removes the head of the FSB, Cavaliev. So this looks like Beresovsky's clear-out drive is winning. And he might be able to increase his power.

Put a reformer in at the FSB. FSB, right, Gordon? Yeah, someone from the outside who's really going to really going to clean up, clean up shop. Someone you can trust, David. That's what you want. Someone you can trust. So Beresovsky himself, engineers, it looks like, or has a role in putting this, you know, this young guy who, well, youngish, you know, looks like he might be the future. Vladimir Putin.

Oh, and he is the future. He is the future. He is the future. Not in the way people think. Not in the way people think. So he's the new FSB. We talked about this in the series we did on the rise of Putin with Mark Galiotti for our club members. This is, at the time, it was seen as pretty weird because Putin hadn't been a big senior KGB officer.

He'd not been very senior. He'd been in St. Petersburg in a mayor's office. And suddenly he's the head of the FSB. You know, he's kind of jumping over lots of other people who should have got that job. He's seen, I think, by Beresovsky as a kind of blank slate that Beresovsky can write his own message on. and he's, you know, Berzovsky can control him, is the thought, right? Yeah. We'll see how that turns out, you know.

Yeah. With no spoilers here, but let's see if Beresovsky can keep Vladimir Putin under control. So Berzovsky arranges for Litvinenko to go and see Putin, the new FSB head, July 1990. And this is this pivotal moment for both men, actually, because they're going to have this confrontation. It doesn't last long, maybe 10 minutes. But it is incredibly important for what happens next, particularly for. Litvinenko in his life. Putin, of course, not a tall man, takes up martial arts at school so he can stand up for himself and likes to intimidate. But on this occasion, he's cagey. But we do have

an account, don't we, from Litvinenko himself. And it's interesting. Should we read it? Do you want to read it? I'll read it, Gordon. Let me read it. So this is Litvinenko's account of the meeting with Putin. He came out from behind the desk to greet me. Apparently, he wanted to show an open, likable personality. Which, has Putin ever? Was there appointed his, this is me now, was there ever appointed Putin's life where he was attempting to show an open, likable personality?

Anyhow, back to the Litvinenko account. We operatives have a special style of behavior. We do not bow to each other, do without pleasantries, and so everything is clear. Just look into each other's eyes and it becomes clear. Do you trust the person or not? And I immediately had the impression that he is not sincere. he looked not like an FSB director, but a person who played the director.

It's a great description, isn't it? I guess, but doesn't, I mean, maybe this is my American bias, Gordon, but I would presume that most FSB directors are also not sincere, trustworthy individuals. But that's just, you know, that's just the former CIA man and me. No one would ever say that about CIA people. So, Libbynieenko, so this meeting is so interesting because Lipvinenko is there to outline his knowledge of corruption in the FSB and the links to organize crime. And he's brought along this dossier that he's drawn up and everything he knows.

Dossiers are bad ideas. We've established this in our Rock WMD series. Never bring a dossier anywhere. No, and I'm afraid in this case, this dossier is also going to be destined for the rubbish heap of history because it's everything that Lipnienko is collected about links to drug smuggling and organized crime from the FSB. and he offers to hand it over to Putin. And Putin goes, nah. I mean, in retrospect, it seems like such an insane thing to do because Putin is deeply.

And this is what does Litvinenko not know at this point that Putin has been involved in these activities in St. Petersburg. Maybe he does. He missed it in the dossier. He missed it in the dossier. But I guess what he's thinking is Putin is. perhaps Berzovsky's guy like me. Perhaps Putin is there, you know, thanks to Berosovsky to some extent. I think Berosovsky always exaggerates how much, you know, influence he has over these decisions. But he's perhaps hoping this is the new guy, the last guy after all got sacked by the

president. So maybe this is the guy. But when he tries to hand over the dossier, Putin goes, you keep it. It's your work. I mean, that's a bad star. And then he's also got this list of all the FSB officers who Litvinenko thinks are clean. And he tells Putin, well, there are some honest people in the system. And together, we could battle corruption and the mafia despite the dangers. And I like the description. Putin nods. Yes. Putin writes down Litvinenko's home phone number. And he says, sure, I'll call you. I mean, it's tragic. You know, I mean, I find it sad. It is sad. It is sad, you know, because he, it is sad, you know, because This is a guy who thinks everyone else is breaking the rules, but we can change the system.

