The Rest Is Entertainment - How The Media Won It For Trump

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Did legacy media lose it for Harris, and new media win it for Trump? Marina and Richard take us through how both campaigns used the media as tools to put their messages across and support their campaigns. One of the TV events of the year is upon us as 12 celebrities head into the jungle for I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here. With the lineup in place we go through the runners and riders of this year's camp mates. Another event in the calendar is the release of the annual Now! compilation album. Richard gives us a history of its release, its heyday, and how it fits into the future of music. Recommendations: Richard: The Diplomat (Netflix) *** Some final choir seating tickets have been released for The Rest Is Entertainment Live at the world famous Royal Albert Hall. Enjoy a live Q&A, podcast favourites and more surprises. Get your tickets at www.therestisentertainment.com *** Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club for ad free listening and access to bonus episodes: www.therestisentertainment.com Sign up to our newsletter: www.therestisentertainment.com Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producer: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport As always we appreciate your feedback on The Rest Is Entertainment to help make the podcast better: https://forms.gle/GeDLCfbXwMSLHSUHA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware and stay safe. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osmond. Hello everybody. Hello Marina. Hello Richard back from America I am back from did you do anything when you're out there? I just mostly did podcasting Actually, I do want to hear about it. Listen, we are gonna talk about the Trump victory a little bit I'm afraid we're gonna talk about why a certain group of our society did not see it coming and were surprised by it what it means for the media and also I think about the fact that I think it probably spells an end to a certain era of our news media and it's going to

need the beginning of a very different news media. I think that the whole thing generally, we're not going to talk about the politics of it, I promise, but we're going to talk about media, news, how we get our news, how we are influenced and why so many people are surprised by what other people think and believe and what can be done about it. So I promise it won't be all doom and gloom stuff. Media and entertainment. Media and entertainment, exactly. Well, look at the fun side of the Trump victory. And we are then going to talk about the new I'm a Celebrity starts this week. We're going to go through the runners and riders of that.

That should be some light relief. And we're also going to talk about now. Now that's what I call music CDs, which you may believe to be a relic from the past, but which are not without giving too many spoilers. They are still going going to talk about the history of those and the future of those as well. And there's some very interesting bits and bobs in that story. So Trump won the American election. I'm so if anybody has still got to catch up on it, I'm so sorry to be a spoiler. Should have said at the beginning

there'll be spoilers. There will be spoilers. Now Marina, you were on the Rest is Politics kind of US election special live stream. There's you, there's Addis to Campbell and Rory Stewart from Rest is Politics, Dominic Sandbrick from the Rest is History and Scaramucci from the Restless Politics US. I think an instructive thing on that was Scaramucci, Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell had positions to defend because they're from a very traditional media background. They'd said a number of things in the past where actually their reputations were at stake and things that they believe

were at stake depending on the result. Whereas you and Dominic Sandbrick were able to come at it from a very different angle, whether either of you are impartial, I do not know, but you were able to talk in a more impartial way and in a way that felt more authentic. And I think that is the absolute key to where we have to go with our media. 100%. I think it was really significant. And I've said this before, that the type of podcasts that Trump went on, Logan Paul's Impulsive and obviously Joe Rogan, those things are so influential among disaffected young men, many of whom went in big and significant numbers over to Trump. But I was so stunned.

I had quite a lot of work to do in the day times and I would do it in my hotel room with CNN on. That's a brand name I recognize and I'm probably going to do in the day times and I would do it in my hotel room with CNN on That's a brand name. I recognize and I'm probably gonna find Fox News a bit shouty, although interesting There is no news on the hour on CNN So I kept waiting for the headlines thinking I feel like I've been watching a long time and I don't know any of the things That happened. They 100% were an agent of the Harris campaign. I mean completely so that point you just made about traditional media Okay, look at what traditional media published and said about Trump in the run up to this, okay, and he's still one. So they are either dead or they are totally ineffective in their current form and they

have to accept that. I did thank God so much for the BBC because we, as we've discussed on this podcast before with a lot of data, we do not have Polarise and Media News Market in any way in the same way that they do because we have the BBC. And actually, it made me rethink something that happened in the final days of the campaign. How ridiculous would it be if the BBC endorsed an election candidate? It would be so ridiculous. Or ITV or Channel 4, by the way. Or any of the public's... Yes, absolutely.

To us, it would seem absurd. It would seem absolutely absurd, like sort of Rome had fallen, et cetera, et cetera. And yet here this is completely normal. And I suddenly thought, you know, there was that big blow up in the campaign of like, oh, the Washington Post wants to endorse a candidate. I can't imagine who they're backing.

Prior to Jeff Bezos, who never does anything, has said, well, I don't think you should actually. And I remember thinking, okay, first of all, I do think that newspapers endorsing candidates is one of the saddest and most tragic and pathetic things in like modern media discourse at all. Everyone has a long editorial meeting and they decide who they're going to go. I mean, wake up. It's so ridiculous. Okay. It's like seeing the light from a long dead star. You know, oh, that looks pretty. Yeah. No, actually that thing died like 300 years ago. The light's just reaching us.

It's like replays in the third round of the FA Cup. You think, yeah we used to love them but we understand why we don't have them anymore. Exactly, okay. I have some sympathy in retrospect with Bezos' idea that maybe a slightly more impartial media would actually be helpful even if you're on the side of say the want of a better way of putting it the Democrat side because if you could have a slightly less polarized media and people had some form of common culture that they went to it would be really interesting. You did have I Got News for

you which I want to come to late night in the US okay that's where they have most of their political satire late night television they've got a big tradition of it it means less and less these shows and the podcasters bizarrely mean much more and more. But these guys who front these shows, I mean Jimmy Kimmel cried. Wow. He said about Trump, he has a list of enemies. You think I'm not on it? I don't think you're in the top nine million. I mean what? What are you talking about? I mean you're a white guy for a start.

