The Rest Is Entertainment - Gregg Wallace. A Recipe For Disaster

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

With the accusations surrounding MasterChef's Gregg Wallace, Richard & Marina look at the accusations and what’s behind the headlines.  Moana 2 looks set to be a huge hit for Pixar, but what can fans expect from the sequel? Two very different TV documentaries are on the way. Game of Throws, explores the world of darts and the colourful characters within the sport, whilst in Meet the Rees-Moggs we go inside the home of former-Conservative MP Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg. Are they the new Kardashians?  Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club for ad free listening and access to bonus episodes: www.therestisentertainment.com Sign up to our newsletter: www.therestisentertainment.com Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Holiday scratch and win tickets available in stores now. Must be 19 plus to play. Scratch and win tickets are not for kids. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osmond. Hello Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? Yes, I'm not bad. Well, I had Norovirus this week, which I'd never had before. I didn't might work because I hadn't had it before. I didn't mind it because sociologically I

found it interesting because I've heard so much about it and suddenly there I was. It's like, you know, watching a film that everyone else has watched. But yeah, so it's fine, listen, I didn't love it. But at least I thought, oh, okay, that's what norovirus is. Coming belatedly to the Star Wars of vomiting, you have decided it's quite good. The rogue one of vomiting. And I had to phone a friend on who wants to be a millionaire while I had norovirus as well, which is a lot of fun. How did you do? I can't tell you. I cannot tell you, I afraid. Okay well pending, pending. Yes exactly. Other things that are pending obviously our Royal Albert Hall show on Wednesday. But also we

packed it so for the stuff it's running way over at the moment I would say. It's currently nine hours long. Don't worry we will get it down to a manageable socially acceptable time of going out in London in the evening. At the moment, like the producer in me is panicking, but the editor in me is looking forward to it. No, it'll be fine, we'll look forward to seeing everybody there. What are we talking about this week? Listen, it won't shock people what we're talking about first. We are talking about Greg Wallace, who is in hot water. Anyway, we'll come to the various allegations against

the MasterChef host and how they're playing out and how he's helping or not helping that. We're going to talk about two documentaries, new documentaries out this week very different I would say. The first is Meet the Reesmogs about Jacob Reesmog and family and the other one is Game of Throws which is about the world of professional darts. So we've got Reesmog versus the darts. I'm also going to talk about how Moana is the queen of all she surveys. Moana too has come out and set box office records. So we'll talk about that and a bit about how Hollywood's finishing the year.

And how about depending on how old your children is, it's the biggest thing in the world and lots of people have never even heard of it. Lots of people have heard little else. So our friend Greg Wallace, he's become the main character of the week. Greg Wallace presents Masterchef in all its many forms, professional celebrities, ordinary contestants, is the subject of numerous complaints of inappropriate behavior, very sexualized comments, jokes, gestures, extremely personal talk, also of a sexual nature, and various people including the broadcaster Kirsty Wark. Some of them went public, Kirsty Walk went public last week there have been

13 complaints there are now many more as I understand it. If I could start with Amaya Culper because a while ago we talked about him because he had that boring day in the life and I stuck up for him because I think being boring is fine and also I did ask around and any show he's ever been on that I've been involved with everyone had nice things to say about him so I was was like, kind of, Oh no, absolutely it's fine. And then you think, God, you must always be so careful. And you know, I did think, Oh, he's just a big personality. And, you know, I hadn't heard stuff, but now listen, I definitively understand.

I have heard stuff. I apologize for that, but let's carry on and work out what's happened and what happens next. Well, let's walk through. Okay. So last week, this story was sort of playing out. There's lots to unpack in this story, so we'll be diving off at different tangents. It actually first started breaking this story in October. That was the first time there were stories about this,

but he wasn't suspended. He has now stepped away according to Banerjee UK, who make MasterChef. He stepped away from filming, but he is still on the screens because there's so many of these shows coming down the slit way that you're constantly facing facing It is like a Masterchef cinematic universe. Yeah Yes, always something and there's one got the Samuel L Jackson of it all I'm afraid is the one in every film is Greg Wallace Not that we're accusing Samuel L Jackson of sexualized behavior. No, we're certainly not anyway, Greg has Dropped a number of videos since this story started coming out and the one that came on Sunday morning I think about 7am? I'm going to call it a PR gaff. Wow, breaking.

Okay, well he said that all the complaints are coming from middle class women of a certain age. Wow. Okay, so he has absolutely successfully guaranteed he will be the main character of next week as well and okay, there's a lot to say about that particular comments we might as well dive in there. Well like yeah firstly women well yes it's largely going to be women because that's who you're making your sexualized comments and sexual behavior to. Middle-aged middle-class yes because they can afford to call you out and a lot of people

junior people can't afford to call you out and if you think that middle-aged middle-class women are snowflakes middle-aged middle-class women who work in television are the least snowflakey people I've ever met in my entire life, because they've grown up in a system where they've had to put up with so much bullshit over the years from so many people. These are the last people. And the reason these things don't come out at the time is by and large, someone like this happens, they just roll their eyes and get on with their job.

But now you just think, well, if you're going to bring it to us, we'll bring it to you as well. And young people don't complain and, you know, for various reasons and, you know, do you think Kirsty Waltham needs to do this? Of course not. She's doing it because of people who don't have a voice and, you know, women, ideally, you'll never be more powerful if you are a woman and you are middle-class and middle-aged, okay? You're at the peak of being strong and not giving any tosses, let's say, because really this is why middle-class, middle-aged, okay. You're at the peak of being strong and not giving any tosses, let's say. Because really this is why middle-class middle-aged women are involved

in all sorts of activism. And I have to say that, you know, these people are trying to, I would have thought, reach back and help the people below them through. And if those right words feel familiar, I think I just stole them off Michelle Obama. Reach back. Yeah. Yeah. Another middle-aged woman. Middle-class woman. And if those words feel familiar, I think I just stole them off Michelle Obama. Oh, did you? Yeah. Yeah. Another middle-aged woman.

