The Rest Is Entertainment - Jeremy Clarkson For Prime Minister?

Episode Date: November 26, 2024

With Trump's election in the US, could we in the UK see a celebrity Prime Minister? And is Jeremy Clarkson that man? Who might the other contenders be if it were to happen? The iconic Jaguar car company has had a rebrand and it has been less than well received. What are the secrets to a successful rebrand? And finally on this episode we celebrate a format that is bucking the trend of declining audiences on linear TV, the quiz show. With their success only getting bigger, will they outgrow their traditional home? *** Final tickets available now for The Rest Is Entertainment Live at the Royal Albert Hall on 4th December. Get them at www.royalalberthall.com *** Join The Rest Is Entertainment Club for ad free listening and access to bonus episodes: www.therestisentertainment.com Sign up to our newsletter: www.therestisentertainment.com Twitter: @‌restisents Instagram: @‌restisentertainment YouTube: @‌therestisentertainment Email: [e-mail] Producers: Neil Fearn + Joey McCarthy Executive Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The epic return of Yellowstone is now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. You destroy me, you destroy yourself. Unlike you, I keep my promises. The wait is over. Yellowstone, new episodes now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Some things require a lot of work to grow, like plants, hair, babies, or your savings. But when you run a business, you already have enough on your plate. Scotiabank's Right Size Savings for Business account can help you grow your savings with ease.

For a limited time, open a new account and earn up to 4.65% interest for the first six months. Before you know it, your savings will grow without you even noticing. Ooh, which reminds me, I need a haircut. Conditions apply. Ends December 15th. Rate is annual, calculated daily and will vary based on account balance. Visit scotiabank.com slash rightsize savings for full details.

Welcome to the Orwell business. Billy Bob Thornton, Demi Moore and Jon Hamm star in a new Paramount Plus original series. The world has already convinced itself that you are evil and I am evil for providing them the one thing they interact with every day. You're all right. Here we go. From Taylor Sheridan, executive producer of Yellowstone. Get everybody back. You just put a giant bull's eye on this place. We rolled the dice one last time.

Landman, new series now streaming exclusively on Paramount+. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest Is Entertainment with me, Marina High. And me, Richard Osmond. It's so lovely to see you again Marina. It is lovely to see you Richard, how are you? Yeah, I'm not bad. I'm not bad, I'm getting very nervous about our Albert Hall show. Nervous, but excited.

Neither of us are natural performers. We are surrounding ourselves with natural performers, I'll say that, lots of fun celebrity guests. I'm gonna wear a big dress and a large number of pieces of Christmas paraphernalia. Oh are you? Okay, I'm gonna wear a Christmas jumper. We've got an amazing band, the Sensation Band,

who played at my wedding, who were like, they are the best band I've ever seen in my entire life, if you're looking to book a band. So there are going to be lots of Christmas songs. Yeah, I'm terrified. But should we not worry about it too much? No, it's going to be really fun. It's a celebration.

It's fun. It is going to be a party. And it's going to mark the official opening of the Christmas season. I'm just agreeing that. Everyone knows each year that Christmas starts when the rest is entertainment, live show happens, 4th of December. Enough of that, what are we talking about this week? We are going to talk about the

possibility of the emergence of a kind of celebrity politician in our country, whether someone like Jeremy Clarkson has the potential to kind of find a way through. I mean if I was going to click bait it I say we're going to ask the question could Jeremy Clarkson be Prime Minister? Yeah and you have just done that so thank you very much for that. What else are we going to talk about? We're going to talk about the Jaguar rebrand and whether a lot of people have said it's the worst rebrand in history so we're going to talk about what happens when a brand collapses

or perhaps Jaguar have been cleverer than everyone else we shall find out. And then I'm also going to talk quiz shows which are the great new heroes of British television and I'll say why and what might happen next with them as well. So quiz shows. I am going to listen to that conversation and interject occasionally. Exactly that. So celebrity prime ministers. Yes, last week the farmers march on Whitehall to protest about the changes in inheritance tax to farms. Jeremy Clarkson appeared at that march. I suppose that's probably the hook on which we're hanging this. And I suppose the question is, could someone in our political system, which makes it very, very difficult, by the way, for people to emerge from outside...

Because in America, of course, they have a celebrity president. That is a president who was not a politician, was known to the public and use that public leverage to become president, to run for president and become president. So they have a definitive celebrity president. So Reagan, you could say was a celebrity president, less so because he'd been slightly more of a party animal, by which I mean, someone who was interested in the party rather than the party animal. But Trump is an actual celebrity became president as you say harder in the UK Although I'll talk about various reasons why I think it's possible now, but the question is

Could it happen in Britain and if it did who would it be with and Clarkson as you say at that farmers march? Various people started thinking wow a lot of people seem to like him one of the people who sort of said Oh, I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking about this is a guy who I've been talking to this week who is so interesting. He's called James Kanagasorium. He's the chief research officer at Focal Data. He is a pollster. He coined the phrase the red war. That was my decorator. Yeah. It used to be called a signature wall. A feature wall. Yeah, that feature wall of British politics. He has also talked about Stammer having been elected on what he's called the Sandcastle Coalition in that it's very wide, but it's very shallow and it could easily be washed away. He's mega, mega interesting.

