The Rest Is Classified - 66. The Great Betrayal: An American Traitor (Ep 1)

Episode Date: July 20, 2025

How did an alcoholic, drug-addicted hippie end up working for the CIA? How are CIA agents trained? And what is the real purpose of a lie detector test? Join David McCloskey and Gordon Corera as they discuss the life of Edward Lee Howard, the only CIA officer ever to defect to Moscow. ------------------- To sign up to The Declassified Club, go to⁠ ⁠www.therestisclassified.com⁠⁠. To sign up to the free newsletter, go to: ⁠https://mailchi.mp/goalhanger.com/tric-free-newsletter-sign-up ⁠ ------------------- Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ nordvpn.com/restisclassified It's risk-free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee ------------------- Order a signed edition of Gordon's latest book, The Spy in the Archive, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠via this link.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Order a signed edition of David's latest book, The Seventh Floor, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠via this link.⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Email: [e-mail] Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@triclassified⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Assistant Producer: Becki Hills Producer: Callum Hill Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the Declassified Club at therestisclassified.com. In the military command voice he told me, sit down, face front, don't look at me, don't look to the side. He sounded and acted like a drill instructor and he tried to intimidate me. When he asked me if I'd taken drugs that day I answered yes and told him about the prescribed tranquiliser. He hit the roof because he knew, although I didn't at the time, that taking a mild tranquiliser can usually enable a person who lies to beat the

polygraph. The hammer questioned me again and again about drug use and drinking, and on Friday he gave me yet another polygraph test, my fourth. Apparently he was pleased with this last one, and he thanked me for coming, smiled, and shook my hand as I left. Well, welcome to The Rest Is Classified. I'm the non-drug-taking, non-tranquilizer-taking Gordon Carrera. A likely story, Gordon. I'm David McCloskey. That was. I was reading, rather than telling you about my day, I was reading from the memoir.

Your journal entry from this morning. A former CIA officer, Edward Lee Howard. That was his memoir where he's talking about being given a polygraph test by someone he calls the Hammer. And this time on The Rest is Classified, we're telling his story. and it is a really interesting one because he is the only CIA officer ever to defect to Russia. And what makes it I think such an interesting story David is it's how one person for quite kind of mundane ordinary reasons can end up becoming a traitor and doing some really significant damage. So he's a really interesting but not necessarily a very famous figure isn't he? Yeah I think he's certainly in the B-list, I would say, of espionage characters. And yet I would say that doesn't make him any less interesting.

His story itself is fascinating. And it is a story that is at once extremely human, right? So we're going to get a bit of a case study here in why people spy. There are a lot of different reasons why people make the decisions that they do in espionage. And Edward Lee Howard is going to make, as you said, these decisions for very, very personal kind of mundane reasons. Right. But it's a very human story about him, his choices, his family, his life, his time at the CIA. And it's also a story that is really about, I guess,

kind of the apogee of Cold War espionage and tradecraft. Right, this is the mid eighties. This is kind of the height of the spy war between the CIA and the KGB. And in the middle of this is going to be this fairly unassuming guy named Edward Lee Howard. And I guess I was also thinking, Gordon, I don't know why he needs the middle name,

but in everything, every book about him, we always give him the middle name. He's not Ed Howard, he's Edward Lee Howard. Sort of like a serial killer, I guess, gets three names, right? Edward Lee Howard gets three as well. It's really interesting as well, because it's also about how to kind of screw up sacking someone and human resources, isn't it? It's about something which actually lots of workplaces could probably sympathise with, which is how do you deal with someone who's a bit of a

screw up and doesn't fit in? This is how not to do that. HR professionals listening should take caution. Yeah, there've been a lot of firings at the CIA recently, and people have talked about Edward Lee Howard actually as a kind of reference point, as a kind of warning indicator of what can happen if you get that wrong. And I think that's also one of the interesting things about this, that even though it's a historic story about the kind of height the Cold War, it has got some interesting kind of parallels to today, hasn't it? It's one of those great spy stories, I think that to your point, it takes place in the mid 80s, right? But it really does have resonance today. And I think also shows the

evergreen nature of this truth in the business, which is that if you turn a human in another country's spy service to your ends, you can completely turn that service inside out. And what's really fascinating about and really tragic about the Howard story is that, I mean, this is, I guess you'd say, Gordon, it's kind of the other side of the Tolkachev story that we told, I think it was episode 14, when we did a four part series called Crossing the Iron Curtain, if listeners want to go back and hear that story. Adolf Tolkachev was the CIA's billion dollar spy in Moscow, His intelligence had been valued at a billion dollars,

and he's betrayed by Edward Lee Howard. Edward Lee Howard's treason completely upends CIA operations in Russia, Moscow station, in the mid-80s. We have one guy who for revenge totally turns the CIA's Russia operations inside out and ends up getting an asset killed in the process. Shall we get to the story? It's a story of drinking drugs, isn't it? And I notice here you say it's a perfect drinking game that listeners can take. I love how Gordon refuses to take responsibility for that in the script. And I guess rightfully so because I did put that in. Yes.