Middle-class woman. Anyway, also small side note, going to war with middle-class women of a certain age, you present MasterChef, okay? Who do you think watches you? Right? If you get rid of them, all you've got left is inside the factory. You're not Sky Sports. Your audience is

middle-aged middle-class women okay so there we go. Anyhow I think sort of something that's quite interesting to talk about is the anatomy of scandals and how they often play out in this country in particular in the UK. This first came out in October and it was sort of been bubbling along but clearly nothing has happened there hasn't been any suspension so more people came forward and some people like Kirsty Watt went public which meant that it was harder for Greg Wallace to ride it out and they had to say he's stepping away while we investigate. And also by the way when

people say someone went public it's not one day they think oh this trauma's been so much to me over the years I have to let this out it's someone sees that people are talking about Greg Wallace yeah that some people are defending him and saying oh no I'm sure that's not the case. And you go, well, I have some information that might be useful to the British public here. So when we talk about coming forward, that's all that's happening there is you see a debate in the public domain and you think I've been through this. I know what this is. I can tell you my experience if that helps at all.

So they're not partially that you've got cover because other people are saying it too, as always, you know, if you and also your cover for them, yeah, because yeah, you know, that the first people to go out on a limb do feel isolated. So you just kind of sort of listen, it's all right. It happened to a few of us. Absolutely. And so last week was bruising for him and he has stepped away or whatever euphemism they want to put on it. But the way lots of things play

out in the UK is that you think, okay, if you get to papers and there isn't much in it then to some extent this will evaporate a little bit because you're suspended. However there was lots in the Sunday papers and it's probably the lead story in the Sunday Times and it was a big deal so at that point you're thinking which is that complaints were logged and it's not clear what the BBC did about them so at that, it's not great because it's come back in the Sunday papers, so you know, it's going to go into the next week. What you do not want is your client, if you are the agent, releasing an Instagram video at 7 AM on a Sunday morning, saying anything, actually saying anything, let

alone saying what Greg Wallace did say. And I have to say that this story, I'm obviously my non-ironic and total sympathy is with anyone who's had to have difficult times with him and just relentlessly had to go to work and not necessarily the most important people on the show, the celebrity contestants or whatever it is, but people have to work on the crew. My sympathy is with anyone who he is alleged

to have made these comments to who didn't like it. Having said that. Yeah, here we go, having said that, I like this. Your agent, Greg, Dylan Hearn, I've looked him up, he's a guy called Dylan Hearn at Pangolin. Is Pangolin the one that can roll themselves into a total bore? Yes. You must be in a total bore. I would love to speak to Dylan because I realize it could not be for public consumption, but just for my own personal archives. What a week, what an absolute nightmare having a client that you cannot tell to stop, to stop making everything worse. And he's repeatedly released these

videos culminating in the Sunday, I mean, real season finale of Greg Wallace video. Listen, we're certainly living in a culture where he could ride out what happened because it sounds like by and large, most of the allegations are of verbal, tiresome, sexual banter, almost nonstop tiresome verbal sexual banter. And there'll be people in lots of workplaces up and down the country who will recognise that sort of character and how boring and tiresome it is. There is a world in which in six months time people will let that go and because you know nothing illegal has happened and Greg can come back. The second you come out and say no no I'm being persecuted you do have to take your medicine here. He clearly you know this is a pattern of

behaviour over a very long time and people from different shows and people from different you know levels on those different shows have said the same thing about it. It's clearly a personality quirk of his. It's clearly something that he needs to work through with somebody and he has inflicted that on a production for years and years and years. But you know, just go and get a bit of therapy and come back and do something else. But now this going on Instagram and blaming the people who are complaining, that is sort of beyond the pair and that makes it very, very, very difficult to come back from and rightly so as well. Yeah you should because you get paid a huge amount of money to do this and part of the tax on

that is you know you have certain standards of behavior are expected and if they haven't been met then we can talk about all sorts of reasons why they haven't met or maybe not even enforced. Yes. But what happens when this comes out is that you say, I am sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable. And yeah, lots of people will say that's an own apology, apology. And maybe it is. We're in a culture now where you can say I'm an old fashioned guy. And one of his producers was saying, I keep saying to Greg, you can't keep saying these things. He goes, Oh, yeah, no, I get it. I do get it. I do get it. So

you just come out and say, look, I'm an old fashioned guy. I talk in a certain way. I sort of understand now that I shouldn't have done, I'm really sorry to everyone I hurt, but that, yeah, listen, I get it, I'll move on, I'll try and be different. And you know, that's kind of, we live in a world where we can forgive. For this level of what we're talking about. For this level, exactly that. What we're talking about currently, and I have to say, all of this is alleged, and we don't know what we're talking about, but I think this level of things that we're talking

about, this is something that you potentially could manage. Kirsty Wark said that, you know, one of the things when she spoke to Shine about it, which is a production company, that it was almost some kind of affliction. Yes. Someone else had said that. And I know, I don't think so. What I think is interesting as well, and I haven't seen this touched on, but since this is a sort of behind the scenes entertainment thing, you and I recognise that a lot of these lines that he's being pulled up on, I think are sort of pre-written lines. If you look at lots of those lines, someone's told about the way they handle fish is like a rapist trying for play. You know, there's a clip of Katie Brand and he says

about munching on her tar. I can't even remember the exact lines of it, but actually the mechanics of these shows, as we know, is that there's lots of waiting around and Greg will be in his resting room. This is all speculation, but we know how these type of shows you and I work. I wouldn't even call it speculation. You know, there's no way this stuff is off the cut. It isn't. It's planned.

And you know, someone comes in one of the runners and says, Katie's doing a lemon tart or whatever she's doing. And he'll be sitting there thinking of about five lines that will be good for this. And some of them won't make the cut because a lot of this, and Rod Stewart's saying, you humiliated my wife, but you cut that bit out, didn't you?