And I was talking to him about celebrity politicians in general and Clarkson in particular. He pointed out that one of the really interesting things is that because of all the kind of convulsions and political turnover we've had since 2016 onwards, our political cycles have gone miles faster than our celebrity cycles. So we've torn through like tons of politicians and broadly speaking in kind of middle-of-the-road terms, the celebrities are the same, okay? So we've got the same presenters, the same sort of rockers, the same stars. The celebrities have had more staying power than the politicians which... Are you saying that celebrities have more staying power than Liz Truss? Yeah, unbelievably people have been famous for longer than Liz Truss. Yeah, I've done pilots that have gone longer than Liz Truss's premiership.

So many people have been thrown on the scrap heap in terms of politics, so it's inevitable that despite the obstacles in our system, celebrities and people who come from outside politics are being considered. And also the fact that people do feel that politics is broken and that despite, you know, sort of landslide victory, it's not immediately clear how that feeling of brokenness is going to change.

And people want things to be different. And in terms of the way our system works, you know, famously it's always been,'s always been impossible for an outsider to really come in and be prime minister because you had to be leader of the Tory party or the Labour party, certainly for the last 80 odd years. But as your friend James will attest, the speed of the political cycle means many things,

but it means that actually those party authorities have almost completely disappeared. If you play to your base as a Tory or Labour politician now, that base is very small. Many more things can happen than used to be able to happen. Because the one thing people always say, yeah, but the thing is, you know, you could be up at that in the polls, but as with like with reform, it's hard to win the seats in in Westminster, it's hard to actually win in a series of constituencies. That is going to go as well. So that's just a thing that we think can't be done. But of course, it can be done because

so many people will gladly gravitate towards something new and shiny and something that seems to solve. So many people are unhappy. It's probably the driver of it all. Which has been the driver of politics forever. But by and large, you then had a binary choice between red and blue. And now, in our world of social media, you have greater choices. So all I'm saying is that opens the door for a celebrity to A, start their own party and get into power in a way that I haven't been able to do before. But don't forget, Sunak and Stama were both fairly new MPs when they became leaders of their parties, certainly much quicker than, than it had ever been the

case before. And so you could also, if you haven't to join the Labour Party or the Conservative Party and be elected you could become leader of one of those parties fairly quickly in a way you couldn't have done 10, 20, 30 years ago so there I think there are two absolutely in that way that Johnson whilst being a creature Boris Johnson whilst being a creature of politics in lots of ways was also a sort of outside of figure and then suddenly was kind of surfaced you know know, ineluctably to the top. Yeah, there's a sidebar which is people might say, oh, but Johnson and Farage celebrities,

I don't think either of them are. Johnson was a journalist and he'd been on one episode of Have I Got News For You. Farage was a trader or something and he became known through politics. Let's talk about what we're also talking about when we're talking about the subject, which is why people feel that they're not really politicians is because so much of politics is now vibes based we talk about things in terms of personal atmospherics really and so Johnson might seem like not a politician Farage might seem like not a politician as though although as you say he has been a politician forever and the vibes of Clarkson if you can what I was gonna say

if you're interested in vibes based then that's entertainment That's all entertainment is that's why people become famous. It's Riz is being wise based. That's all it is So those two things are about to collide stories, which we talk about a lot and people in politics are always saying well You know people have just failed to tell a story You know Clarkson has made with the Farm Show an everyman story out of farming, which you would think would be quite hard to do. And we've talked before about him and his producer, Andy Wilman, and there's a sort of story of the week. You know, something goes wrong, it's fixed, but there's ongoing kind of series plot lines. But he is able to tell a very compelling

story. Anyway, talking to James Kanegasorum, he said, what Clarkson can do is he has drawn together different strands of Britishness that elsewhere are completely sort of bifurcated, right? So when you ask kind of young urban, maybe centre-left professionals, you know, what's the high point of Britishness? They'll say something like, you know, Danny Boyle and the 2012 opening ceremony and blah, blah. And then if you ask other people, they might say the people like who are drawn to Farage, they talk about a nostalgia, but there's a version to loss and that can feel quite a negative version of Britishness as well. Now with Clarkson, what he's done is you've got the show and it's kind of, it is elegiac and sometimes it's kind of banal,

but it's also magnificent and positive and emotional. But the one thing he's got that neither the Danny Boyle nor the sort of Farage vision of Britishness has is that he it's got that ironic nature of Britishness, which is by the way, such a key part of Britishness, that kind of irony and the sort of humor, neither of those versions has it, which is, you know, not in any way to denigrate either of those versions.

It, it, they just don't have it to denigrate either of those versions. They just don't have it. So when he talked, James was talking about the sort of Notting Hill to Nottingham to coalition of people of the centre right. Now most politicians would kill for that sweep because people have become either sort of urban politicians or rural politicians. They're not able to be both, which like it or not, Clarkson is.

