The Rest Is Entertainment - Is Strictly Going Alt-Right?

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Will Essex wide-boy Thomas Skinner derail Strictly Come Dancing? What does the all-out-war between the Beckhams and their eldest son tell us about modern celebrity? Real Housewives returns for a London run - should we care? Amid seemingly never-ending controversy Strictly Come Dancing have booked former Apprentice star Thomas Skinner. Will he BOSH his way to Glitterball Glory - or is JD Vance’s new pal about to crash out? The Beckham-Peltzs renewed their vows in LA this week, but Brooklyn’s family were nowhere to be seen. How will Britain’s favourite family redeem themselves? And will it all come out in Victoria’s upcoming documentary? Real Housewives of London arrived on our screens last night on Bravo. The show is a hit across the world - what does it tell us about female friendships? The Rest Is Entertainment AAA Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to our Q&A episodes, ad-free listening, access to our exclusive newsletter archive, discount book prices on selected titles with our partners at Coles, early ticket access to future live events, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestisentertainment.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestisentertainment. The Rest Is Entertainment is proudly presented by Sky. Sky is home to award-winning shows such as The White Lotus, Gangs of London and The Last of Us. Requires relevant Sky TV and third party subscription(s). Broadband recommended min speed: 30 mbps. 18+. UK, CI, IoM only. To find out more and for full terms and conditions please visit Sky.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Video Editor: Kieron Leslie, Charlie Rodwell, Adam Thornton, Harry Swan Producer: Joey McCarthy Senior Producer: Neil Fearn Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello everyone, this episode is brought to you by our good friends at Sky. Now, whether you're dancing through life in the Emerald City for the first time or flying back for a magical encore, Wicked is now on Sky Cinema and with a Skyglass TV, Oz feels closer than ever. Bring the gravity-defying Ballads home with a Dolby Atmos soundbar built in for a truly cinematic experience. The high notes and the harmonies have never sounded better. Skyglass automatically adapts the picture and sound to whatever you're watching. Brumsticks whoosh faster, ballads hit harder, emeralds gleam brighter. And with voice control, the real magic is doing it all without lifting a finger.

I love the idea of ballads hitting harder. It couldn't hit harder. Just say hello SkyWicked and it's showtime. Enjoy the enchanting sights and sounds of Oz in full 4K picture quality on Skyglass from the best seat in the house, your own. And if you want a smarter TV without lifting more than an impressed brow, head to sky.com. Requires relevant Sky TV subscriptions, broadband recommended minimum speed, 30 megabits per second, 18 plus, UK Channel Islands and Island Ban only. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me Marina Hyde.

And me, Richard Osman, good day to the Marina. Oh, you're going old-fashioned. How are you? Yes, I'm not bad. I'm not bad. How has your week been? Apart from this heat, or hasn't it been hot? I mean, I love the heat, but, you know, it is. It's ongoing. And we have a country without air conditioning. Yeah. Something's got to be done about that at some point.

This is air condition. I'm sitting in an air-condition place right now. Let's never leave. That's a really good idea. Yeah. That's why podcasting is grown, because everyone's just wanting to get out of the heat. Anyway, listen, we're here to talk about the latest, freshest show business news. It's a lowbrow festival today, Richard.

It really is, isn't it? Even for us. We've got the Beckham developments in the Beckham Family Feud after a quite astonishing Vow Renewal Ceremony, involving Brooklyn and Nicola. You love a Vowal Renewal Ceremony. Well, they didn't happen in the old days. This is something that's entirely related to magazine buy-ups and online and social media. Yeah, the only time they used to happen is when a marriage was seriously failing.

Yeah. Or someone have forgotten to buy something for Valentine's Day. Now it's PR. We're also going to talk about the Real Housewives franchise, as Real Housewives of London has just launched. We're going to talk about the history of that. What it means, what it is, it's a very peculiar. It means. It means everything but also nothing. Yeah. And we're also going to

Teddy Who's going to win Strictly Come Dancing this year. The line-up has been announced. I think there are a couple of curveballs in there, which we will be talking about. Tell us something about British television, I think, and British culture. We will go through all of that later on. But should we start with the Beckham's? Or should I say the Beckham Peltzes? The Beckham Peltzes.

Now, we've discussed before in the podcast, the sort of Beckham family feud, the idea of a feud between the original Beckham family, the OG Beckham's, And Brooklyn, the firstborn, and his wife, Nicola Peltz, they married three years ago in a big ceremony. And ever since then, there have always been rumours of this feud. Now, if they were plausibly denialable when they didn't turn up, Brooklyn and Nicola didn't turn up to any of David's sort of several 50th birthday celebrations, if it was plausibly deniable, then it definitely, definitely isn't now. because this week, Brooklyn and Nicola unleashed a sort of huge photo dump of pictures

from their very big wedding vows renewal ceremony. That's a very quick wedding vow renewal ceremony. It's almost like it's making a point about it, is that me? Because after three years, what is it that's happened in the relationship that you're thinking, you know what, I'd love it, I would like to. I mean, I say to Ingrid all the time, if I could marry you every day, I would.

But I'm not going to then do it. If you know what I mean. However, you are quite a busy person, and I sense that these two have a little bit less to do. A little bit less to do than you. Little bit, little bit. Now photographs don't take a long time to develop. I don't think he's a photographer anymore, Richard. I think that's about four careers ago.

Both I and Brooklyn would beg to differ. So anyway, the ceremony, the annual ceremony, presided over by her aging kind of MAGA, activist, investor father, billionaire Nelson Peltz. So he was the sort of efficient. He was the officiator. He was a celebrant. She wore... That is, by the way, wow. If you're David Beck, I mean, that's really making a point, isn't it? Well, Nicola wore her mother's old wedding dress from the time she married Nelson.

First time or fifth time. I don't know. How many times did they renew? I don't know. Well, they've got so many children. They've got something like eight kids. So I don't think they had time for all that. But who knows? Maybe they did.

Maybe they did. The ways of Palm Beach are not our ways. But there were no Beckham's present at all. Apart from Brooklyn. he turned up. Apart from Brooklyn. That'd be a hell of a snub from the peltsist to the Beckham's if they'd done it without him. Obviously, everyone has sort of said, oh my gosh, this is enormous.

Because the reason we're talking about this at all, I suppose, is because what is Brown Beckham, okay, if you have to talk about what is their actual brand, because we hear about brand. And in fact, it's only because of them that we really talk about celebrities as brands. They were the first to do it. It's impossible to overstate how significant they were in, like, British celebrity culture and how much they caught, certainly caught a different wave of global celebrity culture. 25 years ago, no one talked about brands and narratives and all that sort of stuff.