Well, you might want to have a drinking game during this, but a perfect drinking game. Listeners could have a drink every time Ed Lee Howard does to see if you can keep up. I will tell listeners that they probably won't be able to. So yes, let's start with Ed Lee Howard. Now like all good rest is classified podcast series, Gordon always fights me over how much I can talk about on the background side of things. Right. And Gordon will remember

from the Osama's Wives series, Gordon didn't want to hear about Osama's wives. He didn't want to hear about the polygamy. Right. And so I have very helpfully, Gordon, boiled it down to basically a bullet point list of important things to know about Edward Lee Howard's childhood and early life. So he's born in New Mexico on October the 27th of 1951. And I think there are four, Gordon, four important things about the young Eddie Lee Howard. So his father is a sergeant in the Air Force. So Howard is an Air Force brat.

And it means that he's moving around constantly as a kid, constantly. The family's probably done like seven moves by the time Howard is 18 years old. So number one, his life, his kind of social life, his family life is very ruthless as a kid. Howard will say that as a kid, he just kind of wants to be outdoors, be a cowboy on a ranch. He's an altar boy at the churches on the various bases they go to. He's a little leaguer. He's a boy scout. Right. Do you have boy scouts, Gordon? Yeah. Boy, cub scouts.

Cub scouts, but not boy scouts? Yeah. Well, yeah, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. Cubs and scouts. Yeah. Cubs and scouts. Okay. I was a cub. You were a cub. Okay. Never made it to boy, but just a, so that's one the family is ruthless Two is it seems that there is a an abusive undercurrent in the home and then there's this really

Nasty story about how when Edward Lee Howard is as young as father holds him up by the legs Until he pees his pants. I think it is a memoir. He's really Circumspect Edward Lee Howard is really circumspect about this, but it seems that there's some kind of undercurrent there. And I'll point out that, of course, not everybody who's ruthless and not everyone who deals with some form of abuse ends up becoming a traitor. But those kind of daddy issues are common, aren't they, among people who decide to commit treason?

Yeah. Kim Philby, the famous British traitor, certainly had a very complicated relationship with his father. I'm not sure I describe it as abusive. But you, you do wonder if there is a slight element of the desire to betray things or to turn against things comes from that experience. Who knows? But I think it does seem to be one of the factors in Edward Lee Howard's early life, definitely.

Edward Lee Howard will end up attending the University of Texas. And this is the third point, Gordon, which is by the time he's at UT in the sort of the late 60s, early 70s, it's kind of coming of age. And he says that he has turned against the military establishment in the US. It's the era of Vietnam protests, isn't it? Counterculture, hippie culture. And he seems to be part of that, doesn't he? He seems to be taking that leftward turn. I think he boycotts classes after students are shot by the National Guard at Kent State. He seems to be part of that counterculture protest movement motivated by Vietnam and things like that. Yes, exactly. And none of it particularly abnormal for the time. I mean, maybe even

actually the norm, right, in the 60s and 70s. But he's part of that, which is interesting when you think about where he'll end up working later on. So that's the third point, is he becomes a bit of a member of this counterculture. So in May of 72, he graduates from the University of Texas. He graduates in the top 10% of his class. So he's a pretty smart guy. He has what he calls a healthy distrust for the military industrial complex. Starts to think, ah, the Cold War is kind of pointless.

He joins the Peace Corps. Is there an analog for that, Gordon, in the UK? Yeah, maybe to explain what it is. It's a kind of volunteer overseas working on international development. Do-gooders. Do-gooders. There's a Kennedy thing. Yeah, it's a Kennedy program where basically, I mean, I guess, right out of college, kids would go to country in Africa, Asia, and essentially be doing some kind of

service. And so it's kind of the opposite of the Central Intelligence Agency. And in fact, I think it's still the case today. The desire to keep that program separate from the intelligence community means that the CIA actually can't recruit out of the Peace Corps. But for Edward Lee Howard, his kind of peacenik gap year, he's going to go to Colombia in Latin America. He loves Colombia.