Yeah. The reaction was funnier than the shows but but I, this is some, a phenomenon that I first sort of thought, oh my gosh, because I've always been interested in late night, I've read a ton of books about, I was fascinated by those Letterman, Lino years, all of that stuff. It's, if you're interested in it, some of the stories about those times are brilliant and there's some great kind of biographies about, um, there's a really good one of Letterman by a guy called Jason Zinnerman, really fascinating story. Anyway, sorry, that's a bit of a side note. But those late night shows used to be watched by everybody. There was

that common culture. It was anyone can collapse on the sofa late at night and watch this thing. I remember watching John Oliver's show last week tonight in the week after the Trump victory in 2016. And it was like this whole post-apocalyptic thing. And I just thought, oh, I see. Like, you don't think that anyone who doesn't share your politics or whatever watches your show and you're probably right. It's just assumed that no one who would think, well actually hang on a second, my side won. Yeah, I think that's the case. I mean, I think by the way they're absolutely allowed to do that and the generation of comedy writers who enjoy doing that sort of thing and people

who love watching it. The only mistake is the category error is to think it might make any sort of difference in an election campaign. By the way, a great thing to do, you have to tell truth to power, you know your satire still has to exist, you have to do great jokes about people. But we have gone beyond an era where the signifiers as to who is going to win an election or who is being listened to when people decide to win an election has completely changed. I mean, it's changed gradually, gradually, gradually. And now it doesn't exist anymore. They are not on TV.

It is eroded. Absolutely. I was speaking to the person who I always think has been so far ahead of the curve and all this guy called Professor Anand Finlison, who's at the University of East Anglia, who's brilliant and for years was saying to me, it is all online. He's saying this 10 years ago, everything is going online. And the thing he says, here's the thing, you know, you can talk about these podcasts and what have you. He said there's an assumption, sometimes on the left, there's an assumption that idiots are being lied to. That that's how elections are won by bad actors lying to people who are gullible. And he said, absolutely. And by the way, Alan Finlayson is a lefty. I mean, he's fairly

un-reconstructed. But he said, the opposite is true. He said, people are so desperate for actual information. That's what people want to make sense of the world. And that's the reason, by the way, they're fed a new cycle where everything is being updated all the time. is always the what's the new thing what's the new thing what's the new thing and there's this hunger this hollowness inside this is no but I want to understand the world what are the forces that make us who we are. And that explains on two sides one the success of something like the rest is history which is two historians like doing, really long form explanations of things that happened a long time ago and is a phenomenon. And it also explains conspiracy theories, which is people saying to you, this is why the world is as it is. Here is a complicated version of why the world exists in the way it does. It's because people want to be told stuff, people want to be informed. And the conspiracy theorists, the people on the right

and right wing agitators have really, really taken advantage of that. And you know, Joe Rogan's podcast, three hours long sometimes, you know, people in this culture where everything is quick, everything is super fast turnaround want context. And if you're not giving them context as well, then someone else is. And that's the place where elections are won. Now they are not one. The channel for American election show and I saw a list like you have to feel for all of these channels because you know they're sort of fighting a 21st century battle with

20th century weapons and you know I think the head of IT and said you know you know what we want people who are who are divisive we do want that you know no one wants to listen to someone bland and the truth is people want to listen to someone who has something to say, something interesting, something unusual to say, and not about the thing that just happened, but about the world, why we live in a certain world, why certain people get paid certain amounts of money, why we have elections every four years, why there are two political parties and not 30. People want to understand the context of the society they live in. They do not want to see Sean Spicer and Boris Johnson

arguing with Krishnaguru Murthy. I mean, they just don't. You know, a very small amount of people do. All of them are our age and above. But actually if you want to influence people, you want to influence society, you want to influence elections, it is happening in a completely different place now. I completely agree with that and I think what you're saying about the, you know, fighting a 21st century war with 20th century weapons, that I do agree with and I think that the trouble for these media companies is, and you can see them doing it all already, these legacy media companies, the traditional kind of broadcasters and news outlets actually and publication outlets, is that they are thinking, oh this will will be like last time we'll make a lot of money off this

I mean I was looking in my inbox over the 12 hours after the result I subscribe to tons of people because it's just my business and I like it and I don't read all these things I got emails, you know from the New Yorker from New York magazine from Vanity Fair You know we do this for you and many other publications beside by the way, you know, we're going to be taking the fight to Trump. Okay, wake up. Because what happened in 2016, as a little bit of a potted aside, is that legacy media companies that were really struggling then got a huge kind of Trump bump. And so companies that were sort of thinking, not that were denying that they were anywhere in the same postcode as the Last Chance Saloon, got to stay out of it a bit longer. And then they think that the same thing is going to happen again

now. And a lot of these people think they're sort of socialists, okay? I personally am a capitalist with interventions, right? And I recognize capitalism when I see it. And it's all these people who are launching these products and launching this stuff thinking, we're gonna make some money off this, okay? So don't deny that that's what they're doing. And if they can say, we do this for you, or we're here to serve you as readers,

