The Rest Is Entertainment - Have Celebs Lost Their Cool?

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Who and what is “cool”? Richard and Marina have their first disagreement of 2025. We know there is a lot of fakery in TV - the secrets of The Apprentice, Gogglebox and Who Do You Think You Are? are revealed. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club for ad free listening and access to bonus episodes: www.therestisentertainment.com Sign up to our newsletter: www.therestisentertainment.com Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/trie It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Rest is Entertainment questions and answers episode. I'm Marina Hyde. That was absolutely faultless. Thank you. Hi, nice to see you. Who are you? I'm so sorry. Do you know what?

Absolutely hoisted my own petard there, wasn't I? I'm Richard Osman. I used to be on Pointless. Oh, yeah. Do you remember? You know that guy. Yeah, I know that guy. Yeah. Whatever happened to him? I've got a couple of you know that guy? Yeah, yeah, I know that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whatever happened to him? I've got a couple of views about him, but anyway, we'll get onto those shortly. Before we get to questions, can we do some any other business? We were talking on last week's Questions and Answers edition about the lack of success for women at the Oscars and how the Academy is not giving awards to women. And we got this from Stephen Follows. He's a film data researcher and a consultant for the Guinness World Records on movie records. That's a cool job, Stephen.

Thank you so much for writing in. And he said, Marina is absolutely right. He crunched the numbers for you. He said, in mixed gender competition, where women and men are in the same category, only 8% of all wins of all time were women beating men. Only 8%. 97% of cinematography wins, 86% of best directors wins have gone to men only winners. He said the only exception in the Oscars, can you guess the only exception?

Hair and make-up. Costume design with women winning over half the time when competing against men. Stephen, thank you so much for that. Oh, great to have a data researcher from Guinness World Records backing up anything you say. He should follow you around. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that could happen with a lot of the stuff I say, sadly, but data research from Guinness World Records backing up anything you say. He should follow you around. I don't think that could happen with a lot of the stuff I say, sadly, but we will have another look at those statistics in the wake of the Oscars this year. Shall we go to questions?

Yes, please. James Miller has a question. He says, before a recent Swade concert in Manchester, my friend saw Brett Anderson, I know him, having a walk in the park before the show. And he said he looked like the coolest guy in the world. I was wondering who you both think are the coolest people in show business, the coolest people you've met. He doesn't use the word people by the way, he uses the MF word. Come on. Come on James. James is trying to be cool there. People who I think cool is under threat and I will tell you why but I really

thought about this question because I think it's very interesting and I think that in film, starting in film I suppose, Keanu Reeves is cool. Yes, yeah. Harrison Ford is still cool. He's still cool. In terms of much younger people, I don't think, Timothee Chalamet is sweet, but he's not cool. The Kardashians are like the least cool people in the world. You can't go out with a Kardashian and still be cool. So he's unfortunately done himself.

Some of the scars guards. Don't ask me which ones. Sydney Sweeney, but particularly because she seems like she doesn't care. I don't know whether she does or doesn't, but she seems like she doesn't. And I think that's a huge part of cool. There were people who were cool and aren't anymore. Johnny Depp used to be cool. Oh, he used to be so cool. Angelina Jolie used to be cool. But someone like Zendaya, Zendaya seems lovely. She's obviously incredibly beautiful and grammish and whatever, but I wouldn't describe her as cool. For women particularly, I think it's

much harder for women actresses in the history of everything because there's such a sort of impossible standard placed on the beauty and whatever and the type of the roles that it's interesting that when we think people were cool, we think, oh, Catherine Hepburn was cool, but that was because she was of white. Was she cool? I suppose she was cool. I mean it's not the first word you think of. With Marilyn Monroe? No I think you think of sexy. You think you're vulnerable and things like that. I don't think you think of cool. Steve McQueen you're thinking cool. All the men you're talking about are very very handsome. Timothy Chalamet is very handsome. Johnny Depp is very handsome.

A lot of the time that's what we mean by cool. But lots of people are handsome and lots of people are beautiful, but cool is something different. Absolutely, but it's quite hard to be cool without being beautiful as a man any more than a woman. Yes, I think actually in music there's much more latitude for particularly women to be. Okay, Charlie XCX is very cool. Patti Smith is very cool.

