The Rest Is Entertainment - Has Morrissey Become Noel Edmonds?

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

Why do bands all end up hating one another? Why don't young men write books any longer? Is the American sitcom doomed? Morrissey is attempting to sell all of his 'business interests' tied to The Smiths, because he is "tired of the disagreeable and vexatious characters" in the band. Richard and Marina dive into the world of legal disputes between band members. 'The Paper' is the new sitcom spin-off from 'The Office US', Marina has watched it and has thoughts on its representation of local newspapers. Reccommendations:Marina - Born With Teeth (Play)Richard - The Dog's House (Channel 4) Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at therestisentertainment.com https://therestisentertainment.supportingcast.fm/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=episode_description&utm_content=link_cta The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah AkudeVideo Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry SwanProducer: Joey McCarthySenior Producer: Neil FearnHead of Content: Tom WhiterExec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina. Hi. And me, Richard, Osmond. Hello, everybody. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm all right. I normally ask what sort of week you've had, but I'm not going to ask you that this time. I'm going to ask you a different question, which is, what sort of week are you about to have listeners? Take a little listen at this. It's pretty low-key. Pretty low-key, Richard.

I, tomorrow, will be boarding a flight for the cursed city of Los Angeles. What could force you to go there, Marina? I can't think. You might say, I'm just going to go and talk to Glenn Powell. Holy moly. I mean, a friend of the podcast doesn't do him justice. I don't think he knows he's a friend of the podcast. And I'm not doing it at that.

He's about to. By the way, I'm doing this for an interview for The Guardian. Don't worry, when it comes out, you will have every cough and spit. but that's what I'm doing this week. By the way, if anyone has any questions, I'm not really legally allowed to do it, but send them into the rest of the entertainment.com, and you never know, Marina might be able to slip one of those in.

I might well do. Can you match it, Richard? Are you doing anything on that scale? What do we do? I have a task, perhaps, this week. We're still waiting. I mean, it really depends that the M&S in Chisick, as you know, is being extended.

And they said it was going to be reopening in September. So is that going to happen this week? I walked past it the other day. It doesn't look like it is. Can they get it over the line? So, listen, again, if you've got any questions for the team behind the MNS extension in Chiswick, restis Entertainment.com, so it's either Glenn Powell or MNS. Could you put it in the subject line in case we muddle them up? Can I just say, though, and listen, I know you'd never admit to this, the only reason you're going is because of the podcast and because of our love for Glenn Powell.

You got asked to interview all sorts of people, and I bet the second this came in your inbox, you thought, oh, okay, this I can do. I haven't done an interview for about 15 years So anyway, I'm very excited to do this for The Guardian And let's just wait and see If it lives up to every single one of my enormous expectations Love it, I'm doing it for The Guardian, sure, sure I am Richard, that's where it's going to appear But of course, we will discuss it further when the time comes

Now, what are we actually discussing in greater detail this week? Morrissey has released a statement Whenever someone releases a statement You think... Yes, he has, he goes, there are so many toys In this pram, anytime somebody releases a statement on their own website, we know that's an item for us. He's released a statement.

We'll talk about what it is and we'll talk about why all bands end up suing each other. They're not the only one suing each other at this rate. There's another band, actually much bigger, but much less newsworthy, who are also suing each other at the moment, which we'll get on to. We are also going to talk about the paper, the new sitcom, which is you can see on Sky and now here or in NBC in the Estates, which is a spinoff of the office. And we're going to talk about what that means. Also, I think a little bit, what things like this get right and wrong about newspapers.

Oh, that's fun, because it's essentially the biggest sitcom launch in, I would say, five years. Oh, yeah, for a lot hangs on it. But yeah, I'd be interested to know if it's accurately reflects a newsroom. I suspect it doesn't. But, you know, I don't imagine that a paper office is like the office. So I enjoyed that. We're also going to talk about Dan Brown's new book is out this week. First one in eight years.

All the big books have started coming out now. All the Christmas books are just going to take. through the runners and riders there and talk you through why they're released when they are and who might do the best. I'm dying for that. There's a lot of muscular male fiction coming. Yes, in an era where we're constantly told that men don't write books anymore, this list would suggest otherwise. For our many, many younger listeners or viewers, Morrissey, he was the least singer in with a Smith. He's from Manchester. He sort of has a reputation as a poet. He's certainly an iconoclast.

He will always write about quite dark issues, very interesting issues. Write about things you wouldn't necessarily normally hear in pop songs had a reputation for being miserable when they came out just because the voice that has a certain timbre to it which suggests a miserableness. But the Smith's Amoris himself had such a hugely devoted fan base. Impossible to sort of overestimate quite how much

the Smiths were loved by people who loved that. How he reached into teenage bedrooms and hearts and just spoke what was inside them. Yeah, and a creature that probably couldn't exist in any other era than the 80s. You know, Joy Division passed it onto the Smiths. but the smith happened to have this genius guitarist Johnny Marr who could write incredible pop songs as well so he had the tortured poet who was a very very interesting imagery the incredibly melodic guitarist

and this band kind of exploded out of nowhere so at that time you know he was a militant vegetarian very happy to speak his mind about everything very happy to go on the record and slag people off and just you know he spoke his mind long before speaking one's mind was a red flag let's talk about bands let's talk about Morrissey shall we has put his business interests in the Smith's up for sale. Yes. He's actually headlined it, a soul for sale. Yeah.

A soul for sale. Morrissey's soul. Okay. These comprise, according to Morrissey, the name the Smith's as created by Morrissey. By the way, these are Morrissey's words, not yours. Yes. Oh, yeah. And every time he say, as created by Morrissey,

Morrissey himself has written that. I've typed that onto his website himself. All Smith's artwork as created by Morrissey. And every time he's doing it, he thinks, is it double R, double S? He probably finds it easier than I do. Yeah, he's got a keyboard shortcard for it now, I think. All Smith's merchandising rights, all Smith's songs lyrically and musically, all synchronisation rights, all Smith's recordings, and all contractual rights for Smith's publishing.