And of course, as soon as Lipvinenko leaves the room, Putin orders an investigation into Lipvinenko and for the investigation into the corruption allegations to get dropped. So immediately Putin is showing his hand, I think, isn't he? I do think it is a very sad, very tragic undercurrent to the story that there are so many people in Russia at this time who are trying, even inside the system like Litvinenko, who think that there's a different and better way to run the state. And they are ultimately, of course, of course not successful because they're up against, you know, we talked about this at our series on Vasily Matroquin. They're up against this massive organization, the KGB, which by the end of the Soviet area was the most powerful

organization in the Soviet Union. And it hasn't been dismantled at this point. It's very much, very much alive and well. So then, I mean, Litvinenko, and I find this is, this is wild, Gordon, because on November 17th of 1998, he then decides to do something which in retrospect seems totally insane because he goes public with his criticism of the FSB. Yeah. He and some of his colleagues are going to organize a press conference saying they are FSB officers. And in, It's really interesting because the other FSB officers where ski masks, kind of balaclavas, to hide their faces. But Livenenko is the one guy who doesn't do that. Why?

Why? I just think he's got this idealistic, as you said, maybe naive, that's maybe also the word, view that the truth is going to win out. I'm going to be open about this. I'm going to fight it. And he's going to just say that, you know, we've received illegal orders to kill, to kid. that to extort, instead of protecting the state, senior FSB officials are part of the problem. And this press conference is obviously massive at the time. And you can see pictures of it. Berzovsky is in the background, of course, and he's hoping he can use this perhaps to get Putin

to purge the old guard and the enemies. And he doesn't realize, I think, that Putin is allied to that old guard of KGB, as you said, FSB officers who are tied in. to corruption, that he's already chosen his side. He's not capable of being pushed to a different direction. So these hopes are going to be dashed. And it marked Lipvinenko out as a man who'd, you know, Putin's eyes, in colleague's eyes as a traitor. And Putin is going to actually single out Lipvinenko in a personal way in some comments soon after talking about his marriage and other things. And it's that sense where Putin really takes things personally. He's a kind of guy who has rudges, and particularly people he views as traitors. And I think that's, yeah, that's something

we'll come back to when we look at the murder. So Livonienko and the other men are all going to get sacked. Livignenko is arrested, March 1999. He spends eight months in prison, the famous Lafortevo prison in Moscow, where spies and political prisoners are held. It was Stalin's favorite shooting prison, also, Gordon. Yeah, so that's the place to be. I did a decent amount of research on Lafortevo for my second novel Moscow X, which of course all takes place at Russia. And they have this very interesting system in which they don't want the prisoners to interact with each other. And so when they're transferred around in the corridors, they actually have these like wooden boxes that almost look like coffins that are on either end. So if two teams

of guards are taking prisoners down a corridor at the same time, so that prisoners don't see each other, they might stick one of the prisoners inside that box while the other one passes. And the guards have these weird kind of metal clackers, like little cricket things that they click because they don't want the prisoners to hear the guards voices. Wow. And so the guards will click these things to signal who's going into which box and who passes and all that. So it's a very, I mean, a lot of deep history at that prison, but it's, you know, it's a pretty grisly place. They actually, they shot a lot of people there during the terror. And they have these in many of the cells that are these kind of scupper drains that are built into the walls because they were shooting so many people that they had to have clean up.

Drain the blood. Right. And so there's drains on the side of the walls and that they've got pressure hoses or had pressure hoses in most of the room so they can shoot someone, spray the thing down and bring someone else in. Oh, that's grim, isn't it? This is the rich history of the prison where they hold Lipinenko. And luckily he does make it out and he actually gets it's really interesting. He gets acquitted in his first trial in November 1999.

As he is acquitted, FSB officers come into the courtroom and arrest him again. I mean, it's just like you couldn't get a clearer signal, we are going to get you. And then he's released on bail in December 1999. This is such an interesting moment because so much else is going on in Russia. Big changes in Russian politics. President Yeltsin was ill. His priority is getting out of office in a way that protects him and his family from corruption charges. They think we need an empty vessel who will do that, who will give us immunity, come up with a deal.