It doesn't sound like he does a lot of development work there, other than of the slightly more, I don't know. He says he goes dancing every night in Colombia. Now, this comes from his autobiography, which I'd have to say I don't recommend listeners read. No, agreed. Gordon and I will be giving you some of the cliff notes on Edwin Lee Howard's autobiography, which is called Safe House. He says that he has a reputation in Columbia as a, quote, fast operator with the women. I find it hard to believe looking at pictures of the guy kind of looks like an accountant to me, even from-

That's a bit harsh on accountants. Accountants can be dynamic, good-looking people. Why did I say that? That was mean. I guess my point is he does not look like a fast operator. He does not look like any Hollywood conception you would have of a spy or intelligence officer. He looks like he's middle management somewhere. And this is where the drugs come in though. And prepare yourself if you're playing along with the Edward Lee Howard journey into substance abuse on the podcast, because this is the fourth point. And it is in Columbia that he gets a taste for drugs, for cocaine.

And he says in his autobiography, you know, it was easy to get. It's plentiful. It's everywhere. He's got this this great section where he's describing some of these sort of wild, wild nights. And Edwin Lee Howard writes that on Friday and Saturday nights, we'd sometimes buy a gram or two of cocaine and share it around. I lived in a house on a hill with two housemates. One of them was named Freaky Freddy. Apparently, this is how he's referred to in the book. that lived in a house on a hill with two housemates. One of them was named Freaky Freddy, apparently. This is how he's referred to in the book.

And he's another Peace Corps volunteer, we should say, Freaky Freddy. Freaky Freddy. If Freaky Freddy is listening to this podcast, we would love to interview you about Edward Lee Howard. I don't think Freaky Freddy is around anymore, Gordon. No, I guess it's taken its toll on him. A bearded, long-haired young man from Brooklyn

who'd worked on tugboats. Tugboats. And he was a health food nut. That's right. That's right. I can picture him shopping at Whole Foods right now. And he spent most of his two year tour with the Peace School in Columbia in his bedroom and in the kitchen. He rarely went to work, maybe once every two weeks. And that's ready. And

then there's also Alfonso, who's a Colombian lawyer in his late 60s, a Marxist who basically supplies him with cocaine. So these are his friends out there. Freaky Freddie and Alfonso. Edward Lee Howard, he's very careful about how he describes his drug use in his book, because he says, you know, look, I never categorize it as abuse of drugs, right? He claims it never affected his behavior at work. I find, I don't know, the frequent use of cocaine to be, you know, sort of incongruent with the idea that you're a model employee, but there you go. And a couple things happen, Gordon, in Columbia that are important. It is that he gets married to a woman named Mary, who's another Peace Corps volunteer

in 1976. And he's going to go on to get a job with USAID. Which is the International Development Department, which no longer exists. Which no longer exists. It's been just been abolished. Gutted. That's right. But he gets a job with USAID shortly after getting married in 1976.

And then he and Mary go to Peru until 1979. Now, it does seem that there's more drug use in Peru. Again, we're bringing this up, not because it's particularly abnormal of the times, right? But it's abnormal for someone who's gonna end up working for the Central Intelligence Agency. And I think Peru is interesting because it's probably the case in Peru

that he even gets the idea to apply to CIA, right? Because he's working with USAID, he's working at the embassy, and he probably has some contact with the station in Lima. It's still a bit murky to me of why he chooses to do this. Because in the summer of 1980, he applies to the CIA. Yeah. You know, you'd think with the whole, you know, I'm against

the military establishment, I'm a recreational drug user, you'd kind of, what are you doing? I think he's just really restless. Don't you think Gordon? I mean, there's something about this guy that's just not settled ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's looking for travel. He's looking for adventure. I mean, there's two odd questions. One, why is he applying for the CIA, given his background? And secondly, why does the CIA take him given his background? Both

are kind of slightly odd to me, I think. But he's working at, I think, a Chicago consulting firm after he's been in Peru. So I just wonder if he's back in Chicago by that summer, and he's just bored. He applies. I think the restless spirit is probably most of the answer there. And he gets a letter on plain paper with a phone number, asking him to call. Now does that sound familiar? No, it's absolutely not how it works anymore. This sounds like it sounds much more interesting, if it's actually true. And a lot of Howard's autobiography, where some of this stuff comes from, is sort of categorized, I think as big if

true, right, because he's not a particularly reliable source. But I think it is worth I mean, to your point, Gordon, of why would the CIA be interested in this guy? It's probably worth setting up the CIA of the kind of post Vietnam era when Edward Lee Howard is joining because the CIA is founded in 47, right? And I think it'd be safe to say that the CIA

of the kind of late forties, fifties, sixties is dominated by these kind of old school establishment Easterners, you know, you call them like Yale skull and bones types, which I'm not sure if that does that resonate in the UK? Skull and bones is like an elite society within Yale, very old school, isn't it? For British listeners, I think it's the equivalent of the Bullingdon Club. You heard of the Bullingdon Club? I've not heard of the Bullingdon Club.