Yes, he is exactly right. I think it's very, very telling that at a farmer's march, he is asked to speak and not Farage. That tells you everything. Again, Farage in the world of politics, Farage has charisma. We've talked about this before. In the actual world, he doesn't. If you put Farage up with Jeremy Clarkson, you see who Farage is, which is a poor man's Jeremy Clarkson. Clarkson has a lot of what Boris has, which is they are journalists. They are able, on a six pence, to construct an argument. Whatever argument you want, ask me what you want to do,

I can do it, and I can do it in 800 words. I can make it funny, I can make it relatable. I can center myself in it. The difference, I think, between Clarkson and Boris Johnson is I think Clarkson knows that. I can centre myself in it. The difference I think between Clarkson and Boris Johnson is I think Clarkson knows that. I think Clarkson understands that. I think Clarkson understands that if you're a journalist you never have to really face the consequences of what you do. You can say whatever you want and people don't lose their jobs. You know, whereas Boris Johnson didn't understand that. Boris Johnson thought no I can do this and I can take the same energy

and I can take this into Westminster. So that's why I think that Clarkson wouldn't want to be Prime Minister because he wouldn't enjoy the consequences. Anytime he's been called out for his journalism and faced the consequences, I don't think he's enjoyed it particularly. He has taken positions and he's made mistakes and he's up, he's down and in many ways he's had a sort of politician's time of it to some extent, but he isn't tainted by what people hate, which is machine politics. So although he has had those things, he's not tainted by that. And that in some ways makes him a sort of credible kind of populist possibility. Yeah. If I was a British Steve Bannon, say, which listen, newsflash I'm not, then he would be my absolute perfect candidate,

because as you say he's absolutely, he's cross genders, he's cross ages, he's cross classes, there's something he does, he's got that plain speaking thing, truth to power type thing. So Victoria Derbyshire makes the point that you've actually said look I'm going to buy a farm because this is a way of avoiding inheritance, you literally said it. And, you know, Clarkson is saying, well, yes, now I'm going to put in the trust and this is typical BBC bias and what have you. And it's so hard, isn't it? Because Victoria Derbyshire has to ask that question because we live in a democracy and that's what journalists are supposed to do. And it's true and it needs to be pointed out. And, you know, there is a hypocrisy there. Clarkson is able, you can just say that's

typical BBC bias. And suddenly it's, you know, people don hypocrisy there. Clarkson is able, you can just say that's typical BBC bias and suddenly it's you know people don't seem to mind anymore. I think perhaps he regrets saying it's typical BBC bias, I think it was a knee-jerk reaction but equally his answer which is yeah then that balloon has popped immediately you know ten years ago it would be a gotcha, now it's not so as a journalist it's very hard when someone like Clarkson comes from outside politics to nail them to the wall for anything. I agree with that. Having said that I read what he wrote in the Sunday Times this weekend and was quite surprised that he wrote what he wrote. There was a sort of tinge

of regret to it all. He also said that the farmers had said to him after he'd done his speech, don't represent us anymore on this issue and I think he regarded the BBC interview as a sort of, you know, that he had been had. Whereas I actually hadn't from watching it and from being there, I didn't experience it as that. And I was quite surprised he felt the need to walk back a large amount of it, but he clearly did. And it was interesting, there was a bit where he was talking about Andy Wilman, the producer of Clarkson's Farm and long term producer of Clarkson was there and saying, I don't know, we sort of need an ending because they're obviously going to do an episode when he goes to the Farmers' March and that's

going to be part of it. And Andy Wilman was like, basically you've got to do the speech because otherwise we haven't really got an ending for this episode. And he sort of made it sound a bit like that. Then perhaps there is that sensitivity you were talking about earlier. So yeah, the really interesting thing is, as you say, this whole thing has come to a head because of the speech he made at the Farmers' March and suddenly this sort of coalition seems to come together. And in the article, it becomes apparent that the speech is the product of Andy Wilman,

the producer saying, I wonder if you could do a speech. Otherwise we haven't got an ending. Otherwise we haven't got an ending. And so of course, the natural thing is to say, oh, you know what, it was TV, it was artifice. But then you go, oh course, the natural thing is to say, oh, you know what? It was TV. It was artifice. But then you go, oh, no, but that's how you win elections. That's how you do it. Yeah, it's K-Fabe.

It's what Trump's done all the way through. Exactly. You've got this front man, Jeremy Clarkson, who does it, and then you've got someone like Andy Willman, who knows exactly what people want, how they want it. And he says, do a speech now in front of all the farmers. Listen, it's a brilliant way to make a television program program but I'll say it's also a brilliant way to become Prime Minister of a country. I would say that and you need your Andy Willman behind you. I don't think he would want to be Prime Minister, would

be my opinion, but I do think a celebrity could become Prime Minister so the question is if it weren't Clarkson who might it be? Martin Lewis? Well I was looking at the... Moneysavingexpert.com, I've got some views on this. I was looking at the list of, um, Britain's most popular celebrities on you gov, which is a really cool list. It's a really, really interesting place to be.