The reason he's doing it, he says, I am burnt out by any and all connections to Marr, Rourke, Joyce, his three erstwhile bandmates. One of whom is deceased, and Rourke is deceased. Yeah, and interestingly, one of whom, White Joyce, is just about to release a book, but entirely coincidental. Yeah. He says, I have had enough of malicious associations. With my entire life, I have paid my rightful dues to these songs and these images. I would now like to live dissociated from those who wish me nothing but ill will and destruction. And this is the only resolution.

The songs are me. They are no one else. It's like this podcast, isn't it? It's all marina. But they bring with them business communications that go to excessive lengths to create as much dread and spite year after year. I must now protect myself, especially my health. Any serious investors should make contact. EVE 7760 at gmail.com

And I read out that email address because if you send something to it which I've done it just bounces back It doesn't appear to work Okay there's a lot to unpack A lot of toys to unpack Or pick off the ground To put back into the prow

The bit that seems to be really getting to him Is that they bring with them business communications I mean the admin of artistry Does make me laugh a lot I mean it's really interesting Actually a lot of people Much further down the tree who's never had anything approaching the success the Smiths have had.

So, you know, obviously you're in a band because you love making music and you love performing and you love all of those things. But just a huge amount is spent getting for me to be, you know, booking venues, dealing with the admin, just dealing with the admin. Have we paid VAT on our German royalties? Yeah. And there's a huge amount of admin. And it reminds me of various things.

It reminds me of things like we've talked about before, that even if you're a really big time actor, a tiny amount of your schedule of the pie chart really, could be you in front of a camera. Actually acting. All of the rest of it, in case of Mark Wahlberg, as we frequently say, is praying, having a lot of showers.

Turning down selfies. It's a huge amount. And actually the thing that you're in it for is just a tiny amount of the day. I think even if you're in just a small band that kind of has a few gigs, people say, oh, it's eight hours a week. They did actually a study of up-and-coming Dutch musicians.

Did they? No, it's really interesting. Okay. Who's getting paid for that? I don't know, but it's quite, funding to do to talk to them and say... Was it... Was it... Was it funded by Dutch musicians' mums? I don't know. I think Dutch musicians' moms,

maybe at that stage you're probably helping them out with the admin, driving them... By the way, great name for a band. Dutch musicians' moms. And they found that quite a large percentage of the week was spent on that. And obviously, most people, as we discussed last week, have other jobs. Morrissey has one job, which is being Morrissey at all times. Yeah. That's a full-time job, though. By the way, that's more That needs 150% of anyone else.

But the admin of it all seems to really get to him. I think what you're hitting up on there is exactly right, which is when you start a band, I mean, I started with the question why do bands all end up suing each other? And most bands form in the sort of teens and 20s, and it's usually quite a random collection of individuals. There's absolutely no reason why it is Mar, Morrissey,

Rawkin, Joyce, it could have been any number. And when you look into the history of all of these bands, you know, there's various people who sort of drifted in and out. So it's quite a random collection of people you're with. And you're with them in the Smith's case, And in the case of this other band, we're going to talk about five years, tops, something like that. And almost all your time is spent writing songs, being fated for those songs, touring those songs, people going absolutely crazy about those songs. Also, some arguing in the pie chart.

Of course, of course. And towards the end, more and more arguing. As you get more and more successful, and the pie gets bigger and bigger, more arguments about who gets what chunk of that pie. When you split up, of course, and when, you know, the phone stops ringing quite so much, your spirit is still exactly the same. Your love for what you do is exactly the same. your love for your art is the same, the feelings that you have and of the fandom remain the same. But there is less and less and less to do. You know, you're not going into the studio every day with your mates. You know, you're doing solo albums or, you know, solo tours that

are slightly smaller. You're doing all those things. And so suddenly, that idea of your legacy starts to rear its head. And if you are the Smith, there's lots of money there as well, and, you know, reunion tours and things like that. But that's when you get to the point of, but these are three random guys I met in my 20s. You know, if you think back listeners to just a random group of people that you used to hang out with in your 20s, and imagine now you've got

100 million to spread out between you and it all comes down to which of you is the most talented. You know, that's a heady brew. It's not like these are the three musketeers and they'll never be split. They're all bands by and large are made up of incredibly disparate individuals. And the adrenaline

of being in a gang when you're in your 20s is so enormous. And the fan fair and all of those things, it's so enormous. But when you were in your 40s and, you know, you've got a, you just bought a home in L.A., and you've got a home in Tuscany, and you've still got a house in Manchester, and you actually need a bit more money, or maybe you were the drummer and you're not getting as much money as the others, that starts to focus the mind into, oh, actually, it was fun, and I do love the art, but there was a lot of money, and I don't appear to have an awful lot of it.

And the singer, he does appear to have an awful lot of it. So Smith, years ago, Mike Joyce and Andy Rourke sued Morrissey and Marr for a bigger share of songwriting duties. And Mike Joyce got a payout. Andy Rourke, who sadly no longer with us, took an £80,000 payoff because I think he was desperate for the money at the time. Mike Joyce held out a bit longer and got a bit more money. But this happens to so many bands. As I say, Mike Joyce has got his book about to come out. It's called The Drums.