Well, I was not a member of the Bullingdon Club, it's fair to say I was not sufficiently establishment, but two of our recent prime ministers, David Cameron and Boris Johnson were, and I think it's fair to say involves a lot of, a lot of drinking and strange rituals. Yeah, that's skull and bones. There you go. That is what very wealthy establishment people do on both sides of the Atlantic is they join these strange clubs, and

they sit in very nicely appointed rooms and drink too much and do weird things. So we have the same thing going on in the Central Intelligence Agency of the early Cold War, but Vietnam and what we call kind of the Church Pike committees, right, these congressional committees that have been stood up in the mid 70s to investigate and bring to light a whole raft of kind of CIA abuses and behaviors. I mean, we covered one of them on this pod in our episodes on MKUltra, the search for this mind control power, right, inside the CIA. So this stuff has come to light and it has made the CIA much less popular.

So the CIA, I think, by the time you get to the 70s, early 80s, is dealing with the talent problem because those old school Easterner, skull and bones types are kind of aging out. You're having to fill your ranks with people coming out of college, bright young people who want to see the world, know languages, are able to be analysts and case officers. And Howard, in the midst of this sort of talent problem the agency is having, is a really interesting candidate.

Yeah, I guess you can kind of see it. That if you're trying to break the mold of the past, and you've got Howard, who has lived abroad, because he's lived abroad in Colombia and Peru, he's got some languages, foreign experience, he's been in the private sector, you kind of can see that maybe there's a reason for that. But still, the next stage of the process really doesn't make sense to me, because he's got to go through this vetting process, hasn't he, in which your background is going to be checked, you're going to be screened, you're going to have your medical records checked. And we've already established that he's not exactly clean when it comes to this.

Yeah, no. So he's going to have to go through a polygraph, a background investigation, medical investigation, and a psych exam. In addition to all of the other normal things you do when you interview, like you go and sit and have a conversation with recruiters and things like that. We should explain the polygraph, you know, often known as the lie detector. We read from that at the opening with the hammer, polygraphing him. He was still around when I went through, Gordon. I think we still had the hammer. Well, I was going to ask, did you get polygraphed on entry? Sure, yeah. So, Gon, tell us about it. I've always wondered what it's like to be polygraphed. It is interesting, isn't it? Because SIS, they don't polygraph. No, MI6 don't really, they don't rely

on it. I think they've done it occasionally, but they don't rely on it. I think that's the difference. It's not part of normal procedure that you would rely on in the same way as the American faith in technology, including the polygraph. But surely you get asked control questions where you're telling the truth, and then they'll ask you something more sensitive, and it's trying to see if there's a change in your, I don't know, your body's behavior to do with it. Surely you can just, you can game it, can't you? Isn't that what you did to get through? Yeah, exactly. How else would I have gotten through? How else would you have got through? I think it's best to see it as a tool for intimidation, not for truth discovery or, or said differently or more, maybe a bit more precisely. It's a way to kind of shake things loose and see what comes out. I mean,

the way it worked for me is I took my first polygraph when I was, I think I was 19, Gordon, because I was an intern, they bring you to the DC area, typically. I mean, as an analyst, you'd come in and you'd do interviews at Langley or whatever. And then you go into a room and it's very sterile. You do have the stupid two-way mirror, which is hilarious, right?

I mean, that's there. There's like a desk, which clearly no one actually sits at regularly, but still has weird stuff on it. Like I remember there was like a bowl of candy that looked kind of dusty and there was a map of Ohio up on the wall, you know, county level map. And I remember asking the polygraph at one point because my dad's whole side of the family comes from Ohio and my wife's family's

from Ohio. You know, if he's from Ohio and he kind of looks like he didn't even know that the map was there. Like what kind of question is this? Right? He had no clue. So you're in this really sterile environment. And they set you down and they kind of just start with a conversation which begins kind of friendly-like. This was my experience. It can all be, I think, a little bit different. And I would also say that the kind of people who are wanting to do polygraphy work, I would actually love if anyone would reach out to us because I cannot imagine wanting to do this kind of work. But you're basically sitting there in

this kind of pretty small room, eye level with each other. And they'll start to just kind of ask basic questions. They'll do that little control thing you mentioned where they'll hook you up and you've got blood pressure cuff, you've got like a band around your chest to measure your rate of breathing. And then you've got a few things that will slip over your fingers to measure basically your galvanic response, right? So the sweating and things like that that are coming off of your fingertips. And essentially the idea is you're monitoring stress levels, right? And the idea would be that if I'm if I'm lying, those stress levels are higher or sort of abnormal