So there's obviously lots of stuff that doesn't make the cut. So when you see some of the things that we can't see the clips of, you're thinking crikey. But that is, I think, significant is that lots of these lines are either written for him. I don't know More likely. I think he comes up with them in the waiting around periods. Yes I think they would be they are pretty meditative what we call in the business model zone

Yeah, which is the presenter themselves comes up with them. Yes I do think that and now is interesting about the production company You're talking about the shine there and because the BBC get it in the neck and all this and just say no Why didn't you know and you know can't you keep control over everyone I wonder if it's interesting to talk about how TV is actually made this I think I think there is a problem in the complaints procedure and I think that people keep falling down the same gap time after time after time which is this if you make Masterchef then you work for Shine

which is the production company that makes it, or Banagay as they are now. And they are the people that you deal with. If you're the exec producer, you might deal with the BBC a little bit. The BBC has a commissioning editor who is sort of in overall charge of the show. What's at what the budget is,

is in charge of kind of compliance, things like that. We'll go down and have a set visit every now and again. But by and large, every single thing on that show is done by one entity, and that Banerjee or Shine as well. The production thing, if you are at any level on that show from a runner to an associate producer to hair, makeup, anything, you do not deal with the BBC at any point. There is no point at which you would even talk to someone from the BBC by and large. And if you've got a show like MasterChef that's on series 500, whatever it is, you probably

the BBC won't even come down to the set at any point, because there's a team there who know how to make that show, they make it very well, and you know, so they're trusted. So if you are essentially working on that show and you have a complaint to make, you will make it to the production company. Now, most production companies are very good at reporting those things back up the line, but if you're a production company, often you're working on very small margins. You do not want to bring the BBC unless you absolutely have to,

because it's a hassle for you. And so the natural instinct is to keep everything in house as much as you can. I try and deal with things in your own way and deal with things in house and not pass it up the line. So two things happen there, which is one, the BBC doesn't get to hear about this stuff. And two, often production companies become way too secretive and way too unhelpful to whistleblowers because they don't want the hassle. And if they go, oh, it's just Greg, Greg's always been like this.

Greg being Greg. And you know, culturally, if you've been part of that show for the last 20 years, if you've been his producer for 20 years, you kind of get it. You know what Greg is, you know who he is, you know, probably deep down he's not the worst man in the world. He just has his awful sort of just behavioral stuff that is kind of every now and again comes up. And so there's a bit of you that sweeps that under the carpet. And so I think for the BBC, it's hard because they don't hear this stuff. But I think that there has to be something put in place where a production

company and the BBC have to have some sort of joint committee where any single person of power on any television show, if you're an exec producer, if you're a presenter, if you're a producer, even if you're a commissioning editor, there has to be automatic feedback. Every single series has to be from every level of that production. There has to be automatic feedback on all of these people. Anonymized. Anonymized. Yeah, I agree.

And it has to be read and taken seriously. It has to be discussed between those two companies and it has to be shown to a third party. Again, that's not the BBC are not deliberately closing, you know, putting their head in the sand and production companies, I sort of see where they're coming from. So I think you just have a system in place where somebody else has to have a look at it. And then I know everyone's woke, everyone's a snowflake, but it's important because these are people's careers and you know, you get young people who might be put off what they're doing.

It's just, it's such an easy thing to do. You know, teachers have it, you know, university professors have it. Most people who are listening to this at work, they will have some sort of assessment each year and people will be independent, people will be looking at what it is they do. It's just that because 99% of the time there isn't a problem. You know, TV is such a wonderful place to work. But then the times there are it becomes a really big problem because you do have these power dynamics, you do have these fame dynamics. And so but there's such

a simple way of dealing with it, which is just automatic feedback on just on not just presenters because we all know, exact producers who are difficult beings, we all know people that work for channels hyper channels, you who are difficult human beings. We all know people who work for channels hyperchannels who can be difficult human beings. We all know people who run big production companies who are very difficult human beings. So just feedback on all of those people all the time. And if a pattern develops, there we go. I completely agree with that. I think we're also, I mean, the trouble is, is that we're now in any time that one of these scandals happens on a show,

whether or not the BBC make it, as we've said before, the probability of it becoming a massive story about the BBC approach is one. And that's where we're on that trajectory already about this. This is going to be, people are talking about logging that some people, something was logged and then nothing was dealt with.

I don't know the truth of that. As Mamir, the broadcaster said, she complained in 2017 and said quite explicitly, I don't want people to say nothing, you know, if it happens again, I don't want someone to say, well, we never had any idea about this because you have now because of me. Well, that's an interesting thing. So I think she said that to Kate Phillips at the BBC again is very, very smart. And I listen, he's been suspended for a reason now. Yeah. And one assumes it's not a one off thing. One assumes it is because there have been these

allegations before another one has been made. and therefore the pattern has become too much. I would guess that's the case. I agree with that. I heard an MP this morning on the radio talking about it and I just thought, oh my God, please don't let us have to hear from you lot about any of this. We don't need to hear from any MPs about this, about what's going on at the BBC, what's going on in your palace and I'm afraid you will hear from it and they'll have some sort of select committee nonsense about it all. I would also say that people saying, oh, well,

why does this happen all the time in television? Good and badness is equally distributed in all workplaces. There are power imbalances, yes, in television, but there are power balances in all sorts of places. You hear about it in television because television is a place where if you say

something, something might actually happen. There are lots of people in workplaces up and down this country who are never going to say anything because they know very well that nothing is going to happen. So you hear about it more in television because there actually are procedures and it does get dealt with. You can't go to the papers about your nameless boss just doing inappropriate banter because nobody cares if you just work in, you know, for all the better, a paper merchant in Slough to bring the David Brenton allergy in. But you know, most people have all sorts of things like this in the workplace and nobody cares and they can't do anything about it. You hear about it in television because there have been various scandals and you do

actually hear when people make a fuss and when there are complaints. Nothing really happens in the Palace of Westminster as far as anyone can tell. They didn't even have any form of robust procedure for anything, nothing independent, it's a complete mess. So I don't want to hear from any more MPs about this. Thank you. But I will. Yeah, I bet you will. And this idea also that, oh god, it's a snowflake thing and you can't say anything anymore. That's just definitely not the case because he is absolutely, he can say whatever he wants at all times. The moment someone complains and someone and your line manager says, maybe next time, just

don't do that. Listen, I get it. That's how you are, but it's been taken this way. You're going to go, okay, it's interesting. And then the second time it happens, they go, oh, again, it's just, this is someone different as well, by the way, it's just said this sort of makes them feel slightly uncomfortable, you know, slightly creeped out by it. So just maybe because we're at work.

