The Rest Is Entertainment - CELEBRITY TRAITORS: Week Two Reaction

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Will Big Dog Theory spell the end of Jonathan Ross? Is Stephen Fry playing dumb? Why has Alan Carr become the ultimate villain? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde review the second batch of episodes from the record breaking Celebrity Traitors. Like this episode? Sign up to our club to gain access to 50 bonus episodes, ad-free listening and much, much more... Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at ⁠⁠therestisentertainment.com ⁠⁠ The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. Now, whether it's Scorsese and De Niro, Brits and a queue, or Glenn Powell and a slow-motion entrance into frame, some things are just better together. And Sky and Netflix do just that. Two heavyweight storytellers side by side on the Sky Essential TV package for just £15 a month, all in one place and on one bill. Call it the full ensemble. Sky Originals bringing gangs of London and the Day of the Jackal. Netflix delivering global obsessions like Squidgame and Wednesday. sky atlantic discovery plus and more than 90 other channels to that list and you've got the kind of

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We're going to be talking about it in depth. So if you don't want any spoilers, watch those episodes. Come back to us. but this is 100% non-spoiler-free. This is spoiler-full. This is full fat spoiler milk. I mean, let me just pick my jaw off the floor because we are on a cliffhanger now. Well, before we say anything, I think we're watching one of the great TV programs.

It is a joke how good it is. It's a joke. Everything that we wished it could be and more. It's traitors, but it's a great traitors. That's all you can ask for. Sorry, the ratings are now insane. The ratings are, we don't know the ratings yet for tonight. but we know for Wednesday

and they were bigger than strictly and it's midweek. So over seven millions. There's only two shows that are beaten it all year. One was the women's Euro finals and the other was Traitors, the final of the civilian version.

So this is going to go absolutely crazy in the next couple of weeks. But it deserves to. And it deserves to. Oh my God. Okay. A lot happened in the, so we got two episodes to catch up on.

Since we last did this, quite a lot has happened. Since we last spoke. Shall we... Do you remember like, Tom going, that seems a long time ago now. Maybe let's just start at the end right away quickly because I think we're all just thinking about

the choice of those three to be banished. Charlotte, Kate, or David. David. Our stable mate. I'm not even going to wait for you because it is quite obviously should be Charlotte. I think it should be Charlotte, yes. I think she's probably the most dangerous of those three people. David, I know they're sort of saying, he's so clever, he's so clever, isn't he?

He's going to catch on us. But at the moment he has, has it. He's just not a threat at the moment. And a couple of people have started saying, oh, maybe he's a traitor. So all you want in that world is for someone else to get rid of someone. That's great. But who's going to get rid of Charlotte? Probably no one. Kate is, I like, they said about Charlotte on Wednesday's episode, the thing about her is, she's so loud and so wrong. And normally you want to keep those people in, but, but, but, but, you know, you can sort of see that getting Charlotte out of the way will just remove another big personality from the game. They'll have to because she's wrongly backed it being Claire,

and then she'll just wheel around and do something totally, totally different. Well, that's a problem, like a stopped clock that's right twice a day. When someone like that is right, it's very difficult to budge them. Yeah, and she'll say a lot of stuff. She is unboundaried. Ruth was unboundaryed. Yes, in a great way. Ruth was...

For all the good it did her. As we've said so many times when discussing this show, guys, you really don't need to get a traitor early on. Yes. And they're still doing, oh, how bad are we at this? Yeah, not particularly bad. You've only even had two chances and there's 19 of you. And so statistically, yeah, you're absolutely fine.

Subconsciously, you're actually playing well because you don't need to get one. She, Ruth was, she just felt like you had to say and you had to get someone. I did find it, it is intriguing when someone, and I don't think I've seen this very much. First of all, I haven't seen a generational distaste like that on traitors ever. normally the older people in traitors and funny enough Jonathan Ross has become one of those he's 64 and the older and it's often older women get sort of patronised and sort of coddled and what have you and we're going to come to one significant very significant older women in a bit but normally they do in the civilian version of the format and but they don't get there's never any sort of

agro ruth clearly literally disliked Jonathan not in the game but actually and I found that quite interesting. She really wanted to shoehorn him almost, I think, into that sort of into the boomer bit of OK boomer. And it made me realize that in his career, Jonathan Ross has sort of outrun that stuff. He always seemed sort of youthful and like the bright young thing. And suddenly you think, oh, you're like an elder statesman now. And she really didn't like it. And what I find interesting is over the last few days, I've seen him, he's gone on a podcast and said, oh, I didn't like it.

