The Rest Is Entertainment - Bible Study With Russell Brand

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

Who’s funding Russel Brand’s cringe-inducing Christian reinvention? How has Channel 5 become a powerhouse of small-screen drama? And has fashion's biggest night been turned into an Amazon advert? Disgraced comedian Russel Brand is now a Christian influencer. But which MAGA talking head is behind his new book? How did he embarrass himself on Piers Morgan’s chat show? Tech titans Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez are funding this year’s Met Gala - is this proof that fashion has capitulated to Silicon Valley? And has Anna 'Nuclear' Winter finally been defeated? The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at ⁠therestisentertainment.com ⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to ⁠www.goalhanger.com⁠ Video Editor: Adam Thornton & Vasco Andrade Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rest of entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Admin tends to require a little bit of encouragement. So submitting your meter reading now earns you a spin and the prospect of being quietly rewarded for it. Yeah, you can spin, you can win octopoints, which you can spend in the shoptopus. The shoptipus. I mean, fair play.

Well, whoever refuses a wheel and the opportunity to get something for nothing. But it's absolutely one of the mainstays of game shows wheels because it has a randomness to it. And I've spent like weeks and weeks sitting just working out and the wheel just going, okay, that's an extra thousand. That would be 2,000. Then you work at how many bad squares there are. By the way, there's no bad squares on the octopus one.

But it's a mesmerizing thing. So addictive. I know. Watching it. You want to keep doing it. They slow it down slightly. And then when you watch the contestants like leaning in like it's going to make a difference. And like lots of things with Octopus energy, they're very good at gamifying,

lots of the sort of just normal stuff that you have to do with your energy provider and getting a free spin and winning octa points. It's a very good example of that. With Octopus, you submit your meter reading, you get a spin and a chance at octo points for money off your bill or to spend in the most aptly named Shoptipus. The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road? That's the Volkswagen TIG-1. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood accents.

Under the hood, the available 201 turbocharged horse power engine gives it a fun to drive edge. The refined Tiguan, you deserve more style. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUVW, German engineered for all. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Oswin. Hello, listeners. Hello, Marina.

Hello, Richard. How are you? All right. What lovely weather we've been having. We have, it's actually worth discussing. It's been so fantastic. Although, if we have listeners around the world, perhaps in your territory, you haven't had nice weather. God, I love how global you are.

You've got to be so careful. You have to individualise everything. Speaking of being careful, we're going to have to be very careful. We're going to be discussing Russell Brand's book tour. How is it going? How is it really going? What else are we going to talk about? We are going to talk about a British television success story. I'm going to talk about Channel 5.

They're called 5 really. But if you say 5, people think you mean the boy band. So it gets confusing. So I'll call them Channel 5 for now. But their drama, which anyone who watches Five will know they've had three or four years of absolute banger after banger. So we're going to talk about how and why they've managed to achieve that. And we're also going to talk about the Met Gala, which this year is sponsored by Lauren Sanchez and Jeff Bezos. Friends of the podcast.

Friends of the podcast. And we're going to talk about how it, in my view, represents a complete defeat for every single thing. Anna Winter, the legendary editor of Vogue, ever stood for. Talking about complete defeats of everything we've ever stood for, shall we talk about Russell Brand's book? Russell Brand has a new book out, which is called How to Become a Christian in Seven Days. The answer's not what you think it is.

The subtitle is, may take 50 years of sin and fuck-ups to get started. Language, please. Language indeed. That's actually on the cover, but with an asteris. We should say before we go on that Russell Brand in the UK has been charged and faces trial in October on charges of rape and sexual assault made against him by six women. He denies all of those charges. We can't talk about that, but we can talk about the book tour he is currently on.

We can talk about the things that he's been talking about in the last week or so. And the journey that slightly got us here because Russell Brown would like us to think that he has been on a journey. Firstly, of faith, inevitably he was once a Buddhist. Then I think he sort of moved. There was a point relatively recently where he was endorsing a Roman Catholic prayer app. Was he looked camera, but called Hallow. The other journey I suppose he's been on is from being what I would describe, I guess, as a sort of standard vibes-based lefty towards being a sort of maga-faithful person in America.

He now lives in America. Still vice-based. Still vice-based, yeah. You'll remember that back in 2015, he was regarded as some sort of, you know, electoral profit in some way. And as though his had some kind of swing vote. He'd be on news night. Ed Miliband would talk to him. Ed Miliband went to his flat in the 2015, during the 2015 election campaign to be interviewed. He had a sort of news show at the time that was called The Trues, a bit like the news, but not.

Oh, that's clever. Yes. I remember him one of the questions he said to, sorry, this is a bit of sidebar but it was just so unbelievably moronic that I have to remind everyone what this electoral profit was.

He said, since suffrage, since the right to vote, I mean, what actually has meaningfully occurred thereby forcing Ed Miliband who at that stage, I mean, if so many people thought it was going to win and for me, this was, the steel was sealed,

when you're having to explain the creation of, I don't know, the NHS, workers' rights, women's rights, gay rights, anyway. But he was sort of designated at that point the kind of community leader of people who were disinterested in politics, but might, with the right profit, be kind of pushed forward and vote. And I haven't followed the story. Was he the right profit? I have to say, no, there was a constituency of people who didn't particularly vote and were not particularly interested in the carton trust of daily two-party politics. And they did, a lot of those people did come out in 2016 the next year.

and they did cast a vote in the Brexit referendum. So no, he wasn't. He didn't make any, the blindest bit of difference whatsoever to that election was up. I mean, to his bank balance. To his bank balance, yes, I'm sure. And he developed a career of lots of live shows and various books. And there was a sort of move into self-help as well, I would say. Anyway, I think the stand, the keystone really of this book tour so far has been the appearance on Pierce Morgan's YouTube show.

