The Rest Is Entertainment - Can TV drama deliver justice in the real world?

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

It may have been 25 years since branch managers were convicted of theft and fraud, but the four-part ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office has renewed public interest in the scandal. Richard and Marina explain the slowburn of the story and why entertainment can play a key role in keeping stories in the public eye. Luke Littler was a tale that kept people glued to the darts over Christmas, but what can darts tell us about sport in general, plus Maria and Richarsd's favourite show The Traitor's returns and Richard has a plan on how he'd win plus The Golden Globes kicks off awards season. 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/trie It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Twitter: @restisents Email: [e-mail] Producer: Neil Fearn Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Forget the pressure to be crushing your workout on day one. Just start moving with the Peloton Bike, Bike Plus, Tread, Row, Guide, or App. There are thousands of classes and over 50 Peloton instructors ready to support you from the beginning. Remember, doing something is everything. Rent the Peloton Bike or Bike Plus today at onepeloton.ca slash bike slash rentals. All access memberships separate. Terms apply.

Best Western made booking our family beach vacation a breeze. And it felt a little like... Come on kids, back to the hotel room. Good night, kids. Good night, Mama. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. What day of the week do you look forward to most?

Well, it should be Wednesday. Ahem, Wednesday. Why, you wonder? Whopper Wednesday, of course. When you can get a great deal on a whopper. Flame grilled and made your way. And you won't want to miss it. So make every Wednesday a whopper Wednesday.

Only at Burger King, where you rule. Hello and welcome to the Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. It is very nice to be back. It's lovely to be back. How is 2024 treating you? It's treating me incredibly. I've only recently come back from being in Austria, so I'm having the re-enter to the atmosphere. I have to tell you, it has literally

not stopped raining here for the entire year. Yes, I know. I saw. We've got a biblical year in store for us. It's going to be arcs and floods all the way through here, from here to December. That's my prediction. Some interesting things to talk about. We've got some very interesting things to talk about. We're going some very interesting things to talk about.

We're going to talk about Mr Bates in the post office, the ITV drama, and the ramifications of it, the fallout of it. The impact of it. The impact of it. Can we talk about The Traitors, which is back on the BBC? There will be no spoilers. There will be absolutely zero spoilers from either of us, but we are going to talk about how we would win The Traitors,

what tactics and strategy we would use to win The Traitors. I feel like you're going to be better at this than me but i have got some ideas i think i've seen a chink in their armor i think i've seen that i also want to talk at the end a little bit about um luke littler the 16 year old darts player and the phenomenon that that became and how everyone uh fell in love with darts and what that means and sport on tv and stuff like that. And I think maybe talk about the Golden Globes. The Golden Globes happened last night. We're recording this on a Monday and we'll talk about that and which sort of formally kick off awards season for the movies. We've got a lot to talk about.

Post office scandals, traitors, darts and Golden Globes. Yes, please. That's a commute I want to be on. Shall we? All right then, shall we? Yeah, come on. Miss Debates versus the Post Office. Now, this is ITV's dramatisation of the story of the wrongly convicted postmasters,

which aired on consecutive nights last week and is available on Catch Up on ITVX. Now, I'm just going to do a bit of background because I guess the whole point about it, a large part about why we're talking about this is this is a story that's sort of gone under people's radar for various reasons, which we'll come to. And you have written about this for a number of years. I have written about this for some time. I was by no means, the first people to start writing about it were writing about it way back in 2009. We will come to those as well.

I should say first that it is the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history. It is a tale of complete corporate psychopathy in which the victims were that very backbone of England, postmasters and postmistresses. In 1999, basically, what happened is that the post office installed, by decree, a new computer system called Horizon, which began throwing up errors in people who ran post offices in their accounts. And they were sort of forced to make up the shortfalls. And they were told that it wasn't happening to anyone else.

There was a helpline you could ring. People lost their businesses. They borrowed from everyone. They lost their homes. And eventually the post office began prosecuting them. Around 900 were prosecuted. 736 were convicted on faulty evidence. And I'm afraid it's pretty clear that that evidence was knowingly faulty.

Hundreds went to jail. Now they were imprisoned pregnant, they're still in their teens in one case, on their young child's birthday, in old age, high security jails where they saw and suffered themselves terrible things. At least 60 have died without seeing justice or compensation and at least four have taken their own lives. They were shunned, they've been put into physical and mental problems from which they've never recovered. But not one of the people responsible for this miscarriage of justice has ever been brought to justice or even been held accountable. There is an inquiry ongoing, again, we'll come to it. But ITV have dramatized this story. Alan Bates, who is one of the wronged postmasters, who has

masterminded the campaign, which has been beyond uphill struggle. It was like a war, who is one of the wronged postmasters, who has masterminded the campaign, which has been beyond uphill struggle. It was like a war, really, one of the victims said this weekend, and you can believe it. He's played by Toby Jones in the drama. And it's been, this is a story, it's had a huge impact on people. Talking to people at ITV, they screened it in this part of January, which is the very best viewing of the year, really. And they really pushed it. And I must say that I was speaking to people that some people, a million downloaded it and watched the whole season in one go, which is like off the charts on binge watching. Have you seen it, Richard? Yes, I saw all four episodes. And it's fascinating, isn't it? Because it's a genuinely mind-bogglingly awful story.

It's awful what happened to these people. And it's awful that it was done, as you say, it seems to have been done knowingly. Now, people have been writing about this for a while. Computer Weekly were the first people to bring it up at all. Private Eye have written about it. You've written about it a lot. So it's a story that I felt...

I do not go right back to the beginning on this one, and I should say that right from the start, but Nick Wallace, the journalist for the BBC, who, I mean, this is not denigrating local news at all. He was a fantastic, and he's now a freelancer, but he details very well in his book, Great Post Office Scandal. I mean, the struggle to get a tiny item on local news about it,

on local TV news, was huge. And he kept plugging. And it's extraordinary that it's taken this long. It's really a sort of over-20-year story. It's fascinating that it takes a terrestrial television drama, that much maligned species that we're told no-one watches anymore, to really raise it to the biggest story in the country a real lightning rod so suddenly the politicians are having to take it seriously and it is an extraordinary thing that why why people sort

of cry conspiracy and incompetence about a million different things a day on twitter and and on facebook that this thing was staring us in the face all along. This is what it really looks like. It's absolutely extraordinary. This is, you know, in a way it has everything. It has all the ingredients for a drama because it's a sort of tale of executives and computers being believed over ordinary people who, by the way,

I mean, the postmistresses, postmasters, the least gangsterish class out there. They're really pillars of their communities. And for this to happen, you sort of feel it could happen to anybody because if it could happen to so many people and such dreadful consequences, and then no one really, it never had the purchase on the public imagination. And I must say that the mainstream media in general have not, with some exceptions,

have not been great at covering it. They're certainly covering it now. But, you know, don't worry if you're not fully caught up, because the second best time to start caring about it is now. The Inquiry is running right now as we speak. You can watch it on their YouTube channel. It's really well run, the Inquiry. The Judge Wynne Williams is in charge of it, and their YouTube channel is very good. And this week they've got Fujitsu, who are the people who are responsible for the Horizon computer system.

People haven't been adequately compensated. There are three different schemes for compensation, none of which are properly adequate. And as I say, many people have died without receiving any of it. What I think is interesting, to talk about the drama itself, because that's what we do on this show.

The screenwriter Gwyneth Hughes has had, I remember when I first heard about this which was quite a long time ago that it was going to happen. I was so thrilled they were going to do it but I did think, God, I don't envy you having to try and wrestle that material because the sheer scale of it trying to wrestle it into individual stories

she used the figure of Alan Bates which is by far the best thing to do. And to try and kind of get it, she said that when she was writing it, she had this sort of image in her mind of Avengers Assemble, except instead of superheroes, it was people in like woolly hats driving Austin minis. And she's done a fantastic job in making it very clear.

And I mean, God, what a sinister computer. You know, when you look at this little computer system, this horizon terminal beeping kind of malevolently away under these counters, it really is a chill. And so I think she's done a sort of fantastic job. ITV have done a fantastic job in actually going for this story. I have seen a lot of people on social media and other places saying, well, I'm really annoyed it's taken a television drama to bring this to people's attention.

Why? That's absolutely fantastic for, as you say, a linear terrestrial broadcast drama to suddenly ignite the public consciousness like this. There are other examples and we can talk about some of those in a minute. But isn't that a most wonderful story? And you know what? I was in touch with Rebecca Thompson, who we've talked about, who wrote the first Computer Weekly story about in 2009. None of these people, they're thrilled about what's happened in the drama. Whatever it takes to get it over the line, for whatever reason, the way you can like mass, raise mass consciousness about this, that television has done that is, I that, I think is an incredible story. There are other stories out there. The loan charge scandal, these are things that people don't really know about, but which I hope people and broadcasters will think, well,

hang on, let's get into that. What are other things we could do to kind of create these mass moments about something that's real and really happening now? And extraordinarily cast as well. I think, you know, you've got Toby Jones as Alan Bates. And I think it's a good rule of thumb if you're a politician or an executive somewhere and you're having trouble with somebody at the moment and you're trying to get one over on them just think in 20 years time could the person I'm trying to get one over on possibly be played by Toby Jones in a drama on ITV and if they could then you're probably in the wrong you're losing but yeah to have Toby Jones and Julie Hesman-Halge

and Monica Dolan, just great ITV names. I kept expecting Jason Watkins to turn up, maybe in series two. It humanises the story so perfectly. But the material they are working with, it's so devastating. I mean, you want to throw things at the screen. The woman at the heart of this thing, Paula Venels.

Now, Paula Venels has not been charged with anything. She's the subject of this current inquiry, one of the many subjects, but she's not been charged with anything. She got a CBE in 2019, the year 2019. So can she be all bad? That's all I'm saying. They wouldn't give her a CBE if she'd done something wrong. Alan Bates has refused his OBE while she still retains hers. Oh, that's great.

Oh, that's something to get behind in 2024. Unless she's innocent. Unless she's innocent. No, Sir Alan Bates, I think. Which is Sir Alan Bates. But wasn't Alan Bates the actor, Sir Alan Bates? Was he? Oh, right.

Well, I'm happy for him to be in the upper chamber, quite frankly. Can he be in the House of Lords? I'm quite happy for it, yeah. I think that... Michelle Mo upper chamber, quite frankly. Can he be in the House of Lords? I'm quite happy for it, yeah. I think that... Michelle Moanout, him in. Oh, yeah. Come on, what a trade-off. One by one, let's try and raise the bar.

Promotion and relegation from the House of Lords. We should, that's something we could do this year. Yes, well, I mean, that is really what Lords reform might look like. Exactly, like the playoffs at Wembley. Yes. I think that there's something to be said. We're all in silos. I get it.

We're all in bubbles and, you know, people can shout and talk all they want about certain subjects. And it comes to the point where you're talking to a smaller and smaller group of people. There's something that only television can do and only terrestrial television can do. And that's get millions upon millions upon millions of people to watch something. And that's get millions upon millions upon millions of people to watch something. And if you've got five million people, six, seven, by the time all the ITVX figures are put in, that is quite a significant proportion of the British people and certainly enough of a proportion of the British people for this to be a genuine story. By the way, I think it's going to be a lot more than that.

I think it could go up to ten and I think it could be their biggest drama of the year. Which would be so great and such a testament to Alan Bates and to all the other incredible campaigners who've been through everything. But fascinating that politicians have learned over the last 10, 15 years that they can ignore almost everything. Because they recognise that everything is siloed and they recognise that after the first initial sort of flame of something, it burns out smaller and smaller, you know, gets smaller and smaller and then it disappears. So you can ignore stuff. Trump understands you can ignore stuff. Rishi Sunak has now understood. You have four news cycles a day. You can just turn it over onto something else.

Exactly that. But everybody still recognises and you can see that Sunak recognises that sometimes a story leaps to the top of the agenda and is staying there. And ITV and terrestrial drama has done that this week. And actually, there are very few. I was looking back and I was trying to sort of make a do. I'm sure I've left some out, but a little bit of an audit of these TV dramas that actually made a difference to public policy, to social consciousness about an issue. And there are really, obviously, the main first one that people say is Cathy Come Home, which was about a young family that become homeless.

And that's in 1966. That's directed by Ken Loach, written by Jeremy Sanford. That changed things. Not quite, almost in the public imagination, people think it changed more. Who bombed Birmingham? Again, ITV, 1990. That was about the Birmingham pub bomb. These are the things, there are very few that actually make a difference,

but this kind of catapulted that story back to public consciousness and the actual interrogated the story. And in the next year, the Birmingham Six were exonerated in the Court of Appeal. Jimmy McGovern's Hillsborough was a huge part, again, for ITV, it was a huge part of getting public consciousness and pushing for the inquiry or inquiries as it turned out but there weren't

that many it's interesting that some of these haven't been on the most of these haven't been on the BBC in the mid 80s they had stuff like

Threads which really changed there was that kind of spate of kind of the idea of nuclear horror in America they had one which was called The Day After I think

and there was one that the BBC made called The War Game, which was so shocking about what would happen in nuclear war that they couldn't broadcast it. And they ended up broadcasting it around that mid-80s moment. They didn't broadcast it for 20 years. Oh, wow. And we haven't had a nuclear war, so those worked. No, so those, yeah.

But it contributed to people thinking, what are we doing here? And it contributed to the idea of weapons proliferation. By the way, I should say at time of recording, we haven't had a nuclear war. We haven't had, yes, please. We're recording this on Monday morning. If this is the last thing you hear, I'm incredibly sorry. So you say the inquiry is still ongoing.

We can watch it on the YouTube channel of? You can watch it on the Post Office Inquiry YouTube channel. It's very easy to access, and it will be starting again on Thursday, the 11th of January. And we can play the game of who do we cast in Mr. B versus the post office too yes kudos to itv and to everyone in that and but most kudos of all to alan bates and the incredible campaigners and it's so lovely to have that story properly out there and in a way that's never going to be ignored again absolutely shall we move on should we just do a slight one-show-type gear change and talk about The Traitors?

Yes, please. As I say, no spoilers. I absolutely promise you that. But the first three episodes have dropped. The next three episodes are dropping on Wednesday. We've watched the first three. I thought the fun thing to do, because I don't want to give away spoilers

because people will watch this at different times, is talk about how we might go about winning The Traitors because when you watch, that's all you're doing, right? You're looking at how you would react. So The Traitors is a show where I think about 22 contestants are locked up in a Scottish castle. Three of them are made, around three are made traitors and the rest are called the faithful

and they have to work out, almost like a sort of game of wink murder, who is a traitor and who is a faithful and they have to undergo a few missions every, a different mission every day for fun. And at night, they sit around something called the round table, which is the centrepiece of the show, where they accuse each other. And also the traitors every night after that decide on one person to murder.

And last year, it was a huge first series on the BBC One, their biggest entertainment launch for years and years and years, a massive hit. First of all, would you rather be a traitor or a faithful? I would rather be a traitor. The clue is in the title. You surprise me. The traitors are on the game. Yeah, it's much harder to win as a faithful, although in the first series, one of the first three series, some faithfuls have won. But I don't think that they were the greatest strategists I think more of the game is luck I certainly think it's easier being a traitor that's for sure you

just have control over the game yeah slightly there in as much as anyone ever has control over the game so talk me through how you would win okay first of all you walk in day one day one I've got to have a good social game I know I have because it's so much you also get these ones who appear in the first episode and say, I'm a master strategist. I'm really good at this stuff. That's how I'll win the game.

It's like, yes, but you're not a very nice person. We swiftly see those depart. So I would do that. I think if I was a faithful, honestly, if I was lucky enough,

I would try and identify the apex predator, the most powerful traitor. Yeah. Say to everyone, it could never be him. Become friends with that person. I don't know what I'm saying. It's a man, it might be a lady.

I could never be him or her. It could never be. The one person I know it isn't, and say that all along, get to the final and knife them there. That's good. But then you have to know who the traitor is. Yeah, well, I back myself.

You back yourself. Because you read people. I'm a reader of people. Although, of course, one of the great satisfying things about the show is watching people who are really confident. They're confident enough to be on television, get it wrong every night, and then be shown to have got them wrong every night.

Because this is what we want to happen in real life. This is what we want to see. We're all around people all day long who are wrong, but don't quite get it, and maybe will never get it. And this is like watching very confident people be showing every day yeah you're wrong about that yeah you got that completely wrong immediate consequence is such a beautiful and there was a guy in the first series in the uk who was a magician and he was it was about three episodes in and he you know what he tired of the shenanigans but he let the little people play their game and

he said guys you have to understand this is what i do for a living, and I'm pretty good at it. I read people. I'm telling you now that John is a traitor. Listen, if he's not, get rid of me. But he is. Bye-bye, dickhead. But we see that in public life all the time, right? That's all Twitter is.

It's people going, the thing you don't understand about this situation and that I do understand is this. Hashtag thank me later. So we see it all the it all the time and of course those people never get proved wrong with you if they do it's months later yeah on this so he goes yeah uh it's john um just read people i just have an instinct that you guys don't have and then of course john is a faithful and this guy's going you know what my bad my bad you're like yeah but everyone knows you're an idiot yeah like we knew but it's so lovely to see people get their uh comeuppance a couple of clairvoyants haven't done as best as well as they might have done yeah there's an australian clairvoyance and yeah but

there's a clairvoyant i think that signal was blocked in this clairvoyant in this new one but it's interesting to have a clairvoyant in there because the truth truth is, everyone's name is mentioned at some point, right? People keep saying, oh, it's so-and-so, it's so-and-so, it's so-and-so. At some point, a clairvoyant can get lucky and get you. And also, there might be, if they suddenly go, oh, Paula is the traitor, and she actually is, that's a problem for the traitors. Because there's enough people who go, well, the clairvoyant said it. Well, it's a Derek Okora situation.

So I would always get rid of a clairvoyant immediately. Not because they actually know, but because they can influence people. There's a glitch in the first series of the traitors, which is this. You have to think about the show as a producer. In the first series, this is how we see each murder. They discuss the murders. They get it down to three people, and then they're all sat down at breakfast

and the people come in one by one until we discover who's been murdered. But because it's TV, we know they're discussing three people. So the last person through the door who hasn't been murdered was always someone they had been thinking about murdering. Because as TV viewers, we want it to be

between... My children identified this the other day, and I was like, wow, how had I not thought of that? So you've got John or Mary. Yes. So in that first series, you would know exactly who was not a traitor by who came through the door last.

Or surely if they repeated it for the second series, because those people might not have thought it like that because they'd never seen the show air. Well, that's the thing. The second series, of course, they're changing it up because they're not idiots might not have thought it like that because they'd never seen the show well that's the thing the second series of course they're changing it up because they're not idiots yeah but if i was in there the last person come through the door i would take a side and say listen this is just between me and you but i know for a fact you're not a traitor and i would say that to everybody who came last through the door and that would protect put a protective bubble around me firstly Firstly, the people thought I was trusted. I trusted them.

So if they're faithful, they're like, oh, man, yeah, this is great. This is proof. But if they're a traitor, as you say, that's the way to make friends with an apex traitor. So I can say, I know for a fact that you're definitely not a traitor. So that's what you have to do. All you've got to do in this game is survive for as long as you can. It's not about finding traitors this game at all it's just not because if you get rid of a traitor they replace the traitor the traitors are

like the sugar babes you know they were there's there's a there's a never-ending they're exactly that they can just replace them so all you've got to do is get through to that last five and when you're there if you've been a faithful all along good luck but at some point you would have been made a traitor by that. But you can't stay in that game that long and not have been made a traitor. I would like to be made a traitor. Sorry, that's the other thing I would like to say. I would like to be recruited.

That works. The key, as we all know, is the key in life as well. It's a key in every single reality show. And yet people forget every single time is shut up for the first couple of episodes. I mean, honestly, if you're a traitor or you're faithful, keep quiet. Why are these people being, do you know what? I'm going to lead this. I think you're a traitor.

You could have just said nothing. It's possible not to tweet. It's just, it's totally possible not to say anything. It is possible not to tweet. That's exactly right. And just keep quiet for a few weeks. It's like those people in The Apprentice who go, yeah, I'll be team leader first week you think you've just moved your chances from being one of

20 people to get knocked out to one of two people and no one will remember in week three that you said you were going to be the team leader and in the traitors it's the same don't accuse anybody don't be a character don't even wear an unusual hat. Don't peacock in any way whatsoever. I would always be sat down so people didn't realise I was really tall because that would be enough. They'd go, do you know the thing about Richard? He's quite tall, isn't he? I'd have enjoyed seeing you on the missions try to achieve this, but yes.

I think you'd have broken your cover there. You reckon? Yeah. Oh, yes, true. Why is he sitting down when he's swimming? It's so weird here's one of the key things about could you win the traitors because you know we can sit here and chat about you know making alliances and uh you know not standing out too much but i was talking

to um one of the producers of it and he said here's one of the key things you have to remember we do this at incredible speed he said they are locked up every single day. Someone's being banished and someone's being murdered every single day. And then there's these, you know, loads and loads of filming. We've got to do the tasks and challenges. The tension is ratcheted. He said when they go into that round table,

they play that song, The Hanging Tree, from Hunger Games. No, they don't. That's brilliant. Just to make it even more haunting. And we've all been in situations with groups of people where we're thrown together where reality does become heightened. Yeah. You know, there is groupthink does happen. And however smart we like to think we are, it would happen to us as well.

So they are under incredible pressure. Someone has a sort of full scale verbal collapse in one of these episodes. Yeah, which is amazing. The first time I've heard the word, am I or am I not? But it's really... Am I or am I not? He keeps saying am I or am I not? Yeah.

And knows he's having it and is sort of having an out of body like... He's absolutely furious in his own breakdown. I don't understand what's happened to me. I think he says, I always thought I was tough and I'm sort of breaking here. I think what you have to be essentially is someone who's kind but incredibly good at lying, which is quite a rare combination. But the way I would get through it is always think as a producer so as i say the little trick with the last person yeah through the door uh again i talked to the producer said are you still doing that they said no no we've changed that i thought that's slightly annoying

but i can still use it to my advantage one way or another uh and to think who was it most interesting they've cast as a traitor if I was the producer of this show who would I cast yeah as a traitor which of the quiet people would I cast as a traitor and again that thing if they always tend to go maybe we should look at the quiet people you think yeah yeah of course you should look at the quiet people the herd behavior is so extraordinary there's such a lot of I saw Goody Proctor with the devil. Yes. And then everyone feels like, well, if we all get behind that person today, then we're all sort of... That happens a lot.

Yeah, and they do amazing things like, you know, someone... You know, if you do something like, when you cheer when the faithful is found, for whatever reason, people go, oh, that's what a traitor would do. You think, what a traitor... I'll tell you what a traitor would do. A traitor would do nothing. Yeah. A traitor would do. I think we do. I'll tell you what a traitor would do. A traitor would do nothing. A traitor would absolutely keep quiet because all they have to do is keep quiet.

By and large, quite uninsightful people get through to the end of that show because why would you vote them off? But if someone is... There's a stupidity premium, if I can put it that way. There sort of is. But stupidity mixed with kindness. So if you've got stupidity mixed with extreme aggressiveness,

then that's unpredictable and you have to get rid of it. Also that mother-father thing from reality TV. If you become a sort of older statesman, stateswoman figure, that helps you a lot. Yeah, that's what people want. People need to feel part of their family. I will say of these first three episodes, there are some genuine gasp-out-the-heart moments.

I mean, there really are. If you haven't watched them, there's some proper brilliant stuff in there. And again, completely different to the last series, and that's testament to the producers. But there's one particular moment in episode three. Oh, which is an absolute marmalade dropper. It was a bit late in the evening.

I didn't have any marmalade, but nearly lost the drink. I mean, really, it was extraordinary. And I must say, a shout out to the superlative presenting skills of Claudia Winkleman, who I think does great. Because she's normally sort of like your best ally and your best friend and giggles along with you. And in this, she has to be something really quite different. And I feel credit to her. And of course, to her Highland stylist.

There's barely a woman out there not wanting every coat and jumper. Also, I like it when she breaks character a little bit and can't help but be nice. Yeah. She does every now and again. And then she goes, oh, no, hold on, Claudia. You're supposed to, hold on. You have to be tough. So I would say if you haven't started watching, it's really well worth your time.

The first three episodes are already on iPlayer. And the next ones don't drop till this Wednesday, so you can catch up and it's amazing. And there's another three are dropping this Wednesday. That's right, isn't it? And honestly, I would be voted out in week three. It's the truth. Oh, I'd be in week one. It's like, would you ever be

Prime Minister Marina? It would be a failed state in six hours, I should think. Do you know what? I'd be a worse Prime Minister than you. No, no, it's not possible. Oh, God, yeah, it'd be awful. It's not possible. Yeah, don't you think? I can only think of one other person in the rest of stable

who'd be a worse Prime Minister than us two. I'm not going to mention his name. Shall we take a little break? Yes, let's do that now. Working at your local Tim's is more than serving coffee. It's building connections with a team in a great environment, connecting with your guests in the community and participating in programs like Smile Cookie and Hockey Card Trade Nights. So join your local Tim's team today. Apply now at careers.timhortons.ca.

Welcome back to the Restless Entertainment. Can I talk, before we talk about the Golden Globes, I just want to touch on the darts for a moment. Please touch on them heavily. Because everyone had, you mustn't touch on them too heavily. No. So a light grip is the key for playing darts. Everyone went darts insane because of Luke Littler, this 16-year- uh from warrenton who got through to the final in his first year and i just wanted to talk a little bit about what that might mean

and uh what what wider things we can take from it firstly i'll say that darts is the single best television sport the reason that anyone who turned on because there's a 16 year old to watch it and loved it is because the format of darts is the best format there is. A small number of legs. Don't write in. He's not going to budge on this one. Oh, I ain't budging. But also, when I explain my thinking, you'll go,

oh, do you know what? At first I thought you were wrong, but now I think you're right. And perhaps you should be Prime Minister. The first thing I bring in is to implement darts formats on other sports it's all jeopardy it's all moments of jeopardy darts they have a very small number of legs in each set so first to three so even the first leg of any set is very very important it has this beautiful thing if you have to finish on a double which is the hardest shot you take in the entire leg. So you can be miles ahead and still lose. Any format creator would be so happy to have created that.

That double two will be giving him nightmares. Exactly. Do you see what I mean? Whereas if you just had to get to 501, you'd say, oh, you've done it. Let's do the next set. I want to compare and contrast it to tennis. In darts, first to three wins you a set. In tennis, firstly each of the games are longer, but also you've got to win six games to win a set. So if you win a game of tennis, you have to win six games each for three sets.

That's how you win a game of tennis. Tennis will be twice as exciting if you had to win three games each in six sets so it's the first of six sets you win three games in each set then every single game of tennis at Wimbledon is exciting not for the purists I get that but sport isn't for the purists right you want to grow sport we could totally do something with tennis has the best commentator in all of sport in who is entirely wasted on his sport McEnroe he's amazing again please don't write him unless you're john mackinac in which case feel free to write in but sport the key thing is don't reduce the amount of effort anyone has to put in to win okay you have to you know like in the darts you have to win seven sets to win that

final it's a lot it's a lot of throwing. There was once a documentary called Darts Wives and a guy called Chris Mason, his wife was on there and he said, they think you're unfit, don't they? But we put one of those pedometers on you when you're playing darts

and at the end of the game, how much did you walk? He went, yeah, it's about 450 metres, wasn't it? He goes, yeah, it's a lot. It is a lot. So if I've moved on to tennis if you're

playing exactly the same amount of games there are twice as many big moments of jeopardy in exactly the same number of games the game is the same the same people are serving you're hitting exactly the same shots over exactly the same period of time but if you're watching there are twice as many exciting bits darts does that darts knows that a small number of legs in a large number of sets sometimes the darts just does set just as leg play and it's boring it's like first to 11 and stuff like that but if you're doing sets and legs that's the way to do sports so anyone who was turning on just because there's this 16 year old there actually you're sort of drawn in because you are never, ever bored.

But the ratings were extraordinary. Now, weirdly, we don't just throw this podcast together. It was on at the same time as Mr. Bates vs. The Post Office and The Traitors' first episode. So they all launched at the same time. And guess which got the biggest ratings? The darts. Now, of course, with catch-up and so on, it won't. But the only thing people really, really, really are watching now live is sport.

So 2022, the top 100 shows on American network television, how many do you reckon were scripted shows, dramas and sitcoms? The top 100 broadcasts? I don't know, tell me. Zero. Really? 82 were NFL games. 82 of the top 100.s? I don't know. Tell me. Zero. Really? 82 were NFL games. 82 of the top 100.

Ah, OK. Others were college games. Others were college basketball games. There is not a single... I think 90-odd of the top 100 things are sport. That's where terrestrial television is going. There's more and more and more money... But it's also where streaming is going.

And actually, people are talking about Netflix are going to have to get in to, clearly Amazon are getting into live sport in a much bigger way. Netflix, Disney is trying to put together ESPN as a standalone streamer. And everybody is going to have to get into the linear of sport,

whether or not you're a streaming service. Well, you can't fast forward through the efforts if something's live. You know, you cannot fast forward through them. And, you know, that darts, you know, peaked at 4.8 million. You could not launch a new show to 4.8 million. You just, you could not do it. And sports does it all the time. And it throws up these stories.

Is that bigger than the ashes? It's bigger than any show Sky Sports has ever had apart from football. Isn't that fascinating? In the entire history of Sky Sports and it's because sport throws up characters that general culture doesn't. If you're a marketing executive

you are not promoting Luke Littler as the face of your television programme. However, if you play sport, if you're the best in the world, you're the best in the world. It doesn't matter if you're 16 or whatever you are. So someone like Luke Littler comes through, and you know what? It turns out that is what British people want.

British people do want to see this kid who's 16 years old, who's incredibly articulate, who's incredibly good at what he does, who gives us something culturally we haven't seen before. And it'll be fascinating to see what our culture does to him over the next year and over the next five years and over the next 10 years. One imagines over the next year it will give him a very rough ride. One hopes over the next three years it'll get easier

and one hopes by the time he's 26, he'll be just a very well-played, very, very happy sportsperson. Now, on an earlier episode of this podcast you suggested that they made an amazing No Holds Barred behind the scenes documentary on professional darts. Like a drive to survive for darts. Are they now doing this? They are doing that. Sky are doing it. Isn't that great?

Yes. I mean the content almost that goes around the sport in this current era is just as important. Drive to Survive has obviously been absolutely massive for bringing audiences into Formula One. And the more you have sort of a sport-adjacent content, the more your sport is amplified.

It's exactly that. Sport has always been and always will be soap opera. Nothing else. It's fine to see that someone scores a wonderful goal and that's lovely, we love seeing it, but it is soap opera. It's who's a goody, who's a baddy, whose father used to play for this team

and they're now playing against, you know mum you know originally played football for england and wasn't paid and now you're on a million quid you know it's it's soap opera it's all it is but you can't do soap opera if you don't know the personalities and one thing darts has got it's got personalities in it you know in a way in a way that other sports do not have. They've called this documentary, by the way, Darts. Which I quite like. I would have called it... The Darts, surely. The Darts is what I would have called it.

But listen... Absolutely essential definite article. They know their business. So I'll say this. Listen, we talked about a 69-year-old sub-postmaster, Alan Bates. Now we're talking about a 16-year-old kid from Warrington, Luke Littler.