I ended up writing about this on last week. Well, certainly there were brands and narratives, but not in terms of families. Publicists, maybe. Yeah, exactly. Not normal people writing in newspaper comments sections talk about, oh, this is the narrative, they're controlling the narrative, the brand. This has become completely democratised. Perhaps the royal family.

Maybe, maybe. Would have been the one that you might have started thinking this is a carefully controlled brand. Well, again, some common plot lines here with that particular one. Anyway, what their brand is, I think, whatever adversity is thrown at them, be it, I don't know, kicking Simioni or, you know, not having to leave the spies, girls, or whatever it is, they get through it and it becomes folded into the story and it's a learning experience because this is a family that sticks together. Their brand is honestly their family, and it has been, and you look at how the children are always being used to sell their different products, but the notion of the family unit is indivisible from their business interest. I mean, indivisible, more than anyone I can really think of, with the exception of the royal family. Or the Corleone's. Yeah, or the Corleone's.

Or people who work in organised crime. Yeah. The family is indivisible from their business interests. By the way, we're not suggesting that the Becon's work in organised crime or the Royal Family. No, no, no. Listen, we're not absolutely rooting it out, but we're not suggesting that they are. So all the products and the teams and the makeup and the image rights, all is really funneled through that, that central idea of this family that sticks together and plays together and does it. together. So what happens when there is so clearly and undeniably a schism? Because one of the weird

things about it all is that if you think about how they started the beckons when they were together, and we've talked about this before, so I'll skip over it relatively quickly, but they immediately monetised the relationship and the family. It was this is the years of OK magazine, and so they sold, you know, Brooklyn was sold before he was born. The fact of his existence as a sort of embryo was sold. And from then on, he, you know, the first, you know, the first baby pictures were sold. And then that was all that era. And then Simon Fuller takes over and it's the era of big image rights and Instagram, which they lean into. And so as the children have got older and they've got their own Instagram handles, you're always tagging the others in the

interest of selling things. And it's quite hard to know where the family stops and the selling begins sometimes. But there's an incredibly sort of tyrannical, I would say, presenteism about that kind of world. And you notice it all the time now. We've talked again about celebrity journalism and how people just say, oh, that's interesting. So, so and so didn't like that post. So you really have to show up and you have to like it. You have to tag it. You have to thank each other. You have to at each other and everything. And if you don't, then people start reading the runes. And there are a million criminologists who will look at it and say, something's afoot here. And they've been doing that for a long time and they did it over the wedding, Nicola and Brooklyn's original wedding in Palm Beach,

which, by the way, I feel we have to go back to the text messages. Obviously, there was a legal case against one of several sets of wedding planners they had. And if you actually go back to the text messages, these are some of the sacred texts of this. She does have the slight vibe, doesn't she, Nicola, of a right little madam. But anyway, we don't know. But she says, she's saying the roses aren't white enough. Oh, wow. The white roses are not white enough.

Really? I asked for our invite list. Invite. She's so rude about everything. He, Brooklyn, bless him. His texts are things like, we should do a Brooklyn burger, like double or single burger, and a Nicola burger, which is not bun, and it's lettuce instead of bun and meat for the girls. Nicola replies merely with a vomit emoji. That's fine. But that's like anyone's, by the way. Always like that. You feel for him, because like that's any wedding. Oh, yeah. And the mom trying to hide the cost of the makeup. In this case, it's $100,000. But, you know, but everyone's got this stuff. I've never had a family wedding ever where someone hasn't suggested, let's do like a groom burger and a bride burger. That's always, you know, that's the thing.

And then the bride goes, no, we're going to do finger foods. Yeah, it's going to be can of pays. I've said it. But the wedding planner did count to sue, obviously, because it's America. And I think that's just literally the law. I think it's the law. So literally bringing the law at all point. If you don't sue, someone sues you for not suing it.

Like a lawyer will sue you for not suing somebody. just for loss of earnings. So the wedding planner's counter sued and they said that the one thing that Nicola and their mother had specifically said was that Victoria Beckham could not be informed by any mistakes in the wedding planning especially to do with the guest list.

So there was obviously tension and they obviously found them difficult, right? Because one of the funny things about this viewed, I mean, not funny, I think it's tragic, any sort of family estrangement is just totally awful. The thing is we don't really know the real story, but one of the things is we know it exists, but we don't really know what it's about.

Were they difficult in the run-up to the wedding? What was there? It's very interesting to see that one of the guests who attended the Vara Neal, who's a great friend of Nicola, put on Instagram and then later deleted. This is the way that all these things happen. Go on, Colombo.

Put it on and said they've had the courage to walk away from a toxic family. Everyone's kissed the Beckham's asses for ages. Oh, man, come on. No, no, all this sort of stuff. You see, again, people follow the digital footprint of all of this. There was a point where Cruz Beckham said something like, yeah, it's Stephanie Stockholm syndrome.

People found these messages and then they were all mysteriously deleted. Quite apart from the family being away from that vowing year, a lot of the friends were as well. Because they move in that NEPO baby circle. Rocco Ritchie was not there. And Ace Gallagher was not there. The Gordon Ramsey clan, they weren't there. So all of Brooklyn's kind of traditional friends, they weren't there either. You can sort of see what's happened.

And you know, if you do come from a... Well, I don't know if you can. entirely see what's happened. In a way, you think you can see what's happened. But I'm not sure that people do walk away from completely functional families. Well, what I'll say is this. I think that he comes from a very strong family, that's for sure. And it clearly is a lot of love there, but a family that has probably made kids jump through hoops. They wouldn't ordinarily jump through. It's not like we're going to go see your nan on Sunday. Oh, God. It's, we're doing an okay shoot. Oh, God. You're going to be a photographer. I think that he comes from a strong

family. And you get to a certain age where you think, actually, I'm not the absolute result of my parents. I'm my own person. He's gone over to America to a very, very strong family. I love, can I just say, the American money snobbery where the beckoms are like, and nothing. Well, the beckons are worth... He's basically had to sign a pre-nup. I don't think David and Victoria thought that it would be their son, Simon, in pre-knut when he got married. The beckoms are worth about half a billion, and the peltses are worth an awful lot more than that. And I think they've accused the beckons of being tight. Like, okay, I wonder what tight means when you're in that wild.

