The Rest Is Entertainment - How Not To Become A Meme

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

Which celebrities have the most meme-able faces? Where does breaking the fourth wall come from, and who did it best? Who are the best famous quizzers? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your questions about TV, film and the world of entertainment. The Rest is Entertainment is brought to you by Octopus Energy, Britain's most awarded energy supplier. Lloyds. 250 years on and still backing the nation's aspirations. Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus content, ad-free listening, early access to Q&A episodes, access to our newsletter archive, discounted book prices with our partners at Coles Books, early ticket access to live events, and access to our chat community. Sign up directly at ⁠therestisentertainment.com ⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to ⁠www.goalhanger.com⁠ Video Editor: Imee Marriott & Joey McCarthy Assistant Producer: Imee Marriott Senior Producer: Joey McCarthy Social Producer: Bex Tyrrell Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The rest of entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, they've looked at admin and decided it should behave much more like a game show. When you provide your meter readings, they will give you a spin of a wheel, which allows you to win prizes, allows you to win octo points, which you can spend in the shoptipus. Yeah, it's the gamifying of the boring bits of your admin. Now, listen, you know how much I love Octopus Energy. The prizes, I'm going to say, are not quite up to the standard of the Wheel of Fortune. The biggest ever prize on the Wheel of Fortune.

So over $1 million. What feels more similar is some of the random prizes they'll get on the Wheel of Fortune. They've had ceramic Dalmatians. I saw one where you could win a Gucci calculator. You think, okay, that's two of my favourite things. There was an onyx bin. Yeah, I'm not, again, I'm not dissing the prizes, but I would have probably gone for the Dalmatian. None of these things you have to worry about with octopus energy.

It is simply octopoints to spend in the shoptops. Well, you have to submit your meter reading. and then you get prizes you don't actually have to persuade yourself you want like money off your next bill. You can get a thousand pound off your bit. If you get the top prize, which is 800,000 octa points, thousand pound off your bill, just on the spin of a wheel. Hello and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment, questions and answers edition. I'm Marina. Hi. And I'm Richard Osmond. Hi, everyone. Hello, Richard.

Hey, Marina. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. I'm actually glad that our first question's got something to do with House of Games, because I wanted to know a little bit more about how your last episode felt. Tom Baker. He is careful to say, not the fourth doctor. He's worked for many years with a writer called Tom Baker, whose nickname was Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker. Every time you talk to him, he has to say,

Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker. What do you think about this? Well, this is from Tom Baker, not the fourth doctor, which I think they might be cousins of the others. But also, maybe not even the Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker, who I know. So this is Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker. It's unclear, isn't it? This is Tom Baker, not that Tom Baker.

Yeah, you're going to like this one because it begins, I was watching the snooker world championships on the BBC. There we go, that's all I've been doing. And right in the middle of it, they cut away for, oh my God, Richard Osmond's House of Games. They did. Important as House of Games is, it felt pretty jarring timing, given it was live sport and a fairly unusual drawn-out frame. Got me wondering, how did broadcasters like the BBC actually decide when to pull the plug on live event coverage?

Is it strictly scheduled-driven no matter what's happening, or is there supposed to be some editorial discretion in moments like that? If I have a Venn diagram, it's the World Snooker Championships and House of Games. If there's anything designed to torment you, it's having to choose between those two babies. Yeah, exactly that. So here's what happened. And I've spent a lot of last week having to answer questions about this already, but I'm happy to do it again. So the World Snooker had been on and they have morning session, afternoon session, evening session. The afternoon session starts about one, usually finishes at about five.

So when Wimbledon is on, for example, House of Games is off air, because you know that Wimbledon is always, it plays across 6 o'clock. And, you know, so they keep it on air for the whole time because Wimbledon is giving them enough coverage and the numbers are high enough that they are happy to leave it on. With the Snooker, they can't do that because, as I say, runs from about 1 to 5. And, you know, the rating, the people who watch Snooka love it like me and the coverage on the BBC is absolutely impeccable. but you don't take House of Games off air because nine times out of ten the Snoke was finished. In fact, sometimes it will finish at like four

and they just show, you know, flog it repeats. So on this particular occasion, it's a semi-final and it's a bizarre frame of people have seen it. There was all sorts online about it. It was the longest frame in the history of the World Snoqual Superstaker Championships at the Crucible. Took an hour.

