The Rest Is Entertainment - Another music site bites the dust and will women's creative value be recognised?

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

With the demise of Pitchfork where next for music criticism? Will you be sampling Brooklyn Beckham's cooking on Uber Eats? And with women dominating the book charts, the box office and music - when will the world wake up and recognise their true worth? Join Richard and Marina as they navigate these topics on this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment. Twitter: @restisents Email: [e-mail] Producer: Neil Fearn Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Recommendations; Watch Richard: Memento Mori (iPlayer) Maria: The Boy & The Heron / American Fiction / The Holdovers (Cinema) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm really well. We've got some fun things to talk about. The first thing we're going to talk about today I'm excited about because it's Brooklyn Beckham, who I'm obviously aware of. He's in my sights. He's always been in my peripheral vision. What can't he do, Richard? What can't he do? He's got something new on the horizons, which we will get fully into. We shall find out. We're also going to talk about women in Hollywood and why women sort of buy all the books. They make all the good films now, and yet Hollywood still won't make films with them at the helm. They've completely dominated music as well over the last 12 months, so we'll talk about that.

music as well over the last 12 months so we'll talk about that and finally we are going to talk about still in the area of music that a pitchfork which was a hugely influential uh music publication music criticism publication has essentially been shuttered as we know it and it's being folded into gq by its new owners conde nast and i will try and explain why i think you should really care about this we're going to talk about magazines folding. Yeah. Should we start with Brooklyn Beckham? That's a lovely way to start a show. Okay. Now, Brooklyn's had, at the age of 24, he's had a number of careers already. I literally can't wait to read his crime novel.

Former model, footballer, former footballer, former photographer, former monograph author, and now chef. What can't you do? What can't you do? Now, Brooklyn has teamed up for a collaboration with Uber Eats. He's had quite a lot of trolling online for the people saying this is ridiculous for his cooking, his cooking skills anyhow. But according to Uber Eats, I'm going to actually read you this from the press release. Uber Eats host Brooklyn Beckham is reimagining the food delivery status quo. Now, let me tell you how he's doing that. Status quo are involved as well?

Yes. Okay, now I'm interested. They've got you now. Uber Eats' general manager says the company is very excited to be working with one of the world's most talked about foodies. Which in some ways doesn't actually come here to a position on either side of it. But anyhow, let me tell you what he's doing. He's doing a pop-up restaurant where five dishes created by brooklyn will be on available for precisely two days this week between the hours of 5 p.m and 10 p.m to london customers only and actually on the first of those days only if you're

like an uber eats premier customer so i don't think we're talking about the launch of the hard rock cafe here in terms of like a sort of international concern however would you like to know the dishes that he's doing brooklyn brooklyn's doing yeah yes please chicken tikka masala 15 quid nanny peggy's english breakfast sandwich 12 nanny peggy's english breakfast sandwich it's an english breakfast in a sandwich it's you know is it a serving suggestion or is it a recipe that will be one for one for those who order it to debate deep fried buttermilk cauliflower 10 pounds prawn and pork dumplings 10 for five dumplings and spag bol at 15.

Will he be cooking them personally? I'm guessing yes. You're guessing wrong Richard he will be represented by actual chefs but what I love is that Uber Eats told the Evening Standard that don't worry Brooklyn will be compensated for his time and involvement in the campaign. Oh, phew. Oh, my God. That's what I was going to ask. I was going to say, please, God, tell me he's getting a lot of money for it. So, yeah, I think he does get quite a lot of money for all these things. So there has obviously been quite a lot of resentment. He's talked a little bit about doing this particular campaign.