Oh my God. It is, if you've not seen it, it is absolutely mind-blowing. It's spell-bony. Please describe. That's two things you can have on the front cover of the book. Pierce Morgan is talking to Russell Brand about taking a Bible into the courtroom and talking about various... When he was charged. When he was charged, yeah, on his first appearance.

and talking about various Bible verses that helped him through that terrible ordeal. And Russell Brand says, oh, yes, and there's a wonderful verse from Isaiah that was very helpful to me. So, Pierce Morgan goes, oh, well, by all means read it out. There is then, I think it's almost two and a half minutes of Russell Brand looking through his Bible, the very Bible that he took into court, trying to find this verse from my verse. Isaiah. Oh, it's not that one. No, it's... No, no. Oh, that's a good... And you just... Yeah. It's...

Oh, in the gallery, they'll be... Oh, I bet they're enjoying this. And Pierce Morgan, uh, he should have learned from this a very long time ago. Just kept completely quiet for the entire two minutes and... Yeah, it seems like personal growth is possible. It was the best bit of TV Pierce has ever done. And... But it was, it was a very smart bit of presenting. So he was just sort of looking at the camera as Russell Brand is just, he's leafing through this... It's... Okay, can I just say it's already meme of the year? Just call off.

There's nothing. It is the most memeable thing that you can possibly have done. This clip is, I think it's absolutely extraordinary. What's interesting to me? I mean, there's so many things about it are interesting to me. But as, I don't know, I don't say an actor because, I mean, I've seen the films. But as a person who is a comedian, what the hell happened to his sense of, you think they, I mean, obviously one of the biggest things comedians know about is timing and whatever. and to not be aware of what is happening and not to just simply say, I can't find it now.

Anyway, the point is, what's happened? And to have something else on the top of your head that you say, easy, done. But what has happened there? It seems to me the most complete sort of collapse of all the sensibilities that made you successful and charismatic in the first place. To not understand that it was genuinely like 90 seconds or something. It's so unbelievably painful and to not know how that would. But again, he's from the world now. where, you know, he's constantly making his own videos and constantly sort of making his

own statements and lives in a world where, you know, the media is a very different thing than it used to be. So I guess he's just sort of thinking. He's appearing on a show like that too as well, in fairness. So you think that, but it just, it's so off. Well, the whole thing about being a comedian and being an intellectual and stuff, we will, again, we will talk about this properly when we can, when, you know, whatever gloves we currently have on, either stay on or come off. But we, we can have a proper chat. I would argue who is never really a comedian. I mean, there is a group of people who, I mean, I didn't like it, who's really a TV presenter. Yes. Yeah, but, yeah, but even, yeah, that's timing. I, to have just completely forgotten everything you ever knew.

So, it's interesting in terms of how, I know this is, this podcast slightly becoming the rest is shame listeners. In the old days, I do think that that, just that clip would be enough to do for you. But the point about all of this now is that if you decline, I mean, John Ronson, who wrote that book, so you think you've been publicly shamed, which is such a good book and caught such a mood at the absolutely, you know, maybe not the absolute apex of people, canceling people, but definitely in the kind of, in the heyday of it all. I'd love him to go back now and talk about what the lack of shame is doing to the culture, because the, it's sort of elimination in it of people who've just decided not to care, not to be shamed. Russell Brand will simply decide not to be shamed by the absolute preposterous hilarity of that clip. And has already been posting lots more and we'll just carry on. And it will sort of be fine.

So his new book is published by Skyhorse, but by a particular imprint of Skyhorse. Yes, Tucker Carlson Press. Tucker Carlson, who he was one of the very first trumpeters of MAGA. He's now going to slightly anti-Maga, but not in a fun direction. and he has set up his own press to publish. He used to be a Fox News anchor and he no longer is his own one-man ban now. Yeah, and, you know, is he going to run for president? All of this.

Yeah, he has Tucker Carlson Press, which he says is to publish books that nobody else will publish. And listen, that feels like there's a lot of those around. But really he means controversial books by people awaiting trial. Yeah, that genre. Skyhorse have done quite a few of those as well. Skyhorse are amazing. Yeah, Skyhorse really, by the way, that's the sort of parent publishing. And Simon & Schuster, I think, distribute their stuff.

So they're not one of those people that you have to do direct to consumer marketing. They do actually have a bit more of a presence and a bit more of a chance to get things out there. They did the Biden crime family, which is the blueprint for their prosecution. That was written by Rudy Giuliani. He wrote that book. They wrote the Pfizer Papers, Fiders as Crimes Against Humanity. both of those books, by the way, had forwards by the same person. Do you know who that might be?

It's not Charles Brandreth. Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon, I was going to say, R.K. He's published one of his books. Oh, yeah. And you know who the forward of RFK's book was written by? Steve Bannon. There's like 10 books that Steve Bannon has done the forward for, Stephen K. Bannon.

