The Rest Is Entertainment - Andy Burnham - Our First Indie-Kid PM?

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

Does Hollywood have a problem with censorship? What's the best post-pandemic movie? Is Andy Burnham, Britain's next potential Prime Minister, actually cool? Amazon MGM Studios has dropped their upcoming Luca Guadagnino film 'Artificial', with some speculating it's because the movie features an unflattering portrayal of OpenAI founder Sam Altman. Is this yet another example of tech billionaires censoring the media industry? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde discuss if studios can do anything to fight back? Keir Starmer is out. Andy Burnham is in (maybe). Richard discusses the former Manchester Mayor's 'indie-kid' credentials with a rifle through his record collection. Quentin Tarantino says there are no good movies post-pandemic. Is he wrong? We discuss the best films of the last half-decade, and why the world is so list obsessed. Recommendations: Return To Space (Netflix) Pompeii: Out Of Time (Trailer) Roy Keane Complaining About Wags (The Overlap) The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Lloyds. 250 years on and still backing the nation's aspirations. Lending is subject to status. You could lose your home if you don't keep up your mortgage repayments. Conditions apply.1996 average first-time buyer deposit based on Office National Statistics House Price Index data. Summer sale is here: get an annual membership for a third off with code SUMMER26. That's ad-free listening, every bonus episode, and full access to our exclusive members' series. Sale ends August 31st, so grab it before summer's over. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Adam Thornton & Lorcan Moullier Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Emma Jackson Exec Producer: Sam Psyk Filmed at www.westdigitalstudios.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Rest is Entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, fan mail is one of entertainment's strangest bargains. You send total devotion one way and the understanding that nothing may come back. Certainly in our day, you would write to a film star or a singer. I wrote to Howard Jones. And maybe three months later, a sort of signed photo comes back that's clearly a pro forma, you know, that you know Howard's never really looked at. Steve Martin used to have the performer sort of thing,

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That's like unbelievable. It's almost unprecedented that a company you're giving your money to will actually respond to you. Yeah. Are contactable in some way. This episode is brought to you by EasyJet. You must have had that moment when you're watching a film, but you completely tune out the plot and start daydreaming about the location instead.

The bright Mediterranean colours on screen suddenly make the British weather look even greyer. And sometimes it doesn't even take the technicolor. Put on a black and white thriller set on the Italian coast and I'll enjoy the mystery. But part of me is already working out which flight gets me nearest, preferably with less identity theft and bluer skies. For me, it is Greece. Once the rumours started that a certain star started musical was returning to the islands, that was all I needed. I was thinking about departures.

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me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everybody. Hi, Marina. How are you, Richard? I'm very, very well. Thank you. I've been away for a week, which is absolutely lovely, but I'm delighted to be back. Yes. To talk about show business and billionaires. What are the billionaires up to? What are the billionaires up to? Yeah. Because we are going to be talking about artificial, which is almost completed film about Sam Altman, that Amazon have just dropped for reasons. They'll have a good reason. I'm sure. I'll have a really great reason for doing that. We're also going to talk about we're about to have a new prime minister, as you know. What are we? We're recording this on Monday. Yes, I believe that today we will see the great drama addicted, drama afflicted British public will see that lecten for the seventh

time in a decade. But please don't panic because we are not going to talk about politics. We're going to ask the question, is Andy Burnham cool? But we're also going to say can any politician ever be cool? Yeah. But via his entertainment choices. We are not going to be talking about his monetary policies. We're going to be talking about his favorite albums. That would be a help. Right. And we're also talking about, Quentin Tarantino said there've been no good films recently. He said there've been no good films since the pandemic,

which sparked a bunch of lists and things saying that they're happening. What about these ones? And we're going to talk a little bit about his comments, but a lot about the phenomenon of those lists, those cultural lists that you probably see a lot more than you ever used to. And I like the fact that you're saying that, like, it's a bad thing. So I should just add I would also give him everyone my top three films since the pandemic. Oh my God.

I know I have to do it. this. Okay, I will do this too. Yes. Sam, Altman, Amazon, a lot going on. Okay, let's, we have to do a little bit. Who is Sam Altman? Sam Altman is. Do you know what? Who is Sam Altman? Exactly. He has the cold, dead eyes of the boyfriend who joins in the search for the missing girlfriend in my view. But he is also, like a dislikable Elon Musk. He is, I think, potentially the worst, which really matters in, in that particular group. But he's the Open AI, sort of chief executive, Open AI, obviously their most famous product is CHAPGT, but they have various other systems. Remember, it started Open AI as a not-for-profit, sort of weirdly idealistic, altruistic enterprise.

And in 2016, Sam Altman was saying anyone familiar with the 1930s, it's absolutely chilling watching Trump in action. Anyway, by the time of the second inauguration, there he was in Oligarchs Row. Open AI is no longer a non-profit. It is a rapacious capitalist entity. They've accepted a number of defence contracts. The even Anthropic said, we can't in all conscience do this. Even anthropic.

Yeah. Anyway, so that's who Sam Mortman is. And the film is called artificial. And it is the story of, these are often quite helpful if you're trying to dramatize anything. There's five days in 2023 where Sam Mortman is ousted at Open AI. And then he comes back. Spoiler of that.

Spoiler alert. If you're catching up with the last few years on box set, I'm sorry. This film is directed by Luca Guadino, who did Call Me By Your Name, Challenges. He's absolutely the real deal. Yeah, real deal. Couldn't be more of a real deal of a director at the moment. Yeah. It's written by Simon Rich, who's a former Sinal Rides, who's done various other things. It stars Andrew Garfield as Sam Wartman. Also, I mean, the cast is a joke. It's not, it's also Monica Barbaro, Yuri Borisov from Anora. Ike Baronholtz

As Elon Musk I have to see this Ike Baron Holtz if people didn't know him he's the guy who plays South Saperstein on the studio So you'll he's one of this And he doesn't look Unadjacent to Elon Musk

I'd never noticed it before But the second they said he's playing I can't wait to see it Okay Jason's to Schwartzman Cooper Hoffman Sasha Mamet Chris O'Dowd Mark Ryland

It's sort of long and strong this thing And it's nearly finished It's at a sort of screening stage Long and Strong That's a cast list description. Yes, like in a bridge hand. But it's...