He's trying to move into the food space with some form of adventure or another he's copyrighted a number of things i think uh hot sauce labels sweatshirts nfts i mean you know everything you'd expect um and but he has taken quite a lot of heat as it were for this latest one of his careers he's only 24 i should say i think it would probably be better if someone said to him look it's fine to have hobbies it's absolutely fine to have them then again he is making a huge amount of money from each of the hobbies that have become a but here's the interesting thing that uber eats thing firstly we're talking about it secondly lots of people are talking about it thirdly it will sell out

now why is that well as one of london's most committed ironists i don't if you don't think i've got a calendar alert in my phone for 5 p.m on thursday then you don't know me very well because i will be one of the people buying it just to see so yes the reason i guess we're talking about this is because it's a sort of way into nepo babies which will probably a phrase you see quite a lot these days i sort of feel nepo babies i think we have made progress on nepo babies bear in mind that in the sort of late middle ages nepo babies were being given things like bishoprics yes there was a whole point in the history of the british empire where people would say you know what are we going to do with johnny you know his

brother's going in the house of lords obviously because he's the elder he's a semi-adequate middle-order batsman and he likes to drink. How about he runs 50,000 square miles of India? That's what we used to do with Nepo babies. They used to have an ambassadorship, not a brand ambassadorship. I think so, yeah. We used to send them on the grand tours, didn't we, in the old days? I mean, they're all family.

They're all Nepo babies. The original Nepo babies. And we're comfortable with them. On that David Beckham documentary, which we've spoken about, he comes across rather well, Brooklyn Beckham. Oh, he's perfectly sweet. When I hear him talk, he seems a very, very sweet guy. And what else is he going to do? I mean, the whole point is, as you say,

if your father was a landed gentry and owned Hampshire, then that's what you would do. Now, Brooklyn Beckham happens to be in a position where his father was one of the greatest footballers of all time. And his mum was in one of the biggest selling music acts of all time and then became an enormously successful fashion designer. Neither of which you can't really follow in the family footsteps. You can't go, my dad used to play for England, so I'm going to play for England. But he's got to do something.

And if people are willing to throw money his way, you know, at least... And they are. thing and if people are willing to throw money his way you know at least and they are the he had an online show called cooking with brooklyn where each episode cost something like a hundred thousand dollars per episode it was like and it just looked like it was thrown together apparently 62 people were involved in each episode you know having said all that richard i do think that people obviously it's the level at what you go at which you go into these things that people can't really stand it i mean as i, it's fine to have a hobby. You don't necessarily have to make a business out of it. And he had a photography

book, which I was going to ask you about. It's iconic. For ironists, it is iconic. He had a photography book, a monograph called Brooklyn Beckham, What I See. And it was the most notorious caption is a sort of as a picture of some background and then a big black thing right in the sort of center of the frame which you can't see and the caption is elephants in Kenya so hard to photograph but incredible to see I kind of admire I admire the hustle there's another one which is a really out of focus photo of Victoria Beckham's birthday in a restaurant and the caption was I like this picture it's out of focus but you can tell there's a lot going on you see everything he's doing is what anyone else his age would be doing it's absolutely not

his fault in any way whatsoever this book was launched at Christie's it's not really his fault but I think it probably is our culture's fault well there's something about the culture about in fact we might get onto it when we talk about magazines about how there is no grand culture anymore everything is siloed. And so, you know, if you can get 100,000 people to really, really, really like something, then you're profitable. And, you know, you can certainly do that. And so these big organizations, of course, they jump on board. And I sort of think there's something not quite right.

Listen, we were on a plane recently, and there was an amazing group of women. All of whom were makeup influencers, and they were flying out to New York and being flown out there by some big company. And I thought, this is so great, because they were smart, they were funny, they were obviously making their own money in a really good way. They were providing a service that people were enjoying. One of them was putting on her mascara during turbulence on camera. Respect the work.

So I think absolutely fair play. So that world of influences, I get people, when someone's got a skill and they're doing something that connects with people, I think it's a perfectly valid way to make a living.

The Nepo baby thing is slightly harder, isn't it? Yeah. It's questionable as to whether he would be where he was without his parents. I believe that it's answerable, actually. I don't think it's questionable. questionable as to whether he would be where he was without his parents but that's not his fault it's answerable actually i don't think it's questionable i think my question is would he be

your answer is no i just don't think he'd quite have made it but again and it's an older brother thing the the younger kids seem very chill but he's a brooklyn's the oldest and his parents are such high achievers he's got to got to do something hasn't he's got to find his way in the world and find a way of being himself it's just yeah it leaves an uncomfortable taste the fact that there's money he's making well it's so often in industries that other people really struggle to get ahead on yeah and it's in there and it's in difficult industries and that's what really sort of gets to people well acting is the crazy one i mean acting is all it's all never but it always has been. Yes. All of these people are Nepo babies, all of whom we would consider legends.

So forget all the kids now who get slagged off. George Clooney, Nepo baby. Jamie Lee Curtis, of course. Ben Stiller, Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Charlie Sheen, Laura Dern. Michael Douglas is an 80-year-old Nepo baby. But Hollywood is a town that's entertainment and you work in the family industry. Britain's Greatest Nepo Babies, Mattie Healy,

lead singer of the 1975, and did you go out with Taylor Swift? Twice out with her. Once very briefly and once fleetingly briefly. Oh, there's a career in that. He is the son of Tim Healy, he used to play Dennis in Alphida's Pet, and Denise Welsh from Loose Women. But that's not Nepo Baby

because they are not able to get you into the rock world. No. I think what he's done there is written some songs that people liked and sung them and then sold records. Also, Barney Walsh, who hosts, as we know, Gladiators with Bradley Walsh. Yes, I felt he was worse this week than he was in the first week.

Almost like a radioactive isotope. He's getting worse at quite an extreme sort of half-life of quality presenting. I like him. I like the two of them together. But, do you know the greatest Nepo babies in Britain? I tell you. Paul and Sophie from Gogglebox, who are the niece and nephew of the Chuckle Brothers. Really?

Yeah. Hey, that's how they got where they are today. Yeah. That's good, though, isn't it yeah okay that is fantastic i did not know that fact that's our version of uh of cook douglas and michael douglas yeah yeah so much better okay obviously i will be sampling brooklyn's food and as cooked by representatives of him and i will get back to you on how it tasted next week i cannot wait well you'll have to and we'll be back very shortly after this break. I refuse to.

I refuse to go to an advert. I won't do it. You're going to an advert now. Best Western made booking our family beach vacation a breeze and it felt a little like... Come on kids, back to the hotel room.

Good night kids. Good night mama. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Welcome back, everybody. We want to talk now about an interesting trend in the last few years that women tend to be dominating pretty much every cultural field, music, books, movies. And yet they don't seem to be dominating the economic realities economic realities behind those industries does that sound too blurry a focus it doesn't it women like i was i was reading because you were telling me about this particular phenomenon that women had dominated the uk's

music scene in 2023 and they accounted for the most weeks of number one since the inception of the charts in 1952 and it's quite clear that you're kind of living in an era of like female artist domination. And the biggest, biggest people, and obviously you're looking at things like Taylor Swift and Beyonce's tours, which they've become these kind of phenomenal brands. Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo.

Yes, exactly. And the book charts tell me about that because this is your specialism and not mine. Well, yeah, the book charts. I mean, see, that's the interesting thing is women tend to consume more stuff. And certainly books, fiction books is almost 66% to 33% female-dominated readers. Yeah. And the biggest books, Bonnie Garmis, Gabriella Zevin, I mean, Sarah J. Mass, Rebecca Yaros,

all of these people selling absolutely bundles of books. And my experience just in the publishing industry is very, very, very female dominated. When we were selling Thursday Murder Club, you go on a sort of beauty pageant of the companies who've offered on the book. And I think we met five companies and all their heads of department would come in and chat to you. And there were 40 people we met that day. And one of them was a man. Gosh. 39 women.

But at the end of three different meetings, the head, head, head, head of the publishers came in to say hi. And all three of them were men. Now, I'll say this about all three of those men. They're all brilliant. They are. I mean, they're they're all brilliant they are i mean they're good you know they're really really good but there was also a number of really really really

good women around that table and publishing has been quite female heavy for a long time so it's not like oh you know certain industries say yeah but we need the supply chain you know you know the women who entered into this industry in the 90s need to be becoming the ceos books have had that for a long time. But why is this treating? Now, in movies, there's incredible female stars and female directors. But again, it's such a financially male-dominated industry. Completely. The biggest movies, I guess, of 2023 were, with the exception of Barbie, all directed by men. But that also means that the biggest flops of the year were also directed by men.

And so you're looking at things like The Flash, Indiana Jones, The Dial of Destiny, Mission Impossible, Dead Reckoning, whatever our Fast Transformers iteration we're now on. These all did really quite badly. And it's interesting, there was a really interesting article on Puck the other day, which was kind of taking a look and saying that actually the biggest hits of the last five months have been without exception female driven female skewing so you've got mean girls which by the way just this weekend has had its second week at the top of the box office you've got the color purple um sorry that's not i guess you wouldn't say maybe that's a massive hit so far in the uk but you would have taylor swift and's concert films, which were huge. Hunger Games, Ballad of Song of Birds and Snakes,

and Wonka, which is definitely female skewing. And actually quite a lot of these have got a sort of funny thing that they're doing at the moment, the movie studios, which is they're musicals, but the trailer doesn't tell you it's a musical. And so they kind of hide what's called the musicality of the film. So it's interesting. But, you know Catherine Bigelow won an Oscar for her first locker she was the first woman to win a best

directing Oscar in 2008 the pace of change has been very slow really that women I mean if you look things like Mamma Mia grossed more than Iron Man yeah and people sort of say oh yeah that's a blip that's a blip They always explain these kind of female kind of big, big hits as a blip. And then they say these things, what we call a four quadrant movie, which is what a film industry term for, it appeals to all four quadrants

of the supposed movie going demographic. What are the four quadrants? Males over 25, males under 25, women over 25, and women under 25. And so- Those don't feel like quadrants

they don't of course they just feel like everyone in the world well there is everyone but also quadrants should be equal men and women over 25 there's loads of them

yes there's hardly anyone under 25 anymore isn't there well what they're trying to do and you get these kind of quite bland you know

this is why superhero franchises high concept things like this fantasy things yes they've tried to appeal to literally everybody and because they spend such enormous amounts of money on these movies

that you kind of need everybody to be able to consider themselves as part of the potential audience. And everything has to be hit in Hollywood now, doesn't it? Everything has to. Because they launch so few films. And because they spend so much. You know, if you're spending $350 million on a movie, then you've kind of got everyone to go and see it.

The kind of death of the $60 million budget movie means that it has to be absolutely massive. But the pace of change has been very slow, as I said. One of the things that's quite interesting is, yeah, what you were talking about earlier is, do men want to invest, as in proper serious, like almost venture capital type of money, into women or men who are not like them? I was talking to someone in the hairdressing world the other day, and he said something really interesting. He said, you tell me why in a business that is totally dominated by women and gay men, the only four people to ever have made

big, big, serious money out of hairdressing are straight men. Okay. Vidal Sassoon, John Frieda, Nicky Clark, Frederick Fekai. And I was like, and he said, Frederick for Kai and I was like and he said you know what I just he said I think they kind of see you as decorative and they don't they they like having you might be fun to have around but they don't want to give you their big dollars to invest in your company make a huge kind of international business and there's a lot to be said about that in Hollywood as well there is they they may you know women have always been essential to the movie making process and they were actually essential to the development of film in the first place but they in terms of getting the big bucks and big investments we continue to kind of invest in these male-led

tentpole movies that is a bit of a worry because if you think of those for the last five months of which of these female skewing movies have made all the, what's on the slate coming up in the next year is more of these tentpole movies because it's a little bit like the old supertanker. It's quite hard to turn around. It takes so long to make these things that in the pipeline are all these other kind of Marvel movies, all the sort of similar things are coming down the line

that there is really no guarantee that there's going to be a return on it. And I think that it would be great if they suddenly started thinking that they might back women a little bit more and get and maybe just dispense with the idea that every movie has to be a four quadrant movie all I'm thinking is I'd like to watch a movie about a super tanker that's what I'm thinking no but it's exactly right I mean Jason Statham stars not hold on Jason Statham in super tanker yeah I mean that's this is sort of the movie I'm talking

about isn't it but yeah I mean that's really. I'm so looking forward to Supertanker 4. That's a two-quadrant movie. Yeah. Supertanker 4, 180 degrees. But it's exactly right that women are, by and large, have become the audience, the influencers as to what films do well. And yet, so many Fast and Furiouses, so, you know, Indiana Jones, all these things Jones Another flop this year, effective flop and it's

there's a sensibility in lots of industries which is male skewing art is default art and you have to break away from that to make something that appeals to women and I think it's probably the other way around I totally agree, it's not a niche genre

it's way more than 50 of your audience things women like yes it's not a niche genre and in fact throughout the whole of history things women like tend to be the things that uh that make the most money it's a it's a fascinating one books i genuinely find interesting i like the meritocracy of the thing that the the book charts are 66 women and that books are read 66 at the time by women i think that's great but there's been a lot written in books recently three or four years in a row all the big book prizes every single person on the shortlist was a woman there were no male um no no men on any of those shortlists and people started going what's happened to the male novel?

And you think, I think the male novel's okay. I think... Fears for the male novel. Yeah, I think it's going to be good. And TV, like the biggest stars, Claudia Winkerman, Alison Hammond, you know, people, they can make a show watchable for everybody. And it takes such a long time to turn that around.

I mean, people were quite hotly defending the fact that now of those big Saturday night shows, Make a show watchable for everybody. And it takes such a long time to turn that around. I mean, people were quite hotly defending the fact that now of those big Saturday night shows, there are no women hosting any of those ones in that big slot. I can't remember what they were, a lot of gladiators, Michael McIntyre. It's all men, with the exception of Claudia doing Traitors when it's on. Exactly, and Strictly. Yeah. When it's on, but it's not yet again, yeah.

What's your view of what's going to happen, though? Do you think that all of that money, the real money that gets made, which is venture capital money, which is studio money, which is publisher money, do you think that's going to start getting diverted 66% to women? Well, it is the smart business decision.

It's almost like, it reminds me almost of that kind of money ball sort of thing where you have to forget everything you think you know which was moneyball with famously the michael lewis book about the oakland days and the coach billy bean who starts kind of scouting players and he dispenses mostly what people did was think does this person look like a ball player and in fact he thinks no no i'm going to do it all by the maths and he has incredible success with this team that having discounted all those kind of things that you come to the business of scouting or whatever with thinking, yeah, does this person look like me? Does this person look like the type of person who would do well in this particular team role or whatever it is? And I think actually they need to unlearn lots of those things and actually just to look at the pure maths of it all, to get some sort of financial analyst to explain,

this is where the dollars are going. Because to a huge extent, movies has been such an odd business. You never know what's going to work. Nobody knows anything. The famous dictum William Goldman said about Hollywood. And there were certain bankers in the business. And actually, this is quite an interesting thing. Disney.

Disney has always been female skewing. I'm not including some of the things they've bought under their umbrella, Star Wars, Marvel, but things like Pixar and the Disney catalogue of its own hits that they're now sort of remining and making a live action.

It's really interesting that none of those hits that I mentioned earlier in this item have come from Disney. And, you know, Disney have had loads of misses. I remember seeing them at Comic-Con like a couple of years ago and the guy said, you know, I'm not seeing the things on the slate, said, have you ever wondered how the wishing star, the one that so many Disney characters wished upon, came to be?

Answer, no, please tell me you haven't made a film about it. But they have. And you see they're getting down to sort of dregs. It's like, why don't you just sort of back some people to make something interesting obviously greta goig was as as i've said before on the podcast that i do have a slight problem with the fact that it was all done in the service of mattel the big toy corporation but she did something really you know clearly phenomenal and amazing with it and it the idea that women can't do these things and that there isn't the audience must surely just on the numbers alone be dispensed with.

I think so. I think that when you have industries by and large tend to be, certainly the movie industry, tend to be run by people who are maybe 20, 30 years into their career. They're the ones with the hits under their belt and with a track record and it's very difficult

if you've had 30 years in an industry not to make the sort of movies your gut told you to make in the 1990s you know there's a lot of people in tv who's who's only real understanding is i i need i should still be making the tv programs i wanted to make in the 1990s because that audience is completely gone and it takes a long time for that to turn around. That's not going to turn around until Super Tango 6 with Jason Statham and Vin Diesel. And so I think that...

Real name Mark Sinclair. There's so much take-home on this podcast. So I think that it feels like things have to change because you can't fight reality for too long. And the reality is female skewing stuff has been making more money than male skewing stuff for quite a while now and there comes a point where even hollywood has to judge money above misogyny yeah can you imagine they're two favorite things they finally got put one of them first they like money i mean you know

money is their most favorite i long for a day when it is not brooklyn beckham who's doing an uber eats collaboration it's harper beckham well i'm sure you won't have to wait too long now something else that has happened this week is pitchfork magazine one of the leading online music magazines um there's been let's say a market correction marina yeah pitchfork was started in uh 1996 by a former record shop owner a real classic you know entry into that no not a woman in this case but by the 2000s it had become this it was all it's all online it was a hugely important tastemaker it was like the big it's the biggest fish basically and they did all their album reviews they did sort of marks out of

10 um and they became sort of cultish and even if you defined yourself against it because you thought you weren't really a pitchfork person it was this absolutely dominant voice in music criticism and the music industry has obviously changed massively in that time you've had Napster then you've had Apple Music and then eventually you have Spotify. It was then acquired by Condé Nast in 2015 which is obviously the big American magazine group. And half the staff were laid off and they are folding it into GQ. Anna Wintour, the sort of legendary US Vogue editor, nicknamed Nuclear Wintour, on whom the Meryl Streep character in The Devil Wears Prada was based. And she's the global chief content officer of Condé Nast.

I have to say, this detail is horrifying. She kept her sunglasses on throughout the whole process of telling all these people that they were being fired. She did once say of the sunglasses, you know, they're seriously useful. I can sit in a fashion show and if I'm bored out of my mind, nobody notices. So, poor dear, I very much hope she wasn't too bored to be sacking all those people. And anyway, anything ads supported, which Pitchfork was, is losing money. Almost all advertising now online goes to three companies Amazon Google and Meta who obviously own Facebook but what is happening what is that we're losing huge amounts of the music press there's NME has gone Q has gone

but Pitchfork it was the biggest fish as I say. Now, if you're thinking to me, why does it matter? Why does it matter? Why does it matter? I tell you why. Because something human is dying and it is being killed by machines and it is being replaced by machines. It's all AI now. Most things are now, even Spotify started with humans curating playlists and things like that. Now it's all done by AI.

But why did you ever care about music criticism? You might be thinking, well, in the old days, it was a lot more important because you obviously have a certain amount of disposable income that you might spend on new music. And you needed a guide so that you weren't wasting your money. You needed someone to tell you whether it was good, why it was good. You might totally disagree with him. You might think, I hate this critic. They'll probably love this because he hates it or whatever it is but they were your human guide to this world and they also helped us understand the place of music in our current culture they understood to understand it as art anyhow you but now when you can listen to anything

completely cheaply what does it matter whether you know you you don't need a music people think you don't need a music critic because you have something, you know, we talk about things like discoverability and algorithms are machine guides to this world. They are machine guides to the world of art. And what that is meaning is that this world is becoming flattened and less creatively diverse because what they recommend to you all the time is things like the things you already like. It's like that bit on, you know, the little thing on Amazon, customers who like this also liked, but for art. So what that does is that actually decreases diversity, creative diversity, and it makes things sound similar to each other.

And, I mean, Pitchfork saw all this coming, and I was going back over some great reviews, and I remember seeing one describing someone as an artist as wearing hippie costumes that they 3D printed off the internet. Now, Pitchfork could sort of see the machines coming for them. You know, their brand of kind of human tastemaking was going to be replaced by algorithmic tastemaking. But we are the poorer for all of this. Definitely. Peter Robinson, who's a music writer, he always tweets as Pop Justice, who's music writing, I've always really liked. He wrote a really interesting thread about it this week and he began

by mentioning Q magazine folding in the former editor saying to the music business I'd say you're going to miss the music press why because it did the one thing you fail to value through its lens it made your act seem exciting and larger than life even when they weren't that's so true isn't it that's all music journalism is trying to take profoundly boring people and give them anecdotes to tell. So the thing is, people are still reading just as much as they ever were. Advertisers are still advertising. Advertisers still need people to buy their stuff.

But as you say, it's just all been funneled into three massive companies. And so what publishers are having to do across magazines and across newspapers is chase a smaller and smaller pot of advertising and obviously they have less and less money to spend on content because their money comes from advertising and so that clickbaity stuff a lot of which is ai generated which sort of scrapes other sites and you know says you'll never believe what Gordon Ramsay looks like now. You think, listen, I've got to guess, you know. But you're also going to go, oh, I actually wonder what he does look like now.

That's what journalism is becoming. It's what magazines have had to become as well. Print magazines, that industry is really, really dying out. Yes, this is the canary in the coal mine, as you say, for other industries, for all types of journalism and for all this type of writing. You know, some of the... Sports Illustrated has effectively lost its license, which is a huge, legendary publication.

It's been going for over 70 years, I think. And it's lost its license to publish in the US this week. They had an AI scandal a couple of months ago where it was discovered that lots of the content was written by people who didn't really exist and all of this is coming for all of journalism and then actually really for the wider culture the machines are winning it does really matter that they've got to fight for the humor we know exactly what happens because we've seen it before because it was the industrial revolution so we know what happens we know we know that the machines take the

jobs what you hope happens is that you know in the case of what's happened with vinyl that suddenly there is a sort of under industry of really you know handcrafted things and you know handwritten things and things that are made by real human beings but again that's sort of only accessible to certain groups of people it's not a particularly democratic thing so again you get this sort of art becomes selective and art belongs to a certain group of people because all the big companies are feeding you the same stuff all the time and none of the small companies can compete print magazines take a break magazine you should sell 1.5 million copies a week it now still sells half a million by the way i can only find three magazines in the top 10 whose circulations have gone up in the last 10 years oh that's interesting what are they they are the economist private eye

and slimming world well what a story of our times isn't it just and things you know l magazine now has a hotel in france good housekeeping which still sells a lot of copies you know they have their own um furniture range you know these brands have to be doing different things yeah they have sponsored they have sponsor content they have things that are they kind of curate experiences so in a way falling prey to the same kind of algorithms as exactly that and the things they write about print magazine sales have gone from a billion to 300 million in 10 years i have a theory about why it is and that's because we always used to read magazines in dentist waiting rooms and now none of us can find a dentist. That's got to have something to do with it. But it is, we have to protect this sort of thing at all costs, because we are going to be

served slop for many, many years to come. And our kids are going to be served slop. Yeah, because it's the digital ones that are going to, you know, BuzzFeed News has gone, Jezebel's gone, lots of these places where you would find forms of cultural criticism and fun and things like that have gone. And nothing is really replacing them. And apart from machine creation, one thing that you would think, I do know that the whole sort of discoverability thing that they have with the algorithms for someone like Spotify or whatever, people being suggested similar things to the things they already like does keep them listening, but it doesn't actually drive proper engagement and like long-term subscriptions that people want to be, want to see new things. So lots of those companies have said,

we need to get better at that and we need to get better at increasing diversity. But what they really mean is we need a machine to get better at that. They don't mean a human, they don't mean a human guide to this world anymore. So it's fascinating that just, you know, the sort of closing down or the folding in of one magazine tells you an awful lot about where our culture is heading. My first ever job when I was 15, I used to write for the NME. And back then I used to write, I sort of sent in a couple of live reviews and they published them. And so I wrote for them when I was at, when I was at school what a thrill and uh in those days nme melody maker and sound would all come out

yeah every wednesday three competing magazines all i read all of them we all read you know you were obsessed with all of them and actually but to some extent pitchfork people would check the site six times a day when it was really in its pump and they would just keep going back in and i saw a music writer in the guardian saying she she even if she sort of thought oh i'm really going to recoil against this she couldn't stop dialing in but i will say um there's an awful lot of magazines still out there which really are written by real people and edited by great editors and they are having a really really really tough time if it's hard to make money in that industry but they're doing amazing work so you know if you ever sort of think should

i pick up a magazine maybe pick one up i mean even look online it's all it's all the same so long as it's real journalists writing in real magazines for real people then i think it's to be encouraged because the niche things matter the niche things that no one else particularly wants to cover because it's some experimental band review, you know, album or whatever it is. Those things really matter because those are what give the real light and shade to the culture. As you say, otherwise it becomes very grey and centrist and flattened. Was that too depressing this week? What about some cheery recommendations, Richard?

Yeah, sure. Oh my God. Do you know what? My recommendation is not cheery at all. It is brilliant, but it's not cheery. You do yours. Okay. I saw a few movies this week. I saw The Boy and the Heron, which is the... I'm a bit late on seeing this, which is the studio gave me the last, probably the last one of Hayao Miyazaki. It's so beautiful to look at, of course.

I mean, we were all quite confused for quite significant sections of the movie. Having said that, it is extraordinary to look at, and I recommend it on that basis. I really want to see The Boy, The Heron and The Supertanker which I believe is the follow up yes with a Statham knock off

in it but animated Statham Statham knock off Studio Ghibli Statham yeah I can't imagine that but thankfully I'll never have to

American Fiction is brilliant this is another movie which is I'm not sure it's quite out it might be coming out it'll be out later this month

and I thoroughly recommend that it will be on lots of the um awards best of lists and I also saw The Holdovers which is the new movie Alexander Payne movie with Paul Giamatti and that is fantastic as well yes my wife saw that she loved it um I'm going to recommend something on iPlayer I love iPlayer so much and there's lots of tiny little hidden corners of iPlayer that are so beautifully curated. We were talking about curating things and making things that other people wouldn't make and people finding them. The wonderful Muriel Spark, who wrote The Prime of Miss Jean Brody and lots of other great books. Her book Memento Mori.

BBC Two, in the early 90s, did a one-off TV version of it. I didn't know that. Stephanie Cole is in it, Maggie Smith is in it, Michael Horden. It's a fantastic novel. I only read it a couple of years ago and it is absolutely brilliant. And it's just populated with unbelievable actors. It's so sort of

dark but funny. Thora Hurd is in it, which is the second time she's been mentioned on this podcast. Beat that, the rest is history. So Memento Mori, hour hour and a half just one of those beautiful things that you know kind of the the bbc don't do set in the 50s in london loads of old people and so dark but funny and ultimately very very uplifting as well but that's it's wonderful just finding amazing stuff that you thought had been lost that's us done i think

normally we say um we'll see you on Thursday for the question and answer one, but we have a little added extra this week, do we not? We do. We are all over The Traitors. We love it so much, but we realise we don't want to do any spoilers in the main show, so a little special something will be coming.

So keep your eye on the feed because it will be coming in advance of the three final episodes. Only listen if you've watched the first nine because it will be absolutely in advance of the three final episodes only listen if you've watched the first nine because it will be absolutely for we'll be talking about the first nine episodes what's going to happen in the next three so do not listen if you've still got to catch up it's just for uh for people who are excited about wednesday evening but keep your eye on the feed for that one we've been looking for a catchphrase keep your eye on the feed well i said it twice in two seconds but i and now i'm just excited when i say anything technical i have no idea what it means uh we'll see you for that

or we'll see you on thursday for the question and answers