Who do they pick? Who do they pick? Vladimir Putin. Volodya. Yes, indeed. Everyone thought, everyone thought this guy was malleable. Our guy. Yeah, our guy. And, you know, he's a spy. He's going to bring strength and stability. So he gets first of all made Prime Minister August 1999. So he's moving up the ladder from FSB Prime Minister. And then something

important happens, which we will come back to because there's a series of devastating bomb blasts which had apartment buildings in Russia in September. So just after Putin is made Prime Minister, hundreds of people are killed. These appear to be dramatic terrorist

attacks which scare the country. It's blamed on Chechens. They confirm the idea you need a strong man, a former KGB man, some might say, to take on the Chechen insurgents. And this paves the way for Putin's rise and also for a new war in Chechnya to take on those who are said to be responsible. We'll come back to these bombings because they're very interesting and very important. But Putin's on the rise. You've had the bombings. Yeltsin then resigns New Year's Eve, 1999. Putin from almost nowhere is acting president, does the deal with the Yeltsin family, is going to become president.

very quickly, though, it becomes obvious, doesn't it, that he's not the empty vessel, because summer 2000 Putin summons all these oligarchs, the big businessman, to a barbecue. I mean, I love the image of the barbecue. Sausages. I don't think Putin would be grilling the sausages himself. Putin had the chef's hat on in the apron and he's turning the sausages over. I think that's how it works. And he says to the oligarchs, you're not running me, I'm running you.

You know, you are my guys. You bend the knee or else you're out. Stay out of politics. Then you can keep your money. If you interfere in politics, I'll take you down. And Beresovsky is the guy who is not happy with that. He's one of the few who are not happy with that. But he's one of the first ones to really clash with Putin.

And there's this really interesting thing where there's a moment where this really comes to life because a Russian submarine, the Kursk, sinks in the Barents Sea, August 2000. A hundred and 18 people are on board. It's a really dramatic story as families. hoping maybe these men could be rescued. And Berosovsky's TV stations, we said he owned TV stations, go hard on the new president, Putin. Critical of him. Putin's on holiday. It's only, it's only, 26 years later, Gordon, this is now an impossible situation to imagine that you'd have, you actually have Russian media that are taking the president to task because

Putin's, Putin's on vacation when this happens, right? And yeah, it's, it's kind of, the response is seen as slow and kind of tepid and Berizovsky just has his stations, rake him over the, over the coals for this. Putin is not amused by this treatment. No. No, it's fair to say, so Putin summons Berizovsky to the Kremlin and basically says, hand over your TV channel.

You know, give it to me because you can't go on like this. It's the new Putin way, which is I'm going to put order in oligarchs, I'm going to tell me what to do. Berosovsky refuses. And so he flees to the United Kingdom. him, late 2000, by France, I think, claims asylum, and from there he begins to plot. He's a plotter. But the crucial thing is he's not the only one to flee. So during the year 2000, Litvinenko is out on bail and very unsurprisingly concerned for his family. He's getting

harassed, fair to say, getting messages from people inside the FSB that he's viewed as a traitor. and Marina has said that her husband had actually been approached by an FSB colonel who had said, we will not continue discussions with you. We will kill you. To be clear, we will kill you and your six-year-old son. You are being prosecuted not for any crimes that you may have committed. Everybody knows that you did not commit them. You are being prosecuted for betraying the system and openly acting against the system.

So, wow, that is a very clear message that it's time for the Litvinenko family to go. Yeah, that's right. So late September, Libneiko tells Marina he's flying to Nalcic to visit relatives, but he then crosses into nearby Georgia. He can get in there. His international passport has been taken by the FSB, but he's got an internal one which he can use to cross the border, goes to the capital of Georgia, Tbilisi. He passes a message to Beresovsky, who in turn contacts some of his people, so particularly a guy called Yuri Felchinsky, a Russian-American writer, investigator of the FSB. Felsinski travel. from Boston to Tbilisi to meet Lipvinenko. All of this and all that we hear about, it's going to be funded by Beresovsky. Lipvinenko gets a message to Marina, his wife, tells her to buy a new mobile phone, calls her on the new phone,

tells her and Anatoly, their son, has to go on holiday anywhere, just get somewhere. They go to Malaga in Spain. Then he speaks to her when she's in Spain, and he says he's not in Nalchik, he's in Georgia. They have to decide if they're ever going to return to Russia.

