The Rest Is Entertainment - Holly Willoughby On YouTube - The Verdict!

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

Are critics missing the point of Holly Willoughby’s YouTube show? Is Elon Musk leading a new era of Hollywood ‘Wokebusters’? What are the allegations against Jared Leto? Holly Willoughby’s new YouTube show has provoked scathing reviews and comparisons to Meghan Markle. But are the critics right? And why are prime-time presenters swapping TV shows for YouTube channels?  Oscar-winning Jared Leto has denied accusations of criminal sexual misconduct made by multiple women in a new BBC documentary. Richard and Marina discuss the documentary.  Elon Musk is using his AI model, Grok, to make a “historically accurate” version of The Odyssey, after the success of Christopher Nolan’s blockbuster. Should we be worried about this new wave of Wokebusters? The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Sponsored by Lloyds. Looking for extra value from your spending? You can bank on Lloyds to help your money go further. Search Lloyds Rewards in your app. Summer sale is here: get an annual membership for a third off with code SUMMER26. That's ad-free listening, every bonus episode, and full access to our exclusive members' series. Sale ends August 31st, so grab it before summer's over. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com  Video Editor: Adam Thornton Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott  Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy  Social Producer: Emma Jackson Exec Producer: Ami Bennett Filmed at www.westdigitalstudios.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rest is entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, one talent can make a career, three usually gets you an official title. Yep, and that official title is a triple threat. You call triple threat anyone who can act, sing and dance. Now, these days, three can seem almost modest. The same person might write, direct, produce, and have another career on the side. J-Lo would be a triple threat, huge music career, started as a dancer, huge acting career as well.

It's an amazing talent to be able to have. And now drinks mogul as well. Is she? You have to be the mogul now. I think the mogul is always the third thing now. So she's a quadruple threat. Yeah, I sing, I act and I have a lifestyle portal. But that phrase all singing all dances.

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of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina. And me, Richard Asma, hi, everybody. Hi, Marina. Hi, Richard, how are you? I'm all right. Nice weekend. I have had a lovely weekend. Thank you, Richard.

Spendid, how about you? Yes, not bad at all. Last week I did an interview for my audio book with Nicola Walker, who reads my audio. It's, oh, my God. She's so amazing. So amazing. I love her.

She was brilliant on how people read audiobooks and how, you know, getting the voices. And oh, my God, it was so good. I might have given her a couple of tips after my vision quest. Yes, I did talk to her about how much you'd enjoyed your audio book adventures. Anyhow, what are we talking about this week? We are going to talk about Holly Willoughby has launched a new show and it is a YouTube exclusive. It is not on terrestrial TV. We're going to talk about the reviews for that, which have been sensationally.

I'll say misguided, but we'll talk about whether it's a good move for Holly and what it means about the future of talent on television. And we're going to talk about mockbusters. Elon Musk's now several months' obsession with how accurate Christopher Nolan's Odyssey is, has reached new heights as he threatens to actually go ahead and make a new version of it on his own. We'll talk about the different ideas he's got for doing it. All with AI. You'll be delighted to hear. And we're also talking about the Jared Alito documentary on...

BBC 1. Should we start then with Holly Willoughby? So she's got there, a new show is called Holly Willoughby Together. Yeah. Launched on YouTube last week. The second episode came out on Friday. It is sponsored by Voi. It starts as a men's health brand. I think there was a men's health brand and a women's health brand.

It's a weight loss thing. Yeah. They do other things as well. They branch out. It's a sort of deconstructed morning magazine show, isn't it? This show. It's lifestyle programming. It's chat. It's cooking. You can see there's going to be interviews and fashion. It's the sort of thing you might have seen, to some degree, on this morning.

The one that's come out is her Stanley Tucci comes around to a kitchen and makes some pasta with her and chats with her. And then the one on Friday is Catherine Ryan. And because she doesn't cook with her, they have a little drink, they just sit down on the sofa. So, yeah, it's sort of this morning light. It's what Holly is good at. But it is YouTube exclusive. Now, the reviewers, I mean, you can say it's a fun show to her.

review because you know they and everyone's been punching down the reviews have been scathing. I don't want to review the reviews but my review of the reviews would be equally scathing. Oh good, let's review the reviews. They reviewed it as a TV show which it isn't. It is a YouTube thing and if you could review all sorts of things on YouTube in a different way than you might on TV. It's not the same as With Love, Megan, because that is obviously made for Netflix and it was very much a TV show. They were all comparing it to With Love Megan, which is one of the most expensive. pieces of content you're ever going to see.

Yes. And it's very much a TV show and it's designed as a TV show, whatever. This is supposed to be different. And there's also sort of little clues for how they want to make it seem different, I think, which we might as well talk a bit about the visual language of it. That it's kind of deconstructed.

You can see the people with the cameras sometimes. They have quite a few cameras. Obviously, on YouTube, normally people can be quite lo-fi. They even had a camera inside the fridge to see her getting the stuff out. That poor camera operator. I know. Well, we kept seeing her because sometimes you'd wander across a shot, I think on purpose.

