The Rest Is Entertainment - BBC Content Boss on Tim Davie, Traitors and Strictly's Future

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Kate Phillips is one of the most important people in British entertainment. As Chief Content Officer at the BBC, she’s been at the heart of the institution’s creative output for over a decade and she’s responsible for many of the BBC’s most beloved shows, including Strictly Come Dancing, The Traitors and Gladiators. Richard Osman and Marina Hyde interview Kate about Tim Davie, the Celebrity Traitors, and the future of Strictly.Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.comFor more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.comVideo Editor: Charlie Rodwell + Adam ThorntonAssistant Producer: Imee MarriottSenior Producer: Joey McCarthySocial Producer: Bex TyrellExec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. Every December we return to our favourite festive routine revisiting beloved Christmas films as tradition demands and with the Skyglass TV it almost feels like you've stepped into one. From love actually to the holiday and elf, it's the one time of year we all agree that re-watching feels like coming home. It's comfort cinema, snow, sparkle and the annual reminder that Colin Firth once learned Portuguese for love.

Skyglass makes it feel spectacular. Christmas threw a director's lens, glossy, golden and impossibly perfect. Every frame alive in 4K, every glow adjusting in real time. Built-in Dolby Atmos turns the gentlest carol into surround sound spectacle. Every note filling the room like the season itself. Just say Christmas and Skyglass lines up your festive favourites in one place. The gift every living room deserves. Discover the Skyglass TV. Visit Sky.com.

Requires relevant Sky TV subscriptions. Content may vary. Broadband recommended minimum speed, 30 megabits per second. 18 plus, UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hi. And I'm Richard Osman. Hello Marina.

Hello Richard. Now we've got a very special guest today. We have. It's not just the two of us in the studio, is it? No, it is not. We have with us the BBC's chief content officer, Kate Phillips. Hello, Kate. Hello.

Hi, everyone. Really, really pleased to be here. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for coming. Now, Kate is probably responsible for more of what people watch day-to-day than anybody else in Britain, I would say. With that, and listen to and everything to all of the BBC services. And so when we asked for questions, we had, I'm going to say, a deluge of questions. Yes.

And some good ones as well. Great. Kate, did you admit, should we just kick off? And listen, I apologise for some of the swearing that our listeners do. No, everyone's been so lovely. We're going to start with something topical because you agreed to do this before the recent there's been some shenanigans at the BBC recently. I don't know if you know that. I don't if you know you're being sued for one billion dollars. Shannon Hughes says, what is the

atmosphere like at the BBC now with Tim Davy resigning? What's his time up after so much scrutiny and press coverage? It's definitely been a tough few days for the BBC. That's undeniable. I think we've literally said that at any point in the last 30 years. Yeah, well, that's true. Yes. I think particularly recently, we were all very shocked when Tim and Deborah Turneris are ahead of news resigned because for me personally, I am a huge admirers of them. They have been incredible colleagues, great friends, and I know no one who has worked harder or cared more about the BBC and making sure that it's of value to everyone in the UK. That is at their core. And it was a real shock when they resigned. And in typical Tim manner, he rung me

and told me personally and it was a bolt from the blue and I just think he is an amazing leader and he will be very hard to replace and I think everyone at the BBC is feeling great sadness that they've gone

because we're very proud of everything we do there and two of our most talented and brilliant leaders are stepping down. You know, as we know it is the most trusted news organisation in the whole world

so imagine how bad last week must have been for the second most trusted news organisation except no, because we're the only country who tells our things apart like this is what I would like to think. And is it tricky working at the BBC? We all know that public service is wonderful, but there is this sense, and I felt that with Tim, that you're constantly under scrutiny. And it feels to me like maybe that was a thing that pushed him over the edge. You just thought that there's other jobs that I could be doing.

And I've spoken to him about the BBC, and I genuinely believe how much he loved it. and how much he did for it. Do you think maybe it was just one thing too many? I think we are under a lot of scrutiny at the BBC, I think more than any other broadcaster, but rightly so, we're funded by the public and I always say we are utterly accountable. And when we get something wrong editorially or something comes into question, it should be questioned and looked at. I think Lisa Nandy spoke about warning against sustained attacks on the BBC. So for me, yes, we should be scrutinised.

Yes, we're accountable and we should be upheld when we don't get it right. But in the spirit of making the best broadcaster in the world even better, it's as simple as that. And that's what we should strive for. I've just got a little thing before we get until I'm next to be a question because it's made me think of that. Do you, I mean, you would drive yourself mad doing this. Do you ever try and think, what cultural next blow across my door? So do you look at what you're about to put out and think, I wonder if it will be this that blows up? Or is it always just something you totally didn't predict?

And then it just becomes the biggest dominant news story. Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's a bit of both. I mean, we are very proud of our content, and I don't think we want to sanitise it for fear of, you know, people not liking it. There's this great line that indifference is the enemy, not contempt. And I think that is a good line because I think we stand by our content

and, you know, the BBC mantra of inform, educate and entertainers and everything we do. But yes, sometimes you can be a bit blindsided by something and think, oh, right, okay. But you're just, you're prepared for anything at the BBC and you're right, Marina. I can wake up in the morning and by the time I go home at night, it's a very different day to the one I thought I was going to have. Enough about politics. Let's talk about entertainment. I felt for you when all the BBC stuff happened, because you just had celebrity traitors, which you were one of the first big advocates of such a huge massive success. And you had about maybe two days to enjoy that before this all happened. So let's start talking about