I didn't like being traded. I didn't like having to do the line. I think he's nervous about, because as we said all along, it's a risk for celebrities to do this format because celebrities can, you know, go up as well as down in the public estimation. And I think we're already seeing a little bit of a rearguard action there with him saying, well, I didn't like it. I didn't like all the line. It's tricky, isn't it? I do think it's, again, the fascinating thing about this being a celebrity one, that's what I'm

always interested in is what is it about them being celebrities that makes this a different series. Jonathan in any regular series of this as a traitor has literally not put a foot wrong he's playing it brilliantly but because he's Jonathan Ross he is put in an almost impossible position because Joe Marla for example is able to say they're going to put one of the big dogs

up against each other Jonathan versus Stephen We will have a whole dedicated section to Joe Marla's theory We will get on to that But what it means is Jonathan's already starting with a disadvantage because they're sort of true you do sort of think, well, somebody like Jonathan will be a traitor. They talk about him like he's Klausovitz.

I mean, it's ridiculous. He's like, you know, Bismarck. No. But in the regular series, you don't know at that point. You can know who's older and who's younger or who's got a certain background and who doesn't, but you don't know who the alphas are at that stage. You don't know who the people, you know, but whereas he is copper-bottomed from the second he walks in and that puts a target on his back.

I find it very difficult to work at how he could have played it any better. and yet immediately he's in big trouble whereas Alan and Kat seemingly seeming to be in absolutely no trouble whatsoever they seem to be in the opposite of trouble yeah I mean at the end when he said is it just me or is this getting easier Jonathan and I was like it's just you

TikTok anyhow moving on to someone like Stephen who again has even more you know people say oh David's brilliant he's so clever they sort of have been told that they know that a bit but Stephen is like everyone's idea of the cleverest person

he's a sort of like that kind of national baseline. Especially when David O'Doshoga said he's the cleverest person we've met Well this is something Tom Goley should have realised that you know again you don't need to catch a trade at the start and there's a premium on looking street why do you think Stephen is bumbling around looking like an absolute idiot? I am assuming

on purpose because he isn't one and kind of becoming that person who just says oh I don't know this is so difficult you know, that will take Stephen quite far, but he can never win. Because ultimately, in my view, by the way, if he does win, then I'm very happy to say, oh my God, don't trust me on everything ever again. That's the great thing about traitors is you never know. No, you never know.

But yes, it would certainly be difficult for him to win. Yeah, because eventually suspicion will fall on him because people will just think he's too clever not to be a traitor. It's, there's no logic to it. But also, you can see occasionally, he is attempting to lead people in a clever way. He's made two comments, one in the previous week, where he said, you know, he talked about Sherlock Holmes and said, you know, don't forget in the evidence of any evidence whatsoever, you know, we're actually playing a different game here. And everyone, of course, ignores it. And goes, yeah, but I think Tamika looks. And then this week he said, I mean, we could just ignore what Claudia said, and we could all just vote and not talk. Because what he's basically saying is we get this wrong when the wisdom of crowds. Although they do heard far less than the civilians. Oh my God, there was like eight votes in a row, which were...

Constantly, it's all over the job. Especially when he got someone like a senior around. I mean, she could literally go for anyone. Staying with Stephen, yes, he will start to control, but in a different way to the way, obviously because he isn't a traitor. He understands the assignment, which is that they don't need to catch anybody, and actually just bumbling under the radar is by far the best game plan for him, particularly given everything...

get the numbers down, get the numbers down and then you can start seeing what's going on. But it's amazing, you know, because this one, I think this might be in the British one, the best group of contestants we've ever had. Firstly, because they've already seen quite a lot of series of it. And secondly, there's something about the way their TV minds work that really, really helps them out. There are very few people in there that think like regular contestants. There's the odd one or two, which is just, I've got a feeling. I'm going to go with my gut on this.