Yeah, Patti Smith is very cool. Debbie Harry. And again, and you can be unconventional. Chaperone is cool. I think people are different and it's hard to be a megastar and cool. I don't think cool is the first thing you would say about Taylor Swift. In fact, a lot of her output and her lyrics are not about being cool. Madonna was cool. I think that-

And then she married Guy Ritchie, was she still cool? Yeah, which was- and you can't come back from it. That's like the female equivalent of going out with a Kardashian. Yes, it's exactly that. But I think that part of the reason that cool is on the threat, there are various reasons. I think that people are trying too hard. So we all know that everyone filters themselves and you know, people look like they care. Influencers just are not cool. Nothing cool about it. Yeah, Mr. Beast isn't cool. No, my God. I mean, what social media has done is devalue the idea of privacy as we know.

And I think you need some sort of privacy and unknowability in order to have mystique, which for me is a big part of cool. Mystique is a huge part of cool. A portion of unknowability to people was a big part of cool and just the endless content of it all, you know, we've become much more aesthetically literate, so we don't feel that any good photo of someone was just caught really quickly. It was just a candid, unaware. Look at Serge Gansbourg smoking.

He's cool. People now feel like they had to do 20 photos of whoever to get that, or 30, because they do that themselves on their own Instagram pages or their own social media. The main threat to cool has been a cultural threat, which is that everyone is a sort of homogenized mass of approved opinions and behaviors. And I think you need to be quite free spirited and almost dangerous in some ways to be cool. I think that is always a part that you might say something unexpected. And I think over the past few years, people have said very expected things and they've tend not to sort

of try and be an outlier because an outlier as in a herd, those are the ones that get picked off. So you're saying the membrane between cool and cancelled is very porous. Yes, I think to some extent, I think you have to be sort of outsiderish to some degree. Also, I think that you want to be able to feel that people might go against their commercial interests, even just for sort of shits and giggles. Yes, that's cool. Yeah, but there's much more of a sort of grind set and people think I'm going to work every day. I'm not, you know, I'm grind set.

Yeah. That's the first time I've heard that expression. No. Yeah. Is it? There's like a mindset, but for the grind. Yes, it is. This is an expression. And I think that if you go through the bonds, okay, like who, okay, Sean Connery, cool. Roger Moore Moore like so not cool that he's actually cool.

Now, yeah, he's gone full circle. Pierce Brosnan not cool. What? Pierce Brosnan. Can I tell you this now? No, no, let me tell you. Listen, Senator, I have met Brett Anderson and I have met Pierce Brosnan. And listen, they are both cool, but Pierce Brosnan is the coolest man I have ever met. And I'll tell you why he's cool. Cause he's incredibly handsome.

So he could absolutely sail through life in any way he wanted. He could behave in any way he wanted. And he is such a gentle, thoughtful soul and spends his time painting. That's nice. That's not cool. I don't believe that that's the intrinsic. I think you're just expanding the category ridiculously in elastic fashion. I am allowed to define how, no, no, it's not that he's an all-around nice guy. He is very,

very cool. He was James Bond and yet he's still this incredibly giving human being. Which is what you're saying there is that he's humble. You're not saying he's cool. No, of course he's cool. I don't think that's cool. I think it's he's cool. I don't think that's cool. It's very specific qualities pertain to cool and that's not them. Wow. It's like I'm talking to someone who's never seen the Thomas Crown Affair. You can't say Pierce Brosnan is not cool. I can and I have. I love him by the way. I absolutely love him. This is absolutely no shade.

I don't think that is the persona and I think that's incorrect to suggest that that is the persona. Oh right, listen, he's not someone who you'd kind of like a teenager might have a poster on their wall because you know someone's smoking a Marlboro on a motorbike right but that's not that cool Richard. No but that's what that's not cool kids. Going on motorbikes is not cool. There's that very old fashion version of cool which is absolutely that a rebel and an outsider and somebody who doesn't play by the rules but that's gone a long time ago. Not necessarily. I think in music people can be still like that and I think it's harder in cinema and it's harder in a world where it seemed like the kind of, the cultural conversation has to be very narrow and very prescribed and you can't say unusual and interesting things. I think that is harder but I don you say for grand, let's do the supermodels.