Is there an official forward a job? Just I do forwards. I guess so. Yeah. I don't know if it's the same forward. But to be fair to Sky Horse's word, it's not all that. They also do the unofficial joke book for fans of Harry Potter. There's four of those.

Wow. Can I give you the subtitle to that? There's written a talk about sitting around a table with lawyers. The unofficial joke book for fans of Harry Potter on the cover, it says, this book is not authorised or sponsored by Bloomsbury Publishing, Scholastic Limited, Warner Brothers, JK Rowling or any other person or entity owning or controlling rights in the Harry Potter name, trademark or copyrights, all on the front cover. Now you've only got to do another 36,9,961.

They also do the large print Bible word search, which actually, that sounds like quite a good book. They did Woody Allen's memoir, Melania's memoir, RFK's attack on Anthony Fauci, remember their chief medical officer. They've done, yeah. So it's a vibe. They've done so many books on the JFK assassination, including one up which I love, written by Jesse Ventura. Do you remember Jesse Ventura, the former wrestler, who actually became, I think, was he governor of Minnesota? I think he might have become Governor of Minnesota. He suddenly ran as Governor Minnesota.

They did an amazing book called I went to prison so you won't have to by Peter Navarro, the lawyer. There's so many jokes I want to make right now, but I can't. Peter Navarro, the lawyer, by the way, wrote a previous book where he kept citing a legal expert called Ron Vara. And experts couldn't find any records of a Ron Vara. And then they realized that Ronvara was an anagram of Peter Navarro's surname. And so he did, yeah, yeah. Wow. Anyway, he went to prison so we don't have to.

I don't know if Russell Brown read it. Did he go to prison for writing a bad book or is it something, you know? No, I think he went to prison for some legal shenanigans. I wouldn't want to go into the detail. We're treading on such thin ice throughout this piece anyway. Okay. I don't want to not be sued by Russell Brown, but then we are sued by Peter Navarro. Yeah, you're right.

I mean, it's always worth the bit you're not expecting, I have to say in my experience of legal actions. Anyway, make sure you look left and right. Russell Brand's book It is described by Tucker Carlson Publishing as a testimony and guide to a timeless yet zeitgeist capturing grounded yet psychedelic encounter with Christ Go through that again? Well, I can't because there's so much more of this synopsis

and I think you're going to love it. Oh, amazing. As much as the world is in cultural and political collapse, unless you've been living in a billionaire bunker on Epstein Island, you know we're an extraordinary of a revival with his customary almost shocking frankness, Brand describes his apostasy from demonic Hollywood. By the way, I think Hollywood may be cut ties with him, but...

His apostasy from demonic Hollywood. And radical conversion to Christianity against a backdrop of false allegations, his son's heart surgery, and truly draw-dropping spiritual warfare. If you are beginning to awaken to the profound changes that are sweeping our planet and want an eyewitness account from the front line, Okay. Described in gentle yet visceral prose, not possible. Read this book now. So that was, I mean, he always kind of for Brussels Brown, like he'd followed a dictionary and the pages of got in a model.

It wasn't sitting well. Yeah, I've, yeah, listen, we're there's so many things we can't say. After his trial, which I think is set for October, we'll do a proper chat. Oh, yeah, well, we'll be covering that. I'm sure. Yes, absolutely. He now, but we should say he now loves Jesus. Yes.

Donald Trump, Andrew Tate. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that he was actually baptized. The story of the baptism is, I think, is quite interesting because that was not even two years ago, but it was before he was charged. And I want to hear so much more from Bear Grills because Bear Grills baptized or helped to baptize Russell Brand in the Thames, in a stretch of the Thames.

So Thames Water no longer responsible for the big species of shit in that river. and he was assisted by By the way, perhaps that's where this book has come from Perhaps he came out of that river Just suddenly he's got something in his system Impaginated form And he posted a picture of the baptism Russell Brand saying

It's me, Bear Grills, the River Thames And of course the Holy Spirit But there were actually three guys in the pictures There was one's obviously Bear Grills Hugging each other You know waist high in the waters of the Thames I mean, don't try it at home But there was one

But the other guy had a big sort of one of those Japanese Hania mask tattoos right all over his back. And so I don't think that was the Holy Spirit. Maybe it is. I mean, have you seen the Holy Spirit? No, I haven't. Big news if you have. If I believe Russell Brown's caption, maybe that was the Holy Spirit. I just didn't imagine him to have a back tattoo, I guess.

Have you been given a reason to disbelieve anything Russell Brown says? I'm not going to comment on that, Richard. What I'm going to say is what Bear Grills said about it when he was called on it because he was the chief scout at the time, which is interesting for the Scouts Association. Faith and spiritual moments in our lives are really personal, but it's a privilege to stand beside anyone when they express a humble need for forgiveness and strength from above. Friendships when we go through tough times are worth so much.

It's true. Again, I want to hear so much more from Bear Grills about how things have developed. Perhaps we'll see him in the public gallery come October. He sort of did his own rewriter the Bible, didn't he, before Christmas Bear Grills, which people rather liked. So, Vance. What a Vance move. But it must be...

I don't think the Pope should talk about... Be very careful when he's talking about theology. And yeah, rewriting the Bible. It must be very, very hard to be a Christian at the moment, to be an actual Christian at the moment, to be guided through your life by your faith. Yeah. Because, of course, what you want is as many people converting as possible.

