The Rest Is Entertainment - Ed Sheeran: The Fallout

Episode Date: September 21, 2026

Was Ed Sheeran's team right to drop Macklemore for his political comments? Is Nigella the perfect new host for Bake Off? Why is Tom Cruise beginning to look like Tig Notaro? The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Sponsored by Lloyds. Looking for extra value from your spending? You can bank on Lloyds to help your money go further. Search Lloyds Rewards in your app. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Video Editor: Lorcan Moullier and Louis Mealing Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Exec Producer: Ami Bennett & Neil Fearn Filmed at www.westdigitalstudios.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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But one assumes that in LA they didn't know that he was a copular. He stands alone for me. I always think Stedarskaard is an interesting one because lots of his children became very, very famous and he always calls himself a nepo dad because as his children got more and more famous, people started to come to him more for roles. That's a nice way around. So entertainment has some remarkable family machinery, but however useful the surname, it isn't always the only way in. No, Octopus Energy, for example, didn't inherit his place in the energy industry. It's proudly independent. And one way it does things differently is having each customer's account looked after by the same small team of around 10 energy specialists.

They know exactly who you are. Mr. President, my company formed me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering the tsunami. They all heap to blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And digger's going to dig us out.

From the director of Birdman and the revenant. What would happen if I stop doing? You starve. You freeze to death. That's what? With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the earth nanny. Digger, see the trailer online.

Only in the years October 2nd. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osmond. Hello, everyone. Hello, Richard. How are you? Yeah, I'm not bad. How are you?

Not too bad, thank you. Not too bad. I think a little bit sleep deprived. A little bit sleep deprived. But when are you not? It's getting quite extreme now hanging by an actual thread. Looking forward to the part. podcast. Luckily, we've got really low-key subjects to discuss. We're talking about three people

who have had interesting weeks. Are we not? The first person we're talking about is Ed Shearan. We will get on to that. Perfect for someone hanging by a thread to discuss. Exactly. Then we're talking about Nigella. Nijella's bake-off debut is tonight when this podcast goes out. And that is a megacultural event. That is a megacultural event. And we're also talking about Tom Cruise, who's given his first magazine interview in quite some time, and it's as good as you would hope. And a cover, which will also have to get to. It is quite something. Someone else who's had a busy week is Sydney Sweeney, who we're going to be talking about, we had so many questions about her photo shoot. We're talking about that on the Q&A episode this week. I know you're looking forward

to covering that in full. I'm a fan. Shall we move on to Ed Sheareran? We're not really going to cover the political situation because you've got podcasts for that. But we are going to cover this idea of what happens if you're a megastar. Do you have a responsibility to speak out? are you allowed to not speak out and how things have come to a head for Ed Shearhan and where that leaves him, right? Yes. Shall I do a little bit of backstory? You'll be familiar with it by now.

But Ed Shearin is on a tour in the Americas, I think it's both north and south, and supported by various artists. One of whom is Maclemore, who made various kind of pro-Palestinian statements on stage and showed some footage. and some venues after that objected and both promoters or venues have managed to get him removed from the remaining date

the New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft who owns among other things Gillette Stadium in Massachusetts I imagine we'll be talking about him a little bit We'll be talking about him he said he's got to go now then others of the support artists on this tour also withdrew in support

or solidarity or whatever and they're Phineas, Aaron Rowe, Bioga and Lucas Graham. And often some of them have said they're grateful. Some of them said it's about promoters or it's about free speech or it means lots of them because of their own history with colonialism or all sorts of different things. Ed Shearren has said he tried to mediate, but it was venues and promoters. Maclemore said it was actually a painful disagreement. I mean, it's sort of particularly amazing in a way because Ed Shearin is kind of the epitom.

me of the inoffensive. I'm not for me to be detrimental to him. That's okay. But we, you know, it's, we're not dealing with kneecap here. They would have pulled out. Yeah. I suspect. Yeah. I believe that. I'm not allowed to travel currently. I can't, I can't remember the situation. Sorry if that's wrong. But Macklemore said that Ed Shearhan couldn't get past his public facing, I don't take sides. Yeah. So it's a really difficult one because, you know, I have, I have a lot of sympathy for Ed Sheeran's basic principles where he's run his career, which is, you know, I'm not going to ever say anything political. I think you're allowed to do that. I think that's in, in some ways in the culture we live in, it's quite a radical act to say, you know, I'm, I'm

literally not going to join in on any side of this. My job is to bring a load of people to a stadium, get a lot of people to buy music and spread joy and spread happiness. And I think that's okay. I think you're allowed to do that as a human being. I think you're allowed to say, I can only think of one way I can actually make the world better. And it's only normal. 0.0.0.1% better, but that's by making my music and bringing people together. That's a decision you absolutely are allowed to make, and I respect that as a decision. I think you should be allowed to make it, but it became impossible, and we will get to why it just became an inevitability that was something that was going to happen. And it's interesting, really interesting what has happened in Philadelphia on Saturday night, where he went out without a band, because his band have sort of pulled out.

and I actually saw the image before I read the quotes and it was a picture of Ed Shearren sitting cross-legged apparently crying on stage with the guitar in his lap and I did think, okay well I guess the culture now has its pound of flesh, its scout, it's whatever it is. And he said, we'll look at what he said and for someone who has absolutely, you know, struggled to remember, remain a political. It's interesting what he said in the end.

This week, the criticism was about something much more important, and I've had to take and make difficult decisions, and I am making mistakes, and I'm so, so sorry. I don't want to disappoint fans, and I've never wanted to be an activist musician, but this has put me in the middle of an important and passionate argument about freedom of speech and the most complex political issue on the panel. I am deeply worried about the idea that venues pre-approved content performs. This happens in so many places that I perform around the world, but it should never happen in the free world.

