The Rest Is Entertainment - Is Shakespeare Overrated?

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

Can you save Love Island from the reality show graveyard? Why did a war criminal try to sue Black Ops? And is William Shakespeare actually any good? Richard Osman and Marina Hyde answer your questions on the world of TV, Film and much more... The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Visit Sky.com to find out more For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry Swan Producer: Joey McCarthy Senior Producer: Neil Fearn Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky who've made something rather nice. It's called Sky Glass Air, a 4k TV, sleek, sharp and from just £6 a month, which let's be honest, is less than most people spend each morning chasing the perfect oat milk latte. It's the kind of picture that makes your living room feel like it's had a tasteful upgrade. Every shadow, every sword fight, every suspicious glance exactly as the director intended. It also uses Dolby Audio and automatically adjusts picture and sound based on what and where you're watching. No tinkering, no faff, just clever telly that adapts to you.

And it's got Sky built in plus all your favorite apps in one place ready when you are, which means less time hunting, more time watching. Skyglass Air brings the cinema to you, only this time you decide when the show starts. To find out more or to get yours from just £6 a month, head to Sky.com. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at NoFrills.ca.

Hey everyone, it's Steph McGovern here from The Rest Is Money. I'm going to hand you back to Richard and Marina in a sec, but I just wanted to tell you about a thriller I've written. It's called Deadline and it's about a reporter who is live on air interviewing one of the most powerful people in the country and then she is told in her earpiece that her child and her wife have been kidnapped. She has to do everything the hijacker is telling her to do in this interview. But why and who's doing this? This is all about power, corruption and lies. Deadline out now.

Right you can go back to Richard and Marina now. Thank you very much. Bye bye. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment, Questions and back to Richard and Marina now. Thank you very much. Bye bye. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment, Questions and Answers edition. I'm Marina High. And I'm Richard Osmond. Hello Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? I'm all right. Can I start with some any other business? Yeah, of course. The last couple of weeks we've had the continuing saga of who recorded their Christmas show

first. Catchphrase had recorded theirs in May, QI got in touch to say we recorded ours in March and no one could beat that. I then said about the time that on Deal or No Deal we recorded a year in advance, we recorded two at the same time, so that was a year. But we hear from Kevin Shanahan now, hello Kevin, who has been on the 1% Club, which record next to House of Games in Manchester. So I've been on the set, anyone who's got questions about 1% Club, send them in because Because I literally, the lovely thing about doing this podcast is I get to ask anyone anything. Everyone tells me everything. But Kevin says, I can beat the record for the longest record between program and air date. I was a contestant on

the Christmas edition of the 1% Club. We recorded on Wednesday, the 18th of October 2023 to be aired on Thursday, the 26th of December 2024, a wait of 14 months. And the person who won had to wait all that time to finally get their money. Lee Mack made a joke about all of us behaving for the year so the show did not get cancelled. So Kevin- Thank you, Kevin. I think you've QI'd QI. Well, I already QI'd QI, to be fair, do not know the deal. Kevin has QI'd me, but I'm about to QI Kevin again because I got a call through the other day from someone who had been taping of a big ITV show, which recorded next year's Christmas show last week.

So they did this year's Christmas show and next year's Christmas show, which is 18 months ahead of schedule. I can't say what the show is to protect my sources, but we've got an 18 month- I love how committed you are to that. Yeah, an 18 month- If anyone wants to QI that, very, very best of luck. We can't go further than 18 months, surely, for the earliest Christmas record. God. I mean, you are a slight hostage to a number of fortunes there I think. Yes we are but no one's slipped up yet. I've never heard of one of these things that has had to be cancelled. I can't wait for one of your guests to get completely cancelled for something