If they go back, the chances are he's going to get arrested, jailed, killed, maybe even their son. They can't be safe. And Marina, I think, at that point, agrees it's time to go. So meanwhile, Levinenko's in Tbilisi. Felsinski is with him. They're worried. They're worried the FSB are going to know that they've gone. They're going to be tracing them.

People are starting to call around Moscow, including to Feltschinsky, saying, do you see Livinenko? So it's interesting. they first try the US embassy in Tbilisi looking for political asylum. It's refused. I think it makes some sense, yeah. And then Lippanienko gets a false Georgian passport, not entirely clear how.

They then use that to go to Turkey, to Antalya. Felschinsky goes and gets Beresovsky's private plane. He's got a private jet. It's helpful when you're trying to escape places. To collect Marina and bring her and Anatolia to the family are reunited. Feltzczyk, at this point, is replaced by another Russian exile, guy called Alex Goldfarb, scientist, activist from New York. Alex asks people, you know, before he leaves in Washington, he says, you know, how do I get this guy out? Can I take him to an embassy?

They say, don't get involved. Too dangerous. So now it's Goldfarb Litvinenko. They go to Ankara in Turkey, try the U.S. embassy there. Litvinenko and Marina interviewed separately by U.S. officials in secure rooms. Do you think, I mean, would that be CIA doing that? you know, if it's a prearranged, you've got an FSB guy turning up? I tend to think it would, yeah, it would probably start with a consular officer

and then make its way to eventually to someone from the agency. I would think, I mean, because it seems like these were not, it wasn't a 10-minute interview, they end up having longer discussions with him. So I'd imagine at some point, yeah, you would have the CIA involved, which I think is interesting because maybe it speaks to something of the, maybe both the politics of the times where of course Russia is not the implacable foe that it is today and at the same time also maybe what Litvinenko isn't he's not offering his services as an asset he doesn't it probably doesn't want to be debriefed by the CIA about the interworkings

of the FSB I mean this is very much a political asylum case isn't it where he wants a safe safe haven a place to land Yeah, rather than being a spy. So yeah, he gets interviewed by the Americans for three hours. He goes back to the hotel that evening, I think realizing he's not going to get out and he's going to be told the next day, no. I think you're right. I think it looks a bit complicated.

It looks a bit murky. The politics with Russia are, do you want to get into a fight with someone who's the new Russian leader's enemy? So they escape, they drive out in the middle of the night from the car park. They fear the FSB are on their tail. At this point, they're getting pretty desperate, I think. one of Berosovsky's business partners suggest sending a boat to pick them up in Istanbul

but Golfarbe is Alex Golfiab is researching where they could get by air without a visa and the solution they eventually hit upon was to fly to the UK to London by purchasing tickets from Istanbul to Tbilisi via London as that didn't require a transit visa now it's a slightly weird route when you think about it isn't it? You're going from Istanbul in Turkey

or, you know, to Tbilisi, via London. Via London. It's like, that's not a logical route. But that's the one they pick precisely because they, because of the visa regime. So 1st November 2000, Alexander Lipanenko, Marina and Anatoly fly to London. They land at Heathrow. Lipinenko approaches the first police officer. He can see in the transit area.

And he says, I am KGB officer and I'm asking for political asylum. We'll be there, Gordon, with London, now set to become Litvinenko's new home. Let's end this first episode of our series on Litvinenko. And we come back, we will see how this battle with Putin is going to get even more dangerous. And don't forget, if you want to hear those episodes right now, then you can by joining the Declassified Club at the rest is classified.com. You get early access, ad-free listening, lots of other things, including some bonus episodes where we're going to and be talking to people directly involved in this case, including one of the police officers who led the investigation into what happened. So do join the club, but otherwise, we'll see you

next time. We'll see you next time.