It's so nuclear. So I think he stepped from one strong controlling family, but at least who we know, love him, into another very strong controlling family with a wife that he clearly loves. And so I imagine he's just thinking, do you know what, I'm my own person, I'm Brooklyn, and I've got a support network around me here. This is me making a point to the rest of my family. And, you know, the brothers and the sisters and the grandparents, that's what's going to bring it around. You know, you're a bet against parents, don't you?

but you can see with... Oh, no, they've unfollowed him, the brothers. The brothers have, but Harper seems to be one of the real hopes for the future, that Harper and Brooks' relationship is still strong. He, one of his few... But you see what's happening, don't you? All his tweets pretty much are about Nicola, about his hot sauce brown, Cloud 23, or about his in-laws.

But he did do a happy birthday to his grandfather, Ted. So there are still... There are doors open, Marina. That's all I'll say. But don't you see how we're talking about it? In the old days, people used to talk... say the beckoms were actually our new social royal family and that they were a reaction against all that kind of nepo privilege. They were, you know, meritocrat,

it was like a meritocratic thing. They were the styles we've chosen rather the ones that were imposed upon us. But now we're just talking about them like the other royal family with these, you know, a cousin could provide a rapprochement. I mean, it's become... It's like Jane Austen. Yeah. But one thing I would say, one thing I think is interesting is that obviously part of the permanent rolling myth-making was David's documentary, which was hugely successful for Netflix,

self-commissioned by David. Well, this is why we're talking about it this week, funny enough, what you're about to talk about, which I think is going to be very, very interesting. Yes, because as a result of the success of that, they thought, well, we'll do one for Victoria. Victoria's self-commissioned documentary, executive producer David Beckham. Well, he's proved himself. Yeah, he's proved himself. Yeah, he's had a hit.

He's produced Beckham. Yeah. That documentary is supposed to be coming to Netflix in the autumn. Now, his documentary did contain reference to adversity, but you're going back a long way. It's like two decades past some little liars accused you of an affair. Which reminds you Rebecca Luz is currently on SAS, are you tough enough? And she was complaining and said, they just keep asking about David Beckham. And you think, what do you want to ask you about?

What is it you think about your past and why you're booked that you think the SAS might be interested in chatting to you about? She's like, I mean, listen, anyway, that's... Yeah, it's a sidebar, but I like to it. I haven't watched this series yet, actually. So his adversity was like two decades ago, and they actually, even when they were doing the headlines about it, doctored the headlines for one of those sort of montage shots of, oh dear. But we know they're still together.

We know they love each other. And so that's a very self-contained form of adversity, and it's obviously in the past. How can she have a documentary coming out when, as I say, the family is indivisible from their business interest and they have someone who's completely torpedoed this idea of a family idol and how can it not just be four hours of her talking to camera

about what's happened? Well, there's three things that can happen. Either they can postpone the documentary and we've been talking to people at Netflix all week and no one... No one was saying. No one is saying anything. Or, so that's one thing.

Can I just say that they did with, even though it was only for a little bit of time, remember they did that with Megan because with her as ever documentary she was worried that, you know, it would pull focus from the wildfires. They can either put it Or she can use it as a documentary where she builds bridges,

which is a weird way to build bridges with your family is to do it via a Netflix documentary, but that's okay. Or she can go out all guns blazing and make it, this is my side of the story. And when that happens, of course, if you're Brooklyn Beckham and Nicola Peltz and Nelson Peltz, you just fund your own documentary. Yeah.

Then we'll have dueling documentaries. I think that there may well be dueling documentaries if that happens. But it's really interesting that normally it will look, completely Soviet if they don't spend a huge amount of time on it. But also, honestly, so much of everything is predicated on the idea of this, you know, the ties that bind of this family unit, that it's very, very difficult to see how it doesn't. What do you, I mean, you... Well, if it's me, it's easy, it's the perfect PR, which is you, don't forget you're the exact producer of this show, so you tackle it absolutely head on. You say mistakes have been made,

we miss Brooklyn, we understand that, you know, this, that or the other, you don't make any sort of accusations. You talk about how sad you are, how unfortunate the whole thing is, how you all miss him, how, you know, you understand how these things happen within families, and you put that out without ever really addressing what the root cause of it might be. You can't, I don't think you can go into why it happened, but I think you can just say, look, all families have issues and, you know, we've got our own, you know, that's what makes us human. But Brooklyn, we love you. You know, you'll always, your brothers and sisters love you. And, you know, we've always been a family. We will always be a family. Anyway, now let's look into Miami and

David. But don't you then have all her friends who are already starting to come out of the wordwork saying they've endlessly manipulated the media. They're doing it now. Look at them. They're doing it now because that has always been the Achilles heel of the Beckham, the idea that they are pulling all the strings and that they're manipulating the public and that there is a narrative that they've planned out and it's cynical and they're selling something that's not completely true. So you almost open the floodgates and it's very difficult because there are so many moving parts and they obviously have no control over what the other side says.

And the other side, God love them, and not the brightest. And that is, you know, we've got to acknowledge that. But I don't necessarily think you could imagine that Brooklyn himself would think as strategically as he might. And so what are you going to do? You're going to run the risk that they do a Harry and Megan or the interview or that their friends start coming out and saying, no, no, we're going to plant stories via our friends,

just like you have. I think it's fine. I think it's inevitable that that's going to happen anyway. I think it's 2025. Nobody, nobody anywhere in the world has changed their mind about anything for the last, I would say, 10 years. And nobody's going to change their mind about anything until about 2031. When we get over this little part of our culture. I think people did change their mind about the Beckham's. I think that people found them all sorts of ridiculous in their kind of peak tablet, their first peat tabloid era, maybe we should say, but they found them all kinds of ridiculous then, and they found them kind of boring and over-exposed or whatever it was,

you know, but they actually came to think of them as people who had done really well for themselves, who'd settled in the country, who'd gone to America, who'd done well, who did the right thing, who cued to see the queen, who, when she was lying in state, who finally, after years of raging behind the scenes, had been given the knighthood. And I think there was a certain sort of order and kind of respect bestowed upon the House of Beckham. which has now been torpedoed. I don't think it has.

I don't think anyone who respected the beckons no longer respects them, and I don't think anyone who didn't respect the beckoms now respects them. Well, what they think is that it's all his fault and that it's his and the wife's fault. That's what they think. That's what people think, that the beckons have done nothing wrong and it's all his and the wife's fault. And yet, do people become estranged from highly functional families? I am not sure.

The thing I would really, really like to see, if I could have a time machine, a couple of things I'd like to do. I'd like to go back to the Kensian Times or Victorian Times and go around places I already know and see what they look like then. I'd like to do that. But the other thing I'd like to do is go forward 300 years and see whatever version of Wolf Hall has been written about the Beckham's. I'd like that to be our kind of Tudors.