relative to whatever baseline they set early in the interview. And the actual polygraph itself is only like, six or eight questions. It's all yes or no. But a lot of the intimidation is the conversation with the polygrapher about whether you're going to say yes or no. So in my case, there's I believe a question about crime, right? Because the questions are pretty standard, right? I mean, it's like, are you working for a foreign intelligence service,

right? Things like that. The thing about crime is like, well, okay, if I ask you this question, what are you thinking about? And I start, you know, I'm listing off all the kind of pranks he pulled in college and things that had led to what I would describe as sort of light **** crime, but weren't actually serious. You know? Be careful. We are on a podcast, by the way, so if you confess to something, people are listening,

by the way. Maybe Callum can bleep that out. Can he bleep out my youthful indiscretions? And they're kind of saying like, the polygraphers saying, well, no, no, no, that doesn't count. I don't care about that. Because there is obviously a bar. If I'm like, hey, I burned down some houses when I was 16, that would be up there. But if it's like, oh, you know, you broke some windows on accident, and you threw a shopping cart off of a roof, and you raised a pirate flag up over the college campus, like that kind of stuff is not going to they don't care, right about that. But you did all of

those things just to confirm. Well, now I'm now I feel like I shouldn't respond. Yeah, I did all those things. Yeah, I want to hear more about that. That's like, you know, youthful fun, Gordon. You know, they don't care about that, but then they hook you up to the machine and he's like, okay, great. You can answer no. When I ask you this question, hook you up to the machine. I answer no. And then he says, you're lying. You're hiding something. And then you start to think, well, did I forget something? Am I? So they push that way and it goes on like that for hours. So it's not a pleasant experience.

And to bring it back to Eddie Lee Howard, he's gonna go through this and obviously they're gonna ask about the drugs. Now, when I was going through it, there's sort of a five year statute of limitations on. So if you had smoked pot when you were 21 and then you're applying at 28 or 29, you're fine. But in the 70s and 80s, Gordon, the agency's having to deal with the fact that basically everybody, everybody who's applying has had some experience with drugs that are technically federally illegal. So Howard

basically says, look, you know, I use drugs, but I don't have any problem. It's all youthful in discretion, much like my property crime. And it's not a big deal. Yeah. And it seems to have worked because Edward Lee Howard is going to get an offer to join the Central Intelligence Agency. So there with this kind of druggie hippie lefty now inside Langley itself. Let's take a break and then when we come back we'll look and see how it all comes crashing down for Edward Lee Howard and ultimately for the CIA as well. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. I'm David Oleshoge.

And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together, we're the hosts of Journey Through Time, where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the people who lived through it. Today we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London, one of the great pivotal events of the 17th century, one of the most important events in all of English and British history. It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13,000 houses, it decimated London, and caused 10 billion pounds worth of damage in today's money.

It even burned down the iconic St. Paul's Cathedral. The city was already devastated by the Great Plague, but rumors of foreign invasion led mobs to attack innocent foreigners on the streets. In this episode, we'll explore the chilling consequences of rumors, of fake news, of xenophobia. Problems that clearly are not unique to today. From desperate attempts to save their homes and belongings

to the struggle to assign blame, which turned deadly. This is the story of the fire as it was lived through by the people on the ground and the lasting impacts it left on the city. We've got a short clip at the end of this episode. Okay, welcome back. We are looking at the story of Edward Lee Howard, this drug-fuelled lefty who was joined. Well, maybe he wasn't a lefty, but a drug-fuelled lefty who has joined... Well, maybe he wasn't a lefty, but a drug-fuelled...

No, I like it. Let's stick with that as a label. And bizarrely, by January 1981, he has been taken on as an officer for the CIA. They'll take anybody, David. Slim Pickens in the late 70s for recruiting. So Howard joins in early 81, and Mary, his wife, is also hired later that year. She's a secretary initially, but then she becomes a support assistant for some operational work. So they can actually work together as a team.

Which is quite common, isn't it? Well, not common, but it happens occasionally because you can deploy them to places and they can work together. Real advantages to it. Yeah, for sure. So he's, Howard is picked initially for a desk job working on East Germany. But then in another, what seems, I guess, in retrospect to be a wild lapse in judgment on the part of the CIA's human resources mavens, he is slotted to go to Moscow, which is the pinnacle

of spy world. That's the biggest deal you can get, isn't it? That is the big leagues in the 80s. And we'll see in a moment why it actually makes some sense that he is chosen for the Moscow slot. But he also, in his first year, will go to the farm to complete what's now known as FTC, the Field Tradecraft Course. And we should explain the farm for those who don't know the farm is Spice School. It's where the CIA officers get trained. It's a remote location somewhere in Virginia, isn't it? Which I guess you've been there, you must have done.