whatever it is, whatever it is, they are thinking, kaching. And by the way, this is the rest is entertainment. We talk about media. It's not the rest is politics. So we're not talking about the political aspects of the situation, what Trump is going to do, what's happening to America, any of that stuff, that's for other people who are much more qualified than we are. But what we can talk about is what role does the media play in this, what role does the media play before an

election, and what role does the media play after the election. Very few people, I would say, are changing their vote because the New York Times comes out for Harris. Can we talk by the way very briefly on that? We spoke about celebrity endorsements and how they had absolutely zero impact at all. And they really didn't. Beyonce, Taylor Swift, Springsteen, Oprah, all came out for Harrison. Of course they did. And it didn't and doesn't move the dial. Oh, I think it might potentially move the dial, but not the way they think it does. I really felt like when I was watching Lady Gaga crying at a piano on the sort of eve

of the election, why have they done this now? And everyone thought if I haven't said something, there were certain people that did videos and I thought, has anyone asked Richard Gere to do a video? Have they? I mean, maybe he just feels he has to. And what this means for Hollywood, I suppose it means that yet again, actors have been shown that people don't really care

what they think. In fact, if anything, what they think moves the dial in the other way. I mean, they like them acting. People do like films. They like them less and less. That's the trouble. I like films but I don't want Keanu Reeves

to fix my washing machine. And it speaks again to what Professor Adam Finlayson was saying. He said people are not stupid. People understand Richard Gere can vote for whoever he wants to vote for, but it has no impact on who I want to vote for. I mean he doesn't have a life experience

that would inform why I should vote for somebody. And he doesn't have a lifestyle that would inform why I should vote for somebody. It's meaningless. I think that Taylor Swift got that. I think that Taylor Swift did endorse Kamala. She did like one tweet, but then back to where I think Taylor more than anyone. She gets that. Yeah, it's not making any difference. I'm not, you know, so it's I want to say what I'm doing.

You know, I want to put it out there, but I'm not going to use my power to somehow mobilize a vote because I don't have that power because I'm one person and I'm a billionaire pop star. And please can we never see this again? We should just see the back of it for good. Well we get that billionaires and tech entrepreneurs want Trump to win and we get that actors want Harris to win. It's absolutely baked in. And so if you want to affect people, if you want to affect the way people vote, you have to understand they're smart, you have to understand they're interested in things, you have to understand they're going to vote in their own best interests. And that's the way you have to run a campaign, not from the top down,

but from the bottom up. And as I say, Professor Finlayson has said that for years and years and years, and he was a bit right and a bit more right and a bit more right and now he's absolutely 100% right. He said, you know, he'll write to institutions or newspapers, you know, talk to them about TikTok and Instagram. They go, oh, we don't care. Oh, that isn't anything. And he said for so long, he said, it is everything. This is the thing now. Stop publishing papers about perceived bias on the BBC or Channel 4. It doesn't matter anymore. This is the stuff that matters. And the good news is there are low barriers to entry in that world. There's a whole audience of people who are really desperate for content,

who are interested, and you can make stuff for them and you can appeal to them. And by the way, there are capitalists out there, you can make money out of it as well. In terms of sort of going forward and what entertainment, what it sort of means for entertainment sort of going forward. I think Hollywood is always my favourite place for these things to happen because they have a sort of three-second grief period and then just think, okay, how can we make more money out of this? Yeah, hold on, I just need to get a bit more money out of Saudi Arabia. Well there's that great line, when Barry Delir tried to buy Paramount and he failed and he

lost to Sumner Redstone, He sent a memo to everyone involved. They won, we lost, next. And that is sort of the level of, we talked a lot about on the podcast before about the fact that because of lots of the sort of headwinds in a way that we've been talking about now, lots of these big media companies need to consolidate and there needs to be lots of M&A activity and under Biden administration was really against that. So they're now all thinking, you know, will NBC come in and Comcast come in and take Warner Discovery as just one example of one possible scenario?

There's many different ways that this could happen. However, that could cause there to be sort of editorial influence on the news operations in those... They've all got, you know, they've got CNN or they've got NBC News. Or, you know, in the case of NBC, they have things like SNL or whatever, because it will be much more important to those people that the deal goes ahead than someone gets to do their silly little sketch on SNL or do, say something on the news. And you might see there being sort of orders from the top.

Political interference. Yeah, I think so, in order, because there are too many of these companies and they're going to have to consolidate to survive and Trump will look much more favourable on them, but a favour in return. Yeah. But then Elon Musk hates Bob Iger at Disney because Disney withdrew their advertising from Twitter among the Mount Olympus of some of the most terrible moguls in the world. They're thinking about all these sorts of things. The one great bit of news is you can rely on everyone in Hollywood. I think people are shook up in Hollywood. They really are because I think again because there's a certain mindset there. I think they were surprised by what happened. I think they were, it's damaged them.

So many of them now want to move over here. The artists, the actors, not the executives and the agents. Oh not the execs. Or the agents, because they already knew, I think. Yeah, like they could care less. Well, they can have to make some more money. Yeah, exactly. That's all they care about. But everyone else is going to come over here and make their movies here.