It's like all the reds went over one pocket with the black in front of it. So it was a very unusual frame. We years were against Mark Allen. So we just could have a third circle that Venn diagram, it's like unusual statistical events. Yeah, exactly. It was after the frame finished, Steve Davis said it was a disgrace to snooker, but everyone who watched it loved it. So there we go, because it's unusual. You've never seen anything quite like it before.

So we find ourselves in a situation where suddenly the snooker is going over six o'clock, which it never does, or very, very rarely does. And it's a frame which no one's ever seen before. No one's ever seen anything quite like it before. So the absolute normal thing with the snooker is, and it has been for years and years and years at six o'clock, you go over to House of Games, and the snooker goes on to the Red Button all evening. It's on BBC 4. So every single ball of the entire tournament is on the BBC, it's on IPlayer, or it's on Red Button or it's on the website. Well, lots of different ways to watch it. And so 559, they go, well, for the last 10 years, you've learned how to switch on the iPlayer. So this is now going on the Red Button,

and we're going to House of Games. But this was the biggest rating frame of the whole year before the final. There's 1.4 million people were watching it. And that's a lot of people who don't normally watch Snooker and who didn't know that you can just turn on to the Red Button. And the Red Button wasn't quite working. All this kind of malarkey. So they switched off from the middle of this incredible frame,

or the most boring frame in history, but certainly a lot of people were watching for House of Games. And not just House of Games, but a House of Games repeat. That's the perfect storm we find ourselves in there. If something extraordinary had been having, absolutely they would have put House of Games on the Red Button. But I think their thinking is it's just like a frame in the semi-final. We don't quite know that this is going to go viral. And every single Snoca fan knows where to watch the snooker on the BBC.

So we'll send them off. And even, you know, there's 1.4 million people watching it. Everyone's going, oh, but how can they switch off the highest rating thing? But then House of Games is getting like 1.8 million. So what are you going to do? And people who watch House of Games, and they have that routine would be beyond furious if you took it off. And in fact, lots of people who were watching the BBC on the red button

were furious because the red button stayed on the snooker and they missed House of Games. So, you know, I was looking at one of the House of Games fans on Facebook, and they were losing their minds about it. So it's one of those things. Ordinarily, if you know as a channel, if you do have something like Wimbledon and you know roughly, you know how much content you're going to have, it's very, very easy. You just, you know, you take pointless off,

you take house of games off, you take those regular shows off. If it's the snooker, as someone was saying, they should just turn BBC 2 onto the snooker channel for two weeks. Oh, that'll go down well. I mean, wouldn't it just? Something like the snooker, it just doesn't fill enough hours and it doesn't get enough viewers that you can just move everything out of the way. It was a tough call that one.

For you, for your two tribes, that's hard. Yeah, yeah. For me, it was particularly tough. But honestly, I was watching on the red button anyway, so it didn't, I just kept watching the snooker, because that's where you watch the snooker, because you get to see all of it, and you can switch between the tables and all of that stuff. So I think that, like, snooker fans were okay with it, but for people who were just going, oh my God, what is this crazy 100 minute long frame?

They were furious that it was taken off for a repeat of a game show, which I get, but it's nothing to do with me. Well, you said, all of my answers said, nothing to do with me. Yeah, and yeah, I don't even do the show anymore, so. Speaking of which, can I ask you, what was the last episode like? Was it? Oh, yeah. I went up to Manchester last week and did, yeah, the last ever episode. We brought back people who had been champions

and then had won champion of champions. So we did our first ever champion of champion of champions. Oh, wonderful. Which is fun. And people like, Miles Jop was on it. A lot of people who I knew I was going to have a laugh with. It was really, yeah, it was lovely. And it was emotional.