And it would be brilliant. Everyone you talked to about Mike Joyce says he's a. just the nicest man in the business, just an absolutely rock-solid guy. Unrelated news? Unrelated news. Unrelated news. Is it also unrelated? Is it also unrelated? Is this current news also unrelated to the fact that Morrissey suggested doing a reunion tour

and Johnny Marr didn't want to do it? He didn't feel the vibe was right, which puts it quite mildly, I think. Johnny Marr, who again, everyone you talk to, because you do sometimes think with this thing, you think, oh, everyone's anti-Morisy, everyone's pro-Mars. But is that true? So I tried to speak to lots of people who've been in their orbit. And Ma comes up with a pretty clean bit of health as well.

People love him. And yeah, he absolutely turned down the tour, which would have been a lot of money because he would have felt compromised by it. The other thing, which relates back to something we have often said, particularly last week, is that the money now comes from touring. And so you have to actually be back in the same place together. I mean, you have to say that spinal tap, the new spinal tap reunion thing, is so in the wheelhouse of

contempo culture because they are all I mean in the old days you say what band that old would have gone out on the road of course they wouldn't but they're like all of them they will all do this unless they literally want to kill each other I mean the money that Oasis are making and very few bands can make that money by the way

and the Smith wouldn't make that money Oasis have a particular place in the heart of our culture and even in America that they're able to do that but the Smith would be making a lot certainly more than Morrissey and Mar have now so Morrissey I think weirdly his story reminds me of when we were talking about Noel Edmonds which is Morrissey's unable to let go

what he was in the 80s and how he was seen in the 80s and he was seen as counterculture he was seen as incredibly intelligent he was seen as you know somehow kicking you know swimming against the tides and doing so in an incredibly artistic way that was that's the that's the legend of Morrissey and that is not how he's seen anymore and he continues to swim against the tide but, you know, he's flirted with the far right and things like that. He might be surfing the tide now.

He is. He's certainly doing. He's certainly doing something. So he recorded an album in 2021, Morrissey. It's called Bonfire of Teenagers. And it's about the Manchester Arena bombing. That's the lead track. It's about the Manchester Arena bombing.

And nobody will release it. So no one will release this album. When he talks about it, you do think there's a touch of the Edmund. about it. He was dropped by his label, BMG, because he said he blamed that split on the labels, new plans for diversity. That's what he said about that. He said he's taken this new album to every major label in London. Now, every major label in London has refued this album, quotes, while also admitting that it is a masterpiece. And listen, I get it. He's called the record the best album of my life. And he says, the madly insane efforts to sign

the album are somehow indications of its power. Otherwise, who would bother to get so overheated about an inconspicuous recluse? So that's what he's saying about this. You can't, he's had it every way in that particular, in just in those three sentences. He has, more unbelievably, on one of the songs, I Am Veronica, the backing vocals were done by Miley Cyrus, because she was a huge Morrissey and Smith's fan. So she did that. She then asked for her vocals to be taken off.

And again, you know, he said, Morrissey said that. retroactive you make vocals off the record? Apparently. I think it'd be mighty sorry as you can. But for that, Morrissey blamed the legacy press. So the legacy press had something to say. But, so listen, we've heard that playbook played many, many, many times before. But the reason he really reminds me of Noel Edmunds is if you listen to the songs from this album, if you listen to a bonfire of teenagers, it's one of the best things he's done in his career.

Genuinely, I mean, wherever it comes from, it is a great song. And anything that's on that album that is publicly available, it's absolute prime. vintage Morrissey. If you don't like Prime Vintage Morrissey, you won't like it. If you do like Prime Vintage Morrissey, this is music that is absolutely up there with anything else that he's ever done. Interesting, intriguing,

agree or disagree. Musically, it's absolutely a Morrissey album. And it is interesting that nobody will release it. I do find that interesting that no one will release it. And I'm aware that he comes across as an old man shouting at clouds, and I'm sure there is

a part of that. But also, he is a guy just going into the studio doing what he's always done and making this stuff and suddenly he's in a world where nobody wants to release it. Well do you think he might be in a different world now because as we've said there has been a sort of cultural sea change or the sort of end of what feels like a sort of cultural decade or direction is Mority now not more likely to get a hearing? Certainly there is a fandom out there for him and if he wanted to it's perfectly possible to you know self-release these things and

there's money in that. But I think what Morrissey wants is to be significant. I think that's what he wants. And because he was significant. And I think that there's a certain type of personality that if they feel they're not being as heard by as many people as they used to, they don't go, oh, that's the way life is. Instead, they shout louder. Because they must not be shouting loud enough because it used to be like everybody listened. And now almost nobody is listening to me. And this is an example of that, this thing that he released, the soul for sale. That is him shouting as loudly as he possibly can. And now he has got a reaction.

And people are going, oh, yeah, Morrissey. Yeah, I remember Morrissey. He is in a very interesting, just that Noel Edmunds thing, because both sort of children of the 80s, both children of a monoculture, you know, the smiths. I can't believe this is the first time I've heard them yoke together. I really can't, Richard. Edmunds and Morrissey. Yeah.

This is my favourite take. Yeah. And I get it. You know what I mean. I love it. They are beasts from a different jungle and now they look around them and go, well I don't understand this I kind of get the kind of primal

yell of the thing but as I say everyone I speak to if you talk to them about Marr or Mike Joyce or the late Andy Rourke have nothing but good things to say about them and there would have been a lot of money for a reunion tour and they would have had their reasons for not doing that tour which we can

imagine one way or another Johnny Marr's influence a million guitarist that's for sure but whether the Smiths have that place in pop culture I don't know but a band that are much much bigger with the police? I hate the police. Wow.

Let's cut that out out of context. No. Would you defund the police? Defund the police. I hate the police. You hate the police? Yeah, I do. I think they're really like emotionally hollow and just, it's very polished.

And I think that, you know, it's not insignificant that the most emotionally deep song, really, is all about power and control. Every breath you take. Yeah, I believe we're going to be talking. about it today. Well, yes, because that's also what the lawsuit is to do with. So Sting takes a large proportion of the royalties for police songs, but you've got Stuart Copeland, who's the drummer, and you've got Andy Summers, who is the guitarist. And they are now suing Sting. Forty-two years after every night you take, they have...

42 years, it seems longer. They have opened up the wound again. Sting sold his back catalogue for 300 million back Sony. There's a lot of money. Andy Summers is older than the others, And Andy Summer said, I did the guitar riff. That's one of the reasons. This is one of the biggest selling songs of all time. I agree with him. I agree with him that the guitar riff.

Because this, this I believe, is now the court of law for such things. Sting wanted to do it on a sort of Hammondogun or something. And they were like, no, we're a guitar band. And without that, without the guitar, I mean, I think it is quite different. He also wanted to do the drums with a drum machine. Honestly, Sting, what does Sting know? It came off synchronistic. do this and they are really in the final you know his god complex by this stage but it's their last

album as a band yeah it's a last album as a band as you say that everybody falls out in the end sooner rather than later so again let's see how the police formed and this is not three people who met at school and you know lifelong friends and all this the police form in the 70s in london just where sort of prog rock was on its way out and punk was on its way in and sting was in like a jazz fusion band called Last Exit. He saw Stuart Copeland playing drums in the prog rock band curved air in Newcastle and gave him his number and they hooked up when he went down to London.

And then they were both asked to join a band by an ex-member of Gong called Strontium-90 and the guitarist in Strontium 90 was Andy Summers. So he thought, well, let's get Andy Summers in. And he, by the way, isn't in his 30s, he's much older than the others. But essentially they're kind of three jazz fusion prog rock musicians, all of whom were quite interested in punk. And funny enough, when they turn up... At least two of him have a complex.

And when they turn up in the public consciousness, it's with that bleached blonde hair, that short bleak blonde hair and sort of punk look. And that is entirely due to a Wrigley's commercial, a chewing gum commercial that Tony Scott was directing. And he needed someone to play a punk band. So they cut their hair short, dyed their hair. And it never aired this advert,

but somewhere there's the three of them with a six-foot pack of Wrigley's chewing gum being carried around. styling by Tony Scott Stining by Tony Scott So that was the police So they are three people From very different places Who got together

And I think genuinely Because Stinger's an unbelievably Great songwriter became the biggest band in the world By 1993 Rolling Stone Is saying this is the biggest band In the world

So it's all well and good being the smiths This is the biggest band Even they did one ill-fated reunion tour In 2007, 2008 And in 2008 They have played together they've got together for nights and various things like that, benefits, no doubt. There is a bit about them that makes you think they haven't fallen out with each other.

I think Sting slightly regretted the reunion tour, he certainly said that he had, but they were the highest earning musicians in the world in 2008, and that was the highest-grossing tour of all time when they reformed and teamed up. And yet he'll still do your oligarch's wedding for a million-dollar sting, just in case yet to answer the question how much money is enough. Well, I guess we'll find out in the High Court fairly soon. Yeah, Andy Summers and Stuart Copeland are after this money. Now, Stuart Copeland is someone you would not want to be sued by.

This is why I would never say I hate the police. You know who his dad is? No, tell me. You don't know who Stuart Copeland's dad is? Wow. Okay, you're about to regret saying you hate the police. His dad is Miles Copeland, who was a very, very, very senior member of the CIA. He was one of America's top spies. I do remember reading this. Yeah.

Anything about, you know, Philby and the Cambridge Spice and all that. Myles Copeland is always somewhere in the background, in the Middle East, in Lebanon, but also his mum was a spy, a Scottish woman. She was also a spy. So he comes from a family of spies, Stuart Copeland, and is a tough nut, that's for sure. So he's taking Sting to court. That's what if I was Sting, I'd just pay up immediately. He's got his brother.

I'm so glad you're not Sting. Yeah. We're doing this podcast. Let me put it that way. His brother, who is another Miles Copeland, managed the police. Went on to Manish Sting for many years as well. So they're really, you know, this is a band. that there shouldn't be all that much acrimony.

But they found him so controlling that it was beyond. Well, he said, again, you team up with people in your 20s. You're all musicians, and you all have different musicianships. But if you're a creative and you're in a room with three people, all of whom want to be doing their own thing, and it isn't the thing that you want to do, there comes a point where you go, I just have to be me.

I have to go and do what it is that I want to do. So actually, if you are controlling, then the only thing to do is become sting. you know and leave the band which which is which which which which he certainly has become sting hasn't he but yeah it's all really about every breath you take almost all of it is about which it's interesting that it almost telescopes onto one song and which is one of the very few you know we talked about touring being the only place to make money every breath you take is one of the few songs you can still make money out of yeah because you know it's one of the sort of ten biggest radio played songs

in the history of the world and and of course the but with the sample in um you know the the the the P. Diddy song as well. It was in, when Phyllis gets married in the US office, it's played at her wedding by Kevin's band, which is called Scrantonicity. Oh, yeah. So they're in the High Court at the moment. That's only today's first mention of Dundermifflin, by the way. Stuart Copeland's other brother, Andy Copeland, was also worked in the music business.

But I think might be the only person in history. This is a sidebar. This is the ultimate sidebar. It might be the only person in music history ever to have dated. both Marianne Faithwell and Courtney Cox. Oh. That's an intergenerational. That's a Van Diagram.

Okay. Isn't it just? Yeah. So Morrissey is clearly trying to divert attention from this Mike Joyce book, which will be brilliant to the drums. I mean, even if it doesn't settle scores, which I don't think it will, knowing how mild-mannered he is,

but I think it will be an incredibly interesting read. I think so. The police are in the High Court as well, but so many bands end up in court. court because when they are young, they have the energy and the adrenaline, that they're with people who, you know, in an ordinary bit of life, they'd move offices and they wouldn't be friends within 10 years time, but they are, they are yoked together forever creatively and they have people who talk to them about that other person forever creatively. Meanwhile, there is a huge pot of money somewhere, which could be somehow sliced up between all of them. There'll always be someone coming along and saying, you know, they got a bit too much there. You know they got a little bit too much. And so I think that's why all bands end up suing each other. If you don't sue your manager it's much better to have it siphoned away into suing the manager and you know like the rolling stones have just got that litany of managers who ripped them off about 65p but you know there's certain there's certain people in bands who will always be more of the record people keeping persuasion

and jaggers definitely like that and mccartney when people say oh he sued the beetles and he was trying to get rid of anne klein exactly who is the manager and that you know that that all seemed to end well for everyone journey that don't stop believing band they they um they went to court because one of them wouldn't let the other one use the banned credit card. All the notes have been in, and there's only two of them, and they've been in court cases forever, you know, and again, because in our popular imagination, those two are like best friends and, yeah, but they're just two guys who met each other, and now, you know, they've got half a billion pounds to share out between them, and so what else are you going to do?

No one really wants to go back in the studio, so you might as well go into the courtroom. It made me think I was fortunate, I went to go see Coldplay, and I want to write a a pamphlet called in defence of cold play, because I think they're much mind. I think your pamphleteering is, oh, you're just coming into them. Well, Chris Martin at the end just said, well done for tolerating two hours of cold play. I think it's a real achievement. Did he? And that's him at Wembley, you think.

But again, you talk to people about cold play and nobody has a bad word to say about them. They say everyone who works for them has worked with them forever. They pay their crew properly. There have been charities that have been in trouble. that have been bailed out by Coldplay and told, do not say a word about this. Everyone, you know, you go see, I mean, there's an awful lot of we all love each other

and all this at the gig. My favourite line of We Solve Murders is actually quite negative about Coldplay. Which I feel bad about. Which made me laugh so much when I read it. Yeah, there's a gangster in St Lucia who's wearing a Cold Play t-shirt and when someone's asked about shooting him,

he said, well, the Cold Play T-T-shirt made it easier. So Chris Martin, if you're listening, that was, I just, it was, listen, You know, it's a useful joke. And it's all money. But, yeah, that's a band who I think have been equitable about where the money goes for a very long time and seem to actually like each other and look after each other. But it's very, very, very rare that you see that.

So what's this space for Morrissey and the police developments? Right. Well, after the break, we're going to talk about some thrusting quite old guys who've got some very, very big books out in the moment of Christmas. And we're going to talk about the future of sitcom. This episode is brought to you by Sky, home of Atomic, the new Sky original series. Max, a free-spirited drug smuggler, is forced into an unlikely partnership with JJ, an enigmatic fugitive, seemingly allergic to eye contact. They're involuntarily trafficking, life-threatening uranium.

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professional for SLR Stellist lenses at your child's next visit. Welcome back everybody, Marina. The paper has just come out. It is a semi-spin-off of the office, which means everyone's got incredibly excited about it. Greg Daniels, who's the guy who adapted the office for American TV, amongst a very, very big team of people. He's behind this as well. There are, well, certainly there's one. Along with Michael Coleman, who's behind Nathan for you, one of the co-creators of Nathan for you.

It has one of the stars of the office in it. There are other slight connections, which we won't say if people have not seen it yet. But because this is seen as the first real spinoff from the office, there's been a huge bet on this show to be the thing that really really, vitalises sitcom in the States. Yeah, it's made by NBC, as the office was, obviously, and you can see it here on Sky or now. And it's set in a...

We can do the talk about the premise of it, because it came out last week. It came out on Friday, I think, in the UK. And it's set in Toledo, Ohio, and it's set in the offices of the Toledo Truth Teller. Now... Which is a newspaper. Which is a newspaper.

And they do call newspapers, things like that in America. There's like the Cleveland Plain Dealer and stuff like that, isn't it? They've got some great names. Anyway, this newspaper is owned by Enervate, a conglomerate that previously bought Dundamifflin, but they have other types of paper. They obviously have that, and they also make loo paper. That's their big, that's their much bigger seller. And it's got great, it's got a very good cast.

It's got Donald Gleeson, Sabrina and Pachetori, who you might remember as the receptionist in White Lotus. Well, the managers, sorry, the hotel head manager in White Lotus, the season two. It's got our own Tim Key in it. Scott Benasoleta who's brilliant in black ops If people are watching Black Ops So there's a big British connection to this as well Which is why I think is a particularly exciting one for us

It's interesting It definitely says a lot about newspapers But it also says a lot about comedy It is so hard to get new comedies off the ground now I mean it's that You know that in many ways What they've tried to do As every single person does

With film with anything now is to do things off existing IP, to say, to sort of, it's in the office extended universe. It's the Dundamifflin universe. The Dund, yeah, yeah, and it almost feels now that it's so hard to get a new comedy off the ground. Well, the biggest new sketch show in Britain is the Mitchell and Webb one on Channel 4. And by the way, I'm delighted they're back, but that's the, you know, how else are you getting anything off the ground on terrestrial television if people don't know it already? Yes. Greg Daniels is sort of interested in these institutional stories in lots of ways.

And obviously they had the office, but Parks and Recreation, which was sort of about government and big and small government. That's the other thing I noticed because I was interested slightly in sort of, I remember what it was like when I first saw the office. And I remember what it was like when I first saw the US office, which by the way, a lot of people were kind of snarky about at the start and didn't think it was good as R1. It became completely its own thing. And it is absolutely amazing. and it's a huge part of the fabric. I always say to people, if you want to watch the US office start at the first episodes of season two. Yeah.

Same with Brooklyn 9-9, funnily enough. If you start with episode one, season two, you will never see a bad episode. Yes. There are a lot of laugh lines in those first episodes of those shows. And I think it says something about what has slightly happened to comedy in that a lot of comedy now is what I would call comedy drama. And although there are obvious laugh lines in this, it's, even though, and it's come from the same team and they've got some of the same things

where some of the performers are also in the writer's room in the same way in the original office, B.J. Novak, Mindy Kaling, those sort of people were in there. I actually think Toby from HR's in the writer's room with this one. Oh, is he? Yeah. Yeah. I also, it's funny when he's literally just a writer and whenever he's in the background of any scene, he's a very good actor though. Yeah. Yeah. It's, anyway,

so I found it sort of interesting. The prize of a big hit sitcom is so enormous now. If you look at any of the streaming data, so just the shows that are making money forever you know the offices up there parks and wrecks family guide just these things that are now going to be watched in perpetuity

forever and ever and ever and ever and if you can be one of the few people who can sneak another new one under the wire so that in 10 15 years time you are watched forever and ever and ever that's the real prize here that's what they want because they green on the day before the series dropped

they green lit it for a season two and they obviously want to kind of prove that that old style I suppose network comedy like by the way they hadn't immediately decided to do two series they're going do do you know what just the day before i'm not sure i'm absolutely not sure do you know what maybe we should do it look you know what it's the day before why don't we just wait one day and see what people say no do you know what i'm so confident but well you could have done that six months ago

you've had the tapes for ages no i i've really been thinking about it and actually well i tell you what either just go one day no i'm not going to wait one day i'm i'm recommissioning so is in terms of like how it actually reflects a newspaper office I would, I mean, there's a lot of things set in newspaper offices, and newspaper offices used to be places of significant numbers of staff and glamour. And, you know, you look at it like sort of in the absolute haydye. If you walk through the office of one of the big tabloids, what's the atmosphere like? Oh my God.

I remember that my first day when I went to the sun, but I was like going from a temping agency to work on the showbiz desk. And I got to the door and I didn't realize you, obviously I didn't have like a security pass running because I was just a temp and they had this massive sign above it that said walk tall you are entering sun country and then this guy said to me can't you get in don't worry lucky me lucky you you met me and I was like I wonder who that is anyway that was the editor Stuart Higgins uh anyhow Stuart Harkin Higgins the human spund as Calvin McKenzie used to call him anyway and it was yeah there's a sense of like total we're the best in the business we do everything right

It was really cultish, I thought, but, you know, what can you say? But a machine that was making an awful lot of money and had a lot of eyeballs on it? Yes, but I think it was tipping over then, and they were worried about the mail coming up behind them at the time, and obviously they were eventually overtaken by the mail. So that was all sort of interesting. But it's still the place to be in terms of if you want advertising revenue. It was still, they were still the masters of the universe at that point. Yes, yes, they were.

But this is a sort of different thing this show, because it's set in local news. And that idea of local news, which has been, it is so important and has been so completely hollowed out. And it couldn't be like a more important thing. And we sort of know it, but we don't do anything about it. And there are all sorts of trying initiatives to try and do something about it. That era of like spinning newspapers in movies where it meant like, oh, this is the most important thing. Yes, there used to be a sitcom trope, which is a spinning newspaper. Now there's a sitcom trope, which is 14 seconds after someone says something.

People come in and going, oh, my God, you're trending on Twitter. Yeah. So that was quick. Yeah. I mean, it's usually updated once an hour, I don't know. It's usually still whoever, you know, Alexander Ezek, but the thing you just said is now trending? It's, yes, it's interesting.

I do think that this decay has been having a lot longer than we. I remember I had a great friend who eventually came to The Guardian, who was older than me, who was a guy called Albert Scardino. Now, he and his wife, Marjorie Scardino, had a little local newspaper. This is what this sort of slightly reminded me of. They had a little local newspaper in Georgia called the Georgia Gazette, and I think it never sold more than 4,000 copies.

I remember him saying we had a story once about the mayor and we thought, oh, it's a bit on his private life. Maybe this isn't quite right. Don't worry, if he's made this mistake, he'll make another. So they left it. And then, of course, anyway, eventually they win a Pulitzer for exposing local corruption, blah, blah. Marjorie Scardina goes on. She becomes the only woman running a Futsi 100 company. But even that had to shart.

That shot in like 84 because they just, you know, you can't get enough eyeballs. And it's very, very difficult in this world. I think it is a good place for a sitcom, but I'm not sure it's funny. People don't seem to care about journalism in that way, in local journalism, even though they know they should. That journalists are not sympathetic figures. Yeah, I know. I wonder how that happened. Oh, that's so odd.

I mean, journalists are played a lot, and there's something coming up, and the hack, which is coming up, which is the same team as Mr. Bates versus the post office, and David Tennant's going to be Nick Davis, the Guardian journalist who exposed phone hacking. That's written by Jack Thorne. I mean, that's going to be big and splashy. By the way, even more, listen, I'm very excited. David Tennant is in it I'm more excited that the person playing

Rupert Murdoch is Steve Pemberton from Inside Number 9 come on and I've just seen the pictures of him and obviously they've aged him up quite a lot but he looks amazing it's an interesting place to set a show but it's really interesting to try and get a mega kind of

network comedy off the ground nowadays and I will have to watch to see how that happens because they've put so much into this the office is the sort of show that people watch in their delivery rooms and watch around the, you know, right? We're re-watching the whole thing at the moment. It's so good.

And Oscar from the office is in this, is in this. There is one little, who Ingrid wants to do an escape room with in L.A. She didn't. He's lovely, apparently. And good at escape rooms. Oh, this is great to know. Yeah. But I think if you're a fan of the American office at all, definitely give this a watch.

And I say it's so lovely to have that British connection in there as well. So we all wish it incredibly. I'm listening. There's people out there who make billions out of it. It does well. But we'll all do well out of it. if there's a great new sitcom on the block. Absolutely.

Books, Richard. Now, we're moving into a very busy swashbuckling season, correct? Yes, more than usual, in fact. So this is roughly the time when the big Christmas books come out because you get your first Russia sales in September, and then as Christmas gets nearer, you sell more and more. So the big beasts all come out in September. Including you?

Well, listen, we needn and worry about that. I'm going to talk about everyone else. All these books are about to come out. I think it's the most packed. autumn there's been for many years the key thing to do we've talked before is everyone avoids each other so everyone brings their books out on different days

so last week Robert Galbraith's book came out the Hallmarked Man that's JK Rowling's pseudonym with the Cornman Strike novels so that is out it's another 900 page behemoth so that'll be number one but this week in fact today the new Dan Brown is coming out the Secret of Secrets

the sixth book in the Robert Langdon series so that you know what we know is the Da Vinci Code series. It's been eight years since his last one. So there was an awful lot of hoopla around this book. It will sell very, very well, particularly in the States. I would love, listen, you must choose weapons advisedly, but I would love to beat him. That would be nice, wouldn't it? But he's, listen, actually, I'm quite a big fan of Dan Brown. I don't know why, but I enjoy reading the books. But the secret of secrets is coming out. This one's about consciousness. And a scientist disappears and a manuscript is lost, but it could change the way we think about the brain forever. Does it contain a hot age gap inappropriate relationship? Well, I think Robert Langdon is eight years old than he was last time. Oh, great.

Well, then that could be even bigger the gap. Yeah. But I think this missing professor, who is a woman, I suspect she hasn't been aged eight years. But we'll find out, I guess. He says it's by far the most intricately plotted and ambitious of my books yet, and dare I say, the most fun. Oh, okay. So that's got to come out around the world today,

And particularly in the States, that's going to be huge. But we've talked a lot. There's something in the air about, you know, men are not allowed to write books anymore. And, you know, and fiction is a female-dominated industry, much more than any of the other arts. And that seems to infuriate people because, you know, I mean, let women have one of them. So, you know, the biggest sellers was Sarah J. Maas, Rebecca Yaros, Kaleen Hoover. These are the big selling books. But this autumn, pretty much all the big books are men.

So we got, well, we had J.K. Rodin. We got Dan Brown. Mick Heron has his new Slough House book out on the 11th. That's called Clown Town and is as good as all his others. And by which I mean, I love his others as well. Yeah, he's absolutely brilliant. And I'm doing an event with him, funny enough, quite soon we're both talking about our new books. Then Ken Follett is back.

Ken Follett is another one of those kind of big beasts. He's got his Stonehenge. Of male literature. Circle of Days. Circle of that's about the building of Stonehenge, right? Yeah, exactly. He's done a lot of research. No, but his books are always, you know, they're the kind of things they can.

they'll keep you going for weeks and weeks and weeks but again around the world archer he's there as well he's got a new one out um so follet archer brown heron philip pullman has uh the rosefield which is the third book in the the book of dust series so that's out as well so all of these big hitters there's a new jack reacher out in november as well all on different weekends there's one new name to join the absolute big hitters because actually that list is sort of can be fairly unmoving and And the big name that the last couple of years has released books and they've done all right, but is absolutely now in the top tier. It's Bob Mortimer. So Bob Mortimer is the long shoe.

And he is, for all the talk of celebrity novelists, none of them really sell. No. But Bob Mortimer is now in the absolute A list, and he sells a lot. He sells a lot in hardback and he sells a lot in paperback. So he now becomes someone you have to avoid as well. So his book, you know, he's in the first two, you'd be like, oh, they're avoiding everyone. And now everyone's avoiding Bob. And his is out on the 9th of October, the long shoe that one's called.

So in a world where, as I say, we're told, we're asked where of all the male novelists gone? All the male novelists will be in Waterstones and W.O.T. Smith and your local independent in the run-up to Christmas. Can I just say something about this? Because I knew we're going to talk about this today. And I'm interested in this because I read this whole deep dive that the pipe for sort of literary fiction or for people to become maybe literary and popular, whatever, has sort of closed. this is the thing that I read that I found was really extraordinary. The New Yorker has never published a piece of fiction by a white male born after 1984. Ever? No.

So they've got, they've published lots of millennial, you know, many, many pieces of millennial fiction, but none by a white male. Now, because younger white men don't write these type of books, right? Is that correct? And yet all of these guys are, I mean, these guys are of a certain age. I'm not putting you in that age bracket, but I'm just saying. saying that these guys... Yeah, and you don't care about things like that. I know you are.

But of a certain of age, right? And it reminds me a little bit of that thing that we talked about before in movies where the biggest stars are actually the biggest stars of who they were, 20, 30 years. And there hasn't been this new generation come through, right? That's not the case with you because you've done something different. And by the way, although your books are very confident, they're different to this type of, in some ways, quite a male book. And I'm going to qualify that in a minute, so just hang on to that one.

but there hasn't been a sort of way through in that in literary fiction I guess male writers are sort of worrying about either casting themselves as some kind of victim or just thinking people like me are the villain and so but popular fiction has no such qualms and also not such few sales so what does that say about the type you know that people really want these books and another thing that I think is interesting is that but Books by men skew about 50-50 in terms of on the gender readership, so about half and half read by men and women. Books by women skew miles more heavily in favour of women readers.

And maybe women read more, whatever it is. So they've been on the up. But something that I find quite interesting is that there's so little publicly available data in publishing. Why is that? I don't really know who buys these books. Yeah, I think it's because there's so few actual big publishing companies. is it's seen as commercially sensitive, you know, because, you know, there's all these different imprints, but actually all of them are owned by the same four or five companies.

So, so long as they're sharing that information internally, they have all the kind of stuff. Do you see things like that? Yes. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Like who sells and do you see breakdowns of? Absolutely.

Gender, age, everything. For you or for others? For me. I guess I could ask for others, but. Well, I just think it's always interesting. The more you know, I think it's interesting. I think so, too. Yeah.

I think what the point you're making there is, there's not a shortage of male writers. There is a shortage of young male writers. All of the young writers are women. Yeah, all the young... And I'm not saying that's... You know, that's wonderful. And it's great.

And as you said, let them have... Let the chicks have something. You didn't put it like that. I just really want to qualify that. But it's interesting that a generation hasn't come through in that way. I mean, maybe arguably even, to some extent, in literary fiction,

but they haven't come through in that same way, a generation of kind of... Yeah. And I think the interesting thing will be, despite the fact you've got all of these heavy hitters and, you know, the down brown book will have so much money put behind it and all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, probably the biggest selling fiction book leading up to Christmas will be a paperback, which is very, very rare because it's almost always hard backs. And that's Freedom of Fadden, who we've talked about before, who in October has a new book called The Intruder that's coming out. and because she appeals to younger readers and because she appeals very directly to female readers

which is where the money is and where the eyeballs are I think a lot of these books will do very well perhaps not as well as some of them might have done in their heyday but I wonder if Freedom at Fadden might top them all I saw Beckham reading that on his yacht holiday of Freedom at Fadden did you? Yes he's a metrosexual he was reading it on the deck of his big boat

okay God she'd be delighted I'd like honestly if you tucked a Thursday murder club onto his arm I wouldn't I'd be like you know what I'll take that But yeah all of that stuff is coming out this autumn And by the way I can't think in that whole this there'll be a bad book So whatever sort of stuff you like There's great stuff there

Please please please go into bookshops and buy these things if you can If you can't if you know Chuck down Brown a bone you know But go into a shop buy whatever you want in there But just but do visit do visit bookshops because this three months leading up to Christmas is absolutely make or break for so many wonderful little local independent shops

and they do incredible deals and incredible events and I've said before if they are charging you more than Amazon it is not because they are taking a bigger profit they are not gouging you at all they have to pay all sorts of taxes they have to pay their rents they have to pay staff all of that kind of stuff

so if you can afford the extra couple of quid if you can't then you absolutely just read just read just read if you can afford an extra couple of quid then those bookshops will still be there and five years time and 10 years time and that's what we'd all love, isn't it? Just read. Just read. A book it is the best present you can buy someone

because it's the only present you can get for under a tenor that's easy to wrap and last a lifetime. Any recommendations this week, Marina? I have got recommendation. I saw a really fun play. It's called Born with Teeth and it's a two-parter and it stars Shuti Gatwa and Edward Blumul. and it's basically imagining a writer's room with Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe

and it's really funny it's really sexy it's really highbrow I'd like all the stuff but it's also really trashy those are four things I really like and I thought it was I really liked it I think young people younger people I'm know people are always trying to get younger people into theatres I think it would be great it's very spirited and great fun. I really enjoyed it. So I'm going to recommend the Dog House on Channel 4, which is back for another series, which is the lovely show where it's all to do with dogs who need a home and families who come in who are looking for a pet and just working out which pet suits,

which people. So you get the stories of the people, you get the stories of the dogs, and usually a happy ending as well. But it's just there's nothing not to like in the doghouse. I think it's the biggest show on Channel 4 this week as well. I'm not at all surprised. What about Bekov, even bigger? Do you know what? I forgot Bake-off. I forgot Bake-off, which we will talk about at some point, I'm sure. It is the second biggest show on Channel 4 this week. Thank you. Well, we will be back on Thursday for the Q&A episode. And we also have a really fun bonus on Waterworld. The famous Kevin Costner flop, or was it? Or was it a flop? Often seen as one of the biggest flops of all time. Was it, Marina? If you like stories about films going wrong in the filming of them, and you know we do.

It's a very good one. Anyway, you can join at the rest is entertainment.com. Otherwise, we will see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday, everyone. This episode is brought to you by the TV from Sky. Skyglass. Think of Skyglass as the pit crew Ferrari didn't know it had. Fine-tuning every detail for the perfect lap. It keeps the drama where it belongs on screen, never in your setup and turns your living room into the podium. With Skyglass's 4K HDR picture, colors burn brighter, shadows swallow you

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only. Hey, it's Anthony Scaramucci from the rest of spot. politics, U.S., if you're looking for something to play next, Caddy Kay and I just launched a new mini-series about Ronald Reagan. We're digging into the real Reagan story, the rise, the drama, how his world has been turned upside down in the age of Trump. We trace his rise from Hollywood to the White House, from his role in ending the Cold War to reviving the economy. And we also confront those scandals, Iran-Contra, his assassination attempt,

and his failure around the AIDS epidemic. Just search the rest of politics, U.S., wherever you get your podcast. Here's a clip from the series. Ronald Reagan knew how to go big and go bold. He truly was the great communicator. Together, we're going to do what has to be done. He regrounded the GOP and conservative principles. Free markets, small government, and an unshakable faith in American exceptionalism.

Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall. Ronald Reagan shook the. country. People keep looking to government for the answer, and government's the problem. President Reagan was shot in the chest by a gunman outside to Washington Hotel. We did not trade weapons or anything else for hostages. Uncomfortable as it is to admit, the 40th president inadvertently prepared the ground for the 45th. It's not Reagan's party anymore. Donald Trump destroyed Ronald Reagan. I thought he was great, distile, his attitude, but not great on trade.

Will we be the party of conservatism? Or will we follow? of the siren song of populism. Only one man has the proven experience we need. Together, we'll make America great again. Thank you very much. We hope you enjoyed that clip to hear the full series just search the rest is politics, US.