If you know, okay, this is cool. Okay. Is she having a Christian since call Claudia Schiffer not call. Wow. I don't know if it's Kate Moss. Cool. Yes. Kate Moss was cool. I'm sorry that I'm sorry that you think that his brother was gone and Kate Moss wasn't cool. If you think Pierce Brosnan is bad, you're going to hear the rest of my list. You're going to lose your mind. Yes, I can see that Kate Moss was cool. But then, but then if you see some of the people she surrounded herself with, there's some of the worst people in the world. But you know what I mean? Yeah, amongst them she wrote, yes, she's a lotus of coolness. Yeah, she sat amongst them.

Yeah. And not everyone she hang around with was awful. But I'm just thinking a few very specific people in North London were okay. Sorry, who else is on your list? Well it's hard now because I was going to lead with Pierce Brosnan and listen it's hard, feel like I'm taking on water. Lee Child is very, very, very cool. So in the same way that Reacher, his hero, is very, very, very cool. Reacher is cool, right? Reacher is cool. Yeah, Reacher is very cool and Lee Child is as well because Lee Child you know writes these books lives on a ranch in Wyoming half the year and just you know and it's just one of those people who just walks

in a room and everybody turns their head he's just anyone you feel could be in the wild west in the west Billy Bob Thornton he's cool you still get the impression he doesn't care and he's dangerous and he might just blow everything up but with Lee Child you have Child you have to look twice because you look at him once and then you look at him again and you say hold on a minute is he smoking on a motorbike? No he's not he's just walked into the room. So Lee Child I would say is very cool but I have a very different view of what cool is. Victoria Woods is one of the coolest people I ever met. Well I think she is utterly amazing and a genius and all sorts of other things she means more to me than almost any other comedian but I don't think she is utterly amazing and a genius and all sorts of other things. She means more to me than almost any other comedian, but I don't think she's cool.

You don't think she's cool? You don't think being... Well, I'm sure it just becomes a sort of meaningless word that you just apply to people you quite like or in my case, love. But you are... I don't think that's the same thing as saying what is a sort of platonic ideal of cool through the ages. And you know, that may be morphs and changes and obviously, you know, John Wayne is not the same as what came after him or whatever. And I understand all

of that. Mylena Dietrich is not the same as what came after. But nonetheless, you know, and I think Victoria would have hooted with laughter if you described her as cool. Of course you would understand what that's why she's cool. You know, as as Huey Lewis said, it's hip to be square. Wow. Honestly, I've got the name Stephen Henry written down here because you haven't. Yeah, for the benefit of time, holding the portion above my nose, which is what people do. He's cool because he's completely different to how you think he's going to be completely different to how he comes across on TV is just a very, very

That's another of the descriptions. It's like a massive thesaurus, isn't it? This is another of the descriptions of people who are different to how you think they are. I'm so sorry. Let me look at the question again from James. Let me have a look at this. He's saying, okay, who's the coolest person in show business brackets, please only use Marina's definition of cool. Sorry, I didn't read that bit out. Did I? Sorry, I forgot. I'm now looking myself and it says you can be infinitely elastic so that you can mention some people you like. Thank you. Cause that's what cool is. James, listen, you absolutely see you've opened a

can of worms here. I'll say I will say in the bookshelves, I will say this is worse than bookshelves. Firstly, let us know members you can use our bulletin board or you know, on social media who you think is cool. I personally think that Victoria is cooler than Timothy Shanime. And also, and also Pissed. Because Timothy Shanime is not cool as I've discussed as I've you know what I've got again the game me a gavel and let's move on the Pope of cool Marina hide I'm not remotely cool I understand oh no no but you are the judge of everything that is cool I've got a gavel

and I'm gonna use it like the Pope famous have a gavel famously have a gavel judges I will say this that do. I will say this. Sorry if that's confusing. I will say this though. You're in a frightful muddle this morning. Yeah, carry on. If we can end on a note of unity, I would say this in the spirit of the question that James asks.

So his friend saw Brett Anderson in the park. So Brett, listen, it's no secret, he's the same age as my brother. They are 58 years old. He's 58 years old, right? And was walking through the park looking cool. I first met Brett when Swade first formed and he used to come around our house and he was 16. And when he was 16, he was so cool. He was cool at 16. He's cool at 58. He's been cool for 42 years years I think amongst all the disagreements we've had that's something we can agree on is Brett Anderson is cool but we want other Bretts to

spring up which is why I think people call Brett the ideals of cool because Brett the Hitman Hart? Yeah he wasn't cool. Or people like Brett. Was he not the hitman Brett Hart? Even his name was in uncalled order. I'm thinking Michael the Hitman Holt, the snooker player. The devaluation of the idea of privacy and therefore the attendance of death of mystique, we need to sort of... Not the band. No, no, who weren't called.