Yeah, like the Man City bench. Yeah. In terms of what happens, Amazon has dropped it. Amazon were making this film. You know, I don't know what it's cost, something like 40 million. 40 million, they reckon. And the decision has supposedly been made to drop it. They've said it might be better suited to another distributor.

And so Jeff Bezos, who of course is the ultimate boss of Amazon, has a friendship with Sam Altman. I think Sam Altman was at the Bezos Sanchez wedding. Is that correct? Yeah. Which we were not invited to. So they are friends. So, huh, it's almost like something else is going on here.

The decision's been made by Mike Hopkins, we should say. He's the head of Prime Video in Amazon MJM Studios. So can I ask you a question that we're all asking? Why would you finance a $40 million Luca Guadernino movie? Why would you make the whole thing? why would you get that stedder cast together and then why would you, just before it's about to start, you know, playing at festivals and stuff, why would you suddenly drop it?

Well, I mean, I suppose it comes down to who you want to believe. They think it would be better suited to another distributor. But what we have to say is that Amazon has a deepening relationship with open AI. A few months ago they did a huge deal with Open A.I. All the deals with Open AI involve people giving Open AI billions. It's like one of the weirdest things about modern life. Amazon basically giving a 50 billion investment to Open AI. But last year they did a, I think, sort of 30 or 40, but 38 billion cloud partnership.

And so, yes, I mean, it doesn't look great, does it, that they've got this far? The story is they'd obviously commissioned this movie. They'd seen the movie. And word from inside the Amazon campus, it was actually it was a lot darker. than we were imagining. And certainly the people who've seen it, they say the portrayal of Sam Altman and Elon Musk are particularly...

I mean, brilliant, it's what people are saying, but particularly bleak and dark. And so Amazon saw this and decided that maybe... Because of course, $40 million is the budget of the movie. So you're now at the stage where Amazon go, well, we're going to put this on our platform. We're going to spend the marketing money, which could be another $40 million.

So you're at that... But they're going to put it in cinemas first because this is clearly, this would have awards chances, as we know, this is a sort of... But if you're Amazon at that moment, this is a moment where if you can press the Jettison button, you are not paying for the second half of that. And more importantly, if you have relationships with Open AI, which clearly they do, you are not having to use your platform to constantly promote this thing. And you're not having to have Amazon branding behind Eit Baron-Haltz and Andrew Garfield

sitting there talking about the movie. Some people have seen an early draft of this, so we should say a little bit more. It's obviously not a sort of hallmark him to Sam Hortman and people who've read early drafts, which will have changed. But as you say, if it's got dark out of it, apparently portrays him Sam Hortman as sort of intensely manipulative, a schema, a sort of power hoarder, monomaniac, etc. And there are lots, obviously there are lots of walk-ons for other people, even including people like the Microsoft CEO. Satchin Adela and I mean there's just no way this can look good at all and we have to think of it in the context of everything that has been happening recently first of all you know you think about that movie The Apprentice that starred Sebastian Stan as a sort of young Donald Trump and

Jeremy Strong that was going to be 100% in awards conversation but it really struggled to get distribution really struggled even though it was quite clearly going to pick up some awards and it was nominated for it and it was going to be in all sorts of awards. conversation. The problem is not with the creators. And a lot of people may think, these people, these guys define our age. These guys are the extraordinarily powerful. The problem is about them being tackled at a subject is absolutely not with writers and creatives. I personally know a number of people who have projects about these guys in development. And there are film and TV projects about the tech barons in development, all of them. You know, we do know that the social

Reckoning is coming out. Yeah. Which is the follow-up to the social network. What Mark Zuckerberg did next? Yes. And the trailer's out, and that's coming out in October. Aaron Salkin, who has written and directed this time as well, said that, you know, we haven't heard of anyone except their lawyers saying, just be careful. That's from Mehta's lawyers. But we're yet to see any films about Peter Thiel in production.

Even, you know, he's extremely litigious. But he actually does literally believe in the Antichrist. So for me, you know, seems like worth a shot at. covering him creatively. This is a man whose companies are being knit tighter and tighter into the apparatus of a number of supposedly democratic states. I know so many people who've had projects

and it was really interesting. After the election of Trump in 2024, a lot of those people, a lot of these companies, the big companies, call those people who have those projects and said, don't worry, we're still going to carry on with them. Okay, I haven't seen any of those projects come out. They are not even greenlit.

I don't, as far, you know, they're not. And a lot of those people, the studios are going to, and these are not sort of small spec script writers. These are people with big overall deals who are tackling the big subjects, the big people of the age. People are saying to them, have you got anything that isn't about, you know, Elon Musk or Peter Deal or whoever it is? Have you got a buddy cop movie?

Have you got something different? And it's really interesting. And that we've seen a few things. We saw Jesse Armstrong's mountain head, but that wasn't about specific, you know, it was about that tech bros. They did it very quickly to be eligible for M.U. Consideration of various things like that. But it's hard to say now that many of these things are coming to light. And here is one that has got all the way to that stage with an unbelievable, impeccable sort of creative team behind it. And they're just putting it out. Can I present a counterpoint? A very brief counterpoint,

which is we didn't used to do these fast turnaround movies about people who were still active quite so much. It didn't used to be a thing. There is an interesting moral place where writers are if they are writing about these people and these people who are heavily lawyered as well. And I don't think it's shocking that there aren't ten films a year about Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, I understand why writers want to write about them because they're unbelievable bogey men and they are doing something extraordinary that's never been done before and they are doing it in plain sight and yet a lot of what they're doing doesn't seem to have crossed over. But it is an unusual situation to be in.