So there's the odd one or two person who plays. like a regular traitors but most of them are kind of going know what is going on here it's amazing how many good game players there are and you know if you look at the interviews with either of the joe's you look at you know cedia any of these people can i just say that his joe marla's comment his theory is by far the most intelligent theory that has been floated on the screen namely that the big dog theory the big dog theory immediately became christend jonathan probably has been put in as a traitor and stephen as the sort of um homes to his his mariati.

Yes, or one of them definitely has. And at the moment, it looks like they would go for Jonathan before they went for Stephen. So actually, that's going to work very nicely because it's not like they're going for Jonathan, he's a faithful, so it must be Stephen. Yeah, he's going, Jonathan's going over the Rike and Back Falls in this particular analogy. I agree. It feels like he's going to. Well, Stephen kept saying, you know, that somebody is working as, you know, a brilliant mind,

a sort of fiendish mind. It's like, oh, get over yourselves. You don't really need mariati against you for this one. I know. Like, the traitors must be so clever. You think, I mean, there's 19 people you've only voted out to. I mean, it's not like the hardest thing in the whole world. If they'd literally done nothing, then statistically you probably would have voted out too

faithful. Like, no one's really putting your strings all that well. And the only things they have done is, you know, Adam getting rid of Paloma, which instantly makes people think, oh, maybe that's the only thing that's made people think it might be Alan. And then Jonathan getting rid of Ruth, which has made everyone think maybe it's Jonathan. So the only two really big moves they have made have drawn suspicions. on themselves.

So it's not like, yeah, they're not like the greatest geniuses of all time, but it's impossible to be at this stage. Sorry, you've just said his name and I can think of nothing else. My immense love for Alan Carr, which I thought couldn't get any bigger,

has discovered an entire new wing with this series. Absolutely fair play to whoever decided he should be a traitor because he's a left-field choice and he is unbelievable. I want to talk about two things with him. I want to talk about him as a

player and as a booking because he is acing it as both. And I think that's, I'll tell you what, it's great when people understand that they are on an entertainment show and that you are singing for your supper. Not only is he, and some of the stuff, how quick he was, you know, when Jonathan came down and someone said, oh, it's like, it's like your flintstone costume. He was like, yabba, dabba don't. And I thought, my God, you're doing that. You're also, he also understands that thing, which I think is, you know, he sings for his supper. He has a sense of occasion. He understands he's on a light entertainment format. Some of them are really vanishing. Even people who in other formats, you've seen on a panel show, you've maybe seen their stand-up, whatever

it is, it's like, yeah, you're nothing here at the moment, and you're not really grabbing hold of it. He is completely dominating it in an entirely authentic way, but he also does understand. I sometimes think of it. When I was watching, I was thinking, this is a little bit like question time, stay with this. Because you've got the audience where you're doing it, you've got the studio audience, and then you've got all the people back home. And something that might get a clap from the studio audience, the people back home might think,

and as we said, it does matter how celebrities behave on this format because their careers are, I don't want to say at risk, because nothing terrible is going to happen, but they can go up as well as down. And something about the way he, see, I mean, he is everything.

He, you know, is it Meredith Brooks? I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, I'm a child, I'm a mother. I'm a saint, I'm a son, and I'm not ashamed. Okay. He is the full throne. And when he absolutely fronts up to Celia as well, and says, well, you put my name on the slate. And that is not his personality type. That's him thinking, this would be a lot of fun if I said this.

Yeah, because he understands. But he's also giving the audience something, which the audience are home, which is, as we talked before, when we were talking in the Q&A episode about, like, try and think of these things as fiction and that, you know, their heroes or anti-heroes are trying to get their goals. What he does is he's showing you a journey. Think of him going to pieces at the start. That feels quite a long way away now. Like he's becoming, you know, it is like Breaking Bad or something like that. You know, you're becoming a kingpin or you're becoming, it's one of those stories. Yeah, if you'd said within three episodes, one of these two men, Jonathan or Alan, will be almost unassailable.