Because it's deconstructed, they want you to think it's authentic and it's in a kitchen, but it's a built kitchen. Yes, but they're showing you it's a built kitchen. They're showing you it's a built kitchen, yeah. And, you know, there's flags saying it includes paid promotion. So it's definitely a YouTube thing. By the way, I would say to a lot of the reviewers, this is what lifestyle programming is. It's what Morning Magazine shows are.

It may not be for you. It reminds me occasionally when you'll get one of the food critics will go and, you know, I don't know, review weather spoons or something. It's like, yeah, it's not for you okay? It's not supposed to be what you're, you know, you're not, but it's still good. Yeah, you're not understanding on its own terms. So she is a native to this kind of thing,

Holly. That's where she comes from. And they're sort of deconstructing her as well. We start with kind of, we start with the thing that finally we were talking about the Q&A, the Netflix thing, where we sort of see the bit before the bit, where she's sort of wandering around and Stanley's about to arrive and she swears and stuff like that. And, you know, they're sort of setting out a stool

that says, this absolutely is Holly. There's absolutely going to be cooking. There's absolutely going to be celebrities. But this is not a terrestrial television program. So the visuals of it, it deconstructs what that show is. Yeah. It's trying to show all the working. Yeah. And the way she is allowed to present, deconstructs who she is as a human being as well. It doesn't take long before you get, before you realize Holly has always been exactly what she is on TV. So, you know, it's absolutely her. Also, of course, if you're a TV reviewer, and listen, what else can they do? I don't review the first episode or something because they don't know what it is yet.

They don't quite know. You can see what they're absolutely. If you're reviewing it, you have to understand the process of making a television program. You have to understand the process they're going through what is they're trying to do and how they're trying to do it. Well, I would actually counter that you have to understand the process of making a YouTube video, which I don't think anybody that I read any reviews of did understand. Stuart Heritage did actually. To be fair, fair enough, he always understands.

He gets a free pass. He gets a free pass for everything. But yeah, the rest of it. And listen, I get it. you've got to fill a column, haven't you? It's absolutely fine. And, you know, Holly can handle herself. But, yeah, I thought that if anyone had read the reviews

and had read the thing that they might get a different impression as to what's happening here, because I think it's rather interesting. Okay, so let's talk about how it's performing, which is interesting. Again, we're comparing something. This morning gets about, what, 600, 700,000 viewers. Yeah. So this had 35,000 viewers in its first 24 hours, 11,000 subscribers quite soon after launch.

Now, it's not yet backed by YouTube's recommendation system. I'm going to get onto what I think they didn't do right for YouTube because I think that you can talk about it as a YouTube video rather than TV show. So what they'd be looking at is, are the Vucant's going to continue to grow? Does it have some sort of tailor's content? Do clips start appearing in recommends? I think that, as with all these things, and this is such a different medium and obviously lots of things, so much from Goldhanger goes on all the time, goes on to YouTube, they learn, they refine all the time.

This is what people who make things for YouTube do is they learn. It is, unlike television, the feedback in this sort of world is almost immediate. And for a good producer, and we'll go on to you, the producer that this is, Holly's husband, Dan, for a good producer, that's absolute gold dust. Because they can just change as they're, you know, because they see what viewers respond to. almost in real time. I agree. And in this case, the things that they didn't get right from talking to various YouTube experts

is the thumbnails wrong. The headlines and the production design are much more like something off TV. You know, the sort of things that you, you know, Stanley Coutche is coming around. That's the sort of thing you might have put for an item on this morning. If you don't have an unbelievably hooky

and good 30 seconds at the start, people will just drop off YouTube. 30 seconds is the absolute key. So if you have a rambling thing which they had, like all Stanley teachers come on, I get that it was good for her in some ways to set out the show like that. They will have to drop that because that doesn't work. You have to have an unbelievably hot first 30 seconds and that hooks people in. Otherwise, you can get away with it on TV, but you can't elsewhere.

And if they don't have that hooky thing and they don't keep people, then the YouTube algorithm will not push it. So they have to get that right. That will have to change. Which it will, by the way, because again, it's... people on YouTube do. They realize very quickly where they're going wrong because they get so much data and then they change it. And then they do it right. So why is she doing it is the next question, which I think is far and away the most interesting one. So Hollywood Willoughby is not someone

whose career is on the side. Hollywood Woulda Bee wants to work on Terrestrial TV. She can go into any office tomorrow and get a job on terrestrial TV. That is absolutely open to her in every way. And her husband, Dan Baldwin, he's making this with his team, Hungry Bear. He is making loads of things on Terrestrial TV at the moment as well. So why does Holly Woodobey launch a YouTube show when, as you say, you know, you might get 40, 50,000 viewers in a day as opposed to 600,000 viewers, you know, which feels a very different thing. Well, I mean, the reason that she does it is because it has a brand behind it, which is, as I say, Voie. There's plenty of other brands who are investing in these areas. We talked about micro-influencers last week, and brands are

getting incredibly proactive about this sort of thing. And the argument might be. be, oh my God, she's doing it for a brand. It's all sponsored. It's all this, the other. Anyone who's ever worked for ITV and Channel 4 have been working for the advertisers for the entire history of those channels. It's just the advertisers throw all of their money at various little slots. That is then apportioned out. That money then goes to ITV. That money then goes down to the talent and to the program makers. There's an awful lot of fat in between. Say Voie want to make a 30 second advert and put it on Channel 4. They can. can buy, you know, four hours worth of airtime. They can stipulate roughly where they want it to

be, but they don't get the exact thing of where they wanted to be. That money goes into ITV via about four different middlemen and middle women. That money then goes back down to the production company, again, via lots of different people. In this instant, Dan Baldwin, Hollywood, we can sit across the table from Voie. Voie can say, this is our marketing spend. They can say, this is what we can make for you. Let's make this show together. So they're working for advertisers, but they've cut out every single middleman in that process. You own your own value. You own your own value.