And who are still with us. We need to get that back. And also the fear of wrong speak which makes everyone sort of feel quite homogenised and doesn't allow the potential for people to say outside rush interesting things. I know and that's how I feel right now because I've been saying things and you're homogenizing my speech. And I've released your speech have I? Yeah you have I haven't even been able to say Roy Hodgson. Okay well that's an interesting point. Yeah. Oh my god is Roy Hodgson on your list? Yeah, Roy Hodgson's on my list. Wow. Hodgson, Wood, Brosnan, Hendry. There we go. That's cool. Done. Top of the list. Top of the list, Anderson. Anderson, we can both agree on. Yeah. Shall we move on to another question? Please.

Okay, just calming down for a second. One thing we get a lot is questions about like what's real on TV on various shows. And I'm going to put two of these together for you. Ben Anderson says, is the lift on Dragon's Den real? Brett Anderson? Brett Anderson, I don't believe would necessarily ask a question on Dragon's Den, but maybe he would, maybe he would. Maybe he would. Okay. I'm sure you can overrule me in this position, but Ben Anderson says, is the lift on Dragon's Den real? I'm convinced it isn't, as I'm pretty sure they wouldn't bother building a set across two floors just to have a lift and that the shots

of the mechanism are just B-roll taken somewhere else. Love that. Hold fire though, because Hannah Jost says about celebrity Gogglebox episodes, when they do the outside shots of the houses, do they actually use the outsides of the real celebrities houses or do they use a random house with permission from owners for privacy reasons? And those are two questions we get an awful lot. So we'll put them together. The lift, no, it is not a real lift or it is no longer a real lift. Actually, it actually was a real lift because when they first filmed Dragon's Den, it was

filmed in London in Shoreditch. And it was like an old warehouse building and the ground floor was production and it was filmed on the first floor. And they used the lift and people would walk up in the lift. And because it became iconic when they moved to Manchester and the whole thing is on one floor. It is absolutely a fake lift I should have taken apart brick by brick and transported it and rebuilt it I think it's now in the Smithsonian the original the original lift and yes So the mechanism is B roll as Brett's brother Ben are so yes

there is not a lift on Dragon's Den, but there was and so I understand why that conceit continues and celebrity goggle box no it is not the outside of celebrities houses I don't know what else to tell you that for obvious reasons it is not the outside of their houses it is essentially rented houses and the interiors as well well some people will do it in their own house but they will also say would you like to do it in a rented house some people do do it in their actual house some people do not do it in the own house, but they will also say, would you like to do it in a rented house? Some people do do it in their actual house. Some people do not do it in the house, but the definite thing is the outside of the house is not their house. So there we go, cleared both of those up. Shall we go to an advert? Let's do that.

Welcome back everybody. Marina Verity Gordon has a question which I suspect you'll know the answer to. I am a longtime re-watcher of Gilmore Girls on ITV2. Ingrid introduced me to Gilmore Girls recently. Isn't it great? Fantastic. So she was like I don't know if you're gonna enjoy this and like literally sort of five minutes in I was going oh this is one of the greatest programs I've ever made. Yeah it was amazing. It was such a thing anyway. Her question is not about whether I like it or not. Her question is this, the opening music, she says, is definitely pitched up.

I think they are running the show at a faster speed to fit the slot. Am I right? Verity, that does happen on some show, in the US by the way, on reruns, and it's a real sort of scandal. They do speed it up slightly. It's really hard to tell.

I've watched clips of Seinfeld, and they do scripts so they can put more ads in on reruns, which is, we have really strict rules governing how many ads, off-com rule, how many ads you can have in an hour and a thing. So we don't do it to increase ads. So an ITV half hour is 24 minutes, 15 seconds, usually. And so you've got those five and three quarter minutes. When they're doing cable reruns they can have

many more. When you've got them next to each other it seems like it's really obvious yeah but when you watch them apart it's quite difficult. First of all the main thing that the main reason this happens is because our PAL format PAL format is 4% fewer frames. So they speed up ours over here and so we speed up theirs over here. Do they slow ours down? Yeah, we're 25 frames a second. They're 29.97 frames a second. Okay.