And so everyone's at work and everyone's working hard, maybe just it. And then the third time you're like, I'm so sorry, it's that third person now and it's exactly the same thing. So what's happened is he's been told time and time again, not to speak in that way to people when he is at work. He is at work, he's under contract,

he's with a load of different people from a load of different backgrounds. We all have this, you have to get along with people. He's been told time and time again, that is why he's in trouble because he constantly does the same thing, constantly has been told off for doing it and has ignored it and even now doesn't seem to recognise that it is an issue. It is alleged. It is alleged. We have to say that all of this is alleged. But this is not a world in which you can't say anything. This is a world in which you cannot keep saying the same thing at work and be

complained about and just keep doing it. At some point you just have to go, Oh, maybe it's me. Yes. I mean, I do think it's quite psychologically interesting when I mean, speaking for him to have a go at middle-aged anybody, you know, that's your, your age, that's your cohort. But when you are a middle-aged man of a certain amount of power in television, I do think it's quite interesting to watch how many scandals every year we have.

And if you yourself have been subject to a few warnings, not to think, huh, I better be really careful now. I think that's psychologically so interesting to me to think, oh, but that this isn't me. We're not talking about people like me because this person is so, you know, often we are talking about much worse things. We're talking about, I don't know, assault or deliberate campaigns of harassment or whatever it is, but to be undergoing warnings allegedly, and to still think I'll just carry on sort of with impunity is quite mad to allow all

these scandals to pass by in the sort of general timeline and think, oh yeah, but that's not me. Well, it's interesting as well. Here's, this is a really, really minor point, but I wonder if it's interesting. Is the BBC 10, 15 years ago had a class problem, really had probably had a class problem. They understood with Brexit and all these things that perhaps they didn't have enough working class representation on screen. They still definitely don't, by the way, and they definitely don't have enough working

class representation behind screens. I know people are trying to do things about it, but that's the case. So by and large, that meant let's have Northern presenters, but Greg Wallace, it was your sort of token cockney. So you think, well, this is good because actually, you know, he does cut across with certain viewers who don't watch the BBC normally. And so he has slightly a way for his personality type, if that makes sense. And his personality type on screen, by the way, is not, you don't hear most of this banter

on screen, it disappears and goes into the edit bin. What see on screen is a large of the life cheeky chappy I wonder if he ever watches his shows back because if he doesn't watch the shows back he's thinking well I do seem to be quite popular and he is popular and I do a lot of this sexual stuff and so people really seem to like it it's possibly doesn't watch it and doesn't know that a good producer protects their presenter if you say something, you know, you get your words wrong or something like that, it gets cut out.

In this case, if they're protecting him by cutting out sexual banter, then he doesn't know that perhaps, for all he knows, all this stuff is going on air and he's thinking, well, people seem to love it. I've been on many shows where you have people who can be hard work. Did you deal with an idea? I've been on many shows where you have people who can be hard work, you know,

many shows where, you know, there's behavioral issues and the first thing you do, you just have to front up and say, this is not acceptable on this show. We fired people before because, because of things. And we've certainly taken people aside before and just said, that's not how you behave on this, but certainly somewhere along the line. This is why I think it's just some sort of independent verification thing and it's not how is my AP doing, how is my runner doing, it's how's my commissioner, how's my exec producer, how's the head of the company, how's the presenter. Done. I agree. In conclusion I think from talking to people I think there's lots more on the bone of the story and we're

gonna hear lots more about it. Shall we go to some adverts? Let's do that. This episode is brought to you by RBC Student Banking. Here is an RBC student offer that turns a feel-good moment into a feel-great moment. Students, get $100 when you open a no monthly fee RBC Advantage Banking account and we'll give another $100 to a charity of your choice. This great perk and more, only at RBC. Visit rbc.com slash get 100, give 100. Conditions apply. Ends January 31st, 2025. Complete offer eligibility criteria by March 31st, 2025. Choose one of five eligible charities,

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Approximately 75% of sexually active Canadians will get HPV in their lifetime. Gardasil 9 helps protect against certain cancers and diseases caused by certain HPV types. It does not treat HPV infections, cancers and diseases and may not protect everyone who gets vaccinated. Side effects and allergic reactions can occur. If you're aged 18 to 45, talk to your healthcare professional or visit GetG9.ca today. Welcome back everybody. Well, now, Richard, we're going to talk about two documentaries, one of which you were the person who said,

why aren't they doing a documentary about professional darts? Well they are. It's called Game of Throws and it's on, yeah, very good, and it's on Sky. And then we're also going to talk about Meet the Reese Mogs, which is on Discovery Plus and is a sort of fly on the wall kind of reality thing about Jacob Reese Mogg and family. Which by the way is not something I suggested they make. No. So... Nor did I actually.