You own your own IP. So everything she creates belongs to her or belongs to the production company as well. So you own everything. You're getting paid directly. We are in a world now where brands are savvy enough that they do not compromise the content with their brand. I remember when this all started 20, 25 years ago. And people say, you can't make shows made by Pepsi because it will just be all about

how great Pepsi is. I mean, that's a long, long time ago, that attitude. You know, brands, a brand like Voie understands that the only way they get any benefit from this relationship is if the show is successful. And the only way the show is successful is if Holly is allowed to be herself and that people come into that. And it appeals to them. So for the brand, it really, really works. It's a much cheaper way of advertising because they are absolutely laser focused. They know that Holly has got the exact audience they're looking for.

They absolutely understand that. So they're happy to go all in on Holly rather than spread their money across different demographics. Holly understands where the money is coming from and understands that she's getting all of it and the production team team do as well. And if it grows, it grows. They make plenty of money. If it doesn't grow, we move on. But you can be yourself. You can make programs in a way that you haven't done before.

You don't have to sit across the table from a commissioner. Now, the flip side of this, by the way, is there's still plenty of money in terrestrial TV. So this is not, you know, everything is going to be YouTube now. If you look at this morning, that's still a very profitable television show. And Ben Shepard and Kat Dealey, who do that. making plenty of money and doing a brilliant job and the audience are enjoying it and advertisers, you know, get a lot of benefit from advertising in this morning. So these two things are coexisting at the moment. But if you are talent like Holly who knows that people will come to

the thing that she does, I don't know why you wouldn't do this. Two, like really, really obvious examples. Well, Gordon Ramsey, who still does a lot of terrestrial TV, but his terrestrial earnings are dwarfed by his earnings from YouTube and Insta and TikTok. I mean, he, a very, very a long time ago, worked out this is where he wanted to be. An even better example, Pierce Morgan, but Pierce Morgan does nothing on television and makes an absolute fortune because he understands that if you can talk directly

to a particular audience, your ad rates are enormous, the engagement you get is enormous, the feedback you get is enormous, and it's a really, really seductive thing for a piece of TV talent to do. And it employs a crew in a way that, like, an individual YouTuber doesn't,

so it's not terrible for the industry. There's people being employed there on, you know, proper contracts being paid properly. And it is going to be the first of many. But it's across media, and it's, apart from big stars doing it, there's so many people. If you look at, you know, journalists are now starting to think, well, I only need a certain amount of paid subscribers before I get up to what my salary was. So I'm just going to go off and do this myself.

And then I will stand or fall on me. And there is so many, the whole of the creator economy is eating media as we know it in lots of, in lots of ways. And I think that so many people will go off and do these things. But she is so in the heart of mainstream. And the interesting thing about it, I've looked a little bit deeper into the numbers for the first week. And one of the interesting things is the 35 to 55 audience is really, really, really significant.

And that was an audience we didn't think watched YouTube. And again, because we're thinking about what things were like 15 years ago, but that is an audience who has grown up with watching YouTube. They are watching it 50% of them on their televisions. So you have got an audience who, who absolutely are bang in the middle of the ITV daytime demographic, who are now very, very comfortable not only with watching YouTube and finding content on YouTube,

but watching it on their big television in their living room at a time that they want to. And that's incredibly significant. I want to say a little bit of something about the type of criticism that I think particularly women who do this kind of thing get. There's a continuum between lots of this stuff and people who say, no one likes her. It's like, okay, you cannot. front one of those shows and no one likes it. It's like people say, oh my God, everyone hates

Claudia's hair. It's ridiculous. It's like, okay, she's got a deal with the shampoo poo brand. I think that's because they know a bit more about whether people actually like her hair. I'm sorry, I have to stand up for women in this particular case. People really like her, okay? Not everyone really likes her, and it may be that you don't really like her, but people in general really like her, which is why she's had such an unbelievable, successful frontline career. Yeah, and why a massive company like Voie, who are very, very, very. targeted and what they do. Again, this is literally the perfect person for us. I mean, you should be so lucky to be the perfect person for a company with massive marketing spend. You know,

it's because you're trusted by a large demographic and you're not trusted by a large demographic for no reason. You know, she's built that over years and years and years. And the people out there who just, you know, will go, I don't know anyone who watches that program. I don't know anyone who likes her. You think, what's not for you. That's you. That's you. That's you. You have to just look at, look at what's happening out there. You know, and some, I mean, the reviews, There was one amazing, you shouldn't be allowed to review TV. If you don't know about TV, there's one brilliant. Because, oh my God, the worst bit was...