I can't say. Are you allowed to talk about it? No, they don't let the analysts in. We're just banging on the gates, you know, with our pots and pans. It's a military base sit down. I can't say you're allowed to talk about it. No, they don't let the analysts in. We're just banging on the gates, you know, their pots and pans. It's a military base in the Virginia Tidewater. I think the best way to think about it is that it's basically a summer camp. That's the mental model I would have. It's a big facility, right? So yeah, there's homes on

the base. And there's a lot of facility, right? So there's homes on the base and there's a lot of buildings, right? No one locks cars. No one locks their houses. There are bikes everywhere. There's classrooms. There's a bar, which is called the SRB. I think it stands for like the student recreation building. Instructors actually live on homes on the river. They'll own boats. There's lots of deer everywhere. In the 80s, there would have been a remarkable amount of sex and drinking in this environment. And one of my good friends who went through the farm not so long after Edward Lee Howard said, the farm smells like freshman year,

Gordon. And Howard in this environment, which probably would have played to a lot of his appetites would have done courses in agent handling and recruitment, surveillance detection routes, how do you actually communicate clandestinely or covertly with assets? He said the breaking and entering was one of his favorite courses.

I think he does have, I think, a criminal undercurrent to him throughout much of his, much of his life. Disguises, how do you handle an interrogation? They've done paramilitary stuff back then. So jumping from planes, basic hand to hand combat, weapons trading, wilderness survival. It seems like Howard maybe didn't take some of that stuff. So point being is that even though this guy is kind of a dope, I think Gordon, it's fair to say,

he's going through a training course that is gonna give him a very unique set of skills, which will all be very important later in the story to come. So he graduates from FTC, he is slotted for Moscow, and he's gonna take over what was then called a clean slot, which will be an obscure job in the embassy that has never before been used as cover by

a CIA officer. And we'll again, hearken back to that Crossing the Iron Curtain series we did on Adolf Tolkochev, where we go into a lot of the detail on the tradecraft and the logic for these positions because basically, the idea here is the CIA wants someone like Howard who doesn't have three or four agency tours under their belt. They want to send those newer, fresher people to Moscow. The idea here being the Russians are much less likely to know or to suspect that they are CIA officers. You've got a much better chance of being able to do something like meeting an agent or clearing a drop because you're not known in any way to them. And it is one of the fascinating things, isn't it, that actually

young new recruits actually get given some of the most sensitive missions in MI6 or CIA, because they are the ones least likely to be known to the other side. So often someone in their 20s can be doing something which you'd expect to be given to someone who's got loads of experience, but actually, for reasons of cover, it's more useful to use these kind of clean skinned officers. Yeah, exactly. And in that series on Tokachev, we talk about how the officers, the CIA officers handling Tokachev,

initially, they had started with very seasoned kind of Russia focused officers. And over time, I think as the KGB is kind of figuring this out and the trade craft is getting tighter and tighter on both sides, the CIA is transitioning in this period to these kind of more rookie untested officers with very clean cover. Now, he and Mary will train as a team.

So when you go to Moscow or if you're slotted for Moscow, you're gonna get an additional kind of battery of training courses that'll go beyond that just standard FTC, the Field Tradecraft Course, right? So at the time, I think I have the acronym right, but it was something called the Denied Areas Operations Course. So basically, additional tradecraft training given to officers who were going to places inside the Soviet Empire. That phrase, Denied Area, indicates somewhere where you can't operate in a normal way. Because the enemies or your adversaries

counter surveillance and surveillance capabilities will be so good that you have to have special training. And that's what he's going to get. That's right. So he and Mary will train as a team in that Denied Areas Operations course. They'll be running surveillance detection and counter surveillance drills against the FBI in Northern Virginia. And also important little little marker here for what's to come, he's going to be training against some of the best trained FBI surveillance and counter surveillance teams, period. So he actually is gonna get really, really good

at detecting and potentially evading surveillance. He's going to receive the best possible training the US government can provide in those skills before he goes to Moscow. Which might come in useful later. Which might be useful later on in this story. We don't know. We're just speculating. Just speculating. Now, before he goes to Moscow, they run another round of evaluation to see if he can handle the psychological pressure, right? Because Moscow in this time period, it's like, you're basically going to expect that the KGB will have your

apartment wired up for sound, that you will have a surveillance team, a KGB surveillance team that is basically dedicated to you, and is following you constantly. There's no privacy, there's tons of pressure. And obviously, a lot of people might not do well in that kind of environment. Yeah, so he goes and he's basically sitting with agency psychologists, right? And again, the drinking and the drug use from his past or maybe from his present come up. So Howard, it seems in this period, has actually visited one of the agency's alcohol counselors

to talk about his behaviors. And I think it is worth a little bit, Gordon stepping back just to talk about the intersection of booze and the Central Intelligence Agency, because in this period, I think the agency is a pretty boozy place. Yeah, this has been a running theme through our podcast from the very earliest episodes, I think, is the extent to which- Well, right. Yeah, because in the Ron 53 ones, yeah, they were- It was pretty boozy. Kermit Roosevelt was Kermit was wasted while he was plotting the coup. And things have not changed by the early 80s. It sounds by Edward Lee Howard's day.