Yeah. Now we've watched both of them and they're both very, very different. Shall we just talk about them a bit and then see what we learn? So the Rees-Mogg documentary first, which is sort of a horrifying prospect. It's interesting, both these documentaries, the dance one and this one, are set against the background of extraordinary events. So the Rees-Mogg one is set as the background of extraordinary events. So the Reece Mogg one is set as the election has been called and you know as the election goes on and he loses his job, the Darts is

set against the World Championship of last year which was the huge one with Luke Humphrey's and Luke Littler. So amazing things are happening for these documentary makers but they've taken them in very different directions. So this Reece Mogg thing, yeah, do we think is it an attempt to sort of turn him into a character, to rehabilitate him, to teach us about British politics? It seems to slightly fall between a number of those stalls. Yeah, I mean, honestly, this is going to be an unpopular thing to say, and I have said it to you, which is that I feel I know all this. I know how people like this are. I spent a lot of my life

trying not to get stuck in this particular world. I just wanted to leave all that and come to London and meet people who wrote books and did comedy and things like that. So I feel I know all this about them. So he lives in a big stately home in Somerset. They've got a big house in London, not entirely clear where the money comes from as I suspect you might know. Six kids, the wife, the mother, staff, all that kind of stuff. So it's a very, very Downton-esque thing, but with Jacob Rees-Mogg at the heart of it. And yet it follows to me completely the sort of tropes of reality television and the family,

weirdly, that it reminded me most of was the Osbournes because you've got the, well, I know, but you've, you know, which is one of the absolute original reality TV families right back in the early 2000s You've got the father from whom the fame essentially flows, but you've got this kind of Matriarch this mother who actually keeps the show on the road and that's Reese Mogg's wife She's an awful lot more impressive than he is massively so and then you have the two sort of in the case of the Osborne's Kelly and Jack but the sort of licensed Sarcastic fools and in the case of Reese Mbournes, Kelly and Jack, but the sort of licensed sarcastic

fools and in the case of Reese Mogg, you've got the two youngest sons, you know, who are charming and provide. Or most of the rest of the kids are off at boarding school. Yes. Yes. It is, I think in a way, we talk a lot on television about stakes and things like that, you know, what's the worst that can happen? And the trouble is, if you know that their financial situation is not even going to be

affected by him losing his job, the children are saying, when they're saying, you know that their financial situation is not even going to be affected by him losing his job, the children are saying when they're saying you know daddy might lose his seat, I've never actually heard of anyone losing their job. I mean one of them says I've never heard of anyone losing their job. It's certainly never happened to anyone in this family. Yeah it's a little bit like you know in Breakfast at Tiffany's, the window of Tiffany's, nothing very bad could happen to you here. So in terms of stakes, what is actually the worst that can happen? So it has to then, in that case, it has to sort of function as a sort of curiosity piece. Like,

here's a man who's got his own chapel and he's got a selection of, you know, fake religious, here's a bit of the, at one point he's like, here's a bit of the crown of thorns. Yes. Okay, maybe. And you know, there's, so there's all those sorts of things. And then, you know, the faithful retainers who have to sort of scrub the words posh twat off one of the election signs in the village. As somebody who writes about politics, of course you get very caught up in writing about it from one side and not from one side, but from the idea that sort of Rhys Mogg is a kind of general national figure of fun, et cetera. That's fine if you're, it's at a distance. It's odd when you see

it close up people's, like I found the sort of Labour guy who ran against him, a real, I didn't want to him at all. There was a sort of extremes of politics, the kind of visceral dislike people have for people you actually, when they're sort of pottering around their constituency think, is all the hatred of all of this stuff overblown? I mean, but you know, wherever people stand on that, so to some extent, perhaps it does sort of go some way to humanizing the business of politics, because the first two episodes are so tied to the election.

Yeah, and do you think this is interesting, that lack of states, because the darts one which we'll get onto, the states could not be higher, because you've got two people playing for this extraordinary thing, you know, one of whom has tried for his whole life, one of whom is becoming this huge phenomenon,uinely, it could not mean more. But yeah, as you say, they try, they kind of go, look, this is the biggest election generation, the Tories are going to be eviscerated, you know, daddy might lose his job. And you just think you have such an enormous house. You have an incredibly enormous house in London, you've got this nanny who was your nanny as well. You don't care if you lose your job, but I'm sure it's fun for you to turn up at the House of Commons and lounge on the things like a cartoon character,

but it's not something you need to do. You know, you're not going to be able to not pay the bills. So as you say, there is zero jeopardy. And in fact, a bit of you thinks, I'd probably be quite happy to be out of parliament because you know, he can get on with you know, being in his hedge fund or whatever. But the one thing I found was fascinating. So as you say, no jeopardy. So you have to build this as sort of, is it a fun cartoon? Even then it's not really, I mean, just sort of a slightly posh look. I've seen the cartoon. Yeah, there's a funny bit where he talks about not actually making an even an imprint on the sheets. Yeah, which because you know how weak Monty burns is in

The Simpsons. I love it. Like if he treads on an ant, then the ants like push backwards and they topple him over. But it's much funnier when the Simpsons do it. I'm not really interested on him not leaving any marks on his sheets. I tell you a programme I would like to watch is some sort of self understanding, some sort of self knowledge, which by the way, maybe he has about, you know, genuinely I would be uber religious if I was born into his family because the luck that man has had, the extraordinary, you would just think, I mean, it can't just be fortune. There must be some sort of divine kind of law behind this. There must be a reason why I've got this enormous house and people eye on my sheets

despite the fact I'm a deeply ordinary, perfectly nice at times human being. You must seek to find a way to justify the life that you have. That I'd be interested in seeing. I always think it's fascinating on House of Games, this is such a sidebar, but we always do a practice round of rhyme time. And we do a thing where we have a picture of Kermit the Frog and a picture of Jacob Rees-Mogg and say, who is this and who is this? And everyone always goes, oh, it's Kermit the Frog and that guy Rees-Mogg. The name recognition is weirdly not there in politics. It feels like he's a huge deal. He's no Kermit. Exactly. So he doesn't even quite have that. It's not,

he doesn't quite seem to have the courage of his convictions. He's not like completely bonkers. You know, he's not completely sort of committed to the conservative cause. You know, just not sure what he is, or who he is other than a very, very, very, very fortunate man, who was very lucky where he's born, very, very lucky to meet the wife he met, I have to say, and to have six healthy, happy kids. You just think I'm not sure what it is I'm looking for here. Absolutely. I'll be interested to watch in terms of upcoming reality families. I'll have a look at Alec Baldwin's doing one.

Is he? Yeah, with the wife, Hilaria, real name Hillary, with their seven children. I'll look at that, but I- Their kids have probably got the same names as the reese mug kids. Very, very probably. Well, I mean, they'll have fake Spanish names. There's some good names, some of the reese mug kids. I'll give them that.