And if I were a business person, which, you know, I am not. You're not terrible at it. And I was, you know, I think it comes down to this. If Amazon had buried this, that would be a shock. If Amazon had funded this and buried it and said, no, well, it's, oh, me. movie and we're not going to show it, but no one else can as well. That would be one thing for them to say, you know, they're holding the house and going, we have a deep personal relationship with the person this film is about. They're not saying that, though. Oh no, but of course

I mean. But it's quite obvious. I mean, don't you care how history judges you? You just paid 75 million for an abysmal to Brett Ratner and Melania for an abysmal documentary about her, but you can't put this out. Well, I mean, I'm sorry. What do you think history's going to say about you? Because I would be too embarrassed to do it. Because they're not really a movie company. I mean, 75 million, 40 million. I mean, it's zero to them, essentially. It's James Bond a movie franchise because they have that.

I think they are a movie company. That's the interesting one. It'll be interesting to see who the baddie is and the new James Bond movie. I can tell you who won't be. He will not be Chinese or North Korean. He will not be because the executives are the craven people. It is not the creatives. But it is interesting that they are allowing the filmmakers to take it elsewhere.

And it's had a huge amount of publicity, a lot more publicity than it would have done if they had shown it anyway. And, you know, it's been shown across L.A. for the last week or so. It's interesting who is passing on it. Because a lot of people have passed on it if you believe the trade papers, A24 have passed on it, Netflix have passed on it. So whatever Amazon is worried about showing Sam Orman in that light or Elon Musk in that light, other people seem to be as well.

Because people are saying it's not a bad movie, but almost everybody is passing. on it and that's almost more depressing. Yeah, I think what's, to find another positive, these movies can be very influential. If you look at that portrait of Mark Zuckerberg from the social network, the first film, it was just incredibly influential

as to how people saw him from then on. And he would dispute the account that actually the way it was created was born out of a night of incredible misogyny and rating women and all of this sort of stuff. But that's stuck. And if anything, it's sort of miraculously shaded in something even darker now, which I'm sure we'll see in the second film. But I think these films are influential.

I think it's more depressing that they're doing this publicly. I really do. I think that they become shameless. This is just the way things are now. We've seen all sorts of cavings to the Trump administration. And we're seeing just a much more, a massively increased tension between media companies and the tech firms and editorial independence, everywhere from news to whatever. It will be interesting to see other test cases.

Like, you know, what if someone who's traditionally regarded as brave or whatever, someone at HBO comes up with something and it will be a test for Casey Blois at the top of HBO to say, oh, we're going to do this. And, you know, how will the Ellisons feel about this or that? And this will be a test of the new form of ownership of Warner's by Paramount Skydance or whatever and by the Ellisons. will they cave? Will they do it? It's very difficult. People are caving to tech because tech is becoming increasingly woven into all of their systems and they can't really exist without it. And they've all

doing deals with OpenAI. And we talked about TBPM, which you know is a podcast I like, but it's basically been bought now by OpenAI as a form of PR arm for themselves. And I think that editorial independence is being eroded all the time. And this is for me, The worst, I almost prefer it if they try to do it, you know, shamefully in the background. Just saying openly that they're not doing it, sends a chill win for me. What happens, though, in this situation, if you are not able to go through these big main channels to make movies like this or to make art like this about the people who are running the world, one would hope that there's enough countercultural money or enough money that has not been tied up by open AI or people who are bending the knee to Trump, one would hope there's enough of that money.

What counterculture? I mean, what counterculture? I don't see that there is one. Yeah, but there never is one until the culture changes. That's the point. I don't think there is a financial counterculture that is very, very hard. Why was it so hard for the apprentice to find a distributor in it? I mean, it was an absolute uphill struggle for that.

And it wasn't particularly expensive. It was very good. And they just couldn't seem to find anyone to take it on. But even as you're saying that, all I'm thinking is, well, there's a gap in the market. and there's a very, very lucrative gap in the market. That's all I think. You might not be doing these through the legacy studios where something's costing you 75 million,

but you can certainly, you know, if, you know, Bloomhouse wanted to do a horror. They should do a, they should do a tack baron's horror. But, you know, that feels to me like such an easy thing to do. I think when everything gets so calcified, when a culture gets so calcified, and so in the hands of a very few people, which is exactly what's happened now,

That's when the fight back begins. I always think that because creative people never change how they're creative. Creative people never change the sort of stories that they want to tell. It's just that at the moment someone's not going to give them $40 million plus another $40 million in marketing to tell that story. So creativity is still creativity. It will find a way through the dam. The water finds its way through the concrete. And I just think that there's always a reaction to these things.

There is always a reaction, but you often have to live through a period of censorship or, you know, self-censorship first. And I worry that we're sort of living through that period. And we clearly are, you know, it's just a different calculus when people are talking about, oh, we can't make this project because of our cloud partnerships. I mean, this is something we haven't been thinking about before. But you can see it across all sorts of things. You can see it across late night, across news, across now in cinema. Lots of people are just stepping back or saying, well, we won't do that, we'll do.

because these firms have become so completely powerful within their own business. Yeah. Not just like they're outside people in the culture that we might not want to offend. They're so knit in to the delivery of your services that you don't really have another choice. Yeah. Or they feel they don't. And bullying works. Yeah.

And not even bullying works. Sometimes they're complicit. You know, that's the even scary a bit of it. But I do. I'm an appalling optimist and I have to apologize for almost weekly on this podcast. Sorry, everybody. But, you know, I do think that that kind of last swish of the dinosaurs' tales sometimes is a real fill-up for creativity and for where we go next in culture. And we live at these absurd sort of end times that we live in as regards money and tech and art.

I just don't think it can last. I think something else comes out of it that's interesting and intriguing. And if I was a 21-year-old at home at the moment who's a filmmaker or a writer or a writer or, a creator of any sort, well, I know what I'd be thinking and I know what I'd be creating and that's the next generation of art that we're going to get. I agree, and I do think that there are exciting things, or we can see already happening that to co-op the language of these tech firms, the disruptive. There's some really interesting disruptive creators in all sorts of different parts of the

creative industries, but I'm not sure that they're politically disruptive so far. Maybe that will come, but I think they're creatively disruptive and I think they're doing all sorts of other interesting things, but I don't see it coming in a sort of political way. And I think that that is, hopefully that will follow. But we are 100% definitively in an era where American popular culture is under the yoke of about five people, all of whom are billionaires and all of whom have quite thin skins. Yes.