formats and shows like that. Mike from Leeds has a question. Thank you, Mike. Hello, Richard Marina and Kate. Oh, that's nice. Hello. Hi. Hi, Mike. Inclusivity. Yeah. He says the BBC has had great success recently with big entertainment formats like the traitors and race across the world and their celebrity versions. How are these large show scales developed or sought out by the BBC? What is the process for spotting or nurturing a potential hit format? Essentially, what is your job in some ways. So I think one of the great things about working for a public broadcaster funded by the public is that is literally our jobs as commissioner to give the audience the best shows. We're not a commercial organization. We don't have to worry about

advertising funding. It is about what do the audience want to watch? If you want to know how the traitors came about, it is quite interesting. So we've had the pandemic and I was very conscious of a really tough time that millions had been through. So we wanted programs that brought audiences together, something that collectively would be popular. I've talked before about the three Gs and by that, I mean three generations. What is a program that kids, parents and grandparents would watch together? So the traitors was developed by two very talented brains in Holland originally. It had been on in Holland. It hadn't knocked it out the park. I think it had done okay. I mean, Richard, you know all this. I know that your knowledge is extraordinary on the

traitors, but someone on my team, Saida, she was talking to a friend at NBC, Ed, and they thought, is there a show we can do together because they're expensive these shows? So is there a show we could co-fund with another broadcaster? And that's happening much more often. That happens much more often now, yeah. So then they would have it exclusively in America. We'd have it exclusively in the UK, but the creators would hold on to the format rights, which is important for us at the BBC, that people own their IP. And Ed talked to Saida about this show in Holland called The Traders. So Saida came to me to talk to me about it.

And I remember when it was first pitched, the instinct I had was, I'm sorry, we know who the traitors are. Wouldn't you want to play along? You know, you're in saying you want the audience to plan Goss. And they said, no, no, no, it's more fun when you know. Of course, you're right, because you see the duplicitous behaviour. So we thought it was sounded exciting. Then they were looking at filming it in Costa Rica.

Oh, really? That is true. They were looking at Costa Rica as a location. Claudia's outfits would have been so much worse. I don't think Claudia would have liked wearing outfits of Costa Rica. No, she would have hated her. So I then went to the then chief content officer, Charlotte Moore, who was a brilliant chief content officer.

And I said to her, I literally said this. I said, I've got this show, Charlotte. It's a bit of a punt. And everything is a pun. You know that, Richard. You can do all the audience research you like, but ultimately you're holding hands with the indie and jumping in and hoping it works.

It's a bit of a pump, but there's something different about it. And what I liked about it was its distinctiveness. I've never seen it before as a television show. Yes, there were sort of parlor games that were played like this. And Charlotte, God love her, literally took me on that. And then at the BBC, we liked. to spend money in the UK and we like to do portrayal across the UK

so Charlotte came back to me and said well the good news is I think I found you the extra money because I was head of entertainment then and I sort of spent all my money so I was going to Charlotte you're always asking for more money and Charlotte said well good news I think about entertainment but we would like you to make it in the UK

so then I had to call Studio Lambert and NBC so Studio Lambert are the production company and how does that work so if if I was an ordinary, just normal person on the street and had seen that Dutch show, I'm not going to be the one that's making it. So did you talk to Studio Lambert?

Did they come to you? You'd worked with them before on lots of things, presumably. Yeah, they make race across the world for us, of course, which they do brilliantly. But yes, so they had the rights for to make it in America and the UK. So Studio Lambert were their right. Yes. They take the rights to make it. And that is a really good point, actually, because often when you do television programs,

is it a great format, but it is a lot about execution. and having a team that know how to make that. And one of the reasons traders are so great is because it's got incredible people working on it. But yeah, so I then had to ring Studio Lambert and NBC and say, how do you fancy a Scottish castle? And they, of course, I think the Americans love a bit of that. And it's really interesting with the show

because a lot of stars have to align. So that worked well. Then we were looking at hosts and Alan coming had been signed to do the American one. So I thought, well, Alan's known here. and, you know, he's a popular Scottish actor. So we did actually, full disclosure, ask Alan if he would do it. But he couldn't do it with our dates because America were filming first and then we were going and he had another job so he couldn't do it.

So then we were thinking who else and Studio Lambert had got a good list of names. And I just thought Claudia, because I've worked with her on Strictly. And the thing about Claudia on Strictly is she's brilliant on that show, but she's brilliant because she's interested in people. more than the dancing. She's about the people and the contestants and what's happening. So I run Claudia

and I rung her up and I said and she's a good friend and she's always open to sort of new challenges. So I said, Claudia, I've got the show. Before you say anything,

it's the two things you hate. You've got to leave your home and it's in the countryside and she was like, oh no, no, no, no. You know how I forgot about that. I said, look, I'm going to ask the production team

to send you a copy of the Dutch version, see what you think. She watched that and she was in straight away. But did I know that her clothes were going to become such a big thing? Or it would get so sort of camp and gothic, all that it was scheduled so well as well. I think scheduling, you know, big credit to them to Lindsay Curry and his team because they, when we put the first step out, they then said we'd like to drop the second one straight away. And that was like, what? Because I'm of the old school sort of apprentice once a week, but they said, no, no, we think, yes, we need to put people in and then we're going to strip it and do these three Eps a week. And that made me really nervous,

but it was absolutely the right call. And I think so everything, marketing did a great campaign press. So everything comes together. You watch it. You've got all the tapes. So you know what the show is. You've known from start to finish. So you must have had. Firstly, what was your confidence about the show that you've been delivered? And secondly, at what point did you think, oh, the audience has started to work this out as well? So that, again, good question, because often you watch a show and we've all been involved in shows that actually have been really good, but they haven't found an audience. So when you watch a show, you watch it on your laptop in the office.