So it's a... Wow. Now you're cool. Very uncool. There are ways that you can change various things on your TV now. And I'm speaking as someone who's, I I mean not that long ago with our TV set That was so complicated that if something went wrong when he was where he was away I would have to ring him up and it'd be like he would be trying to like guide me blindfold into the Death Star's formal

Assume assume as there's more than one remote control. I Literally, I leave the room. Yeah, it was really complicated. Anyway, but... How do I get the volume? Where's the volume? Broadcasters in the US do sometimes, they put it 1.1 to 1.3 times faster when they're doing reruns to increase how many ads they can show, which is bad. But isn't it interesting that Verity, the place she's spotting is the music. Yeah, and that's the place where people spot it most and that's when they say I know you're doing this And it's a real in the u.s. It's people get very angry about it

And I think they've slightly stopped doing it, but it does make it sound different But in in this case, I think in the way that what ITV would be doing because they will have much stricter rule operator Under much stricter rules and us broadcasters. It's just a conversion issue. Sorry, that is very uncool, but it is the answer. Yeah, but it's good. It's good. It's good information. And well done to Verity for spotting it as well. If I was doing I would do the theme music normal speed and then speed the rest of it up a little bit more. We used to occasionally if we had to deliver something at 24 minutes and 15 seconds and we did and it was 24 minutes and 21 seconds, we just

There's lots of stuff you can do in that and there's and actually there are lots of all sorts of interesting film editing techniques where people can make eyes 20% bigger so people look but they don't even the actor doesn't necessarily notice they just think oh I look good yeah it's really there's lots of things that you can do where it's just slightly it's not even tipping into the uncanny valley it's you're just slightly enhancing and doing things because of digital editing. Yeah, I was talking to an actor the other day, it's one of the big things about acting

is can you cry on demand, which is seen as, you know, that's the, are you a good actor or not? And it's sort of meaningless, but now they can add single tears or teardrops in post, it can all be done. Oh, it's amazing. And those actors just say, no, I never cry. I would never cry. They just, yeah, I'll do the rest of the acting and then they'll add the tears. Yeah, add my emotions in post.

Yeah. Yeah. One for you about who do you think you are. Connor Martin says, do celebrities get paid to appear on Who Do You Think You Are? In my mind, you would think they queue up to appear regardless of the fee for the sheer privilege of getting to explore their ancestry in such detail. I loved your Brighton episode. Yes, it is brilliant. Well, thank you, Conor. If you haven't seen it, please watch Richard's Brighton episode. It's really fantastic.

That's very kind. You do get paid to do it. It's an interesting one because Conor is absolutely right. It's one of those shows where if they said, oh, by the way, you don't get paid, I 100% just would have done it because I wanted to do it to get the family history to give to my family. But you know, not everyone is going to be that way. And you pay to get people to do it. And mainly you're paying for someone's time. It's the truth. You know, if you're filming for four days, that's four days work where you

could be doing other things. And so, you know, you have a daily rate and, you know, because it's the BBC and because it is prestigious, it's not a huge amount of money, but it's, you know, you get, you do get paid for your time. Very, very occasionally, if you do a celebrity show, you won't get paid. Often my view has always been pay me because everyone else on the show is getting paid. Pay me and I can choose to give that money to charity because Channel Four are still earning advertising money on these shows and the production company is still earning their fee on these shows. So everyone's getting paid. So, you know, I think

you're allowed to get paid as a performer. I would always, I've never done a charity show and not given the money to charity. But that's, that's would be my take. But often certain shows you'll do if it's a favour to a friend, you say, oh, don't worry about getting paid. I don't need that. You're paying for someone's time. So there's not a single show where you wouldn't be paid or at least being offered to be paid.

But yeah, Who Do You Think You Are is an interesting one because there's certain shows where, of course, you're going to do Who Do You Think You Are. Yeah. And of course, you would do it for nothing. I think if I was the production company, it's quite a big ask to say, oh, by the way, we need a week of your time and you're not going to get paid. I think it would put some people off. No, it's commercial.

There should always be some form of acknowledgement of that. Yeah, yeah. And also because then you start a thing where you say, oh, we don't pay. And then there's someone else comes and does it who maybe isn't in a position to say, oh, well, I don't know. Fascinating family story, but isn't in a position to say, oh, yeah, I can just have a week off and not get paid for it. No, it's very rare in life that someone pays you to do something you would do for free.