Uh, and then number one, it's David Attenborough. Okay. He's Britain's most popular celebrities. How many people recognize you minus Joe Biden? Yeah. Yeah. He's like, he's 18 months older than Joe Biden. Uh, the popularity is, is how many people recognize you minus. He's literally older than Joe Biden. Yeah, he's 18 months older than Joe Biden. The popularity is how many people recognise you minus how many people have a negative view of you and David Attenborough's sort of 92. And you go, it's got like about 500 names on this

list. It's really worth looking at as you get into the 400s. But other people in that top 10, Trevor McDonald's in the top 10, Stephen Fry's in that top 10. Number two on that list, number two on that entire list of every single celebrity there is, is Martin Lewis. Oh, right, okay. In terms of popularity. Everyone knows him,

and everyone who knows him likes him. Well, just for background, Martin Lewis, if you don't know him, which I'm sure you will, is monysavingexpert.com. He's found ways to help people through all sorts of things. During the early phases of the cost of living crisis, I have to say that he, you know, Rhys Mogg was business secretary, an energy secretary. You tell me what that guy did to help anybody. He never made a public statement to help any single person, okay? Martin Lewis did more than about three government ministers put together. Just tiny things I'm

thinking about, little things like, like you know did you know that your thermostats probably set to 74 and if you turn it down to 60 you're going to save 8% on your energy bills. Why isn't Rees Mogg saying that? Why is Martin Lewis telling me that? Okay so well I don't think Rees Mogg has ever touched his own thermostat. Obviously I don't think he has ever touched his own thermostat. And I know and that's a euphemism as well okay he just hasn't touched his own thermostat. Okay and I we're gonna do the Re Muggs next week by the way yeah we are sorry everyone just just warn him now if you want to take a week off we are okay because they're doing a reality show okay but everything as I

was talking to you know talking to James Kanigan story about this he's saying you know everything that Martin Lewis has done in his career so far it has been cost free he offers this sort of public good he's done really good people. He's tried to help, but in a way that he has not been tested. So whereas Clarkson has been tested, he's been through these various fires, as I said, and although he's not, you know, it's not machine politics, he nonetheless has been tested like a politician, and a lot of his negatives are already baked in. We don't know Martin Lewis's negatives, and by the way, there are them, because there are with every single human being in the world and I'm a big fan of Martin.

He's recognised by 96% of people in the country, Martin Lewis. Do you know what percentage of people who know him have a negative view of him? Tell me. 4%. Oh my god. That's pretty good going isn't it? Yeah but you have to take positions as a politician and a lot more that you know you've got to, we don't know what the negatives would be.

By the way, we also don't know if Martin would want to do this either. Exactly. Well, so you have two very different types of prime minister there. Clarkson would be very much more the sort of Trumpian, you know, make grand gestures, say grand things, you know, disrupt and then hope people can tidy up after you. Martin Lewis would be far more of a sort of a European Union technocrat, like someone who comes in and just said, should we just get the economy running right? Should we just make everybody 1% richer and better off without coming in with, you know,

and he is always assiduously avoided taking a political stance on anything, if you could avoid it. And there are ways and means of taking that into politics. You can have that as your narrative, which is I am not taking a political stance here. I'm going to come in and I'm going to try and make the country better off. And that's an interesting way to go about it. And he is someone who people would trust to do that. They are unhindered by the collective responsibility of being in the Labour Party or the Tory Party or one of the big political parties where you have to tow the party line all the time. If Martin Lewis and Jeremy Clarkson ran against each other, I might get our lovely friends at More In Common to ask their people who would win.

For all your entertainment polling this podcast. They've done for our Robert Hall show that More In Common have done. Oh my God, I love what they've done for that. Britain's favourite Christmas song and Christmas film. And then they've done it by political affiliation as well, which we'll do on the podcast after the live show. I'm going to get More and Common to ask who would win in a general election between Martin Lewis and Jeremy Clarkson.

Well, it would be Clarkson, I can tell you. Other names in that top 10, by the way. Claudia Winkleman is there. Oh. Wouldn't be interested. Mary Berry is there. It wouldn't be, not me wouldn't be interested. She wouldn't be interested. I can officially there, not me wouldn't be interested, she wouldn't be interested.

I can officially confirm Claudia would not be interested in that. Another person very, very high up the list, David Tennant. He's very high up the list, yeah. Like 13th most popular celebrity in Britain. Has he ever played a prime minister? He's played everything, so I'm surprised he hasn't played a prime minister.

No, do you know, I think he hasn't only because of Rory Kinnear, because I think legally Rory Kinnear always has to play the Prime Minister these days. Richard Madeley is 234th on the list. Oh, I thought you were saying he's in the top 10. I was about to say what? Carol Vorderman, 68th. There are very few people in that list you think would want a political career. Martin Lewis and Jeremy Clarkson about the only two. Jeremy Clarkson, by the way, on Britain's most popular Celebrities is 18th. Two places behind James May.

That's an election I'd like to see. May versus Hamme versus Clarkson. So I do think we will have a celebrity prime minister in the next 20 years, because I think the route is now available to do it, because I don't think you have to go via the Labour Party or Tory Party. And also if you wanted to go via those two,

I think you probably could. But you do have to have an the Labour Party or Tory Party and also if you wanted to go via those two I think you probably could but you do have to have an incredible heartland appeal. I don't think you're gonna get a firebrand from the right or a firebrand from the left sort of suddenly winning over the whole of Britain but we will find out if Martin Lewis or Jeremy Clarkson will win because it's an interesting part again. Yeah right I think we should have a break now but when we come back we're going to be talking about the Jaguar rebrand More cars! More cars! And also quizzes the new heroes of the schedules. We could almost call them Rolls Royces. Yeah, the Rolls Royces of our schedules.

A courtside legend is born The Raptor Chicken Nacho Poutine from McDonald's. Our world famous fries topped with seasoned chicken, gravy, stringy cheese curds, tortilla strips and drizzled with nacho cheese sauce. Get your claws on it. For a limited time only, at participating McDonald's restaurants in Ontario. Welcome back everybody with the shock news that Dermot O'Leary is now Prime Minister. Jaguar released a new advert this week and it's got more publicity than the most new adverts got, Marina. I know, we did Christmas ads last week, so not to turn us into the rest of the advertising,

but Jaguar has been that sort of one of those what we now call heritage British brands, you know, the Thai British racing green, the sort of one of those what we now call heritage British brands, you know, the E-Type British Racing Green, the sort of that font. None more British. None more British. Jaguar had to do something, they are being outsold by their stablemate Land Rover by something like six to one, right, and they're going full electric and they've got some new very very expensive cars that cars coming, so they have to do something, okay, they have to have to rebrand anyway what they have done is

release an ad the car they're going to unveil at some Miami Art Fair Miami Art Fair where all the cars are I would definitely do it that's where I remember that the first Ford Cortina yeah I think wasn't it on a big pedestal next to a Basquiat so they released an, if you haven't seen it, it has been setting the internet on fire and not in a good way. Can you set the internet on fire in a good way? I don't know. I mean, setting it on fire permanently would be good. That is good. Yeah, no one's found a way how to do that yet. Anyway, and I want to say that a lift arrives on a sort of pink planet. Out of it emerge several people who I, some of whom planet out of it emerge several people who I some of whom are sort of

deliberately looking non-binary some of them they're all wearing bright pink clothes yellow someone's got a mallet they're gonna smash some things there are no cause and they've changed the logo of the sort of the famous growler they call it the leaping the leaping Jaguar famous growler every time I've written these admin talking all week about growlers, I've just found it absolutely hilarious. But with respect to all advertisers, that's a rebrand. It's called the famous growler. The famous growler, yeah. And they've changed the logo and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, there's a tiny, tiny teaser image of their new concept car, which does sort of look from the corner of it quite extraordinary and amazing in that way that, you know, the Tesla truck looks like a child sort of drawing of futuristic car it's got that sort of

slight view we've only seen the sort of back rear end of it as it were again sorry that's the reality. All we've seen thus far well we haven't seen the famous trailer but we have seen the left rear end. Right as I say they do have to do something because they're in trouble and they say that they do have to do something because they're, they're, all cars are currently off sale. They're in trouble. Um, and they say that they're going full electric and that the car's going to cost more than £100,000 and they're only going to hold onto 15% of

their current customer base. Yeah. Well, I mean, are they going to hold onto 15%? It, it, the trouble with this advert is some people will say, I think it's great. It's brave. It's great, it's brave, it's this. It's not brave and original.

It just looks like a load of stuff. It could be an advert for, I don't know, Debenhams five years ago. It doesn't make any difference. They've said it's, but it should encapsulate fearless creativity. Yeah, they want a fire break. They want to renaissance. It's like the old world is dead and the new one is coming. It's like, you know you still have to have customers, right?

And you know that your primary business, sorry, car company is selling cars. Right. That is their primary business. And I have to say it's all these things take ages to do. This campaign will have been in percolating for like, I don't know, I don't want to say a year, maybe less than a year, but at least, you know, a long time. And the trouble is it just feels late. It feels like that era of a sort of woke capitalism.

We've reached the high watermark of it. You know, I am a structure-based cement firm. I must, I must put something on our socials about Black Lives Matter. As we've said before in this podcast, it's fine not to post. You saw it also in the wake of the Queen's death where you got all these like yoga leggings companies having to sort of tweet with black borders and Center-parks telling everyone to stay in their lodges and not come out on the day of the funeral and you just thought this is so mad You know you did at the tills in Morrison's being put on a low beep half-mast. Yeah, they are low beep

Yeah, they were just the noise was regarded as disrespectful. I was in Poundland Yeah, they were just the noise was regarded as disrespectful. I was in Poundland. Um, the Poundland have now got their Christmas tills and every time you buy something, it goes ho ho ho Merry Christmas. So it's annoying, but there's people working there and literally every single person who buys anything, it goes ho ho ho Merry Christmas. I think it's torture. I genuinely think genuinely think that's torture to the people who work there.

Now, can I put the counter view on this? So Jerry McGovern is the chief creative officer. He does the branding for Jaguar Land Rover. So he's done all the Land Rover branding, which has been unbelievably good and unbelievably profitable. So he absolutely knows his business. Uh, and a lot of people are going, but you're showing us clear until he wouldn't be able to afford your cars.