And it's interesting that so many people are moving away. We should do something on China maxing in a future episode because lots of the cultural, the cultural pull is moving past even. somewhere like Seoul and it's just moving east. And I think that lots of interesting stuff or just compelling stuff for young people, Gen Z, but particularly Gen A, is now coming from China.

And I think that... But of course, because of all this nonsense. Where, of course, they have no censorship. So, yeah. So, you're right, there's plenty of course for optimism. Oh, the world. It never gets any better, really, does it? Well, you know.

Yeah. I suppose medical science advances. Yes. Yeah, that's good. You know, and AR will be very helpful in that, I'm sure. Should we go for a break? Let's. And after that, we're going to be talking about whether Andy Burnham is cool or not.

We're not going to be talking politics. We're going to be talking music. This episode is brought to you by the Lloyd's 5K house deposit. Lloyd's are offering a 5K house deposit, which was last seen in 1996. What are your entertainment memories of the 1990s? I feel guilty talking about the 990s. I feel guilty talking about the 1990s because you look back and it was such a golden era. We'd never had it so good and we didn't even realise because we were young and we just thought we were entitled to it all.

We absolutely took it for granted. Yeah, Brit Pop was absolutely in its pomp oasis playing to a quarter of a million people. You had Blur and Swede and Pop, I'm so sorry. Squice Girls, amazing movies at the cinema, train spotting. I mean, it felt a time of absolute optimism. But at the time, you just assumed that was the way that the world was going. But a very British type of optimism. Yeah.

But part of the optimism. of course, is that mortgages were more affordable and that is what Lloyd's is dealing with right now. Yep. Last seen in 1996, Lloyds are now offering 5K deposit mortgages to first-time buyers. Search 5K, first-time buyer. 1996 average first-time buyer deposits based on O&S data. Subject to status, your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up repayments. Conditions apply. Welcome back, everybody. Now, listen, we move on from that fraught first half to ask a simple question, which is are we about to have our first indie kid prime minister?

Marina for our overseas listeners, interesting developments in British politics at the moment. Interesting and strangely familiar? Yes. We're going to have a new prime minister. Yeah. We're recording us on Monday, but as events advance in due course,

we will have a new prime minister, and unless something absolutely clatter of glymere happens, that prime minister will probably be Andy Burnham. It will. We're not going to talk about politics. Don't worry about that. I have a very specific thing that I wanted to explore, which is

Andy Burnham cool. Now, I know you don't think anyone's cool, so actually what I'm going to say... No, that's not true. You know that's not true. Are we about to have our first indie kid prime minister? We've had all sorts of prime ministers on desert island, this before and political leaders. Cameron went on it. He chose a Smith song. He chose this charming man. He chose a killer song. He chose a radio head song,

the fake plastic trees. But he's not... He wasn't an indie kid. I mean, those are the ones you would choose if, you know, you'd sat around with an advisor and decided which songs to choose. He's talked about loving Eton rifles by the jam as well, which must, I mean, imagine being Paul Weller and hearing that. Boris Johnson went on, he just pressure dropped by the clash. I know somebody who saw David Cameron at a party once, like sort of Pogo going to Tangor Malice.

Oh, really? Sorry, you're just not allowed to do this. I know, it's so, yeah. Your band off this? Kemi Badek not recently went on Desert Island Disse. She had a couple of songs from Hamilton. She said, Don't Stop To Do You Get Enough by Michael Jackson. Weirdly, she had sunscreen by,

Baz Luhrmann as well as one of her desert islandists. But anyway, Andy Burnham, Andy Burnham makes quite a lot of this kind of, I'm just, you know, this indie kid from the north. Is he posing or is that for real? Now, my evidence is he did a wonderful piece. I don't know if people know the quietest. The very fact that he did this piece with the quietest at all

tells us already he's got bona fides. If you are looking for something to subscribe to the quietest, it's very, very, very good on music and culture. And it just introduces new things all the time they did curated playlists. Anyway, they do a feature called Baker's Dozen where people choose their favourite 13 albums. So all the evidence were going on for Andy Burnham

is his 13 favourite albums and the story he tells on each one. Shall we go through a few of them and see if Andy Burnham is actually cool or not? I've made my mind up already. But we'll go through them. He was born in the same year as me, Andy Burnham. And the further you go down this list, the more obvious that becomes.

He's got Beatles in there. He's got Smith's Hatford of Hollow, which was the year zero of turning from a kid who likes Culture Club into being an indie kid. That's the album that did it for everyone. Andy Burnham's got that on his list. But then he goes to for, this is where I start thinking, oh, this guy's for real. He goes to Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues, their second album, which I think is one of the greatest albums ever written.

He says he wants a sickbed of Kualaum played at his funeral, which is, I'd say, So it's a bold choice, Andy, but you absolutely go for it. But the definitive thing with rum sodomy in the lash by the Pogues is if you are Andy Burnham's special advisor, you wouldn't say, oh, and by the way, at number three, I put rum sodomy in the lash by the Poges. Oh, no, no, I believe all of this. There's no quite, you can't talk about them in the way that he has talked about them without absolutely it being completely real and authentic. We're going to come later to whether even things that are authentic can seem inauthentic in the world of politics. but I 100% believe all of this. He goes for the stone roses.

I mean, Andy Burnham could not be more northwest if he tried. He's from Liverpool was an MP and Lee was mayor of Manchester. So I think very cleverly, almost uniquely, managed to have a foot in both of those camps. He's created this kind of overarching northern identity that somehow managed to bring them together. Yeah. Imagine if you'd done that for a southern identity. Imagine how much the country would absolutely hate it. him. They go, this guy, he goes, you know what, I'm a little bit Guilford and a little bit

Godalming. That's me, and that's Andy. So when he talks about the Stone Roses, which is his fourth album, which again, you can't be an indie kid in any way whatsoever and not have the first Stone Roses album on there. But he talks about how he used to go to the Hacienda. Yeah, but on the Thursday, not the Friday. The Thursday, which was student night. Saturday was like the big rave night. And he says, you know, I was very much Thursday night. I was a larger guy. This said, did he take ecstasy? He said, you know what? I genuinely, I'm not being a politician, I genuinely didn't. We are about to get our first indie kid, prime minister, I think.