And of course, what you want is high-profile people converting. I don't know whether when they look around and see some of the people you talk about Christianity at the moment, whether they consider them to be true believers or whether they think they're using their faith. It must be a very conflicting time. There always used to be that line, and I don't know whose it is, but it's such a good one. They used to say the American Christian right, who tend to be neither. I thought that was such a good way of putting it.

But anyway, Russell Brand has to some extent, he's gone to live in America and he's sort of joined and he's appeared at the conservative conferences. He's got a live stream thing that he does. Now, his appearance on Megan Kelly, another fox. and he's carved out on our own and has got her own sort of podcast empire. On his Megan Kelly appearance, he said that he had had sex with a 16-year-old when he was 30, and he called it exploitative. He said he was an exploiter of women.

His behaviour was awful but lawful. Again, that's about as much as we can say on that with a court case pending. But I suppose we should look at where his money comes from. He's got lots of future plans. If the court case goes his way in October, he says he's going to run for London Mayor. But he has sold lots of books in the past. My bookie work was a big seller. Yeah.

He had to pay Pam at Millenbach, didn't he, for two books. Self-help books, as I understand it. Which he didn't deliver at all. Didn't even deliver a word, supposedly. I mean, it's amazing they went through it because as I was telling you, I'd spoken to some people in publishing not that long ago who said that they had never requested a returned advance if the book hadn't been handed in. And I was like, I'm so sorry, what?

So people have taken an advance, not written the book, they're years, years behind. And it's okay if it's like someone absolutely amazing, one of the sort of greats of the 20th century. And you just think, well, maybe they'll turn it in and then I'll still have it. But I was amazed by how many had not been requested back. I thought that was a really fascinating thing. Well, because no one wants to have the conversation. Wow. Okay.

Well, Param McMillian were willing to have it. In fact, they wanted to have the conversation, I think, by the. High Court because they legally have sued for the return of, I think he got half of the advance, he got half of the overall payment and then he would have got the rest on delivery. So I suppose the economics of his world are he appears at conservative conferences, which is lucrative. Really lucrative. Yeah, very, very lucrative.

Deep pockets. Yeah, like being on the after dinner circuit after you've been a prime minister or something like that. You get a lot of money for those sorts of things. It's like being a former professional golfer. Yeah. Yeah, it's not quite prime minister. Your audience is very rich.

He does a daily live stream on Rumble. Yeah, I know. And obviously, lots of that ends up on YouTube. And he did have ad revenue from YouTube, but they brought this in. If there are lots of allegations against you, and by the time he was charged, I think they restricted monetisation, so you don't, including ad revenue, so you get less. I think paid subscriptions at probably his main source of income. And the situation here is that actually you'd be shocked how much.

people draw in from these things. That's why he's gone to America because it's just a bigger pool. The money is crazy. And people will pay a lot of money to own the lips. This whole thing, it all starts with four letters, which is woke and everyone's on one side or other of that mirror. And if you're on the other side of that mirror, you are anti-woke, then you will pay a huge amount of money to anybody who does anything if they'll come over onto your side. I think it's very expensive to be anti-woke as a consumer. Yeah, because people pay him $50 a year for the witterings on Rumble. But it's estimated to me he's got something like $120,000 subscribers.

That's $400,000 or $500,000 a month. Just for that. Yeah, just for that. So I can't tell you that he is struggling desperately. And then much more shadowy, I think, even than that, the endorsements and affiliate deals that you do around that sort of content. So, and live events, as I say, there it's mainly turning up at these conferences, but it's very lucrative and that's why he's gone there.

Yeah. Another interesting development this week, again, lots of things we can't talk about, but we can talk about things that are in the public realm. Catherine Ryan, who appeared on Roast Battle with Russell Brand, has said it got to the point on that show. She said, I only did the show really. So, you know, I felt I could say interesting things. She said it got to a point where she was told not to do any more jokes that Russell was the butt of and that he had complained and that she was asked, said, no, no, no, you've got, I mean, it's a celebrity roast battle. Yeah.

But it got to the point where she was not allowed to do jokes about him. Can I sort of round up, I guess, by asking your opinion. And we've talked about the economics of his world and how he gets his money. But this book tour is, I suppose, why we're even talking about this. Will this sell books? The Pierce Morgan interview was, I think, two hours or something long, really, really long, like they all are. But all anyone experiences them as are clips that do or don't go viral. And obviously, this one's gone incredibly viral.

Will it sell books? Yeah, in America, it will. Here it went. But it's like saying, look, if Manchester City bring out a, sippy cup for babies which seems absurd will that sell and of course it will

because it's got Manchester City you know stamped on it so Manchester City fans will buy it and fans of not necessarily fans of Russell Brand but fans of

Jesus fans of spending your money on false profits right wow that's a huge fan base that is an enormous fan base that's bigger than the Swifties that is bigger than Swifties

so yeah I suspect till since sell some copies of this book I've seen quotes of I've seen a couple of views on it, some in the Christian press, which are very entertaining. I wanted to actually buy it because I wanted to read it, but it's not out till later in May here. Yeah, I mean, it's unreadable. Right.