They should have to apply to you to be allowed to review TV. They had run out of steam, you could tell. And so they had this emergency draw with British food on it. So, you know, she bought out, you know, Freibentos pie, and you think, oh, my God, how desperate are you? You think, no, that's an item. Yeah. That is an item on the show.

You've got one of the great Epicureans of the world, Stanley Tucci on, and so you make sure you've got a Rusler's Burger and you talk to him about. I mean, that's just an item on a television show. Always has been, always will be. That is not then going, oh my God, we've run out of stuff. Oh, do you remember the emergency draw? Holly, there's the emergency drawer. That was the program.

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how they change up each week. I will definitely watch to see how they adapt because that's the mark of anyone who's successful on YouTube. It's just constantly feeding about what you learned last time out, really. And I think that's the thing that she will, that's the difficulty of it. There is something about making terrestrial TV that actually is sort of, you have a huge amount of support all of the time.

You get holidays off. You know, you get people who come in on Friday and do the gig for you, all of that kind of stuff, lunches and people take you out and stuff. And you don't get that here. What you're going to get here is the more work you put in, the more money you will make if it works well,

which is a really, really, really great thing. But after a few years, you might just think, God, I'm really, really knackard. I wouldn't mind just something a little bit more cushy. This, you have to be a self-starter. You really have to be in it. And you're competing against these kids.

kids who are sort of 20-21 in their first job who were just doing this nonstop and I absolutely understand how to do it. So it is very, very, very possible that this show will fail, but only because all shows fail. Not because it's Holly, not because it's YouTube. This is where things are going to go next. This is what everybody wants to do. And if a brand wants to spend their money and wants to reach a certain demographic, you can see the sense in them being laser-focused on somebody who brings all of those people in at once rather than diffusing it through a terrestrial channel

and just saying, well, let's slightly, be slightly scattershot. They're not scattershot. They're not scattershot. The people that channel 4 and ITVE and 5 are very, very good. But it is more diffused and it is harder to measure what it is that your brand is doing. One of the interesting things here, of course,

is that brands are very good at when all the data comes in of working out who to back. And on this one, and this is going to happen more and more and more. They're in at the very, very beginning. Yeah. They're in before. any view counts. They're in before there's any feedback.

You know, they're absolutely in at the start of this and they're trusting the production company and they're trusting Holly. And it's just, you know, I just find it, I find it very, very interesting. I just... I want to say one more thing actually as well because I think what happened to her

was so unbelievably awful. The story of what happened. This guy who plotted to kidnap, rape and kill her and was imprisoned, I literally don't know how she's gone back out and done all right. I think she's absolutely, you know, and every, people have no idea the rubbish that people have to deal with, but that is an extreme example. I mean, every woman in the public eye, I've got some of my own, but you can't even talk about it because it might make them angry or they believe you're talking directly to them.

But I think it's absolutely amazing that she has just got up and started a completely new thing. I think it's such a testament to a spirit that, I mean, you know, not to be too trite, we'll carry her through, thinking, okay, I'll lean in, I'll change, I'll do whatever is necessary. I think I mean she's I think she's a real harrow and I'll do it with my family and I'll do it with the people that I trust one of the reviews said it's not even her own kitchen and you're like come on read the room really come on I mean really let's have a little think about it so I think it's listen it's I think there's I think there's job's out there for the thing I look talent is all well and good and Holly will always make money wherever she wants to be it employed a lot of people that one by that's the thing I want people in the gallery I want lighting directors I want all that I want these people still to be employed and I think if we can start making shows a bit like this and this is success It's good news for the TV industry and as I say this is not YouTube versus ITV because ITV is you know You can still make money on these things but it but it's it's a direction of travel You know equally the BBC this week as we know they're having to cut down on their content spend and they canceled a few shows so they canceled celebrity Mastermind which I sort of get again which is lovely to watch but we don't really need it

They canceled blankety blank which again it's a bit of fun but we don't really need it. They cancelled live at the Apollo which is an interesting one because when that came out it was the sort of saviour of stand-up. So I've talked to loads of comics this week about what are people thinking and they're all going and they're all kind of going I mean yeah I mean I get it I mean stand-up it really really has worked out how to use Instagram and TikTok and YouTube you know it's really really worked it out and and to have this show. No one suggesting stands up on its needs any longer. Yeah and it's had this great history and it's been brilliant it's launched an awful a lot of people, but it's even the comics are kind of, and actually I think a lot of the production

companies are kind of going, I think that's probably fair enough. I think if the BBC has got license fee money, there might be better places to put it. So I think terrestrial TV is really, really working out how to cut its cloth to keep competing with these other channels, but it's fascinating that Holly, with the demographic that she has, which is not a younger demographic, is understanding that YouTube is a place that they are now going as well. And that is a change that's never going to stop. We're going to get more and more and more YouTube natives, and we'll see more and more of this stuff, I think.