You wouldn't say Alan has absolutely grown into it. He's like an accountant who's accidentally been made the head of a mafia family. And everyone's going, oh, this is, he's not going to be able to handle this. He's just an accountant. He's not going to be able to handle the violence. and within kind of a year he's just killed everybody. Yeah, exactly. It's like a scar face.

It's hilarious. But also like an ordinary person who's thrown into extraordinary events and he's just done it brilliantly. And I just find it incredibly impressive. And I do find that thing of not going to pieces and remembering that you are on an entertainment format. And that's what you've been doing for.

It's a brilliant booking as well as a brilliant player. Jonathan, I felt a little bit for, because he's suddenly put himself in a position where someone's accusing him of lying. Okay, so not only do I have to defend myself as a traitor, I have to defend myself as a television personality now as well, which is a slightly different thing. And as you say, it's actually more valuable to him

than his status as a traitor. Yeah. If he's just a regular punter playing the show, then winning is absolutely everything. Whereas for Jonathan, he would rather be voted out and loved than win. Absolutely. And be hated because the win is being loved.

But what an able partner he has in Cat, who's just, she doesn't put a foot wrong. She's, and she's got that thing, yeah, she's got that thing where she says, you know, maybe because I'm quite young and quite, she knows herself very well. Actually, quite a lot of celebrities don't necessarily know themselves in the same way, and they don't necessarily see how they might come across. And she really knows herself and thinks, oh, I will always be underestimated. And that's great.

So I think. I think we'll get on to who we think is going to be voted off. But it feels like Jonathan's journey will be cut short. It feels, I can't work out how he's going to survive another... It's unsavageable in two or three banishments. Even the medium term, I think he sort of knows that as well. There's a few people who can throw under the bus. And it feels like he will definitely be kicked out before Alan or Kat.

And so we will be in a situation next week, presumably, where Alan and Kat. have to recruit. At that stage, two very strong traitors in Alan and Kat. Let's assume their strength remains for a couple of episodes. Who is it that they can bolster themselves with who could take at least one of them through to the end of the series? Because it's going pretty quickly. I won, I mean, I'm finding her absolutely mesmerizing,

and it is Celia. Yes. Because she, I mean, it's terrifying because there's an, that she's so unpredictable. Yeah. I don't think anyone thinks it's her particularly. I mean, she has been nominated a couple of times. Yeah.

Just as a sidebar, I have to say, the Thursday Murder Club is about not really underestimating all the people. It's just like a, I'm giving the role in the movie. Yeah. She's like a walking marketing campaign for the entire concept of your world. Having known her now for a little while and I love her very much, is she is genuinely entirely unfiltered. Yeah.

In the way that lots of people go, think about me is, I'm unfiltered. And you go, well, are you? She really is. She literally will just say whatever she wants at any given time. And she loves getting a reaction. She loves mischief. She loves trouble. And what a room to be in when you like all of those things.

She also slightly knows she's untouchable for a bit. She understands the status that she has and it would be very, very hard to get rid of her. So she knows she's got free reign just for a little while, just to mix it up. I feel she's too unpredictable to get that third spot when they have to recruit. Agreed. What do you think before we narrow it down then are the, key attributes for that third spot is it just someone you would never suspect or is it someone who I mean there are dark horses in this like someone like lucy Beaumont who again can we always say

there's a stupidity premium she's not stupid at all no but she can she can create the image of being that she can create a vibe of stupidity um and that there are certain people like that I do what do think of the attributes that are best in the recruited? Well, if you're thinking about someone, there are stages of the traitors where if you bring someone on, you need them to do two things. You need them to keep you safe for maybe two banishments. And then you need to throw them under the bus. So you need somebody who can do both of those things. It has a hint of suspicion about them, but also a hint of solidity. But they also normally need to be suspecting you as well, because it's the only way, if you