absolutely great actually. Wow you can't wait for that. Yeah. So you have to don your Christmas jumper for real Richard and do the show right here, do a live episode of it. I'll tell you what. Have you ever done a live episode of it? If Mel Gedroits gets cancelled between now and Christmas, I will give you 20,000 pounds It is not that is not gonna happen. Have we done a live house of games? No No, I mean, it's one of the few shows you could do live. Yes I know there's no recording breaks or this or the other you could do it. It's all up there on the screen It's all up there on screen anyone at the BBC listening. Listen, let's do it But you know, I mean only takes us 40 minutes anyway. Can I come on that one? Of course you can I mean

listen you have an open invitation on to House of Games. I was just thinking I could say something unsuitable and get myself cancelled in the live exhibit. Such a great idea then you can't come back and do the podcast you can't do your column anymore. It's just something I thought off the top of would you believe? And I might retract the offer. I can believe that. Right, should we do some questions? Yes, shall we? And give them answers.

Okay, I will ask you a question from Scott McKinnon. Scott says, my girlfriend and I have watched Love Island together for several years and both of us have felt like the quality of recent seasons has dipped dramatically year on year, a feeling that seems to be backed by falling ratings and discussion online. Your task, Marina, is to save Love Island. You have an unlimited budget. What do you do? Unlimited budget?

Okay, say I have a limited budget. For the love of God, don't give Marina an unlimited budget. Just pay people to watch it is the best way to save Love Island. No, it is a bit of a bore now, isn't it? Sometimes formats just get tired and other things overtake them in the culture. And it has been superseded in lots of ways by all those Chris Colen shows things like Perfect Match and Love is Blind and all those sort of shows somehow seem sort of more outrageous and more kind of near the

knuckle than this did. Okay but you've given me a challenge and I quite like things like this and so I just think what I would throw at it is I would try and go really high concert I would bring in all the bullshit of the modern world. I would have astrology on all the contestants. I would have all sorts of psychology. I would have friendship groups, like that you could be joining a WhatsApp group and just watch their friends talking about what was happening on screen.

I would have to have 360 things like that and anything to create more drama and to make it more of a sort of weird social experiment but to make it kind of across all sorts of different platforms and Yeah, I like the idea of being added to a whatsapp group and watching people's friends Just talk about what they're doing all the friends would be caught to bear in mind. I've got sort of semi limit unlimited budget Yes, I would have astrologers as a ridiculous stuff I've totally overblown because the thing about the shows that are those Chris Cullen shows that we're saying, they're so high concept, you know, you don't know the person you're marrying or you can't see them in the pods and whatever. Watching people talking around

in their bikinis and it's quite boring now. So I think it just has to sort of bring in all the kind of weird woo woo of the modern era. That's what I would do with that, I think. What would you? Well, I'll get first, I've given an enormous hat tip to Love Island for how they've kept it at the heart of the conversation for so many years, which is very, very difficult. As you say, they're in a very, very crowded marketplace now. And a lot of these new shows are sort of built on the back of Love Island. You know, Married at First Sight, all of these things.

You know, they have this big hook in the middle of them, which Love Island doesn't particularly have because you didn't need big hooks in the olden days because Justin putting a lot of sort of fit young singles on an island seemed to be a hook big enough. How naive we were. It's a big brand for ITV, so I imagine that people behind the scenes are working on how they might revamp it

in various different ways. It is a revamp in itself. Let's not forget that originally. That's why I took off my hat because it ran for a few seasons. He had Celebrity Love Island, and actually they were, like First Dates, funny enough, they turned it into something completely different.

They turned it from a slightly more abundant franchise into this huge hit that was at the center of the conversation. So they've done an amazing job with it, and I wouldn't rule them out doing one again. A show we pitched years ago, and I've always thought there's something in it, because all these shows, this is Married at First Sight, and all these things are great, but they're always about attracting a sexual partner. And we talked about that thing about how men find it difficult, very difficult to make friends. You know, there's certain groups of men who find it quite hard to form male friendships. So we had a sort of a dating show, but for platonic male friendship.