But of course, it's unreadable. Talking about him as a pro-stilist and a comedian, yeah, he was always dreadful. Yeah, he just, yeah, he promised something that he wasn't. But, you know, like with the Matthew Goodwin book we talked about, it's not just about the book itself anyway, it's about staying current and have something to talk about and being able to go on Megan Kelly and Lewis Morgan. That's the thing that that book is buying him and, you know, driving more subscribers to his channel. So in a way, even if he didn't sell books, it would be a lost leader. But we'll sell it for you, I think. But as you say, it is dwarfed

by the amount of money that he makes in subscriptions. Which we have to say, if you have the shamelessness attribute, you can just carry on making the money. That is the most lucrative DNA glitch you can have. Is the little, is the shamelessness DNA? You're quite right. I'd be surprised if there weren't parents in America now doing genetic screening to say, what is the exact thing that we need there that our kid never ever worries about anything anyone says about him? I'm incredibly interested in achieving that. Yes, it is the genuine superpower.

I think we got away with that. Yeah, that's that anti-hero taken care of. Join us after the break where we can discuss Lauren Sanchez. Yeah, we're also going to talk about a genuine hero who, we're going to be doing a Q&A with and we'll be looking for your questions for that's genuine hero as well. We'll let you know who that is after these ads. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK.

We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of lung vax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer. It builds on TracerX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer cells over many years to uncover the disease's earliest warning signs. Lung Vax is designed to train the immune system to spot these signs early on, destroying faulty cells before cancer develops. So it's not treatment, but preventative, with the potential to stop lung cancer before it starts. The first stage of the trial starts this year, focusing on people at higher rate. It shows what long-term research makes possible.

For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancerresearchuk.org forward slash the rest is science. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a full. Flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes.

Save the everyday with Amazon. Welcome back, everybody. Now, lovely palate cleanser. Who are we talking to on a Q&A episode soon? I can't believe this is actually happening. We are talking to Paul McCartney. The guy from the Beatles. Yeah, he was in the Beatles.

Yeah. Oh, the guy from Get Back? Yeah. Yeah. I love that show. Yeah. We are talking to the legend, Paul McCartney. But we will not be putting our questions to him.

We'll be putting your questions to him. So any questions you have for Paul McCartney, I imagine you can think of a few. If you send those to the rest of entertainment at goalhanger.com, put Paul McCartney in the subject line. In all caps. All in caps. Oh, my God, it's Paul McCartney as your subject. And yeah, any questions you've ever wanted to ask Paul McCartney and we'll put your questions to him. That'll be fun, won't it?

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, I won't be speechless, obviously. That would be that. I mean, that's a guy who never had to get baptized in a river. I'll just say that about the dude. Just. You know, back in the good old days where, you know, our cultural icons are actual cultural icons. Don't cross those two very, very different streams, Richard.

It's actually a river. Yeah. Tell me about Channel 5 drama, Richard. Yes, Channel 5. I like, you know, I try and beat the drum as much as I can for British television and for, you know, good old-fashioned British terrestrial television as well, only because that's where I kind of grew up and, you know, it gets a terrible press because all we talk about is streamers and the way that new media is going. And there are still huge

success stories in terrestrial television. You know, we've seen plenty of them, BBC, ITV, Channel 4, but five have very quietly put together a quite extraordinarily stable of dramas, I would say, and they've done it because the middle of the drama industry on terrestrial television has really been hollowed out. If you're BBC or ITV, they're still. doing brilliant dramas, but they're doing fewer of them. They tend to be bigger. And there was, there's a whole range of shows that have stopped getting made. You could sort of symbolize them by thinking when somebody leaves a British soap opera, where do they go? And it used to be they would go to a lovely BBC drama or an ITV drama. And, you know, that market has gone. And also, they've been

Channel 5 and Back to 5 and Channel 5 and back to 5 a lot of times. We know what we're talking about. Yeah. Is the 5th button? Is it, to people still use the 5th button, I don't know. Anyway, no. So the easiest drama strategy for five would be not to do drama at all. That would be, that's the alternate reality here. That is 10 years ago they go, we know how much money we've got, we know how much money drama costs. Because it is very expensive. Very, very expensive. Yeah, exactly.

And we know the return on that investment is often not amazing. So we are not going to do drama at all. That would have been nine times out of 10, that would be the thing that they would have done. But I remember many years ago, Ben Frow, who we've talked about on this show before, he was very good at spotting the zeitgeist at Channel 4. He said, chief content officer. He said, we're going to do drama. And now the whole thing is run by a guy called Seb Cardwell.

And it's something we could have talked about for a long time. But when I was watching the Hugh Edwards drama, the Martin Cleen thing, which is classic five, which is, you know, a big zeitgeisty idea with a big British TV star in the middle of it, they were able to advertise in the breaks and that all of the stuff they've done for the last four or five years. And when you saw it altogether, you think, blind me. It's unbelievable. It is really, really unbelievable.

Now, what they do, they make drama very, very, very cheaply. They have a number of companies, Clapperboard is one of them, Lonesome Pines, is another one of them, who were found a way of making shows very, very cheaply. So I spoke to Seb Cardwell this week about how they've done it and where this industry is going. and also something that the British government could do to help them. So I'll just go through some of the amazing shows they've done. They had the game, that's Robson Green, Jason Watkins. Jason Watkins is one of the big superstars on five.

As is Jill Harpani, who's in the feud. Jill Harpani, Rupert Penry Jones, Larry Lamb, Jamie, Leo Donald. I mean, everyone recognises all of these actors. And yet we don't see them every week. And they've really cashed in on that. Mist Call, Joanna Scanlan. They've done a whole new series of Dalgleas, the Hard Akers, which are doing a second series of Ellis with Sharon D. Clark.