I love that crew so much. It was nice to be able to say thank you to all of them. And also the amazing producers there know me well enough not to bring any surprises on me. They knew I would just want a good, solid week of quizzing. How many years has it been? Nine years. Yeah, like 850 episodes, something like that.

It was lovely. And then I got to watch Michael hosting as well. And just seeing the same crew and that same amazing team, just carrying on that show, which hopefully will go on forever and ever and ever. Yeah, it was really, really lovely. I loved it. And I couldn't have had a better last week. So I was absolutely thrilled.

And that'll air sometime later this year? September, I would have thought. Yeah, I would have thought mid-September, something like that. It would be my last week and then into Michael's first week. We did a little skit as well for post-credits, just like a handover. It was just a little bit of business. Again, it's only a quiz show. So I wanted to mark it, but, you know, it's not like a new pope.

It's a big thing. A question for you, Marina, from Emily Cooper. Emily says, how should an actor react when they're getting memed on the internet? Should they lean in, brackets Will Smith, say they hate them, brackets, Demi Lovato, or pretend they don't have access to the internet, brackets, Killian Murphy. Yeah, the internet's boyfriend, who always just says, you know, I don't have a personal email. He doesn't have a personal email. How does he get buy things from the shops?

That's the only reason you'd have one. Anyway. Do you need a personal email to buy things from the shops? Well, you can't get your agents. do it. I'm just going on Amazon to get something. I suppose you need an email, you need an email address. Yes, I'm sorry.

Quite annoying if you're eating. But you don't have to answer an email. You don't have to sort of... No, but you just need to type one in, don't you, all the time? You don't have to say to Sainsbury's. Re my order. I hope everything is going well, and they replied, Killian.

Yeah, just packing it now. I just get my agents to do that anyway already. Good idea. It's just somewhere I already am in a place. Yes, the actor memes, we all know them. Actually, even at the Oscars this year, Conan O'Brien tried to get them to make one. I did think that was a bit like, okay, is it 2016? But I'm trying to get Leonardo DiCaprio, who's very often memed, because he's got that, how would I describe, a subtle awkwardness and

rhineness, a kind of small expression. And where someone like Jennifer Lawrence is like, it's all up there on the screen. It's a, you know, she's very relatable kind of chaos or big expressions. Meryl Streep, very theatrical. She's got lots of good reactions. Ryan Gosling's got a specific thing. They're kind of, he's very good at like just the eyebrow. raise or the imperceptible stuff. And for me, you know, Ben Affleck, what am I doing? What are we all doing? There's a sort of despair in the Affleck. Yeah, I've been told, I mean, I was talking to someone this week, actually, completely by coincidence. And they were saying that actors are being taught about, like, meme face. You know, don't have resting meme face. Oh, my God. You need

resting natural face. We do know this, because you know that when you are just in the audience at any award show, any reaction could end up just being clipped forever. But I'm at the Bifters on Sunday. Yeah, we'll just have resting natural face. Listen, I'm going to be losing my 20th award in a row for us again. So I will be, I'm not going to have, my resting face is not going to be impressed. Okay, well, you could become a meme. When we were talking the other week about select committee hearings and things like that, it's very difficult, you know, to have to constantly be on and not be making any kind of face. I mean, I personally definitely couldn't do it. How should they handle them? I would say, unless it's bad, be grateful is my short answer to this. You have said something, a moment. emotionally readable that speaks to our culture and speaks to our times. Really? I mean, you know, this is why there's the reason I'm seeing a lot of Ben Affleck, like leaning against the door with a cigarette in his hand with his eyes shut looking absolutely despairing. I mean, you've said something that speaks to the times. And also, in an always-on culture, you're not even have to go out

there and work. It's just constantly getting circulated. I was a shame you're not monetising it, but... It's a shame, but you're staying in the conversation and there's a trickle down for sure. I would say to be glad. Obviously, unless it's really bad and you're doing something that's just, oh my God, why did I do that? And forever afterwards it's being used. In general, though, these things are very easily emotionally readable and they're relatable. Otherwise, we wouldn't keep using them as proxy for our own reactions to things. And that's an actor's job? Yeah. And they have become a proxy. You couldn't have explained this to someone 20 years ago. You just couldn't have explained it. But now we use these to put our own emotions out in the world.

So I would say it's great and lean in. Let me go for a little break. Let's go for a break. This episode is brought to you by Lloyds, who you can rely on to keep life running smoothly. Now, you know what isn't celebrated enough? Is the behind-the-scenes work that makes successful entertainment seem so smooth?

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we're all just one big, happy family, I always think, yeah, and you're the children. And the people who are, like, running around are actually always the youngest people on set because runners are always really young. It's an absolute first job in the business. And the other key thing is, if the runners are good,

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And that's based on Lloyd's internal customer data from March 2026, but we just want to say thank you to all the runners and thank you to Lloyds. This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Hear that? That's your next obsession. Every coffee, a new world. Every sip, a new taste. This is the new Nespresso. One touch, endless possibilities.

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From Andrew Fletcher. He says, I'm sure more and more films now feature cameos heavily, brackets, devil wears Prada 2. What's the logistical challenge of achieving things like this? Now, we thought because Devil Wears Prada 2 is out right now and doing enormous business and does feature celebrity cameos, we asked your question, Andrew, to the director of the Devil Wes Prada 2, David Frankles. Well, Andrew, the logistical challenge of having all these cameos is scheduling them. You know, just getting everybody to show up on time.

You know, we were lucky enough that so many people wanted to be a part of the movie. And, you know, we actually couldn't accommodate everybody who wanted to be in. But, yeah, just finding and finding the right spot. And, you know, and then, of course, a lot of them had never been in a movie before. So, you know, Donatella Versace didn't understand that you don't just shoot it once and then go to lunch. that there's more than one shot and you have to do it over and over. So, you know, there's different challenges with each one, but mostly scheduling. That's so interesting.

Funny enough, from Tina Brown on her substack this week, she is in a cameo in this movie. And out in the Hamptons or something where Miranda Priestley obviously has a house, the Merrill Street character, there's a lunch taking place and Tina Brown's at it and Karoswisher, who's, you know, another American kind of commentator. There's lots of people. And Tina Brown describes the day. And it's really like, we all get picked up at four.

We're really excited because we're being the devil worse part. They've got to sit around. It gets very, very hot by about 11 o'clock. They're sitting around this lunch table. They're having some kind of lobster dish. They're obviously not allowed to have it. But they definitely wouldn't want to eat it after a certain number of hours because it's got very, very hot.

And it goes on. I think they finally get out of it at 8 p.m. So that was quite a long lunch. not in the old-fashioned sense. So I definitely think that managing all of those ones are quite difficult. And especially the ones I've seen, there's a Rory Macaroy, again, why's Rory Macaure in it? But anyway, in a crowd scene. And I thought, that will have taken a wife.

Rory Macawey's in a crowd scene. A party, you know, a party. But a party scene, as we know, can take a really long time to do because people are doing the wrong thing in the background. It feels like a grand idea doing a cameo, but it's always. I would say awful. People talk about herding high-end cats, but all of these cats have got, I mean, like all cats, really, a number of views about their own status. I'm Donna Tla Versacei. I wonder how many times they told us they have to say, yeah, we're just going to do it one more time, actually. No, now we're doing this coverage or that

coverage. Is it my coverage? It always sounds like fun, but films take forever. I mean, and not because people are lazy or stupid. They just, it's one of those things that just takes forever. But Rory McElroy is also in Happy Game World too, so he already knew. I mean, that's more understandable why he is in Happy Game World. I know why he's going on having him in the devil's going on more too. I was very happy to see him in the devil's world's prodigy, but he wouldn't have been my first picket for an automatic cameo? Yeah, that feels very peculiar.

But, you know, it's good for the brand. But yeah, and ego things. I love that David Frankles was saying that they couldn't accommodate everyone. So you're thinking, oh, there's some people. I've read of people having theirs cut. I've read some, I don't know whether this is true, that Sidney Sweeney's was cut. But that's the thing as well, it doesn't matter who they are. If it's not working for the movie, it's nothing to do with a person.

in the cameo, it's just the flow of the film and the, you know, the duration, and you have to cut, you know, imagine if you have to cut the scene that Tina Brown and everyone's in. That's an awful lot of people who... Well, Tina Brown said she couldn't deliver a line. She thought she could, and then she says, I'm like, I end up a mute guest at this party. Because even though one of the great talkers, because once she has to say the thing, she said it just sounds like sort of fake words and blah. It's impossible.

That's why, you know, you can't ever... I do lots of self-tapes with Ingrid, and until you do it, you think, oh, I can't act. I have no way of doing this. I have no way of sounding natural. I cannot do it. And, you know, God bless Roy McElroy from the Happy Gilmore movie. It was sort of the same. And then you get someone in Happy Gilmore, which had so many cameos. Bad Bunny, unbelievable. Yeah. He's in court stealing, and he actually plays a proper role. I think we'll see him out more and more. He's very good.

John Daly was amazing in Happy Gilmore, too. I mean, it was just really, really good. A showman. Yeah. But, yeah, it's until you turn up for a cameo and are given a line, you will find out very quickly if you can act or not, and the answer is almost certainly you can't. Question from Tom Rose for you, Marina.

Your trope series, we need to be a trope series, but yeah, we've covered Mcuffins, Chekhov's guns, and red shirts. I would like to ask about breaking the fourth wall. Presumably, this comes from theatre, but who was the first to do this on television, and what are your favourite examples? Oh, yes, this is, it definitely comes from theatre. If you imagine a theatre stage and with a Pristina March as a sort of three-sided box

and then the bit that you're looking through, that wall is the fourth wall just to sort of, if I'm sure anyone doesn't know what this is, but the characters don't acknowledge the artifice that there's an audience there or whatever. It's almost like, you know, someone's just taking the lid off and we're having a look into their world. And it's the same, in TV, it's when people don't look into the camera, that the camera is effectively the fourth wall in television because we're roving everywhere.

Yeah, and when they do directly look into the camera and talk to you, they're talking to you, the audience, they're acknowledging that we're a sort of an affixion, but we are and we aren't, and whatever. You're right, it's been happening in theatre forever, but actually, interestingly, we didn't even sit, no one thought, in ancient Greek drama, no one thought of it as a fourth wall,

because it was so normal for them to talk to the audience and whatever. It's only actually in the late 19th century when naturalism as an idea comes in and people start talking about a box set, you know, and a room and a fourth wall. Before then, in Shakespeare, obviously everyone's talking to the audience. There are constants of soliloquies

and addressing of the audiences and choruses and prologs and epilogues and all of that stuff. It's only actually at the end of the 19th century that becomes a thing. Even in early cinema, it starts to happen and people talk to the audience, which is kind of radical. But your questions about TV, I had a look into this.

There are some animations where it sort of happens, but I don't think we account animations as what you're asking. about. The George Burns and Gracie Allen show, they were a married couple, and they were both comedians, and they had a sitcom about being married in the 50s. So that would have been in the 50s. And then it was a big thing. George Burns himself, and you can see lots of these old episodes on YouTube, and you might have seen them, if you've ever been in America, they used to rerun this all the time, certainly, I think, as recently as the 90s, but it does seem very old now.

It's black and white and whatever. George Burns used to kind of say, stand off stage, it was all filmed in live studio, he would also narrate to the camera. And by the end, he was sort of watching it on TV, which was very, very meta. It's a kind of meta commentary because you're addressing the audience directly. Actually, there are funny, there's interesting examples, which I really revere David Letterman. I think he's extraordinary and extraordinary broadcaster. And when he, before he became Letterman of late night, he had a daytime show. And there was a time where once it was going so badly, you know, they were rating so badly.

knew they were going to get cancelled. And he bought on TV onto set and put on what was on the other channel, what was on one of their rivals, and started just deconstructing it and laughing about it. So that's an example. I mean, although you couldn't say that because that's not a fiction and he was a direct, but there's a sort of meta to that. Monty Python obviously did it a lot. These days it's almost always done as comedy. Miranda. Miranda. Exceptions to that are things like House of Cards where, but again, that was the US one where Kevin Spacey, as Frank Underwood, would address the camera.

But that was based on the British House of Cards. And it was very, that was very theatrical. It's brilliantly done. It's brilliantly done, but something very theatrical about it. So I'm going to say some of my favourites in no particular order, since luckily you didn't ask for that. Ferris Bueller, I love Ferris Bueller and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I love the way he addresses the camera,

because what it does there is invite the audience into a kind of conspiracy of naughtiness and fun, and you're kind of bunking off with him off school. And you just felt like it's about feeling part of the gang. I love that. I love when Woody Allen does it in Annie Hall as Alvy's singer. He said, you know, I really felt like my character was so epitomized the problems of the audiences that I wanted to speak to the audience directly. So I love, it's one of my favorite films. This is going to feel like a period piece because now everything's sponsored and whatever. But Wayne's World, when they did all the sponsorship and talked to the camera, Mike Myers and Dana Carvey in that movie,

it felt so radical and so new and so like, oh my God, I can't believe they're acknowledging this thing. And it was a real sort of, again, it's always postmodern and meta. I will actually say that my number one is Phoebe Wallerbridge in Fleabag because, first of all,

you knew it grew out of a theatrical show and that's why it really works. But also, it was unfashionable. Doing this, okay, yes, it was very cool when Mike Myers does it in Wayne's world, but that was ages ago, and that was something sort of, as I say, quite radical. But this was unfashionable, and it just because no one really did it, it was stagey, and yet it pulled everyone into it.

She became someone who epitomized so many women, particularly their issues, their experience of life, and it was so utterly involving. And it was very, very, although, as I say, it's been going on for genuinely millennia, it somehow felt completely fresh and radical new, and also kept its roots in the stage show. out of which it was born. Yeah, I mean, I would have said if I had a number one, but you mentioned it already, Francis Urquette in House of Cars,

because you hit the ground running in that show, and because it feels very Shakespearean, it feels acceptable that someone is, you know, delivering a little prologue, and then every now and again, he just look absolutely down the lens and say something to explain what just happened. So arch, and you felt you were being let into that archness.

But again, comes from a book, and books have always done it. I mean, reader, I married him, that's the perfect example of breaking the fourth wall. And I've read lots of books. There's certainly sort of Victorian and earlier novels that someone is clearly writing a novel. And they say, I'm writing a novel. Here is our story, dear reader.

And I love that sort of thing. I think that I would love to write. Well, we like plays within plays. Yeah, plays with plays. I mean, anything like that that acknowledges the artifice but somehow still makes it mean so much, I'm really into it. Well, because, you know, with a novel, it really makes sense. because, you know, you are sort of, you know, if you're, whoever you are, or whoever, you are recounting a tale that happens to some people?

And are you allowed to say, here is the tale that happened, I am Charles Dickens. And, yeah, I would, I wouldn't say I'm Charles Dickens if I did it, but I would love to write a book that starts with sort of acknowledging that you're about to tell people a story. Yes. That'd be loads of fun. This can only be for you, Richard. Annie Norris would like to know.

She says, I feel this is a question, only Richard can answer rightly. Who is the best celebrity quiz? I mean, it's a question that would have seemed weird a few years ago because what does that even mean? But now there is a circuit on television, which is pointless celebrities, RIP, House of Games, The Chase, tipping point. lucky stars, celebrity mastermind. It attracts all sorts of celebrities onto it, but does also attract celebrity quizzes, which are celebrities who love to quiz,

and this is a perfect. So it's really like a two-speed thing, celebrity quizzing on TV, because there are people who are just there because it's fun and it's a booking, and there's people are there because they want to prove themselves. And, you know, there is the Holy Grail of winning the pointless trophy,

the House of Games trophy, the Mastermind trophy, and the chase. And, you know, there's lots of people who've been on all of them. It's tricky because lots of those shows are different, harder to win. Celebrity Mastermind, if you win that, it sort of shows something about yourself. House of Games as well, I think there's sufficient, you know, different difficulties in the questions that that's something that quizzes like to do. You know, something like The Chase, you can be judged on how much money that you've made.

someone who's won all of those shows is Richard Herring. Sometimes people say, oh, Richard Herring must be the best celebrity quizer. But every time he's on point of celebrities, he did terribly, I think it's like first three appearances on that. It didn't get past the first round. So if you're listening, Richard, I'm disqualifying you. And, you know, I have to. Someone like Steve Pemberton, every time he goes on something does incredibly well.

He's a very, very good quizer. House of games, very few people have won all five shows. Jay Rainer did, Vittorio Angelooney did. But I would say the two best celebrity quizzes, in my view, and this goes across the chase, it goes across beat the chasers, it goes across to their mastermind, all of those things. Angela Barnes, I would say, who went five out of five on House of Games and has done all sorts of things on other quizzes as well. And Sean Williamson, Barry from EastEnders, who was, I think, the first three-time pointless chap pot winner. The two of them, I would say.

He's a phenomenon. He is a phenomenon. I mean, Paul Sinner, of course, is the best celebrity quizer. really. But in some ways, he's a quizer. Yeah, he is, yeah. Because he's like a professional quizer as well. But he would, if you're, you know, he's a wonderful stand-up as well. So if you just take him as a stand-up, he is, of course, the best celebrity quizer. But if you want people who were celebrities and just go on quizzes, I'm going Angela Barnes and Sean Williamson. Next week, we will not be answering any questions because Paul McCartney will be answered.

So Paul McCartney, yeah. We'll be answering your questions. We are extremely excited about that. So do join us for that. And also thank you. I mean, I mean, so many questions. I'm really, really sorry if we don't get to yours. But really, really. Yeah, we won't. There's so many.

But really, really some great and very, very smart questions. I hope you're different questions than he's been asked before. Other than that, tomorrow for our members, we have a bonus episode about the Michael Jackson Pepsi commercial incident, his hair caught fire. Not the most controversial thing that ever happened to him. No, but there was a ripple. There were ripple effects.

Anyhow, that's, if you want to become a member for ad-free listening and bonus episodes, it's the restisentatement.com. Otherwise, we'll see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. Why did we really go to war with Iraq? And did Saddam Hussein really have weapons of mass destruction? I'm Gordon Carrera, National Security Journalist.

And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. We are the hosts of The Restis Classified, and in our latest series, We are telling the true story of one of history's biggest intelligence failures, Iraq WMD. In 2003, the U.S. and UK told the world that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, but they were wrong. This wasn't a simple lie. It was something far more complicated, far more interesting, and far more dangerous. Spies who believed their sources, politicians who wanted the public to believe in the threat, and a dictator who couldn't prove he'd already destroyed the weapons.

In this series, we go deep inside the CIA and MI6, go into the rooms where decisions were made, and look at the sources who fabricated the intelligence that took us to war. The Iraq War reshaped the Middle East and permanently weakened public trust in governments and intelligence agencies, and its consequences are still playing out today. Plus, in a declassified club exclusive, we are joined by three people who are at the heart of the decision,

to go to war. Former head of MI6, Richard Deerlove, Tony Blair's former communications director, Alistair Campbell, and former acting head of the CIA, Michael Morel. So get the full story by listening to The Rest is Classified and subscribing to the Declassified Club wherever you get your podcasts.