And of course, that's a very different experience to watching it at home, my friend. So I watched the first two Epps and thought, oh, no, this is good. You literally, when you watch the first step of something, your heart is in your mouth going, please be good, please be good, it's good. So I'm like, wow, this is something special. I do remember another story for you, Stephen Lambert ringing me up, after I watched, he's the guy who runs Studio Lambert, after I watched three Eps and said, the castle that we filmed at, if you want it for series two, we need to put a deposit down now

because it's a wedding venue. Now, where is that play? What a player. What a player. Such a landing. But he did say you need to put a significant amount of money down now to secure it. And NBC, I've spoken to them and they will. And so of course I rung NBC. And NBC said, no, no, they said you were putting the money down. That's fine, but that's absolutely... So you're Americans, but incumbent upon you. Yes, and I would do the same if I was Stephen. But I remember, normally you wait for a show to transmit

or at least do some audience testing on it before you commissioned a second series. And I remember sitting there thinking, what do I do? It's good, but I've had other good shows and found audience. And then I just rung them back and said, yeah, put the money down. And I didn't tell any of my bosses. Is there a point of which you just buy the castle, Kate? Is that a point now at which you just buy the castle? They always say that about, I think, the apprentice back in the

day. They should have bought a luxury house back in the day 20 years ago. That's like with Avalon. Just buy the taskmaster house. It's really small. I know. The taskmaster house. But yeah, but so, so I knew it was good. But I think when it first transmitted the very first series, it didn't get huge numbers overnight. No, it built. It built. With anything new like that, it's really, it just built. And then by the end, you had to watch it on the night. And word of mouth is key, I think. I think often, particularly, well, actually all audiences. Sometimes they don't want to be told that they're going to trust a friend more than they are us. So that word of mouth build is really key. But it's easier to catch up on

as well when there aren't millions of episodes a week. When there were three, people felt like, okay, I can join the bandwagon. Yeah. And then celebrity traitors. So, you know, lots of people go, oh my God, they're doing a celebrity version of this thing. How did that come about? Were you certain about doing that? And at what point you must have seen that and you must have gone? oh okay I think this was the right thing to do yeah well I mean it's interesting that Claudia wasn't keen so she didn't she didn't want to do a slav version she wanted to rest the format of the civilians way yes but she's very protective of it and Claudia is all in if you yeah if you go in the dressing room that Claudia has in

a traitors castle she has feed she has screens she's watching it all the time she is in Claudia I've never seen a presenter so invest in show so she was very protective she was reluctant I think the good thing we did was because we had civilian versions first, I think when we started booking the celebrity one, they just wanted to play the game. If you'd had a celebrity version first, you wouldn't have got the names you did. So, I mean, yes, the names were fantastic. And it was the mix of names as well. And who knew that Joe Marla was going to be such a star and actually cleverer than any of them at seeing who the traitors were. But I suppose the thing I always remember is Alan Carr. So Alan Carr said no,

because he doesn't really do reality shows when he was offered it first. Did he? Yeah, so they came back to me and said Alan's a no. So I thought, okay, what do I do to change this? Because I knew Alan would be good. So he was filming in Bromley

and I live in South East London. This is true. It's about this time last year. And I know his agent Danny very well who did think he should do it. So I said to Danny, let's take Alan out for lunch. Let's do a pincer movement and get him.

And so I remember walking into the restaurant and just went, I know why you've asked me for lunch, Kate, and I'm not doing it. And I sort of said to Alan, okay, this is why you should do it, Alan. And I just talked to him about what a great show it was, how he'd be looked after. Stephen Fry was actually the first person to sign up for it. I was going to say, is it a bit like casting a movie. If you can say, Scott Johnson's doing it. Yeah. So Stephen was great.

Stephen signed up for it because he wanted to pay the game. And he did say, look, use me to get others. So that helped. But I said, and then what Alan said to me, so then we'd sort of talked around, and he was coming around to the idea. I said, you'll have fun. It's amazing.

You know, it's a proper game. I think you'd be really good. And I think you really like the other. We couldn't really say who else was signed up at that point. So there was some names. Anyway. Because you knew you would disclose it accidentally. Yes.

Alan was there. Yes. And we had to be quite by the names. Before he became Tony Montana, he was quite loquacious. But he obviously developed his event. But the thing he said to me, he said, all right, Kate. I think maybe I will do it on one condition. I said, what's that, Alan?

He said, you've got to promise me I won't be a traitor. And I was like, well, first of all, I can't promise that because it's the format and I've got no control. And then I said, and honestly, Alan, I think if he said, I can't, I'm sweating, thinking about it. I can't lie, Kate, I can't lie. And who knew he was going to be the best traitor of all. And you know, Claudia's very much part of picking those traitors as well. So I think I'd say those interviews that Claudia does. are very key in the civilian version and a celebrity version.

And they normally have one, possibly two people in mind for the traitors. But I think on one series, it was only about an hour before that roundtable that the team with Claudia had said, okay, these are the three we're going to go for. I think because those interviews of Claudia do actually. And actually, if someone really doesn't want to be a traitor, we wouldn't make them. We do look after people on it. We don't want them to have an awful experience. I think by the time Alan got to Castle, he changed his mind.

Yes, of course you do. Because, again, we talked about what a great booking is. He understood what the show is. He understands the role that he can play. I saw an amazing graph at the weekend. I thought it was so fascinating. The graph of Google searches about neuroblastoma is kind of flat. And then suddenly there's this insane spike.

I think it was like half a million more searches after Traces, which is brilliant. And I told Alan that because we got that from audience research. And I said that. But it's just been a real joy to see it take it. and see it become, I think it's still, you've talked before about linear television and the challenges of that, but you can still get big numbers. I mean, strictly, this Saturday and Sunday, you know, was the biggest show watched over both nights and it's still getting really good numbers. So that is brilliant to see. And what I commission for linear now, or my teams do,

I should say, because you've got amazing commissioning teams who are experts and all of this. but we very much commission for linear television as a shop window for IPlayer. So IPlayer is where we're really seeing the growth. So it's very much commissioner show. It used to be commissioner show for linear, IPlayer's the catch up. It's now commissioner show for linear and shine a spotlight on IPlayer. So episode one of Traitor's Celebrity is now up to 15 million. Six million of that was from the overnight.

Nine million was from I player. That's, I think, one thing that people haven't quite caught up on. That's the fact with all channels now. It's just one of those things that has just happened. The audience just watches things in very, very different ways. And you see the misreporting of it all the time, which is like it's down, it's down. And you think, no, no, no, on catch up, if anything, it's got. Yeah, and it's because people still are quite hung up on overnights.

But for us, we wouldn't recommission a show until we looked at the 28-day picture. And I player, Dan McGulp and his teams who run that, I think, do a brilliant job of sort of pushing things on eye player and pushing people to them. And the young audience as well, I think 80% of all comedy and drama viewing is now an eye player for that age group. So you're seeing those trends, definitely. Can I ask you a question about traitors from Rainer, which I thought was an interesting one? Because I think people sometimes don't get this. Firstly, Rainer says, congratulations, what a triumph celebrity traitors was.

Big fan of traitors and the celebrity version was a treat. She says, how does the BBC make money from productions like this? Without commercial advertising, I wonder how you make that much deserved return an investment in these situations. Well, for the BBC, we don't, really. Our return investment is seeing the audience are getting value from their licence fee and are loving the show. The independent production company and the format holders are the ones that make the money from it, but not the BBC actually. Unless it's a BBC own format, if it's a show from BBC studios like Strip Become Dancing, which, you know, has sold all over the world in like 60 different countries, yes, the BBC gets money from that. the same with shows like Top Gear.

And that money goes straight back into other programming. Yeah, so it absolutely comes back into the BBC to support the BBC and means we can spend money on more programmes, absolutely. Speaking of Top Gear, will you bring it back? That's what Giles asks. Okay, that's a, we are, I mean, Top Gear, we still see it does huge numbers than I play with the shows and everything. So, yeah, never say never.

It's not due back in the immediate future, but it is a really important show for us. So many people have asked a question, which I'm not going to ask you, which is who's going to be the next host of Strictly. So what I will ask you instead in the spirit of that, when a job like that comes up, when an opportunity comes up, what happens? What's the process? Who is emailing you? What's happening inside the BBC? When you've got a slot to fill or two slots to fill there, what's the process by which those slots are filled? I want to believe there's a situation room like the one where they all went in when they killed Osama bin Laden and they're all watching like that.

Is there a BBC situation room where you would handle this? Where you'd handle that when it came? Not really. I mean, that was very much Tess and Claudia's decision. And they did ring me to sort of tell me what they were thinking. But I think they were worried it was going to leak, which we often have. So they wanted to very much announce it on their own terms. But, you know, they are brilliant, brilliant hosts of that show.

And they have sparkly high heels that are going to be hard to fill, definitely. But in terms of the process next, well, the production team, BBC Studios and Sarah James and her team and Susie Lamb and all these great people who make it, they are now concentrating on getting two shows out a week. So we haven't got time at the moment to start doing any screen test or chemistry testing. So we've got time. So I don't think we'll really be looking at it until the new year because we want to make sure that we deliver a great Strictly series. Having said that, yes, my inbox. has been inundated. So, I mean, I can't say names.

Obviously, yes, but it is one of the best gigs in television. So we have had so many. It's two of the best gigs. Exactly. We've had so many people who are keen to be considered, which is great. And we'll think carefully about next steps on it. But yes, there's no sort of room where we all go. They literally told me.

And then it's a series of. There's not a panic room in the circumstances. Of any organisation that should. But then it's about the press teams linking up with studios press team, with Claude and Tess's teams and making sure that we're all sort of aligned on how it's being announced and everything. But it's interesting. So with something like Strictly, the names who are going to do it will be big names so the people you know what it is that they can do. Will you do, is that something where you would do chemistry tests with people? Is it something where you would do pilots or is it something where if everyone agrees, everyone just goes, we know that person X would be able to do this show. lots of us have worked with her or him, we know exactly what they can do, or is it something that is such a big thing for the BBC, you would have to sort of put people through their

paces of a bit? Yeah, is anyone, is anyone offer only on that? You know how they say in acting roles where it's just like, no, I'm not, I'm not doing a test, I'm not doing a read with anyone either offer it to me or don't offer it to me. I think because it's two roles and because Claudia and Tess have had such a strong relationship, I think it would be hard just to sort of hire someone cold without seeing how they are with the other person. So I think that is a really important part of it. I don't think it's necessary about having a really big name. I think with shows like Strictly, format is king.

And no one is bigger than that show. And we, you know, when Brucey went, when Len, we've had amazing people come through it, but it survives because it's such a good format. But yes, I think it's very important about the relationship between the future hosts. But, I mean, we were talking strictly before we started today. And it's just, and it wants to, there's a sort of quick plug,

but on the result show, 17 minutes in, there was a collaboration between diversity. Oh my God, it was so good. It was one of the best things I have ever seen. We said, oh, I'm watching it, not me, Marina. Yeah. I mean, that show is such a thing of itself. Yeah.