And then he has to get more specific. So this is what he said when he had to get more specific. I have tried in my career not to be a political commentator at any kind because I want my music and shows to be about unity, not division, about humanity, not politics. This is a humanitarian, issue and I cannot hide how I feel about it anymore. What happened in Israel and letting know music festival on October 7th was terrific and compounded centuries of

Jewish pain. What is happening in Gaza is catastrophic and unjustifiable and disproportionate. My heart has been broken by the scale of devastation and loss of civilians lives, children's lives. And the systemic injustice was seeing unfolding the thank you cannot be overlooked. I am already speaking to people across the spectrum to work out how to make a contribution that helps victims of these terrible times and listening and learning because I do not know enough. It's interesting.

I mean, he really opened up about what it's felt like and he said he's lost family and friends over it. You know, he normally has a B stage. He has an extended stage like a lot of them do nowadays where they go out into the crowd. They abandoned that for Philadelphia. because he said he didn't know if stuff would be thrown at him. He said he didn't know if you wanted to be an artist at all because it happened so quickly.

I mean, it's sort of fascinating watching someone in the centre of one of these big kind of media firestorms that we see about all sorts of things these days and then sort of just going out there and someone who's absolutely, you know, it's anathema to him to have to engage with things in this way at all. but there was an inevitability to it. And I sort of think of it, as you say, Richard, it became impossible for him not to do something. The modern kind of cultural game theory left him with no choice. He had to move.

You know, inaction was not really something he felt he could do. And there will be a lot of people saying, oh, well, he saved his career with this. And there will be a lot of people saying, oh, he continued to effectively sit on the fence. I don't think he did at all. I think he did something that is completely against what he wants to do and that actually, to be perfectly honest,

doesn't make a difference in the wider political situation. I'm very sorry, I have to cleave to this idea, and I know it's really important to people to think that all of these things make a difference. I don't think they do, and I think perhaps he feels that way, but he still felt he had no choice, but he had to make a move. Now he's in a situation, absolutely, as you say, where he's forced to make a very public decision about something.

And Robert Kraft has said, look, who he's been forced by is quite interesting. That is the really interesting thing. So Robert Kraft has said, look, McNamor can't play on this. And has he spoken to other venue owners? That seems to be slightly vaguer. But, I mean, you'd be shocked if he hadn't. He said, look, he can't open on this. and the Messina touring group part of Live Nation

who look after Ed Shearan have said, oh, listen, we have to Paul McLemore because all these venues are saying they're going to drop out. You think, okay, and Ed Shearin in this, and you know, he issued a statement on Instagram, which was super vanilla, but there was nothing. It was all kind of, you think, yeah, yeah, I sort of see that.

So Ed Shearin has said, look, I've got hundreds of thousands of people come into these gigs, they've all bought tickets. I also have a huge group of people who are employed in this touring party that's important to me. And almost all of the support acts you've left have said, we owe Ed a great deal.

And we have a good close personal relationship. So, you know, there's that. But there is definitively a moment that would have been a meeting. There would have been a single discussion where the Messina Touring Group, don't forget Robert Kraft is a billionaire, the Messina Touring Group are incredibly wealthy. Ed Sheeran is incredibly wealthy. Okay, so everyone here is a billionaire.

So it's how billionaires negotiate with each other. You know, the tour is ongoing, so they've got to make a decision quickly. Absolutely get that. Does Ed Sheeran at any point say, no, I'm sticking by Maclemore, you are going to have to back down Robert Kraft. You are going to have to back down Messenup Tor and Group. No one can yet tell us that that's the case or not. I think we can surmise having not heard that this didn't occur.

That didn't occur. And certainly this has all happened very, very quickly. And perhaps Ed Shearan's thinking, well, look, I have a personal relationship with McLemore. he understands the situation that I'm in. He understands where I come from, which is I've got these, I want people to come to the gigs. I've got these people who are working for me.

So maybe I'll just say to Maclamour, sorry, man, listen, you get it right. And I did say, don't do this on this tour and all that stuff. And he's thinking, great, in a couple of days, we'll have a little chat together and you'll have a drink and we'll just go, sorry, man. It was just a really difficult position for me. I hope you understood.

But Maclemore doesn't take it lying down, neither would I, by the way. if Robert Kraft had just told me that I couldn't, you know, continue on a tour. And the fact that the rest of the support tax, literally every single one of them, including the backing band that comes on during the show, the fact they all dropped out means suddenly this is not something that Ed Shearing can just kind of get over in a couple of days. And that has worked for him his whole career,

that thing of just saying, you know what, I'm just going to let this go. I'm going to let this slide. And this suddenly can't. And how is he judged for that and who is he judged by? Well, it feels like he's being judged by audiences or by the wider social media world, but I will say that I think ultimately what happened here was that a rich owner, Robert Kraft, decided against freedom of speech.

There have been some, I've read some interesting stuff over the weekend that, you know, if you defend freedom of speech, I think that some of the normal suspects who defend freedom of speech have been quite won over this. And actually, the thing that I think is the bit that really does make a difference, because I'm terribly sorry, I'm afraid I don't believe that artists are making a difference on this or indeed any issue in terms of changing the politics. But Ed Sheeran said, I'm deeply worried about the idea that venues should pre-approve content for performers.