That's so cool. It's cute, right? Which is men who sort of don't quite know where they can meet other men to go and sort of watch a sporting event with or to just talk about their day at work. They don't want to be joining a fight club. Yes, exactly. Like, please, not another fight club. Love is not a fighter's club. Yeah, and so it's friendship, but you get the same acceptance, rejection stuff that

you would get in a love island, but from men who are opening themselves up and being vulnerable about being lonely and needing friends, and then other people kind of go go, actually I'm going to be his friend, not your friend. I think it might be the most melancholy. But it really is, isn't it? I've literally just thought of a name for it, which is Bruv Island. Oh, please. Hi, you're just throwing your pearls before swine here. I would love to see that.

Come on, Kevin, I'll go Bruv Island. As I say, I did like, what was that thing with Davina, my mom, your dad? The thing I liked about that, the reason I was saying it's be good to see their friends talking about it, because about what they're like. And my mom, your dad, when you saw the kids of people who were trying to sort of matchmake their parents, that felt quite unusual and I enjoyed those bits the most of it. So all of those sorts of things, bringing other people in feels to me interesting. But yes, it's a revival to start with and Love Island could be revived, but I think

it sort of needs to be now. I agree. Yeah, but there's great people on it. So I suspect it will be. But don't forget that if you are setting up one of these big new shows, you steal people from those shows. So you know, you do sort of take out some of the films and the foundations of long running shows sometimes if someone's done five seasons of Love Island and gets an offer to show run a new flashy thing with a big budget, it's on a streamer, of course you go. And then the next generation of people who worked on that show have to take it over. And the same with Big Brother has been through so many generations of people who started working on it, went somewhere else, came back. And those shows have a long

tale, I would say. I suspect Love Island will be with us in various iterations for a long time to come. Speaking of very long time to come, Vince Patton has asked, what is the longest running show in entertainment history? Is it Desert Island Discs? It is not Desert Island Discs. It's a good question. There's lots of definitive answers to various different things like the longest running theatre show ever is The Mouse Trap. I saw that last week. You saw it last week?

I'd seen it before, but my daughter went for her birthday. She's obsessed with Agatha Christian. She was 11 and we went to see it. She absolutely loved it. It's fun. I saw it for the first time because we're doing a Thursday murder club play. I went to see it just because I wanted to see what was what and why it was quite so successful. You can see why it's successful. Yeah.

It's a great night out. I saw it with some Americans a couple of decades ago and then it was very sort of tired. They've really shushed it up since I last saw it and you see all the kind of big promotional posters for it around the West End and there was the movie See How They Run, which was sort of- Like an homage. Yeah, like an homage to it, exactly. So anyway, sorry, that's Longer Theatre.

Yeah, that started in 1952. So what's that? Seventy, seventy-three years. Thirty thousand performances. There's a quote where they're sort of showing, God, no one knows anything do they? Because they said to Agatha Christie, what do you think about this? And she goes, no, I'll give it eight months. You think eight months is an enormously successful run.

I was about to say, eight months is a great run in a lifespan, please. Yeah, she's not saying, oh God, I'll give it eight months. That's not someone being pessimistic. That's someone going, I reckon. It really sounds like a quote that the internet's come up with as well, because I didn't imagine Agatha Christie saying things like, I'll give it eight months. I don't think she taught like that. Sorry, I'm calling bullshit on that quote, but anyway. Yes, you say, I wonder, I'm hoping that for the last eight months, and if it does, I shall be absolutely like a pig in shit. That'll be the money that's going to bring in the

diamonds I'm going to buy with that. Yes, I doubt that very much. But in terms of radio shows, so Desert Island Discs started in 1942. So that's what, 83 years old. You would think, wouldn't you, 83 years old, that would be the longest running radio show of all time. But no. The longest running radio show of all time. 160 years. There was a radio show.

Shut the front door. What is this? 160 years old, almost twice as old as Desert Island Discs. It first went out before radio really, first went out on Via Telegraph, the longest running show in the world. Still got the same title, still got the same name. Is it the shipping forecast? Shipping forecast is exactly right. Shipping forecast first went out in 1867. It's been running a minimum of twice a day ever since, every single day. First

to live via telegraph, switched to radio in 1924. So it's been over a hundred years, actually on the radio, but 160 years in all. By far the longest running format in entertainment history. That's radio, television, anything that you want the shipping forecast. It was switched off during the Second World War. So in a way they're cheating. That's when Desert Island Discs came in. On VE Day, it was immediately resumed along with the weather, because both of those weren't on during the war, I think, to not give the enemy any sort of advantage, knowing atmospheric conditions. And only one day since then they failed to broadcast it. That was the 30th of May 2014. BBC Radio 4 failed to broadcast it, because staff at Broadcasting of May 2014, BBC Radio 4 failed to broadcast it because

staff at Broadcasting House did read it out, but someone forgot to hit the red button to transmit and that's the only day apart from the only two things. People lost their minds about that. Yeah. The only two things that have ever stopped it in 160 years are Hitler and somebody forgetting to press a red button and that show business. 160 years though, eh? That's unbelievable. It's a bona fide hit, Richard, isn't it? Let's just call it. You know what?

I think it's a hit and it's still series one. It's amazing, isn't it? But also all those catchphrases, Tyne, Dogger, all that stuff. Yeah, a lot of characters' names come from the names of the different, what are they called, lines? Shipping areas. Shipping areas. Lines. Lines. You know Shipping areas. Shipping areas.

Lines. Lines. You know what I mean. German Bites. North at Syrah, South at Syrah. What's your favourite? I think North at Syrah is my favourite. It's gone out of my head now, even though I've listened to it one billion times.

I can't think, it's so soothing. I think it puts me to sleep. You just got doggo going round your head. So thank you very much for that question. 160 years is the longest entertainment franchise of all time. Right. I think the time has come for us to go to a break. This podcast is brought to you by Sky Sports on now.

If you're after gripping drama this summer with no script, limited health and safety measures and plot twists in gum shields, the British and Irish Lions are touring Australia. Three tests, six warm-ups, a cast of battered heroes with more bandages ears than a Van Goff exhibition. Now, the Lions is rugby at its most mythical, forged from folklore, fuelled by rivalry, four nations, six weeks, one jersey, and unlike most franchises, this one comes round only once every four years. And it's the first tour to Australia in 12 years. Expect packed stadiums, electric atmospheres,

and kangaroo mascots that look like they've seen things. It's pure sporting theater, and this time the curtain rises mid-morning. Which, let's be honest, is the dream. No late kick-offs or caffeinated anthems, just a front row seat with breakfast from your sofa as 30 men audition for immortality. It's not just a team, it is a temporary alliance of rivals chasing legacy.

You can catch every match live on Sky Sports, available to stream with now. Hello everyone, it's Gary Lineker here from The Rest Is Football. Just a quick message to tell you all about the Club World Cup tournament that's taking place in the US at the moment. It's 32 of the best teams from all around the world battling it out to be crowned the best side on the planet. We've reached the knockout stages of the competition which means all the big guns will be going head to head.

Manchester City, Real Madrid, PSG, Chelsea, and Bayern Munich are just some of the sides vying to lift the trophy. Join myself, Alan Shearer, Michael Richards, and our expert out in America, Alex Aljoe, as we guide you through the explosive final stages of the tournament. To make things even better, if you're watching the video version of the show

on Spotify or YouTube, you can also watch all the goals and the best bits of the action as we discuss the games. A first for podcasting. Just search The Rest is Football wherever you get your podcasts. Hello everyone, it's Gary Lineker here from The Rest is Football. Just a quick message to tell you all about the Club World Cup tournament that's taking place in the US at the moment.

It's 32 of the best teams from all around the world battling it out to be crowned the best side on the planet. We've reached the knockout stages of the competition which means all the big guns will be going head to head. Manchester City, Real Madrid, PSG, Chelsea and Bayern Munich are just some of the sides vying to lift the trophy. Join myself, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards and our expert out in America, Alex Aljoe, as we guide you through the explosive final stages of the tournament. To make things even better, if you're watching the video version of the show on Spotify or YouTube, you can also watch all the goals and the best bits of the action as we discuss

the games. A first for podcasting. Just search The rest is football wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back everyone. Lovely to have you back. Here's a question for you, Marina. Now our producer Neil writes down these questions and he puts headings on each of them. And just so you know, this is under the heading, Hitler's head. Okay?

Very promising. Exactly. We've done the shipping forecast. Yeah. Now we have to do Hitler's head. And Abigail Knowles has this question. Do games companies need to ask for permission to use the likeness of Hitler and Mussolini, and does anyone get paid for this?

They don't get paid for this. First of all, can I really be talking about Hitler's image rights? But here we all are. We've talked about worse. Once it's over 80 years, you're out of copyright. Hitler's out of copyright. So it does even say someone who isn't Hitler or Mussolini, someone who might have had some sort of rights to images. Let's say, let's say, Emmeline Pankhurst. Emmeline Pankhurst. Yeah, so she's now out of copyright. Emmeline Pankhurst is out of copyright. Having said that, there are cases which are more relevant to this case, and we'll come to one of them.

In German games, actually, you weren't allowed to depict senior Nazis, and there were certain versions of different games in the UK and Europe. It should be pointed out that lots of sort of war-type games that do have, you know, you'll see Hitler, you'll see Mussolini, you'll see kind of various other Saddam Hussein, Noriega, all sorts of people. Yeah, Hitler's face was dark in certain games because in order for it to be sold in Germany, it was just a few years ago and they've stopped saying that you can't use any likeness of Nazis, they're going to consider it on an individual basis. You can now see Hitler because

it's been judged to have sort of autistic merit and to be worth it. I mean, if you couldn't show Nazis these days, you couldn't show anyone, could you? No. No, you're quite right. There's a really funny case actually, which relates specifically to games. In one of the Call of Duty games, which were made by Activision, in, I think it's Black Ops 2, they have General Noriega, Manuel Noriega, who was the Panamanian dictator. He was behind bars and still alive at the stage. He's now dead. And he tried to sue Activision. He said his right to publicity was violated because he was being depicted

as a kidnapper, murderer and enemy of the state. Where's the line, Manuel? But anyway, he said it was damaging to his reputation. He was in a prison cell when he did this. Imagine, by the way, imagine getting that email. Yeah. Imagine the lawyer at Activision and you have to just go into the CEO, just go, and the CEO goes, okay, guys, I think we're done. Any other business anyone? And the lawyer just going, yeah, do you know what?

I did just get an email from General Manuel Noriega threatening to sue us. Well, he managed to get a lawyer to take his case. And do you know who the lawyer who took Activision's case was? Oh, who? Rudy Giuliani. Really? Yeah. Anyway, it was heard in an LA court and it was thrown out on grounds of free speech.

But Giuliani, who obviously went on to slightly besmirch his own reputation, he fought this and said, this is, first of all, it's ridiculous. He didn't say what I would have said, which if you see the footage of Noriega in this game, it's like, mate, you're way thinner and your skin looks great, which, let's face it, was not your selling point. Take the win. But anyway, he was fussy about it, Noriega. But Giuliani argued that just because you've been in history, if you've been in history, if you're such a significant figure, you're in history, you don't own history. All leaders essentially forfeit their right to sort of,

to saying, oh, I own my image. The examples you were giving at the time with George Bush or Obama, they can't own their rights because you're part of history and you don't own history. Anyway, and- They'll try, they'll try. I don't know what, I mean, you have no idea what a side of war case GD Arnie would argue now

But it might not be the winning one. But at the time he was in the game now I'm afraid he would be in the game probably looking great with a full head of black hair that doesn't drip down the side of his face And at any point genuinely a dictator did try to sue over their image rights and it was thrown out of court. But we were saved by Rudy Giuliani. We were saved by Rudy Giuliani. Which means we are allowed to portray Hitler. Yeah. Thanks, Rudy.

Richard, this is one view. We may have differing views on this. Alexander Andrews asks, in an interview, Brett Goldstein said that he thinks Shakespeare is terrible and that the plots are ridiculous. Do you agree or does the continued influence of Shakespeare on contemporary media justify the fact that all kids still have to learn about his works? Hmm. I mean, listen, I haven't seen Brett's full interview. I imagine it was more nuanced than that. Yeah. I can't imagine Brett going, yeah, Shakespeare is terrible. Listen, I mean, the thing we know about Shakespeare is it's no Ted Lasso, Brett. We know that. Hmm. Okay. Listen, we're

going to get your take on it. I see that, of course, a lot of the great plots of history are present in the works of Shakespeare, but a lot of the great plots in history were there before Shakespeare started. The language is extraordinary. Is that a useful thing to be able to teach to kids? I think sometimes you do slightly more harm than good teaching Shakespeare, because I certainly didn't understand what it was that I was reading at that point, and it put me off delving into Shakespeare for many, many, many years.

Cause I thought, well, yeah, I've seen this and it was boring. So I don't need to look at that again. I don't think my brain was at the place it needed to be when Shakespeare was introduced to me. Now I look at it and you can see Shakespeare in productions and you can just absolutely revel in the beauty of the language. But yeah, I think in terms of the continued influence of Shakespeare, I don't think there is one. I think that the great plots of history that Shakespeare absolutely used and did great versions of are in our culture anyway, and that's what actually informs our culture

rather than Shakespeare himself. I'm amazed you don't think of it as like the most successful entertainment format. I absolutely think that and I think the fact that it's British I think is great I think you know if the greatest playwright in the world probably if you were to take a fair poll across the whole world Shakespeare might be the one that is remembered. It makes me feel incredibly happy. The idea that he might come back now and see how he is still looked at. In the Tardis? Yes, in the Tardis, exactly. Like the Van Gogh episode.

But you know, as so often, there have been many amazing playwrights, but our culture likes to channel everything into one place, one lightning rod, and to say this is the thing, this is theatre, this is how you do it. Everyone else was terrible. Shakespeare is the leader. They don't say that. But we do because... Shakespeare is a banger and people will turn out and watch the plays and they love them and there's a reason they are hits, Richard. Because of the band.

Yeah, he's got a great brand. Tell you what, William Shakespeare's got a great brand and he's made a lot of hits and that's why people will turn up. But people go and see all sorts of other things as well. From that era? No, they don't go and see like lots of Christopher Marlowe. No, but that's what I'm saying. He has subsumed every single thing that happened in the 200 years before him and probably in the 150 years after him. Everything gets sucked into the, which is not his fault by the way, he was just good

at writing, but everything gets sucked into the Shakespearean vortex. So that is representative of what theatre was and what culture was at that time. That's what I'm saying is there's a lot of people in his shadow who might have written stuff that we go, actually this is a, it's like when you listen to an act. But there's nobody anywhere near as good as him. He is a genius of completely, you know, a category of one. Do you think? Yes. Yes. In theatre, yes.

Because he was so prolific and yet brilliant. Yes. And because he was so accessible and because it was funny and deep and all sorts of it. And you wrote so many different kinds of things. I mean, funny is a stretch. Oh, no, don't be silly. It is funny. It was funny to them. They laughed a lot. You don't have to love it now. To the question and what Brett is saying there, I think, about teaching it to kids specifically, is that does it do more harm than good? Is what I would say. I didn't understand what it was that I was reading or seeing when I was 14.

Did your mom not say to you? My mom? My mom was not looking at Shakespeare. No. Yeah, she was reading Jackie Collins, you know, and Jackie Collins, now we're talking. But she was a teacher. Jackie Collins, you know, and Jackie Collins, now we're talking. Jackie Collins? Yeah, she was a teacher, there were different things. But she had me, all her books went around my school. But listen, but did your mom not think, did she have views about it

being taught in school? Well, my mom was a primary school teacher. Yeah, okay. So yes, they were not doing an awful lot of Shakespeare. My mom was a bit more of a very hungry caterpillar than the two gentlemen of Verona. What is your view on, do you think it turns generations off? It depends on your teacher, doesn't it? I loved it most at university, because I read English at university, I loved it most at university, but I loved it through school.

And they started us off, you know, we got started off on things like Midsummer Night's Dream, which is sort of fun and you know, it does depend what you start off on things like Midsummer Night's Dream, which is sort of fun. It does depend on what you start off on. As always, these things depend on a teacher and depend on someone bringing it alive in a fun and contemporary way. Just helping you like, it's a little bit like, I don't know, anything to which there's a knack, anything that requires practice or anything. There's things in sport, there's learning how to do kind of mildly cryptic crosswords.

If someone helps you in… Learning how to watch cricket, for example. If someone helps you in and helps you and doesn't act like a great big gatekeeper and lets you get lots of stuff wrong, then I think those are the people you want as your kind of spirit animal. Oh, for sure. I'm not sure. Listen, I know lots of teachers listen to this, so if you are an English teacher, I'd

be fascinated on your take because I'm not sure they have the time in the curriculum to actually do that anymore and to kind of have an open lesson where we just sort of find our way into Shakespeare. So my view is slightly he has done a disservice, but then I don't know what we do, like National Service when we're all 22, when we all have to do a Shakespearean play there. I was in... I'd love it if that was British National Service. You just got to do some Amdram. Yeah. That would be really actually a very civilised...

You read Shakespeare. Mark of a very civilised nation, you've got to do an Amdram Shakespeare play. Yeah, and watch the whole of Blackadder. BTS have had to do military service, you know. Yes. All we have to do is watch Twelfth Night. I was in Twelfth Night when I was at school. So I was the Duke of Ceno. I was at school. What were you? I was the Duke of Cino.

Were you? Yes, if music be the food of love, play on, give me access of it. I'm aware. That's suffocating the appetite, may sick and so die. I won't do the whole play. Imagine. Why is the podcast today two and a half hours long? I think Richard Dutty did the whole of Twelfth Night.

His party trick. I love writing, I love words, I love plots. As you say, I love brands that are enormously successful. I don't think I've ever quite climbed the mountain of Shakespeare and I think a lot of it goes back to when it was introduced to me, it was not introduced in a way that I was comfortable with. The teachable moment. Yeah, I don't think it was.

I mean, I look back on the 15 year old me, I don't think I had any teachable moments about anything apart from maybe the 1985 FA Cup final. It's probably about it. So I think that maybe if I'd found Shakespeare slightly later on, I might have found a bit more in it. We're agreed he's a banger. We're absolutely agreed there. We're agreed he's a huge franchise.

I spent last summer in Stratford-upon-Avon. They love the agreed there. We agreed he's a huge franchise. I spent last summer in Stratford upon Avon. They love the dude there. And you know, it's very meaningful that, you know, this incredible talent is British. But yeah, I have some empathy with Brett. I think it's very important the order in which you introduce children to literature and to theatre and stuff like that, especially kids who whose hearts are not open to reading particularly at that stage. I think it's very, very easy to put people off very early. But if there are English teachers listening to this, you will know far more about it than us. I'd be fascinated to know your take on how it works, why it works. If you turn one kid onto it, you've never been turned onto it, and there's always kids where it just hits them, there'll be a scene or there'll even be a line,

and the kid just goes, hold on, sorry, the world can be this, you know, we can tell that story and we can use words in that way. Then it's sort of worth it. But to turn a whole generation of kids off the greatest playwright, I think sometimes is the effect. But I am not the expert. The final question for you Marina from Tim Kennington. He says, I just went to see 28 years later and there's a scene that takes place in an overgrown happy eater. Oh happy eater. I loved happy eaters. Beside being a huge nostalgic hit, always my favorite roadside eatery as it had a play area inside, it got me wondering whether people still own the rights to

defunct places and brands and how you go about getting permission to use them. Is there a group that owns a load of discontinued businesses or is it more of a Wild West? So this is like Hitler's head for Happy Eater. It's a little bit of both actually. Happy Eater was like a roadside cafe and they would give you, I had the Happy Eater badge for many of which I loved and you've got a little lollipop if you finish your plate. That might have been Little Chef. Oh yeah, Little Chief as my sister always used to think.

One of my sisters used to think it was called Little Chief and they actually merged. Happy Eater and Little Chef? I didn't know that. Yeah. Well, they closed in 1993 because they merged with Little Chef. And that's now also closed. Apparently, a Kuwaiti company, Kaut or Koot Food Group, owns both of those brands. And they continue to update them with the intellectual property office in the UK. So you do actually have to ask. I don't think it would be terrible by the way. There were a lot of brands in Stranger Things, you know, because when we've talked so much

before about how you use brands in your books for world building, Stranger Things used so many brands from that specific period in America, you know, and there's funny sort of little in jokes like New Coke, when Coke relaunch, or Eggo's, which you know, the waffles, the frozen waffles that Eleven really likes. Some of them they didn't ask and they just used them. Often brands, if you try and ask them, can we be involved, it's almost, it is one of those things like it's, you know, better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission because they say, well, no, how are we being used?

It's just like, by the way, shut up, you're a happy eater, okay? You're not even around anything anymore. Okay, I get it if it's, you know, you're in a James a James Bond movie and you know are we the villain or whatever it is but this is something. Does Scaramanga run a happy eater on the A23? Actually his island would have been a great location for one you would have loved to have come around the corner on one of those and thought oh thank god I'm gonna have the pancakes with the fake maple syrup and it's gonna be delicious. Fakal syrup. Do you remember when they had the mall in Stranger Things and they had so many brands in that and they had like a Dairy Queen, Orange Julius.

I don't think, they were absolutely thrilled, anyone who was in that, because you're on the most popular show on Netflix and you've done really well. By the way, I will say, because we'll finish up here, but one of my favorite museums in West London is the Museum of Brands. My favorite museum. I absolutely love going and this is maybe what to visit again because I also take my children, I think you haven't got a crude enough time in your lives yet to be nostalgic about these things, whereas I can't walk around without going, oh my god that can't come up. If people haven't been, if you are in London, yeah it's sort of like in a little

muse in Notting Hill, the Museum of Brands, you can look it up and it's not massive, but it essentially takes you through the last kind of 150 years via packaging, via kind of, you know, you see that you see like Twix rappers from the 1920s. And, you know, it's really, really, and you'd always get to the decade that you were born and suddenly like your heart just flips. Yeah. And you go, oh my God, I recognize that. It's so evocative. Brands are such a huge part of world building. So it's very cool that I haven't seen 28 years later, but I'm going to see it this week. But it's very cool.

It's got overgrown happy eater. Thank you, Danny Boyle. Yeah, thank you very much. Danny Boyle's had a few happy eaters in his time as well. He knows, he knows. I think that's us done, Marina. It is. Well, we will see you next Tuesday, but we also have a bonus episode if you are a member of our club,

which you can join at TheRest is Entertainment.com. This week is about summer hits. Summer hits, the sound of the summer. Summer. Infuriating but catchy. Other than that, we'll see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday. This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky. Sky is home to the shows everyone is talking about and plenty you haven't discovered

yet. But what really sets it apart is how it makes your whole entertainment setup feel smarter, slicker, better. With the new SkyGlass TV you don't even need the remote. Just say the name of a show, genre or actor and Sky finds it instantly across all your apps and channels, no scrolling or forgetting where you saw it last. Even from across the room, voice control works. So whether you're making tea, loading the dishwasher or the remote's vanished again,

just say, hello Sky, play Poker Face or whatever you fancy and it's already on by the time you sit down. Or add it to your playlist, maybe succession for power plays and poisonous one-liners or the white lotus for something sun-soaked, sharp and unsettling. Either way it'll be there, ready when you are. Skyglass doesn't just make things easier, it makes finding your next entertainment favorite feel effortless. Visit sky.com today.