And Selm is a good name. Yes. There's some good names, some of the best smokers, I'll give them that, and Selm is a good name. Yes, as I say, I think it's fatally undone by the lack of stakes and the failure to dive deeper into some of the sort of what it feels like to really have. But perhaps you don't know that you have lack of stakes if you really, you're fortunate enough never to have known it. Whereas the darts, my goodness, I mean... How great is that? First of all, can I say these people do know people who have lost their jobs. Yes. I think there's a baseline,

let me tell you that. Talk about stakes here, that is enormous. Tell us more about the show. Well yeah, we're behind the scenes at the World Championships of last year and you know, so Sky commissioned it and Dorothy Street Productions made it. And you never know when you're following something like that, what's going to happen is you don't know who's going to get through. They start following Luke Littler, for example, three weeks before the championship start. Now, if you know about darts, you sort of knew about Luke literally won a few

sort of development tour titles. He was going to be a big thing, but not this year. He wasn't going to be a big thing, but I think they thought, Oh, that'd be fun. We'll follow him. He's so young. The age thing makes the thing. If he wins his first round, we got our first episode. That's really, really lovely.

And then you've got Luke Humphreys, who was this guy who a few years ago, he was great, he was kind of overweight. He was quite depressed and he absolutely sort of took himself in hand and said, no, you know what, the thing I want to be most in the world is world champion. And I'm going to do everything I can. And, you know, went on a fitness regime, practice regime and that season training montage, not so much Rocky as Rocky road. know, went on a fitness regime, practice regime and that season. Some real training montage. Yes, exactly.

It's real. Not so much Rocky as Rocky Road. Yeah. And that season had been the best player in the world. And so coming into that championship, it was his time essentially, and everyone in darts wanted him to win because he's clearly a good guy as you see from this documentary and suddenly you've got these twin forces going through different halves of the tournament.

This kind of these two juggernauts and it sort of becomes you kind of think oh my god these two are actually gonna play against each other. Yeah it's so compelling. Yeah people who don't know is watching this without knowing the result I think would be equally amazing, even more amazing but if you do know the result it's great. So all the way through they followed various different players. And you will understand it I I should say, because they do a great job of explaining how much things matter, even if you're not quite sure where people have come from and what they've been through and the backstories. And it's all presided over by Barry Hunt,

who is quite a good documentary character, let's be honest. I mean, Barry, you can see him sitting down and go, what exactly do you need me to say and how 11 seconds of me to say it's the working man sport, but actually it's okay, I can do that. And he just absolutely, you can imagine just sort of walking off straight after every single thing he says on this documentary. But yeah, it's a really beautiful thing. And like, you know, when you watch American sports documentaries and the whole culture

of it, you watch like college football, you think surely that can't be a thing. You look at the fanaticism and And I'm imagining an American watching this and seeing the fans of darts, and also seeing the behind the scenes stuff with the players. It feels like a whole different world. I think if I'd never seen darts before, I'd fallen in love with it from watching this. But it is very moving.

Darts, it's easy to kind of look at it and just see these guys throwing darts. But then they go to their homes and they talk about, James Wade, who's on this, he's been very open about his mental health struggles over the years you know just talks about I just sort of burst into tears one time on stage I just didn't want to play anymore and I just I couldn't do it and you know it's such a weird thing that only job is to throw a tiny point at a tiny area a long way away and it's all played in the brain and you know you really really see that play up close and that's why I've always loved watching the dance and seeing the lives

of the players behind and seeing their thoughts I found it very very moving I found it very very exciting. Yeah their families you see was you don't particularly nobody gets upset about daddy's result in Reese Morgue's one nothing whereas you know you watch like Kevin Dutton's mom just like he's great in this you see how much it matters. And I suppose one thing I would say is that knowing that we were going to talk about both, I couldn't help, but I did feel that when I was watching Game of Thrones, you just don't see working class people on television.

I know we talked about that earlier with think of the formats, think of the things that dominate the top 10 shows on TV in any given week. And I'm sorry, but it's all incredibly middle-class. And here are people that you don't basically see on TV. And it really struck me. Obviously in particularly in counterpoint to watching the re-smogs, who I feel like actually I do see a lot of people like you. Yeah, exactly.

Given, given how many more people there are who love darts and there are who live a life like re-smog. It's extraordinary how much more re-smog stuff you see in the world. Then you know I've always loved darts and always loved it for that reason because it represented a Britain that is sort of not represented as much as it might be and when it is represented is usually represented as a problem. I couldn't agree more and I think that it really made me think my god and I went and looked at the top 10 programs of the week and thought where am I seeing someone like this in any of these shows?

And the answer is, I'm just not. I had the immense good fortune of interviewing Luke Humphreys and Luke Littler. I went and did the launch of this, which I never do those things because it was the darts. Of course, I said yes. Did you pay to do it? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it was, you know, to me, I was like hero worshipping. But you know, when I said yes to doing it, I sort of had to watch the episodes through my fingers in case it was you know it to me that I was like hero worshipping But you know when I said yes to doing it

I sort of had to watch the episodes sort of through my fingers in case it was terrible and I was so delighted That it was not so delighted. It was made, you know, there's a thing in a Reese Mogg documentary where one of the kids is going Oh, I try and teach my dad slang There's gonna be a horrible setup scene here where he talks about someone being a waste man or talks about Riz and you see exactly that here where he talks about someone being a waste man or talks about Riz and you see exactly that awful set up scene. Waste man and Riz. Yeah in the darts there is none of that in the darts they just follow people and they go home and they talk honestly about their lives and they're funny when they're naturally funny and they're sad when they're naturally sad and when they're on stage they do you know the incredible sporting feats. Sort of contrivance free I would say. Contrivance free

because it's all there and also you have no idea what's going to happen. You know, that's the beauty of sport. I thought it was great. I would be interested in people who'd know nothing about darts, watched it. I'd be fascinated to know if you liked it. Feels to me like people would. Feels to me like people would go,

oh, I sort of, I see what this is now. I always wonder- And I'll have a look at Christmas. Because the world championships is about to start again. And I see the sky and doing a very football darkness to everyone, which is Christmas is about football and darts, which, you know, sort of, I mean, honestly, darts has become such a big part of my Christmas every year, because it plays up and over the new year as well.