This happens in so many places that I perform around the world, but it should never happen in the free world. Now, I am all for that, and it's interesting that many of the kind of reflexive defenders of free speech have been quite quiet on this for various different reasons. I'm sure they've got their reasons. But ultimately, this shouldn't be something that is happening. I completely agree. I mean, you think of the venues that someone like Kanye West has been allowed to play in in the US, despite the fact that he was selling kind of swastika T-shirts at one point in his, I think he now calls it.

that are bipolar meltdown, I'll leave you to decide what you think about that. But it's, you can't have all these different rules. And I, you cannot leave it up to, although, as we've seen, rich owners, economic power can decide an awful lot of things. Personally, I don't think they should. They are within their rights in the same way that we always say, you know, people own, and I'm going to be getting to the platforms, social platforms later, but people who own platforms, sorry, they own it, they'll do what they like. It's not, I, they are. going to do I think it's right and I don't know I don't I don't I think what's interesting to some extent is in this case what has happened with the wider artistic community because they are

almost waiting for these firestorms where they can coalesce in numbers and the people who've come out of sort of big names you know miss Rachel Hannah Imbinder who's in hacks said at cheer and I say this is a ginger I hope you get a really bad sunburn the kind on the back of your entire body where it hurts to lie down or walk or sit. Okay. Ms. Rachel said, Ed Sheeran had an opportunity to show that we won't be bullied

into punishing people for supporting Palestine. Instead, he caved to people who refused to accept what the world knows. Artists don't in general talk about other artists as big as Ed Sheeran like this. Yes.

Occasionally. Certainly someone like Ms. Rachel. No. And I think it's interesting, their sense of sort of absolute moral rectitude. I always am very suspicious of anyone who has a sense of sort of absolute as moral retitude.

And I think that within the artistic community, that I have to say that, although I'm not going to talk about politics, there are also other places in the world where really terrible things are happening. And it's interesting, you know, you look at East DRC or in Sudan, where there's huge ethnic targeting in humanitarian crises and certainly in Congo, this incredible unspeakable sexual violence against children.

And bodies like genocide watch, respective bodies have put lots of these places on lists. Those things, to pick those two examples, Sudan, DRC, are not things that many artists are speaking about now. Very interestingly, MacLamore did speak about Sudan and the DRC on stage in that speech that has started this entire ferroari. But I must say amongst the wider artistic community, there does seem to be a feeling that because they're speaking,

out about the appalling kind of active situation in Gaza that they are conducting themselves faultlessly, whereas I would say they are conducting themselves certainly selectively. And that's not the case in this particular instance with MacLamont. Yes, I'm not sure that they are conducting themselves consistently. And I think it's very difficult that when there is one thing that people want to make this point about, and there are other things. and to find ourselves in this kind of unique cultural moment where there is this kind of one lightning rod thing

that within one community they're talking about a lot. I think it's very, very difficult. And I feel for everyone involved in this and this is not in any way to minimize anybody's suffering, but it's very difficult to sort of say, we are the absolute moral high sparrows and arbiters of this and you have completely failed. I'm really, the level of extreme condemnation of Ed Sheeran is something to behold.

If he thought, right, I am absolutely going to use my fame as a megaphone to talk about the things that I care about and the issues that I care about, would it move the dial in those issues in any way whatsoever. And by the way, Ed Shearer... We talked about this so many times. No, it doesn't. No, but that's a discussion that Ed Shearham would have had with him. Yeah. You know, he's not an idiot. You know, he knows his audience, and it's a huge mainstream audience.

Like Taylor Swift, it's the same thing. They are bright people, and they seem to be nice people, and they seem to be kind people. They, more than us, more than anybody listening to this, more than anyone commenting on it, understand the position they are in, and they understand the impact of what it is that they do. And they understand sometimes the lack of impact of what they do. They understand their career more than anyone else. They understand where they can be useful and where they can not be useful. And if Ed Sheeran has taken the view that it is not useful for him to do that,

you know what? He is allowed to do that in the 21st century. He's allowed to do it. He finds himself now in this situation where he is going to have to come down on one side or another, and it would be fascinating to see. But it won't make any difference. No, it won't make any difference. As we said so many times before, it doesn't make any difference.

and a lot of artists love to think they make a huge amount of difference about political things and I have to say that every single piece of evidence suggests they don't another thing I would also like to say is about the audience one thing we do know about people and we do know about this from all kinds of polling is that particularly over the past decade and all the kind of political tumor on both sides of the Atlantic that actually people wish life was less political and that's that most people wish life that politics wasn't bleeding into all sorts of areas of life

that it has bled into and you can absolutely say this is a huge issue and you know it's interesting and however selfish and however fortunate you may be to be born under great stars and not to have to think about it and to just be able to go to pop music concerts and not be bombed.

I understand. We all understand these things but it's very interesting that people actually wish there was a little bit less put, you know, every piece of polling will tell you that people wish life was less political. Yes, but the people who want it to be political, wanted to be more political. And by the, neither group is wrong.

Right, neither is, you're allowed to have either of those views. You're allowed to think, I wish we talked a little bit less about politics in the, in the public square. And you're also allowed to think this world would be better if we talked more about it. Yes. Neither of those groups of people is wrong. If you think either of those things, it's absolutely fine.

My view is, if you want to listen to people talking about the situation in Gaza or read people talking about the situation in Gaza, there are brilliant people who are writing all day, every day about this. There are great minds who are writing incredibly nuanced things about this. And with all respect to Maclemore, who I'm a big fan of, that he's not one of them. Right, he's not one of them. And I absolutely defend his right to say what he said.

It's absurd that as a venue owner, you would ban someone for just saying that. That seems crazy to me. He would say that he banned him for a history of more. extreme things and you'll leave people to judge that. Well, yeah, I mean, he could have. He could have done that a long time ago. Yes, Robert Kraft.

He certainly could have. Now, talk to me about this thing of that everyone now, after, you know, Ed Chiron has issued his statement, everyone else is issuing their statements. And by the way, again, every statement on every side, I'm like, yeah. Yeah, I absolutely buy that. I agree with that. There's very few statements here from any of the artists on either side that I disagree with. Very, very few, because they're all just speaking there. truth and they'll live in their life in the way they want to and try and spread a message

in the way they want to. I get that. But as well as the statements, there's now this weird escalating charity donation angle to this story, right? MacLamore donated his one million trophy or whatever it was to Palestinian aid. Ed Shearhan has now said, I'm donating two million when Robert Kraft said, Ed Sheeran rang me before he heard about Maccdonor saying he was going to donate two million. That's weird. That's weird. double the amount, that's handy. And I'm going to match that. And that will go to charities in the region, unspecified charities.

In the region. And listen, the more money that gets raised, the better in some ways. But it feels like a kind of arms race of charitable donations. It feels like an enormous mass, I would say. But I do think to bring it out to the sort of wider cultural moment, we are in a very unique and unprecedented. I'll get to why I think it's happened. sort of cultural moment, that we talked about film festivals and the risk of film festivals,

which is kind of a ridiculous thing to even the risk of a film festival. The Venice Jury Press Conference at this year's film festival was cancelled. And they said they could make the timings work. It's like, okay. And then there was a sort of out. And you know where they're canceling it. Because, you know, we already know that studios aren't sending films, not just because of the risk of bad buzz, but also because of the risk of your talent being

out there on stage and being asked about some issue, but most particularly about Israel and Palestine, and saying something that causes a firestorm one way or another, or not saying something which can cause its own firestorm. In the end, they reinstated that jury press conference. But I do think completely that it is so driven by the platforms and by the social media platforms. This is why it is at a pitch, all of these things. And it's not, this is not in any way to downgrade seriousness of what is happening, but many bad things. have happened over the past however many decades. And this is particularly acute at the moment.

Remember, what the platforms want is for you to stay on them as long as possible. And the best way for that to happen is for you to be angry. We know this. There are endless studies about it. Even better is for two sides to be angry with each other. To be arguing. I don't think that people realise how manipulated they are and how in hot to the platform.

they actually are, even in emotive and morally repulsive situations. It's not a coincidence that this is happening now. They want you on the platform. Politics has shifted and changing the world has shifted from organizing, joining institutions and accepting that there are costs to do this, costs of time, cost of labor, costs of all sorts of things. And it has shifted to liking and to signaling and to expressing outrage. And we know this. There is a much lower bar to participation.

Many more people participate in, but we have become very good at saying no. We've become very good at digitally boycotting or tearing down or cancelling. But it's almost as though we have lost the art of building things and building different futures afterwards. I think it's very easy to sort of make people have to pull out of things or tear people down or just kind of create these negative situations. But in terms of actual world-changing stuff, I think it's, you know, we're becoming less and less good at it. And I really feel that strongly. I'll give a slight rejoinder to that, which is as many people are doing, you know, positive activism on the ground and helping out in communities and doing actual work, as many people as ever done are. It's just they are now currently drowned out by everyone who is a sort of weekend activist who's able just to sort of press send on something.

and a lot of the and and and it means that a lot of those people who are doing the hard yards and who are doing the hard work and who do you do come from the heart as well as from the brain are having a harder time doing that so i i think it makes the job of practical activism an awful lot harder yeah my first book i wrote was about celebrity and a huge amount of it was about celebrity activism in the sort of noughties and i remember a feeling it was trying to sort of issue a warning about everything being celebrity led, because once you've got everything being sort of celebrity fronted, these kind of things, it's just a part-time job. It's not even a part-time job, to be perfectly honest.

It's a pastime of posting about these things. We didn't have posting in those days, but we had other sort of ways of doing it. They literally have to put in an envelope first stamp on it. But they had endless humanitarian award ceremonies at which people who give 365 days a year to stuff do not get It's always going to Angelina Jolie or someone, someone for whom, you know, wherever, however their heart's in the right place and they're doing the right, obviously just doesn't do the day-to-day work of this stuff. And by focusing it, and I did think, I just don't think this is helpful. And I think that this is actually, it will put people off and it will warp and damage the very idea of what it really means to change stuff on the ground. And it's become even more, I couldn't have foreseen what social media would be,

where people can be effectively activisming all the time. And yet, what is it really? It's just writing some stuff in the service of a tech lord who, you know, couldn't care less about it either way. I do think it's worth remembering the people who put the work in. Yes. Okay, there are people out there who are trying to make the world a better place. They're really, really awesome, like incredible people in every area in your community.

in the world who are doing, who are your boots on ground, you know, shovels in the soil, people who are genuinely doing the work. And the soon we sort of get back to that being at the heart of a debate, rather than, as you say, someone monetising two groups of people who are never, ever, ever, ever going to agree with each other. The happier will be. That said, sometimes there is a line in the sand. This happens to be one of them, and it's going to be fascinating to see how Ed Sheareran deals with it. But try, lose the noise on that side. There is something real here, but it's not the noise that is absolutely overwhelming us about it. Let's go to a break.

After that, a little change of tone. We're going to start talking about Tom Cruise. Can I call him a pallet cleanse or I don't think so. Well, let's find out. This episode is brought to you by Lloyds. Now, show business loves a club. I love all these sort of unofficial groupings of people. There's two brat packs that I'm a big fan of.

There are two brats. Yeah, there's two brats because there's, the movie brat pack, all of the Judd Nelson and, you know, Rob Lowe and Charlie Sheen and all those guys. Everyone in the Breakfast Club. Yeah. And then there's also the brat pack of those kind of turn of the 90s novelists, Brett Easton Ellis, Jay McAnnelly, Donna Tart. And that's the thing creatively. It's actually very, very useful to hang out with other people who are incredibly talented because you drive each other on to do things.