I'd like that to be the great tale of our times. They're the tutors of British celebrity. They are because they're like the sort of the dynasty that wipes everything away. Yeah. I mean, it's in a world of increasingly fast attention spans, they're really serving up some content, I'll give them that. Yes. I mean, they needed something.

But what they'd only served up for so long, they lived in an era without control at the start. Yeah. And actually, gradually, the story of the creation of this brand has been to control everything. And they managed to control their own image. And they managed not to be exploited by other people. They managed to own football teams rather than just be a gun for horror in football. You know, all of it has been.

been about building this kind of legacy. I mean, it's like succession with tattoos in some ways. Careful what you wish for. Yeah. Careful what you wish for. But they have become a form of royal family and the schisms and things, I think, reflect that. Sorry, that was just, that's trying to make it high back at the end. No, but listen, it's perfect. We have, we, no one would ever accuse us and not having our cake and eating it. You know, we got to do a nice sort of 25 minutes talking about the Beckham's and then make it sound like, you know, at the end that we're sort of Roland Barth or something. I wish.

That's perfect. Oh, you wish you were Roland Bart. No, I don't. No, I don't. So, it's so tiring. So keep your eyes out for what happens with that documentary. That's going to be a tale for our times. Yes, is it coming in the autumn or perhaps not?

And if it does, what's in it? And, you know, if you were writing this great saga, the supporting cast is incredible. You know, the big rapprochement, you know, may not come through Ted Beckham or Harper Beckham. It might come through Elton John, who is... He's done his best. He's taking them out for lunch in the sight of France. Brooklyn's Godfather. Yeah.

They had a long lunch. In Santrape. In the most centre table of a vast restaurant. Like, if you were picking a restaurant where everyone could possibly see this was happening, you'd pick this one. And he'd say, just put me right in the middle. Yeah. On one of those plastic lawn chairs.

Yeah. On a raised platform. Yeah. I'll help myself to the buffet. But he is still very close friends with Victoria and David, and he's still very close friends with Brooklyn. And if anyone can fix anything, surely, it's Elton. But the people who have really been helping out Nicola and Brooklyn with advice,

which makes you think all this is going to go away because, you know, I think they have sage advisers. Harry and Megan have been advising them. Megan and Nicola have had a number of heart to hearts. Harry has backed Brooklyn unconditionally if we're to leave reports. So, I mean, it is a hell of a supporting cast. I don't know if I believe that. Do you know all we need now to make this a perfect story for us?

Christian Horner turns up. That would be the dream. That would be good. All the streams to cross. There's something about a child not speaking to you. that it's obvious. I mean, I can't even imagine the thought of it. It's terrible. It's not a naturally spinnable story. You know, when Gwyneth Paltrow got divorced, she made it sound like she was doing in it in a more like romantically aspirational way than you even got

married. Yeah. I'm consciously uncoupling. What are you doing? Oh, you're getting married. Oh, oh, God, okay. Bore off. Okay. Oh, you obviously don't love your husband. Yeah. I love him so much. I'm divorcing him. But I don't think you can finesse a child just saying, screw you. Yeah, it's tricky. Listen, if anyone can, it's them. Shall we go to a break and afterwards we'll raise the tone with Real Housewives of London and a bit of Strictly as well? Yes, let's do that. The year is 1977, New York City. The city is broke and crime-ridden, but disco is king.

Two New Yorkers, one, a vivacious party animal with the world's greatest contact book. The other, a straight-laced lawyer with a keen eye for profit. Decide to throw the greatest parties that America has ever seen. scene from pop-up pioneers dancing grannies and white horses famously to dead bodies in the air vents and a criminal underbeddy that would even make the most hardened gangsters blush this is the true story of studio 54 the 70s new york nightclub that will always live in infamy and legend only available to triple a members on friday join now at the rest is entertainment dot com this episode is brought to you by sky sports the curtain's about to rise on a new premier league season the national

National soap opera with 20 clubs chasing glory, redemption or simply survival. And this year, Sky Sports will show 215 games live compared with last season's 128. It is an episodic drama with no time for rewrites, four fixtures a week and, for the first time, every final day fixture shown live, all in one place. Ten months of unscripted theatre, new heroes and old rivalries, from final act twists to title challenges fading to black. If football is theatre, this is the mainstay. age. Sky has 80% of all televised Premier League matches so you can watch your team more than ever. Fulham may not be up for best performance in a leading role, but I'll prepare an

acceptance speech, you know, just in case. Upgrade today to take the best seat in the house. All the highs, lows and controversial in-betweens unfolding live chapter by chaotic chapter. Search SkySports Premier League or go to sky.com. Terms apply. Hello, I'm William Durimple. And I'm Anita Arndon. The Wither. the hosts of another goalhanger show, Empire. And we are here to tell you about a recent series we've done on partition. On the 14th and 15th of August, 1947, Pakistan and India announced their independence from the British Empire. But as these nations gained their freedom, their rushed and violent division resulted in the deaths of well over a million people and the

forced migration of over 14 million more. It's a piece of South Asian history that many people are familiar with, but in this series, we want to explore it alongside four less well-known partitions which continue to affect the region in monumental ways. Yeah, you're quite right. In one episode, we dissect how Dubai almost became part of modern India. And in another, we're going to unpack the history behind the headlines about the conflict in Kashmir. We also explore how the separation of Burma from India is linked to the origin of the Rohingya genocide and how Eastern West Pakistan separated in 1971 to create Bangladesh. So if you'd like to hear more about the five partitions that completely transformed modern Asia

and how the weight of the memory of partition has been passed down through the generations, we've left a clip of the series at the end of this episode for you to listen to. Welcome back everybody. Last night, the first episode of Real Housewives of London dropped. You've seen it. I have to admit, I have not seen it. But it is an unbelievable franchise. I mean, the money it is made and the history of the thing. And I just thought I would like to hear what Marina thinks about Real Housewives. Well, it's sort of everything and nothing, like I said at the start. When they started this format, started by Bravo and there were two big shows at the time, Desperate Housewives, which you might remember had Terry Hatcher and Eva Longoria and various other people. Which is a drama, a sort of comedy drama. It was kind of camp and whatever. And then there was the O.C., which was a kind of teen, a drama epic for a couple of series. So the first one that came out was called the Real Housewives of Orange County. They thought, if we put these two things together, you're going to basically get the vibe. It was come up with by a guy who's made so much money. And this is what happens sometimes in TV. There was a guy called Scott Dunlop. And he was just a dinner party. He lived in a gated community in Orange County. And he was there. and everyone was sort of talking about getting their kids into college and everyone was talking about how difficult it was when you had a, you know, a maid who stole from you.