And equally, if you're Dan Baldwin, I mean, he's Holly's husband, but it's just interestingly instructive in here, if he was the producer, whatever, I'd talk about it. You know, Hungry Bear, who he runs, you know, they do gladiators, they do all sorts of different shows. So, you know, he understands there's still plenty of money to be made in terrestrial television. They still makes very, very good terrestrial television. But he sort of understands that also he's a,

content creating, his company makes content, and they can do that for BBC One or ITB or Channel 4, but they can be doing it by themselves. And the one thing you learn very, very early on as a producer, is the different returns you get from different channels, which channels will keep your rights, like Netflix will keep your rights. BBC, you're obviously getting a lot less money. Anyway, there's all sorts of different commercial deals you do with different channels, and that really affects your back end and what you're making next year, and in three years, and five years. And the thing about YouTube for almost all production companies, if you can get a decent brand on board as well,

is the back end position can be incredible. You know, it gives you a creative freedom because no one's telling you what to do, because I'll tell you now a brand will tell you less what to do than a channel will do, and you get to keep that IP, and you get to exploit it. And there's all sorts of paid content in there,

and there's all sorts of brands. Yeah, there was a lot. Yeah, and you kind of think, well, I mean, listen, I guess that's okay. I mean, not on that platform. You can't be fussing about that. I mean, that is the platform. Yeah, I think exactly that.

And you can, you know, you can earn there's all sorts of commercial opportunities you can get off the back of it, which you can't, which you either have to share with the channel or on the BBC you can't have at all. So it makes absolute sense for producers. It makes absolute sense for presenters. It looks like it makes sense for viewers. But I don't think it's the death of television. But I just think these two things are going to coincide for a long while to come. And that's sort of borne out actually by the offcom report that came out this week. The big headline of was, oh, more people now have Netflix as their default.

than the BBC, I think, is 25% to 24%. I think my television, which is an LG, I think automatically defaults to Netflix. So I don't know about those numbers. You know my thoughts. I just think DCMS should put a button on the remote. Correct. Just get a button on the remote.

Put I player on the remote. I'm just going to keep saying this. Put eye on the remote. Yeah. No one's going to mind that. You're not going to get in trouble for doing that. Yeah. That's an easy win for Andy Burnham at time of recording.

But then you look at the top 10 most watch shows in the UK in the first half of the year and eight of them are terrestrial. Number one, of course, is traitors. Night manager is number two. Number three is traitors uncloked. So I think that has to count with traitors. I'm really sorry.

Listen, it's lovely to have a visualised podcast up there. But it is still, you know, I don't think it should. I think it's standalone and I think it should be allowed to be out of its effort. Brilliant. I absolutely get it. Small Profits is up there, which is really lovely.

I mean, how cool? Yeah. There's only two Netflix shows on the list, one of which is stranger things, unsurprising. The other one is runaway the Harlan Coben show. That's there in the top ten. The Ingrid is in. She is in.

Yeah, she is in. But then actually you look slightly further down that top ten, and you see there's the BBC entries there. You've got Call the Midwife, Silent Witness, and Death in Paradise. And there you go, and they all skew slightly older. Yeah. That is the interesting thing. They all skew slightly older.

But those are the biggest shows, and it's incredible how well. the BBC does on that. So this idea that people have got Netflix is the default, absolutely it's a thing, but again, the strength of terrestrial TV, I think, is still shining through. You can make lots of numbers say different things depending on which way you're doing your report.

Anyone who listens to this show regularly knows roughly the direction of travel. Yes. But we're not going there super fast. No. That's the good news. We've got a few years left yet. Us oldies. Shall we go to some adverts? Let's. This episode is brought to you.

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Welcome back everybody. Now, when we talked about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey and Elon Musk having spent like seven months wetting his pants about it, one of the things we did say was, why don't you make your own version then? If you've really so upset about it, why did we open our mouth?

Well, yeah. Now, he's had two ideas in the last week. He's an ideas man above all. The first one was to give $100 million to Mel Gibson, which reminds me I've got to check in on the resurrection of the Christ. That's gone very quiet, hasn't it? Remember they started filming in Italy? I need to check in on that.

Okay. To give Mel Gibson $100 million to make a historically accurate odyssey. He's now pulled back from that idea, I think. I think, and in the original Aramaic, right, was the idea. I think that was the idea. He now wants to grok. His AI, he wants GROC to make a version. I trust GROC.

Of it. Yeah. I mean, he's very, very angry about Matt Damon in that role for some reason. I don't know why, because for me, okay, you know I loved it. And I did say right on the day, I completely loved it. But for the movie to be, which I think it is somewhat about, you know, American dads who cry on their cars on the way home from work. Yes.

Okay. It has to be Matt Damon. Of course it should be. It can only be Matt Damon. He's that he's every American dad, right? He's in the Chevy Tahoe on the way back. I don't know why he's crying. We don't know why.

That's what the film's about. Yeah. So, but anyway, he said, I want to go make my own. And he's going to use, he wants to, he thinks it will be somehow more authentic in some way. We know that he fundamentally misunderstands art and interpretation and all of that. But we honestly can't relitigate that because it's just too stupid. He also slightly seems to think that the Odyssey is a true story. Yeah.

But, you know what I mean? He says it has to be historically accurate. You think, sorry to what? Sorry to what? Well, you know when the gods walked on the earth? Yeah. I mean, I can see why he'd think that that was true. But yeah, he definitely sees,

and he doesn't seem to realise that almost the entire history of Western literature as people, his people retelling the Odyssey, and that's sort of the point in it. He doesn't understand. He does understand. He does understand. Why don't you actually even know if he does properly that? Can I say, by the way, it'd be interesting.