Because a lot of the British novelists in the 80s, Martin Amos, Julian Barnes, Ian McEwen, they all used to sort of go and have lunch and go to have dinner. and you could just tell you, you know, they would talk about stuff and they would make each other's work much better, and that's the benefit of being in a group, being in a club. It becomes more than the sum of its parts. Clubs really do have benefits like Club Lloyds, an elevated everyday bank account with exclusive benefits, plus a lifestyle perk like cinema tickets. And you get no fees on debit card spending and withdrawals abroad. An exclusive mortgage rate discount, interest on your balance. To join a club worth being in, search Club Lloyds.

You must be a UK resident, aged 18 or over to apply. This account has a £5 month. refunded each month you pay in £2,000 or more. Hey, this is Michael and Hannah from Gollhangers. The Rest is Science. This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. Think of some things that glow. Okay, fireflies, glow sticks, the northern lights. They're very cool. But what if we could replicate that glow inside our bodies and what of doing so could help us save lives? Because Cancer Research UK scientists, they're

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For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research and breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit canterresearchuk.org slash rest is science. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back. Now, before we get right into Tom Cruise, I want to say it's publication week for my book, What a Time to Be Alive, which covers stuff from the past four years in entertainment, politics, sport, culture. it's a real pick and mix it's because it's you know it feels quite emotional because it's going to be my last

collection of Guardian columns and it feels nice that my time there is bookended by a book but I'm actually very pleased the reason I'm saying this is because we are going to put a chapter of the book we're going to share a chapter of the book on the rest of the entertainment feed

on Friday obviously I have pit one with a lot of celebrities and entertainment in it so anyway that's in there on Friday but the book is available to buy this week. And that's that. Now, Tom Cruise, a movie star, has done his first GQ cover in 20 years. He's 64 years of age.

I hope you've seen this thing online. If not, take a moment, just type in Tom Cruise GQ cover. And you will see a man with his shirt flung open and his thumb hooked into his belt. He's going to be furious when he sees that his buttons have popped open. Honestly, his stylist should have spotted that. Yeah, I think it's been described in some quarters as a sexy shoot. He does look quite like Tignotaro now, I always think. You know, he's a comedian.

Oh, I thought, I honestly thought I heard Tina Turner. No, no, he looks like Tina Tuna. I was like, okay. So, and it's interesting, and he's given an interview, and he's in the Alejandro in Eureta film that's coming up, Digger. Yes, which is going to be interesting. I've seen the trailer a number of times now. There's a whole fan conspiracies that it's a musical,

but they're suppressing it. It definitely looks weird enough that it could be. So we'll see how that goes. He's given this interview, I have to say, there's a number of sort of talking points from it. It's amazing. He is so enduringly and obviously weird. When you look at the cover even,

it's amazing that you're the last movie star and that you're kind of, you are still permitted by the culture to kind of be at the center of it and to be sort of universally acknowledged as the last movie star in some ways. when you are, I mean, it's a tribute to the artifice of Hollywood, isn't it? Because he's so completely odd.

Yeah, he's very endearingly weird. Is he? Okay, so he's given an interview. Yeah. And they've actually... I'm looking forward to hearing out what you find it. I think quite often I find things endearing that you find more suspicious. Well, I'll tell you, I'll get to it.

That's my, unfortunately, is my psyche. They've got, and they've got video of some of his answers to the interviewer's questions. The answers, by the way, we'll get onto a shot are amazing. Can you just get on to the answers right now? Yes, of course. he gets asked a series of questions in this. The journalisties interview in Zach Barron does a great job, so you know, you see the questions

as well. I thought the questions are genuinely interesting. He's sort of as aware that Tom Cruise knows how to play the game. And so it comes at things from interesting angles. He tries it's not psychoanalyzing, but he's slightly is, but, you know, the answer that every single one is identical. Yeah.

It doesn't matter if the question is, where does your mum live? What's your favourite colour or what do you think of eyes wide shut? He goes, well, hmm, the thing about me is I'm both a teacher and a student. Yeah, I'm about the magic of movies. I'm about the magic of movies and what I like to do go through the world. I'm interested in people and I want to encourage people to be their very best. There's a question which might as well be are Jaffa cakes, cakes or biscuits to which Tom Cruise goes, I think I'm both a student and a teacher. Yeah. But to everything, it's amazing. I found it absolutely fascinating, but I do think there is a kind of amazing double standard.

It's really interesting. It appeared so soon. I mean, what must it be? Like a couple of months, not even, maybe a month, since his ex-wife, Nicole Kidman's Vogue cover. And I find it absolutely fascinating. That's interesting. Yeah, but the contrast where if you're a man,

you're allowed to sit there and talk about kind of making instructional instructional. By the one of the things he talks about is this six-hour masterclass video. He's created a film about lots of things he's learned about filming, which about lenses in the film. frame and cameras and stuff, which he shows to people he's mentoring, notably Glenn Powell. So at some point, Glenn Powell has sat through a six-hour. Presumably with Tom there, I don't know.

Or knowing that the minute he exits the screenroom, Tom will be standing there. Tom's going. What do you make of it? If I was going, I go, I think it's Tom, I think you are both a student and a teacher. Okay, so let's think about that Nicole Kidman. Oh, so that's the timing. She's got to leave the whole lot out on the floor, because that's what happens to women. You've got to talk about your divorce and your psychiatric.

space and what it was like to be married to Tom Cruise, who's by the way, a husband ago, she's had grown up children with Keith Urban, who she's recently split from. He controls it so totally and he brings everything back to the magic of movies. Like ever, as we said, he is so masterful, again, where he doesn't want to. But I have to say that look at the reality of his life. He has got a child with Katie Holmes, who he was married to, who recently dropped his last name as soon as she possibly could. He has two children with Nicole Kidman who are estranged from her, which has given her enormous pain, and we know this. He has had some very strange lawsuits with both of them, since they're, you know, over the divorces and about access and things like that.