And he was just like, this is sort of extraordinary, but I think people would love the soap opera of this. So he shot his own sizzle reel. He called it behind the gates. It was a gated community. Actually, one of the people in it became one of the real housewives as well. So he shot this thing, but it wasn't, you know, female dominated. It was just kind of, this is what the kind of California middle class do. Bravo took it in, looked at the success, particularly of desperate housewives.

and just said, let's just do the women. There's, you know, and by the way, almost all housewives and not housewives. That's the one of the great things about the year. We're going to really come to that, because my God, this format has evolved. And so Scott Dunlop will say, look, Bravo were the ones, they were kind of the geniuses that turned what I had bought them into this desperate housewives type of thing. And so whatever happens with any of the many spin-offs of this show, and you can talk us through exactly what Real Housewives entails.

Whenever it is shown anywhere, Scott Dunlop is sitting. I presume behind even bigger gates. Gold gates. Literally, gold and diamond gates. If you haven't watched Real Housewives, briefly, it follows the lives of groups of women, friendship groups, both real and confected, in cities across the US and around the world.

And there are about 40 iterations currently of Real Housewives. They're 11 in the US and there's 30 around the world of which London is the newest one. Because we've had Cheshire here for ages, ever, way, Real Housewives of Cheshire. London, but London is the newest in the franchise. Up there in all the league where lots of footballers live. Yeah, London essentially gave us an excuse to talk about Real Housewives.

Yeah. And there are super fans, you know, who will watch six or seven of the ongoing series concurrently, which ends up being about 20 hours of programming a week. It is a sort of defining characteristic for a lot of people. And we've seen everything. Lots of wine tosses, cancer storylines, cancer scams. Divorces. Everyone gets a tagline.

There are now academic texts on this thing. And then at the end, there's a reunion show where they've seen how they've been portrayed. So right at the beginning of every series, they're almost sort of lined up like it's kind of Sky Sports Football. And, you know, there's almost like a squad picture with the biggest characters in the middle. Yeah, they all have their little tagline. Lisa Vanderpump is my favourite. She's got a dog rescue centre. She said, I love dogs, not so keen on bitches.

It's, I mean, it's, it is amazing anyhow. But so the vibe of it has definitely evolved and we'll come to that. But remember, reality TV, when this started, it's like right back in 2006 or whatever it is. It's unscripted drama. And what they do with that is they create recognisable narrative beats. So it's all working up to, in the episode one of the London one, as an example, it's all working up to a big party on International Women's Day, Swire, as they call it.

You can imagine how it turns out. Everyone knows that everyone knows that the cameras are on them nowadays. As in the whole of society knows that no one can be unself-conscious anymore on film. Yeah, viewers know. I'll tell you the people who don't know, and that's people of our generation, they still go, but it's all fake. You go, but nobody who's watching this is thinking that we're watching it like an Attenborough documentary. No, but there are moments of authenticity.

Exactly that. And they always really pop. And people are like, oh, wow, that was incredible. She couldn't hide that. So it's sort of a soap opera mixed with reality. And as I say, they've had every possible storyline within them. And when they started doing it on Bravo, you know how people say that sport is war by other means.

This was sort of sport by other means. This was aimed at women and gay men. It really reminds me of sport, yeah. It's something you can become obsessed with that, you know, doesn't in any meaningful sense matter. Goodies, badies, turnarounds, all sorts, yeah. Drama, yeah, all of it. Lots of feminists absolutely hate it.

And Gloria Steinem was like, this is disgusting. They've pit women against women. It's so retro. up in Real Housewives of Hudson Valley. That was really weird. That was a real vault fast, wasn't it? But other fans, by the way, real fans, Rihanna, Michelle Obama, Tilda Swinton, I mean, it's many comedy writers I know because of course, you know, these moments of heightened reality or fate reality. Anyway, the London one, there's however many women they're following six women, just as Pracey, if you haven't watched it, which you won't have, you

know, you're watching people shouting at their housekeepers, is my makeup too much? much. They tell you who they are. They know that they have to tell you who they are, because you've only got a little bit of screen in terms. You have to say, I'm like Marmite. People are going to love me or hate me. Or I'm never or not. I'm never fake. I'm never non-authentic. I always say it how it is. They tell you they don't even work. And you're thinking, but you are working. Because someone's come to your house. You're on, you know, real house-wise. You really want a product line. You want to be an influencer. You are working. They are all on the make. This is the hidden reality behind the whole things. In the same way with WWF,

You go in, you can be a heel, a good guy, whatever it is. But the more an audience likes you, the more likely you are to be in the next season of WWF. And the more likely you sort of move up that route. And the subtext of every single franchise of Real Housewives is they all want to be on the next series of Real Housewives. So they have to be the most housewife. They have to be because there is relegation and promotion in these things. You'll get people who are sort of come in tangentially and you're kind of going, oh, you're going to be a housewife next series.

Which means we're losing. we're losing somebody from this group. They get paid about, I mean, different people get paid different things, but about half a million dollars for a series. They get half of it up front and they get half of it after every single series has a reunion show at the end where they all sit and chat and talk over the highlights of the series. Because then they've seen the edit. Yes, exactly.

And that's when they get the other half of their money. And that's become so iconic, the reunion show, that when all of Trump's administration were caught on that signal chat about bombing the hooties, Andy Cohen, who hosts the union shows, literally went on social media to say, please let me host the reunion. Because the whole point is, everything's like Real Housewives.

Yeah. Andy Cohen's amazing, this is a sidebar again. He's amazing. He was a Bravo executive, really. Yeah. And now is, you know, does all the reunion shows. He does all the, what are we watching type shows, and is absolutely like a god across that universe of things.

And he is, listen, you know, I don't approve of executives becoming TV presenters. But he is really, he's, if there's a king of the Real House, wise, use and there are many, many queens. Yeah.

And certainly not only the husbands, that some of the wettest men you'll ever see. I mean, the two, on the episode one

or the London one, you see only two of the husbands who I think are probably the two wettest men in London. I've never seen anything like it. But that's the joy of the thing as well because you think, I mean,

the husbands have all sort of had to say okay and the kids have had to say, okay, we'll do it. And they've all got their different reasons for doing it. And again, that's stuff that you can,

you can sit at home and you can discuss that. You know, behind the fact that a lot of it is faked and you can see it's faked is reality and that's how people are watching people are watching the reality

behind the fake reality I agree it's really hard to explain it but they are these kind of fictional archetypes to some extent and some people think they're like Edith Wharton characters one of them said once oh I think it's like Andy Warhol's factory

you know the idea of these players that come in and out it's very interesting because I think probably it is I mean, I can't think of anywhere else. It is the leading manner in which middle-aged female friendship or frenemies or social hierarchies are interrogated by our culture. I mean, if you think of something that dominant, that there's, as I say, 40 iterations

of it happening right now, this is how we understand middle-aged female friendship in lots of ways. And when you watch, I mean, watch the London one and you'd be like, oh, my God, then that's the most depressing thing in the world. But actually, as you say, you have to strip away the fake reality and then you'll see behind it that there are people who are looking for love. There are people who clearly are much more strivy, much more striver. They're not as rich as the other ones. You know, the thing about working, because of course the whole point was they don't work,

but they are working because they work on the show and it's a huge amount of filming and all of that sort of stuff. And some of them have tried to unionise. Some of them have talked about labour practices. I mean, it's become so interesting. But the whole point of it is that there are so. some, there was like Bethany Frankel in the New York one, she was a real sort of striver, and she would sort of hiss at other ones, I actually work for a living. And it's become this

thing where they're all trying to do something. They've all got some edge because whilst it might have been fun to talk about women in a gated community who supposedly do nothing at the start, it has evolved with the times and with the economy and with all sorts of things that have happened in our world. And so now everybody is trying to make it. There's one that's a really interesting one, on Teresa Juducci, who was on the, I think she was on the Jersey one. And she was really rich at the start. And she would buy, you know, loads of furniture, all this sort of stuff. And then actually, several seasons later, she all served good drama, which is why she's still on.

But, you know, they'd lost all their money. She was having, she was the out there as the breadwinner. She was teaching her daughters to make stuff for their cake, for her cake business, or whatever it is. There's a woman with the cake business in the London one, and you get the feeling that she's not as rich as some of the other ones. And they're all, you know, otherwise there's lots of things the tropes are all the same. You know, those sort of grim walking handbag closets. I mean, no, thank you. The neon wall signs.

Or that sort of neon wall sign. That's the thing that, I mean, you see that in every episode of Real Housewives, but you see that in every episode of Escape to the Country as well. Yeah. The neon wall sign is the... It brings everyone together. Yeah, it's the worst. But there's one called Panthea.

Panthea? Panthea. Like Panthea Turner? Yeah, Panthea Turner. Panthea Turner. panthea in this one but she knows instinctively she more than any of them knows

that she must retain her position as you say so she knows that what she's going to have to do for the International Women's Day party is turn up late immediately start an argument like immediately like she literally is saying it as she's getting her coat off and she knows how to behave

like a housewife so as you say the level of artifice has become in such a way that but no one minds that anymore because that's all we have all of our culture is a simulation so what's the difference But it is. And again, for anyone of, you know, that whole generation who were born after Big Brother, it is easy to watch those things and go, oh, but I mean, surely you can see that that's set up. And yes, the point would be they can see that was set up. They absolutely can. In the same way, they know that wrestling is fixed, right? They know wrestling is fixed. But they also know behind the event that you see on television, there are real human beings, all fighting for contracts, all making money, all of whom have real friendships and not real friendships. And you can attempt to decode what the reality is. by looking at the non-reality. And that's what I find fascinating. It's drama in which you are not involved.

It's like, oh my God, this enormous drama just exploded on my friendship. What's that group? Except it didn't. I can just walk away from this any time I want. It's interesting how many people say, oh, I really got into it in the pandemic, or when my dad died, I started watching it. So many people come to it at a time of personal trouble

because it's escapist, but there's also something about it. Maybe when we're going through those dark times, what we want is these kind of grim, as in GRI double M as well as the other one. Fairytale archetypes. But it's sort of aspirational glamour and relatable heartache at the same time. They always try to make it not aspirational in a weird way. It's so rich and they've got all this money, money, money.

They talk about money incessantly in such a ghastly way. But what you're supposed to think is, you know, you're supposed to see that it's a flawed and unsatisfying world. And you always have been. And that's been right. That's the actual concept. And yet everyone aspires to be on it. Yeah.

And yet everyone... So that's what I mean by aspirational. It's not aspirational as an I would like to live the life that is being shown on screen. It is aspirational as in I would like to be a real housewife. Oh my God. That's one of my anxiety dreams. No, I wouldn't. But yes, I know what you mean.

And we see it and it's absolutely led to all sorts of things made in Chelsea anyways, Essex, all of this kind of stuff below deck. All of these shows, there is a fake reality to them. But because we don't just watch television passively now, because every single time we watch a television program, we could follow every single one of these people on Instagram. Okay, we can see what it is they're doing. We can find out what the truth is behind the fake truth that we're seeing.

And that's a fun game for people. That's really, really compelling for people. But I just have to reiterate, nobody is watching this thinking I am watching reality. But they are watching reality, but it's a reality that they will find from lots of different places. I totally agree with it. And I think that there's something very, as I say,

like the way we've been talking about it, it so obviously means nothing, and yet it means everything. It's very hard to think. But we, I know we have. But if you think about this show more than probably anything else is one of the most gift memed things on the planet.

If you ever see a meme or a gift and you don't know where it's from, it's from Real Housewives. Without any question. So what does it say about this, our particular era, our cultural moment, that this show, more than anything else, is the one to which people go for their,

little quick online reaction things and it's become a sort of form of a lexicography all of itself. I think that's really interesting and that those women create these moments that then just flutter off and mean something in your WhatsApp group or when we're talking about politics. It's really interesting. When I started writing about politics in a different way when I actually think I've sort of found my voice writing about politics in some ways is when I thought I'm no longer going to write about politics in the way that I've tried to before, which is to do it quite seriously. and try and copy lots of men who wrote about it quite seriously and actually always slightly looked down on you

because you didn't know something that happened with the Liberal Democrats in, you know, in 1989. And then I thought, but actually I just want to talk about it in terms of pop culture and filter it through that particular prison because I think everyone understands that. And also it's more fun and that's how we talk and that's how we live now. And it's a much more fun way of talking about these things. And I think cut through much more with people than anything I've been doing before

purely because of that. And I think about these things, time. I mean, the idea that the first thought of so many people when that Yemen signal chat was released was, oh my God, it's the Real Housewives, says something about the cultural impact of a show that, as I say, is everything and nothing. Yeah. And I think, you know, what reality is is going to become increasingly important in the years to come because of AI and all that kind of stuff and authenticity. And I think we always look at it the wrong way. And I think the success of Real Housewives is exactly the same as the success of wrestling.

is we are absolutely in on it. We understand that we're not being shown reality. We understand that we are measuring people against reality. And that, you know, I think this generation, I do think when we panic a lot about AI and kind of deepfakes and all this kind of stuff, and we should. But there is also a number of generations now

who are much wiser than us when it comes to passing what happens in culture and understanding what they're being told to believe, what they're being told wink-wink to believe, and what is actually happening. And so I think, weirdly, things like the real housewives have given whole generations a toolkit to survive in the post-truth era. Bloody hell, we're really...

I mean, really, okay. I mean, literally all we talked about are the Beckham's and Real Housewives. You think we're in this a restless philosophy. I wish I could say we got someone highbrow to finish on, but we're going to talk about who's going to win strictly. Tell me who's going to win strictly, Richard. So everyone has been announced now. I'm just going to go through people who I think we might have an opinion on

who listeners might have an opinion on this world. The first of him I have to mention because he is a hero of both of ours and a hero of children and adults throughout the land is Nitro from Gladiators. Harry Aiken Zariti is taken to the ballroom. I'm so happy he's doing it. Obviously, it won't be as important in his life

as bearing me on his shoulder into the Royal Albert Hoare. However... Yeah, that was his absolute highlight. Oh my God. He's the nicest person. He's absolutely terrific, and he had an injury, so I'm really glad he hasn't got an injury. Yeah. And he can do it now.

Because I think they were planning to have him on last year. So do I, yeah. And he was injured because he did the special, the Christmas special. I know that, but yeah, he's coming on. People will, I don't know if he can dance, but people will absolutely love him. I literally love him. He's wonderful. He's wonderful.

It's just that thing of whether people still, like, whenever we have gladiators on House of Games, you know, people would always, oh, they should have been gladiator thing, you should call them fire or Nitro. And I've always said, you know what, we'll just, well just, I'll, you know, I'll mention the gladiators every now and again. But, you know, it's seeing him as himself, it's like seeing Matt Morso, who's legend on what I lie to you and stuff. It's, you know, it's fun to see these people when they've got a personality, and he really has got a personality.

So he, I think, is going to be great. I'm going to tell you who's going to win when I get to the end of all of this. As I say, I'm not going to go through everyone. Danny Dyer, Jr. is on. D-A-N-I. The D-A-N-I. But it means, of course, that. will be seen Danny Dyer, senior, in the audience.

And that's almost as important sometimes, as strictly. He'll have a lot of views about having to sit there for seven hours every Saturday. I mean, this is the thing they never tell you. Yeah. That's not the most fun show. He won't keep it under his hat, I don't think. There is no way he's sticking around for the whole thing. I would say now to the Strictly directors, get your cutaways in early.

While you can. Because he will be in the car home by the time Chris Robshaw is on. Chris Robshaw, the England rugby. captain, former England rugby captain, Karen Carney, the former lioness, now the pundit she's on. I think people are going to like Karen Carney. It's always good to have a lioness on the show. And it's fascinating thinking about how Strictly Bookers kind of work their way through things. You know, you need your kind of temp holes. So something like Nitro is great because he's gladiators, everyone knows that.

Danny Dyer, everybody from a certain demographic understands that anyone who likes the kind of the more successful reality shows knows Danny Dyer. Then you do have people like Karen Carney and Chris. Robshaw for sports fans. Stefan Dennis is on for those of our generation. Paul Robertson from Neighbors. Don't make you feel good. Yeah.

If you can, essentially, if you know how the hook to Don't It Make You Feel Good goes in your head. If you're in your car now and you're a dog walk and you are singing that, then you are going to be voting for Stefan Dennis. Some interesting ones, Eddie Goldstein, who is the model with Dan Sindra. He's been on the cover of British Vogue. Levoire, the drag queen, is coming on.

to be an interesting one who's coming on is Thomas Skinner. This has been a lightning rod for controversy, Richard. Yes, it has been, I mean, that's really why we're talking about it, because I wanted to talk about it. I think it's interesting. So Thomas Skinner is that guy, the sort of cockney wide boy, he says Bosch all the time, he was first on The Apprentice. And now his social media is full of things about, you know, knife crime and all sorts of things.

So he has... And grinds that stuff. He's always up in the morning doing, you know, I'm up there ready. They're just sort of making content, really, aren't they? Exactly that. So it's an interesting one that because, as you say, kind of the strictly diehards up in arms that this person is on. But strictly has always been, you know, it's always prided itself on being diverse and inclusive. And it's done such incredible, genuinely, some of the best moments of TV in the last five years have been, you know, extraordinary things they've done with Rose Ailing Ellis and, you know, Chris McCausland and stuff like that. But it seems that the inclusivity has stopped for certain people where when it comes to booking someone like Thomas Skinner, which. Which is, and I make no comment on that other than say, it's interesting. Okay. I'll make a comment on it. Great. I knew you would.

This booking, I mean, you'd think they'd want a quiet life after the couple of years they've had with all the drama about that. No, this is not going to give them that. It's like they've imported the culture war into Strictly. I have to say, when I see people describing this guy as far right, I don't know, he's slightly passed me by it. I don't know a lot of stuff about him. But, and like a fascist, I do wish people would use these words correctly. But anyhow, I saw he went to a barbecue with J.D. Vance. I mean, J.D. Vance, like it or not, and I don't love it, is the Vice President of the United States.

That's a hell of a guess list. First of all, our research, when we did that more uncommon polling, and it found that strictly was the show, the big prime time show of, you know, that skewed, the audience skewed most right wing. That's correct. Okay. So I do think that we are seeing across the board, and this is, in terms of, like, people who were hired to be pundits on news channels, all sorts of things. There is a correction against the sort of quite prescribed certainties of the past decade. And you can see that people are thinking there's been some sort of vibe shift. We don't have to have, we're not going to do everything in the exact same ways.

We don't all, everyone's just like a sort of liberally approved person to go on TV shows, spouting a form of orthodoxy that actually everyone really agrees with. You know, he's still going to be dancing. he's not going to be, I don't know. I think it's quite interesting. I think we're seeing corrections and I'm interested that they would. I can imagine the meeting that went on where he was okayed. And I do think culturally it's probably good to have Thomas Skinner on a show where there is a drag queen

and there is a, you know, down syndrome model and there are, you know, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have him on that show in that group of people. And, you know, we're allowed to see these people on television. We're allowed to sort of, and also to have them mix with. a group of other people, the more you kind of entrenched somebody and, you know, the only people they can hang out with, the JD Vance, you know, that's when we have a problem in our culture. The problem in our culture is not that, you know, we're all too similar to each other. It's we've absolutely siloed everybody and strictly has been unbelievably good at

showing shifts in attitude, shifts in society, you know, just showing, not telling, always, always, always. And I think that it's not crazy. They've lent into the vibe shift. They've lent into the vibe shift. And listen, we may be in the same way that people thought it was a good idea having Donald Trump on The Apprentice. You know, maybe in five years' time, we'll all say, oh, my God, it started with strictly. Like, you know, Boris Johnson doing, have I got news for you, said that was a great idea. And maybe, you know, we'll say, why on earth did they do that? But I do think it's a booking that is controversial, but it'd be better if we lived in a world in which it wasn't controversial.

And we could get this group of 15 people and we could see their differences, that we can see their similarities. and we can see some empathy from everybody. But it's, listen, I get it. I get why people are exercised. I'm sure you will, but I'm sure that we will see those things that you've just said. But I do think that people will work really hard to look for controversy simply because you can write new stories about it. And it will be an incredibly noisy B plot to the entire series as long as he remains in. And after that will be a conspiracy as to how he was voted at.

Certainly, if I were a national newspaper or an online commentator, I'd be rubbing my hands with glee, thinking, great, I can use this to divide people. And my hope is maybe you can use things like this to unite people, because there's an awful lot of people in this country who disagree with each other. And that used to be OK. And if anyone can ever fix anything that's wrong with our country, it's strictly. This might be a step too far for them. But I think it's a very, very 2025 move to make. I will say that. I do think it's brave. I do think it's probably, in our culture, probably quite a good thing to say we're allowed to have someone on who we fundamentally disagree with on the show. We really, really are quite apart from him. If we move on to other people, George Clark, the YouTuber is on George Clarkie, who, you know, has like X million. I mean, whenever they talk about YouTubers, all they say is how many million followers are. But he seems to have a lot. His dad is managing director of Ardman animations. Oh, really?

So he's one of the few people who absolutely bridges the gap between KSI, because he works with KSI, and Wallace and Gromit. So he's absolutely, he's making money out of them both. George Clarkie, they call it. But again, you know, it's fascinating to see how that works. Addis Kingston, that's a classy booking, I would say. And Vicki Patterson, who I think will be great. People will absolutely love her if you're going to put a bit on.

If she can dance, she's a shoe-in. I don't know if she can. Ross King. Oh. It's on Ross King. He always does the Hollywood Report on the rain. I love Ross King. and people who know him always...

He's a trooper. Is he the other kind of trooper? We'll have to see. We'll have to see him once he gets his shoes on. Is he a super trooper? But he'll be fun to watch. But I'm throwing all my weight behind Christian Nairn, who is the Irish DJ,

but also is Hodor and Game of Thrones. Because I would never do strictly anyway. I always say I never have time to do all the training and have the affair. But Christian, you always think at 6'7, I'd be too tall to do it. Christian Nairn is 6'10. That's the tallest ever strictly contestant.

foot 10, Christian there. So I'm going to be cheering him on, on behalf of all the tall guys everywhere. Face turned up to him. All the tall guys unable to dance everywhere. Christian, I'm behind you. Or, you know, Jimmy Floyd, Hasselbank. But I do think that Thomas Skinner thing, I think, is we've talked a lot about sociologically and philosophically interesting things today. And I think that is another one. I think we just have to sit and let it be and have a little think about where our culture is and why it is where it is. whether this is the worst thing that's ever happened or not. Of course it's not.

And perhaps it's not exactly. Can strictly hold its fragile coalition together of viewers? I think they'll manage. I think they will. I think they will manage. It scoes, as I say, we used to skew Tory. Now scoes very reform strictly. So it's, you know, it's, I think that's an acceptable booking.

I really do. Richard, most importantly, because I value this, who do you think is going to win? I think if Eddie Goldstein or Vicki Pattinson can dance, I think they will be the favourites, but I think without that information, Vicky says she can't dance, but often they say they can't dance. But I'm going to take it or a word. I would say Danny Dyer. Any recommendations, Richard? I'm going to recommend, I always love it when a new sports documentary comes along on Netflix, and SEC, any given Saturday is my recommendation.

It essentially follows a season in the SEC, which is kind of the universities of the South, Florida and all around there. And it's just, I love those things so much. I love them because, in the same way, you know, real housewives, they introduce me to people that I don't know, and lifestyles I don't know. But also, because it's American sport, I don't know what happens. I have no idea who wins. And I don't really know who these incredible coaches are, who are getting kind of $18 million a year to Coach O University football team.

And I don't know who these players are who are, you know, heading off to the NFL to be on multi-million pound contracts. So I'm literally just watching a group of people that I'm just getting interested in with no idea what's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for that. And for the whole low-brow show, Richard. That's fun, wasn't it?

We will raise the... Forgive us, everyone. No, I love it. Yeah, I loved it as well. We will be doing a Q&A episode, as always, on Thursday. And speaking of lowering the tone, for our bonus, for our members, for our bonus episode, we are doing the whole story of Studio 54, the legendary New York Night Club that burnt so brightly for such a short time. Anyway, that's for our members.

If you want to sign up, it's the rest is entertainment.com. And for everyone else, we'll see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday. This episode was brought to you by our good friends at Sky, who've made something rather special. Yep, a TV and a smarter one at that called Sky Glass. No box, no dish, no cables creating abstract modern art on the wall, just one sleek screen that does it all.

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Hi, it's William Drimple here again from Empire, another Goldhanger podcast. Here's the clip from our recent series on the five partitions that created modern Asia. And it was deeply emotional. Sparsh picked up some pebbles from the village, which he made into jewellery, family heirloons for his family going down the generations, Because he was always saying, you know, my family doesn't have archives, et cetera. We lost everything in partition. And there's nothing that we have from Bela to show where we came from. But so he wanted to pick up something from Bela and make it into airlines for the next generations.

You know, three, four generations from now, they'll still have a piece of Bela with them, even if, you know, the relationship between India and Pakistan worsens again. And, you know, even if his kids can never visit Bela, they'll always have a piece of Bela with them. This connection with earth, dhirti, you know, they call it dhurti in India, and Zamin is the Udu word, exactly the same thing, but it is much more than just the earth. It is who you are, where you have grown from, where your forebears have grown from. And the number of people I know who have been lucky enough to travel across the border, and I count myself as one, who find it impossible to leave without a scoop of earth, and I have one too. You know, in Lahore picked up a handful

of earth and brought it back with me because I thought, you know, this is this is the stuff my grandfather used to walk on. To hear the full series, just search Empire wherever you get your podcasts.