I loved it. I thought, I really thought it was terrific. I really hope they do more of them as well. It's on Sky and you know, it's not following them for a year It's just following them for the weeks of that World Championships and that the 96 players taking part there But I would love for them to do more of it because it is such a perfect Accompaniment to that sport which just keeps growing and growing and a great curtain raiser to what's coming up So Game of Thrones that's on now on all the different sky platforms and meet the Reese Mugs is on Discovery Plus.

So I'd really really recommend the Darts ones. The Reese Mugs one is, listen, it's fascinating to watch in lots of different ways but I really thought the Darts one was above and beyond. Right, let's talk box office, Richard. Yes, movies that aren't dead again. Well, I mean, we'll talk about how healthy movie cinema is. Moana 2 has come out and it had a huge box office. This is the big week, one of the biggest weekends of the year by the way, the Thanksgiving holiday because you get to kind of count the five day box office. They have a long holiday in the US.

And this is the biggest Thanksgiving opening of all time. Yes. Of all time. Got 221 million over the five days. That's a lot. Also alongside that Wicked and Gladiator, Glick-It as they tried to make it, came out and all three of those movies took sort of 422 million in just the US over that five day period.

The sort of money that could buy Reese Mogger House. Yeah, it could absolutely buy him a wing, let's put it that way. So Moana. Tell me about Moana because my kids are in their mid-20s. So listen, I know the movies that they grew up with, which is Toy Story and you know, all those things, all the great Pixar things, but I've missed this whole generation of films, Moana, Encanto, all of this stuff, Frozen, all of that. I mean, God, I've just seen them 587 times. But Moana, how, so how has it become the single biggest movie in Thanksgiving history? It's really interesting.

I thought that, because Frozen was so enormous, but Moana, the first one came out in 2016 when originally Netflix carried Disney things before Disney plus existed and Ted Sarandas, one of the co-CEs of Netflix, always said, nothing rates on my platform like Moana, nothing. Okay. So when it goes back to Disney, it's still by far and away the most watched thing on Disney Plus by far and away. It is hugely popular. Wasn't it the most streamed program in the world in 2023? Yes. And that's a long time. You know, that's seven years after release. What happened during the pandemic and also when the guy who was previously the CEO of Disney, Bob Chapek, was CEO, lots of things were developed for television, just like pushed onto Disney Plus to try and build up Disney Plus as a thing.

And Moana 2 was originally a TV series. Now it was only earlier this year that Bob Iger, who's now come back as CEO, this is how big this movie is. On the sort of earnings call, the shareholders meeting, he said actually we're doing Moana 2, we're not gonna do it for TV anymore, we're putting it in theatres, we're making it a movie. So that's the start of this year? Yeah, that's the start. And that genuinely moves the dial on the share price because everyone knows this thing is enormous and it becomes a big thing. But so they said we're gonna make it, but you would think that repurposing something, because animation, by the way, it takes about a billion

years to do that is technical. And to repurpose something that you've done as a TV series, probably, you know, I would have thought at least 16 episodes into a movie is difficult, but anyway, they have managed it. And even though the critics don't love this at all, I think it's got something like a 65% rotten tomatoes. It doesn't matter because audiences

are going to go and see this. And it's got an A from audiences as well. It's very interesting how this stuff breaks down that, because America, for good or for ill, releases the breakdown of box office in terms of ethnic groups and how they watch them. Now, this had a huge opening weekend with Latinos and Latinos are a really underserved audience. I don't know why. It's like, as we've

talked about before, there is a lot of data about Hollywood, but they often don't want to hear it because some guy's gut means more than the fact that Latinos go to the cinema, they watch lots of things and there isn't enough stuff out there for them. This is 36% Latino viewers, 27% black audience, much lower Caucasian, but it doesn't matter, you know, they have got this huge numbers from it. So Disney is on a run again, which is quite good because they really had some horrors last year. Do you remember that one? They did one about the star that all the princesses have wished along down the years. That was called a wish.

Someone said when they were announcing their upcoming slate, have you ever wondered the story of the star? No, I haven't. Please don't tell me you made a film about it. Oh yes, we have. So that was called a wish. That did really badly.

But what makes these things a huge thing that you cannot avoid? As you say, had you avoided hearing that Moana 2 was coming out? You hadn't, because you were interested in these things a huge thing that you cannot avoid? As you say, had you avoided hearing that Moana 2 was coming out? You hadn't because you were interested in these things. No, I hadn't. Yeah, I knew it was coming out, but I have never seen Moana 1. No, but why would you? Okay, one day you'll have to babysit somebody and watch it. That's for the grandkids. Yeah, that's for the grandkids. But coming at the end of the year, all of these massive movies

coming out, Wicked had an unbelievable opening weekend. This is the time when you would launch all your big fantasy series at this time of year. So you know, Twilight, Harry Potter all launched around this time of year. I think that that's had the biggest ever November opening for a non-sequel. Yes. I think Wicked. In terms of why you're lucky because you've the property as we talked about before is huge for Universal. It's the biggest thing they've ever had. Nevermind all the movies.

So in the era of IP, you're not really going for Cynthia Areva or Ariana Grande, you're going for the IP, so it's got that built in audience. But audiences have absolutely loved it. It's got an A on cinema score. Gladiator, which they've, people tried to make this a sort of Barbenheimer thing, which grew up completely organically last year,

and people said, one day, you know, Saturday I'm going to go and see Barbie and Sunday I'll see Oppenheimer. They tried to make Glickety-Thin, where you're going to see Wicked on Saturday. It didn't take off. No one's doing it. But neither detracted from the other. And Gladiator is that weird thing, which is a very long delayed sequel. Yeah. To a much loved movie.