No, it's great because the alcohol counselor basically says, look, you don't have much of an issue. And, you know, you don't have you don't have a problem. And I think, you know, it is worth maybe some debate, like, does he actually have a problem? Or is it just sort of embedded in his life and is there a distinction between those things? But the alcohol counselor, there's this great quote where he tells Howard, look, you don't have a problem. I've got people who sit in the parking lot at headquarters drinking.

I've got one lady who filled her windshield wiper dispenser with vodka and rigged the line so the hose comes in the car. When she's caught in traffic, she can turn on the wipers and squirt herself, right? I mean, so this is the bar. He's like, you don't have a problem because you haven't rigged up your car so you can drink through your windshield wipers when you're in traffic.

That's right. And it, you know, it booze is everywhere, right? There's booze on the desks. There's a division chief at the time who keeps a bottle of cognac in a safe. I mean, that's not uncommon at all. It's literally everywhere. And of course it's wonderful because it's mixed

with the agency, of course, you know, keeping really important secrets. So these two things are sort of, they're blended together in this time period. Now, Howard has to be prepared to handle agents in Moscow. That means he's getting read in, probably not on names, but he's certainly getting a lot of information on these cases.

He's getting information on technical operations in Moscow, which need to be serviced regularly. Yep, bugging, wiretapping. There's a big case that he reads up on with the cryptonym GT Sphere, which is Tolkachev. Again, I don't think Howard knows Tolkachev's name, but he knows a lot about him. Probably knows his address.

Probably knows the sort of person he is, what kind of job he has. So enough where it'd be very damaging if Howard were to give that to the Russians and the couple he and Mary, and he goes through all of this. They get scheduled to go to Moscow in June of 83. Now they've just had a son who's been born in the spring of 83. I know Gordon, you don't like me talking about family life and personal life, but I just worked that in there. And all is looking good for the Howard family. But, but then, but then he is told that he needs to take a pre-departure polygraph. The situation for this is he gets sat in front of the hammer.

You read this to start this episode. Now, Howard, it seems isn't expecting this and isn't prepared for it. I do I do wonder where it comes from, because it seems like there must have been some sense that Howard was he was showing poor judgment. There's something wrong. Because he makes it sound like it comes out the blue, doesn't it? And that there's no reason for it. But actually, I mean,

what's amazing is there's the hammer, but he's it's four sessions he gets in about a month or so. Yeah, which is a lot. That's not normal. That means you're failing them over and over again. In one of these, Gordon, he admits to stealing $40 from a woman's purse on an airplane. So he's coming clean about weird behavior like that. But it's a weird story as well. Because it's that the reason was, he says, her baby, the woman's baby on the airplane was noisy and stopped him sleeping. So when she goes to the bathroom, he gets back at her by stealing $40 from her purse.

Now that I mean, is that is weird. I mean, we've all got a baby's on airplanes, but we don't kind of then go and steal from the person. I mean, you've never got annoyed at babies on airplanes, but we don't kind of then go and steal from the person. I mean, you've never stolen from someone on an airplane who's bothered you Gordon? No, I'm not. OK. This is clear. You're a professional, professional episode for David McCloskey. That is a very weird behavior. It's a very weird behavior.

And I think it does hint at something that the CIA leadership who sort of put him back under the light here for these polygraphs must have wondered about because obviously there's some petty thievery in the story, but it shows a startling lack of judgment on his part, doesn't it? Yeah. I agree. And a kind of unconstrained criminality that the agency frowns upon. He also admits to cheating during a training exercise, also frowned upon. So one of Edward Lee

Howard's tasks in Moscow is going to be to service a tap that the CIA maintains on senior Soviet leadership communications. Very sensitive program and very technically complicated. And one of the kind of human elements of it though, is that somebody, a Moscow station officer has to go into a manhole wearing a heavy backpack that has essentially the tapes that they can change out on this tap. And in order to do that, you've got to be able to go

down in into a manhole with the required weight, service it and come back out. And Howard apparently during the test run had filled his backpack with cardboard instead of the weight. So you get, again, you get this indication of like, he's just kind of cheating. It's definitely wrong. It's not like crazy wrong. He's kind of just a cheater. I love this fact CIA officials have also claimed that Howard admitted to breaking into vending machines at CIA headquarters. I mean, like, again, you've got to be pretty kind of weird to think I'm going to steal from a vending machine. Broke into the hot dog vending machine.