They've got a few period things. The teacher they did with Sheridan Smith, and they bought that back for another couple of series. All Creatures Great and Small, of course, has been a huge hit for them. They're on Series 6 of that with Sam West. So they built up this incredible stable of shows. And I talked to Seb about how they've done it and how they've done it for the money. And it's a couple of things, really. I think, firstly, they don't have a big system where 100 companies just pitched new things to them

and they put a load of development money in. And, you know, the normal thing, as you will know better than anyone, if you're developing a drama is there's like 18 months up front where you're developing scripts and sort of giving a first draft and a second draft and a third draft and everyone has their say. And they go, actually, this is not for us. Or, you know, perhaps we can do it like this. And they don't do that at all.

They tend to have a group of very, very trusted suppliers. And they will just sit around and say, what would be a good idea for a show? You know, they were talking about the feud. And, you know, the feud was just one of their writers. talking about an extension that a neighbour was having and the arguments that people have. And then they went, great, that's a great idea for a show. We know what that show is. And they just let the writer go off and write it.

So they commission almost instantly effectively. Exactly. Seb says, look, we don't pay a lot of money, but we green light quickly. Or we'll say no quickly. And as you know, when you're making drama, a lot of the costs are those upfront costs where you're developing five or six different things all of the time. Yeah. The next thing they do, of course, is they don't film in the UK.

And we talked a lot about the tax breaks. get in the UK and why that's so good for the UK film industry and why we've got these enormous studios now. But the tax breaks only come in over a certain level, which I think is a million pound an hour. And Channel Fies dramas are not costing that. Some of them are around 350,000 on hour. I mean, they're super, super cheap. They make shows in Malta, Spain, Ireland, Hungary, Greece, they're about to do a shoot in Lithuania, love rat, which is another one of their really, really great shows that's filmed in Cyprus. Alibi, who do great drama as well, will tell you the same.

You know, Eagle, I make a lot of their stuff, and they're always in Italy or Belgium and all over. And given that drama is going to get cheaper as a year's go by, firstly, because people like Five and Alibi have shown that you can make it cheaper. And secondly, because AI will make cost savings in certain areas. I think if Britain wants a share of this new sort of drama world, they have to reduce the level at which the tax breaks kick in. And I know that five are really, really lobbying for that.

So we'll just add our voice to that. I was talking to another producer who's done some really about that, saying that if you don't do that, these kind of great three-part or four-part dramas or whatever, you know, where, however you divide it, that are non-returning will sort of disappear. And they can be about really amazing things. It could be like Mr. Bates that everybody talks about and become a huge thing.

But if you don't back them up in some way with tax concessions, then I think it's quite difficult for people to do it. And also if you're wondering, by the way, why so many new dramas are set abroad. Why, you know, Hotel Portafino or the Madame Blanc Mysteries, which is Sally Lindsay, which another of the real superstars of five, why there are so many shows that are set abroad. Well, that's because then you can film abroad and it looks like abroad.

Yes. Whereas some shows, you have to, you film abroad, you have to try and make it look like the UK. Now, the other fascinating thing that Seb said, and I do think this is very, very good news for the industry. He's talking about streaming for all companies streaming is huge, for five it is. By the way, I should have said,

what's their service, my five. My five, yeah. I should have said right at the beginning that they are making really good dramas. I mean, he's almost always like geysy stuff

with people you recognize well written. And you can see it's a little cheaper than the other stuff, but you know, you're driven by great performances and great story. But he was saying

when a show is on scheduled TV on five, so the average age of the audience is 64. But, you know, are young people interested in drama, particularly? Well, on streaming,

the average age comes down to 54, which as a 55 year old, I think is pretty young. But again, 54 is a sort of another traditional age for British terrestrial TV, even the streaming services of British terrestrial TV. So perhaps only older people who are interested in this. But five have had a few shows go to Netflix. Yeah. I've done very, very well on Netflix as well. And the average age on Netflix for five drama is 34. And 34 is a very interesting number. If you're interested in the... health of British TV and the future of British TV and British drama. So I think what it goes to show is not everything has to be succession. No. Because A, not everyone can write succession, but B, most people don't want to watch succession is the truth. The people like us who want to watch

it absolutely love it. But most people want a good story well told. There is not the money left in British TV to make those types of shows. So you have to find a hero of some sort to try and drive this industry through and Saybert 5 and the gang alibi as well who do Marlowe murder mysteries all sorts of things like that they are finding a way to make extremely popular content content that's absolutely loved by people you don't see written about an awful lot in the broadsheets but is doing huge huge numbers so they are doing that week in week out there's a whole industry they've created so firstly I want to say congratulations to them and to all the people making their shows but

Secondly, I'd like to say, if we could get that industry back in UK studios, it would make an awful lot of money for everybody. So this idea of lowering that tax break level would be incredibly lucrative, I think, for Britain and for the British film industry. Because what we talk about so much is that if you have the global TV channel, which is Netflix, you do get these shows that sometimes they make a show, which, you know, it's great, but something like sex education, but it could sort of be anywhere.

And you have the absolute sort of local feel and even, you know, regional feel where you think, oh, this is, you've got a new one coming, you know, that's set in Newcastle, the fortune that's coming imminently. And you know it where it is. And you won't have that sort of television

if the government doesn't help in that way, I think you won't have things that are like, oh, I know exactly where this is or this is, you know, I understand the regions of my country. You won't have that at all because what Netflix does is they can't do that. Yeah, exactly. It's Italy or it's the UK or it's much broader brush.