And isn't it amazing where we find our heroes? Yeah. nine-year-old sub-postmaster Alan Bates. Now we're talking about a 16-year-old kid from Warrington, Luke Littler. And isn't it amazing where we find our heroes? Yeah. And it speaks to us as a country that those two people, you know, are what we want to consume. Dominated the first week of January 2024. Absolutely wonderful. And on that note,

let's talk about some celebrities, shall we? The last night was the Golden Globes. We were recording this on a Monday. And that is the traditional kick-off of the film award seasons, although they do award television as well. Big winners were Oppenheimer, Poor Things

with the Emma Stone film on the TV side, Succession which is not unexpected. Barbie was sort of overlooked quite a lot. They created this special sort of category for it. What was it called? Box Office and Cinematic Achievements,

which was a reason to make Taylor Swift attend your award ceremony because her Eras tour movie, which was sold directly into theatres, was nominated and she did attend. So that was probably enough for them. And then Barbie got that particular award. But I was trying to find out from someone who was there last night what it was like. And they said that basically this used to be run by the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, these awards, the Golden Globes. And there have been a number of scandals, corruption, sexual misconduct, diversity, which I won't trouble you with today.

Suffice to say, they're now owned by Chelsea they're now owned by Chelsea owner, Todd Bowley. And everything he touches turns to gold, doesn't it? Well, the old Bowley touch was in evidence for the studios last night because apparently there was a seating arrangement that no one was happy with. The type of staging meant that rather than everyone being down in the pit, you know, like, we're all really, really important and we're all going to win our awards,

there were tiers of tables which is potential you know apparently some people were thinking they might not even go um but it was anyway and it seems to be from the clips i've seen you couldn't watch it in the uk as far as i can work out despite the fact i subscribe to paramount plus but um there was some sort of fiascoid hosting by a comedian called Joe Coy, who I wasn't aware of and on current evidence probably won't be revisiting the back catalogue of. Although is Chelsea's new left back, I'm being told. I won't be as good as all the other ones. Brand extensions. Yes, it was quite an awkward vibe.

But I think what's interesting about this is that awards used to be absolutely massive business for the studios. They all wanted them because there was a huge awards bump. The Golden Globes were always a little bit kind of wacky and did their own thing. But they were, to some extent, one of the precursors to the Oscars, which were obviously the big ones. But the Oscar bump, as they call it, which used to be if your movie was nominated and let alone won, we got a huge sort of boost. I thought the oscar bump was cocaine sorry i there's probably less of that as in there's less there's less of both so what's happened to this world i think what's happened um but theater owners are saying that the box office

you know i mean we've got quite had a quite weird year in 2023 because barbenheimer the barbenheimer phenomenon did a whole lot of business for theaters and i they are predicting that theaters theater owners are saying that their takings will be down 25 this coming year all over america and other places movie theaters are being turned into soft play areas climbing walls it's very you know it's a really difficult time but i think what's interesting about this is that there is now such a huge disconnect between the movies that people go to see and the movies that win the awards. And this is not necessarily the case with Oppenheimer, but in almost all these other things, you know, in the old days, something like obviously The Godfather opens huge. The Godfather would now be a niche film. I mean, Rain Man, this is in today's money, almost a billion dollar movie.

There's no way Rain Man would be anything like that these days. So what happens is that people are going to see the fourth, fifth, tenth iteration of franchise movies, which are the studio's big tentpoles. And then there's this whole other sort of hived off side category, which was movies that might win awards. You know, I mean, I loved Anatomy of a Four past Past Lives, but these are not things that people throng to see. And that has become more and more and more over the last two decades, a huge disconnect. And in a way, it means not only that award ceremonies are less culturally relevant,

which I definitely think they are, but also that the films, to some extent, are not really the ones that people see. So you kind of wonder why you have this whole huge apparatus. There is prestige attached to awards of course there is i mean i personally don't like awards in general for creative endeavors that's a really unpopular opinion i think any kinds of awards actually i think are useless and stupid you turn them away turn them back i don't want it i do not want your columnist of the year award but i i have to say that i don't i don't but i i have to say i think that's about all awards.

I shall say that. I will say this to you. You will prize my TV Choice Award out of my cold dead hands. Tell you that for nothing. But listen, I remember talking to one of the VEET writers and they said, you know, one year they were at the Emmys and they were sitting and it was like they were sort of, you know, pitching Breaking Bad against Game of Thrones. And they were like, just why are breaking bad against game of thrones and they're like just why are we doing this they're both brilliant you know the idea that you're sort of in some kind of weird confected competition but that's what sports for that's what sports for

yeah but it is i don't think you should no it's not yeah of course it's show business no it's not yeah oh don't be ridiculous no this creators of endeavors are not sport but you could say sport but luke litter and luke humphries you could have just said you know what you're both great in different ways. No, because it's sport. Share the money. But you don't do that with art. Of course you do it with art.

No, you don't. Otherwise art is boring. You know, there's nothing better than, listen, I love to watch television programmes, but it's more fun to then rank them and say which are the best ten. Don't you think? No, I think that's unbelievably depressing. You love... No, unbelievably so. Of all the depressing things you've heard,

where would you rank that on a list? Because that's what I'm interested in. It's very male as well. Yes, oh, it is very... But, you know, listen, I've got news for you. Oh, listen, I love men. I've got a huge amount of time for them. But this is ridiculous.

I love it. I love those guys. No, but all I'm saying is I quite like that there are awards. I mean, the buy-in lives, they always go to the wrong people. But I don't think it does creative people any harm every now and again to have a little bit of... They're often revenue-gathering schemes. My industry, journalism, there are about three awards, which are always referred to, by the way, in any industry, as the Oscars of our industry. Yes.

Which I always find hilarious. There's plumbing awards. They're called the Oscars of our industry, which I always find hilarious. I see plumbing awards, they're called the Oscars, if you ever see them written, widely regarded as the Oscars of the plumbing industry. Do you know, there was about, it was quite a while ago now, but the awards industry became so big that there was something for a couple of years called the Awards Awards,

which awarded excellence in the awards industry because obviously these ceremonies take a lot, anyway, so they had a big ballroom up on Park Lane somewhere on park lane somewhere i like it i think it's a night out for people i think i think people quite enjoy it people in all industries like it but the one thing you know about everything from the golden globes to the plumbers awards is afterwards there's four or five plumbers going i cannot believe they've got best newcomer i mean have you seen as you bent i mean literally i was doing that 10 years ago but it's whatever the industry okay it's exactly the same can i a couple of things i thought about the golden

clothes firstly that monologue the joe coy monologue which you can watch online uh i was talking to someone who writes um a lot of uh uh you know award show things and whenever you do things like the bafters they will always cut to the person you're talking about, right? They're the only people there who are not going to laugh. So if you do a joke about Daniel Day-Lewis, of course, the director then cuts to Daniel Day-Lewis. Daniel Day-Lewis is not going to be laughing his head off. I was talking to somebody who wrote a joke about Robert De Niro. You know, suddenly all over the papers it goes, joke falls flat. And you think, well, no, everyone was laughing. It's just the camera was on Robert De Niro,

falls flat and you think well no everyone was laughing it's just the camera was on Robert De Niro who for whatever reason didn't enjoy the joke that was done about him so I think this is quite hard to write a monologue for awards firstly the host will say oh I'm going to write my own stuff and then two days beforehand we go actually I haven't I haven't had time to write my own stuff. You will then send a list of 50 gags. The production company will veto 40 of those gags for reasons of taste or whatever it is, or because they don't get them. The host will then not understand eight of the next 10. You are then told hastily to go away

and rewrite different versions of the gags you've wrote because we don't want to upset Leonardo DiCaprio. And then the host will then mangle the jokes that do exist and, as is the case of Joe Coy, slag off the writers, which is what he did, which is the one thing you must not do. Another thing is, I read the headline this morning that Timothee Chalamet and Kylie were on a date.

Kylie Jenner, that is. Littleish Kardashian. But that's it. I suddenly realised, oh, of course, you're so out of touch. Because I was thinking, blimey, Kylie, you go for it. I thought, that's not bad. But you think, the fact that they called her Kylie instead of Kylie Jenner. I thought, has she even taken the single name of Kylie?

No, I don't know. She hasn't taken the single name. That was ridiculous. Okay, good. So that wasn't me at fault. No, I don't think so. I think she should be Kylie Jenner in headlines. She's not a single name. That was ridiculous. Okay, good. So that wasn't me at fault. No, I don't think so. I think she should be Kylie Jenner in headline. She's not a single name

headline person. And finally, how is the bear, and how are any of the actors in the bear, winning best comedy and best comedy actors? Explain that to me. It is not a comedy. They are not comedy actors. Well, it's interesting that it's... I mean, there's always these kind of category things where people are saying

why that should... I think there's another controversy where people are saying, why is Barbie adapted screenplay? Because you've adapted it from a toy, which I think actually is part of the problem, perhaps, with the movie is that it is a giant movie made in the service of Mattel. That's one of the big things. Much as I enjoyed going to it and enjoyed seeing it, and it's great what they've done, there's a real chill down my spine that you make something like that in the service of a toy corporation. But yes, no, I don't know.

A lot of people are saying they shouldn't be in those categories, but I guess you take where you're nominated and where you can win. But if you're... I just don't understand there's a jury that you watch The Bear and go, yeah, that's the best comedy. I don't understand how you watch, and it won the best comedy. Jeremy Allen White won Best Comic Actor. Io Ederberry won Best Comic Actress.

And if you did a super cut of the funniest bits of both of their performances, there is not, and by the way, brilliant performances. It's an amazing show. But it is not funny. It is not Del Boy the way brilliant performances it's an amazing show it's great but it is not funny it is not Del Boy falling through the bar you know which is what

I mean it's not funny yes and I think it's hard as you say for other comedies because it's so very good if it's in that category you sort of feel

you have to award it exactly that but yeah if I was any of the other actors from any other shows it's a bit come on muttering into their pints

my opinion is you shouldn't put art up against other art. I don't like it. I don't like award shows. To me, that's sport. To me, to say, is the bear funnier than Ted Lasso? Come on. Yes, it is. I'll say this about Jeremy Allen White, though.

Have you seen his Calvin Klein photos That broke the internet Yes obviously I can see why the internet was certainly cracked Damaged, faulty Goodness me, he's ripped Isn't he? Yes he is I can see why they gave him a best comedy performance

Give the guy anything I haven't written all over him We covered a lot didn't we We covered much ground Can we talk much more in future episodes about how much you hate awards and rankings and this and how much i love them well certainly for the next two months it will be i'm sure an ongoing runner um but so we're back on thursday aren't we for a question and answer we will now be doing two episodes every single week

one main episode like the one you've just listened to and one answering your questions which have all been so brilliant that they are actually a huge backlog of amazing questions there are so many good questions aren't there I love them and there's so many

I want to hear your answer to as well and people can still send in questions for future weeks episodes if you email us at the rest is entertainment at gmail.com

but we're looking forward to recording that and it'll be out on Thursday yes it will be out on Thursday. Yes, it will be. Right. Lovely.

See you then, everyone. See you then. Bye-bye. Bye.