The Rest Is Classified - Former Head of MI5: 7/7, Putin, and Al-Qaeda (Eliza Manningham-Buller)

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

What was it truly like inside MI5 and the heart of government as the 7/7 attacks unfolded? How did 7/7 expose a shocking blind spot for Britain's spy agency? And what lessons are still being applied two decades later to prevent future attacks? Listen as David and Gordon sit down with former Head of MI5, Eliza Manningham-Buller, to discuss her role in investigating the 7/7 bombings and how the attacks have stayed with her to this day. The full episode is available to members of the declassified club, sign up at www.therestisclassified.com⁠⁠⁠. ------------------- To sign up to The Declassified Club, go to⁠ ⁠www.therestisclassified.com⁠⁠. To sign up to the free newsletter, go to: ⁠https://mailchi.mp/goalhanger.com/tric-free-newsletter-sign-up ⁠ ------------------- Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ nordvpn.com/restisclassified It's risk-free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee ------------------- Order a signed edition of Gordon's latest book, The Spy in the Archive, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠via this link.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Order a signed edition of David's latest book, The Seventh Floor, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠via this link.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------- Email: [e-mail] Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@triclassified⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Assistant Producer: Becki Hills Producer: Callum Hill Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Exec Producer: Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For exclusive interviews, bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to series, first look at live show tickets, a weekly newsletter, and discounted books, join the Declassified Club at therestisclassified.com. Stop. Do you know how fast you were going? I'm going to have to write you a ticket to my new movie, The Naked Gun. Liam Neeson. Buy your tickets now. And get a free chili dog. Chili dog not included. It won't take long to tell you Neutral's ingredients. Vodka.

Soda. Natural flavors. So...what should we talk about? No sugar added? Neutral. Refreshingly simple. Hello listeners. We've got something very exciting for you today that we are absolutely thrilled about. What you're about to hear is an extract from this week's bonus episode, which is an interview that we conducted with Eliza Manningham-Buller, the former head of MI5,

in which, among many other fascinating topics, she discusses her face-to-face meeting with none other than Vladimir Putin in the immediate aftermath of the 7.7 bombings and the outrageous way that he behaved in some of the meetings afterward. Now, every week our members get exclusive access to bonus episodes just like this. So far we've had interviews with someone on the team who hunted Bin Laden. When Iran-Israel was all over the news, we spoke to a former CIA officer who worked basically just on the Iran target.

We've done episodes where we answered your questions, done film reviews including on Zero Dark Thirty, done a livestream, and coming up we've got interviews with two former, two former directors of the CIA. Members also get access to discounted book lists, special prize draws, early access to episodes, ad-free listening, and a whole lot more. So here's our interview with Eliza. If you want to hear the full episode, just sign up at therestisclassified.com. Mason- One of the things mentioned before we start recording is that you actually met Vladimir Putin

around this time, because he'd been in Scotland, hadn't he, for the G8 summit with the Prime Minister at Gleneagles, which this attack might have been timed for that summit. It's one of the possibilities, isn't it? But then you met him shortly afterwards, is that right? Yes, he was still in London and he came to Cobra and the senior person in the Met who was dealing with this and I gave him a briefing on the state of the investigation, which was at that stage pretty preliminary. And he was clearly hostile to me and said something like, it's the duty of people like you to stand between the terrorist and their victim and you failed. So it wasn't a very successful meeting. What did you say back?

I suppose it's hard to argue back. I was being very polite. So it wasn't a very successful meeting. What did you say back? I suppose it's hard to argue back. I was being very polite. Is that the only time you met him? Yes. What was your impression of him? Rather sinister looking eyes. Yeah. And I guess it wasn't that long after that, that he killed Alexander Litvinenko.

It was within a year. And I can't remember which year it was. He said that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union, which is sort of breathtaking comment when you think about it. Yeah. But it's amazing, isn't it? A year after basically coming down, talking to the prime minister, meeting you in Oktober, he's ordering polonium attack on the streets of London or involved in it.

So I always assume, I have no evidence of this, that it was such a risky thing to do in some respects, but I think they must have done it somewhere else and it not been noticed so that they could say it's safe to do this in London. We've done it somewhere else. Oh, I see you use Polonia. I don't know that, but I've often wondered that because otherwise it's quite a dangerous thing to do. I mean, there've been rumours that other people in Europe or even in Russia died with

symptoms similar to Lipanenko. I mean, there's been rumours that other people in Europe or even in Russia died with symptoms similar to Lipojenko. So the assumption is that they thought they could do it without it being traced. I think so. We also spent some time on the pod talking about 21.7, the couple weeks after 7.7, this other attempt using very similar explosive devices. We talked about it this way as maybe inside MI5 potentially being more of a shock in some ways, maybe a sense of, well, we didn't have the intelligence to prevent 7.7, but maybe we

should have been able to prevent 21.7. I'm curious for your thoughts on how it felt and whether it was maybe worse in some ways. Well, first of all, you always know you'll never prevent everything. I think the number that are prevented, where it's been made public, vastly outweighs those which are not. My recollection of 21-7 was a feeling of gloom. Nobody died. There was none of the tragedy of 7-7, but I do recall feeling that if this happened every two weeks, we would be really stretched to deal with it. Of course, all the perpetrators were eventually arrested and went to prison.

So to that extent, it was a successful operation. Even from the terrorist point of view, in fact, the detonators didn't work. It was fortunate. But it must have been a thought inside MI5, what if this is going to happen every two weeks? Exactly. And we were quite relieved when two weeks later in August, the date passed without anything happening. Without anything happening. Eventually it does look like there is a link back to Pakistan

and to al-Qaeda in both of those plots. But that took some time to become clear. I think that was after I retired that came. Al-Qaeda was an inspiration. It doesn't have to direct things. I mean, the fact that Mohammed Sadiq Khan went back to Afghanistan, clearly there was some connection there. But we had plenty of plots which were inspired by the narrative which Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were promoting. And if they can self-start, they didn't need to be directed. Will Barron And I think you've spoken previously that you think the Iraq war did contribute to that radicalization and that you'd said that before the war as well, I think, at MI5.

Dr. Sarah McAllister I think that before the war, the JRC had called the government, the Joint Intelligence Committee, that there'd be a likely increase in terrorism. It doesn't follow that because there might be an increase in terrorism, it's necessarily wrong to do what you're planning to do. But we know that it was a contributor because of the video wills we recovered, including the following year of the airlines plot operation of Oert, where people particularly instanced this. And yes, it was a contription. Yeah, because it was politically difficult at the time, I think, for government to acknowledge

that. Except that, I would point out that in 2006, I made a speech where I said this with the approval of the government. Because as you know, public servants don't make public speeches without the approval of the government. It would be chaotic. Was that that one in London at Queen Mary's? Yes. I remember being there for that one, a long time ago.

So I mean, as we kind of, I guess, come to the end of this section on 2005, how much do you think it changed MI5? I mean, what was the legacy of the attacks for it as an organisation? I'm not sure legacy is the right word because throughout its history, any organisation is affected by what it has to deal with. And when I joined the organisation, high to the Cold War, the main preoccupation was what the KGB and the Warsaw Pact allies were doing. And then preoccupation became terrorism and it moves on. We were, as I mentioned, already in the middle of a big expansion as

a result of 9-11. And I believe the organization is self-critical and constantly trying to get better at what it does. And so I think one of the implications and results of 7.7 is this, how can we get better? How can we give government greater confidence of covering more of the problem? How can we maximize the chances of preventing this happening again? How can we gear up? But anybody who's involved in intelligence knows that there's no such thing as 100% security. And it's deeply disappointing when this sort of thing happens, more than disappointing, it's appalling. But you know, there could be another attack next week, which has not been seen, has not been anticipated. And so the imperative to continue to try and improve, to adapt to the threat, to adapt new technology, to widespread encryption,

all these things are challenges. Thanks for listening. To hear the full episode, just sign up at therestisclassified.com.