And as I say, listen, all the channels are doing good work in drama. You look at Dirty Water on Channel 4. All the channels doing good stuff, but they're doing less and less of it. And this is a way of just getting that conveyor belt of great drama, getting that continuing. I know five have got a few announcements that they're making in the next couple of weeks with really, really interesting shows with really, really big names. And I'll also say this, they revived Play for Today. Yeah. So, you know, Play for today was a UK thing in the 70s, 80s, and it, you know, it was one-off plays

when by people like Dennis Potter and usually dealing with, you know, kind of issues of the day. And everyone bemoans the fact that there's no play for today. And they were one-offs, which made them very, very expensive. But Channel 5 have bought that back. And they have bought it back in a way that I think is very interesting, which is they have said, we're going to give this to companies who are going to. to employ people from lower income backgrounds. So, you know, there's lots and lots of different schemes for getting underrepresented

communities into television. But lower income backgrounds is one that has not been concentrated on quite so much. Class is the hardest thing that people always say who do to try and deal with these targets, say it's actually the hardest one to do. And, you know, this is an area where there's not a lot of money for five in doing these series, but what they do is a showcase for new writers, new directors, for interesting actors and for production companies. They did five of them last year. They're going to do some more of them. And the point of them is they might zero money out of them, but they might just find a writer

who works with them for the next 20, 30 years and a director who knows that they owe them and will do stuff for them for the next 20, 30 years and to allow a ramp into this industry for people who didn't previously have it. Let's get behind their attempts to lower that tax break as well. And then we can all do more of it. So I think a rare success story, and it comes about from people. also a big up to alibi and a big up to Seb Cardwell, who I think is doing extraordinary things. Have we, I hope, left enough time to talk about Lauren Sanchez and the Met Gala? I know Jeff Bezos as well, but Sanchez is really the... That's the headline.

That's the tea here. Yeah. This time next week, it will be the day of the Met Gala on the Monday when we record this. And by the time the podcast land, it will be the morning after. I know. I'll be so hungover. Yeah. Because I'm looking forward to it very much.

Really. Like all normal people, I all want to be in my pyjamas saying, oh, my God, that dress is a war crime for one of the most beautiful women in the world. Well, I'm going to beat because I got invited this year. Oh, yeah. Fine. No, I didn't. No, I know.

I didn't know what you do. If you don't think we'd have been talking about that for four weeks in advance. It's the biggest event in the fashion calendar and it's presided over, always was, by Anna Winter, who was, of course, the famously fearsome editor-in-chief of American Vogue for so many years and is now the chief content officer global of Condé Nass. Yeah, I remember when I got made chief content officer, which is when I didn't go in, much. Yeah, well, yes. I think she still has a strangle hold over all of it, I have to say. I don't think she's one for letting go. You know, and as editor of American Vogue for so long, she was

worshipped for a snobbery, really, I would say. And she famously inspired the character of Miranda Priestley in the Devil Wears Prada. Anyway, the Met Gala this year is going to be sponsored by Lauren Sanchez and Jeff Bezos, who have become sort of Honor Rico chairs if you give enough money. that happening represents a complete defeat for her and everything that she stood for because she was the ultimate sort of taste maker. And if I could describe my beloved Lauren, I would say she's a sort of lack of taste maker. And, you know, most of say, that's fine. She's enjoying her money and that's absolutely fine.

But Anna Winter would have loathed everything she stood for for almost her entire career. And now she has to sort of let her in. Now, we've talked before about how the Met Gala works, but it benefits the costume Institute as part of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. There's a guest list. Anna Winter used to have to approve lots of the big stars looks. I mean, you were drugned into buying tables.

And the tables are really expensive. They're like $350,000 for one table. Wow, do you get to keep the table? No, I'd be nice, wouldn't it? It was always said you couldn't buy your way in. Well, I'm afraid you can now. Often you can't buy your way in at the bottom, but you can buy your way in at the top, right?

Yes. And what's interesting is that it's, It's all sort of bound up with the release of The Devil Wars Prada too, which is coming on Friday, which I went to the premiere of. You can't discuss the film because it's embargoed still to Wednesday or something when the critics' reviews are allowed to come out. But it's no secret that it returns to the world and the characters of the original film, which came out 20 years ago. Remember it's set at a fashion magazine and Meryl Streep's the Anna Winter figure and she's all powerful, etc.

I think that that premise alone, to me, feels like reanimating what is definitely, a lost world and the world has changed so much and it's been devalued and it's been destroyed to some extent and I find it's now the devil owns prada yeah the devil wears amazon but really it's weird Anna winter having been so sort of famously frosty you know the brilliant nickname nuclear winter she's now on the cover of vogue with Meryl street just she everything she does now to me feels like the actions of a desperado oh my god is she going to be baptized in the Thames by Bear Grills. I don't think she's ever been near a Hanja mask tattoo.

Let me tell you that. Back tattoo is still not in vogue. But her revolution is over, for sure. And I think all of it is embodied by this relationship with Lauren Sanchez. Because Lauren, in the old days, would never have been admitted to this world unless she changed. There were always a succession of people getting enormous money, particularly in America. There's always it. And normally, then they have to come into a certain form of society.

and there are other women trying to trip you up. Normally, other women who've got there like five seconds before you. And it's so interesting reading about what it used to be like to be the wife of a billionaire. Barbara Emile, who is married to Conrad Black, became part of this billionaire's world. Her memoir, she constantly feels like she's doing it wrong. She'll go to a party. She'll, you know, we wearing all her many diamonds and it will be like, oh, sorry, it's patio jewelry. That's necklaces, one million dollars or under.

Patio jewelry is just my favorite. Yeah, she's always thinking, she says, I was consumed by fear of not doing it right. Let me tell you something about Lauren Santos. She has spent not one second of her life thinking, am I doing it right? She wants to look really hot, really rich, and like she's having a really good time, absolutely all of the time. Now, that's quite fun, but Anna Winter was a sort of gatekeeper of a world. And it's interesting what has changed over those 20 years since that first film came out and now.

And I would say that what's changed is the nature of celebrity and also what happened with Silicon Valley. So Kim Kardashian was like the last of those people who would never have been admitted either, but then bent the knee and spent a really long time bending the knee to fashion and to Anna Winter. And eventually she put her on the cover. And also she realized that she needed her for the Met Gala because she creates these viral moments. She turns up in this or that dress in it. But you need that kind of viral online moment. And if you want to attract fame and power,

fame and Paris coming from a different place. Yes. And she unlocks it. But she would never have like chauffered her all the way around Paris for Fashion Week. As at the Couture shows, Anna Winter basically seemed to drive Lauren Sanchez, not literally in the front with the show's cap on, but that'd be quite funny. But drive her around to all the shows. And there's something about Lauren Sanchez.

It is like, okay, she doesn't care. You don't want to lend me your clothes? Okay, that's fine. It doesn't matter. I can like, obviously buy all your clothes. But not only that, I can buy your parents. companies. So there's a certain, like, a level of money that is completely transformative. And I would say that all the power that used to be in magazines has now completely flowed away

to the tech platforms, completely. In Vogue's case, first and foremost, to Instagram and sort of Mark Zuckerberg. I mean, Zuckerberg style, what is the style? He dresses like a, like a Serbian who owns an adult webcam business, you know, seriously. By the way, that is sort of what years. Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. I'm simply talking about the fashion aesthetic. By the way, that's no disrespect to Serbs there. No, no. No, no. Well, in the old, in previous generations, he might have gone into warlordry, but then he just discovered there's more money in girls. Just talking about the fashion aesthetic, not about, you know, Instagram, although maybe. And so it's interesting that those tables that I talked to you about, there's $350,000 tables for the one night

at the Meta Gala. These people who've bought up tables this year, meta, Instagram, Amazon, Open AI. I mean... Hold on. Goal hang out. I wish. I'd actually do. I just like to watch you online.

I mean, who wants to... No, but we wouldn't go. But we can see what Dom Sandbrook is wearing. Yeah. Who are you wearing? Sorry, surely. Who are you wearing? And also, of course, museums have always had terrible patrons

that they have to sort of for and over because otherwise you're not going to get the wing of your gallery built. But I do think that all of this is a sort of lost world. And it was interesting, Funny enough, again, I can't talk about what was in the film because when I went to this premiere, but it was a massive premiere in Leicester Square in London, like probably one of the, I mean, the biggest one that there's been there for a while. And, I mean, you can look at my face.

You can see I'm not in the looks business. Okay. But I'd never felt so glad I wasn't. There are so many. And they look beautiful, all of these people, but there are almost hundreds of sort of influences and whatever who, I mean, I can't explain how long it must have taken all of them to get ready. and they're just being sort of herded this way and that is the brutality of it.

Like really I'm, and this is no, and I just thought, oh my God, I am so glad I'm not in this, that business. It's so hard, you know, they all had sort of like resting worry face. They all look worried. They didn't know which stares together, you know, because there's so many of them. And what you have to do is, you know, you get your quick moment in the, where you're photographed,

and then that will go online. And it exists really as a sort of digital moment. and you've had to go through hours and hours and hours of preparations. And the sort of indignity of being herded this way and that during, I found it like a scene of just total pathos and I was just so glad I wasn't in. And this is no disrespect to, I mean, they all look beautiful, like hundreds and hundreds of beautiful butterflies, but sort of in a net in a bit of a horrid way. It's like seeing the young men going off to war in 1939.

Yeah. Yeah. Or even worse, 1914. I think it'd be over in 15 minutes. Yeah. And actually like, guys, you're going. You're quite literally in the trenches here, but I've found it a scene of pathos, I will say that. But yes, so I think in the end it would be interesting to see how this event that exists really is a viral thing now, the Met Gala.

But it's no longer I don't think about gatekeeping and style, which is sort of evidenced by the fact that it's effectively been bought by someone who I don't think anyone would think was our century's greatest arbiter of taste, dear old Lauren, you can buy these things now. And the tech companies, the kind of least stylish people in the world, really, can buy them. Yeah. Well, you buy what you don't have, don't you? Don't forget all your questions for Paul McCartney, if you send those to the rest of the entertainment at gollhanger.com, do some good ones, please, because we've got to sit in front of them and ask those questions. I know you will. We will be back on Thursday with our questions and answers episode. And on Friday, for our members, a bonus episode about the history of breakfast television, which is such a ride.

Oh, gosh, it's so up my street. Yes, mine as well. If you want to join for ad-free listening and bonus episodes, it's the rest is entertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday. See you Thursday.