You can't murder them for one reason or another. It's quite helpful to just say, okay, now you work for us. In some ways, Joe Marla would be an amazing traitor, but I genuinely think, and I'm sure Joe would agree with this, I think he would go to pieces. Yeah, I said, if he was a traitor. I don't, I think he, you can see he has such a moral core that the very act of being a traitor, I think might be too much for him. Do you have to, do you have to recruit Stephen because basically otherwise people will retain

him, and just already psychologically thinking of him as the, you know, to go back to know, I think it's too obvious. I think, I think you just murder Stephen at some stage. I would go for Lucy or Joe Wilkinson, I think. Yes, I think I would probably too. Can we talk about shields? Are they all deferred and sort of gave Stephen a shield? Yeah. What was all this about? I felt like I missed a seven second lacuna of the show and fully misundered. Shields, when Shields first came along, I thought, oh, this is just some pointless silly gimmick that I didn't, you know, it has become a brilliant way of,

and people's behaviour over them. Yeah. They're such a sort of hot potato. People think if you look happy to have one, then you are a traitor. I know. And if you give it up, that means you're a traitor. It's one of the great illogical, illogical leaps of the game. The other one is, if someone writes

your name on the board, whoever that person is, must be a traitor because they've suspected the saintly you. Yeah, exactly. And you know for, you know for a fact that you're a faithful. So therefore, that's one of the great logical fallacies. And it's what Stephen said. There is no data. There is no data. So you try and find data. You try and find patterns. You're just looking for anything. And actually, the only thing there really is, is listening. That's the only thing you can ever do and just listening to tones of voice and stuff like that.

I thought Jonathan had a big tell when he said corroborate, instead of corroborate. And I just thought you were really nervous at that moment. And he said the wrong word. And he said the wrong word. And he He's so obviously, he's sort of so famously kind of loquacious and doesn't make mistakes. Being on that show, I mean, it would be so hard. There's so much going on all the time. And you're aware that you don't want to be accused of anything, but you're also aware you don't want to accuse anyone else of anything, really. I mean, the best thing to do is say nothing at all, but you can't even say nothing at all.

So what can you do? As we said last time, if you're a comedian, actually there's a number of moments where Joe and Adam were able to absolutely deflect to quite difficult questions. Because they could just be funny And it goes away It goes away immediately And that's a very very useful thing to do But it's hard to know what to do

When you know when they're saying To David O'Dashogah when they're saying Yeah, you've been very quiet You think Yeah, he's just been put in a house With Jonathan Ross Claire Boulding Alan Carr

Celia Imrey What do you think he's going to be He's an historian Yeah He's not Larry Grayson You've done very little history Which should be the rejoinder Why don't you wait for there to be like six or seven people

and see if maybe he's got a few things to say for himself. But if you were put in that room, you might also be quite quiet. And if you weren't quiet, people would go, it's a bit weird. We've got Alan Carr and Jonathan Rosson, you're doing all the talking. But this herding thing is interesting because it is, as you say,

you're always interested in how they're different to the civilians. The civilians understand, or whether they understand either way, what happens is, the result is they tend to herd. Everyone says, I came in with one idea tonight and you've swayed me, whoever, Paul, because you're saying this about somebody and then they all heard round

and you do get a few outlying votes and things like that. On Wednesday, I think the first eight votes were for different people and Tamika went out on three votes which, I mean, that's tough but it is that thing of they're not herding and they are willing to back themselves

but we're not hearing a lot of that. But I think they're not hurting for other reasons as well. I think they're being asked to commit and feeling like their commission to some kind of pile on. It slightly reminds me of people always say once a prime minister has ever done a reshuffle, you know, you just become weaker

because you have more enemies on the backbench. Every time you have to say something, it's almost worth it to them to say a different name every time and not actually, which is a form of not committing, rather than being one of the, like those civilians who just come back every day and say, well, I'm sorry, I'm still going to say it. I think it's Jonathan.