The divorce from both Nicole Kidman and Katie Holmes was obviously horrific for both of them, obviously, and you can see that the way that they've discussed it and that they, that, was traumatic in all kinds of ways, but he never has to answer about any of that. And the people who interview him are either too cowardly or they're too formally restricted by the preconditions of the interview. And he never gets asked any of this stuff. And I just feel like every time you see a woman out there on a cover, she's got to say, I, you know, I died, I was reborn, I was on the floor, you know, whatever it is,

you've got to leave everything out there and you've got to talk about your headspace and you have to be vulnerable or else people will. think you're cold and frosty. And this guy just kind of sails through and we're never going to know. No one ever asks, you know, truly, as I say, what a great industry of artifice. But he is maybe the last movie stop because he's the last person who can protect himself with this shell where he just doesn't say anything. Well, it's interesting that he gets interviewed and he would have chosen the place. He gets interviewed in the old stories facility where they used to paint the sets for old movies. That tells you all you need to know. Yeah. And, you know, he never has to,

account for what has been more, on more than one occasion, one of the oddest sets of domestic situations in Hollywood. He never has to account for the stuff that's behind him and we'll never know. And yet he can still sort of go out there. So to me it feels like this is a moment of great artifice. We know that there must have been so many preconditions. You're right, the questions are clever. But I think as a journalist, you've been told all the things you can't ask. So he's tried, as you say, he's done his best because are you going to have these? interview with Tom Cruise or are you going to not have it. I suppose you take it, but there are so many formal restrictions that in a way a lot of people would say, well, what's the point of doing it

if he won't answer any of this stuff? Because a awful lot of those questions are, in essence, saying this could be an opportunity for you to open up? Yeah. I wonder if you want to tell me the truth about who you are. And he doesn't, he tells us, tells the same story over and over. And listen, perhaps by this stage, he absolutely believes that story. Absolutely, you get it. But yeah, you learn, you must, if you haven't read it, you must read it. You must read it. Even now, we are under exaggerating quite how little he gives away about himself. Every answer is identical. And don't forget, he's been through things in the most famous period of his career,

was divorced twice. He did the whole couch-jumping thing with Oprah and the Scientology video came out. And there were moments then when we saw an unboundaryed version of himself, which freak the public out. And it's like this is now the least... It was soon put away again, was that? Yeah. This is now the least bad version of... that the public will show up for, a kind of obvious weirdo who is almost now, as I say,

you know, I said he looked like Tignaturro. It's almost like he's not male or female. It's like he's just this kind of slightly other being that is just all about the magic of movies. He's like some sort of semi-mythical, Father Christmasy type of figure. And I don't know, he can be like that, but none of his ex-wives can be like that. And if they ever give an interview, they will be expected to give every cough and spirit. And I find it very interesting that he can just sort of show up and say absolutely nothing and it's kind of okay. So Inoritu gets interviewed alongside him as well. I'm not saying he gets enabled Tom Cruise by his industry, but this is Inerutu when Zach Barron says, I'm curious what you see in Tom as an actor and performer. Inerutu says, an actor is a cathedral.

It's a whole temple of possibilities and there's the emotional baggage that I think is owned naturally by somebody as a human being, citation needed. Beyond the skills, beyond the school tradition, talent. When I see the eyes of somebody, an actor or an actress, I can recognize that. I can see the depth through those windows and see how far they go. I know how far that landscape is. Sometimes that is infinite. If you see Tom's eyes, those eyes can get you through fucking hell. I mean, they are landscapes over landscapes, over landscapes. And the understanding he has of that, I can feel that and you can see that. I mean, yeah.

Amazing. I mean, you can drive a motorbike off a cliff. I'll absolutely give him that. And on the screen, he is an extraordinary screen actor. And yet, at all other times, those eyes have got 15 foot of steel door right behind them and you can't see anything. Yes, fascinating though, that in a ratio, I guess the second he looks through the lens, he's like, oh, right, yeah, that's why I heard you. There he is. There he is. I mean, he is, listen, he's a brilliant movie star.

He's a phenomenon. Yeah. But, oh my God, it's such an interesting interview. It's such an interesting interview. Anyway, take a look at that. That's in the current GQ. Yeah. Right, okay.

From Hollywood to poor Hollywood. That's really good. Okay. From Hollywood to Elstree and Borehamwood. Right, yeah. Let's talk about, okay, Bake Off is out, the new Bake Off is out tonight. There's been a very significant personnel change.

Pruleith has bid farewell to the tent. enter one of the great replacements of all time in any arena of showbiz. I think, yeah. Nigella Lawson. I mean, what a booking. We just called this episode, What a Booking. What a Booking? Everything about Nigella.

We love Nigella. Obviously, everybody loves Nigella. She is totally unique, which I love. She was authentic before people used that word about people and we were all just to seem to be authentic. Particularly for that show, there's something that she brings. Her delivery is effectively what I would call straight to meme. I mean, it's just, she's designed, right?

Apart from being brilliant, and it is all real, and she's amazing at cooking. And she's obviously got done particularly, how to be a domestic goddess, was sort of turbocharged her. It was all about cakes before everyone became obsessed with cupcakes and baking and everything like that. But there's just something about her delivery. I cannot imagine, this is going to rival the housewives for the gifts that are going to come out. I mean, the second you see it on screen, Nigeria and Paul Hollywood, it is the energy, it's nothing.

more than divorced couple at their son's wedding. It's like amazing. And you just see them circling each other on the dance floor later in the evening. You're like, okay. It's, it is Mary Berry was brilliant. Yeah. Crew was brilliant. And then, you know, I mean, my God, they've been well served by the female judges on that show.