Yeah, I mean, is it really worth it for the sake of a free hot dog to risk your career? I mean, going back to your point, the polygraph is a kind of intimidation device. He's clearly, it seems like, suddenly admitting all kinds of stuff. He's kicked some stuff loose. Yeah, it's just all, you know, in these four polygraphs, all of it's suddenly coming out, because he's realising he's under that kind of pressure from it, from the continuous polygraphing. So, you know, there's all the drugs and alcohols as well. So it's clearly something is flagging up as a problem at this point. Well, and the polygraphs pick up the drug and alcohol use. And the the polygrapher seems to think that Howard is probably right, that Howard's been using drugs while employed by the CIA, which is a major no-no. And that would mean that he's no longer suitable for Moscow

or frankly, to even continue to work at the CIA. So Howard says that he is called in, he's fired, he's dismissed immediately. Now I find this part of his memory bizarre, but he says he had to turn in the keys to his car and he's escorted to the exit and then he had to take the bus home. So his like car is confiscated. That's a weird. It's a weird story. Company car. There's no. Yeah, there's no company. He doesn't need to be driving a company car in the early 80s. But it would make sense that he's dismissed immediately and that his badge is taken and they basically just, you get your box of stuff and leave the building and security takes you out, right?

So you're not taking anything else with you. It is extremely uncommon to fire people from the Central Intelligence Agency. We could debate whether Howard should have just been, you know, pulled from Moscow and put on a desk job somewhere, versus actually letting him go. But it does show the gravity of the situation. And I think how the agency had completely lost trust in him, which once that is done, you're done.

Yeah, because normally, I guess, if you screw up what you're relegated somewhere, because I go back to thinking about Matrokin, who we, you know, obviously did in a previous episode, when he kind of screws up or things don't go well from abroad, he's relegated to the archives, you know, he's put into being an archivist. So there are jobs which people can be put into if you're not going to go to Moscow. But instead, in this case, I guess maybe the extent of the personality issues and something, but everybody calls it this, it's the penalty box. And the idea is if you screw up, typically you get sent to some kind of unimportant, might not be the archives,

but you get sent to some unimportant desk job, typically at Langley. And you get kind of supervised for a couple of years to see, do you play by the rules? Do you not do anything insane? Can you handle it? Do you do your time? Okay.

And then after that you get another opportunity. If you've sort of done your penance, you get another opportunity to go out and do something in the field, right? It's the penalty box, but because of the deception, they can't trust him. And so he is, he's out. And I think what's, what's really interesting here though, Gordon, is he's not committed espionage yet, right? I mean, up to this point,

this is like a sad story of a guy who just couldn't quite hold it together inside the CIA and gets run out on the cusp of what could have been this life-changing tour in Moscow. It's a tragic story, to some degree, but he's not a criminal. Well, I guess, despite the maybe stealing from the woman on the plane and the vending machine crimes, he's not a serious criminal and he's not a traitor yet. But what he is, is angry. I mean, what he is, is angry, frustrated, feels like he's been denied, he's been screwed over, he's kind of fuming, consumed by this kind of bitterness. So I think there with Edward Lee Howard fired dramatically from the CIA, even his car keys taken away from him, he claims, let's stop. And when we come back for the next and final episode of this story, we'll see how that hatred of the CIA, which has come from this experience,

compels him to take the fateful step really of contacting who else? The Russians. And of course, Gordon, if listeners do not want to wait to find out how Edward Lee Howard takes that fateful step, they don't have to, You can go and join the Declassified Club at the rest is classified.com get early access to episodes, bonus episodes, Gordon Carrera's home address, everything you could possibly want. But if not, we won't hold it against you and the episode will be out as usual later this week. So we'll see you next time.

See you next time. It's David Olusyoga from Journey Through Time. Here's that clip that we mentioned earlier. If you look at all of the accounts of the fire at this point, as we get to the end of Sunday the 2nd, the first day, this fire is not behaving in any way the way fires traditionally did in London. And there is some people who've argued that it was becoming a firestorm, that the heat and the wind and the movement of air caused by the fire was feeding, it was becoming self-sustaining as it were. John Evelyn, who's a great writer and a diarist of this moment, he talks about the sound of

the fire. He said it was like thousands of chariots driving over cobblestones. There are descriptions in Peeps and elsewhere of this great arc of fire in the sky. I mean, imagine that everything around you is colored by the flames, yellows and oranges, and above you is this thick black smoke. This is a city you know, these are streets you walk, this is a place that's deeply familiar to you, and it looks completely otherworldly. It looks like another, like a sort of landscape

you've never seen before. People describe the fire almost as if it's supernatural. If you want to hear the full episode, listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.