It'll be a while before we get our first rave prime minister. But that'll be next. But you said, he said... I think you'll find David Cameron went to a few parties. Yeah, listen. I wouldn't dignify him with rave. There's no more indie statement than I saw the fall at the Hasseender. It's absolutely impossible.

He also said, and I don't think, there's two words in this put together, I don't think a single British Prime Minister has ever said before. And that is, he said, talking about the Hacienda, there would be a few members of in spiral carpets hanging around. I don't think anyone who's ever been British Prime Minister has ever referenced in spiral carpets before. He also talks about meeting Tony Wilson when he was up in Manchester and how they developed quite a close relationship.

And Tony Wilson, before Andy Burnham was the King of the North, was probably the King of the North. And I saw Andy Bernard described the other day as Harold Wilson, meets Tony Wilson, which I thought was very nice. He then goes, I mean, here's where we know for a fact that we are going to have an indie kid prime minister. His next album is George Best by the Wedding Present. And again, to find out the age of a tree, you cut it down and count the rings.

If you want to know the age of a certain man or woman in this country, and they say one of my favorite albums is George Best by Wedding Present, then they were born in 1970. You can almost almost to the month work it out. By the way, a great album. He then goes on to talking of great albums, The Lars by the Lars. Liverpool band, but to be someone who recognizes that the Lars aren't just there, she goes, and to recognize they release one of the great debut albums in the history of music, we should do like a bonus on The Lars because they are amazing.

Billy Bragg. Yes. That's an interesting choice. William Bloke, the album he's gone for, and he says Upfield is his favorite song. Because, I mean, he's very polarizing. And again, if you were Andy Burnham's. Spad. You'd be saying, oh, I don't know.

Are you sure about Billy Bragg? But one of our most tender and beautiful songwriters. Yeah. I think. You might have thought, chuck one out for the Corbynite. Yeah, exactly. Radiohead, OK, Computer. All the way through this interview in The Quietus, it's so good.

Because he's saying, yeah, I saw Radiohead at Glassmer, he said, and it's just after I lost the leadership election to Corbyn. And you realise that this music, which is sort of the music of your kind of teen years or 20s or, you know, literally these people who've been in the middle of, like, the hugest stories in British politics are sitting there listening to Carmer Police. And you're thinking, wow, I mean, those lyrics must hit a bit different if you're trying to run the country. Strokes he goes for, there's a few more modern things,

Big Thief capacity, which is an amazing album, there's New Order. But the one I really, really loved is the Cortina's and Falcons, so the Cortines are a huge, you know, one of those bands that the North absolutely, they like the gods of the north. And he said when he was running for Manchester Mayor, him and Steve Rotherham, who was mayor of Liverpool, they went to see the Cortinas.

And he said, there's this song where he says, the lyrics are, I'm only a paper boy from the North West, but I can scrub up well in my Sunday best. And he said, that really felt like me, because I was, you know, that sounds like me. So we were sort of belting this song out and it really made us feel proud to be from the north.

And, you know, this is great guitar music. But that is from a song called, this interview is about two years ago. That's from a song called Take Over the World. And Andy Burnham said, I love that song and it brings back memories. But sadly, I didn't go on to take over the world. Well, look at you now, Andy. Well, this is a suggestion that you can ever be cool as a politician.

Yes. It's an impossibility. I think it is a... You can be charismatic and that really... And, you know, someone like David Ransomans written really interesting on politicians who are sort of required to be a form of celebrity but also still be trustworthy. It's interesting, actually, when I was talking about... talking to James Kandahistorium about people, celebrities becoming politicians.

What we talked about, one of the things we talked about is that, because we cycle through these people so quickly, our politicians, celebrities are these kind of great constants in public life. And so in many ways, they are seen as more trustworthy than politicians. And what Andy Burnham has actually genuinely tried to do is create an outsider status for himself, which, by the way, I think coolness almost all, it's very, very hard to be cool when you are the figurehead of a system. For sure.

You know, being an outsider is cool. It involves not having to compromise and to be able to dream impossible dreams, whereas the politics, I suppose, is the art of the possible, and all about compromising. So you can't really... It can't be cool, but one thing you can do,

and again, you talk to James about it. One thing that is absolutely key is can you be authentic? And I thought the interesting thing going through this list is, so Andy has this kind of image of himself as, you know, oh, I'm just a normal guy and I drink lager and this is sort of music I like.

This interview in the quietest and this list in the quieters absolutely 100% screams to me authenticity. I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting. And actually it's quite a niche thing. And we're talking about it because we love all those things. We love music and things like that. The more mainstream things that politicians will try and even authentically attach themselves to,

I mean, if you look at Kirstama, he plays five-side football once a week. He really loves. loves football. He is a completely authentic football fan. He cannot basically hardly even talk about football because it's football is well. Because we're in the middle of the World Cup is really interesting. Cass Horowitz, who is a sort of comms guru, he was a comms guru for Rishi Sunak. He did a post on LinkedIn just before the World Cup started saying politicians, please just don't post about the World Cup this summer. And he said that talking about football has become the ultimate at high stakes authenticity trap

because the public immediately assume it's a calculated focus group play to neutralise your elite narrative and prove that you are a regular person. And it's really, honestly, any time, even politicians who absolutely love football, you used to have much more,

just try and stay away from it to some degree because it just always looks like bandwagoning. And, as strange as it may seem, we literally do not know, need to know, or certainly don't care what cabinet minister thinks about football, I noticed Farage was doing. He is, by the way, I want to talk about him actually

because I think he's in terms of a, his cultural hinterland, I believe it is, I mean, I talk about the tech. Yeah, I've talked about the tech barons not having one. He has absolutely nothing. I once interviewed him and just honestly for something to, I think I've talked about this in the podcast before, but I'm going to mention it again because I think it is so weird. I said to him, what's your favorite, you know,

what's your favorite film? And he literally just couldn't, what was clear is not that he couldn't think what his favorite film would be or what be a good film to be his favorite film for to be his favorite. He couldn't think of the title of a film. And in the end, he said, you know, the person, and then he remembered four weddings and a funeral,

but for some reason he obviously didn't want to say that. So he said, you know, the guy who did that, so I said, Richard Curtis, I was like, Love Actually. I was like, yeah, love actually. I was thinking, there's just no way that your favorite film is Love actually. There's just no way. But also, the fact that you couldn't even think of it.