Uh, you're not showing us any cars, all this stuff. Now, William Lyons who invented Jaguar, his absolute key line was a copy of nothing, which is a great line, and they keep this copy nothing here, which I think is a very, very strong thing to have. Are you aware of this thing, the Ehrenberg-Bass rule? No, tell me. So Ehrenberg-Bass Institute, University of South Australia,

and it's the absolute sort of, they're the gurus for all marketers everywhere in the world. And they are the ones that came up with this, the 95-5 rule, which absolutely has kind of ruled advertising for the last five years or so. The 95-5 rule says, if you are selling a car, so if you're Jaguar, only 5% of the people who might buy your car at any given time are going to buy it because most people bought their car six months ago or a year ago or two years ago so then they're not in the market. 95% of people are not in the market for your car at the moment or ever drops. 5% of people are. So they

said stop spending your money trying to attract that 5%. Actually what you want to do is build a brand for the other 95% so that when they are ready to buy a car they remember you first and they will start looking to the specifics of your brand and that's when you start bringing out the short of it which is the here are the you know specifics of our car here's a picture of our car here's it driving up an Alpine pass and so this 595 or 95 5 rule which I think is is completely counterintuitive but makes absolute sense which is almost everyone you're advertising to is not going to buy your car in the next two weeks but almost everyone who will buy your car will do it in six months a year 80 months time so don't show a picture of

your car driving up an Alpine road now if you need to turn a brand around you just need to do something they've done it is going to do this at all let's talk about another advertising guru David Ogvy, and he goes further back and you know, he's a big, he's a big presence in Mad Men. He's clearly, um, part of the inspiration for John Draper. He's a fascinating guy. If you ever want to read his books on advertising, I mean, he, this is a guy who thinks a lot about the Roman Empire.

Let's put it that way and the Grange of Greeks and whatever, but he is very, very clear that advertising is persuading people to buy stuff. Okay. You work for a retailer. Lots of advertising is bad and actively harms products. Okay. And it's the idea that, the idea that, you know, some, all advertising is good. And just by having someone paying for it, you're doing something great for your

product. It's not at all true and it never has been. And just because he's from a long time ago, David Ogilvie, the techniques of sales remain the same. And one of his favorite copywriters once said, I've seen an advert for basically the same product made by different brands, in the same publication as it was at the time, basic style, layout, everything. And one of them sold 19 and a half times, not twice as much as the other, 19 and a half times as much as the other. And so what it is, it's the difference between one had the right appeal and one had the wrong

appeal. And it's one of those really basic things when you hear it, you think, yeah, no, that's just too simple. But it's actually, it is quite simple. If you're saying to me that this particular Jaguar Rebound is going to sell, which is its job, is to sell in 2026 when they come into the market, lots of hundred thousand plus vehicles. I will love to see it. I just listen. I have a thing where everyone is saying that something's wrong. A bit of me thinks, hold on a minute, especially when someone like Jerry McGovern has been

very successful otherwise. And I get what you're saying about David Ogilvie, 100%, but they're not selling Mars bars. They are selling an incredibly expensive car of which they don't have to sell very many is the truth You know, that's the business they're trying to get in now is the ultra high luxury We don't have to sell very many of these I mean listen instead of having car showrooms They're gonna be having like kind of art installations where you know

There's cordon bleur food alongside the cars and what-have-you it all depends on this car Which is gonna be unveiled at the Miami Art Fair. If that is an amazing car, if it does something extraordinary, if copy nothing, genuinely you look at it and go okay I see what you mean, then it could absolutely be a master stroke because suddenly you're positioning yourself somewhere where nobody else is. It could be a huge mistake, it feels like a mistake because it feels old-fashioned. I do think though if you're if you're sitting there thinking yeah but it's Jaguars and you're thinking of the Sweeney and you think of that that Jaguar disappeared a really really long time ago, that business

disappeared a long time ago, it's not like a great British business. You're not just making calls for Inspector Morse, you know, they're a different business these days. Now Richard, please talk to me about quizzes. Yeah so quizzes are sort of you know the last remaining workhorses of terrestrial television. They're the things really keeping it afloat, you know, apart from, you know, your Strictly's and I'm a Celeb's, these sort of big tent pole things. You know, in a world where almost every smaller show

has gone under. In a world. In a world. On Monday, so on Monday, just to give you like, ratings sort of standard bearer, Channel 4 got 700,000 was the highest rating on Channel 4 on Monday. In prime time. In prime time, yeah, across the whole day.

The following shows all got over 2 million. Pointless, University Challenge, Only Connect, Mastermind, House of Games, The Chase. That's six quizzes, all of them getting over 2 million, which is about three times the maximum thing on Channel four and often by the way on BBC to anything outside of quizzes on BBC to also that's that's the sort of ratings They're getting so ratings going down and down and down and you've got these shows which are getting really good ratings They're getting very high audience appreciation index people like to watch them They're not sort of like, you know, just kind of sitting there and you know chewing gum for the eyes

That's a great Father Ted joke where Father Dougal is watching TV and Ted goes, chewing gum for the eyes and Dougal goes, no thanks Ted. So these shows are getting good ratings. They are also unbelievably cheap in the context of how television works. So an episode of I'm a Celeb, something like that, some million pound an episode of I'm a celeb something like that It's a million pound an episode. Yeah, something like even the wheel would be four or five hundred thousand pound episodes Yeah, exactly huge, you know seven figures per episode for all of this is at least something like pointless I house of games only connect University challenge fifty grand an episode probably So you can do twenty episodes of that for the price of you know another prime time show. So you're getting these incredibly cheap shows

which are getting incredibly good ratings. They're rating like the Soaps, that's wild to me. I mean the story of the Soaps which we will definitely talk about in the future but the Soaps used to be by by far and away the biggest things on British TV and I'm talking about you know EastEnders and Coronation Street which was, and Eminels behind, now they're all sort of on parity. But they're rating the quiz shows. Yeah, there are weeks in which Only Connect outrates EastEnders. That is extraordinary. Which is, yeah, extraordinary. And also a show like Only Connect, so I've shown most of these quiz shows in fact, they are idiosyncratic, they have not been made by committee, you know, they're not, they're very

unusual shows that people come to feel very loyal to and it feels like a very unusual flavor and you get a very very very loyal audience who love to watch a quiz show, if you got a daily quiz show as well people just love it. The chase has been just for ITV has been such an extraordinary hit over the years and now plays in prime time for bigger ratings, but has just been enormous. Pointless has been on for 15 years now for the BBC and just absolutely delivers these solid numbers in a world where nothing delivers solid numbers, where everything is falling away.