I wonder if A, he's watched the Odyssey, or B, if he's read it. You know what? I absolutely wouldn't put it past him not to have watched the movie. He's got a very close notes take on. on everything. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, not space rockets and stuff, but there is nonetheless an interesting story here, which we are going to get into now, which is, okay, to get into the numbers,

the Odyssey cost $250 million to make. I have seen people say $125 million in marketing. Personally, I think they have spent more on marketing. It's universal. And what is interesting is that obviously that is right at the very top end of anything that you'll spend in Hollywood today. And what is interesting is that I think we will see multiple versions of the same story as people think, oh, why can't I just, especially on this public domain stuff, which is obviously the Odyssey has been out of copyright for some time. It's interesting.

By the way, that happened. People, they made lots of multiple things. I've said this on this podcast before, but it's really interesting. Warner Brothers made. Lockbusters, right? Yeah. Well, yeah, but also people going over and over the same thing until they are light on the version that they like. And Warner Brothers made three versions of the Maltese Falken between 1931 and 1941,

and the 41 version is the Humphi Pogart one. It's like, oh, I see. That's what we were going for. I'm not saying that you're going to get your perfect version of The Odyssey. But it's interesting what Elon Musk, someone like Elon Musk can do. Obviously, GROC has bazillions of users. He has a distribution platform. Marketing is very, very expensive, but it's not if you own...

a platform. And what I think is quite interesting is, do people even want the whole movie or do they actually just want, this is a bit like what we were talking about during the World Cup. Do they really want to watch 90 minutes of football anymore? I hate to say it, but what they really want is a clip from the Odyssey, the Nolan version, and then next to it, you know, here's how it should have been. I honestly think that that's what a lot of people want. People would be much happier.

I'll tell you what no one wants is a three-hour AI version of, The Odyssey. No, I mean, literally, no one in the world wants to watch that. I mean, but I tell who knows that, Elon Musk, right? And everyone knows that. You know, there's, there's, there's, there's an element of, of trolling going on here. He knows exactly that. And he, what he objects to do more than anything is how much publicity the Odyssey is getting and how excited everyone is about it and how often, how many people are calling it. I mean, no one's given it more than him. No one's worth harder. No, but he wants to, he, right, he wants to ride that same thing. If you talk about the Odyssey now, we talk about Elon Musk, he's absolutely that 125 million or more that

Universal has spent on marketing, he has gone, I will have a little bit of that. I will take, I will, I will inhale the fumes of the Odyssey and I will use it once again to, you know, put me at the center of the conversation, which is what it's done. He doesn't give a toss about making a three-hour version of the Odyssey. He's talking about Grock doing it, and it's still costing a hundred million. You go, what's the point of AI then if it's costing a hundred million? The whole point of it is, you know, you can do it cheaply. To your point, so lots of people have said, This is why people have taken them seriously. They said, well, look, he could make that.

And as you say, he doesn't have to worry about distribution or anything because he has this platform, which is X, and he could use that platform to show it. I don't think X is a platform that can sustain a phenomenon. Maybe Twitter could have done 10 years ago. Not anymore. I think the audience for it is too soft. I think the users of it are too soft.

I don't think it's the sort of place that can really build a huge, enthusiasm for anything. I think it can definitely build a huge train that says we hate the Odyssey. Definitely. That's very, very easy to do. They can absolutely monetize rage. I don't think it's the platform, unlike Instagram, unlike TikTok, that can create something and build something that's really sustaining and beautiful and artistic and nourishing.

A three-hour movie for everyone around the world. Every time it has to do a live stream, it falls over. Yeah. So I'm not convinced that it can do that. that. But I do think this whole idea of mock busters and people sort of coming in and doing especially with stuff in the public domain, people coming in and doing their own, people have been talking about, I've seen lots of stuff this week about the sort of the middle bit. There are cheap films, which is fine and that will keep going. And then there are these

incredibly expensive, massive marquee efforts like this, which is, you know, at the very top end of everything. But then in the middle, there's lots of this stuff. And particularly if it's in public domain, if it's Jane Austen or it's Dicketts or whatever it may be, Dracula, those sorts of things. People have always done this in films, but you can see people creating AI versions that just cannibalize some of that or just coat tail on the marketing spend of something that's already out there. That's the key, I think. I think it's just, yeah, it's like a companion piece. It's for the people who don't like this sort of thing, but your version is also out in the cinemas at the same time. That's actually quite an old Hollywood trick.

You know, if you go right back into the past, people were always trying to do spoiler film, or try and piggyback on somebody else's buzz and publicity and whatever. You know, piranus comes out straight after jaws, all that, all that type of stuff. That's exactly what's going to happen because it is this thing of when Universal is spending $125 million on marketing or more, they're not just marketing the Nodan film, they're marketing the idea of The Odyssey. And you look at the book, you know, the books have got, you know, racing up the charts and Emily Wilson's translation is now, you know, right at the top of the charts.

there is an awful lot of eyes on the idea of the Odyssey and if you had decided to do your own half-hour version made entirely by AI or if you're a comedy troupe we've done your own very cheap version of it now would be the time to do it because everyone is talking about the Odyssey everyone wants stuff about the Odyssey and as these barriers to entry get cheaper and cheaper every time there's a Sherlock Holmes movie or a Dracula movie

as you say any of these things that are out of copyright Frankenstein you can just do your own version of that and people are going to do that more and more and more. I don't think Elon Musk is going to be one of them. I think you're absolutely right. I think if they're going to do anything, it would be to take some chunks of the film, do their own version of that,

because that's a much more entertaining watch because you're looking at, you know, like with like. But also, that's all people can handle. They can only watch a three-minute video, as I think we've proved. They can't be doing with a three-hour film. They just want clips that they can compare side-by-side. Yeah, definitely if it's an AI one

and they don't even get to see Matt Damon. I haven't seen that he had a problem with Matt Damon. I know he's got a problem with Elliot Page and the Peter and Yongo. I just think he wants to just clear out the whole lot and start again. He said, do you know what? It's nice to hate a white guy for once he's thinking. He's thinking maybe I do that for once. Yeah, I get it.

But yeah, so listen, whether he will do this or whether he'll probably move on to the next, you know, bright and shiny object that turns up. But I do think he's been very clever at putting himself at the heart of the biggest cultural conversation of the year. I mean, he, you know, is increasing the rage in the world. he's not doing it, you know, he's not making the world a better place by doing it. He's making his life slightly more bearable, maybe, whatever it is he needs when he wakes up in the morning. He is getting from this. But it's, you know, I just don't think that sort of thing is sustaining in a creative economy. I really don't.

So I think he's doomed to failure. Genuinely, I would, you know, if The Odyssey had been maybe in three years' time when the technology had moved on a little bit more, I would be fascinated to see some of the younger filmmakers doing little versions of it, doing little takes on it, you know, that kind of thing. If you love it, you can go home immediately and you can watch 10 different versions and you can watch different people's takes on it and different, you know, that I would love. Did you see we were talking about reviews earlier on for The Holly Thing? Did you see Emily Wilson's review of The Odyssey? It's quite a thing. First of all, it's a brilliant commission.

Whoever just thought, we should get her to review it. I'm happy to quote it now, but if you're going to do it in a recommendation, we can quote it in your recommendations if you'd like. Would you rather do that? Yeah, let's do that. And bear in mind, by the way, that this is Christopher Nolan's favorite adaptation of it as well. And he quotes it in this thing. But it's, yeah, gosh, keep listening for that. Now, shall we finish, if we could, with Jared Lato?

Yeah, it would be remiss not to cover it. And the BBC have done a documentary, directed by Alex McShane and kind of put together by Jessica Sartanair. Four women have accused Jared Laiter on the record of sex. sexual misconduct, ranging from sexual assault, threatened sexual assault, statutory rape to grooming. He says, I'm going to run, well, let's put his denial up at the top. He says, I've never sexually assaulted anyone in my entire life. These claims are absolutely and categorically false.

Little primer on Jared Lito. He started in my so-called life, then he was in Requem for a Dream. He got a best supporting actor for his role in the Dallas Biers Club. He was in the suicide squad. A lot of weird stories appeared during that when he was. sending his castmates rats and things like that. His last two films, I don't think this is a particular coincidence in lots of ways either. Tron Ares and Masters of the Universe have been massive, massive flops.

But he also had one of those rock bands that actors have will insist on. 30 seconds to Mars. Now, we've talked before about it's interesting because these stories have been in the ether for a very long time in 2005. The New York Post ran some stories. sort of hinting at this stuff. And not just in the ether. They have, you know, literally reported.

Yeah, E. Mail ran stories last year. There have been, you could see people, part of what got people James Gunner to trouble was joking about these sorts of things. James Gunn, who runs the DC Universe now for Warner's. And we've talked before about open secrets and why, if something is a so-called open secret, again, I say Jared Lito denies all this stuff. And how hard it is, nonetheless, to get things onto the record. I have to say that in terms of the documentary, the documentary is really well done.

Yeah, it's really good. It's really good. Have a watch of it. It's on IPlayer. Absolute credit to them because it is incredibly hard to get people, women particularly to talk on the record for obvious reasons. They've got four of them on the record, 10 of them spoke. And they've corroborated with friends and family. They've got contemporaneous messages. There's lots and lots of people around it. It's a sort of masterclass in trying to get stuff to air, which is incredibly difficult with this kind of stuff. And I think it's great actually that in lots of cases I think

people think it's not great for the BBC to put their stuff on YouTube in this case it's great to put it on YouTube because it gets maximum possible discovery particularly in the US I know that what people will be asking is you know what happens now because these documentaries come out

and then I have to say I'm quite pessimistic about sometimes what happens with these things because people cannot you know you've got two parts of ways. Either people can get charged with someone, something, or they can't. Again, I would say no one has been charged. These are accusations at the moment. Remember, in terms of the Epstein files, absolutely no one other than the dead person and the woman who is in prison have been charged. And

I don't think they will be, by the way. And the most depressing thing of that for me was seeing just being able to see how some of the most powerful men in the world named, who we all know, talk about women because you can read their emails and they're just carrying on, I guess, running their companies. And we all know because we can see it. And so that's the stuff we can publicly see. And there's still a group of people who would go, no, I think that's where it ends.

I don't think any of those people are taking any of that into their private lives. I think that's, I mean, yes, you've given us absolute solid gold evidence that these people talk that way and these people talk about certain things that happen. I don't believe any of these people actually do the things. It's a weird worldview. if you think none of these people have ever done anything.

It's ridiculous, right? It's ridiculous. I'm not casting any expressions on anyone. But if you know something about somebody, you cannot take them to corks. You don't have the evidence. And we know that how hard it, as you say, if no one in the Epstein files is getting prosecuted, it's hard to prosecute anyone. You can't do that. So what can you do?

All you can do is sort of keep them away from things. All you can do is just not employ them anymore. And it's... But it's a bit about the... I mean, the armies of enablers that all... always shock me, just like how many people are effectively informed about certain types of behaviour that are definitely off colour and just act in that way every day, enabling it and allowing it. And as I say, he denies everything and we'll see where it goes. But as always,

with these things, it's much less likely that any charges will come of it. And also, just to nail the lie that they always say, yeah, but the women are getting something out of it. They're doing this for money. They're doing it. No one's getting money out of accusing Jared Lato or something. No. Of the BBC, let me just tell you. I mean, they're really, really not. They're doing it because it takes incredible bravery to do this stuff. It really, really does. We see it time and time and time again. And it's the same people every time go, oh, yeah, no, there's no evidence. There's no proof. You go, oh, you've said this about every single instance of this. So every single time it hasn't happened, even though we're showing you evidence of the world in which they live.

We're showing you evidence of, you know, clearly you can see that this world exists. Clearly, you can see that there are enablers around people. But every time it's still, no, no, no. I do. I don't believe any of it. Nobody is getting famous from going on a BBC documentary and alleging abuse against Gerard Leto. So you have to ask yourself, why are they doing it? Recommendations. Well, you know what I'm recommending.

I recommend it. First of all, I love the London Review of Books. Love it. This is an absolutely great commission that's been incredibly newsy. And it's brilliant. It's such an amazing magazine, obviously. Emily Wilson, whose translation of The Odyssey, is very influential and big part of Christopher Nolan's.

kind of preparation for the film. They asked her to review it. I'll say this. She at first said, I'm very glad that it's brought the Odyssey back into the public conversation. I bet she is because she sold a lot of books. But she watches the film.

She also says, by the way, that her teenage children enjoyed the film. But this is Emily Wilson's take or a part of it. Nogan's Odyssey lacks many of the elements that make the poem great. It has nothing convincing to say about time, memory, history, war, or the relationship between one warrior's glorious return.

turn and the lives of his family, adversaries, comrades, friends and neighbours. It lacks psychological, emotional, political and ethical depth. Its narrative structure is gimmicky. The writing is abysmal. None of the characters has convincing motivation for their actions or words. There are no sex scenes and all the food looks horrible. Wow. I mean, you love the film.

I mean, she knows everything in the world about The Odyssey. So she is allowed to have her own take on it, for sure. But that's great. Yeah, yeah. Just great. I love that she didn't hold back. Yeah. Rising tide lifts, all boats.

It really does. The recommendation is to watch the film and to read her translation as well. And to read the LRB. There's three, hold on, three recommendations in one. We're really treating people. We'll see everyone for a Q&A on Thursday. Yes. And the bonus episode this week's another World Cup of,

and the World Cup of Boardmen and Show Business. It is an absolute celebration of the Jason State. Samudel Jackson's and Bruce Wallace's of this world. Ross Camp. Ross Kemp is in there. Oh, I knew he would be. Don't worry. I didn't even need to ask.

I'm not going to give away any results. It was really, really good fun. It was really good fun. This is huge. Why isn't this like... Again, I've done that with Bella Hull and Ivo Graham. We're also, we're still recording our history of James Bond, which we are loving, and that will be out soon as well for members.

If you want to be a member, go to the rest of entertainment.com. Otherwise, we will see you all on Thursday. See you on Thursday. Hello everyone. We've got some exciting news to share with the listeners of The Restors Entertainment. We do indeed. We are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third off the regular price. That's right. With the code summer 26, you can head to the Restorsentertainment.com and claim an annual membership with this brilliant discount. So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama behind the scenes stories and industry gossip that have none of the ads and why wouldn't you, it is a no-brainer. Plus you can catch up with all of the archive of our members-only shows. You may have missed.

including Marina's latest series of vibe shift. And we've got lots more of those special series planned. But remember, this deal will only run until the end of August. So don't wait around. Head to the rest is entertainment.com now. If you win a $3,000 a month payday for life, what would you feel free to do? Maybe take a long weekend, every weekend,

or try a bunch of new hobbies. Would you feel free to upgrade and listen ad free? Don't worry, we get it. Every $20 ticket could win you $3,000 a month for life and supports life-saving cancer research at the Princess Margaret. Feel free to buy your payday for life ticket today. Raffle number 155-2194. Please play responsibly.

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