Where you think actually, in some ways, it's got what, that's such a lesson in how to make amazing television out of essentially a one fact thing, who's going to go and stay. Yeah. And then it's just an amazing hour. It is. And it's, I mean, people talk about the teens.

You see it backstage, but they're amazing. The costume. the hair and makeup, Jason, who oversees the choreography. You know, we've got the BBC, sort of Countner and Joe that look after it, and Sarah and Susie, Nikki, there's Jack. There's so many amazing people who care so much about that show. And every year, it's like, how are we going to raise the bar? And that's one of the challenges for shows.

You know this. It's not just about making sure new shows land and grow, but how do you keep the big brands at the top of their game? How do you keep those big shows fresh, you know? So, not House of Games, I'm sure. You must think about that and how do you keep it fresh. Yeah, exactly that. And I absolutely won't put words in your mouth.

But I do think that Claudia and Tess understand that actually it's probably a good thing to have somebody new doing it. They've done such an incredible job on that show. But actually, you want it to still be on in 15 years time. And, you know, sometimes it's useful and it's lovely when it comes from the people themselves when they've gone. Do you know what? We've done our time. Well, I'm very excited to see who it's going to be. So you're a marina aren't throwing your hat in the race.

I get, God, can you imagine? That is an anxiety dream. Would you like to anchor that much? I must get more messages about who's going to be the next street you host than anything else. I do have an opinion, that's for sure. I fear that. It could just be the traitors podcast. This is not public service.

I'm afraid we are now going to have to go. This is not the BBC. We are now going to have to go for a break, Kate, if that's all right. This episode is brought to you by SkySyel. The go-to destination for film lovers this Christmas. Every year, Christmas sneaks up like a sequel you get to star in. The tree goes up, Advent calendar doors open, and the TV starts reciting familiar lines from our favourite festive films.

Christmas films do what the weather never quite manages. They actually make it feel like Christmas. This year, Sky Cinema's serving up the favourites, plus a new contender for the festive crown. Tinsletown, a new Sky Original comedy starring Kiefer Sutherland and Rebel Wilson about a Hollywood star who ends up in a small town panto and rediscovers the joy, chaos and glitter of Christmas. It is not Christmas without a good pantomime.

Oh yes, it is. Sky Cinema has all the latest blockbusters like Mission Impossible the Final Reckoning and a Minecraft movie alongside festive favourites like Elf and Love Actually. Watch Tinsletown, a Sky Original on Sky Cinema from the 5th of December. Customers also get two free-view tickets every month

and Paramount Plus at no extra cost. Upgrade to Sky Cinema this Christmas to enjoy festive favourites, more of the latest blockbusters and the New Sky Original Christmas film, Tinsletown. Welcome back, everybody, to this Q&A episode, special one with Kate Phillips, Chief Content Officer of the BBC. Marina, we have lots of questions from our listeners, the next one. We've got so many about young audiences.

Anyway, Tom Davis, this is a good one. How does the BBC plan to engage younger audiences who are increasingly turning away from traditional broadcast media. Very good question, Tom, and it is something we look at a lot. I think, again, when we have a big show like Traitors, we see the young come in. And I think what we learned, we did a social media strategy that very much targeted young. And it triggered thousands of memes. And it gave the audience a chance to be creative.

So actually, you've got your main show as kind of your live sports event, if you like. But actually, we could see a whole separate show going on. at the same time online. And they were so funny. The memes were finally funny again because lots of that has sort of gone from social media and bled away now because social media has become so awful. But they were so funny the memes about traitors. Yeah, they're really good.

And, you know, in a gift of the show, gift to one cloaks. So actually, we love that that they were all engaging so much. And I think the celebrity traitors is now the biggest show of the year. And for young, it's the biggest show after adolescence, which is, yeah. really great for us to see. So I think it is about that. And we had a partnership with TikTok on it as well when TikTok was sort of pushing back to eye player. YouTube is a really important platform for us. We've been on YouTube for about 20 years, but I think we can see the growth of YouTube. And I think going forward, we will be putting more content on YouTube and we'll announce more plans

about that soon. But we see, when I started, when I was running entertainment, traditionally it was the battle of the broadcasters, you know, the Saturday nights with ITV, Channel 4. Then the streamers came in. Then you saw the competition from the streamers. I'd say now for young audiences, the biggest competition is YouTube. But YouTube is a platform. They're not commissioners. So instead of looking at it as competition or rivals, we need to look at it as another platform where we can reach young audiences. Well, that's what I was, part of I was going to ask, you know, we talked about inform, educate and entertain. Is there a world in which you're looking beyond that sort of notion

that public service broadcasting has to come in 30 minute or 60 minute chunks and is there other ways that it can be delivered completely different maybe via other people making short form content about your content but actually directly doing that different types of broadcasts as it were

or yeah absolutely so we still have a linear schedule to fill so we still have those kind of time slots but absolutely that's what YouTube gives us more freedom to do that. And we did a very good vertical drama of EastEnders did. They did vertical drama spiked, which did very well. And we've seen the rise in these sort of short dramas. Comedy. I really think vertical is really good for comedy. Definitely. So that will all be looked at going forward and how we do more content, different lengths, different forms. It's just

about reaching the audience and however we need to do that. And are the people who are pitching to you, Have they picked up on that as well? Because you must have had many years that's the same group of people pitching and pitching half our shows, hour long shows. Are you now getting different companies coming to see you pitching different ideas

in different forms? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we commission from a lot, the BBC commissions from more indies than anyone else in the UK. We worked with over 300 indies last year. But actually what we're seeing is a rise of, well, visual podcasts, you know,

it's been a big thing. And there's more companies. sort of specialising in that and more digital companies and just content creators. We're doing a lot of schemes, working with content creators, giving them the opportunity to use our resources to sort of make their content. And I think that's really exciting that we're, of course, there are brilliant indies that we work with and will continue to work with. But actually, the rise of new content creators and new companies, I think, is a real opportunity for us.