I mean, just say The Great Escape or Landbusters or something. Bridge on the River Quiet. Yeah, come on. That's easy. He literally couldn't think of it. I believe he has zero. cultural hinterland at all. I can't imagine. I think there's some discourse about like why is Neon Desert Islanders? What would he authentically choose? You're telling me that guy ever listens to music,

ever watches anything. He doesn't exist. He doesn't have that. If you cannot name a film, and then you literally can't think of the name of a film, it's ridiculous. And so for him, I think, the idea of having, whereas for someone like Obama, now Obama you knew had a mega cultural hinterland and they became sort of curators, even during the time he would, put out stuff of what he was listening to. Was he cool? I don't know. I mean, he was probably the person who most people thought, as a politician,

had something closer to cool than anyone else. If he isn't cool, and I don't think he quite is, then it is impossible for a politician to be cool. So his curated music lists are always extraordinary. I think the most recent that has Kendrick Lamar, Chapel, Rowan, Rosalia, the burner boys on there.

I mean, you know, absolutely. But again, so beautifully curated, you kind of think, oh, is there more than one hand in this? I don't know. There's a little bit of everything. I quite like Andy Burnham's list because there's sort of not a little bit of everything. No. It's really just kind of, no, this and then this, and then this.

But, yeah, I think that if Barack Obama is not cool, then no one's ever going to be cool and be a politician. Some people found him cool all the way through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, of course, once the, you know, bits that people couldn't get quite so much on board with, like the extra judicial killings and so on have faded into the background and worse has replaced it or whatever, then

people have a sort of glow about him. But he could deliver, he could deliver lines brilliantly. So when he did things like the White House correspondent's dinner and he would do, it was like watching a stand-up to obviously, he was a great public speaker, but I remember there was one time when I think he did literally just draw the mic at the end of it and you're like,

okay, that's really extremely professional and well done. But I do think, and again, this is not talking about politics at all, but I do think that the one thing you need in the current media climate is authenticity. And I just thought it was interesting looking at that list of albums and thinking, well, certainly in this area, he has an authenticity, he has an ability to talk with an authenticity. He has, and don't forget, some people just aren't authentic. Some people would never find out who they are. And this is a guy who does seem to have a

good idea of who he is. And if you can get that across, then it will serve him very well. The Lars versus the bond markets. I can't wait to find out who wins. I do you know what? genuinely, I put my money on the Lars. Knowing Lee Mavers, I think I can absolutely see it. Actually, on that album, I owe you. It's a lot about monetary policy in there. If you only know the last from, there she goes, then my God, have a listen to that whole album. It's just a work of genius. He disowned it. Lee Mavers, he just kind of, he went through every great producer there was and just said, no, this is all terrible. This is all, this is not what I'm hearing on my head. And even now says that, the album is awful. But he is wrong about that.

No, it's an extraordinary record. And that authenticity means I can definitively answer the question. Are we about to have our first indie kid prime minister. Yes, I believe we are. He has all the bona fides. He has the credentials. I'm not, by the way, making a valid judgment and saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying as a 1980s and 90s indie kid myself, he is definitely one. It's a true thing.

It's a true thing. Okay, moving on for Mandy Burnham. Quentin Tarantino, I love it when he pops up. Yes. Has made another foray into the discourse to say that there have been no good movies. This was a couple of weeks ago. He said there are no good movies since the lockdown since the pandemic. And he said they were all defined movies since then by flaws,

implausibilities, audience pandering, miscast performers or just plain stupid shit. Okay. I personally love that he's out there talking about it. I love all the positions he takes. He always sparks something and we'll get on to what he sparks in a minute. He does always spark something. He, you know, he's always said I'm only going to make 10 films. I personally wish he'd do more.

I absolutely love it. You know what he's doing next though, which I could not be more here for. Yes, a play, right? Yeah, he's going to write and direct a West End farce set in the 1830s called the Popping J Cavalier. Yeah. And he's doing it with Sonia Friedman, the fantastic theatre producer and also Sony. So there's some suggestion that Sony pictures, there's some suggestion that, you know,

if it takes off, then maybe he'll turn that into his final film. And it's for real. And they're doing table reads at the moment as we speak. So it is definitely for real. Oh, I know. I literally will, I am all over that, okay? And I love that he takes these strong positions, whatever you think about him. And he certainly, he's, he put stuff out there.

I don't think he's right. I mean, you know, look at what's happening in horror. There's been lots of good things. By the way, he doesn't think he's right either. He doesn't think he's right. It's just some stupid shit, he said. Yeah, exactly. But Jen said to go into the theatres.

We're having a sort of correction from franchise IP in the way that all of these things he would like. And I think that streaming in a way, TV and obviously lots of people migrated to television, but television is now so expensive, paradoxically, that a series is going to cost, I don't know, what, 120 million, you've got to make lots of them. In a way, people, I think it's an interesting time in a time of flux, and I disagree that there have been no good films since the pandemic. Do we have to do this top three, which I do want to do.

Well, I've got a top three of my favorite films since the pandemic, yes. Do you have a top three? I do one as a bit of a cheat, but yes. Cheat, how? Well, listen. You'll see. We'll get to it. Okay, number three. Okay. Number three.

You see, I have to say the numbers now. Number three. Yes, absolutely don't trust you. Stephen now is Nope. Which, it had a terrible title, but it's really, it's, it is in the horror genre. It's Jordan Peel. It's actually really good. And it's a shame.