So what happens? We know that terrestrial TV is on its way out and they rely more and more on these quizzes, the shows that people love. And the thing has always been these shows are working great for terrestrial because they have a slightly older audience profile than some other shows, but that is changing and suddenly a lot more people are watching these shows on streaming. So how's the games gets half a million every day on catch up only connects

half a million every day on catch up. People are working out on an older demographic is working out. They can watch things, not necessarily on terrestrial TV. So I would say that the smart side from the one in the shed to make it really clear, that's the side from the one that's in the schedule. These are just old episodes or, or, or, or watching later on on time delayed or something like that, but, but not just switching TV on and watching it with traditionally how a quiz audience would watch it.

So if you're a great quiz show producer, and we have many in this country, Tamara Gilder, Hugh Rycroft, Tom Blake, and Glenn Hugel, people like that, who are making these quizzes, not making an enormous amount of money off them. So if you're making pointless, you make good money because it's on for 15 years, it just keeps going. If you make the chase, you make good money, but not enormous amounts of money. You're not making a million pound an episode and making your money off that. Those people are starting to say, I don't understand why we're still doing this for

a terrestrial audience because I'm looking at two figures here, which is the cost per episode, which is very, very low. And there are 2 million people who want to watch this every day. And the one thing that new media has told us is if there are 2 million people who want to watch this every day. And the one thing that new media has told us is, if there are two million people who want to watch the thing that you're doing every day, you can make a huge amount of money out of that. And that is not currently what they're making out of terrestrial TV. And the one thing that stopped them is, yes, but our audience doesn't understand how to access that.

But Pointless started 15 years ago, and it now has an audience who do understand new media and do understand they can go on YouTube and do understand how they can go on streaming. So I think that these beautiful little gems in the schedule, which we're kind of going oh, at least we've still got those, at least this is a thing, at least we can rely on good old fashioned quiz shows where they're sort of slightly older demographic. I think people are starting to see this might be the new Wild West, might be the new Gold Rush.

So what do you think will happen? Well, I think that- People will obviously remove them from the terrestrial broadcasters and put them where? All of those legacy shows, I suspect, will stay where they are. Okay. Right, because why wouldn't you?

Yes, okay. Exactly, and they belong to the channels quite a bit, they've been backed by the channels forever and ever, but if you were coming up with a new one, if you had a simple new concept which you could do online and which was very interactive with people, and you had a talent who would happily go with you, then make your own. Make your own and get paid directly by advertisers. And put it where?

Put it on YouTube, you can put it on, you know, you can have it on Insta, you can have it on TikTok, all of those places. You know, there's lots of little formats that work for younger people, younger demographic on the streamers and quizzes is the next big gold rush, I think. They've always been these steady dependable things. But as I say, as all the other ratings go down and down and down, you start looking at these things again, you're still getting 2 million people every single day. Every single day, you're getting 2 million people looking at this and enjoying it, which is immensely valuable for the BBC and for ITV, not for Channel 4, so they don't have any hit quizzes, which is insane valuable for the BBC and for ITV, not for Channel 4 because they don't have any hit quizzes which is insane, but listen, I'm sure that's a different discussion.

But at some point you have to go, okay, that's worth an awful lot of money and the first person to crack quizzes, kind of an online version of a quiz, a streaming version of a quiz, that's where they're all going to go I think. So in one way I want to say this is a celebration for what these shows do which is crazy and mental but also just to say I suspect that it's an underdeveloped area. Because if your Netflix is hard to do because you don't have scheduled things, quizzes sort of work being scheduled in the same way you know we you know you wake up and... I'm pretty sure Netflix will have will spend a lot of money on scheduled quizzes sooner or later. Well, yeah, they, they, they, they, they, they eventually come round.

But, you know, quizzes can be habits, you know, we play Word or, you know, New York Times, huge amounts of their revenue come from the fact that they... Oh my God, that was the best buy ever. What, did they pay that guy like a million dollars or something? And everyone thought it was crazy. And you think, no, it's, it's, but it isn't because people like it. People like, in the same way we, we, we talked about Professor Alan Finlayson talking about, you have to understand that people are intelligent and are looking for interesting things. They're looking to be engaged. Quizzes do that.