And partly we've talked about this before for the immediacy of that, where you can just get something going and do it quite quickly. A lot of things that are on the BBC are beautiful and incredibly high production values. And as you've always said, the long gap between I've had this idea and it is now on TV. In ways in which you can contract that, as people do on short-form video sites, it must be quite interesting. I think that's interesting because when I look at documentaries on YouTube and things, and sometimes they're a bit rorer, they're a bit scrappier, but actually they're great content. And maybe we get a bit too hung up on the dub and the grade and all.

this and you know we don't want to drop our standards but you're totally right marina how can we get content out there faster and reach and reach more people because people are watching those things on the same place that they're watching you and they don't have that same sort of like oh it must be these kind of immaculate production values yeah formats i think still are a slightly handcuffed to tv studios and shiny floors yeah it's it's interesting isn't it with it's hard to get rid of saturday night because what's your feeling on i'm always interested what people feel about Saturday nights because I still see the big numbers, but I think a few years ago as people would have thought, oh, well, is Saturday night still a big thing? But it feels to me

that people still want those sort of big shows. Yeah, as soon as you know, 1% Club, the wheel, things like this, you know, stuff is working there that's that on the night will get three and a half million and, you know, we'll kind of consolidate to hire than that. Obviously other countries don't have Saturday Night TV. It's meaningless to them. But I think it's a shop window for that 3G idea, which is shows that, you know, the wheel and the 1% Club, which is ITV, are shows you can watch with your kids and your parents. And I just think it's a great lead-in, but as you say, it's a shop window these days for eye player. When I was running entertainment, we commissioned gladiators. So, yeah, so something I used, yes, I will tell you, so something I used, I should, I should,

I should still, I, and I do want to actually do this again. I was thinking of doing it actually. Anyway, I used to go down to my local shopping centre with a clipboard at the weekends and I just stop and talk to people and ask them about what they were watching on television and I just say, and it's amazing how many people talk because we have amazing audience research teams,

of course you do and they give us invaluable information but I just wanted to talk to people direct and I remember being in the shopping centre and speaking to this woman, this lovely woman and I said, what isn't on television at the moment that you would like to see on TV. And she said, I just want something I can watch with my kids. And she had little kids.

They were under the age of 10. And they're already on different devices. And she said, I remember when I was young, sitting down, watching stuff my parents. And now it's really hard to get them to watch anything with me. And then a week later, the gladiator's pitch came in. And I'm not saying I commissioned it because of that one woman. But it was very much in my mind. Actually, the generation that watched it as kids are now have kids of their kids of their

own, so you've got that nostalgia, but it's that shared feeling. And I think, you know, it's so liberating when you're commissioning just to put the audience first and think, yeah, why don't we bring back gladiators and don't mess with it too much, but, you know, that's what you don't want to do. You don't want to, you know, you want the sort of the music and the sort of the, we have new names, but, you know, things like fire and nitro and all this, you know, great. And also there'd been the rise of the Marvel superheroes since the last gladiators. So I could see that kids love that and they love sort of giant and legend and the sort of bandies. Giant is shorter than me.

He's like six six. Like anyone in entertainment apart from you, they are shorter in real life. I call him giant brackets not so much. That's what I call him. It's also been amazing for booking for other shows because suddenly you've got like 12 new celebrities. I love the way your mind thinks. No, but it's true. Yeah.

And you've had Nitro on Strictly Harry, which is his real name, lovely Harry. But yeah, no, it is. But that was always, yes, why don't we bring back gladiators? Because it will just be a joy. But even I was caught back by just how popular it was. And I thought, yeah, audiences still want this shared viewing. So yes, I will go with my clipboard again and talk to people. Well, that's what people sort of say, isn't it?

Why can't we just have 10 versions of things this year? Why can't we just have 10 celebrity traitors? It's much harder to get those 3G formats and you think. It is. How many do you turn down a year that you think? Oh, God. Well, it's, I mean, again, it's more the commissioning teams now who look. And a lot of things do go into development and we sort of try them and we pilot as much as we can.

I mean, when you see something on screen, a lot of work has gone on for quite a while to sort of get there. Even if you're taking an international format like Traders, it's still how's it going to work for our audiences and how does it feel distinctive and BBC is really important. It's never just a lift and shift of these things. But thousands of things pitched to your team every year. Literally thousands. When people pitch TV shows to me sometimes, you do think it's a really, really, really. I mean, even back in the day when there was lots more telly, it was a crowded market. But now it's, yes.

Speaking of which Kate, Stephanie Moore says, is there a show that Kate was pitched that she passed on that she regrets missing out on? Is there one that got away? There's probably about 20. Gosh, I mean, there's always look at shows. I think I was a big fan of the Masked Singer when it first came up because it felt distinctive and different. But often in these things, you're in a kind of a bidding war with another broadcaster, and ITV got that one. But I did love Mask Singer because, again, it just felt different and ridiculous and Joyce. And actually it came a good time.