It's not completely what it is, but it's all about us not being able to look away even when it's dangerous. It's really, it's really good. And so it epitomizes that. number two, I really absolutely loved the souvenir part two. And this is a bit of a small one because lots of people won't have seen this. But if you haven't seen Joanna Hogg's work, the souvenir itself is amazing. This is a sequel to it. It's a sort of semi-autobiographical story about a young filmmaker.

And souvenir part two is amazing. And number one, I am going to say, Barbenheimer. And I know that's unfair. But what I want to say is... No, that's okay. But it's because what it showed us is... the moment of it. Look at this extraordinary thing.

It is a possibility that rose up organically as a phenomenon. But here is someone making a film about something extreme. I mean, it's Christopher Nolan. The director is the star. He's making something extremely, you know, you're making a film about the Manhattan Project. And then also, here is a movie effectively made in the service of a toy company, but nonetheless manages to be kind of staggeringly original and cool and bring masses of people to the theatre. So I would say that both of those and the fact,

the phenomenon of them being yoke together was very, very cool, and it showed you of a whole range of possibilities within filmmaking. So, nope, souvenir part two, Barbenheimer. In some order, but I'll do it in that order. Well, that's the order you've done it. I know, that's fine. So your favourite film was Barvanheimer. Okay, I'm going to say that.

Of those three. But because of what it represented, yes. But actually, probably, souvenir. I'm going to go for three sort of comedies in a way, but I mean, all sort of bittersweet comedies. Rye Lane is my number three, the Ray and Alan. Miller movie, the sort of South London rom-com with David Johnson, written by Nathan Brian and Tom Melia. It's a really, really, really funny, cute, charming, beautifully made movie that you just

think, oh, how lovely to see something so perfectly formed. I've yet to meet anyone who didn't enjoy it. Number two, I'm going to go for the holdovers, the Alexander Payne movie, Paul Giamitti, where he's sort of, I think it's set in the early 1970s, and he's a teacher who has to look up after all the kids who... At a boarding school. At a boarding school who don't go home for Christmas. In fact, there's just one kid in the end. And it's, again, really, really, really beautiful movie.

And number one, it won't surprise you. I haven't gone for Barbenheimer. I've gone for the Ballad of Wallace Island. Oh, I knew again. She's that, yeah. Tom Buston and Tim Key. It's such a beautiful, funny film. But those, there's three films there, none of which outstay, they're welcome.

All of which have just beautiful writing, beautiful performances. None of which costs crazy amounts of money at all. And I get, I absolutely get what Tarantino says, because he has a very visceral approach to filmmaking. He wants something new and spectacular and something that shocks him and surprises him. And none of these movies would do that to him. But all of these movies,

if you're a writer or if you have any sort of love in your heart, I think you would enjoy all three of them. Okay, so now to get on to what it's sparked, obviously, the minute he says something like this, everyone's like, great, this is a hook for us to publish lots of lists of things that are actually good like we've just done. Thank you, thank you, Quintier.

And this new idea of these lists, coming out all the time. This is now like a genre, a vertical. It is an entire permanently reiterating editorial product. Really interesting appointment very recently. The New York Times has appointed someone called Gilbert Cruz to be their head of canon. Now he used to run the book review section. There's a very small, some people say, oh, maybe he didn't do so well on the book review section. Is he being sort of moved aside? But actually, this is a whole new job. They've never had a head of canon before. Now, in terms of what is canon? It's like the Civil War.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. The word itself has been invented, sort of, it's gone over many, many times. It started actually in the 1300s where Canon meant the collection of books of the Bible that were accepted by the Christian church as genuine and inspired. By the 20th century, it sort of meant the classics. And fandoms talk about canon, you know, the sort of body of works taking place in their particular fictional world that they count, you know. And that started really, the Manchester. the Guardian apparently in 1933 had said, oh, just because a story contains the word,

elementary, my dear Watson, it doesn't mean it's part of the official Sherlock Holmes canon. And you know, you've got all these fandoms to West Star Wars. Is this canon? Is this just off canon? Whatever it is. But the New York Times has appointed someone for this to do this job permanently, which seems odd. But these lists now form a huge amount of what you read online. And we used to have lists.

They didn't exist in the same way. we would have power lists, you know, people do a media power list like once a year, but it was kind of niche, it was almost industry, or you'd get trade publications doing them, or you'd get, you know, the Sunday Times rich list. Then you'd have the listical era, BuzzFeed and all those sort of things. But it is now one of the most important things in digital media, and it's happened very, very quickly, and you'll notice this happens all the time. And what it's really, what they are really saying in The New York Times is that the most successful products,

cultural products that they produce are not criticism any longer. They are these giant definitive lists, these proprietary rankings of books or films or restaurants or whatever it is. I'm all in favour. Yeah, and it's become a huge market movie.

You know, these books, once they say, you know, the top 50 books of this century or whatever it is, they reprint with that on the cover. They're not just quick listicles. You'll notice that something's changed. It's not just a kind of quick thing. you've got to get buy-in from all your biggest critics

and from, say you're doing movies, you get directors to cut it and you, and this was the panel that chose this. But what you're creating there is something, first of all, they're obviously saying this is one of our most important business products that we create. And what you're saying as well is,

this is an evergreen piece of updatable content. They are a mass market content format now and they do so much better than reviews. The Guardian does this a lot. You'll notice that they have, you know, the 20 best something's ranked. And those always perform incredibly well. Furthermore, they last longer. They're sort of evergreen.

Then they sit on your site and people come back and back to them. And they use them as a form of curation. And that thing that we keep talking about taste and how taste is becoming in such a sort of noisy and crowded world really important. These kind of big legacy media brands are moving increasingly into these things where they can, You can keep updating the list and you can change it and it can become. But these are the most significant cultural products they produce, not criticism and reviews any other. Yeah, because, you know, we have enough,

we have enough canon now in various different areas that the new has become slightly less interesting and less important and actually just constant ways of dipping into the old, I think is fascinating. I did that Guardian top 100 books thing where you had to do your, you know, 10 favourite books. And when they put it out, the comments underneath were just, they go, oh, my God, where's this? Where's X? And actually, funny enough, the Guardian had done it in quite a smart way. They've got loads and loads of writer, Stephen King, all sorts of people did it.