It does happen. And that's definitely one of those. What about this podcast? Occasions. Yes. Do you know what? I would love to get paid, but you know, I just like, I like being told what cool is and where else am I going to get that? You know what I mean? Where else am I going to be told that Stephen Henry isn't cool? Talking of questions we get a lot. In fact, this is a question we have three times within 15 minutes of each other from Kieran, Andrew and Steve. They all ask the same question. This is an amalgam of what they're asking. Do they really get

up at 4am? The contestants on The Apprentice. Why does the voice on the phone say the cars will arrive in 20 minutes and then the candidates are immediately leaving with immaculately coiffured hairstyles and perfectly dressed? Well, the house is a host to a lot of people because also they've got producers, researchers, welfare experts. I mean, it's like a sort of dorm room really. And they're sort of glorified babysitters and they have to ensure that the candidates are as disorientated as possible. That's really always important in those reality shows. If people are sort of still connected to the outside world, you want these kind of, you want a bubble and then people will behave in those heightened ways which make excellent

television so they don't have phones they don't have clocks they don't have contact with the outside world they sometimes call your family relatively rare occasions the alarm is set at 4am and they do only have 20 minutes to get ready but sometimes the producers have to turn the lights on or like bang the doors to make sure that they actually wake up. You see it's interesting this it's it's sort of a conceit it's sort of a conceit because you know some days they do have to be at the you know the National Air Force Museum at Duxford but sometimes they have to be just down the road and it's at 4 a.m. and you you know the cars are arriving in 20 minutes you

think well the cars have just left and it's sunshiny outside so it's not 4 a.m. And you you know the cars are arriving in 20 minutes you think well the cars have just left and it's Sunshiny outside so it's not 420 and there's no way that had 20 minutes. Yeah, there's no way So there was some truth in that they are woken up very early because a filming day is a very very very long day And so to sort of tell the truth of a situation Which is these people are woken from their slumber at a time They don't know it's gonna happen and have to get ready very very quickly that is true for sure but they wake up at four o'clock the car does not leave at 420 that is that is definitely not happening so it's one of those weird TV things where it's it's it's true and not true it's it tells the truth of the story of the show which is

these people are very very very tired all the time because they are being woken at ridiculous hours. Sleep deprivation is both one of torture and reality TV's greatest weapons. Yes, isn't it? So they go into bed, often going to bed about 11 o'clock and then you are up at four. And a lot of the lunatic decisions they make and the kind of absolutely kind of left field behavior comes because they are very very tired. Yeah, are because they are absolutely shattered. In terms of what the show is, it is real because what you want to show is that these people are absolutely out of their comfort zones and they

are exhausted. It is not real in terms of they're not leaving 20 minutes after they're woken up because there's a million shots to do and even the shots of them walking to the car. It's going to take longer than 20 minutes. It's not like three seconds of just as a camera the camera four different cameras four different angles let's do a shot of your feet let's do the car moving away let's do the car moving away and you fail to move in lockstep I don't care if you're tired you know exactly and that takes a really really really long time so by the time the cars leave which is why you have to get up at 4 a. 4am because you've got to fit a lot into a filming day. So it's one of those bits of TV fakery that sort of is fakery and isn't fakery. They also are allowed to do huge amounts

of makeup before they go into the... The boardroom is very... But that, it would look so much worse if they were sort of disheveled and whatever. You want that to look like, even though it's clearly a sort of weird set, that's in sort of West Acton bit, you want that to look like a prestige though it's clearly a sort of weird set, that's in sort of West Acton bit, you want that to look like a prestige set, Sugar on the Booster seat, concealed. Is he cool? Everyone has to look like, yeah, is he cool? Come on. Do you think he's cool? Sugar?

Of course. Why don't you just be so contrarian that you say Alan Sugar is cool? I think Margaret Manford was cool. That's what I think about that. I think she was cool. You're fine. Are you saying that Margaret Manford wasn't cool? Yes, I am. I'm so sorry.

Wow. What the Steve McQueen of the West Acton boardroom. Do me a favour. This is so ridiculous. I can't. I'm not going to end on this. I am ending on it. No, she is cool. And of course the boardroom is not going to end on this. I am ending on it.