I think they filmed it. It was in the pandemic. It was the perfect show for the pandemic when you've got masks. Because we were in my mask anyway. Whereas we have the challenge of keeping strictly on during the pandemic, which I'm glad that we did. did, but so. There comes a point, presumably, where you cannot outbid an ITV or some of the commercial broadcasters. Yeah, I mean. Unless you team up with an NBC, you have to find it. Yes. And I think, you know, and I think, um, Bandicoot have done a brilliant job making it for

ITV, but yes, I did always love that show. The one I always look at with envy, of course, it was never bid to us, a pitch to us is, um, Gogglebox. I am a massive Gogal box because it's all those. And it, you know, it's people across the UK. It's, it's, it's different ages, different backgrounds, but it's funny, it's so British. And when I was directly commissioning shows, when I was running end and then looking after unscripted, I would always say when a pitch came in, are there goggle box moments? When you're looking at a show, what are the goggle box moments that will make people react strongly?

They'll laugh, they'll gas, they'll cry. Because if you haven't got those, we shouldn't be doing it. So that's always a sign where are my goggle box moments? Yeah, it's interesting. It's changed commissioning in a way. Because, yeah, you have to imagine any of those groups of people. What are Giles and Mary going to say about this? Yes.

If they knew the power they had those couples, yeah. That's extraordinary, isn't it? I know. And it's just utterly joyful. And a previous job I had when I used to sell format, so I would sell shows around the world. And I remember Dr. Foster. Do you remember Dr. Foster back in the day?

So I went to Mumbai to sell that to an Indian broadcaster as a scripted format so that they would do their own version. And instead of playing a sizzle tape of all the best bits, I had taken the goggle box clip where everyone's watching the dinner party scene and they're all reacting. And then she waxed Jodiecombe around the head. And I just played that and I said, look, this is from another broadcaster. This isn't a BBC show. But look at the public reaction to it. And I sold it in the room on that goggle box clip.

So then I said to the lovely girls that are in charge of the goggle box format, just you know, I am now using your show to sell my shows. That's like when you see a trailer for a horror movie that's just the audience watching the horror movies. I love horror movies. So much of everything is reaction gifts now. Isn't it, Jess? You know, I'm a massive horror fan, can I just say? That's the one thing I love.

Sorry, I'm spilling my coffee now. I love horror and I'm always a big fan of horror. Could the BBC ever do anything horror? I love. If I say this now, I'll get loads of horror things. I know. And it's low budget and it's about being together. It's about so many.

A good horror with proper jump scares, I think is the hardest thing to do. And I never think it gets enough recognition in sort of film awards and anything. I'm a big. And it makes more money than £1 for spent than any other genre by a long way in Hollywood. By a million miles. There will now be Doctor Who bulletin boards, which are full of, they're going to take Doctor Who in a horror direction. No, no, they were. We loved it.

But I did used to love Hammer House of Horror when I was young. And I remember my mother frog marching me back to blockbusters because I took out of the NHS of the Texas chainsaw massacre. And I was too young. And she made me go back. She gave the guy a real earful for letting me take it out. So I'm a big horror fan. But no, I'm not looking for a prime time horror format. Although Traitors is a bit sort of campy horror.

Well, you know, when people are sort of leaning into the range rovers in masks and dragging people out, you are a bit kind of, okay. I know, and the dolls. And I think when Nung Diane was buried by her own son, I remember editorial policy who are brilliant at the BBC and really do keep us in check. But they did say, you know, are you sure about this? And I said, look, I think it is in keeping with the show and the sort of canvas and the horror of it. But you're so right, that could have become one of these random culture war moments. Could it be triggered? Yeah.

It could have been. And you never know. Yes. Can I ask you a question? Lots of people have asked questions in this area, but I will use Chloe Martin's question. Thank you, Chloe. Can you share how the BBC is embracing emerging technologies like AI and virtual production to shape the future of storytelling? Yeah, it's fascinating.

I mean, we definitely want to be at the world. the forefront of how the media are using it. And we're in a very test and learn phase at the moment. We actually just did an internal week of AI for all staff with lots of different presentations and how we can use it. So at the moment, we're piloting it. I know news have done a couple of Gen AI pilots on the website and apps in sounds. We've just done a pilot where we've used it for subtitling our program. So it's a real benefit. We're looking at how we use it in bite size to improve the tutor offering to children. There's a great. one we've just done, it's a pilot where you take football clubs. So I think we've tried it

with Plymouth and Southampton, Newcastle, Liverpool and Aston Villa. My family are all big Aston Villa supporters. I did not have a say in which ones they tried it on, but it was interesting it was Aston Villa. But they have done Villa. But just to have a kind of daily targeted audio program about your club and what's going on. But when we use AI and when we use it in the pilot, it is still checked editorially. It doesn't go out without checks. But I think it is an exciting creative tool. What I'm very interested to ask you by this,

what I find fascinating, I went to a talk about AI, and I think as a research tool, it's amazing because you can say, tell me what have been the big Saturday night hits in recent years and what have been the key ingredients. I mean, you could use Richard Osman for this, or you could use AI, but say we're using AI. AI is cheap. So it's so.

Can't believe I lost a job. But it comes really, you know, within, like seconds, it's amazing. Then I think I saw a demonstration when they said, okay, so I want to do a Saturday night show. I wanted to have drama, Jeopardy Fun. And then it literally, again, within a minute, came up with ideas. But what I found is those ideas were quite derivative of what had come before because they're borrowing on what's already out there. So I'm really interest. I think AI is a research tool and it can certainly enhance creativity. It can help with films. You don't have to do GVs. You could use AI and things. But when you're looking at a

new format, which we all love, could AI, would AI have come up with the traitors? That I'm not sure. I think every single producer I talk to, they all use AI in the way you're talking about is they all, you know, use it as a sounding board on certain things. Every single one I've spoken to and that's trying to speak to people regularly because AI is changing regularly, they all say the one thing it cannot do is come up with an original idea. And people say, look, feel free, please to use AI in your deck or anything like that. If you come to me with, you know, occasionally you'll get an idea through and you go, was this yours?