To a much loved movie. And also a movie that feels like it should have a sequel because Rome went on for a long time, the Colosseum was there for a long time. We feel like there's more stories to be told. Yeah, I've had one story from this place. Yeah, exactly. I want to go back. But it was a big venue. Yeah, it's like, I don't know, after the first Darts documentary, I don't wait 12 years for the next one. So those legacy sequels, or I think the technical term is there things like that actually have worked are things like Top Gun Maverick, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, but Twisters maybe, but they, in some ways these legacy sequels

can be terrible ideas and mostly they fail. So Gladiator 2 has done really well for something that is a legacy sequel, it's done absolutely brilliantly. They put it out at the right time of year. They had enough of that. Right cast and Paul Mescal and Pedro Pascual. For something that is a legacy sequel is done. Absolutely. Brilliant. They put it out at the right time of year Right cast and you know, yeah, I'm a scale and Pedro Pascal She has all Pedro Pascal people have talked about Denzel Washington, which is I think quite interesting It hasn't been some major blow up for those two I mean, you know, obviously Pedro Pascal's got lots of big things, but Paul Mescal is still to me quite an indie star

But it hasn't been this like major blow up for him People are talking about Denzel and we talked about this how many times in the podcast before that the people who actually get people to go and buy tickets are the same stars who are doing it in the 90s and anyway I think that's interesting. The campaigns also to get them sold have been very very interesting. So it's good news essentially I think for the world to be a healthy place, I like cinemas to be healthy, I like Disney to be healthy, I like M&S to be healthy. If those three things-

Man United back fall. If they're, yeah, exactly. If those things are making money, then I'm happy. There's a fun little subplot to the Christmas movie market in America, which is Red One, which we talked about, the Dwayne the Rock Johnson thing, which has not done great business. But there's another Christmas film that might equal Red One.

It was made, Red One was made for $250 million. This movie I'm going to talk about. Without marketing. This movie was made for $10 million. It's called the best Christmas pageant ever, which is about six young kids who, who are the tearaways. You can't do a thing with them. With heart.

Well, it turns out they do because they have to organize a town's Christmas pageant and you know what, they actually, they teach the town the true meaning of Christmas by the end of it. So that is doing really, really good business. Do you know who directed that? Tell me. What did we talk about recently? The story of Jesus Christ, Dallas Jenkins. So the director of The Chosen is the director of the best Christmas pageant ever. And it might outdo Red One in the American Christmas movie this, which would be lovely, wouldn't it?

That would be absolutely lovely. I would say that there is a caveat. Also, look what's coming for the end of the year and what I think will be massive. Mephasa, which is the live action Lion King sort of prequel. But listen, that last movie, the live action Lion King, which by the way, didn't have any kind of purchase on what I would call the discourse, made 1.6 billion, right?

And you've got Sonic 3. So the family genre is in really good health and things like the Wild Robot, which was brilliant. If you haven't seen the Wild Robot, I absolutely love that. That was DreamWorks. I haven't seen it yet. That's terrific. That's an animation.

So the family category is doing really well. Lots of other stuff to do with the cinema is still on live support but this family category you'll notice has given people what they would actually like to see. Sorry to make it sound so complicated but they have served audiences and given them what they would actually like to see so that's perhaps why that one is in the rudest of health and the others are faltering. When I was looking at Moana 2 because I was aware that the original had songs by Lin-Manuel Miranda right and he's he's not on board for this one. So I was looking at who were, and they've got a couple of women in their 20s who've written songs for Abigail Bardo and

Emily Bear. So I was looking to them, and this just goes to occasionally we talk about the different funding sources you can find now in the entertainment industry. And just before they start on this, the last thing they had done, they did an unofficial Bridgerton musical, which everyone loved. That's what really, really, really made their name. And in the end Netflix tried to sue them and I think they settled out of court. So they were the real hot thing. But the thing they did before this was Mexican Pizza, the musical, right, which starred Doja Cat and Dolly Parton.

Wow. Why haven't I seen it? I'll tell you why you haven't seen it. Because it was funded entirely by Taco Bell and it was streamed only on Taco Bell's TikTok and YouTube accounts. And internal branch televisions. How about that? So you've got Dolly and Doja Cat in this thing, which must have cost them a fortune.

It's all about the Mexican pizza, which, you know, Taco Bell sort of turns up occasionally on the menu and sometimes doesn't. And that's the thing they had done before. I am a big fan of Taco Bell, by way and also this is not sponsored content and also I'm doing that for free and also... What are they? They are tacos presumably. Tacos yeah.

But you know in America you can... I'm not a taco fan. What? Yeah I can live without them. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry you're missing out. Yeah okay listen that's okay. The one thing in the Reese Mock documentary is I have a very similar palette to him. I was like oh my god

doesn't really like vegetables he eats very bland food. He's having a cottage pie again. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Ghost of Greggs. Yeah. Anyway that's that's by the by but yes fascinating that they've just had the biggest opening in Thanksgiving history and the previous thing they did was funded by Taco Bell. That's where we're going. That's where we're going as a business. Well on that note, have you any recommendations? Yeah I want to recommend a book. Books are the greatest Christmas presents of all. Now you can't really buy physical versions of almost anything. Books are a great presents. It's called, if you like true crime but properly

well-written and you know put in the context of you know the era and stuff. It's called The Peep Show by Kate Summerscale and it's about the John Christie, 10 Rillington Place murders, which is a great movie about starring Richard Attenborough and it's quite well trodden stuff, but it's written so beautifully and it really makes you feel like you're in the 1950s. Don't read it if you don't like true crime, but if you do like true crime and you like a bit of social history, I really, really loved it. Okay, that's great. I've got one that's particularly relevant to this podcast, Tim Roby Box Office Poison. It's really beautifully written and it takes you through lots of the biggest flops

in Hollywood history. And it's just, it's such a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. So that's Tim Roby Box Office Poison. Thank you, Marina. Right. As always, that was fun. Listen, we prep for the Albert Hall. Thank you Marina. Right. As always that was fun. Listen we prep for the Albert Hall. We go again. We go again and after that we'll be doing a questions and answers thing on Thursday. On Thursday we most certainly will. See you for that. See you then.