And not only could look at the top 100, but you could click on any person you wanted and read their top 10 and read their comments about it. So people say, where's X, where's why? You think, well, there's going to look in some of the lists, you don't have to just look at the top 100. That's literally just, you know, everyone's votes are put together. That's why Middle March is number one. I know you think it's boring. but like a lot of writers for whatever reason don't think it's boring. And like my top 10, I have middle march on it,

but there's only two of my top 10 were in the top 100s. But you can click on mine and look through my favourite 10 books. And, you know, that's useful to people. I know, I mean, I'm someone who will always buy the book that's out this week. But most people want to look back through 200 years of literature and go, what shouldn't I read. Just tell me what I should do, please. You know, when the New York Times did it, some best books of the 25.

first century. And, you know, I looked through that. And that's where I discovered Lonesome Dove. Or that's when I realized, oh, I really should read Lonesome Dove. And I've been banging on about how brilliant that is. And that was it, funny enough in my top 10. And someone said to me, why is everyone talking about Lonesome Dove all of a sudden? I think, because it was in that list. It's a really, really good way of rediscovering things. It's a really good way of discovering things that may be kind of past you by a bit. And if you look at writers like, you know, Barbara Pim, for example, who's been, you know, rediscovered her brilliant things for the second time. But, you know, a lot of that is from lists. A lot of that is from

people saying, you know, what are the 10 most overlooked novels? Who are the 10 writers we should read? Not everyone wants to say the Great Gatsby. Sometimes people would like to say. Yeah, you want to recommend things that you think actually, or maybe people won't have, won't know this. I mean, I love a list. But the search traffic stays so gold for the publishers who are publishing these things. Because people go, people say, what are the best books of all time. Can you help me out here?

Yeah. So it's really interesting that these lists have actually become enormous and huge and we'll be, I think that's not going to be the last head of canon, you see. Yeah, well, funny enough, he sent me an email which I thought was spam. So Gilbert Cruz is the guy's name. Yeah, Gilbert Cruz. Yeah, asking about the best crime novels all the time. I thought it was spam.

You better dig it out of your inbox. Gilbert, I apologise. I had not realised that. But it also leads me on neatly to I'm doing some bonus episodes, which are essentially what is the best ever. I love this. US sitcom, what's the best ever

UK game show? But I'm doing it in my traditional World Cup of thing. I'll have a couple of guests on. We'll talk about all the best things they possibly are

and find a winner. The first one we're doing is US sitcoms. What's the best ever US sitcom? And because the great James Burroughs passed away this week who directed friends

and Fraser and cheers and did more than direct those things as well. So we're going to find John Robinson Maisie Adam are joining me. We're going to find the greatest US sitcom. That one, I think we're going to make free to everyone.

After that, it's for members. Oh, I'm dying for that. Yes, I think it's going to be an awful lot of fun. I mean, you know, we talked about authenticity just now. I cannot be authentic without saying, I love a list. I love putting things against each other and seeing what wins. So does the market. Yeah, so does the World Cup.

Yeah. Yeah. Recommendations? Do you know what? Ingrid is filming at the moment, and she's, she is, I can't say what in, but she's being an astronaut. And so we've been watching lots of astronaut things

just to see what they're like when they're in their craft. And we watched Return to Space, which is about the growth of SpaceX. And I absolutely loved it. It's really, really extraordinary. There's quite a lot of Elon Musk in it.

And actually, there's quite a lot of Elon Musk acting like a human being in it and showing some emotion. but also showing what it is that he's achieved there. But the main thing about it is is the astronauts and the people behind the scenes, the technicians and the people who work on this stuff. It makes you realise what an extraordinary endeavour going to space is

and what a team you need to do that. So I absolutely love that, return to space. And that's on Netflix. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. I loved it. How about you? Oh, my God. I can't believe the pettiness of mine

compared to the ethics. of that, okay. I want to recommend a trailer, which I said to you on your holiday, and I sincerely hope you watched. Please can you just everyone watch the trailer for a new National Geographic documentary, docudrama maybe? Yeah. I think it's going to be on Disney Plus,

in which Tom Hiddleston is playing Time Detective to go back and solve the mystery of the final hours of Pompeii. I think it's called Pompeii out of time. I'm going to find a way of making you do a full item on it, because if you are an ironic admirer of Tom Hiddleston's intensity as I am, there is so much to enjoy in this trailer that I just want, you know, do your homework guys and then we can talk, and then I'm just going to find a way of forcing it.

And the other thing I would like to recommend is... You're not just going to recommend a trailer. No. I'm going to recommend Roy Keane being on, Roy Keene's rant on, he's asked by Gary Neville on the overlap, that a podcast to put something into, football room 101 and he chose wags who put their husband's names on the back of the shirt and then photographs themselves.

It's so special. Judge Roy Keene has allowed that for the children of players. He was like, we know who you're married to. You'll be separated within a year. I love you, Roy Keane. I love you. It's just, it's very special. Roy Keene is sort of the Quentin Tarantino of football.

Absolutely. Yeah. So our bonus episode this week, Marina. is the final episode of the vibe shift that the series I did with James Kanagosuram, it's about the sort of end of peak woke and where things are going now. It's really interesting. And if you want to be a member, it's the rest of entertainment.com. You get all those bonus episodes.

You get ad-free listening, all of that stuff. As always, you do not have to be a member. And for everyone else, we will see you for a Q&A on Thursday. See you on Thursday. Hello, everyone. We've got some exciting news to share with the listeners of the Restors Entertainment. We do indeed. We are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third off the regular price.

That's right. With the code summer 26, you can head to the rest of entertainment.com and claim an annual membership with this brilliant discount. So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama behind the scene stories and industry gossip, but have none of the ads and why wouldn't you? It is a no-brainer. Plus, you can catch up with all of the archive of our members only shows. You may have missed, including Marina's latest series of Vib Shift. And we've got lots more of those special series plan. But remember this deal will only run until the end of August.

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