No one has yet done the thing where they say, do you know what, I'm not going to take this quiz to the BBC. I'm not going to take this quiz to ITV. I'm actually going straight to a brand. I'm actually going straight to one of the streamers. I'm going to do this thing, which is an appointment of you each day where you tune in at whatever time. That appointment thing I think is very interesting because it is so much part of the warp and weft of people's actual day that they think I'm actually going to finish work and I'm

going to sit down and watch a quick, that's what I always do. And that's the thing that brings them back every day is because it's part of their timetable. Yeah, exactly. And that form of appointment to view is very interesting. And particularly with quizzes. You remember about 20 years ago when suddenly lots of the terrestrial channels looked at what they had in the morning, things like bargain hunt and were like, this is sort of massive, people really like it. It's kind of cult. The morning schedule kind of became the prime time

schedule. And that's what happened with a lot of these quizzes in some ways is that they started out as a sort of, I'm using the sarcastic air quotes because look how important they are, niche kind of tea time thing. And suddenly they are wall to wall and they've, they've got celebrity versions on Saturday night and they're huge. You've just, you've just given a lot of people lots of ideas. It's a numbers game and you know, back, back in the day when you could get 10 million for things, you know, a show that was getting you 2 million, you'd be like, no, but now that

everything's getting 700,000 and these shows are still getting two million, you suddenly go, what, two million? Well, that's a lot of people. I think we have to praise these things sometimes. I think we have to praise the amount of people who love quizzes, who love stretching their minds and the producers who make them. And, you know, they're not easy to make. You have to make something that people feel compelled to watch and join in with. But if you can do that, then why not make it for people just personally? Do you sometimes find yourself,

because you can't help yourself, I bet you can't help yourself doing this, thinking, how would I make that? How would I make a quiz work on TikTok? How would I? Of course. All the time. But the fascinating thing is,

every producer is thinking that now. Yeah. Whenever I talk to producers about quiz, and you know, five years ago they'd be saying, oh yeah, we've got a pilot for BBC or Channel 4, we've got an open thing for quiz commissions. And now none of them are. None of them are. They're all saying, you know, I talked to a couple of people this week about how much money Would I Lie To You, which I know is slightly different, Would I Lie To You and and how games are making on YouTube, right? Because things that are clippable and you know, they're making a fortune, so you're able to monetize the archive. But

it's a very short step from working out how much money you're making from that to going, why don't we just cut out the middleman and make something that we can do 500 episodes of that can run forever that we're monetizing instantly in a way that the channels can't do. Is in almost the last hurdle of it is the talent because in that same way that talent had to be persuaded kind of last that streaming was a great idea and you'd say to them yeah well you'll get we have to pay you more money up front because you're not going to have I don't know in terms of movies like three actual releases whatever it is but once they went over they thought oh I see yeah this works and they liked it Is it almost like all the producers are already there and all that you can yeah

The money people are there you just have to say to someone would you do a quiz on YouTube? And by the way, this is not slumming it. This is not going to at all be yeah, of course and weirdly It's not the town is the agents and so the agents are going no We want the prestige if I'm not going to take my client that but all talent now understands with you know podcast and with YouTube channels that they understand that they missed a boat and that's a lot of the younger generation are really, really monetizing what they do to an incredible degree. So actually the second you say now to any of them, would you like to do a TikTok series or a YouTube series? They go, yeah. And you go, oh, you won't get paid, but you'll get

paid for the advertising. They go, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I want to do. So all the barriers are gone. All the barriers are gone. And it's just, it's just a race to see, which is the first one that absolutely goes over the top. And, uh, and suddenly you realize, oh, so quiz was a multi-billion pound industry all along, which, you know, I think it probably is, but the ones that are on now are sticking around because they, they do great jobs for the channel. So it house of games that I make the BBC, just that now are sticking around because they they do great jobs for the channel say house of games that I

Make the BBC just they are so brilliant with it and the team is so brilliant and that show you just I'll keep making that For as long as terrestrial TV goes on all those shows the chase master. I know any connect They are all sticking around but I do think there's going to be this new generation of quiz Which is going to make some of these people are now absolutely slogging their guts out trying to you know Eek out the last bits of terrestrial TV and it's going to make some of these people are now absolutely slogging their guts out to try to, you know, eke out the last bits of terrestrial TV. And it's going to make some of them an awful lot of money. That is fascinating.

Well, listen, that is about us, I think, for today. But we will be back on Thursday for the questions and answers episode. Please do send them in to the rest is entertainment at gmail.com. We covered a lot there, didn't we? We did. And so next week, I'm going to find the polling of who would win in a general election between Jeremy Clonkson and Martin Lewis. Yeah. Is that, is that clickbait?

I know who will win in the polling, but in the actual general election, I know who will win and it's a different answer. Yeah. Well then you, well, I want to say it now so that when Martin Lewis is going to be on top, I'm going to be able to say to you, yeah, he's not going to win in the general election. I mean, that feels like moving the goalposts. Why don't you run? We would be a failed state within six months. And also I wouldn't win.

See you on Thursday. See you on Thursday. Ooh, Sunwing launched their Black Friday deals early. Nah, you gotta wait until the last day. That's when the real deals drop. I beg to differ. I'm a Sunwing financial advisor. You want more from your vacation, right? That's easy. Book a Sunwing Financial Advisor. You want more from your vacation, right? That's easy.

Book a Sunwing vacation. With these Black Friday deals, you'll be beachin' in no time. Hmm. Actually, these Sunwing Black Friday deals make so much financial sense. Book with your local travel advisor or at Sunwing.ca.