It's amazing news for the British film industry. I have to say that. We'll see. Maybe, maybe. Every single actor and director is going to get... Will there be a big tariff on our movies, though? Oh, God. I mean, listen. But listen, okay, let's talk a little bit because you did have I Got News for You and

you were fantastic on it on Friday and I think you said to me when we were messaging each other about it, you said that no one was really in the mood to whine, which I thought was a good way of putting it. It's fascinating that there's a tightrope there that if you do, as you said, satirical shows have a certain audience and that audience is a broadly liberal left audience, not exclusively, certainly not a Vogue News View exclusively, but you know, that's the perceived version of it. And so there is a tightrope there, I think, between saying jokes that you know the audience will laugh at, an easy joke that

will release people's pain, and understanding that that's what got us in this trouble in the first place. Which a show like South Park, for instance, really, Boyd, that's what got us in this trouble in the first place. Which a show like South Park for instance really voids that's always been equal opportunities and lots of the most interesting things sat out about politics entirely has come via how many series now of South Park which is sort of yeah I'll be interested to see what they do with it. And you know there is a default on you know you go on a Radio 4 panel show and you know there are certain jokes that are going to get a laugh applause that are just obvious and easy.

And I've always tried not to do those types of things. But that was interesting because Roy Wood Jr. was hosting it. Roy Wood Jr. has done the Daily Show and stuff like that for a long time. And I think that the fact that Trump won unequivocally actually is sort of easier because you have to take it, if you're on the side of the Democrats and work out why it happened and what to do next. You know, he was talking about the next four years. He said, you know, we did four years of the Daily Show where it was Trump every

single day, you're writing great jokes and you know, he's doing the most crazy stuff and you're doing great sketches about it and you know, you're pointing out hypocrisies every second and it doesn't move the dial at all so he goes what do we do for the next four years he said is the interesting thing because you still want to make great comedy. Well that's what Peter Cook, do you remember Peter Cook, I told you when he said it's that famous line when he set up the establishment and he said it was a tribute to all the political cabarets of Berlin in 1930s which did so much to prevent the rise of Adolf Hitler okay so satire doesn't work but there lots of, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

There'll always be people on the left who will sit there also and will tweet at you remorselessly saying, oh yeah, you're just making a little joke about him. That means you're normalizing him. It's like, okay, first of all, you've confused the sort of object as a joke with the subject of the joke. Second of all, all you do is sit all day on Twitter, right? You work for Elon Musk. joke. Second of all, all you do is sit all day on Twitter, right? You work for Elon Musk. Yeah. Breaking news, you literally do this for free. You work for Elon Musk, but he doesn't pay you. Okay. That's who you are. So there's all these sorts of people saying, oh no, you can't make jokes about it. One, you absolutely can. The best, all types of creativity gets

made in the decline of an empire and whether or not you think America's just on the point of getting to its good part. Maybe. of an empire and whether or not you think America's just on the point of getting to its good part or maybe or maybe or whether you know this kind of convulsion is a sign of something else. Lots of interesting things and amazing pieces of creativity happen in that time so it has the potential to be a very kind of interesting creative time 100% and suggesting that if you're making a joke about it you are normalizing fascism whatever. I mean, God, you are definitely a big part of the problem.

Now, listen, I hope you don't mind us talking about Trump for a little bit on this podcast. I think we were trying to talk about the media stuff and I'm sure Rory and Alistair talked about other stuff, but I do think it's fascinating and I do think it speaks to lots of things we've been talking about, about the decline of our traditional media and where we get our news and where we get our entertainment. And if you are of a mind to make a difference, then there are forums out there which are not the ones that we grew up with. And one other thing that I do think is a huge problem, and I'm funny enough, I ended up talking to Dominic Sandbrook a lot about this, is that the absence of what we used to have,

which is a shared culture. I don't know how or if you can get that back and I'm not saying that you can but don't forget that you know that the days when everyone turned out and watched the same films and watched the same TV you know that the ratings are always really extraordinary. When the Beatles were, this is obviously what the point is we're trying to put it in a historical perspective, when the Beatles went on Ed Sullivan. Someone's been talking to Dominic Sandbrick. I actually didn been talking to Dominic Sandbrick. I actually didn't talk to Dominic Sandbrick about this particular thing.

And also to Dominic Sandbrick, the Beatles are not history, they're topical. Yeah, well that's actually a reason. Anyway, but the Beatles, when they were on the Ed Sullivan show, were watched by 73 million Americans. There were only 200 million Americans at the time. Now, 106 million Americans watched the finale of MASH, even 52 million watched the end of Friends. Nothing happens like that anymore. We don't have any of that share culture. People think Hollywood's out of touch because they don't go and see the movies. There are these kind of fringe, right-wing movies, but none of the mass culture is shared in quite the... Music to some extent, but in general

they haven't got that sort of shared mass culture and nor have lots of us and it's honestly very hard to see how you get that back. I'm not sure that you can but that is a big problem in terms of serving as a sort of centrifuge. You haven't got those ties that bind. And to leave the final word to Professor Finlayson as well, whatever we talk about, you know, image and reaching people and all that kind of stuff, he said, watch the very last minute of Trump's final speech and the very last minute of Commodore Harris's final speech. The very last minute of Trump's final speech is, I am going to cut your taxes, I'm going to raise your wages and I'm going to protect American jobs. And the final minute of Commodore Harris's one is, we walk together into the future with hope and joy and prosperity and optimism.

And he said, one's transactional, the other's not. So Trump's appearance is entirely vibes based. But at the end, there's the retail politics right at the heart of it. And that's the message that cuts across. Gosh, I think that wraps us up. After the break, we're going to be talking about very jolly things. Very jolly. I'm a celebrity in there and now that's what I call music.

But oh goodness, should we have some adverts? Yes please. Welcome back everybody. Welcome back everyone. It's a Trump-free zone now because we're talking about I'm a celebrity which is back on Sunday. Oh no, what if they book Judd Trump? It's a bit late now, he could go in later. I think we do know the actual lineup.

We do indeed. So BBC's biggest show of the year, of course it's strictly ITV's biggest show of the year is I'm a Celebrity. I think we spoke about it on our very first podcast a year ago now, and the lineup for this year is out. Shall we go through it and tell people who's gonna win? Yes, first of all I would say that this show

is such a big deal for everybody. Lots of people out there in the media. If you look at, if you just go and search the I'm a Celeb tag on the Suns website, you will see they have already had months and months and miles and miles of content out of the show. Who's in, who's out, whatever. This is such a big driver of sort of engagement and people love talking about the show. Okay. They were going to have Tommy Fury, but he's out because he's got a fight. So he had to pull out. He would have been a great booking. I have to say, this is a very, very good lineup. I think it's a pretty good lineup. I have to say, I think that the headline booking and I'd love for you to talk about her is Colleen

Rooney. That is hands down an amazing booking, right? She doesn't need to do it. It's always interesting when people who don't need to do it, do it because you're thinking, why are you doing this? Okay, she's being paid one and a half million, but that doesn't matter because as we know, she's most ever, I think. I think that's the most ever. Yeah. And by the way, in terms of booking the show, as you know, Richard, you have to get these kind of incredible splashy booking, you know, and for a couple of years, you know, it's like, oh, Farage is doing or Matt Hancock's doing it. But you do need that booking that everyone's like, the marmalade drop a booking where you're like, I can't believe they're doing it. And for me, I've always

been interested in Colleen. I remember reading her book like absolutely years ago, which obviously she wrote with somebody really quite soon after Barden Barden, after the 2006 World Cup when she'd become a thing. And it was called Welcome to My World. But in that, a much more sort of, you could tell that she had a lot of views about a lot of things. And if you hadn't read that, and by the way, you know, lots of people haven't, most people haven't at all. But you know, you saw her, she always looked lovely, lovely clothes, she obviously loved

fashion, a smiling sort of image next to Wayne Rooney, right? And you saw the troubles he went through, but she never really said anything. The troubles he went through. Well, I mean, yes. That's a nice way of putting it. The troubles he went through. And she never really said anything. And then when she did that Waggis the Christie thing, okay, you thought, oh, what, that is the biggest Marmelade

dropper for anyone, okay? And the way she wrote it, the way she did everything, the way that Instagram post, it was like, my God, you are entering your Imperial phase. Now, the fact she's doing this show says to me, she did it that, you know, there's a Disney documentary, whatever it is, she wants something different now, okay? Maybe her children are a bit older. She's doing this for a reason, right? Because she's doing this for something for her. And it will be interesting to see what that was. That will emerge because she will be very, very clever and very careful about when any of these people, by the way, who we're about to talk to, their agents, if they're any good, will have said to them, pick the moment to say this and that will end up on the broadcast. And you want it to

end up on the broadcast, not just edited for a news story that because some people are watching the feed the whole time, you want it to be edited on the highlight show. Yeah. And you want people to say, oh, so that was what was going on in Tulisa's life when this happened. Like Tulisa was one of the other. Yeah, you're saying she wanted Antedict to go and, you know, it's everyone sitting around the campfire and Tulisa has something to get off her chest and you go, oh, here we go. This is why Tulisa's agent said yes to this.

Yeah. Well, I can see why, because I think she's been through some awful things. She was a victim of revenge porn. There was a ridiculous tabloid sting in News of the World sting where Mazamamood, who don't forget in the end, went to prison himself, badgered and badgered and badgered her in the guise of somebody else for a number for somebody who could get him some coke. And eventually she sort of, she said, I don't actually do any drugs, but she gave him this number and it was a huge scandal. It was just like, okay, she's like 23. I mean, any 23 year old in this country can get you a number if you want for somebody.

They used to do that all the time. John Alford as well, who was in Grain Shield and stuff, he did exactly the same thing to him. It absolutely ruined his life. And she was a victim of revenge porn. I mean some really bad stuff. And I think Talisa is a really interesting person and I'll be really interested to see how she gets on. So Talisa was there, Colleen Rooney was there. Now the winner of course, because there is a behemoth which has strolled across British popular culture for nearly 20 years now. And every single thing that anyone involved with this project does is an enormous, huge, wonderful, life-affirming hit. Can I guess? Yes, of course you can. Are you going to say the word McFly? Of course I am. Of course I'm going to say the word McFly.

So Danny Jones, the drummer from McFly is taking part in I'm a Celebrity. Let's take just a quick look at the potted highlights of how people from McFly have done in our big reality shows. As you know I bow to very few people in my love for McFly and their work. So Danny Jones himself was on The Masked Singer, which he won. Dougie Poynter went on I'm a Celeb, which he won. Harry Judd went on Strictly Come Dancing, which he won. Now, Tom Fletcher went on Strictly and didn't win. So that's a rare misstep for the McFly boys there. However, I'll say this about Tom Fletcher. He's written 10 UK number one singles.

The book he wrote, The Dinosaur That Pooped Christmas, which he wrote with Dougie Pointer, has been a Christmas bestseller for four years in a row. It's outselling the Boris Johnson book. Every week, by the way, we will catch you up on those. Oh yeah, it's not going great. On the sadness. And even though he didn't win the reality show, he was on his wife Giovanna went on I'm A Celebrity and won it. There is nothing the McFly boys cannot do.

Every single time they turn their hand to anything, whether it's songwriting, whatever TV performance they do, they absolutely nail it. So I cannot see however fascinating we're gonna find Culleen Rooney, and however many great stories there's gonna be from people. Danny Jones to me feels like he's gonna be the champ of this show.

I agree that he's the favourite. But, okay, Moira Higgins, she started on Love Island. I'm not as aware of Moira Higgins' work as I should be, so do film me in. Well that's good at this stage. Yes, oh 100%. Because obviously you're a great consumer of popular culture, but if you're not that aware and so she's got a chance to slightly break from even more of a mainstream audience because she's obviously been big on various things. But I'm aware she's earned the right to be on the show, but I'm looking forward to being

introduced to her. Yeah, and I think she would be my second favourite after Danny. Who else have we got? We've got the Reverend Richard Coles. Yes. He is going on. Who else have we got? Barry McGuigan. So Barry McGuigan is a very, very interesting, very brave, very thoughtful mate. Yes, I wonder. Yeah, it could probably give him a good fight. So Barry McGuigan, I think people will like, but he's got, you know, fifth place written all over him, isn't he? Yes, he has. Okay. Alan Horsall from Corrie, that's good. The Corrie guy usually comes third. I would say, you know, they're usually good, handy in a crisis.

Obviously you've got a big constituency of people who are gonna vote for them anyway, but yeah, I would say if you've got to, if I was to bet on a top three, I'd be going Danny Mora and Alan Halsall. Yeah, okay, I think that's a good chat. Then there are people who, I mean the feed differential is absolutely massive, like if you think of, there'll be someone like Jane Moore's doing it, she's probably doing it for, I mean, I'm guessing like 20 grand and then Colleen will be on 1.5 million. There's this whole sort of beyond sliding scale of things.

Oti Mabusi? Who'll be great, I think an ITV lover, Oti. Yeah, she does Dancing On Ice. You spoke of her, at least, she does Dancing On Ice. And that works for her, that works for ITV. They can give her more shows, so however well she does, she'll be doing okay. It's interesting, so you can really properly launch a career on I'm A Celebrity as well. So I see that Dean McCulloch is on the list and Radio 1 listeners will know him, Northern Irish DJ, very charming, funny, the sort of person that if you know him, you already like him. But if you're his agent, you're thinking, I think Dean could go much bigger and much more

mainstream. And I think he could really work for a big Saturday night ITV audience and that sort of thing. And I always say, don't forget the bookers on this show. When people go people go, I just want, they need more famous people. If you've got a name like Dean McCulloch in there, that's because the bookers have met Dean McCulloch and have understood that they really liked him. And if they put him in jungle, viewers will really like him as well. So I think he could do very well out of it. GK Barry, who is a TikToker, and she has a podcast, which is the biggest problem past practically for the people under the age of 20, particularly teenage girls of 13 to 20, you know exactly who she is. Yeah.

Apart from the rest is history, which is huge with that demographic. I just count that out each time. Yeah. Because it's understood as a given. That's the thing we talk about a lot of where does that cross over the Tik Tok audience and a big traditional linear TV audience? Can someone make that, you know, if you could stride both of those things, you'd be very powerful indeed.

The research suggests that if young people don't see a young person, ideally more than one on the show, they will not watch it. Yes, there's lots of people listening to this will not know GK Barrie and lots of other people GK Barrie is the only name they will know on their list. And then Malvin O'Doom. I love Malvin O'Doom, who will be great. And you know, I mean listen, heaven knows where he'll finish, but he will be a very good presence in camp, Melvin, you really need that as well.

So yeah, that's the, that's your line up, that's our top three as well, I would say Danny, Moira, Alan Housel. But can I just say that this lineup particularly really shows you that reality TV is no longer like this thing where people say oh it's washed up people. Rising Stars want to do it. First of all all of our all of our biggest shows on television are essentially celebrity reality TV now. So you've got strictly you've got I'm a celebrity there will obviously be a celebrity version of Traitors they are all... I keep reading by the way that I'm in Celebrity Traitors. I keep reading that I've

signed up. Now you can read Osmond distances himself from Celebrity Traitors. I'm not distancing myself maybe I have signed up. If you haven't you haven't told me I'll be devastated. Yeah I haven't. Yeah I know. Yeah. Okay but I think it's really interesting Reality TV is no longer low status. And for a long time, even though like you could do something great for your career or you could break it overnight, people also don't think it's somewhere where you're going to break your career overnight. You're going to become washed up because you made one stupid thing. You were really hangry around the campfire and you'd only had beans and rice for a few

days and you just said something and you torched your career outside the show. People no longer think of it like that. It is much more high status and it's much more, you know, I used to have this recurring nightmare that I would wake up on reality TV. It would still be my nightmare that I would wake up like in the camper in the Big Brother house. Would you do celebrity traitors if they asked you? No I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to do reality TV when you're being filmed all the day all the time. I just would hate that. Even though I did go to boarding school and I think on some level I'll be quite good at it I mean, that's a reality TV show. Yeah. Yeah, I do know some of the names There's some good names for celebrity traitors. And again exactly what you're saying

It is there's some quite high-end is people who are really kind of going no I think this will be a lot of fun. Well, that's because all our big show the biggest shows on television are Celebrity reality. I mean even if it's like entertainment, but it's a lot of fun. Well that's because all our big show, the biggest shows on television are celebrity reality. I mean even if it's light entertainment but it's a form of reality. Yeah so those are the biggest shows. So it is no longer low status, just look who they've got and look who wants to do it and look who sees it as a stepping stone rather than one last payday or something like that. But also what a treat. I do like this but leading up to Christmas as well. So we've got I'm a celebrity, we've got the end of Strictly as well. You know it feels like a... A cushion of traitors in January. A cushion of traitors in January? I mean that's a big cushion. Oh that's a nice one isn't

it? We'll have Christmas number one coming up as well. We'll be talking about that. I'm a Celebrity starts this Sunday. Same day by the way as the other great reality TV show Mike Tyson versus Logan Paul on Netflix, which we haven't spoken about, but maybe this one we'll see how that's. Yeah, let's see how it pans out. We'll see how that pans out. But again, that's it's exactly that thing of, you know, people say, yeah, but it's not a real fight. And you know, Mike Tyson's 58 and he thinks, yeah, people don't mind. They like the vibe of the thing.

Let's talk about it next week. Yeah, let's talk about that next week. Now. Now. Now. I see what you've done now. Now that's what I call music. And now two things happened on the 28th of November 1983. One, I became a teenager on that exact day and two, the very first ever Now That's What I Call Music compilation came out, which I bought at Phil Collins. It's just like impossible not to see those events now as related.

Exactly. And, and listen, we both aged in different ways. I can still remember lots of the songs are on this. Double Dutch was on it, the first one, Total Eclipse of the Heart was on it, Red Red Wine was on it, Karma Chameleon is just sort of absolutely ingrained in my DNA. Like in some way you can remember every song that was on Abbey Road, I can remember every song that was on now that's why I can remember every song that was on Now That's What I Call Music 1. So I want to talk about how it came about, some of the stories behind it and also where it is now.

Is there still space for compilation CD in the world of Spotify and you can have every kind of playlist you could possibly imagine. But back then it was a big deal. Virgin Records launched this brand Now Now that's what I call music. There've been a few of these compilation albums back in the 70s. All we had was the Top of the Pops albums, which had scantily clad women on the front cover and cover versions of songs from the charts. Because the rights were just too complicated to patchwork, is that right? Exactly. Just cheaper to get a cabaret actor to sort of do these songs. And I remember

my mum just had, just had like 10 of these top of the box compilations. Then there was in 83, funny enough, January 83, actually the thing that really launched, now that's what I call music, was a different compilation called Raiders of the Pop Charts. That got to number one. It's just a compilation of hits from the previous year.

And a lawyer at Virgin Records said, we started to get lots of people asking if we can put our songs on compilation albums. He said, should we just do this ourselves? Because they'd had a few huge hits, Phil Collins was with them, Culture Club, various people. He said, I wonder if this is something that we could do. Virgin then teamed up with EMI, who had sort of a lot of the other roster of acts, and yes, thought we'll do our own compilation. They didn't have a title for it, and Simon Draper, who was the co-founder of Virgin Records, had a poster behind his desk, which Richard Branson had bought for him,

because he always liked to have bacon for breakfast, and it was a poster of a chicken singing and a pig leaning over a fence saying now that's what I call music and they were having a meeting in that room and someone said well why don't we call the compilation that so it's called now that's what I call music because of a cartoon pig essentially so they did this Simon Draper at the time said I don't really see the point in it you know why is someone gonna buy a compilation album why are acts going to want to be on a compilation album?

Anyway, a hundred... This was before we had something called playlists, you know, the younger listeners. So everybody was into albums, the album was an art form and... And also, but we would still, we'd tape songs off the charts, you know, with kind of play record. You'd always have a little bit of... How many did you have? I mean... I mean, so many, but also always with the DJ talking over the beginning of it and talking over the end of it as well.

That was how... Me and my sisters used to do it also off top of the pops on a VHS. We had so many tapes of music which we would then just watch and watch and watch. And people would make playlists for each other. It was always a kind of like a love token, like some, you know, poor little emo boy, no names, who would sort of spend hours and hours making a compilation of, you know, old Jesus and Mary Chain B-sides that were not going to be appreciated. But now, of course, you can have any compilation you want.

But at that point you couldn't. And now was a sort of phenomenon straight away. Went to number one in its second week, stayed at number one. Since then it has sold 120 million albums, 120 million. One of the top 10 best-selling albums ever in the UK, so this is with Thriller and Queen Greatest Hits, is now that's what I call Christmas. It's five million copies they have sold of their albums. So Simon Draper saying that it wasn't really for me, it has made Virgin and EMI such an enormous amount of money. It was phenomenal for a very long time. Now this week, now 119 is coming out. Okay, now 119 is where we've

got to. And across those albums, they've gone 270 times platinum these albums okay but I will say this every single album had gone platinum until 2018 which is the first time that a Now compilation went gold instead of platinum in 2021 it was the first time a Now album had gone silver instead of going gold and 2023 the first time a Now album had gone silver instead of going gold and 2023 the first time a Now album didn't even go silver. Sales were about 25,000. So we're at now 119. I Think we may not get far beyond now 125 or something. I suspect I think this extraordinary run. Yeah, but what around yeah, I mean It really is amazing and it's a part of so many people's teenage years, these incredible compilations, people found bands they'd never

find before. And it must seem so weird to anyone who's under sort of 30, that this was even a thing that somebody just put them together, it would be a two album kind of vinyl thing. The first six tracks would be huge pop songs. Then there'd be... Well that's interesting actually, that how they'd sequence them is a real thing. I read an interview with a guy and he said, we worked out from sort of market research that the way people bought these albums is they looked at the sort of first six tracks and then the last three. So as long as those were sort of all the bangers, then that was a good way of selling them. But in 1999, they became so successful that they had to be siloed off into a special chart compilation albums. And that was because like big artists in America were like, sorry, I'm losing out the number one spot to

what's this called. Yeah. So Springsteen and Madonna would be like going to number two in the charts and they'd be sent to the record company at Halloween. I'm too, they go, well, because now that's what I call music. 46 is number one. And they'd be sent to the record company, how are we number two? They go, well, because now that's what I call music 46 is number one. And they'd be go, what is that? Yeah. So now they have their own chart, which is the compilation chart. Well, that's what the New York Times bestselling books had to do with self-help books basically, because they so massively outsold like any of the great American novelists, which all

American novelists are great as we know. And they so massively outsold them. They're in a chart called advice slash how-to, and they sell like miles more than anything else. And sorry, this is a bit of a sidebar, but my friend, Andy O'Hagan, was once sitting next to publisher of these books who was like, yeah, no, and he said, I could do one. I could do it. She was like, no, you couldn't, you couldn't. But I'm like, she was a really, she was, oh no, she was, she agented for people and she was like, okay, tell me what's your idea for your title. And he just threw it off the top of the head, his head, why men cry in their cars.

And she was like, there was a pause. And she said, no, you're right. I could get you a million for that. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Anyway, sorry, talking about silo charts, but to some extent, and I'm sorry that they're going, that these particular compilation albums and whatever, not becoming silver as you say, but there is the other trend, which I think we'll talk about in the future, about people

sort of trying to buying stuff, buying physical copies of music. First of all, we know that downloads sort of pose a terrible existential threat to artists and to albums and all sorts of things like that. And there is a trend definitely among younger people, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, who wants to own things. I think the fear that you don't have it in your hand, I mean if you look at DVDs, when they had, when the DVD of Oppenheimer, the Blu-rays came out, they immediately sold out and they were so surprised that they had to start sort of reprinting because people want to say,

oh, I want to watch that or I want to listen to this at any time. And people being unable to find things. It's interesting that people, I'm sorry that this particular compilation series is sort of on the wane, but many other things are still selling and are selling better and are actually the sales on for physical copies of things even in a world of streaming and downloads are going up. Well it's interesting because now also gives us a sort of a history of audio formats as well the last ever now album to be on vinyl was Now 35 which was 1996 they stopped vinyl after that they've recently of course bought it back again. Yeah, because everyone's in divine.

And the last cassette was 2006. They've yet to bring those back, I think. But yeah, listen, it's one of those things that everyone has grown up with. There's some weird people who've been on it. Like Radiohead have been on seven, now that's what I call music compilations. Radiohead. That's amazing. There's been everyone from Dollar to Carter, The Unstoppable Sex Machine, from Jesus and Mary Chain to Glenn Baderos. There's a great playlist of it on Spotify and I think it's 266 hours long, which is like every available song from all the

Now compilations. But you know, Simon Draper, even now after all those things, he said, I still don't get why people are buying them, but they've just made Virgin so much money. And it brought so much joy to a lot of people. As I say, it's still going. 119 is out this week. I've seen that Bob Marley has been on one. His son Ziggy Marley has been on one. And now his grandson Skip Marley has been on one as well. So grandfather, son, grandson, Duran Duran, who were on the very, very first one, is there something I should know? I think it was the second track on the very first one, are also on 119. They're literally been on the first one and they're on another one 41 years later. So listen, absolutely fair play to everyone who did it. And you know, lovely just to be able to remember kind of all those now compilations coming out and the various knockoffs that hits compilations and shine compilations if you're an indie fan but I just like talking about something that everyone under twenty five must just seem like madness.

What on earth are you talking about because you can get any compilation you want. I think everyone on the perhaps thirty five. Yeah it is madness and yet people are going back to them. compilation you want of any music. I think everyone on the perhaps 35. Yeah. It is managed and yet people are going back to them. They are but yeah so now that's what I call music 119 out this week. There won't be many more so cherish it while you can I would say. If you by the way at home if you own the CD of now that's what I call music for have a look through your collection if you've got it which is worth a fortune was the first CD they didn't print very many of them so if that is in your collection or your parents collections or I have to accept probably your grandparents collections

sell it because it's worth a lot of money. And once there are now no cars made with CD players in them any longer. And people still, people are saying, but why don't they make cars with CD players in they really want, although people, huge demand for it. If you ever look at resale on, um, auction sites or whatever, people think that car stereos utterly trash your CDs. So you will see the line not played in never played in car stereo. No, really? Yeah.

It's a big thing on the resale market. So if you have one of your grandparents now for CDs, I hope it's never been played in a car, probably hasn't actually been played in a car stereo, but that will make it worth even more. Recommendations? Non-partisan media. Very good. I recommend The Diplomat series two has just started and I hadn't seen series one, so I've just started watching it.

It's so good. I'm loving it on on Netflix. Strongly recommend it. I tell you what, should we get together again on Thursday for a question and answer edition? Yes, please, Richard. Let us do this. How can people send in their questions? Please, to the rest is entertainment at gmail.com. We look forward to hearing from you. And don't forget the Royal Albert Hall. They've just opened up the choir seats behind us. We've sold out everything else. So the choir seats behind us are there.

You will be sort of, you'll have a weird view behind us, but I promise we'll play backwards as well. So there will be a 360 degrees experience in all centres. Those have just become available, which is very, very exciting. I'm very pleased about that. But I think pretty much everything else is sold out. There's like little individual seats here and there if you fancy that, but we'll see everyone on Thursday.

See you on Thursday.