Yeah. And the producer go, oh, no, it wasn't. You can just tell there's something about it, like the music. But it can be like a note, right? It can be like an executive note. No, not like that. But hang on, and then it sparks a conversation where you take it on. It can suggest things, I think, that people can kick back against or say, yeah, that wouldn't

work because of that, but it can get you to places. I've got a producer friend who's trained his own AI to argue with him now. He said, because his AI was so polite. He said, no, you have to absolutely know what I'm like. Here are my shows. You have to stop being nice to me. And he says he's got this great relationship. You're in television now.

But again, not for coming up with ideas. I think when people think about AI, they think, people you know they think oh that's the way to get ideas and it just for various reasons but in terms of creative costs and things like say you want to do a show say you want to do something that's set in an incredibly expensive location and certain things have had to come down so much in cost comedy things like that because really for what you know because of the kind of harsh economics of the market but if you could use as you say for GVs for other for other aspects of it for background almost it makes different things possible and it makes bigger worlds

possible to some extent than if you just said, okay, well, we can only do it if it's all practical and it's all real. Yeah, I think that that will really help in the future definitely and sort of and help Indies and that can lead, what is that, you know, necessity is the mother of invention and I think that will be a big part of AI. I think for the BBC we just have to be very open and very transparent when we're using it. That's really important and we are very clear. We've been trialing sort of labels online when people can see where we've used AI, and that for me is keep going forward. But I'm excited about it. And I think creatively it is an opportunity, but let's sort of see where, I mean, it's moving so fast at the moment

as well. That's the other thing. But I think we've got a big series next year, actually, Hannah Frye, the amazing Hannah Frye is presenting, which is looking at AI and that should we be excited, should we be scared and giving as much information as we can about it for the audiences? Because I think there's a lot of questions about AI that still need answering. But I also think that's where having an organisation like the BBC at the heart of your culture is very, very useful because it does need guardrails and we do want to protect jobs and we do want to be excited about it. But at the same time, if you just want to use AI for profit, it goes in a certain direction. If you want to use AI for creativity, it goes in a different direction. And it's important to have public service broadcasters who have, you know, who use it, but understand that human beings are the heart of creativity.

feeds on to the like our last question because sadly we are running out of time but given the current climate given everything that's happened at the BBC I wanted to ask you something about public service and what it means to you do you and your team feel a responsibility to make the world a better place and if so how do you try and put that right at the heart of your programme making oh god I mean absolutely I mean public service for me is about because it's an amazing thing but I think you get emotional actually because it is an amazing thing but I think think the BBC is an amazing organisation and for me it's about enriching the lives of everyone in the UK and it should be a value for everyone in the UK and whether that's I don't know through using bite size of looking at the weather looking at the news looking at the cookery website having an amazing documentary a wonderful entertainment show you know inform educate and entertainers at the heart of the BBC but we can do all those. things. Sometimes one program can do all three. Sometimes actually it's just a great comedy and it's just a brilliant laugh. But for me, it really is about sort of serving the public and giving the

audience. Yeah, I think you're right. Making, I would hope that life is better in the UK because of the BBC and I feel really passionately about it. It's why I'm still working at the BBC and I think we have a lot to be proud of with our content. God, I didn't think I get emotional, but you sort of do because it's just, it's just fantastic. The range of content that we bring to audiences, and we're really proud of that. And the other public, I mean, ITV, Channel 4, I think we've all got Channel 5,

there's always a lot of content on all of them that we should be really proud of, and we have to sort of keep going that and remember that that's what's important, that people are loving our shows and enjoying them. And I would just finish by saying, there are a lot of treats for Christmas. We've got a lovely Christmas.

We have Wallace and Gromit and the best wedding in Barry Island last year. But actually, there's some really lovely treats coming. And I think people will just really enjoy it. Yeah, sorry, God, now I get emotional. But, yeah, it's just a privilege to do the job I do. And that's just what we're doing going forward, focusing on giving everyone in the UK across the UK the best shows possible and reflecting their lives in everything we do.

Oh, Kate, thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was a privilege. Thank you. Oh, it was great fun. Thank you. Chief Content, I served the BBC. And if not celebrity traitors, Richard, how do you feel about celebrity gladiators? Now you said that you're taller than giant. If I had to do either, it would be celebrity traitors. Yes. I think we would insist. That is for sure. So, yeah, it's going to have to be Marina. I'm afraid of the celebrity traitors.

Thank you so much, Kate. Thank you so much for coming in. It was wonderful. Thank you so much. listen to all your wonderful questions as well, much appreciated. We will see you all next Tuesday, unless you remember, in which case we have the final part of our MTV story tomorrow. Yes. It doesn't end well. But for everyone else, we will see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday.

This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky. From Small Talk to Sunday lunch, it seems that everyone has a take on the latest shows. With Sky's essential TV package, you can too. Just £15 a month gets used Sky TV and Netflix together, the programmes everyone's dissecting, quoting or bluffing their way through at dinner. On Sky, you've got the Irish Affair, Atomic and the best from Sky Atlantic on Netflix. There's House of Guinness, Stranger Things and so much more. Series that start conversations more effectively than Rail Strikes or Royal Weddings.

One package, one bill, zero fath. Plentiful, reliable and considerably easier to live with than most housemates. 15 pound a month for Sky and Netflix, and you'll always be in the loop. So if you want all the best shows together in one place, visit Sky.com. Visit Sky.com to Sark requires relevant SkyTV and third-party subscription. Sky Essential TV includes a selection of Sky Channel channels, 18 plus UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man only.