I think it's Jonathan night after night. They're not doing that. They're dotting around. which I genuinely think it's a psychological sort of failure to commit for reasons like that. They just think they understand popularity in a different way to the game players in the civilian version. But I was literally just thinking, as you were saying there,

what on earth are we thinking saying Joe Wilkinson or Lucy to be who we'd recruit? Because if it was you or I, you know who we'd recruit? Nick? Yes. Of course. Sorry, what are we talking about? You know what? Because even here is going under the radar.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and yet he's so utterly charming. He's such an amazing game player. When they did the task, when they're having to unlock all the chains, and, you know, they normally edit those, so there's like two seconds left at the end. And because they've got Nick, who understands how all puzzles work,

and then they've got Joe Marla who can make a pulley work really, really, really quickly. They're like five minutes, 17 seconds. I've never seen the task because the way they do all of those tasks is they'll play it through, like, loads of times with researchers. They'll see, like, the longest time it took, the shortest time, took they were like you know they'll go we we need it to take 20 minutes so we needed to take 18 and a half to 19 minutes 45 seconds that's that's what we need and they would have worked at the fastest time anyone ever did it and they go oh actually because that took you 22 minutes so

we just need to make that clue a tiny bit easier and we'll make this pretty thing a tiny bit easier the fact they did it in 15 minutes 30 seconds tells me you're right nobody nobody in any rehearsal had got close you got these two very different outliers yeah yes you're quite right it should be nick and you'll see what because also what you can do then is draw on that brilliant strategic and quizzing and kind of um you know that kind of a brain and then eventually you can throw him under the bus by saying you see nick we all know that nick is actually and what's emerged is that he's of a special form of genius himself because he's been very quiet yeah for a man who will have seen every single angle of every single angle.

He's certainly not letting us inside his brain. Well, he'd be more brilliant conciliary. You know, he's like Gabriel Burn and Miller's Crossing. Yes. And then unfortunately has to end up happily. But yes, that's what they could do. Because, I mean, I think you would just try and draw on him. Because eventually he's going to work it out presumably quicker than everyone else.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But who's going to go in the next episode? So we have David. He's been quiet, isn't he? We have Charlotte. and we have Kate, who was the kind of first suspected person, and everyone seems to have gone cold on suspecting Kate for now.

But who do we think? She had a little drive-by from Alan. I mean, everyone, he is genuinely extraordinary how he's turned into an arch villain. I'm here for every nanosecond of it. I literally couldn't love him more now. It's hysterical. It's brilliant. Brilliant. So we think Charlotte?

Yeah. She's a liability. You just got to get... You just don't know what she's going to do next. She's a liability and you can't... If there's a grenade in the room, you throw the grenade out. Yeah.

The production design is unbelievable. It's... I love that they finally cracked the tasks and they just keep doing the same... The shields worked beautifully and then just making it a sort of folk horror thing every week. Yeah, every single week. And, yeah, like a sort of a dark twisted version of the, like, the tri-wizard egg thing from Harry Potter.

Or anything in a cloak and a Mars in a wood. dragged out of the raindrovers in the woods by people with moss. You were generally thinking, oh, this is like a Norwegian horror movie. Everything is like a sort of grim Scottish midsummer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's so good. The gothicness and also because it lides perfectly with Claudia's kind of persona for the show. Yeah.

And it just all works. And it is, even while it's gothic, it is also hysterically camp, which I love. Who haven't we talked about? We haven't talked about, and he was a very interesting. in case in these two episodes. Mark Bonner, who I like, who I like very much, but he absolutely had that actor thing after he'd accused Tamika and he got it wrong. He absolutely went in on himself and was so self-flagellating to the point that it's going to, that'll get him into trouble. Yeah. Like he did on Kate, who had to then say, I'm a terrible ham. Yeah. But at least for something

because I, you keep, her screen time keeps being, and then we saw the cabin and then we were like, oh, no, No, this is so great. You know, it's one of those things. So I think she is going to have to pull out and do more in order to sort of resist the attention to the group. And when he came down to breakfast, the next day he goes, oh, I barely slept. And as Ingrid said, yeah, you had a massive, like almost a pint of red wine after the bathroom. Of course you didn't sleep, mate. I mean, he had a shield.