No, she is cool. And of course the boardroom is not in the Gherkin, those are the drone shots so you know, all they're saying, they're not saying it's in the Gherkin, they're just just before they're in the boardroom, they have a shot of the Gherkin. Those two things are unrelated. Then, yeah, as you say, they have to look amazing, they can't just to finish this task. It would just look worse. All of this, it wants to look amazing, it wants to look prestige, because you do at some point have to convince people that they're going for a very you know Aspirational job. Yeah, and if you just have people looking sort of like they're doing a kind of garden task on Big Brother

Yes, and it doesn't look great and it also has to be containable because you're filming an awful lot of people there There's an awful lot of shots to be if you think about how that's filmed and you don't you know He's talked to it could be talking to 12 different people and you got one you don't know who you'll go to next so many you know exactly so that that's that's a contained environment that you don't want to be lied to and find out that you know Bear Grylls is staying in a luxury hotel while he's pretending to be under the bivouac or whatever but you do you do want you do want to just a plucking example from nowhere well there was such when there was the big sort of telefakery scandal of which the Bear Grylls bit was just

one bit of it, people thereafter felt like, oh, we can't have... For instance, we know they don't stay in the castle in the traitors because we had a telefakery scandal. So in our UK version of the traitors, they drive away in their cars. In the US version, they're quite happy to pretend to walk upstairs even though they're not going to sleep there because they didn't have a telephakery scandal and they're Americans, they wouldn't get involved in such a stupid little piece of sideshow rubbish. They don't care about telephakery, it's television, it's entertainment, they don't mind. So that's why they have those

two different things and that's a good sort of illustration of the difference between our two countries in terms of artifice and how much is allowed and licensed. By the way, listen, the discussion for another day, but some of the decisions Lord Sugar is taking on who he's firing this series are absolutely unhinged. I mean, genuinely, I'm like, listen, I get it. I mean, the problem and thing with that show is he's seen all the, he knows what all their business proposals are. That's the thing he's read on me already. I can't work with this person. You know so he already you know he knows he you know he knows he doesn't want to get rid of so you'll watch a whole episode that's been artfully edited in such a way to make you think okay it's either that person or that person then at the end you'll

go you're fired and the poor producers are going we there is no way we could have edited it in a way to even hint that that was going to happen. We did the best we can and it still seems mental. Nothing they did would allow them to be fired. So we couldn't even just artfully create it. But that's the show. Still doing good numbers, doing good business. Should we draw a veil over today's show?

I think we'd better draw a veil over today. I mean a lot to think about. For me, very little, but for you I think we'd better draw a veil over today. I mean, a lot to think about. A lot to think about. For me, very little, but for you, I think, yes, I think you perhaps should go away and think about it some more. Wow, that's interesting. I wonder if, like bookshelves, I wonder if there might be more support for my view than you imagine out there.

I think we're tired of that 70s, 80s version of cool, I think. I think cool means something different now. It's not from the 70s or 80s. Some of them are going back to the 1930s. Oh, I'm sorry. I was I was I was honestly trying to be supportive of you by by bringing it forward a little bit. But yeah, I think a lot of you know, that's 100 years ago. So yeah, you know what? That's an interesting question. That's an interesting question. Let me answer as if I was from a hundred years ago Yeah, but you're asking you're saying why were those people cool? Why was Katherine Hepburn cool? Why is Charlie X yet school you can still have a conversation and it can be contempo or it can be historical

For sure, but I just feel like you've said Stephen Henry's cool How about we see everybody? So who's cooler Johnny Depp or Stephen Henry? No that's not the same position I said Johnny Depp isn't cool anymore. Who's? In their heyday who is cooler Johnny Depp or Stephen Henry? I can't even. Henry. Let's move on. No I think we're finished. Yeah we are. Join us tomorrow if you're a member of our club for the bonus episode. Absolutely fallen apart. Absolutely fallen apart. Absolutely fallen apart.

This is like in Get Back when George walks out. Who's the coolest one in the Beatles? See, traditionally you're supposed to say George Harrison, but of course it's McCartney. I think McCartney is cool. Yeah. Finally. Can I just say all of the Beatles. In the terms of the coolest one.

Okay, we'll discuss this another day. We might have to return to this. This is Bookshelves. On that note, please join us tomorrow if you're a member of our club where we've got a special episode, special bonus episode for you on Bergerac. Who is cool. Okay. John Nestles was 80s cool. Yes I agree with that. Yeah. Anyhow, but if not as usual we will be back next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday.