The Rest Is Entertainment - Are Nonsense Memes The New Punk Rock?

Episode Date: October 12, 2026

Who ‘owns’ the rights to a new wave of anarchic AI-generated characters? Has a Hollywood super-agent bought his way onto the Bestseller list? What is Marina Hyde’s new project? A key character in the world of the ‘Italian brainrot’ meme universe has become the unlikely centre of a fierce legal battle. Can you copyright an AI-generated character, and what are the consequences? Last month, Marina left The Guardian after 25 years as a columnist. She reveals exclusively on the podcast what she’s doing next, and why. Hollywood super-agent Ari Emanuel has published a buzzy memoir - and is facing accusations that he’s been bulk ordering copies himself. Can you buy your way to becoming a Bestselling author? Always On is home to Marina’s original writing and YouTube show. Each week she’ll be covering politics, culture, sport, media and more. It’s free to subscribe now on marinahyde.com and YouTube The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Sponsored by Lloyds. Learn how to avoid scams and protect yourself. See how Darkhorse Anti-Fraud Technology helps keep you safe from fraud. Search Lloyds protect yourself from fraud.  Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at ⁠⁠therestisentertainment.com ⁠⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to ⁠⁠www.goalhanger.com ⁠⁠ Video Editor: Adam Thornton & Caroline Kaye Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott  Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy  Social Producer: Emma Jackson Exec Producer: Ami Bennett  Filmed at ⁠⁠www.westdigitalstudios.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Resters Entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy, whose generation business backs, builds and manages renewable energy projects. On screen, though, the practicalities of sourcing power are slightly more negotiable. Certainly in scripts. I mean, my favourite energy source story, back to the future, of course, they're supposed to have plutonium. They don't have plutonium. So they were light. Back in when they go back in time.

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SAP Grow is built to grow with your business, no matter its size. With AI embedded at its core, working across every system, all ready to go from day one so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow. AI Cloud, ERP, for any size business. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina hi and me Richard Osmond. Hi Marina. Hello Richard. How are you?

I'm okay. How are you? I'm pretty good, thank you. I'm pretty good. I've got lots of things happening today. But I'm launching my new... We're going to talk about this today. We're going to talk about it. We're going to talk about what Marina did next and what it tells us about the culture. Yeah. Yeah. Other things we're talking about. I think our first story might be the most mental thing we've ever spoken about. If I say Italian brain rot, then half the listeners are sighing and the other half of listeners are sighing.

And the other half of listeners are going to take you through what it is and why this week is very, very important. Yes, the brain rot wars. Brain rot wars. We're going to be talking, can you buy your way onto the bestsellers list, Richard? We're going to talk about Ari Emanuel, the Hollywood super agent whose book Roll the Calls came out recently. Exactly. And there's some controversy over it. We also get to talk a little bit about Ari Emanuel himself, which is always.

fun because he's one of the most mental people in Hollywood, and that is, there's some competition for that. But talking of things that are genuine insanity, the world of Italian brain rot. The world of Italian brain rot. What is Italian brain rot? Brain rot is like an online... I can't believe we're starting a podcast with that sentence. Well, it's not the first time that we have mentioned this on this podcast. I believe I took you right into this whole last year when it came out, okay? But I tell you, it's like an online word, it's an internet culture word for sort of poor quality content. And a subgenre of that is Italian brain rot,

which are sort of weird AI-generated hybrid creatures, characters with Italian names, Italian-ish names, nonsense names, really. They interact in kind of absurdist, I think, quite nihilist ways. There's ballerina cappuccina. She's like a dancing sort of ninja cup of coffee. There's Bombadero Crocodillo. That's a plane with a crocodile head. As I say, there are all these hybrid creatures.

There's Tra la la la, tra la, that's the shark in sneakers. The first one of all? Yes, the first one of all. And I mean, there's loads of these now. But actually, the one who's emerged as the biggest star is Tung Tung Tung Saha. And that's why we're talking about it this week as well, because there's something very so Tung Tung Tung Tung Saha. Yes, it would be very unseasonal. So Tung Tung Tung Saha is based on a sort of elongated kind of Indonesian drum.

Now, the original creator with the seven prompts of Tung Tung, Tung Tung Tsah is an Indonesian sort of teenage kid whose handle is Noxa Internet handle. And by the way, only created in February 2025. That's how quick this culture moves. Oh my God, that's a distant past. I know. I know. It's amazing, isn't it?

It's got human limbs and a baseball bat. Like Tung Tung Tung Tung Soha. Like just like Tung Tung Tung Tung Soha. And if you're asking where you see these things, there are masses of online content, like absolutely massive. YouTube, people use them themselves. then people bring them into their own kind of content. They have been adopted. Tung Tung Tung Zah has gone as a skin into Fortnite.

This is when you can play as different characters, you know. And steal a brain rock, which I believe I talked to you if you listened to this podcast over a year ago, which is a Roblox game. Now, Roblox, as you know, is the gaming platform, which is particularly kind of Gen A-focused. It is worth 46 billion. And, I mean, it's been suffering recently, but it might be on the rebound. So this is a big thing. Right.

Can I just because there are some people who are utterly lost at this point. The reason we are talking about it is we have all these unusual little creatures, almost all AI generated, which are kind of play things for a generation of creators and a generation of consumers. And nihilist children. A nihilist children, which, of course, as we know, is all children. So Triple T, T, Tung-T, so her, I'm going to call him slash her. You're going to use triple T. Triple T.

As you say, Triple T was used in Roblox and used in various things. And the question that is now coming about is, can it be copyrighted? The reason that's the question is it's created by AI. The Indonesian creator of it took 15 minutes and seven prompts to create this character, which, by the way, he's not cheating. That's how all these characters are created. They're created by a series of prompts. It went out into the world.

hundreds of thousands of users shared it, used it, did completely new things, you know, created a world around it. It is now enormous. Does that Indonesian kid still own Triple T or more to the point? Do the large agencies who've paid that kid of some money own Triple T? Can you own something that you created in 15 minutes with seven prompts that is making hundreds of millions of pounds?

I mean, billions of views of this character and other Italian. brain rock characters. Just as predicted in Adam Smith, the wealth of nations. Do you know what? All exactly as predicted in capitalist hard books. You know what? I was rereading Descavatar just to see what Mark said to say about it. And there's a seal section just about Tung Tung Tung to her. And it says not to be read until 2026. And it actually has a weird, it's like a sausage, but that has tank wheels is the chapter heading. So that's where we are. These these things are thrown out there into the culture, they are co-opted by thousands of kids. The whole worlds are built around these characters, which one's married to who,

whose enemies of who, is it actually. They have fights, you know. To my mind, sort of quite a creative world, I would say. There's a lot I like about it. And also just how much it is meant as an absolute two fingers to all human adults. Exactly. Which is my favorite thing about it. But also to all celebrities.

Yeah. Because what they have done this generation is created a world of characters who are their own celebrities, who don't exist, who they can impose whatever they want on, project anything they want onto, can interact with each other, can build whole big soap storylines of these absurdist characters, of these absurdist memes. They can create anything they want out of them. There is a huge, huge, huge amount of money in it now. And that's the reason it's fascinating.

The absurdity of it is fascinating. creativity of it is fascinating, but the legality of it, I think, for us is even more fascinating because these things were created by AI. They were firstly created by AI and then created by fan culture. So who owns them? It's interesting the people who have inserted themselves into this. So there is a company called Momentum Lab. Their sort of backstory is they seem to have sprung out of the goodness of their heart, Richard, to take care of creators who create things in this kind of space and put things out in the world that become very popular and they become hugely viral to allow the original creators to benefit from that virality and indeed momentum labs to take their whatever percent.

I should point as Momentum M-E-M-E-E-Tum. Yeah. Which is clever. Yeah, super clever. And there's a games company called Do Big Studios who created that game that was on roadblocks called Steeler Brain Rock, which I remember I was telling you, I ended up telling you, because I was talking to you about grow a garden, which became this huge kind of runaway thing on even by the standards of Roblox games.

But what was coming up behind it was steal a brain rock, which is such a basic game. It's literally like running a gauntlet and just stealing other people's brain rot. I used to hear this wailing from upstairs from my daughter. And then one of her brothers saying, the game is called steal a brain rot. What did you expect me to do? So what if I've stolen your brain rot? Yeah. I said, oh my God, I can't get involved in any of this.

But I did sort of find it fascinating. As I say, Roblox is worth an unbelievable amount of money. you know, it's probably worth that half warners or whatever. It was worth about the same for a bit. It might be, the stock might be rebounding, it's not clear. But at a certain point, Steeler Brainrot had something like 26 million concurrent users. That means at any one time they had that, and that was their kind of peak. So it's interesting.

Momentum then said, do big studios put Tung Tung Tung Soha in this game. Triple T, T, along with all the other Braemrots. And they did it because they're going, I mean, they're all made of AI. So they're in public ownership. So, like plain green sleeves over an advert. Exactly. We can do exactly what we want. And then Momentum Lab said, no, you've got to pull it.

Momentum has been very much. The medicine son frontier of this story. And they said, you've got to pull it. Our creator has to benefit from it. They did pull it at first. And now they're like, no, we're putting them back in. And we're suing momentum to say you cannot copyright. It's certainly in the US.

It is global, this thing. It kind of particularly took off in South America, the brain. There's lots of kind of, it will be a global story and everyone's jurisdictions are different. But they're saying that there is insufficient human input into Tung Tung Tung Soha. You didn't think you'd be saying Tung Tung Tung So her this often a couple of years ago. By the way, one of my children is in the other's phone as this. So it's, yeah, yeah. One of the things I like about it is that people have become so obsessed with Tung Tung Tung Tung

Tung Soha that they're trying to, they've always tried to backwards engineer the exact prompts that we use. That's a whole subculture of the subculture is people saying, what did he type in to get this exact image out. And people have tried to sort of go back. It's like the key to all mythologies. They've tried to go back and try and work out what he typed in. Seven prompts. And they've tried to work out what they were.

Seven prompts, one billion dollars. Yeah. You do the math. And lots of people currently are doing the math. Yeah. Or over here they do the maths. What is interesting is, like a lot of these things, there isn't any case law. This will be, this ridiculous creature is going to be a test case as to what actually

you can copyright when it's AI generated. I find that quite fascinating. Yes. The other thing I think is very interesting is there's something just, I mean, the bit that to me is the most interesting is not even the legal. To me, it is that kind of howl of generational FU that like this represents. It's great. The first time, when you saw all these things,

and there was another one that came out, which I'm going to also talk about, Skibbidi Toilet. Oh, Skibbidi Toilet, yes. And when this came out, I remember, God, I remember when Skibbidi Toilett came out. God, do you remember? This is like cider with Rosie, isn't it? But for Skibbiddy Toilet. Well, because my children were showing to me.

Skibbidi Toilet with Rosie. And, God, I remember John Brown, who's brilliant, he was the showrunner of the franchise, saying, yeah, I mean, imagine how many more people have watched this in an episode of Succession, which he also wrote. Like, and let me tell you what it was. It was, like, it came out of nowhere. It became beyond massive with Genet, Skibbidi Toilet. This guy called Alexei Gerasimov created it. He's a Georgian guy. It is a sort of absurdist dystopian thing.

I mean, I don't know if it's a satire. It's a satire on like adults being able to understand anything that children are into. It's a story of a war. There are like lues with human heads in. And then there are other creatures which have cameras for heads or TVs for heads, something like that. Security cameras, that sort of thing. There's a war. That IP has now been skewer.

cooped up by someone called invisible narratives. But Garasimov is an illustrator. So he actually created... They say he's an EP. He's moved away from the sole creator. But it wasn't, it wasn't... That's not an AI thing. So it's a slightly different thing.

But he was by the end, he must have been using AI. He can post that often. I mean, he posted daily updates on this. But the creation of the original idea and original thought came out of his brain, as far as one can tell. Yes. But now there's a huge backlash. there because people are saying they've taken his creation away from him. You know, these people who are these kind of big agencies or these big like, hey, let me

represent you and take your kind of idea away from you. Yeah, welcome to showbiz. Yeah, welcome showbiz. The showbizification of brain rot is just sort of kind of nuts. But the thing I find most hysterical is the adult companies, not adult like that, but like the grownups in Hollywood saying, yeah, we need, we probably need to get in on this brain rot thing. There is a stealer brain rot movie in development, which when I told my children that,

They were like, how long does it take to make a movie? I was like, oh, I mean, it's a long time to make a movie, like two and a half years. And they're like, what? Like, how embarrassing. No one's going to care about the brain rock. Okay, so when I read about the Steeler Brain Rock movie being in development, I couldn't. It was like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like trying, I don't know, it's like trying to make a pop song about, I don't know, gravity or so. I don't know, it was such a sort of weird category mistake.

Like, you can't develop a movie for sort of two and a half years. then finally get it into theatres, whatever. They don't even want to go to the movies. They don't want to watch it like that. They want to watch it on a phone. This is such a category mistake. I can't believe you're making it. But there's a company called Story Kitchen

that sort of often develop stuff out of games doing it. Their statement is so embarrassing. You have to give a little statement to the trade papers. We're thrilled to bring Steeler Brain Rock to the big screen. Okay, why are you doing it? They wrote Nubini, and they signed it off, Nubini, Pitsunini, 6, 7. It's like, oh my God, this is so cringe.

I, luckily no children are reading the trade papers, but also no children are going to go to the theatres to watch this. I bet your daughter reads variety. Yeah, oh, she's that which you never offer. I love Story Kitchen. Story Kitchen. Welcome in. What are we mixing? What's that you smell?

Why, it's a little steel of brain rock movie. Sit yourself down, take the weight off your feet and enjoy. Yeah. You can put it in a hangar somewhere in the valley. I mean, absolutely. And I don't know where Skibbidi Toilet is currently being run out of. but it isn't Georgia anymore. And these people are trying to develop,

like they're developing masses of merchandising, they're just trying to sort of roll it out. But it's so against the original spirit of it, which is as a sort of, as I say, it's a sort of form of rebellion. It's like the thing that people like most in some ways is showing their parents this stuff so the parents can go, what am I raising?

What are we raising here? But isn't that everything? You know, everything gets co-opted. Everything starts, well not everything, but all sorts of things start as this little, the underground thing that, you know, all the people don't understand. Look at punk in the 70s and then look at the money everyone made out of punk in the late 70s. You know, look at EMI making money out of punk. I mean, it's just, it's, when I'm equating brain rock

with punk, you know what I mean. Oh yeah, but it's a similar spirit. Yeah, exactly. It's a similar spirit. And these things always get ruined. People will always jump in. And also, by the way, they will make some money off it because there will be a generation coming along afterwards who weren't at the forefront, who weren't at the vanguard, who just grow up liking the characters and looking at the characters and go, oh, I like that funny character, and they'll go and see a movie about it. But this first generation, this first wave of kids who we think are insane, this is like incredibly creative generation. What an incredibly brilliant thing to have in your generation, this ridiculous stuff that nobody above the age of sort of 13 has any understanding

of, that you yourself can constantly remix, that you yourself can be an active, part in and, you know, create and develop. What a lovely thing to have. It is like growing up with punk. It is. And it is like growing up with digital generation. Digital folklore that everyone sort of owns. It's difficult to, I suppose someone did start it off. It's very interesting. When you look at those, something you've just said has reminded me that there's so few films that have made over a billion, you know, or whatever. I can't remember how big the list is. Now, say it's 60 or something. But actually, only a few of those are a tiny few, like less than five, I think, are originals.

And one of them is Free Guy, which is that Ryan Reynolds movie. When I say it's original and it's not a franchise thing, when I saw it in a cinema, it's kind of like in a sort of gaming world. And once all the sort of Fortnite skins are getting thrown in near the end, children were like cheering in the cinema. They absolutely loved it. And it's sort of, it's quite hard to explain that that is what an original is that really speaks to people.

So I'm not saying that these films can't potentially, but there's something that is so antithetical to the spirit of the brain rock in the idea of like a Hollywood studio making a film about it. But how lovely that we're in a position now where we're defending the idealism of brain rot. Yeah.

And it is. There are so many of these characters, by the way. You cannot believe how many. There are more characters. I think your celebrity's point is very interesting. The idea that I remember someone else saying to me is like, oh, my children couldn't name a celebrity. They probably know the rock.

That's it. They could not name one. And the idea that they're, as you say, you control these people. They're not really interested in like waiting for celebrities to parcel out their exciting high-end entertainment projects to them. Obviously, there's things like Taylor Swift that transcend all of these things. But in general, they're not really interested in that. They want constant production. They want to be part of it.

They want it to be a sort of experience that you could generate your own stuff as well. Yeah. And it's like a Pokemon were alive. soap opera. It takes an awful lot of things that have come along, like collecting things, like what's new, what's next, what's coming next week, added to just this thing that you can interact with things. Hollywood and TV still talk about, oh, we should make more interactive, television TV that's interactive. You think you are so for that, I mean, that horse is not just bolted, that horse has lived a long, happy life and died at the age of 18 in a beautiful

meadow by a stream. I mean, it's long gone. This stuff, this remix culture, this creating your own stuff, this interactive culture. It is happening somewhere entirely different. And it's happening because an Indonesian kid saw a drum that wakes you up for Sahar, you know, the meal before Ramadan, and decided to put seven prompts into an AI thing. And that's where that's where that billion came from. It's, I find it, I think the reason we're talking about it is because I think if you just look at it at a glance, it seems absurd, it seems like AI slop, it seems like the end of culture.

And I think it's probably the beginning of something really interesting. We said before every generation, there are the same amount of creative people. Like your generation is no more creative than any other generation. So, you know, you were just born in the area you were born in, and you reacted to that and you created within the parameters of what you were shown. And this generation, there are a lot of hugely creative kids out there. What are they going to be coming up with? It's going to be crazy because they've been taught that they can do something

that we were not taught that we could do. You know, they have an extra club in the bag, you know, and I think it's fascinating. So, listen, of course it's mental. It's also fascinating from the legal point of view. I do remember that, you know, I once had a legal case against Elton John, who I literally loved, but we have since put up for these differences aside. But there was a legal case, and I wrote a tiny sort of like a fake diary entry, and he sued over it. By the way, there's absolutely no way he would ever have even seen it.

It was just like, you know, there's lawyers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone's seen something on page 87 of whatever. And we won the case, the Guardian, won the case, which was great. I was really pleased they actually fought it because it's just so expensive to do something like that. But I remember the QC, who we had at the time saying, oh gosh, there is so little case law in what we have that relates to irony and satire. And this is now a piece of about four pieces of case law that we have. And I was like, wow, my really stupid diary about Elton John has become significant in some way because then it, irony in satire have more protection in law than they had before because there's, there is a precedent.

And unbelievably, Tung Tung Tung Tung Soha is going to be like a test case for what you can copyright when created by AI. What can be copyrighted in this new way of creating culture and this kind of fan culture and, you know, how much can be. be assigned back to the creator and how much. I mean, it's really interesting that, again, I just find it always quite funny when something super absurd comes a piece of case law. One final question. Do you think there's a way that any adults listening to any adults listen to this? I don't know if any adults listen to this.

Any adults listen to this can find a way to enjoy Italian brainwreck or is it's very design meant to exclude? I think it's very design is meant to exclude. But for me, I mean, if you listen to this podcast, you put. probably quite like behind the scenes stuff. And so therefore, you can look at it as a cultural phenomenon. Yes, I think anyone who listens to this podcast could be like, yeah, I'm not going to be watching it every day and trying to generate my own stuff.

But I like to see that it's going on. I like to see that, you know, children still hate us. Rightly, rightly. And yeah, I think, yes, for sure. I think that that is something that anyone would be interested in. It is a massive cultural phenomenon. And you might as well take a look. Is it also something that the orc-right will at some point co-opt?

It's interesting. Why haven't they? Because you would think, wouldn't you? They do it with most things. Yes, and especially kind of absurdist and nihilist internet stuff. It's wide up this street. They haven't yet. I love that, you know, Tra-a-Dara-Tradda-a does not actually work for like Ben Shapiro or someone yet. But, you know, may eventually.

Oh, I cannot wait for this generation of kids. I mean, this is a great weapon to have. It's such a great weapon to have something that parents genuinely dislike. Not even their parents, but anyone in their 20s. I cannot wait until that generation of 45 and see what it is that's upsetting them. It will be amazing. It will come to you. It will come to you.

Shall we go to a break? And after that, we are talking about your next career move, which I'm fascinated to talk to you about exactly what you are doing next. And I would say it's an exclusive, but if we didn't get an exclusive on that, then what would we get an exclusive on? What are we doing out of here? Exactly. See, NMO. This episode is brought to you. by our friends at Lloyd's.

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Welcome back everybody to the rest of entertainment. Now, Marina, you, I was just reading last week, your last ever column for The Guardian. Yes. Which is where you used to work. I don't know if you know that. Wait? Wait, what? And I was doing something which you would never do, which is I looked at the comments.

And they were so positive, it was unbelievable. I felt like I had gone back to like 1992 or something. thing. There was a real sense of de-ream, things can only get better. Everyone was so thankful to you and everyone was but one of the things everyone was asking is what's Marina going to do next? And lots of people going, I presume she's going to another newspaper. I presume she's doing this, that or the other. So lots of people who are wondering, but we are going to reveal now exactly what you are going to do next, what form it takes and why. And it's not Italian brain rot. It's not, it may be. Okay. I just, you know, let's not rule it out. No, I'm launching something today where we're

recording on Monday in partnership with Goal Hangar, who make this great podcast with us. And it's called Always On. And it's going to, I know, we're naming after the nervous breakdown. It's going to give me. And it's one place for my writing, also my new YouTube show and various other sort of projects that are coming down the pipeline. And it's, you can go to marinahyde.com. It's free to subscribe. I'm going to keep it free for quite a long time because I want to see if people like it. And then maybe towards the very end of the year, make it. paid and a paid offering. So it will be writing. It's also videos. There's quite a lot there already. And it will be about entertainment and culture and politics and sport and, you know,

all my personal obsessions. Yeah. So essentially you've been writing two columns a week for a very, very, very long time. Doing for the Guardian who pay you a sum of money, it goes out. The Guardian sort of get the traffic from that. You get the lovely, you bask in the reflected glory of it. But this is far more, I mean, you're, you are, you are doing what we talk about a lot, which is you're sort of taking everything in-house. Well, that's why we are talking about, really, because it's, forget about me for a minute, but it's what this sort of move symbolizes and other people are doing it as well, I think is quite interesting. The idea in the old days that you could set up independently if you were a, a journalist or someone who was part of a legacy media

organization was just unthinkable. Like, you know, I am now, I suppose, bundling, as it were, I'm putting lots of my things all together. Someone once said to me, there's two ways to make money in media. Bundling and unbundling. I'm currently bundling. I look forward to the unbundling era. And the idea that is that bits of it sort of funnel into other bits of it. You're still doing the podcast, right? Sorry, I should have checked that very, very early on. Do you think I would ever leave this podcast? Don't be stupid. But it's interesting. because lots of people are making these kind of moves. And what I think is particularly interesting is that, you know,

you can't sometimes hear about the kind of big, splashy things. But there is a whole middle class, as it well, like the sign of any prosperous society is a sort of thriving middle class. Yes, a merchant class. Yeah, there's a whole middle class of people, as it were, who have left legacy titles and thought, well, I tell you what, specialists are particularly interesting, who have said, okay, I'm going to,

the journalism is now sort of part of the creator, me in some ways. Sometimes people feel like, oh, I might be a micro-influencer, but I have to see far better engagement doing it this way. So if you're an aviation expert, for example, rather than working for an aviation magazine, you literally, you have a site where people will take me. It's incredible. Some of the people I follow on substack or some of the, well, I'll talk about the different platforms and what they offer. So, but some of the people I follow are just total specialist, and you think, well, no legacy media title would ever get someone like, there's a person I follow called Casey Lewis. She's absolutely brilliant. She does

Gen A and Gen Z trends. I mean, if you how could you possibly have that as a correspondent in a newspaper, in a newspaper, media outlet, whatever? But it is so great. You get it almost every day from her and it's an amazing digest of all this stuff around it. Someone else I follow will, you know, do deep analysis of franchise box office. And it's so specialist. I don't know how many people could be interested in it, but enough to make this person

way more money than they could possibly have imagined. Well, like a niche magazine, you know, W.X, which used to be full of just hundreds of magazines, a very niche interest. But if people are, you know, happy to pay five pound for a magazine each month, it's a business. Yeah. And I suppose what drew me to do it.

So I was thinking, okay, I want to do this. What I do like is, I love more of a direct relationship with readers. I really like that. I love that you can do like, I'm going to do regular Q&As, things like that. I really enjoyed doing things like that. I bet you have. from YouTube, the great people who run YouTube in the UK, I love the data you get back and you get it as you know instantly in an ongoing basis. So you can see I've got sort of a couple of videos as a new one coming Batman City, but there's one already up there about tech bros and how they're changing the way they dress for quite an interesting reason.

And it's so interesting to see how to get the sort of feedback on all of that and the data on that. Now, so you leave the Guardian and listen, I'm assuming that other legacy media organizations, would have wanted your services. But I've, I have both presented and listened to this podcast for long enough to know that probably isn't the direction of travel anymore. So what made you think, though, I'm just going to do this myself? Well, yeah, no, you're right. I've, I've been really lucky in, you know, all over the years, and every year, some of the other titles would offer me jobs, which is very nice, but there was no way I was going to go to another title as I mean this sounds so kind of pretentious isn't it but I wanted to own my own value

I don't see why I would need to go to another title I can own it yeah you want to see you want to swim by yourself yes yeah and I've been around a long time and I back myself to do it and I don't need to be saying would it be possible for me to write about X today and then having some guy on the phone to me saying I don't really like what's happened in the third paragraph here it's like oh I tell you what, I think I'll just do it by myself, thank you. So that was, that was a draw. Wow. Not having some guy telling me they didn't like the third paragraph. Uh, no offense. I would have called it gloves off. Marina Hyde, gloves off. I would call it Marina Hyde unshackled. And the, the picture would be like you, but like with gaffer tape over your mouth as if like, what you're about to say is so

dangerous. Oh my voice. Yeah. I can't stand that. Have you noticed that I haven't said that? I can finally say what I like. Don't be ridiculous. I said what I liked at the Guardian. There's absolutely, I cannot stand that play. I, it was. I, it was. I cannot stand that play. I, I, I, it It makes me feel it's so mortifying. I did it. Particularly when people who leave the BBC do it. It's like, you've had a great living off those people for like 25 years. And it's a wonderful organisation.

And I don't really, and you know what? They always turn out to have nothing to say. I definitely think that there's no particular reason that opinion has to be delivered in a thousand word chunks. And it can easily and be, and really excitingly, I've made a few videos already. And I really enjoy the process of being able to embed all the clips and funny kind of bits of footage. and I don't know, movie clips and everything in, so that it's quite a sort of complete world and you don't have to click out to see what something's about. It's all embedded in it in a weird way.

So I'm enjoying doing those a lot. That's something totally different that I'm having to learn from scratch. But it's fun, again, it's fun to learn new things and to say, how does this work and what makes people stay watching it? And, you know, how do I structure this? Because it's different to structuring things where you can kind of bury a lead a bit further down. You can't do that. You've got to say things at the top. And I don't know, I like learning the rhythms and the new dynamics of different ways of presenting the same thing.

It's all opinion in the end. Yeah, that's what I wanted to talk about. So you, so this is, funny enough, in the Italian brain, I was talking about creative people and creative people in every generation that they follow the same paths usually, which is what's next, what's interesting. If I'm going to be doing X amount of work, is there a way of increasing the revenue I get from that X amount of work. That's sort of how you build a creative career. So you've been writing two columns a week for 25 years anyway. So you're going to keep doing that. There's nothing that's going to stop you writing two columns a week. Oh my God, I can't stop it. It's a compulsion. Of course you can't. And so at some point you do have to say, okay, what's the best way for me to do that? Why do I enjoy

doing it? I enjoy doing it because I like, you know, to explore the world around me and I like to interact with people. What's the best way for me to do that? And what's the best way for me to have control over that? What's the best way for me to grow that in a direction that I want to, where there isn't another stakeholder who wants a certain thing that I don't want? And there is now that platform that allows you to do that. It's scary because you're turning down a salary, right? You're turning down a salary. You're going to zero pounds. You're doing exactly the same amount of workers before, and you're building something. But we got to the stage in our culture where that feels for a lot of journalists like a risk that's worth taking.

Well, yeah, it is scary, but I want to be scared again because I feel that making, doing things, I've done various things over the last few years. I started screenwriting. I did this podcast and I did all of those primarily. Well, first of all, because I was massively interested in them, but I did consciously say I want to be scared again each time because I feel that being scared about things, first of all, even though you're quite tired because you're doing, tend to be doing more work, it makes you feel younger because you are not in a comfort zone and you don't feel

that, and I feel that I enjoy being out of the comfort zone and learning a new thing and thinking, okay, how does this work? How am I going to make it work? Backing myself, I guess, the other thing you said was yes, you know, you want more control and you think, why can't I own my own value? And I'm afraid that's what I really thought, which is I would like to own my own value and I would like to be in, have more control and put things in one place and see what I can build. Yeah. Because I'm interested in building something. It's exciting to take a risk.

And it's also exciting to build something and to think that, you know, further down the line, you can bring up other people perhaps via that, which I think that is of particular interest to me. So I have to say that I am really excited about it. Me too. It's called Always On. You can find it at marina hide.com. I've already done a lot of writing. I've done some writing about celebrity traitors, the 21 types of TV detectives you can see on celebrity traitors. Tom Hiddleston, Richard, is on a press door that I'm hugely enjoying at the moment for his Everest thing.

And, yeah, so I've written about him. When I left The Guardian, I actually, I've said a quote saying, I was so grateful for my, because it's 25 years there. But, you know, ultimately, we're all in the audience business. And it was a great privilege to serve that one. and I do regard myself as being in the audience business. If you write opinion, if you write something different in newspapers, if you do investigative reporting, it's totally different. But if you write opinion, you are in the audience business.

Yeah, you're in the entertainment business. Yeah, ultimately. Yeah, exactly. And, oh, well, listen, I'm very excited. Okay, let's finish today talking about Ari Emanuel, probably the greatest agent in Hollywood, certainly the most famous one. Anyone who watched Entourage, Ari Gold, Jeremy Piven's character,

is based on RRIE. Emmanuel. In a much earlier iteration of him. And now, you know, they own UFC. They own, he's enormous. He's a loss. And the reason that he has been in the news is he's written a memoir called Roll the Calls. And it's sort of his entire history of working in Hollywood and movie off in the world of agencies. And everyone who's read it said it's, it's full of him being angry about other people, which makes a very entertaining reading. Wrote it with James Murringer, who wrote Spare with Prince Harry and Shoe Dog with Phil Knight and open with Andre Agassiz, three of the best non-fiction books.

He's the market leader, obviously, only the best for Ari. The best of the best of the best. So Ari has written this book, and Hollywood is a buzz, because it's very gossipy and he doesn't pull any punches. If you want to know the sort of man he is, here's a couple of quotes. Ari says, rage is the air that I breathe. My needle is in the red zone from the moment I wake up. And also if you want to know what a great writer, Jay, it's Morringer, is.

Ari says this. He says, my head is for the battery acid and bumblebees. So that's who he is. So he represents Oprah and the Rock and Larry David. He used to represent everyone. It's everyone. They're enormous. I mean, also CAA, which is the sort of their rival, but they are an enormous, hugely powerful.

He used to represent Donald Trump when Donald Trump was the apprentice. He got rid of him in 2016 when Trump. became president, although he still has some connections. Anyway, the reason we're talking about it is there was a scandal in America this week. This book, Roll the Calls, went in number two on the New York Times bestseller list. Okay, so he's a New York Times bestseller. A couple of days later, publishers weekly bring out their list, which is much more like our Nielsen figures. It's sort of the real sales figures. New York Times is slightly more opaque as to how they work it out. Publishers weekly came out, and it was nowhere in the top 25.

Oh, can you buy your way onto a best seller list, Richard? Well, the interesting thing is, is if you look at the actual figures he sold, I think, just about 18,000 hardbacks in his first week. It's not terrible, not great. I mean, it's a perfectly reasonable... Let's be honest. He's the most powerful person in entertainment, but also no one normal knows who he is or has ever heard of him. Exactly. So 18,000 is good.

It's not like it's not like it's Prince Harry. Or someone writing about Princess Diana, which just did unbelievable business last week. I mean, over 100,000 in a week. Anyway, so he sells this 18,000, which should see him in Publishers Weekly at number four, but he is nowhere to be seen on Publishers Weekly. Because he's been excluded for what? Well, they have said that there are a significant amount of bulk buys of this book, which triggers their algorithm, which says this is not allowed in the charts.

So the allegation is that he or somebody in his employees, or an agency have been bulk buying the book to kind of stuff the figures. There are certain bookshops that report to the lists for the New York Times. For the New York Times. And publishers know these. I'm not saying that this is what's happened here. But there have been previous stories, which I know you're going to get to, where people have known which stores report.

And you make a bulk order from that store and some other store. So you can kind of, you can basically inflate it that way. Yeah, exactly. And usually in New York Times, if they think there's evidence of bulk buying, they will put a little dagger sign. Yeah, yeah. So they'll put you in the list, but there's a little dagger sign. Some of the names who have been accused of bulk buying, it won't shock you. They come from a certain demographic.

So Pete Hexeth, Ted Cruz, Donald Trump Jr., his book, the Republican National Committee, spent $100,000 bulk buying that book to put it in the New York Times best seller list. But as I say, with a little dagger next to it. Now, Ariah Manuel. Trump himself in the 80s. The art of the deal is there's various arguments that say that, yeah. It's always reported that Trump bought tens of thousands of copies of the art of the deal in the 80s to make it into this kind of illusion of an amazing kind of cultural artifact. Well, that's why I want to talk about this, because I want to talk about the difference between a bestseller with a capital B and a bestseller with a little B.

So if you at any point in the UK are in any of the Sunday Times top 10 list, which is hardback fiction, hardback, nonfiction, paperback fiction, paperback fiction, paperback nonfiction. If you are ever for a single week, even at number 10 on that list, you are a Sunday Times bestseller. And you, for the rest of your career, can write Sunday Times bestseller on the cover of any book you want to do. And everybody does. Everybody does, because it sounds great. And equally, if you are ever in that New York Times top 20 for the New York Times bestseller list, you can be a New York Times bestseller for the rest of your career, forever and ever and ever and ever. a thing that you can have on the front cover of any book that you do. As I say, if you're

talking at a conference, you can do it if you're trying to sell the film rights or something, it's a New York Times bestseller. And that lasts forever. And I've said before on this, if you do it in more than one territory, you're an international bestseller. And you can say that. You cannot write bestseller if you have sold five million books, but you've never spent a week in that top ten. You can't do it. If in your first week you didn't sell like crazy, but you just sold it a lot, you know, sold a little, a little for years and years and years. You are not a capital B bestseller, you're a small B bestseller, which just means you are one of the bestselling books. If you're a capital B, you are a bestseller, which is New York Times,

and which is Sunday Times as well. So what's happened with Ari Emanuel here? There are lots of reasons why you might bulk buy a book, is the truth, especially if you're someone like Ari Emanuel and you've got lots of clients or, you know, you've got a big company and you want to, you want to buy it and give it all those gifts for people. That's absolutely allowed to do it. CEOs do this quite a lot. If they've got a book out, it's a whole thing. Yeah, you go to a conference and there'll be like one on every single chair. And, you know, if you're smart at all, you will buy that through a store that is, the reports.

The reports. The list. Yeah. So there are ways of doing it. It's not always necessarily a kind of, you know, someone shady has gone into a store and bought 40 copies here, 40 copies here, 40 copies here. Sometimes that does happen. And we're not suggesting that's what's happened here. But certainly, it sounds like 18,000 individuals have not thought,

oh, I'd like the sound of that book, his $25 and gone into a store and bought it and read it and liked it. And that's why he's a bestseller. So there's lots of ways you can do it. Now, you can definitely game the system in different ways. So the most famous one was a writer called Larry Serum, who wrote a book called Handbook for Mortals. And this was back in the glory days of Twitter

when Twitter was very good at investigating things. Is this like a Y.A title? A YTA title, yeah. And there was a book called The Hate You Give by Angie Thomas, which is a huge best seller in YA. circles and everyone loved. And then one week, this book by Lari Sayron, is at number one. Again, weirdly, with about 18,000 copies, so very similar to unroll the calls. And the world of YA Twitter got into an investigative mode, because it is, of course, possible to have an

unexpected hit. But usually you'll know that it's going to be hit in a couple of weeks beforehand, because there'll be buzz building or there'll be reviews building. It's like the tracking of movies or something like that. Yeah. You've sudden people are talking about it. You start to see the sentiment or you start to see like someone has come out and said, oh my God, this new book is coming out or a big website has said this new book is coming out. And so an unknown author, it happens pretty much every week. An unknown author will be catapulted into the top 10 because something has happened, which meant everyone's buying this book. With this book, the handbook for mortals, there was none of that at all. It was published by a publisher who

had never published a book before. And incidentally never published a book again. anyone who read it was saying, and again, they're such a lovely community, the YA community. So you watch loads of videos about this and no one's saying, this is terrible. They're quite a monstrous community, the YA community, aren't they? I mean, they will hunt you down and punish you like no one else on the internet. I think if you wrong them, for sure, but I think they're supportive of each other. Anyway, so she had written this book, and so people started doing their research into how this might have been. catapulted to number one in the New York Times list.

So they were ringing around lots of the NYT bestseller reporting bookstores and said, has anyone rung you about this book? They said, oh, yes, yeah. And there was a couple of bookstores one in Las Vegas. They said, oh, yes. Someone rang and said, do we report to the New York Times? And we said, yes. And they said, could I buy 87 copies?

Right. Wow. This pattern was repeated, you know, over and over again. So this book was catapulted to number one. The IMDB page, which is still there, it said, oh yes, it's being adapted for a movie, and the author was going to play the star of it. And also, you can see exactly what was going on is they'd knocked off this book and wanted all the accoutrements of having a hit. And so this is going to be the first in a kind of five-part series, and they're all going to be made into movies, and I'm going to be the star of it.

And it was all based on nothing. It was built on nothing. She said, she later said, no, it's just an innovative business model. I just thought I was going to be selling so many conventions. I thought I would buy them. I think, okay, listen, I get it. So she sort of denied it, but you can do it. You can buy yourself onto those lists,

but you are almost always found out if you do it in such a way. It's almost impossible to go from nothing, a standing start to get on those lists. Because Ari Emanuel, again, it's not clear that this has occurred, but the fact that it has even been written about as a possibility, given how powerful he is, it's quite hard that people must have some form of conviction about it if they are writing it because he, this is not somebody that you can just drag across Twitter.

Well, what they're writing is that publishers weekly did say that it triggered our warning thing, which means that we've left it off the list. So you can definitely report that. I mean, you can then start looking into what publishers weekly's algorithm says about bulk orders. I really wanted to talk about this book, by the way, on the podcast. Yeah. Because I'm obsessed with him. And I rang, I wrote to the publisher in the UK for honestly, about every week for the whole summer saying,

anything yet, can I have it yet, can have a look at it yet, we'd really like to do something about it in the podcast. And in the end, it was like offered to me the day it came out. It's like, don't worry, I've already bought it off Amazon. Anyway, I guess we're now talking about it on the podcast. Yeah, but for all the wrong reasons. Well, sort of. Although, you know, I do really want to read it because it does sound amazing in lots of different ways. But the key thing is that anyone who does bulk by to try and get in that top ten,

which is not what we're suggesting he's done, it's just saying that's what publicers weekly have suggested. Anyone who does do it is because of that prestige. It's because even if you're at number 10 in the UK or number 20 in the States, forever and ever, you are a New York Times bestseller or you're a Sunday Times best seller. But there are lots of ways because it's so important to be on that list, because it can really make or break a career. And because, funnily enough, you don't have to set an awful lot to get on the list in the UK. There are certain weeks. I mean, now, this time of year, you have to set a lot of copies to get anywhere near any top 10. But in kind of, you know, February, March, you know, you can sell maybe 1,200, 1,200, 1,200 hardbacks and get in that top 10.

So if you're a publisher and you've got a book that's going to sell 800 copies, you know, getting another 300 copies could make your author forever and ever and ever a Sunday Times best study. You can have it on the cover of all those things. That's why you see so many authors doing book tours in the first week of a book coming out. It's all about that first week. Yeah, well, we've both just done it. Yeah, it's all about that first week. You know, you want to hit big and hit quickly. And if you can do a, go around independent bookshops all around the country

and sell three or 400 copies across, you know, 10, 15, 20 events, that could make the difference between being number 12 and being number 9. And so that's why lots and lots of authors will do that. Some of those independent bookshops will agree to put the figures through in the week of publication, even if it wasn't, the event itself wasn't necessarily in that week. Yeah, you can all pre-sales count towards your first week of sales. So anything that happens before publication week, that all counts for your first week, which is why authors are always asking you to sort of pre-order and stuff like that,

because it does make a huge difference. If you find yourself in one of these big subscription boxes, there's romanticies subscription boxes and fantasy ones and crime ones, there have been lots and lots of number ones, which are, because you're in that, you'll see something to sales 12,000 copies because it's in a subscription box, which are these things that you subscribe to, and they do really very, very beautiful covers and, you know, sprayed edges and things like that. And they choose their books incredibly carefully.

That's sort of a route into the top ten as well. And equally, if, you know, Tesco's or the big supermarkets, you know, put you in their book club, that would be a route into the top ten. But again, it's very, very hard to get onto those lists because they know what their customers like. So it has to really deliver. So there isn't a shortcut, really. there isn't like a simple shortcut into that top 10. Hype doesn't do it.

Interviews don't do it anymore. You know, TV interviews won't do it anymore. But that is just about being a Big Bee bestseller. Almost all of the books at the top of the list now are not that. Week 2 is the really important part of books because that is word, everything is word of mouth. Every trick in the book you can throw out week one. Like box office hold. Like box office hold.

Like, for instance, you know, yeah. You look at the correspondence by Virginia Evans, which is sold over. half a million copies now and it's just doing insane numbers. And that, you know, didn't go crazy in its first week. It's just one of those books that everyone read and everybody loved. And that is a bestseller with a small bee. And if you have a bestseller with a big bee, you get prestige. You can write bestseller for the rest of your life on the front of your book. If you are a bestseller with a small bee, you get loads of money. And people love your books and you get loads of readers. And you get to write loads and loads more books. So being a bestseller with a small bee is much more

important. But if you are high profile, if you are somebody who a publisher has spent a lot of money on, then getting a best setter with a big B can be very, very, very important. Any recommendations? Yes, I keep seeing slightly kind of lukewarm reviews of the social reckoning. And I loved it so much. I thought it's great, which is the Aaron Sorkin follow up to the social network, Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg, Mikey Madison. I absolutely adored it. If you like Aaron Sorkin, I watched this yesterday. Kieran loved it from start to finish. Yeah.

I felt like my only criticism, I would love it to have been done for TV because I think if you do it for Netflix, there many more people see it, ideally before the midterms. And I think that it would, it's not going to make, and I mean, it's effectively bombed. But if you've done it over three nights or they'll never agree to three now, but they might have agreed to, they could split it down or have done it in a slightly different way.

I just think more people would see it. If you're going to the cinema to watch a film about Facebook, you already share these views about Facebook. For sure. I would love discovery for this particular story to reach beyond the converted. Yes. But yeah.

I made the terrible mistake of going along wishing to be entertained by a film. And I hugely was. Again, there's five or six lines in there that you want to take out a notebook and write them down. She just said, God, you've done it again. Just put something so beautifully and so personal. And I thought the performances are amazing. Billy Magnuson in that movie, I thought was unbelievable.

Bill Burr as well. He doesn't, who hasn't acted an awful lot. Anyway, I thought it's great. Can I also sort of put in a word, we talked a while ago about strictly and bedding in the new presenters. I think they are bedded in. I thought this week's show was absolute perfection. I thought I thought it's brilliant. I said you have to producers know what they're doing.

Producers have a plan. And I think it's really firing on all cylinders now. And for you, I'm going to do your recommendation for you, which is your new endeavour always on, which is your columns, pieces to video, loads, just loads and loads of things that come out of your brain on any given day all in one place. And we can find it at marinahyde.com. Well, that's my recommendation as well. Oh, thank you. So this week we have a Q&A, which will be on Thursday, but we also have two. two more Traitors' Reaction episodes after Thursday and Friday's episodes.

Thanks, everyone has been so lovely about those. They've gone, actually, gangbusters. Yeah, I know, it's incredible. I'm really glad we've split it down to per episode now. I mean, you have to. There's so much to talk about. Yes, there is. But the amount of messages I get really sociologically kind of forensic examinations of group dynamics on that show.

But it's, it's, those are lots of fun to do, right? So much fun. Do one on Thursday, do one on Friday. Q&A as well. and our bonus episode this week is the latest episode of our history of Big Brother with Kate Lauder and Tim Hinks, the man behind it all. Right. See you. That's a lot.

I assume it's see you tomorrow. There's a lot going on. Talk about always on. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it's a busy time. This is like our World Cup celebrity traitors. Yeah, it's like we're like Gary, Micah and Allen in New York.

We need a kitchen island. Oh, sweet. It's like tap us all over. Yeah. All right. See you next time. See you next time. Amazon has everything you need to deliver joy to everyone on your list,

like your Uncle Ricky, who made every single one of your wedding photos unforgettable, because his fly was open. So get him a three-pack of new underpants he'll really love. And get a head start on holiday shopping with low prices on gifts everyone wants, like the latest toys and housewares, and the gifts they need, like underpants. We've got you covered, Ricky, literally. That brought you WonderVision.

I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. On October 14th, the Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy.

Streaming October 14th, only on Disney Plus. Hello, I'm Marina Hyde, host of the rest. is entertainment and let's face it, if you have heard me on the show, you will know that I am always on. Now, I have tried switching off and not listening to all the news or not watching all the videos on the internet, but unfortunately, I just can't. So why not join me for my new show, titled Always On? It is home to my writing and also my new YouTube show. And each week I'm going to be sublimating all of my thoughts on culture, entertainment, politics, sports, media, into comment across YouTube, substack, marinahide.com and socials.

So wherever it feels best to talk about something or to have a laugh about it, most importantly, I will be there. Imagine the bat signal going up. I don't know that we need this new superhero, but we've got to. You can subscribe now by searching Always On with Marina Hyde on Google. Always on YouTube, always on marinahyde.com. Always on with me, Marina Hyde. Never off, never off.