So it wasn't that. There is no judgment here, by the way. No, oh, my God. We would have had a bottle. drink so much in that castle there's no judgment at here

the Joe and Joe friendship I like very much oh I love that that's a great double act just so sort of unexpected you'd think that could I mean that could develop

into a useful alliance and almost become something worth splitting up if you were recruiting so I think I have to think about that and Joe Wilkinson is another one like Adon who understands he's in an entertainment show

and we'll do Joe And yet equally has that very, very specific Joe Wilkinson persona, which he somehow makes fit the game, which I find quite interesting, to be able to be yourself. Yeah. It's very, as we said, it's very difficult for Jonathan Ross to be himself because he is someone who, you know, by nature of the day job controls events. And it's just really, whereas Joe Wilkinson is lost in a mad world. So it's easier to adapt that persona to the game. Now, shall we talk about Claire leaving? So we had a couple of questions, actually, from listeners saying,

do you think anyone contractually said, I will come on do celebrity traitors, but I'm not allowed to leave till like episode four or something like that? And definitively not. No way. Couldn't do it. Literally. Not on a million.

Impossible to do. I'm not saying there won't be the odd agent who asked for it, but definitively not. Who's with Avalon? Yeah, exactly. But Claire is the first of the kind of national treasures, if you like. Yeah. And they didn't, they couldn't care less.

They just went, you know what? We're absolutely getting rid of her. That thing of... I find the talking of national treasuredum, treasurehood... Mm, it's interesting. A little... Could border on the distaste for. It's shorthand, though, for alpha, I think.

I know. In this instance, it's shorthand for that. And by the way, I don't think Claire would ever say she's a national treasurer. No, she described as well. So that's my shorthand for... It's the general... It's the talking about... it.

Okay, instead of National Treasure, I will use the word big dog. Yeah, big, yeah. She was the first of the big dogs.

She was too forthright though. Well, I think when you centre in on someone like Jonathan, there is always a blast radius.

You can't be king. Like my granddad said, if you're called to a fight in a pub, make sure you're second through the door. And Claire, I think, was first through the door.

Claire and Ruth, and look what happened to both of those. So I think... Yes, both of them had a similar sort of thing where they said, I'm going to say

exactly what I think. I'm going to be nice to everyone. I'm going to, so like, no, no, no. Okay, you need to spend the day slagging someone off in order that you can build a definitive alliance and then you do it. And then they will herd behind you, although this lot don't hurt so much at the moment.

They don't. I felt bad for Jonathan with the alliance things. Whether he said it or not, he was literally just being driven there, didn't even know. But he just caught it up. Why didn't he just say, yeah, I don't even know if I said that was something.

Well, I think once you say I didn't once, because I think he hadn't occurred to, I think he just, that thing of when you are slightly falsely accused. He was just saying, you're fine listen we're with you it was just being nice to two people who are saying we don't know anyone it's just a random thing he said in the car a random thing he said in the car and he gets brought

up and so he immediately is defensive she therefore I think that you know plot lines plot lines she didn't like him for other reasons and that became something that was used as a sort of retrofitted as a reason just to reiterate this show is so good oh my god it's just a joke how good it is I'm so pleased

and it gets better every time and it is different as a celebrity format and we're just seeing all the different ways and the sort of different branching fallouts of it all I'm already so excited for the second series I mean this one hasn't even finished you know like when you're eating your tea and you can't wait for tomorrow's tea

yeah it's like that you just think it immediately almost anyone you can think of you're like oh my god they would be amazing in celebrity traitors too it's absolutely brilliant it's faultlessly done by studio and by the BBC I couldn't it's great and just like a massive midweek hit

I mean, genuinely enormous hit. Yeah. Like a proper, like, universe-sized hit in the way that we don't have hits like that anymore. Yeah. And it's only going to get bigger as well. And it gives us the opportunity to do this as well. Which I love. It's such fun.

I wish we didn't have it on year round. We just talk about. Oh, no. We just like to do it every week. Yeah, I'd love to do that. Me too. But it's magnificent. I hope you're absolutely loving it.

So we'll come back and do more next week. Oh my God, well, we're definitely going to be back next week. I've got a lot to get out. Thank you so much, and thank you so much for watching or listening, however you do it. And I can't believe we've got to wait a week. It's a lot. Well, it's six days, so that's just... I suppose so.

That's just... Six more sleeps. Yeah, six more sleeps. Okay, we'll see you back here next week. See you next week, folks. Bye. This episode was brought to you by Sky. Skyglass is the new television from Sky,

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