I think it's an absolute masterstroke. I think bake off, like every single terrestrial show on TV, of course, it's in managed decline, it's still huge. It's a big, big hit, brilliantly made, but it's on terrestrial TV, so it's not going to get bigger and bigger. This, I think, is one of the few opportunities to actually grow a legacy show. So do I. I think it's, that's, it's really unusual. In terms of how important it is to Channel 4, it's obviously one of their temples. But first all, it really gets in the discourse. And this, by the way, this is going to turbocharge it, because she's just made for all the gifts and the memes.

But last year, the opening show, I think, consolidated to something like 7.26 million viewers, which is amazing. And it was one of the 10 most watch shows across everything of the year. But the audience demographic is quite surprising because I think a lot of people who might not watch it but have a view about it might think it's for older people. It's more than 50%, 16 to 34 year olds, which is sort of amazing. And last year it was Channel 4's leading kind of non-sport linear show among that demographic. It's great for streaming because you don't have to watch it. I mean, it is in all things, like absolutely vital to them, especially now Married at First Sight, their kind of biggest thing is in a pickle.

Yeah, and, you know, there's been very spinoffs over the years. Junior Bakeoff, which is such a deeply charming show with Harry Hill. The Bakeloth professionals never quite caught fire. No. You watch incredible things. It never quite kind of entered the consciousness. But this being a continued hit, if you've got three years of Nigella and, you know, people,

and it just lights a fire under the format again. By the way, it doesn't need a fire under it. It's really good. But any show, when it gets for a certain age, there's a thought that, oh, yeah, no, I have seen this before. I've seen this before. And so as a producer you try to reinvent,

the best way to reinvent is to bring in new talent. Usually that new talent is not as good as the old talent. but in the case of Michael Sheen and this, the new talent is better. So I just think it's an absolute masterstroke. I've seen her talk about it, say, I wasn't sure if I should do it. And by the way, I'm absolutely certain that's the case. I bet she had 10 minutes. She said, oh, I didn't think I was worthy of it.

But that's, of course, you always think that on anything for 10 minutes. But after those 10 minutes, you kind of go. I heard they didn't know how it handled it 100%, amazingly, which is kind of difficult. because Prue was ready to go, but having talked to various people, I think that she probably would have done one more year, but Nigella was going to have another thing, and that would have taken her out for two years. So obviously they had this amazing opportunity.

I don't think it was the master clerk, but Prue is an absolute gal, and she'll take it in her stride. They have got this kind of problem, this kind of hook in all of this, which is that their former managing director, Lettie Kavanaugh, has got a big lawsuit against them. She said she was fired. Against Love Productions. Yeah, against Love.

She says she was fired for raising concerns about Skye's handling a bake-off. There's so many different strands to this. It's quite unusual for someone to have such a kind of high-profile lawsuit in which they really kind of go to town on named individuals. Others say that under her quite a lot of senior creatives left the company. Even the co-founder Richard McKero left. He won't discuss it at all for legal reasons. God knows I tried.

but others are more forthcoming. We do explain where Sky comes into this? Yes. Sky own love productions. They are currently in the process of selling it to ITV studios, which is why if you're ever going to have a lawsuit, now's a great time to do it because people say, oh, we just, what's this one outstanding thing? So tactically, it could be a great moment to have your lawsuit

and get your pay out even if you don't deserve one, and that's not for me to decide, let the tribunal decide. But, yeah, I think Sky seemed to have let that situation play out over a period of time, perhaps too long a period of time. So it's unclear how it will resolve. But as I say, they've got that. They're trying to sell at the moment. But that should not detract because that's just a backstage thing and no one really cares about. It's sort of interesting that even when you have these incredible, or maybe when you have these incredible hit shows, sometimes it all blows up.

Oh, my God, yeah. Yeah, it becomes much. Nothing like it. Everyone earned out much quicker than they expected there, and then very different things start to happen behind the scenes. And remember, it's already moved from the BBC to Channel 4 bake-off. It was a thing that was a huge scandal at the time. No, but it was absolutely the right thing to do.

People were furious about it. But the whole point with a show like that is Love Productions made it, Love Productions produced it, Love Productions, you know, made it into a hit. Of course, Melonsu did as well. But as a production company, you're not making any more money, like, on Series 4 or Series 5 of that. Because that's just not how TV works.

I don't think they felt the BBC looked after them properly. And it's not even so much that they didn't look after them. You were not allowed to commercially exploit your IP if you're with the BBC. That's just not the deal. Whereas if you go to Channel 4, which they were legally able to do after a certain number of years, you now own your IP and you can start selling kitchenware and you can start. You know, there's bake-off books and all this kind of stuff. So they were able to do that.

Firstly, they're able to charge an awful lot more for the show. Yeah. And because, you know, advertisers are paying for it rather than license prepayers, but secondly, they're able to exploit all of their IP. So that for me was, people were, they said they're being disloyal to the BBC, all this kind of stuff. No, it's just business. It's business. It is business and a creative business. And people say, oh, they've gone off or run it into the ground, which they haven't.

They've shepherded it beautifully. You know, they've had so many cast changes. And I think, you know, the cast at the moment. But as you say, it is fascinating to see. in a legacy thing, which as you say, everyone just assumes they're all in managed decline, that one sort of, you know, talent booking is, I cannot wait to see how she plays out across the series because I think it will be spellbinding. She is amazing. So, yeah, so many people I know who work on the show will be messaging me saying, Nigella's bought us in some granola

this morning. It is delicious. And so her career is fascinating because, listen, of course, you know, you could accuse her of being a Nepo baby and all of that because her family was sort of in politics and in the media and this, that or the other. From the second she appeared on screen for the first time, the public loved her. From the second she wrote her first book, The Public Loved her. And that's nothing to do with the family she's from or anything like that. It's because I think your point is right, there's an authenticity to her. You know, you can, if Ineratu wants to look in someone's eyes and see landscapes, there's Nigella for you. Because, you know, people sort of understand where she's from, what she's been through, all of those

things and she just has an attitude to herself and she has a manner to herself that appeals to everybody. People, listen, there'll be people listening to this that don't like her, but just so you know, almost everybody else does. She's just one of those people who hit the ground running. First book, a huge hit, first TV show, a huge hit, goes over to America. The Americans immediately love her as well. She's huge in Australia. Oh my God, you go to Australia. They go absolutely crazy for her over there. And, you know, that doesn't come from privilege and it doesn't come from you know, being parachuted into something, it comes from sometimes when someone finds out about a human being,

sees them on screen, reads about them, they immediately go, yep, you I trust, you I like. You're iconic. You are iconic. She is iconic. And now, yeah, now we've got a, on Bake Off. Bon voyage, Nigella on Bake Off. We will be enjoying all your memes.

There'll be about seven of the TV moments of the year, her doing something on that show. I mean, Nigella and Alison Hammond, by the way, is a hell of a double act. And any time you want to send us some granola, Nigeria, we'd love it. We're more likely to get granola from Nigeria than one of those famous coconut cakes from Tom Cruise, right? I don't feel, yeah, no. Especially after what you've just said about him.

I don't want one of your coconut cakes. I, however, still would. Yeah, Rich is open to it. And we're back to sitting on the fence. There we go. We're back where we began. Recommendations, Richard. There's a show on Netflix,

which is almost, as you know, I bow to no one in my love of 24 hours in police custody, one of the all-time great TV shows. There is a new two-part of that on Channel 4, by the way. But on Netflix, there's a show called The Real Unforgotten. So, you know, The Unforgotten is brilliant. Nicola Walker and Sanjeeva and now,

a different cast now. But this is like a cold case unit, and it's looking at a crime from 1981. And firstly, it's brilliant. But secondly, it's all the people from 24 hours in police custody. They see some of the same detectives there. It's out of the same police station and the same major crimes unit. So for me, it was like this is like the Marvel Cinematic Universe,

but for Luton Police Station. But it's really, really good. It's very, very, it's beautifully made. It's a two-parter. And yet, for fans of 24,000 police custody, who always go, oh, I want more 24,000 police custody, but you have to wait for, like, court cases and stuff. this is a great two-parter that feels, I would say, almost identical.

I looked at the end because I assumed, I was going to message John Hay at the garden and say, congratulations. It's interesting how it's the same team, but you're making this for Netflix instead of Channel 4. I was going to say, how did that come about? And then I saw that they didn't make it. It was made by someone else. So that police station, we were watching it. Did they have a hair and make-up news?

We were watching the other night, and a detective turns up, he's always in 24,000 police custody. and we were going like, he was like talking to the crew, just going, and do you want to do this as a two shot? You go, okay, you do that, then I'll do a couple of noddies. And just like they know more about how to make a documentary than the crew. But it's the real, I've forgotten, really enjoyed it. Okay, I would like to recommend two things. I saw Resident Evil, which came out this weekend.

You know, it's directed and kind of co-written by Zach Greger, who did weapons, which I absolutely loved. It's a survival horror. My God, the lead in it, Austin Abrams, has so much to do because it's sort of almost only him. And it's had an absolutely terrific opening. It's like taken 60 million in the US, 108 million globally.

I think it only cost 75. I'm not saying that horror is the genre doing everything right now, even if I basically think I am. But honestly, I've had some of my biggest laughs in horror. I laughed a lot in obsession. There were good jokes in backrooms, but I laughed out loud a few times in this.

It's really good. I really enjoyed it. And the other thing I want to recommend is, even if you don't watch the show, watch the first few minutes of Strictly Come Dancing, which opens with a one-shot dance of such technical brilliance that I actually probably ruined it for my family because I spent the whole time saying,

they're going to have to cut here. There's going to be a fake cut that doesn't look like a cut, but there's going to be a cut. It's brilliant. There is one near the end. But honestly, just watch the first few minutes. of it and just think, my God, what an achievement. That's, you know, that's the BBC, that's Saturday Night Telly. I take my hat off beyond all words. I also want to recommend you have a new

series of bonus podcasts. Come up with a very good friend of mine on. With the amazing Tim Hinks, who I met through you and I absolutely love, and Kate Lawler. And that means we are talking about Big Brother, the story behind Big Brother, the creation, the phenomenon, all of it. And Tim was the creative director at Endemol for many, many years. And a very funny man, he has got a lot of stories. And Kate Lauder's brilliant. Well, they first met him, he was so dry and you were so dry together that I actually didn't realize it was jokes at the start.

I thought you were actually accusing him of a number of things. But anyway, I won't get into that. He's brilliant. And Kate Lawler, Big Brother Legend. So we'll be able to, we're going to get right into it. So that's wrestling.com. If you want to sign up, hopefully you're listening, etc. etc. Q&A episode on Thursday and don't forget, we'll be answering your many, many questions

about Sydney Sweeney. Right, see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday. The great cake struggle between Britain. We assess a Prime Minister. With high confidence it was Russian. Holding the Russians accountable is World War III. They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. Got to ask yourself, do you want to play or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing! We would need to understand the policy context. All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today. And disseminated into an operation order, or Fraggo. A Fraggo that says to kill the president of Russia.

Yes. New from Goldhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off? Agent Tom McDuff, Duffy! An audio drama journey like Noah. Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Devised as a technically rigorous, geopolitical action thriller. We have two-tides-friendly key.

Where Britain plays its strongest hand. He's the best. Against its strongest foe. Bear Hunt. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.